MEDIA TIRING OF RUMSFELD ATTACK! [Archive] - SoonerFans.com Message Boards

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

4/19/2006, 02:10 PM

last i heard it was like 5 former Generals that were in Iraq griping about him

lots of what i have heard about him and the Administration was at odds with military higher-ups

why do the military guys around here like them so much that they can do no wrong?I think there were 6 or 7 retired generals( out of several thousands) that are going after him. The number of military higher-ups who like him go unreported by the media. No surprises there.

yermom

4/19/2006, 02:10 PM

we need video of him killing Oprah

yermom

4/19/2006, 02:16 PM

I think there were 6 or 7 retired generals( out of several thousands) that are going after him. The number of military higher-ups who like him go unreported by the media. No surprises there.

i don't really know, but that number sounds awful high

Shinseki and Powell didn't seem to like his ideas either

slickdawg

4/19/2006, 02:19 PM

we need video of him ****ing Oprah

And what good would that do?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

4/19/2006, 02:20 PM

i don't really know, but that number sounds awful high

Shinseki and Powell didn't seem to like his ideas eitherI said there are thousands of retired generals-not that all of the but 6 or 7 of them endorse Rumsfeld. I don't think Powell really ever wanted to go into Iraq.

usmc-sooner

4/19/2006, 02:21 PM

my 2nd cousin is a retired newspaper reporter and he doesn't like the internet

yermom

4/19/2006, 02:22 PM

that's what i meant, how many retired generals are there? active?

i don't know the numbers, i'm just curious... i would think in the hundreds if i had to guess

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

4/19/2006, 02:22 PM

my 2nd cousin is a retired newspaper reporter and he doesn't like the internetHAHA, heh!

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

4/19/2006, 03:00 PM

that's what i meant, how many retired generals are there? active?

i don't know the numbers, i'm just curious... i would think in the hundreds if i had to guessI too would have thought hundreds rather than thousands, but I heard or read thousands. We could look it up, I guess.

SoonerProphet

4/19/2006, 03:12 PM

lexsooner

4/19/2006, 04:45 PM

If six higher ranking retired generals have come forth, there has got to be something to it. This is rather unprecedented because retired generals rarely come out publically against their former civilian bosses. It goes against everything they have been taught. The retired Marine general Zinni is highly respected both in the military and civilian worlds.

The word was if Rumsfeld had had his way, the initial invasion of Iraq would have been done with Special Forces and air strikes, and General Franks had to do some hard last minute selling to get Rumsfeld to agree to the larger ground invasion force which was used. While it is not exactly unprecedented for civilian leaders to try and dictate military strategy, Rumsfeld's management style over the Pentagon has been bullying and at times rude and disrespectful. He was bound to make enemies in the Pentagon. Plus, it sort of goes without saying his Iraq plans were not exactly well thought-out, downright stupid actually, especially the post invasion "plan," if you can call it that.

Alright, I have convinced myself - he is a jackass who should resign.

Okla-homey

4/19/2006, 04:58 PM

not to keen on my military commanders giving public opinions of their civilians bosses. just seems to smack of insubordination.

he is a ********* though. it'd be cool if zinni called him that in the press.

Something you need to be aware of, and this is real insider stuff. When Rummy came in, and well before 911, he intended to shake up the Army. He believed, rightly IMHO, the Army was too focused on fighting WWIII using conventional forces composed mostly of heavy divisions (tanks, IFV's, s/p arty) which are very powerful, but simply aren't the best tailored forces to use against most 21st century opponents in pop-up hotspots.

Rummy also made folks face up to the fact a very powerful armored division in the US or Germany ain't worth crap if it can't get to the fight in time to make a difference. It is mind-boggling to consider the amount of sealift and rail transport required to get a heavy division from Ft Hood or Ft Stewart to someplace like Afghanistan.

Instead, Rummy proposed a more balanced approach to modern warfighting using more easily transportable special and light forces where they are best suited for the mission, and conventional forces where they make sense.

Problem was, an entire generation of Army senior leaders came up during the Cold War in heavy divisions and saw the ascendancy of special and light forces as a professional threat. Those guys had a cow when Rummy oversaw putting a <gasp> a special forces general in as Army chief of staff right after Shinseki, and <gasp> an AF followed by a Marine general in as CJCS.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

4/19/2006, 05:33 PM

lexsooner

4/19/2006, 05:57 PM

IMHO, Rumsfeld was right in shaking up the Army, which was and still is a slow, heavy Cold War fighting force. This may account for some of the resentments carried by the retired Army generals, though it would not explain why a retired Marine general like Zinni has come out against Rumsfeld.

