View Full Version : Flag Banned at school...
OklahomaTuba
4/4/2006, 03:50 PM
Patriotism = a bad thing, I guess.
I wonder if burning it would still be allowed? Damn Jingoist facists.
(CBS4) WESTMINSTER, Colo. The immigration debate and demonstrations caused a middle school in Adams County to change their dress code.
Students at Shaw Heights Middle School are no longer allowed to wear anything that's patriotic, including camouflage pants, because they have become a political symbol for a version of patriotism.
"It upsets me that we cannot support our troops, the military," said Kirsten Golgart, an eighth grader who was told she'd be suspended if she didn't change her clothes. "We can't support our country. If we're American, I think we should be proud to be an American."
A letter went home to parents last week that explained for student safety, no clothes were allowed with political messages or flags of any sort.
http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/local_story_094003340.html
TUSooner
4/4/2006, 03:55 PM
We are a nation of wussies. GUTLESS WUSSIES, I tell ya, afraid to annoy anyone who might whine and bitch. It makes me wanna just go out a gratuitously p!ss somebody off.
Osce0la
4/4/2006, 03:58 PM
We are a nation of wussies. GUTLESS WUSSIES, I tell ya, afraid to annoy anyone who might whine and bitch. It makes me wanna just go out a gratuitously p!ss somebody off.
I agree 110%...You have GOT to be kidding me. So now we can't even show pride in our own country, within our borders, because it has become offensive to those who shouldn't be here in the first place. If I was at that school I'd organize something where everyone would come to school with a flag draped over their shoulders and signs demanding that we take back OUR country...this is absolutely pathetic.
NormanPride
4/4/2006, 04:02 PM
Wow, that's insane. Do you think there's more to the story? Like maybe the "patriots" were being disruptive? I just can't believe this is constitutional...
StoopTroup
4/4/2006, 04:03 PM
One word: COLORADO
mdklatt
4/4/2006, 04:22 PM
A letter went home to parents last week that explained for student safety, no clothes were allowed with political messages or flags of any sort.
It's not just the US flag.
camouflage pants?
Li'l John is gonna be ****ed
i wonder if this makes it into South Park anytime soon
NormanPride
4/4/2006, 04:26 PM
See, after reading the article, it sounds like the "patriots" were causing disorder. I imagine it was on both sides, but the easiest thing to do is implement a temporary dress code. It's a preventative measure, not a symbol of anti-patriotism.
Vaevictis
4/4/2006, 04:29 PM
You want something to blame, blame the lawsuit and school-as-daycare culture.
If it's been presented to her as "this could cause fights in our school" and she doesn't take preventative measures, and someone gets hurt in a fight, she loses his job as the school district gets sued for some random kind of negligence.
Poor fscker is in a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't situation.
See, after reading the article, it sounds like the "patriots" were causing disorder. I imagine it was on both sides, but the easiest thing to do is implement a temporary dress code. It's a preventative measure, not a symbol of anti-patriotism.
i'll defer to the above "WUSSIES" comment
NormanPride
4/4/2006, 04:32 PM
i'll defer to the above "WUSSIES" comment
Which would you have, whining about a dress code or kids in hospitals?
StoopTroup
4/4/2006, 04:33 PM
I wonder if it would be ok to come to school in dead buffalo skins? :D
mdklatt
4/4/2006, 04:34 PM
Which would you have, whining about a dress code or kids in hospitals?
And schools aren't exactly a bastion of free speech in the first place.
only the wussy ones would be in hospitals ;)
NormanPride
4/4/2006, 04:39 PM
:D
TUSooner
4/4/2006, 07:12 PM
It's not just the US flag.
So...... "no speech" = "free speech"?
TUSooner
4/4/2006, 07:14 PM
See, after reading the article, it sounds like the "patriots" were causing disorder. I imagine it was on both sides, but the easiest thing to do is implement a temporary dress code. It's a preventative measure, not a symbol of anti-patriotism.
