Raising the Minimum Wage

[Stoop Dawg]

While I generally consider Kurt Hochenauer (http://www.okiefunk.com/) to be a Bush-hating buffoon, I don't really see the down side of raising the minimum wage a couple of dollars over the next two years.

Link:

http://www.okgazette.com/news/templates/commentary.asp?articleid=515&zoneid=6"

I'd much rather give more money to those who actually work than plow it into welfare.

Thoughts?

[dolemitesooner]

I want more money? I don't use welfare. Am I ok under the Stoopdawg plan

[yermom]

you don't make minimum wage either though

[toast]

I know all of the osu graduates are for it.

[Penguin]

MY GOD! YOU WILL PUT EVERY MOM AND POP SHOP OUT OF BUSINESS! OUR ECONOMY WILL NEVER RECOVER!!!!!!11!1!!

[dolemitesooner]

you don't make minimum wage either though
but wouldnt every ones wage go up?

[yermom]

****, i'm pretty sure mine won't

[Stoop Dawg]

I guess my question is, are there jobs that are subject to minimum wage laws that can legitimately only pay $5.15/hr?

I'm 100% against "steal from the rich (tax) and give to the poor", but I'm also 100% for "give money to the people who make the company successful". We need to get back to the place where it's actually better to have a job than not have a job.

[dolemitesooner]

I thinkwe need to get back to the time when my bitches that worked the corner didnt bitch about me getting 50% off the top now they are saying that they half to pay for rent and ****.

[Osce0la]

I thinkwe need to get back to the time when my bitches that worked the corner didnt bitch about me getting 50% off the top now they are saying that they half to pay for rent and ****.
Punch em in the mouth and tell em Doleo doesn't play that kind of bull****

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

Will just promote more illegal hiring ;)

[StoopTroup]

Under my plan everyone will get one basic wage.

The people will all be treated fairly.

There will be certain items that will not be available to many parts of the population until my Staff has updated me on the basic needs of the workers.

Until the review is finished I will keep everything to myself so that the people will not be affected adversely.

http://images.scotsman.com/2005/12/20/2012stalinb.jpg

[BigRedJed]

Well considering the price of services, hamburgers and everything else will all be bumped proportionately to offset the increased labor costs, and those a few dollars above minimum and up won't automatically get increases, I'm guessing it will actually REDUCE the average American's spending power. Wait a minute. I'm NOT guessing. I know it will.

The only party that will truly see a pay raise out of the deal would be the governments (state, local, federal), that charge income tax to those who receive the pay raises, and sales tax on the items that will invariably become more expensive.

Of course, that might be one motivation for those in government to want to see it passed...

[mdklatt]

I don't really see the down side of raising the minimum wage a couple of dollars over the next two years.

Inflation. Minimum wage workers getting their hours cut or losing their jobs altogether, at least temporarily. I'd like to know which jobs actually pay minimum wage right now.

[Stoop Dawg]

Well considering the price of services, hamburgers and everything else will all be bumped proportionately to offset the increased labor costs, and those a few dollars above minimum and up won't automatically get increases, I'm guessing it will actually REDUCE the average American's spending power. Wait a minute. I'm NOT guessing. I know it will.

Increasing the spending power of the lower-income workers necessarily means reducing the spending power of the high-income workers. Would you rather pay out money in wages or in taxes? If you pay in wages, you get to pick who gets it. If you pay in taxes, the govt picks who gets it.

The other side of the coin you've presented is that if we lower the minimum wage then prices will go down and the spending power of the "average" american will go up. Sounds great ..... unless you're one of the minimum wage workers.

[Stoop Dawg]

Minimum wage workers getting their hours cut or losing their jobs altogether, at least temporarily.

I'm thinking most companies already operate on as few employees as possible.


I'd like to know which jobs actually pay minimum wage right now.

Me too.

[BigRedJed]

...Sounds great ..... unless you're one of the minimum wage workers.
...whose spending power would also go up...

[BigRedJed]

And no, I'm not advocating lowering the minimum wage.

But seriously, the overall tax burden would go up for EVERYONE, including the minimum wage workers who would pay more in income tax and sales tax. And I'm not bitching about reduced spending power for millionaires. I'm saying the guy who makes nine bucks an hour will have much less buying power than he did before. It effectively relegates even more people to the status of minimum wage workers.

Like I said, the only party that truly gets a pay raise in the scenario is the government...

[BigRedJed]

Oh, and besides paying more income tax and sales tax, the minimum wage workers would pay more for hamburgers and items at the dollar store. So their extra pay would pretty much be negated.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

Can I get one more?

[mdklatt]

I'm thinking most companies already operate on as few employees as possible.



There is such a thing as fewer employees than possible, but that's only a short term solution. Sooner or later prices will go up and business will drop off--more schedule cut backs. Eventually the minimum wage increase will trickle upwards throughout the economy and a new equilibrium will be reached. Then everybody is back to where they started in terms of spending power, so what's the point?

