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RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
4/20/2006, 04:15 PM
The Maricopa County Board of Supervisors, in the early '90's, in a stealth vote, authorized a STADIUM TAX for the people of Maricopa County. Our local rag, the Az Republic, never gave much press to the many detractors of the unpopular tax.
In time, the stadium was built and the Diamondbacks had a world title in '01, I believe. Well, THEY LOST MONEY THAT YEAR AND HAVE EVERY YEAR.
This year, during the last three days, they have record low attendence numbers. When will the losses end? Answer-NEVER. Is it baseball, or just the idiots in local government that is the biggest problem?

royalfan5
4/20/2006, 04:21 PM
I don't now how they manage to lose money. David Glass turns a profit with the worse run franchise in baseball, and just got 200 million for renovations in a public vote.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
4/20/2006, 04:24 PM
I don't now how they manage to lose money. David Glass turns a profit with the worse run franchise in baseball, and just got 200 million for renovations in a public vote.Sorry, but that is where, KC? We had no public vote for the stadium tax here in PHX, as I mentioned. They just rammed it through.

royalfan5
4/20/2006, 04:25 PM
Sorry, but that is where, KC? We had no public vote for the stadium tax here in PHX, as I mentioned. They just rammed it through.
I know, what I am saying is you have to be pretty incompent to conistently lose money in a prosport, unless you are trying to lose money as a tax shelter. Perhaps you should live in a less fasicst state when it comes to tax decisions on pro sports.

NormanPride
4/20/2006, 04:35 PM
Baseball before the all star break = pointless.

Veritas
4/20/2006, 04:38 PM
I don't now how they manage to lose money. David Glass turns a profit with the worse run franchise in baseball, and just got 200 million for renovations in a public vote.
As a Royal fan of admittedly less stature than yourself, it pains me to have to say that David Glass sucks. Baseball is a business, yes, but damn it. At least try to win.

royalfan5
4/20/2006, 04:40 PM
As a Royal fan of admittedly less stature than yourself, it pains me to have to say that David Glass sucks. Baseball is a business, yes, but damn it. At least try to win.
Yes, he sucks and Allard just as much so, he's just happens to be smart enough to get a return on his investment despite being the worst owner in sports.

bigdsooner
4/20/2006, 04:42 PM
try being a cubs fan, nothing goes right...EVAR

Veritas
4/20/2006, 04:44 PM
Yes, he sucks and Allard just as much so, he's just happens to be smart enough to get a return on his investment despite being the worst owner in sports.
I think you're being too kind.

royalfan5
4/20/2006, 04:49 PM
try being a cubs fan, nothing goes right...EVAR
This seems like as good of time as any to get my feeling about Cubs fans out there. I hate the Cubs and the fans more than any other grudge I carry in sports. Every problem the Cubs have is completely self-inflicted, and they attract all sorts of wannabe martys for fans. Maybe instead of b******* about a curse, maybe they should develop some left handed pitching for once? Just maybe, or maybe the organization whould have a little more incentive to start winning if they had a fan base that demanded it? Instead the Cubs fans eaglerly flock Wrigley like sheep to be shorn. At least the Red Sox finally won they were nearly as bad as the Cubs.

Scott D
4/20/2006, 04:49 PM
Cubs suck....they'd be the second best team in the city, but a semi-pro team is better than them ;)

royalfan5
4/20/2006, 04:50 PM
I think you're being too kind.
It's a family board.

Ike
4/20/2006, 04:54 PM
Cubs suck....they'd be the second best team in the city, but a semi-pro team is better than them ;)


which semi-pro team? I can think of 2 just off the top of my head.

Scott D
4/20/2006, 05:00 PM
which semi-pro team? I can think of 2 just off the top of my head.

Pick one ;)

JohnnyMack
4/20/2006, 05:03 PM
The Maricopa County Board of Supervisors, in the early '90's, in a stealth vote, authorized a STADIUM TAX for the people of Maricopa County. Our local rag, the Az Republic, never gave much press to the many detractors of the unpopular tax.
In time, the stadium was built and the Diamondbacks had a world title in '01, I believe. Well, THEY LOST MONEY THAT YEAR AND HAVE EVERY YEAR.
This year, during the last three days, they have record low attendence numbers. When will the losses end? Answer-NEVER. Is it baseball, or just the idiots in local government that is the biggest problem?