What? You read the article... hmmmmmm. I may consider doing that myself. Later. ;)
TUSooner
4/4/2006, 07:16 PM
And schools aren't exactly a bastion of free speech in the first place.
If you try to be too sensible, I may have to read the &@%# article.
Okla-homey
4/4/2006, 07:20 PM
If I had a boy in that school I'd put him in a pair of cammys, a USA Olympics t-shirt and send him to school. If they sent him home, I'd send him back. If they suspended him, I'd send him back dressed the same way after the suspension. If they expelled him, I'd sue. You know who I'd get to represent us? The mutherlovin' ACLU.
Zang!
Occasionally, I am reminded of the great Jack Nicholson's "Joker" character in "Batman" part the first; "This town [country] needs an enema!"
usmc-sooner
4/4/2006, 07:25 PM
they shouldn't be allowed to speak English in school it's so insensative to the illegal aliens.
sooneron
4/4/2006, 07:33 PM
Hmm, aren't camo shorts all the **** at abercrombie and fitch this year?
NormanPride
4/4/2006, 07:56 PM
If I had a boy in that school I'd put him in a pair of cammys, a USA Olympics t-shirt and send him to school. If they sent him home, I'd send him back. If they suspended him, I'd send him back dressed the same way after the suspension. If they expelled him, I'd sue. You know who I'd get to represent us? The mutherlovin' ACLU.
Zang!
Occasionally, I am reminded of the great Jack Nicholson's "Joker" character in "Batman" part the first; "This town [country] needs an enema!"
And you know what? You'd probably win something. But in the end, it'd just make things worse. This whole escapade should have died out at the local level. Who cares if a school bans marching around like a bunch of antagonizing zealots for a couple months? I doubt something like this is permanent, and by causing all that trouble and suing the school for money it probably doesn't have, all you're going to do is get a principal who cares about the safety of kids fired, drown the school district in debt, lower the level of education of ALL the kids, and make YOUR kid a target.
I know you're just standing up for your rights, and I respect that. I felt the same way when I first looked at the article. But I've also been on the other side, where people are just trying to leave **** well enough alone, and someone makes a big mess out of it because they feel like they "should".
sooneron
4/4/2006, 08:06 PM
You really can't get a feeling for the "tone" of what's going on at the school by the article. There's a fine line between patriotism and nationalism.
Okla-homey
4/4/2006, 08:18 PM
And you know what? You'd probably win something. But in the end, it'd just make things worse. This whole escapade should have died out at the local level. Who cares if a school bans marching around like a bunch of antagonizing zealots for a couple months? I doubt something like this is permanent, and by causing all that trouble and suing the school for money it probably doesn't have, all you're going to do is get a principal who cares about the safety of kids fired, drown the school district in debt, lower the level of education of ALL the kids, and make YOUR kid a target.
I know you're just standing up for your rights, and I respect that. I felt the same way when I first looked at the article. But I've also been on the other side, where people are just trying to leave **** well enough alone, and someone makes a big mess out of it because they feel like they "should".
No sweat, it wouldn't happen anyway because like the Gore's and the Clinton's, we didn't believe public schools were best for our kid...this sort of crap is one of the biggest reasons for that judgment.
Here's the thing, if I were forced to be in that situation, I believe people should stand up for their rights as citizens in the tradition of MLK whose assasination occurred on this day. If King's legacy stands for anything it stands for the proposition that tyranny rules when good people acquiesce to this sort of stuff.
IMHO, if it does lead to drowning the school district in debt, go ahead and shutter the place, fire the educrat who runs the joint and good riddance. The greater good will be advanced.
TUSooner
4/4/2006, 08:20 PM
No sweat, it wouldn't happen anyway because like the Gore's and the Clinton's, we didn't believe public schools were best for our kid...this sort of crap is one of the biggest reasons for that judgment.