[StoopTroup]

http://www.house.gov/jec/rpt-may.gif


The Case Against a Higher Minimum Wage
The voices clamoring for a minimum wage hike are getting ever louder. Proponents argue that the current wage level does not provide an adequate incentive for work. Also, they argue that an increase in the minimum wage will have only a very minor impact on jobs. These arguments are not grounded in fact. The impact of raising the minimum wage has been studied since its inception. All credible research has come to the same conclusion: raising the minimum wage hurts the poor. It takes away jobs, keeps people on welfare, and encourages high-school students to drop out. Policy makers should be clear on the consequence of higher minimum wages.

http://www.house.gov/jec/cost-gov/regs/minimum/against/against.htm

[mdklatt]

http://www.house.gov/jec/cost-gov/regs/minimum/against/against.htm

Interesting:


Only 2.8 percent of workers earning less than $5.15 are single parents. Only 1.2 percent of all minimum wage workers were adult heads of households with incomes less than $10,000. Fifty-seven percent of minimum wage workers are single individuals, many of them living with their parents.


One of my biggest beefs with the minimum wage is the claim that minimum wage workers need to be able to support a family. Bull****. There is no reason to mandate that that high school kids on a summer job, for example, earn enough money to support a family. If you're stuck in a minimum wage job, don't have kids.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

Well I worked at Hastings at one time and we got 6.00, so I have no clue who is actually paying 5.15.

[Stoop Dawg]

There is such a thing as fewer employees than possible, but that's only a short term solution. Sooner or later prices will go up and business will drop off--more schedule cut backs. Eventually the minimum wage increase will trickle upwards throughout the economy and a new equilibrium will be reached. Then everybody is back to where they started in terms of spending power, so what's the point?

If your logic is sound, then the opposite is also true. Lowering minimum wage (or abolishing it altogether) will have no negative impact. Prices will go down and an equilibrium will be reached. The poor will actually get richer by lowering their wages. Hooray!

Seriously, though. To me, the point is how best to "redistribute" wealth. There are poor people in America. There just are. I suppose one option is to ignore them, but that seems like it would simply lead to more crime. The other option is to try to get some cash coming their way. Now, some people think we should just tax the hell out of "rich" people and GIVE money to the poor. I don't like that idea. Rich people work for their money, so should "poor" people.

But there's the rub. Do "rich" people really work for their money? Or are they getting "rich" off the work of others?

I agree that raising the minimum wage will put a squeeze on companies. Will those companies choose to raise prices to cover the increased cost of labor? Maybe. Or will those companies choose to lower the salaries of the top wage earners to help cut costs? Maybe. It seems that the salaries of the top wage earners is generally tied to the performance of the company. If you raise the minimum wage, they have to either increase prices (which probably decreases sales) or cut the fat. I doubt that the low end wage earners are "the fat".

Stoop Troop's link looks interesting. I'll give it a gander....

[StoopTroup]

Minimum Wage should be paid out in pesos.

[OUinFLA]

Ok, here's the deal from my perspective.
I have 12 employees. None of them work for minimum wage.
But some of them are close.

I hire outside laborers and start them at $6.50. Mosty they are doing unskilled labor such as mowing and cleanup, but in my business, I need about two full time employees doing this work. There is hardly any sense in training them to work at a higher level, as my job positions are rather full with 6 employees who have been with me for over 10 years, and two that are well trained and managerial types.

So, how does the minimum wage effect me? If the minimum gets bumped by lets say $2 and hour, all employee levels in my business start comparing what they do for my company with what they could make working in air conditioned comfort at McD's and they want more money.

Simple you say, raise the price of your product!
Doesnt exactly work that way for every business. McDonalds, Burger King and Seven-11 can easily raise their prices due to the fact that they all have to deal with the same labor costs and they supply a product that cant be brought in from somewhere else cheaper.

Enter my product.............it can be brought in from SE Asia cheaper. I am actually competing with labor costs that are the equavalent of $2 a day.

The only way I am able to compete is because of the cost of freight to get the product to the US. In fact, it is getting difficult to compete with imports in areas with direct access from SE Asia/China air freight locations, LA, Chicago, and New York.

So, even though most businesses might be able to bump their product sale to offset the wage increases, those of us in competition with SE Asia/China to provide a marketable product are not able to do that.

In fact, in my industry, the price of the product has actually gone down over the past 15 years and the reason is the import prices. I have owned my business for 27 years, it was in operation for 20 years before that. I have records from the previous owner where I checked his prices on a particuar product that he got a whopping 28 cents for. I now sell the same product for 14 cents. His total labor cost for 15 employees for a week didnt amount the labor cost I now pay my highest paid employee.