However, I suspect Rumsfeld's heavy handed management style and abrasive personality also have much to do with it. Not showing up at Shinseki's retirement ceremony was unprecedented behavior by a Defense Secretary and was rude and totally inappropriate.

Anyway, regardless of whether the press is biased or not, the inescapable fact is Iraq is a freakin mess right now, and things have gone very badly after the invasion. Rumsfeld must take at least some of the blame for all of this. We all know when things go badly, someone has to take the hit. All organizations are like this. W is not going to fire Cheney, obviously. Rumsfeld should go, but that is not W's style, since he does not like admitting any mistakes, even praising Brownie during his visit to New Orleans. Rumsfeld may stick around, but I know the history books will rightfully not be kind to him.

SicEmBaylor

4/19/2006, 06:05 PM

I'm just tired of the media.

Scott D

4/19/2006, 06:15 PM

I heard the generals were going after commencement speeches next ;)

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

4/19/2006, 06:32 PM

I heard the generals were going after commencement speeches next ;)I believe those same generals that are complaining about Rummy are quite happy with OU's selection, but not so happy with aggy. We'll likely hear about it in the media.

Octavian

4/19/2006, 07:02 PM

He believed, rightly IMHO, the Army was too focused on fighting WWIII using conventional forces composed mostly of heavy divisions (tanks, IFV's, s/p arty) which are very powerful, but simply aren't the best tailored forces to use against most 21st century opponents in pop-up hotspots.

Yeah but Iraq is no pop-up hotspot.

Many generals are ****ed for a number of reasons but maybe the primary reason is that Rummy reorganized to fight smaller battles (hotspots) w/ lightening quick lethal force.....and then pushed for invading a nation of 25 million people. They're saying Rummy shifted away from conventional forces at the exact time he was preparing a war plan in which they were need the most.

Im not sure if any real change for the better would happen in Iraq just if he resigned...if his successor wouldn't change Iraqi policy, whats the point? I think he should stay w/ the rest of the admn. until the end. Iraq is their baby, their legacy...let em stick it out to the end and let history judge.

usmc-sooner

4/19/2006, 07:26 PM

Yeah but Iraq is no pop-up hotspot.

Many generals are ****ed for a number of reasons but maybe the primary reason is that Rummy reorganized to fight smaller battles (hotspots) w/ lightening quick lethal force.....and then pushed for invading a nation of 25 million people. They're saying Rummy shifted away from conventional forces at the exact time he was preparing a war plan in which they were need the most.

Im not sure if any real change for the better would happen in Iraq just if he resigned...if his successor wouldn't change Iraqi policy, whats the point? I think he should stay w/ the rest of the admn. until the end. Iraq is their baby, their legacy...let em stick it out to the end and let history judge.

last I heard invasion didn't start with a couple of months warning. And as far as that 25 million people country they put up less of a fight than the Connecticut National Guard, the part that is hard is fighting guerilla tactic warfare from insurgents who are trying to block our efforts to help the country that we've liberated not invaded to install democracy. If anyonethought this was going to be a quick process they are too dumb to be allowed to vote.

SicEmBaylor

4/19/2006, 07:33 PM

last I heard invasion didn't start with a couple of months warning. And as far as that 25 million people country they put up less of a fight than the Connecticut National Guard, the part that is hard is fighting guerilla tactic warfare from insurgents who are trying to block our efforts to help the country that we've liberated not invaded to install democracy. If anyonethought this was going to be a quick process they are too dumb to be allowed to vote.

Aye, I don't even think we've gotten republican government totally right in THIS country yet much less a nation that has known it for less than 4 years. I have serious doubts that democracy can really take in a culture that seems to reject the very idea of individual liberty, however if it does (and we should continue to try) it'll be one of the greatest accomplishments in our nation's history.

Octavian

4/19/2006, 07:39 PM

the part that is hard is fighting guerilla tactic warfare from insurgents who are trying to block our efforts to help the country that we've liberated not invaded to install democracy.

agreed.

the part that should've been easy was realizing such a backlash toward occupation would happen...thereby creating the need for a larger fighting force...which is partly why many generals are ****ed.

