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Okla-homey
5/6/2006, 04:41 PM
and you're an Okie,

you should check out this website.

http://www.civilwaralbum.com/indian/index.htm

StoopTroup
5/6/2006, 04:52 PM
Use this map to get to Fort McCulloch. ;)

http://www.civilwaralbum.com/maps/McCulloch.gif

I hear there are Confederate gold bars planted there.

soonerhubs
5/6/2006, 04:58 PM
and you're an Okie,

you should check out this website.

http://www.civilwaralbum.com/indian/index.htm
Homey you are awesome when it comes to stuff like this.

I personally love historical sites, and may join the society soon.

By the way, do you know much about Spiro MOunds?

Okla-homey
5/6/2006, 06:04 PM
By the way, do you know much about Spiro MOunds?

Is that where they buried Agnew?

soonerhubs
5/6/2006, 06:06 PM
Is that where they buried Agnew?
heh.

King Crimson
5/6/2006, 06:17 PM
i can't haul off and say i dig the Civil War, but it's shore interesting. had family members in OK on both sides. One died at Gettysburg, named George Washington *KC's last name*. others fought for the South.

StoopTroup
5/6/2006, 06:23 PM
Why was Missouri so Switzerland like and how did they get away with it?

Okla-homey
5/6/2006, 06:31 PM
Why was Missouri so Switzerland like and how did they get away with it?

They were'nt Switzerland-like in the sense that Switzerland has been able to stay neutral and safe behind its mountains.

Missouri was a very bloody place. Bushwhackers vs. Redlegs. At times, the "woah" was nastier there than any other state. Especially because lots of partisan "free-lancers" were about and operating at the very limits of human decency and often exceeding it. On both sides.

In fact, I'd go so far to say that living in western Missouri between 1861-64 was a great way to get dragged from your bed and a bullet shot between your eyes regardless of which side you were for and whether you were in the army or not.

King Crimson
5/6/2006, 06:35 PM
They were'nt Switzerland-like in the sense that Switzerland has been able to stay neutral and safe behind its mountains.

Missouri was a very bloody place. Bushwhackers vs. Redlegs. At times, the "woah" was nastier there than any other state. Especially because lots of partisan "free-lancers" were about and operating at the very limits of human decency and often exceeding it. On both sides.

In fact, I'd go so far to say that living in western Missouri between 1861-64 was a great way to get dragged from your bed and a bullet shot between your eyes regardless of which side you were for and whether you were in the army or not.

and not to mention the jawhawkers and bill quantrill burning lawrence to the ground. which is today still the source of one of the NCAA's most heated (unknown) rivalries--Mizzou-KU. those people HATE each other.

StoopTroup
5/6/2006, 06:43 PM
Good Stuff...Thanks!

LoyalFan
5/6/2006, 06:56 PM
Is that where they buried Agnew?

Yeah, and his little pet, his beloved Spirochete.

LF

LoyalFan
5/6/2006, 06:57 PM
Use this map to get to Fort McCulloch. ;)

http://www.civilwaralbum.com/maps/McCulloch.gif

I hear there are Confederate gold bars planted there.

He said "breastworks"!!!

LF

StoopTroup
5/6/2006, 07:50 PM
If you look at the sketch they have a Tenis court too. ;)

OUTromBoNado
5/6/2006, 11:17 PM
By the way, do you know much about Spiro MOunds?

I went there once. And visisted the Heavener Runestone all on the same day. Pretty interesting stuff.

jk the sooner fan
5/6/2006, 11:26 PM
my gg-grandfather is a civil war vet, buried at Ft Gibson

Jerk
5/6/2006, 11:37 PM
and not to mention the jawhawkers and bill quantrill burning lawrence to the ground. which is today still the source of one of the NCAA's most heated (unknown) rivalries--Mizzou-KU. those people HATE each other.

Not only was the town burned down, but every male past puberty was shot dead.

It is one of the biggest mass murders in domestic American history.

Flagstaffsooner
5/7/2006, 02:52 AM
It's The War Between The States, you gawdless yankees.

Jerk
5/7/2006, 12:08 PM
It's The War Between The States, you gawdless yankees.

War of Northern Aggression.