How do we stay in business over the years with this number crunching? My predicessor was satisfied to raise 5-10K items in one location, I now have the technology to raise 40-60K in the same environment.

I asume you are now somewhat curious as to what I raise that could deal with such inverse growth problems.
I produce ornamental fish, you know, what fills your aquariums.
It is an industry that is mostly concentrated in the Tampa area of the US. At least the production part of the industry.
25 years ago there were over 15K pet stores in the US. 90% of the fish raised in the US were raised in my area by as many as 350 independent farmers.

Now, there are less than 175 of us left, most have gotten larger over the years, all have gotten more efficient. 25 years ago, 25% of the tropical fish sold in the US pet market came from SE Asia. Now over 70% of the fish sold in pet stores come from out of the country. The price we as producers receive for our product has declined by over 50%. When I try to raise prices, my bigger customers remind me to rethink my strategy as they can import the items for less than what I want to raise the prices to.

Adding to the difficulty is that of those 15K independent pet stores that existed 20 or so years ago, there are now less than 6000 independents plus all the mega stores that kinda pushed the Mom and Pops out of business. The mega retailers have a buying power that has been unmatchable for most Mom and Pop stores. Couple that buying power with the availability of imported product, and we are literally cutting our prices to the minimum just to keep the customers.

In an industry where production is very labor intensive such as mine, higher minimum wages lead to an eventual loss of jobs here in the US.

The outlook for my industry is still postive. The reason is not labor friendly. Tremendous advances in production technology over the past decade has led to a complete change in the way we produce the product.

I currently have a 25 acre facility with over 200 outdoor pools ranging from 20K gallons to 60K gallons where I am able to produce about 6 million fish per year. I presently have that property on the market and hopefully soon a developer will purchase it. I still intend to stay in the business but can actually duplicate my facilities on a 5 acre or less facility using above ground pools similar to swimming pools coupled with high tech recirculating filter systems with automatic feeding systems. I can raise as many fish in a 3500 gal above ground pool with this technology as I can raise in a 60K gallon outdoor pond.

The result of this new technology, not neglecting the initial cost factor is that I can stay at the same level of business with less than 8 employees. In fact I can probably get by with 6.

Final result? I will downsize by half my employee count. Keeping only the better ones and able to pay them the extra I save by letting 6 hard working people go.

Back to the minimum wage. I have found over the past 25+ years that I could have always found someone to work at the menial tasks that I needed to keep my place up that would have been happy to work for less than minimum wage. Granted they would be leaving sometime soon, but they would have been earning something during that time, and someone else would be coming along right behind them wanting their job.

I never paid anyone under the table and am too old to start now. But I never had a shortage of applicants walking in wanting "any" work they could get.

I dont support raising the minimum wage. It will hurt more small businesses than it will help IMO.

[Stoop Dawg]

http://www.house.gov/jec/rpt-may.gif



http://www.house.gov/jec/cost-gov/regs/minimum/against/against.htm

I don't understand this part:


Mothers on welfare in states that raised their minimum wage remained on welfare 44 percent longer than mothers on welfare in states where it was not raised. The reason for this result is that raising the minimum wage induces some people to enter the labor market who would not apply if not for the higher level. With a larger labor market, employers choose higher-skilled applicants. Thus, raising the minimum wage hurts low-skilled workers in two ways. First, there are fewer jobs available. Second, with a larger pool of applicants, competition is stiffer. Low-skilled workers have a more difficult time getting those job skills that are crucial to economic well-being.


It certainly concerns me that raising the minimum wage would induce people to stay on welfare! I would hope for the exact opposite. The only way I can see the above comment being true is that there are people out there who don't work and don't need to work (spouses of people with higher paying jobs?) that would suddenly enter the job market if the minimum wage were raised. Is that what the study is suggesting?


Another side effect of raising the minimum wage is that it increases the number of high-school students who drop out. [9] Some of these students do not find employment. Another group of students are part of those applicants that compete jobs away from welfare recipients. Dropping out of school is very destructive. High school drop-outs have a very difficult time improving their well-being.

I didn't look at their data, but I don't see the correlation between minimum wage and high school drop-outs. The minimum wage goes up so I'd rather take a minimum wage job than finish high school?

[mdklatt]

If your logic is sound, then the opposite is also true. Lowering minimum wage (or abolishing it altogether) will have no negative impact. Prices will go down and an equilibrium will be reached. The poor will actually get richer by lowering their wages. Hooray!

They woudln't get richer, their spending power would be the same in the new equilibrium.



To me, the point is how best to "redistribute" wealth. Raising the minimum wage seems like a temporary redistribution at best since higher wages will inevitably lead to higher prices for everything.



I agree that raising the minimum wage will put a squeeze on companies. Will those companies choose to raise prices to cover the increased cost of labor?


Definitely. Or get rid of labor.


Or will those companies choose to lower the salaries of the top wage earners to help cut costs?