If anyonethought this was going to be a quick process they are too dumb to be allowed to vote.

SicEm's gonna loooove this. ;)

lexsooner

4/19/2006, 07:46 PM

last I heard invasion didn't start with a couple of months warning. And as far as that 25 million people country they put up less of a fight than the Connecticut National Guard, the part that is hard is fighting guerilla tactic warfare from insurgents who are trying to block our efforts to help the country that we've liberated not invaded to install democracy. If anyonethought this was going to be a quick process they are too dumb to be allowed to vote.

Dang, and I thought we invaded to stop their weapons of mass destruction and Hussein's ties to Al Queda. ;)

I propose any government official who thought the post-invasion would be comprised of grateful Iraqis waving American flags and anxious to see democracy, and accordingly did not develop any coherent post-invasion plan, is too dumb to govern.

royalfan5

4/19/2006, 08:00 PM

Plus, with the installiation of democracy we spent too much time trying to build democracy from the top down w/all the accompanying bells and whistles(like reopening the Baghdad Stock Exchange three months after the invasion) Democracy is a bottom up process, it has to be built at the local level and the local civil society institutions are much more important that making a big show about all these national level instituitons that don't deal that much with the daily life of Joe Q. Iraqi. Trust in the lower echelons of democracy builds trust in the upper levels.

GottaHavePride

4/19/2006, 08:06 PM

Dang, and I thought we invaded to stop their weapons of mass destruction and Hussein's ties to Al Queda. ;)
That was the excuse we used. The real reason was that Saddam wore popped collars, and we just can't leave a popped-collar-wearing ********* in charge of a country.

lexsooner

4/19/2006, 08:17 PM

That was the excuse we used. The real reason was that Saddam wore popped collars, and we just can't leave a popped-collar-wearing ********* in charge of a country.

Personally, I just could not stand seeing so many leaders of one country who had black mustaches.

slickdawg

4/19/2006, 08:50 PM

Just remember that Donald Rumsfeld likes to club baby seals to death.

yermom

4/19/2006, 09:08 PM

Just remember that Donald Rumsfeld likes to club baby seals to death.

who doesn't?

jdsooner

4/19/2006, 11:26 PM

They will regroup. They HATE Rumsfeld.

As do I.

usmc-sooner

4/20/2006, 12:04 AM

Dang, and I thought we invaded to stop their weapons of mass destruction and Hussein's ties to Al Queda. ;)

I propose any government official who thought the post-invasion would be comprised of grateful Iraqis waving American flags and anxious to see democracy, and accordingly did not develop any coherent post-invasion plan, is too dumb to govern.

once again,

there was no invasion

and many of the people of Iraq were more than ready for democracy. Many of them went through much more than you'll ever know. Most liberals left after Sean Penn declared they should just protest the war.

I propose you pick up and serve or just shut up, or give us your plan..............

Gawd I hope my kids never have to rely on you liberals for defense.

picasso

4/20/2006, 12:14 AM

you could say in a sense that the plan was kind of like WWII fighting. you know in a Patton sort of way, breeze through and around the heavy stuff to reach your objective.:D

OklahomaTuba

4/20/2006, 08:30 AM

I propose any government official who thought the post-invasion would be comprised of grateful Iraqis waving American flags and anxious to see democracy, and accordingly did not develop any coherent post-invasion plan, is too dumb to govern.

Its a damn good thing Kerry wasn't elected then, since that was basically his plan, or a least one of his plans, I think.

OklahomaTuba

4/20/2006, 08:38 AM

it'd be cool if zinni called him that in the press.

Speaking of Zinni...

Media Amnesia: Gen. Zinni Briefed Clinton Administration on Secret Iraq War Plan
Posted by Noel Sheppard on April 19, 2006 - 15:00.
In the past couple of weeks, you haven’t been able to swing a dead cat without hitting some retired general complaining about the war in Iraq, and how that nation and its leader represented no imminent threat to America or the globe. One of the more prominent members of the hindsight is 20/20 crowd is former Clinton CENTCOM commander Gen. Anthony Zinni who has now conspicuously stated that he never saw any proof that Saddam possessed weapons of mass destruction. Of course, this has been debunked by the recent revelations of a February 29, 2000 briefing by Zinni to Congress wherein the general made it quite clear that “Iraq remains the most significant near-term threat to U.S. interests in the Arabian Gulf region” stating quite unequivocally that Iraq either possessed or was pursuing WMD.

