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View Full Version : lack of refineries: are the enviro-nuts really to blame?



Ike
5/8/2006, 10:41 PM
I was willing to ceede that such was probably the case. Until I saw this. It's kind of an eye opener.

Many people here have asserted that the main reason for high gas prices in recent years are due in LARGE part to the lack of refining capacity in the US, and then immediately attack the environmental groups as being responsible for the lack of refining capacity...implying that if the regulatory restrictions were lifted that the market would surge with refineries...but that may not actually be the case

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=52755


"It's now obvious to most Americans that we have a refinery shortage," said petroleum consultant Tim Hamilton, who authored a recent report about oil company price gouging for FTCR. (Read the report at http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/energy/rp/ ) "To point to the environmental laws as the cause simply misses the fact that it was the major oil companies, not the environmental groups, that used the regulatory process to create artificial shortages and limit competition."

The memos from Mobil, Chevron and Texaco show the following.

-- An internal 1996 memorandum from Mobil demonstrates the oil company's successful strategies to keep smaller refiner Powerine from reopening its California refinery. The document makes it clear that much of the hardships created by California's regulations governing refineries came at the urging of the major oil companies and not the environmental organizations blamed by the industry. The other alternative plan discussed in the event Powerine did open the refinery was "....buying all their avails and marketing it ourselves" to insure the lower price fuel didn't get into the market. Read the Mobil memo at http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/energy/fs/5105.pdf

-- An internal Chevron memo states; "A senior energy analyst at the recent API convention warned that if the US petroleum industry doesn't reduce its refining capacity it will never see any substantial increase in refinery margins." It then discussed how major refiners were closing down their refineries. Read the Chevron memo at http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/energy/fs/5103.pdf

-- The Texaco memo disclosed how the industry believed in the mid-1990s that "the most critical factor facing the refining industry on the West Coast is the surplus of refining capacity, and the surplus gasoline production capacity. (The same situation exists for the entire U.S. refining industry.) Supply significantly exceeds demand year-round. This results in very poor refinery margins and very poor refinery financial results. Significant events need to occur to assist in reducing supplies and/or increasing the demand for gasoline. One example of a significant event would be the elimination of mandates for oxygenate addition to gasoline. Given a choice, oxygenate usage would go down, and gasoline supplies would go down accordingly. (Much effort is being exerted to see this happen in the Pacific Northwest.)" As a result of such pressure, Washington State eliminated the ethanol mandate - requiring greater quantities of refined supply to fill the gasoline volume occupied by ethanol. Read the Texaco memo at http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/energy/fs/5104.pdf

OUinFLA
5/8/2006, 10:48 PM
Significant events need to occur to assist in reducing supplies and/or increasing the demand for gasoline.

such as building the Hummer, motor homes, and large SUV's at 8mpg. :D

SleestakSooner
5/8/2006, 10:51 PM
such as building the Hummer, motor homes, and large SUV's at 8mpg. :D

Or having a huge natural disaster wipe out several of the nations largest oil refineries and the communities that supported them.:(

OUinFLA
5/8/2006, 10:54 PM
Or having a huge natural disaster wipe out several of the nations largest oil refineries and the communities that supported them.:(


Oh..............well, that too.
except that isnt very funny.

Boarder
5/8/2006, 10:55 PM
12ish

OklahomaTuba
5/9/2006, 08:23 AM
Ahh, two things Ike.

First off, those are from the mid 90's. Not sure if you know what the price of oil was then, but it was CHEAP, and refining capacity was good then because many domestic and international refineries has completed major expansions started in the 80's and the industry was overbuilt before the major economic expansion hit in the late 90's here and in China and India.

Second,

said petroleum consultant Tim Hamilton, who authored a recent report about oil company price gouging for FTCR.
As soon as you posted this, the cred went right out the window.


The truth is that it is nearly impossible and uneconomical to build a greenfield refinery right now because
the permitting takes way too long.

bri
5/9/2006, 09:05 AM
So, if a guy who is looking for evidence of price-gouging FINDS evidence of price-gouging, it has no credibility?

My god, you've just discovered a BRILLIANT new defense strategy: "Your Honor, all this evidence has no credibility and needs to be thrown out because the cops were TRYING to find evidence to prove I shot that bitch..."

OklahomaTuba
5/9/2006, 09:08 AM
Thats the problem Bri, he didn't find any evidence, yet keeps accusing anyway.

Sounds like a nut job to me.

SleestakSooner
5/9/2006, 09:10 AM
http://www.ilcorn.org/Ethanol/85__Ethanol/85__ethanol.html
E-85

Taxman71
5/9/2006, 09:11 AM
[conspiracytheorist]It's all Bush's fault for letting Katrina ruin the New Orleans refineries so his oil buddies could triple their profits[conspiracytheorist]

OklahomaTuba
5/9/2006, 09:12 AM
http://www.ilcorn.org/Ethanol/85__Ethanol/85__ethanol.html
E-85

If only there was enough corn....

Mjcpr
5/9/2006, 09:15 AM
If only there was enough corn....

Can't Ethanol, theoretically at least, be produced from any kind of plant.....or cellulose?

SCOUT
5/9/2006, 09:18 AM
Can't Ethanol, theoretically at least, be produced from any kind of plant.....or cellulose?

I thought I heard that South America has been pretty successful with biodeisel derived from sugar.

TUSooner
5/9/2006, 09:22 AM
So, if a guy who is looking for evidence of price-gouging FINDS evidence of price-gouging, it has no credibility?

My god, you've just discovered a BRILLIANT new defense strategy: "Your Honor, all this evidence has no credibility and needs to be thrown out because the cops were TRYING to find evidence to prove I shot that bitch..."

Why must I spread some reputation around now???