Here's the thing, if I were forced to be in that situation, I believe people should stand up for their rights as citizens in the tradition of MLK whose assasination occurred on this day. If King's legacy stands for anything it stands for the proposition that tyranny rules when good people acquiesce to this sort of stuff.
IMHO, if it does lead to drowning the school district in debt, go ahead and shutter the place, fire the educrat you runs the joint and good riddance. The greater good will be advanced.
Homey for President!
Scott D
4/4/2006, 08:50 PM
If I had a boy in that school I'd put him in a pair of cammys, a USA Olympics t-shirt and send him to school. If they sent him home, I'd send him back. If they suspended him, I'd send him back dressed the same way after the suspension. If they expelled him, I'd sue. You know who I'd get to represent us? The mutherlovin' ACLU.
Zang!
Occasionally, I am reminded of the great Jack Nicholson's "Joker" character in "Batman" part the first; "This town [country] needs an enema!"
in a bit of irony, have you read up on that free speech in school matter that happened in NJ I think it was that the ACLU stood up for?
OklahomaTuba
4/4/2006, 08:51 PM
There's a fine line between patriotism and nationalism.
Yes. Why how dare people show love for their country thats being flooded with illegals and during a time of war.
jk the sooner fan
4/4/2006, 08:51 PM
And you know what? You'd probably win something. But in the end, it'd just make things worse. This whole escapade should have died out at the local level. Who cares if a school bans marching around like a bunch of antagonizing zealots for a couple months? I doubt something like this is permanent, and by causing all that trouble and suing the school for money it probably doesn't have, all you're going to do is get a principal who cares about the safety of kids fired, drown the school district in debt, lower the level of education of ALL the kids, and make YOUR kid a target.
I know you're just standing up for your rights, and I respect that. I felt the same way when I first looked at the article. But I've also been on the other side, where people are just trying to leave **** well enough alone, and someone makes a big mess out of it because they feel like they "should".
if you dont stand for something, you'll fall for anything! :)
sooneron
4/4/2006, 08:56 PM
Yes. Why how dare people show love for their country thats being flooded with illegals and during a time of war.
I guess your brownshirt is at the cleaners?
BTW- way to read only what you wanted to in my post-
http://www.tonyrogers.com/images/2004_colo_utah/sixshooter/cartman_retarded.jpg
Gandalf_The_Grey
4/4/2006, 09:29 PM
It's not just the US flag.
I guess that will **** off every other Nationality in the Colorado area.....damm them for not allowing the Kenyans to show their pride ;)
usmc-sooner
4/5/2006, 12:33 AM
And you know what? You'd probably win something. But in the end, it'd just make things worse. This whole escapade should have died out at the local level. Who cares if a school bans marching around like a bunch of antagonizing zealots for a couple months? I doubt something like this is permanent, and by causing all that trouble and suing the school for money it probably doesn't have, all you're going to do is get a principal who cares about the safety of kids fired, drown the school district in debt, lower the level of education of ALL the kids, and make YOUR kid a target.
I know you're just standing up for your rights, and I respect that. I felt the same way when I first looked at the article. But I've also been on the other side, where people are just trying to leave **** well enough alone, and someone makes a big mess out of it because they feel like they "should".
I'd like to be PC
that was a pretty well thought out response for a non ball having generation
when i was in middle school if all i needed to do to to get out of school was to put on some camo pants, i'd have a pretty small wardrobe :D
when i was in middle school if all i needed to do to to get out of school was to put on some camo pants, i'd have a pretty small wardrobe :D
rebel :D
Gandalf_The_Grey
4/5/2006, 02:43 AM
I hear the American Flag posted a picture of Camel Toe and cigerretes!
TheHumanAlphabet
4/5/2006, 06:53 AM
It's not just the US flag.
IT SHOULD BE ALL FLAGS EXCEPT the AMERICAN and the COLORADO state FLAG!!! :rcmad:
That is what is so wrong with the invertebrate slim sucking educational administrators...My kids are SOOO going to be homeschooled by my ex-teacher wife and I!!!