I would blame the ownership before I would blame either baseball or the local government. Although when the local government taxes its citizens in order to build an arena they should keep a tighter rein on the people who are getting the money. Force their hand in terms of spending the money necessary to make the team competitive. I'd be curious to see the corrolation between 2001's attendance and the team's payroll and 2005's attendance and the team's payroll.

I for one have no problem spending tax dollars to help build stadiums as I truly believe that the long term benefits of economic stimulation outweigh the short term financial burden. But there has to be accountability and it sounds like there isn't any here.

Ike
4/20/2006, 05:10 PM
heh.

ya know, its funny living up here and seeing first hand the difference between Sox fans and Cub fans. Cub fans are the lassiez faire baseball fans. They go to the games to drink beer, scout the women, and as an excuse to leave work early. They may or may not pay attention to the game, and think that throwing back a homerun ball hit by the other team is proof of their die-hardness. When the Sox won the world series, the lasting sentiment from Cub fans was "Oh thats so great for the city! Now we just need to get our darn cubbies to win one"

Sox fans on the other hand are the antithesis of cub fans. For the most part they are the white collar, in your face kind of baseball fan. If you take too long leaving your seat to go get a hot dog, you'll get yelled at. you'll get yelled at for leaving your seat in the middle of an inning too. Sox fans are there to watch the game first, and then maybe to drink some beer. You can ask any one of them damn near anything about any guy on the field, and they know the answer. They completely immerse themselves in their team. And if the Cubs were to ever make it to the world series, the lasting sentiment from Sox fans would most likely be "F**k the cubs!"

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
4/20/2006, 05:14 PM
I don't believe it is a valid function of govt. to participate in the business of organized sports. However, if they insist on having a tax to fund sports, there at least should have been a vote on it.

NormanPride
4/20/2006, 05:14 PM
heh.

ya know, its funny living up here and seeing first hand the difference between Sox fans and Cub fans. Cub fans are the lassiez faire baseball fans. They go to the games to drink beer, scout the women, and as an excuse to leave work early. They may or may not pay attention to the game, and think that throwing back a homerun ball hit by the other team is proof of their die-hardness. When the Sox won the world series, the lasting sentiment from Cub fans was "Oh thats so great for the city! Now we just need to get our darn cubbies to win one"

Sox fans on the other hand are the antithesis of cub fans. For the most part they are the white collar, in your face kind of baseball fan. If you take too long leaving your seat to go get a hot dog, you'll get yelled at. you'll get yelled at for leaving your seat in the middle of an inning too. Sox fans are there to watch the game first, and then maybe to drink some beer. You can ask any one of them damn near anything about any guy on the field, and they know the answer. They completely immerse themselves in their team. And if the Cubs were to ever make it to the world series, the lasting sentiment from Sox fans would most likely be "F**k the cubs!"

...So they're the Texas A&M aggies of the baseball world? ;)

JohnnyMack
4/20/2006, 05:16 PM
I don't believe it is a valid function of govt. to participate in the business of organized sports. However, if they insist on having a tax to fund sports, there at least should have been a vote on it.

What if the long term financial benefits to the city outweigh the cost? Don't believe in investing for the future? Don't believe in stimulating economic growth? Or just hate all governments?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
4/20/2006, 05:19 PM
What if the long term financial benefits to the city outweigh the cost? Don't believe in investing for the future? Don't believe in stimulating economic growth? Or just hate all governments?Yup, each of your questions was frivolous...Sorry.

JohnnyMack
4/20/2006, 05:21 PM
Yup, each of your questions was frivolous...Sorry.

I forgot my winkie face.

Why are you opposed to investing tax dollars into sports teams?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
4/20/2006, 05:28 PM
I forgot my winkie face.

Why are you opposed to investing tax dollars into sports teams?It's a financial venture into something that isn't for the purpose that govt. should be involved in, such as police and fire departments, roads, sewers, water supply, or even social programs like welfare, etc. It's a business venture, pure and simple, and is not appropriate for govt. to compete with the private sector.
Another issue entirely is that the tax was levied without approval of the people.