JohnnyMack
5/9/2006, 09:40 AM
Can't Ethanol, theoretically at least, be produced from any kind of plant.....or cellulose?

You could just have a sorta fuel tank/liposuction machine that could suck fat out of your *** after you leave McDonald's and it would be turned into fuel for your Hummer. Then you can drive back to McDonald's. You are truly a wise man Pat. I bow at the altar that is your wisdom. And I want a pool table, and a PS3 once you're rich.

Mjcpr
5/9/2006, 09:41 AM
You could just have a sorta fuel tank/liposuction machine that could suck fat out of your *** after you leave McDonald's and it would be turned into fuel for your Hummer. Then you can drive back to McDonald's. You are truly a wise man Pat. I bow at the altar that is your wisdom. And I want a pool table, and a PS3 once you're rich.

I wish I was wise enough to know WTH you're talking about.

JohnnyMack
5/9/2006, 09:43 AM
I wish I was wise enough to know WTH you're talking about.

Oh, you said cellulOSE, I thought you said celluLITE.

Nevermind, you're a retard. I'm taking credit for the idea.

royalfan5
5/9/2006, 09:50 AM
Can't Ethanol, theoretically at least, be produced from any kind of plant.....or cellulose?
Yes, sugar and switchgrass are much more efficent. We really don't have the sugar capacity in the United States to do much with sugar right now. The technology is here to do switchgrass, but not the marketing and transportation infrastructure for switchgrass. It will take some strong incentives to get people to shift acreage into switchgrass production.

Taxman71
5/9/2006, 11:07 AM
Can you grow switchgrass in Oklahoma? I know of alot of CRP land expiring soon that will probably just turn into deer feed plots.

royalfan5
5/9/2006, 11:10 AM
Can you grow switchgrass in Oklahoma? I know of alot of CRP land expiring soon that will probably just turn into deer feed plots.
If it is in CRP it is switchgrass. Switchgrass is kind of a catch-all term

TUSooner
5/9/2006, 11:41 AM
I'm shocked, SHOCKED to learn that a corporation might want to maximize its profit margin.

Ike
5/9/2006, 11:44 AM
I'm shocked, SHOCKED to learn that a corporation might want to maximize its profit margin.

I'm not shocked by it at all. But what does get me is the notion that lifting restrictions on refineries most likely wouldn't result in more refineries getting built...

OUDoc
5/9/2006, 11:50 AM
Syphilis to them all.

TheHumanAlphabet
5/9/2006, 12:03 PM
I work in the oil industry, but I would be all for the ethanol/E85 fuel becoming mainstream in the U.S. Hell with all this experience with pipe and valves, oil companies would be in a great position to make/distill/refine fuel.

While I see an oil based industry for a long while, no reason why the U.S. can't use renewable resources to make fuel.

Ike
5/9/2006, 12:05 PM
I work in the oil industry, but I would be all for the ethanol/E85 fuel becoming mainstream in the U.S. Hell with all this experience with pipe and valves, oil companies would be in a great position to make/distill/refine fuel.

While I see an oil based industry for a long while, no reason why the U.S. can't use renewable resources to make fuel.

its just hard to grow enough corn.

Sugar would be better from what I understand.

1stTimeCaller
5/9/2006, 12:13 PM
When I lived in Denver the cheap gasoline was 85 octane. And it was actually more expensive than 87 in Oklahoma. Was/is the 85 in Denver the ethanol we're talking about here?

Pricetag
5/9/2006, 12:16 PM
its just hard to grow enough corn.

Sugar would be better from what I understand.
How much corn are we using to make high fructose corn syrup? We should take all that corn and use it to make fuel, and go back to using real sugar for sweetener. We kill two birds with one stone.

royalfan5
5/9/2006, 12:24 PM
How much corn are we using to make high fructose corn syrup? We should take all that corn and use it to make fuel, and go back to using real sugar for sweetener. We kill two birds with one stone.
except for that you would be losing the much more efficent sugar as fuel. Sugar and Switchgrass are 4 to 6 times more efficent than corn as ethanol. No matter what you do we don't have enough corn. Last year 30 percent of the corn crop produced 3 percent of the energy needs of the United States. With all the new plants being built the amount of corn used is going to increase. This is also coupled with a 5 percent decrease in corn acres this year.

OklahomaTuba
5/9/2006, 12:35 PM
I'm not shocked by it at all. But what does get me is the notion that lifting restrictions on refineries most likely wouldn't result in more refineries getting built...
I think it would.

See, there are groups and independents that would like to build them. Do the majors such as Valero and EM want more capacity which may lower margins? Of course not. However Is all of the rise in gas prices attributed to refining capacity? No, it isn't.

Its a combination of things such as worldwide oil demand, sourcing instability, new emmission requirements with MTBE replacement additives, market speculation & lower refining capacity due to refinery turnarounds and taxes.

Also, don't forget that the price of a gallon is actually in line adjusted with inflation. We just got used to cheap energy and the chickens are coming home to roost.

Boarder
5/9/2006, 01:24 PM
I saw $2.58/gal today. Woo Hoo!

OUinFLA
5/9/2006, 01:45 PM
I saw $2.58/gal today. Woo Hoo!

one year ago..............


I saw $2.58/gal today. OMG!

TheHumanAlphabet
5/9/2006, 03:21 PM
its just hard to grow enough corn.

Sugar would be better from what I understand.

A guy on Dateline said we could use prairie grass and says the process can be improved to use any cellulose based plant material, like stalks, grass, bark, paper pulp waste, etc. Corn/grain is prime now, but the system could be retooled to use the waste material.

Boarder
5/9/2006, 03:38 PM
one year ago..............
No way...I'm happy when the price goes down. I never complain when it goes up. That's for mid-sized car drivers.