Ha ha ha! Do you think GM executives have been taking pay cuts lately?



Stoop Troop's link looks interesting. I'll give it a gander....

Here's what the other side has to say: http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issueguides_minwage_minwage

[Penguin]

We're doomed. I have no idea how this country has survived after so many minimum wage increases.

[OklahomaTuba]

Woo Hoo, that will really help the highschoolers working at Mcdonalds. Beyond that, all it does is raise prices.

And since incomes are raising and there is less poverty than just a few years ago, raising it would be stupid, unless of course you just want to make the kiddos flipping burgers happy.

[OklahomaTuba]

Seriously, though. To me, the point is how best to "redistribute" wealth.
Wow. Someone who is in favor of income redistribution?? Damn.



There are poor people in America. There just are.
And there are many more rich and middle class people in America than poor people, who buy stuff and and work much much harder than the poor do. The poor in this country have EVERYTHING. Thats why we have so many damn immigrants flooding into this place.

[Half a Hundred]

Woo Hoo, that will really help the highschoolers working at Mcdonalds.

What's wrong with that? I'm pretty sure all of us were that once.

[OklahomaTuba]

What's wrong with that? I'm pretty sure all of us were that once.
I know I was. I know I would have been all about getting a pay raise. I was actually feeding myself with the money I made, so I coulda really used it.

[handcrafted]

If the minimum wage law had never passed in the first place, then bread would still be $.025 a loaf and milk would still be $.10 a gallon.

The market should set the value of all jobs. The "minimum wage" law is nothing but a vehicle for socialism.

[Scott D]

Woo Hoo, that will really help the highschoolers working at Mcdonalds. Beyond that, all it does is raise prices.

And since incomes are raising and there is less poverty than just a few years ago, raising it would be stupid, unless of course you just want to make the kiddos flipping burgers happy.

except burger flippers generally tend to get paid $2-3 more than minimum wage. The flip side to that is that the burger companies tend to tell management to send people home the moment it gets slow to keep wages down.

Raising minimum wage doesn't really solve anything. The government should be allowing the marketplace to fluxuate minimum wage on their own. For example, if you have say a Rite Aid and on the opposite corner a CVS opens, and they are hiring in at about $1.50 more than what you are hiring in at over at your Rite Aid. It becomes a business decision as to whether or not there is the possibility of your staff (both good and bad, usually more good/loyal) quitting to go work at the new place across the way that is paying better, and if that is a definitive risk, then it's a pretty obvious thing that you'll likely need to increase wages to maintain the good employees.

One place I worked we actually raised the wages of about 6 of 10 employees because the 4 whom didn't get the raises were the ones who spent the most time bitching and moaning about how they were going to quit and go to the other place. Two of them did in fact quit, and one of those two ended up crawling back to try and get a job with us again.

What the government should be doing with this scenario is spending this effort looking into finding a better balance for expenses versus income. And looking into breaking up glorified loan sharking...er credit card companies ;)

[handcrafted]

What the government should be doing with this scenario is spending this effort looking into finding a better balance for expenses versus income. And looking into breaking up glorified loan sharking...er credit card companies ;)

Mr. ScottD, I must say with absolute conviction....

:les:WORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Translation: Ed Zachary!!!!

[OklahomaTuba]

Word man.

Personal debt is a killer. Modern day slavery!

Personal finance should be a required class in all highschools.

I look forward to the day when I have more assets than liabilities. I will truly feel rich that day.

[Penguin]

I look forward to the day when I have more assets than liabilities. I will truly feel rich that day.


File Chapter 7 first thing Monday and feel rich right away! ;)

[MamaMia]

Without some kind of additional help, nobody can possibly make a comfortable living on minimum wage.

I fully understand that we need structure; a government body to represent our best interests. Of course we need officials on the county, state and federal levels to set the budgets and make decisions on how our tax dollars are spent. Its a shame however that politicians have wasted so much of our money and many have used it for their own personal gain.

So many tax dollars, that should have been put in the paychecks of county, state and federal employees who provide various services for the public, have been squandered by crooked politicians. Some of those employees actually qualify for food stamps I have been told, including members of our own military.

Then there are the millions of hard working small business owners, like me and husband who pay 2 or 3 times more in taxes, to keep the government rolling, than they are able to pay their employees, who keep their businesses rolling. I do not believe thats what our forefathers had in mind.

[Jerk]

While I generally consider Kurt Hochenauer (http://www.okiefunk.com/) to be a Bush-hating buffoon, I don't really see the down side of raising the minimum wage a couple of dollars over the next two years.

Link:

http://www.okgazette.com/news/templates/commentary.asp?articleid=515&zoneid=6"

I'd much rather give more money to those who actually work than plow it into welfare.

Thoughts?

I just read that guy's webpage and threw-up in my mouth a little.