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 08:42 AM
I guess your brownshirt is at the cleaners?
BTW- way to read only what you wanted to in my post-
http://www.tonyrogers.com/images/2004_colo_utah/sixshooter/cartman_retarded.jpg
And the rest of your post even mattered to the part I quoted? Please. Perhaps you should read what you post more often?
As for the picture. Thanks. I think that shows maturity, posting pictures of retarded cartoon characters, when someone replys to your post. You know, instead of actually answering back and stuff. But then again, personal attacks and posting picture might be easier for some people.
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 08:48 AM
Who cares if a school bans marching around like a bunch of antagonizing zealots for a couple months?
Just a thought, but maybe they should punish the kids for breaking existing school rules if they are doing this? I am sure they have them to combat disruptive behavior.
But I guess its better to ban the flag from the school. Just like God and the Military.
Just makes things so much better in our public schools by getting those vile things out, doesn't it? No wonder our schools are doing so damn well these days.
OU Adonis
4/5/2006, 08:50 AM
You really can't get a feeling for the "tone" of what's going on at the school by the article. There's a fine line between patriotism and nationalism.
And just what is wrong with Nationalism?
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 08:54 AM
And just what is wrong with Nationalism?
Nationalism = bad cause America = bad.
A very common theme among the lefty crazies out there who see America as evil.
sooneron
4/5/2006, 09:55 AM
The only problem with nationalism is that it can easily escalate to things such as racism and anti-semitism and any other type of bigotry.
You guys seem to fail to recognize that we are talking about 13-14 year old boys here. I am sure that is what the biggest part of the demographic was. Of course the newspaper puts the mic and camera in the face of the seemingly ostracized blond teenage girl that just want to support our troops. For all we know, there may have been groups of kids (I would venture to guess white) walking around the school and intimidating anyone that had a last name that ended with - ez. We aren't exactly talking about the best age group to take it upon themselves as being one for a cause. Hormones are raging and they are easily whipped into a mob type mentality for fear of being in the wrong clique. Maybe things aren't that way. However, the way kids at that age are and can act, it is no stretch. IMO
BTW- where did I say that America is evil? I think America is great. It's a place where I can say what I want and make boatloads of money as well.
jk the sooner fan
4/5/2006, 09:59 AM
those 13-14 year old boys will be men one day, with formed opinions...frankly i'd rather them have those feelings based on patriotism than some liberal PC bull****......
so if you couldnt make "boatloads" of money here, would your opinion be different? is that all America has to offer for you...aside from the freedom of speech?
sooneron
4/5/2006, 10:05 AM
those 13-14 year old boys will be men one day, with formed opinions...frankly i'd rather them have those feelings based on patriotism than some liberal PC bull****......
so if you couldnt make "boatloads" of money here, would your opinion be different? is that all America has to offer for you...aside from the freedom of speech?
OK, you just totally missed my point. We have no idea what the actions are that occurred. THAT is what I said. I guess you like the fact that there may be kids being bullied and **** because of where their PARENTS chose to raise them. I would venture to guess that you would encourage this? I mean if you're going to get out your jump to conclusions mat, I can.
This is the sort of behavior which I believe would bring this sort of action about by the school. However, the school in Longmont that was mentioned as a matter of factly at the end. I have no idea about, since NO info was given.
Note to self don't post anything tongue in cheek again -as far as your last question.
jk the sooner fan
4/5/2006, 10:10 AM
sorry, but i think there has to be SOME level of assimilation by any immigrant that wants to move here and drop roots....
do you think the kids that may be harrassing the immigrant kids (i guess this is the point you're trying to make) will stop if they cant wear the red/white/blue? like you, i dont know the background story here, but it seems like a knee jerk reaction, and punishment of the masses for the actions of a few
doubtful....bullies are bullies, no matter what
mdklatt
4/5/2006, 10:21 AM
those 13-14 year old boys will be men one day, with formed opinions...frankly i'd rather them have those feelings based on patriotism than some liberal PC bull****......