JohnnyMack
4/20/2006, 05:39 PM
It's a financial venture into something that isn't for the purpose that govt. should be involved in, such as police and fire departments, roads, sewers, water supply, or even social programs like welfare, etc. It's a business venture, pure and simple, and is not appropriate for govt. to compete with the private sector.
Another issue entirely is that the tax was levied without approval of the people.

So like for instance when OKC had the MAPS project, you would have been opposed to stimulus plans designed to improve a city?

Scott D
4/20/2006, 05:42 PM
It's a financial venture into something that isn't for the purpose that govt. should be involved in, such as police and fire departments, roads, sewers, water supply, or even social programs like welfare, etc. It's a business venture, pure and simple, and is not appropriate for govt. to compete with the private sector.
Another issue entirely is that the tax was levied without approval of the people.

realistically the only valid point you have is the one about the tax being levied without the prospect of being voted on by the populace. public funding for stadiums and arenas has been around for so long that there really isn't a way for people to get past it other than to vote no every time it comes up.

In your zeal to protest the venture itself, you neglect to even look for anything that could be considered beneficial in regards to the venture.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
4/20/2006, 05:55 PM
In your zeal to protest the venture itself, you neglect to even look for anything that could be considered beneficial in regards to the venture.Disagreement, of course. It's simply not the role of govt. to take private sector risks with public money.

Scott D
4/20/2006, 06:01 PM
Disagreement, of course. It's simply not the role of govt. to take private sector risks with public money.

That's the catch though. What part does govt. play in stimulating economic growth in it's particular sphere of influence? What about the jobs that are created from the project, not to mention the jobs created by the team being there, or a team moving there.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
4/20/2006, 06:09 PM
That's the catch though. What part does govt. play in stimulating economic growth in it's particular sphere of influence? What about the jobs that are created from the project, not to mention the jobs created by the team being there, or a team moving there.It wasn't voluntary investment.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
4/20/2006, 06:11 PM
So like for instance when OKC had the MAPS project, you would have been opposed to stimulus plans designed to improve a city?I don't know what this is, and would prefer to have you tell me than to look it up.

Scott D
4/20/2006, 06:13 PM
It wasn't voluntary investment.

I'm not disputing the voluntary portion of it. If a council passes something like that without first going to the populace to at least gauge public interest in such a venture then it's not all that right. However, when said venture is brought forth before the populace and they pass it, does that change how you view it?

mrowl
4/20/2006, 06:13 PM
Couple Reasons why the Diamondbacks do not make a profit.

#1. BOB (the stadium, now Chase Field)

This is the WORST ballpark of them all, even all of them that have been torn down in the past 20 years. It is VERY strange to sit in. Seems like they positioned the fans to stare out at the center field wall, and not home base. Its domed, but that doesn't help (the AC doesn't work worth crap). It looks like a giant metal and brick storage shed in the middle of a nice downtown area.

#2. The Owner

About everything has been said already.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
4/20/2006, 06:25 PM
Couple Reasons why the Diamondbacks do not make a profit.

#1. BOB (the stadium, now Chase Field)

This is the WORST ballpark of them all, even all of them that have been torn down in the past 20 years. It is VERY strange to sit in. Seems like they positioned the fans to stare out at the center field wall, and not home base. Its domed, but that doesn't help (the AC doesn't work worth crap). It looks like a giant metal and brick storage shed in the middle of a nice downtown area.

#2. The Owner

About everything has been said already.Plus, even getting to and from the stadium during most of the season is miserable, with the summer heat we have in PHX.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
4/20/2006, 06:27 PM
I'm not disputing the voluntary portion of it. If a council passes something like that without first going to the populace to at least gauge public interest in such a venture then it's not all that right. However, when said venture is brought forth before the populace and they pass it, does that change how you view it?No, I still think it stinks for the govt. to do private sector things.

bigdsooner
4/20/2006, 06:46 PM
This seems like as good of time as any to get my feeling about Cubs fans out there. I hate the Cubs and the fans more than any other grudge I carry in sports. Every problem the Cubs have is completely self-inflicted, and they attract all sorts of wannabe martys for fans. Maybe instead of b******* about a curse, maybe they should develop some left handed pitching for once? Just maybe, or maybe the organization whould have a little more incentive to start winning if they had a fan base that demanded it? Instead the Cubs fans eaglerly flock Wrigley like sheep to be shorn. At least the Red Sox finally won they were nearly as bad as the Cubs.


dude, take it easy. im not a big baseball fan anyway, just a casual cubs fan, hate em all if ya want. its just a time killer til OU football.