Oklahoma ain't North Korea or Cuba, buddy.

[Jerk]

These are the kind of d!ckwads who support that site:

Sad Days Ahead
You ain't seen nothing yet, folks. We will be deluged with Corporatism, Theocracy and hypocrisy. Tort reform is on its way. Closing the courthouse doors to the common people is here. Massive tax cuts, ten commandment monuments and little Amerikan flags flying everywhere. Remember, there must be a reason they had to give most of the land in Oklahoma away. Its because we are the anus of Amerika. Get out while you can. Let the bible toting, gay bashing, SUV driving pukes choke on their own record level consumer debt. When China and Russia come calling to cash in the bonds that our wonderful Federal Reserve sold them, it will be game over anyway. Have a nice day.

[OklahomaTuba]

Wow.

Amazing that nuts like that guy exist. His life must be a really sad thing to behold.

[Scott D]

I agree, the ten commandment monument comment was over the top ;)

and didn't anyone tell him there are 3 k's in Amerikkka? :D

[OklahomaTuba]

And no mention of Bushhitler or the Neokkkons either.

Dudes gotta get this talking points updated from Howard Dean. ;)

[Scott D]

heh....or have Madeline Albright pop his zit of a head with her monster thighs ;)

[SCOUT]

I think the minimum wage is sad political tool. In this thread alone we have seen proponents of redistribution of wealth all the way to well... Madeline Albright's thighs (shudder).

It is a generally accepted fact that most people don't earn minimum wage, even in the lower skilled jobs. The reason they don't is because the free market will bear a higher wage than that. Seems like a pretty good solution to me.

However, every once in a while some politician will trot out this tired horse and try to make political hay. They will wail about the poor families trying to make in on $5.15 an hour. They will leave out the fact that I (and people like me) made $6.00 an hour at Burger King in 1989.

If someone is trying to lead a family while working for minimum wage, a change needs to be made. The change is in that person's employer, not the federally mandated minimum wage.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

minimum wage increases have been normally sponsored by unions who have workers whose contract is pegged to X*minimum wage. in today's times, those clauses have went the way of the dodo and you don't hear clamoring anymore for increases as it would adversely affect their pay.

as for lowering the minimum wage, in theory it would work but in reality corporate greed would lead to lowering wages while keeping prices the same. if you need an example, look no further than our oil companies. do you think they would ever think about lowering their margins to help the public?

the minimum wage in washington is $8+ an hour. the effects are more than humorous as they sell new cars for $5000 OVER THE MULRONEY! i bought my last car in oklahoma...

[jacru]

look no further than our oil companies. do you think they would ever think about lowering their margins to help the public?...
Greed? Look no further than our GOVERNMENT. do you think they would ever think about lowering FUEL TAXES to help the public? The Government makes more per gallon of gas than the oil companies do.

[olevetonahill]

Ok, here's the deal from my perspective.
I have 12 employees. None of them work for minimum wage.
But some of them are close.

I hire outside laborers and start them at $6.50. Mosty they are doing unskilled labor such as mowing and cleanup, but in my business, I need about two full time employees doing this work. There is hardly any sense in training them to work at a higher level, as my job positions are rather full with 6 employees who have been with me for over 10 years, and two that are well trained and managerial types.

So, how does the minimum wage effect me? If the minimum gets bumped by lets say $2 and hour, all employee levels in my business start comparing what they do for my company with what they could make working in air conditioned comfort at McD's and they want more money.

Simple you say, raise the price of your product!
Doesnt exactly work that way for every business. McDonalds, Burger King and Seven-11 can easily raise their prices due to the fact that they all have to deal with the same labor costs and they supply a product that cant be brought in from somewhere else cheaper.

Enter my product.............it can be brought in from SE Asia cheaper. I am actually competing with labor costs that are the equavalent of $2 a day.

The only way I am able to compete is because of the cost of freight to get the product to the US. In fact, it is getting difficult to compete with imports in areas with direct access from SE Asia/China air freight locations, LA, Chicago, and New York.

So, even though most businesses might be able to bump their product sale to offset the wage increases, those of us in competition with SE Asia/China to provide a marketable product are not able to do that.

In fact, in my industry, the price of the product has actually gone down over the past 15 years and the reason is the import prices. I have owned my business for 27 years, it was in operation for 20 years before that. I have records from the previous owner where I checked his prices on a particuar product that he got a whopping 28 cents for. I now sell the same product for 14 cents. His total labor cost for 15 employees for a week didnt amount the labor cost I now pay my highest paid employee.

How do we stay in business over the years with this number crunching? My predicessor was satisfied to raise 5-10K items in one location, I now have the technology to raise 40-60K in the same environment.