If the North didn't have 3x the population and 3x the industrial resources, they would have had their arses handed to them. In fact, the NRA was created to teach basic marksmanship to every-day joe blow yanks who could not hit the broad side of a barn with a shotgun.

Scott D
5/7/2006, 12:13 PM
War of Northern Aggression.

If the North didn't have 3x the population and 3x the industrial resources, they would have had their arses handed to them. In fact, the NRA was created to teach basic marksmanship to every-day joe blow yanks who could not hit the broad side of a barn with a shotgun.

yeah..how'd that blockade work out for ya?

Flagstaffsooner
5/7/2006, 12:25 PM
yeah..how'd that blockade work out for ya?Dawdamned yankee imperialism of the high seas.

Scott D
5/7/2006, 12:29 PM
Dawdamned yankee imperialism of the high seas.

The ironic part is that even had the Confderacy 'won' they would have ended up losing, because they would have lost the support of the English had they not ended slavery.

Okla-homey
5/7/2006, 12:31 PM
War of Northern Aggression.

If the North didn't have 3x the population and 3x the industrial resources, they would have had their arses handed to them. In fact, the NRA was created to teach basic marksmanship to every-day joe blow yanks who could not hit the broad side of a barn with a shotgun.

By late 1863, the Yanks had closed the gap pretty effectively in the combat and leadership departments in the east. Out west, they kicked butt from the beginning. With the exception of Chickamauga, the western Confederate armies never won any of the big battles. I believe they only won at Chickamauga because of the presence of Longstreet's corps which had been detached from Virginia to shore up those western Confederates just before the battle. Afterwards, they redeployed back to Virginia.

Here's another thing Jerk-man i've come to believe. Ultimately, the Confederacy died because of its own commitment to anti-federalism. The notion of states rights was counter-productive when fighting a determined foe raised by a strong centrally governed federal system.

When Lincoln wanted something done, he just snapped those long fingers of his. Jeff Davis had to cajole and beg the various Confederate governors who often said "no." Greatly simplified, but that was the bottom line. "States rights" and the Confederate reluctance to grant the "commander-in-chief" complete authority to fight the war using any means necessary got an awful lot of Southern boys killed.

As a related aside, at wars end, when the ragged rebels all headed home after enduring incredible hardship and deprivation, the state of NC still had in storage thousands of uniform sets in warehouses in Raleigh. Governor Vance wouldn't allow uniforms and equipment manufactured by NC shops to be issued to anyone but Tarheel troops. Thus, boys from Virginia, SC, Georgia, etc. who were practically naked at times could have been clothed were it not for "states rights." That's just one example.

The good news is, after the war ended, those uniforms were used to clothe convicts in the NC state pen for the next 30 years or so. No kiddin'

Jerk
5/7/2006, 12:39 PM
By late 1863, the Yanks had closed the gap pretty effectively in the combat and leadership departments in the east. Out west, they kicked butt from the beginning. With the exception of Chickamauga, the western Confederate armies never won any of the big battles. I believe they only won at Chickamauga because of the presence of Longstreet's corps which had been detached from Virginia to shore up those western Confederates just before the battle. Afterwards, they redeployed back to Virginia.

Here's another thing Jerk-man i've come to believe. Ultimately, the Confederacy died because of its own commitment to anti-federalism. The notion of states rights was counter-productive when fighting a determined foe raised by a strong centrally governed federal system.

When Lincoln wanted something done, he just snapped those long fingers of his. Jeff Davis had to cajole and beg the various Confederate governors who often said "no." Greatly simplified, but that was the bottom line. "States rights" and the Confederate reluctance to grant the "commander-in-chief" complete authority to fight the war using any means necessary got an awful lot of Southern boys killed.

As a related aside, at wars end, when the ragged rebels all headed home after enduring incredible hardship and deprivation, the state of NC still had in storage thousands of uniform sets in warehouses in Raleigh. Governor Vance wouldn't allow uniforms and equipment manufactured by NC shops to be issued to anyone but Tarheel troops. Thus, boys from Virginia, SC, Georgia, etc. who were practically naked at times could have been clothed were it not for "states rights." That's just one example.