JohnnyMack
4/20/2006, 07:11 PM
I don't know what this is, and would prefer to have you tell me than to look it up.

Linky bo binky:

http://www.okc.gov/query.html?projects/index.html

Click on MAPS history.


MAPS (Metropolitan Area Projects) is Oklahoma City's visionary capital improvement program for new and upgraded sports, recreation, entertainment, cultural and convention facilities. The projects began on December 14, 1993, when voters approved the MAPS sales tax, and were completed on August 17, 2004 with the dedication of the Ronald J. Norick Downtown Library.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
4/20/2006, 07:25 PM
Linky bo binky:

http://www.okc.gov/query.html?projects/index.html

Click on MAPS history.The link wouldn't come up on the screen for me, but the info below it in your response suggests some projects that might be approprialte for govt.,such as the library. Whatever, if the people voted for it, and it was presented honestly, then I wouldn't be TOTALLY miffed.( I would probably be more agreeable with raising money to improve roads, etc., or, better yet, a tax cut to spur investment in the community)

Harry Beanbag
4/20/2006, 07:52 PM
The only reason the Diamondbacks could have lost money in 2001 was because they weren't eligible for revenue sharing yet. A new franchise has to wait 5 years to get money out of that kitty. They averaged well over 30,000 fans that season. As a matter of fact, they went over 2.5 million in attendance for the first seven years of existence at least, which is over 30,000 per game. This site doesn't have last years attendance numbers, but I would bet they were worse than the first seven years.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/dbacks3.shtml

This year's attendance has been flat out horrible, but the team has sucked badly since 2003. The fans were spoiled miserably with the quick championships, and couple that with Jerry Coalangelo getting sacked in a coup d'etat and the new ownership not knowing or caring about how to put together a decent ballclub, and the fans are staying away.

I actually like BOB. Sure it looks like a Mexican airplane hangar on the outside, but I've always thought it was a nice place to watch a ballgame.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
4/20/2006, 08:00 PM
The BOB is a memorial to govt. corruption. I couldn't believe when they pulled it off, and the media (The Republic and local TV stations) remained inexplicably silent. Only a few local radio talk show people made an issue of the grand larceny.

AllAboutThe'O'
4/20/2006, 11:11 PM
try being a cubs fan, nothing goes right...EVAR
Try being a Rangers fan. At least the Cubs have played in the League Championship Series and have played in the World Series in their past.
Can't say that about the Rangers.

SicEmBaylor
4/21/2006, 12:43 AM
What is this baseball of which you speak? I come from a football state you see...

yermom
4/21/2006, 12:53 AM
dude, take it easy. im not a big baseball fan anyway, just a casual cubs fan, hate em all if ya want. its just a time killer til OU football.

typical Cubs fan ;)

PhxSooner
4/21/2006, 01:04 AM
We went to the Dbacks-Astros game on Easter. Small crowd, but fun game. My kids love going, and they can get hot dogs for $1.50. We always sit in the right field bleachers near the pool and watch the home runs aim for our heads. On Sundays any kid can run the bases after the game. My two had a blast.

I was really ticked off when they built BOB, but have gotten used to having a MLB team in town. Aside from drunk Giants fans, we always have a great time. And when they open the roof at night, you don't feel like you're in a giant hangar...;)

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
4/21/2006, 02:39 AM
We went to the Dbacks-Astros game on Easter. Small crowd, but fun game. My kids love going, and they can get hot dogs for $1.50. We always sit in the right field bleachers near the pool and watch the home runs aim for our heads. On Sundays any kid can run the bases after the game. My two had a blast.

I was really ticked off when they built BOB, but have gotten used to having a MLB team in town. Aside from drunk Giants fans, we always have a great time. And when they open the roof at night, you don't feel like you're in a giant hangar...;) Glad you enjoy it. Do you remember when that guy shot Mary Rose Wilcox(Maricopa county Board of Supervisors) in the butt, trying to kill her, no doubt, a few years after the infamous stealth approval of the stadium? What a shocker!!!