I asume you are now somewhat curious as to what I raise that could deal with such inverse growth problems.
I produce ornamental fish, you know, what fills your aquariums.
It is an industry that is mostly concentrated in the Tampa area of the US. At least the production part of the industry.
25 years ago there were over 15K pet stores in the US. 90% of the fish raised in the US were raised in my area by as many as 350 independent farmers.

Now, there are less than 175 of us left, most have gotten larger over the years, all have gotten more efficient. 25 years ago, 25% of the tropical fish sold in the US pet market came from SE Asia. Now over 70% of the fish sold in pet stores come from out of the country. The price we as producers receive for our product has declined by over 50%. When I try to raise prices, my bigger customers remind me to rethink my strategy as they can import the items for less than what I want to raise the prices to.

Adding to the difficulty is that of those 15K independent pet stores that existed 20 or so years ago, there are now less than 6000 independents plus all the mega stores that kinda pushed the Mom and Pops out of business. The mega retailers have a buying power that has been unmatchable for most Mom and Pop stores. Couple that buying power with the availability of imported product, and we are literally cutting our prices to the minimum just to keep the customers.

In an industry where production is very labor intensive such as mine, higher minimum wages lead to an eventual loss of jobs here in the US.

The outlook for my industry is still postive. The reason is not labor friendly. Tremendous advances in production technology over the past decade has led to a complete change in the way we produce the product.

I currently have a 25 acre facility with over 200 outdoor pools ranging from 20K gallons to 60K gallons where I am able to produce about 6 million fish per year. I presently have that property on the market and hopefully soon a developer will purchase it. I still intend to stay in the business but can actually duplicate my facilities on a 5 acre or less facility using above ground pools similar to swimming pools coupled with high tech recirculating filter systems with automatic feeding systems. I can raise as many fish in a 3500 gal above ground pool with this technology as I can raise in a 60K gallon outdoor pond.

The result of this new technology, not neglecting the initial cost factor is that I can stay at the same level of business with less than 8 employees. In fact I can probably get by with 6.

Final result? I will downsize by half my employee count. Keeping only the better ones and able to pay them the extra I save by letting 6 hard working people go.

Back to the minimum wage. I have found over the past 25+ years that I could have always found someone to work at the menial tasks that I needed to keep my place up that would have been happy to work for less than minimum wage. Granted they would be leaving sometime soon, but they would have been earning something during that time, and someone else would be coming along right behind them wanting their job.

I never paid anyone under the table and am too old to start now. But I never had a shortage of applicants walking in wanting "any" work they could get.

I dont support raising the minimum wage. It will hurt more small businesses than it will help IMO.

And a big AMEN

[olevetonahill]

Ok im gonna weigh in on this .
Minimum wage is a tranquilizer for the poor , IE the young and inexperienced . I have a young friend (16) who has been working since last monday as a brickllayers helper. his hrly wage ? 9 bucks an hr .
A workmen is worthy of his hire . Ive yet to see anyone with any ability or smarts work for MW . If they have the Common sense to do a job they will make more than minumum . its that simple

[walkoffsooner]

You will never know what minimum wage workers want.They have no phones no gas no chance.These current prices are driving them to live with other family members. Most hate bush and they never heard of right wing or left they just know they are broke as hell.

[Jerk]

.These current prices are driving them to live with other family members.

Yep. It's hard to move out of the house when you're 16 years old, going to school, and sacking groceries at your first job. It was for me, anyway.

[soonerjoker]

keep in mind, MW workers pay no Federal income tax.

to get above MW, one must work harder, not look to feds for a raise.

[Stoop Dawg]

Good comments. I hadn't considered it's effect on companies whose main competition is imports. My only thought was that raising the wages of lower-skilled workers is better than raising welfare benefits. I still wonder if it isn't an idealistic dream that people will really get paid their true worth. In many industries it's the front-line workers who make or break a company, and yet they are typically the lowest paid.


Wow. Someone who is in favor of income redistribution?? Damn.

Yes, but not all willy-nilly nor government sponsered. Don't take "distribution of wealth" to mean simply taking money from the rich and just GIVING it to the poor. I'm 100% against that. I do, however, think it's a good idea to ensure that people who actually work for a living earn a decent wage for doing it. For example, while it may be true that the CEO of a major corporation is "more important" than an individual front-line worker, is he really 1 million times "more important"? Is s/he really working 1 million times harder, or making decisions that deserve 1 million times more money? Or, is it possible that s/he is earning additional profits (over and above the value of his/her individual contribution) off the hard work of the front-line workers? And yes, I realize that the analysis of such a situation is purely subjective. I'm not proposing a solution, I'm only speculating about a potential "problem". What's to keep one person from getting rich off the work of others?


I think there are two main problems:

1. There are more people that need jobs than there are jobs. In this scenario, simply letting market forces determine wages doesn't work. Not only are the people who don't have jobs poor, so are many of the people that do have jobs!