The good news is, after the war ended, those uniforms were used to clothe convicts in the NC state pen for the next 30 years or so. No kiddin'

Thanks of the lesson. I like this kind of stuff.

Ultimately, we had to be one nation in order to face the 2 World Wars and a Cold War coming up. plus whatever lies ahead today.

I just like the concept of local autonomy and not having large population masses dictate how others live their day to day lives. I believe in the Republic with a Constitution that protects individual rights and limits government power....not "democracy."

I think democracy is 2 wolves and 1 sheep voting on what's for dinner.

I'm pretty much for all things and any thing that stands against socialism, except facism. I can't support that, either.

btw- did Stand Wattie win any battles? Or was he more of a guerilla type hit-and-run insurgent?

Flagstaffsooner
5/7/2006, 12:42 PM
When Lincoln wanted something done, he just snapped those long fingers of his.
So could Joseph Stallin.

Okla-homey
5/7/2006, 01:13 PM
Thanks of the lesson. I like this kind of stuff.

Ultimately, we had to be one nation in order to face the 2 World Wars and a Cold War coming up. plus whatever lies ahead today.

I just like the concept of local autonomy and not having large population masses dictate how others live their day to day lives. I believe in the Republic with a Constitution that protects rights....not "democracy" I think democracy is 2 wolves and 1 sheep voting on what's for dinner.

btw- did Stand Wattie win any battles? Or was he more of a guerilla type hit-and-run insurgent?

Don't get me wrong. The Confederates in the ANV were awesome under Lee. Capably led, they usually won until mid-war. They just lacked depth. It did ultimately come down to Grant being brought from the west fresh from his triumph at Vicksburg and put in command in the East. Grant knew that he could play the numbers to his advantage. He reasoned that if he could just keep Lee engaged, and pound him without a let-up, eventually Lee would have to give up because he couldn't replace his losses. I think its particularly instructive to note Grant's orders to George Meade, his principle subordinate in Virginia who he let remain in command of the army of the Potomac: "Wherever Lee goes, you go also."

That was a departure from the Jominian "chessgame" the guys before him had tried by their attempts to outmanuever Lee and somehow get to Richmond and "capture the flag." IOW, Grant discarded the notion of complicated offensive strategies. Grant knew Richmond was of no consequence and fancy attempts to outflank Lee were dumb.

Grant understood the simple calculus of the thing. He had experienced players and could go to his bench to get more to replace his losses (offensive depth.) Thus, Grant ran it up the middle every time and eventually wore out Lee's defensive line. Thus, "three yards and a cloud of dust" on every down is what beat Lee in the end. You are quite correct that Northern industrial might and the larger population base made that possible.

That said, Lee's defensive secondary was just too good even towards the end to allow fancy offensive plays, but as stated above, Grant read it and adapted. When Lee did regain possession, he had no passing game left because his best receivers were out of the game (dead, not injured) and was hurting in the running back department as well. Grant's defense remained solid and when Lee tried to run the ball, they just bounced off or only got a yard or two and thus could no longer convert on third down.

break/break

Stand Watie was the last Confederate general officer to put down his sword in June of '65. He was not a guerilla fighter. He actually held a Confederate commission but most of his action was here in the territory running pro-Union indians out and up to Kansas.

His biggest scrap was over in Arkansas at Pea Ridge under Earl van Dorn (a loss.) Watie's two greatest victories were the capture of the federal steam boat J.R. Williams on the Arkansas River on June 15, 1864, and the seizure of $1.5 million worth of supplies in a federal wagon supply train a the Second battle of Cabin Creek near Muscogee on September 19, 1864.

GDC
5/7/2006, 08:02 PM
Stand Watie was the last Confederate general officer to put down his sword in June of '65. He was not a guerilla fighter. He actually held a Confederate commission but most of his action was here in the territory running pro-Union indians out and up to Kansas.

His biggest scrap was over in Arkansas at Pea Ridge under Earl van Dorn (a loss.) Watie's two greatest victories were the capture of the federal steam boat J.R. Williams on the Arkansas River on June 15, 1864, and the seizure of $1.5 million worth of supplies in a federal wagon supply train a the Second battle of Cabin Creek near Muscogee on September 19, 1864.