Yet, another bizarre oddity concerning the media’s acceptance of Zinni’s current position is the revelation that in the year 2000, Zinni actually briefed senior Clinton administration officials concerning a massive military strategy to overthrow Saddam. As reported by the Chicago Tribune on October 2, 2000: “Zinni has briefed senior administration officials on a secret war plan that details how the U.S. military, with limited allied help, would seek to topple Hussein. The effort would be massive, involving possibly as many as half a million troops, according to one knowledgeable official.”
http://newsbusters.org/node/4979

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

4/20/2006, 11:27 AM

All's fair in love and war. The repubz, for the most part, are fighting a different war than the libz.

yermom

4/20/2006, 11:37 AM

Speaking of Zinni...

http://newsbusters.org/node/4979

i don't exactly see conflicting information in that article

the complaints i have heard from the high level military guys was the way Rumsfeld had us go into Iraq, not that we went

JohnnyMack

4/20/2006, 11:49 AM

once again,

there was no invasion

and many of the people of Iraq were more than ready for democracy. Many of them went through much more than you'll ever know. Most liberals left after Sean Penn declared they should just protest the war.

I propose you pick up and serve or just shut up, or give us your plan..............

Gawd I hope my kids never have to rely on you liberals for defense.

I love it when you get all Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men on us. Good stuff.

yermom

4/20/2006, 11:58 AM

maybe i don't know what "invasion" means

n8v_ndn

4/20/2006, 12:32 PM

...I suspect Rumsfeld's heavy handed management style and abrasive personality also have much to do with it. Not showing up at Shinseki's retirement ceremony was unprecedented behavior by a Defense Secretary and was rude and totally inappropriate.

According to eye witnesses to debate at the highest levels of the Administration. ... whenever Powell or Armitage sought to question prisoner treatment issues (in meetings with Rumsfeld), they were forced to endure what our source characterizes as "around the table, coarse, vulgar, frat-boy bully remarks about what these tough guys would do if they ever got their hands on prisoners."
The Nelson Report

"Let me be clear: I failed to recognize how important it was to elevate a matter of such gravity to the highest levels, including the president and the members of Congress."
Donald Rumsfeld
Testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee
May 7, 2004

...Rumsfeld must take at least some of the blame for all of this. We all know when things go badly, someone has to take the hit...Rumsfeld should go...

http://www.bongonews.com/StoryImages/rumsfeld.jpg

SoonerProphet

4/20/2006, 12:35 PM

U.S. military, with limited allied help, would seek to topple Hussein. The effort would be massive, involving possibly as many as half a million troops, according to one knowledgeable official.”

I'll bet if we did invade(liberate:rolleyes:) Iraq with half a million troops they would have greeted us with flowers and such then. That what makes so much sense in regards to these retired commanders, if they only did it my way it'd been so much better. The assumption that hearts and minds would have been changed with 500,000 as opposed to 140,000 is dubious at best.

usmc-sooner

4/20/2006, 01:09 PM

I love it when you get all Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men on us. Good stuff.

I like it when you go all Cindy Sheehan on us. Good stuff

JohnnyMack

4/20/2006, 01:39 PM

I like it when you go all Cindy Sheehan on us. Good stuff

For the 8,432,445th time, just because I don't agree with W's policy in Iraq doesn't make me unamerican.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

4/20/2006, 01:41 PM

For the 8,432,445th time, just because I don't agree with W's policy in Iraq doesn't make me unamerican.Is that the number of people who read the SO?

JohnnyMack

4/20/2006, 01:42 PM

Is that the number of people who read the SO?

That's the number of people still waiting for their sponsor gifts.

FaninAma

4/20/2006, 02:00 PM

If they had just dropped Chuck Norris and Rambo in this damn thing would be over.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

4/20/2006, 03:08 PM

I'm thinking more like...DITKA!

lexsooner

4/20/2006, 04:29 PM

For the 8,432,445th time, just because I don't agree with W's policy in Iraq doesn't make me unamerican.

No, it makes us part of the majority of Americans, if you look at recent polls. It would nice if the world was so simple that you could color things black/white, for us/against us, W supporter/traitor, conservative/liberal, attacking W means you loved Kerry, etc. However it just isn't so. It's frightening how many folks just can't get this fact.