2. Government benefits for the unemployed sometimes outweigh the benefits of actually having a job. If someone is satisfied with the standard of living afforded by government assistance, how do you motivate them to get off it? While I would love to simply abolish welfare, I'm not sure that is really an option. I'm not sure we can simply let people die in the street. Actually, those people would probably take action before they died in the street, leading to a serious increase in crime. No, I don't think that would work out at all.

[Stoop Dawg]

to get above MW, one must work harder, not look to feds for a raise.

I want to live in your world. ;)

[Stoop Dawg]

Ive yet to see anyone with any ability or smarts work for MW . If they have the Common sense to do a job they will make more than minumum . its that simple

So what do we do with all the people who lack ability and/or smarts?

[Stoop Dawg]

It is a generally accepted fact that most people don't earn minimum wage, even in the lower skilled jobs. The reason they don't is because the free market will bear a higher wage than that. Seems like a pretty good solution to me.

This could also be the perfect argument that minimum wage is too low. People making above the current minimum wage are still below the poverty line. The market bears a higher wage, but is that wage "high enough"? That's the question.

[Stoop Dawg]

I just read that guy's webpage and threw-up in my mouth a little.

Oklahoma ain't North Korea or Cuba, buddy.

I thought you guys might like that site. I posted several comments before he got tired of hearing differing opinions and started requiring approval of comments. Talk about blatant hypocricy.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

IDJUT!

[SCOUT]

This could also be the perfect argument that minimum wage is too low. People making above the current minimum wage are still below the poverty line. The market bears a higher wage, but is that wage "high enough"? That's the question.

We agree on the question we disagree on the solution. I don't think it is the place of government to determine the prevailing wage.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Greed? Look no further than our GOVERNMENT. do you think they would ever think about lowering FUEL TAXES to help the public? The Government makes more per gallon of gas than the oil companies do.

the government makes a static amount on each gallon of gas. their % decreases as the price goes up. the impact of government taxes wasn't a problem before the price of oil went up. however, oil companies make a % on each gallon of gas, so as prices go up, they make more net cents per gallon. the corporate greed comes from the fear that if they lower their profit margins, they will never be able to move them up if oil every goes down again (which it won't with the dragon buying up every oil company on the planet).

[soonerjoker]

stoop dawg

do you not think a person should try to elevate themselves from above MW level. in theory, everybody starts @ bottom & works their way up. don't
they ??
"american dream" !!!

[Jerk]

the government makes a static amount on each gallon of gas. their % decreases as the price goes up. the impact of government taxes wasn't a problem before the price of oil went up. however, oil companies make a % on each gallon of gas, so as prices go up, they make more net cents per gallon. the corporate greed comes from the fear that if they lower their profit margins, they will never be able to move them up if oil every goes down again (which it won't with the dragon buying up every oil company on the planet).


Yes, we're talking about 9 cents profit per gallon for Big Evil Oil versus something like 50 cents per gallon taxed by .gov and YOU KNOW the government is alot more efficient with all of that $$$ (or, at least, at finding ways of spending it)

[walkoffsooner]

Yep. It's hard to move out of the house when you're 16 years old, going to school, and sacking groceries at your first job. It was for me, anyway.

You need to get out more often.Or open your eyes

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Silly-*ssed topic. Hey, let's have a mandatory govt. ceiling on gasoline prices.That shoud muck up things real good. How about a minimum annual salary, of $30K, or should it be $40K? ALL ARBITRARY PRICE-SETTING BY THE GOVT. IS DISRUPTIVE!

[Jerk]

You need to get out more often.Or open your eyes

Sorry, my compassion machine is broke. You don't even need a high school diploma to get a CDL and drive a truck and make $35,000 your first year and $50,000+ after that. People can make it, they just don't want to work. I'm talking about healthy adults- not the disabled or elderly.

[walkoffsooner]

I can't argue with that. Good point

[yermom]

There is such a thing as fewer employees than possible, but that's only a short term solution. Sooner or later prices will go up and business will drop off--more schedule cut backs. Eventually the minimum wage increase will trickle upwards throughout the economy and a new equilibrium will be reached. Then everybody is back to where they started in terms of spending power, so what's the point?

easy. once we get close to that equilibrium, then we raise it again ;)

i'm sure it's just a ploy to get more votes for whatever party

[Stoop Dawg]

do you not think a person should try to elevate themselves from above MW level.

Of course. :confused:

[Stoop Dawg]

Sorry, my compassion machine is broke. You don't even need a high school diploma to get a CDL and drive a truck and make $35,000 your first year and $50,000+ after that. People can make it, they just don't want to work. I'm talking about healthy adults- not the disabled or elderly.

And they can just have their kids ride around in the truck with them and go to school whenever they stop?

Good answer.

Or, maybe there's a reason that truck driving pays a relatively high wage for a relatively low skill.