Read Rifles For Watie by OU's own Harold Keith.

SicEmBaylor
5/7/2006, 10:50 PM
Hey Homey,
Have you heard of the Pelican Rifles?
or TMR?

soonerhubs
5/7/2006, 11:02 PM
SicEm Did you have Mr. Maher for Oklahoma History?

SicEmBaylor
5/7/2006, 11:20 PM
SicEm Did you have Mr. Maher for Oklahoma History?

No, I had him for World History but Mr. Baker for OK History. I'd rather have had Mr. Maher for OK history and if you remember Baker then you'll know why. :D

Okla-homey
5/8/2006, 04:30 AM
Hey Homey,
Have you heard of the Pelican Rifles?
or TMR?

Pelican Rifles? sounds Louisianan. Not familiar with the acronym.

sooner n houston
5/8/2006, 08:31 AM
From the linked site:

http://www.civilwaralbum.com/wa****a/nov04_1.htm


Post Cemetery. The remains of soldiers who died before the War Between the States were removed to the National Cemetery at Fort Gibson in the 1870s. A stone cenotaph honors Brigadier General Belknap who was commander of the army in the southwest. A Chickasaw burial ground is located to the east of the military (later civilian) cemetery and between them is the Colbert family plot. West of the fort are graves dating from the Confederate occupation of Fort Wa****a


I have relatives in both the military and Chickasaw cemeteries. My great aunt on my dads side was Chickasaw and her parents are buried there. I can't remember who but someone from my dad's family was buried in the military side. We used to go there with my great aunt to visit her family when I was a kid.

GDC
5/8/2006, 08:33 AM
my gg-grandfather is a civil war vet, buried at Ft Gibson

So was mine, on the Confederate side.

SicEmBaylor
5/8/2006, 07:26 PM
Pelican Rifles? sounds Louisianan. Not familiar with the acronym.

TMR=Trans-Mississippi Rifles. They're a pretty major Confederate re-enacting group in the Oklahoma/Missouri/Arkansas area.

The Pelican Rifles are the same thing here in OK based on a Lousiana group.

Okla-homey
5/8/2006, 07:44 PM
TMR=Trans-Mississippi Rifles. They're a pretty major Confederate re-enacting group in the Oklahoma/Missouri/Arkansas area.

The Pelican Rifles are the same thing here in OK based on a Lousiana group.

farbs.

SicEmBaylor
5/8/2006, 07:49 PM
farbs.
Are you kidding me? The TMR is freaking anal about authenticity beyond words. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a group that goes to as much pain to be authentic.

I think you're thinking of the 5th Arkansas.

Okla-homey
5/8/2006, 09:55 PM
Are you kidding me? The TMR is freaking anal about authenticity beyond words. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a group that goes to as much pain to be authentic.

I think you're thinking of the 5th Arkansas.

I've seen 'em. They're farbs.

This from their website: "While the TMR is considered strictly an infantry organization, the TMR does encourage Family participation through separate organizations closely associated with the TMR."

IOW, Ma, the kiddies and acres of canvas.

Jerk
5/9/2006, 05:27 AM
WTF is a farb?

Okla-homey
5/9/2006, 05:58 AM
WTF is a farb?

a "farb" is a term of derision in the reenacting community. "Farbs" are people who like to reenact but cut a lot of corners in the area of authenticity. Typically those corner cuttings involve accepting less than the best available in clothing and equipment, zany personal portrayals and also includes use of modern conveniences and comforts Civil War soldiers commonly didn't have...like coolers, pop-tarts, hot dogs, camp furniture, and beer.

"Farbs" also bring along the family and often share a tent with the wife and kids...thus, not really living a life of a Civil War soldier but participating in family camping with a Civil War theme.

Most people in the hobby think the term derived from criticisms of such loose interpretations of history which began with "Far be it from me to criticize your impression, but..."

The polar opposite of "farb" is "hard core"...so called because those guys are bent on trying to do things as authentically as possible. Another term for the opposite of "farb" is "stitch nazi" because authentc reenactors pay a lot of attention to detail in uniform accuracy.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2719/zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz35.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Farbs

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/4333/zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz37.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Hardcores