[Stoop Dawg]

Silly-*ssed topic. Hey, let's have a mandatory govt. ceiling on gasoline prices.That shoud muck up things real good. How about a minimum annual salary, of $30K, or should it be $40K? ALL ARBITRARY PRICE-SETTING BY THE GOVT. IS DISRUPTIVE!

I'm anxious to hear your plan for preventing the exploitation of unskilled workers.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I'm anxious to hear your plan for preventing the exploitation of unskilled workers.When the price of labor goes up, the cost of living goes up. Employers want to pay as little as possible for products and labor, just as you, the individual wants to do the same. When they pay more, they must raise the prices of the goods and services they offer. Econ 101.

[Jerk]

I'm anxious to hear your plan for preventing the exploitation of unskilled workers.

Dude, if you pay the janitor $20/hour, you may feel good about it, but then the school teacher will demand $60/hour and the airline pilot will want $180/hour. All you do by raising min. wage is to bump everyone up the latter. Everyone's wages go up, and price for consumer goods goes up. That's why the idea of a wage cap is floating around in some socialist/left leaning circles, but that would be an even worse disaster.

[Stoop Dawg]

Was my question really that difficult to understand?

[OUinFLA]

I'm anxious to hear your plan for preventing the exploitation of unskilled workers.


assuming we want to prevent it?
what else are we gonna do with all those ut grads?
:D

[OUinFLA]

Was my question really that difficult to understand?

Im having difficulty determining which question?
so I guess................yes.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Was my question really that difficult to understand?Not at all. I guess you didn't like our answers.

[Stoop Dawg]

Not at all. I guess you didn't like our answers.

So we prevent the exploitation of unskilled workers by not raising wages (which leads to increased consumer prices)?

I guess I'm just dense, I don't see the connection.

[Stoop Dawg]

Im having difficulty determining which question?
so I guess................yes.

The one they both responded to. Although, technically, it was not a question. It was a request for a plan of action. Both of them replied, neither provided a plan of action.

[OUinFLA]

John Doe choses not to work cause the gubberment will pay him to sit at home and do nothing. John is smart enough to realize he cant ever get ahead doing nothing(this is a big assumption).

The gubberment says, John, if you work you will lose all these "free" entitlements, Sorry if that makes you feel lazy.

Suppose the gub says, John, if you want to better your standard of living, we will still give you a handout, but if you go work for someone, we will reduce your handout by ..................say..............$1 for every $2 you earn ( or heck, even a reduction of $1 for every $3 John earns). Thus, John can still get somewhat of a handout, and move himself up a bit on the food chain. Perhaps even work his job long enough to develop a skill level that gets him off the handout status.

Now, I realize that John Superlazy ain't interested in either working or bettering his lifestyle. Not much seems to be able to be done about those guys. But almost certainly, there are some who desire to live a bit better, and perhaps have a chance to live a lot better.

Then again, maybe not.
Welfare is not my favorite subject.
I believe in "work hard and keep your dang hands in your pockets".

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

So we prevent the exploitation of unskilled workers by not raising wages (which leads to increased consumer prices)?

I guess I'm just dense, I don't see the connection.If the unskilled worker wants to get paid more , he needs to convince his employer that he is worth more, by showing he can do something for the employer that will bring in more money than the unskilled can bring in. In short, the employer isn't exploiting the employee-just paying him the market rate. When the govt. demands an employer pay more to the unskilled, the employer fights back, by requiring his existing workers to produce more, and/or laying off people. This is one of those areas where it is CLEARLY not beneficial for the govt. to take control.
If the employee doesn't like the amount of money he's getting, he should find another job, and/or get a skill or develop a profession that pays better.

[sooner n houston]

Suppose the gub says, John, if you want to better your standard of living, we will still give you a handout, but if you go work for someone, we will reduce your handout by ..................say..............$1 for every $2 you earn ( or heck, even a reduction of $1 for every $3 John earns).

Then the Unions can bitch about how the company hiring this person "puts it's employees on the government dole" i.e. Wal-Mart and their employees receiving medicare!

[Hamhock]

Was my question really that difficult to understand?

What do you mean by exploitation of the unskilled worker?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

What do you mean by exploitation of the unskilled worker?He drinks the Socialist Kool-Aid, where paying market wages is exploitation.

[OUinFLA]

Then the Unions can bitch about how the company hiring this person "puts it's employees on the government dole" i.e. Wal-Mart and their employees receiving medicare!

There are no easy answers that satisfy everyone, for sure.
Throw into the process my earlier post where my product line is being kept down by Asian workers who work for $2-$4 a DAY!.

If it wern't for freight costs from overseas, I doubt I could make a living even if I ran a Mom and Pop hatchery.

I wish I could be convenced that there were a conicopia of minds better than mine, with a grasp of how wages effect everyone's income level, capable of arriving at a workable solution. Saddly, I am going to be difficult to be convenced about that.