You can't support the troops or your country unless you're wearing an American flag? Bull****. Have all the yellow ribbon stickers in America prevented one American casualty overseas? Highly doubtful. Blah blah blah no dispcipline in schools these days, but when one school is attempting to correct a discipline problem everybody gets their panties in a bunch. Court cases have repeatedly shown that kids in school do not have First Amedment protections, BTW. Maybe these kids in Colorado should hire the ACLU. Let's see...valuing style over substance and worrying about people's feelings getting hurt because they can't wear what they want to wear--if I didn't know any better I would say that was liberal PC bull****.
jk the sooner fan
4/5/2006, 10:22 AM
You can't support the troops or your country unless you're wearing an American flag? Bull****. Have all the yellow ribbon stickers in America prevented one American casualty overseas?
thats funny, i dont remember saying or implying any of that.....
OU Adonis
4/5/2006, 10:25 AM
OK, you just totally missed my point. We have no idea what the actions are that occurred. THAT is what I said. I guess you like the fact that there may be kids being bullied and **** because of where their PARENTS chose to raise them. I would venture to guess that you would encourage this? I mean if you're going to get out your jump to conclusions mat, I can.
This is the sort of behavior which I believe would bring this sort of action about by the school. However, the school in Longmont that was mentioned as a matter of factly at the end. I have no idea about, since NO info was given.
Note to self don't post anything tongue in cheek again -as far as your last question.
First off, Fascism isn't Nationalism, but regardless lets take a look at Nationalism.
nationalism
n 1: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: patriotism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=patriotism)] 2: the doctrine that your national culture and interests are superior to any other [ant: multiculturalism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=multiculturalism), internationalism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=internationalism)] 3: the aspiration for national independence felt by people under foreign domination 4: the doctrine that nations should act independently (rather than collectively) to attain their goals [ant: internationalism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=internationalism)]
So what your saying Ron is that we should not say that 1) USA is the best country on the earth 2) We should let the UN run our policy
Could it lead to bigotry? Absolutely. But its no guarentee. Money (and capitalism)and wealth can lead to envy, theft, and unsavory business practices but I don't see us going to communism anytime soon.
sooneron
4/5/2006, 10:27 AM
sorry, but i think there has to be SOME level of assimilation by any immigrant that wants to move here and drop roots....
do you think the kids that may be harrassing the immigrant kids (i guess this is the point you're trying to make) will stop if they cant wear the red/white/blue? like you, i dont know the background story here, but it seems like a knee jerk reaction, and punishment of the masses for the actions of a few
doubtful....bullies are bullies, no matter what
Right, but when the bullies start waving flags and saying it's patriotic to act like them, there's the rub. As someone mentioned earlier, Well it is Colorado. I would guess post- Columbine, diffusing situations that may polarize a school would seem like the best measure as quickly as possible in any way. Whether your dem or rep, it's still the generally accepted thing to be patriotic. I know that may surprise some people here that not all dems hate America. It's pretty easy to get people to jump on your side if you have a flag in your hand and an army jacket on. And kids are really impressionable at that age.
And one other thing, the girl in the article bitches about 400 kids paying for the acts of 100, well, that's the way life is!
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 10:28 AM
Seems this idea of banning American Patriotism is gaining popular support within the "education" community.
SAN DIEGO -- In the wake of last week's immigration-reform protests, one school district is taking drastic measures, banning all symbols of patriotism, both U.S. and Mexican.
School officials in Oceanside now say that flags -- whether they are U.S. or Mexican or any other country's -- have now become a divider on campuses, saying that some students are using them to taunt other studentshttp://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/8439483/detail.html
Sounds like the civil war, doesn't it?
What a ****-tard. I guess he forgot which country he just happens to be in, and which one pays his salary?
OU Adonis
4/5/2006, 10:29 AM
Whether your dem or rep, it's still the generally accepted thing to be patriotic.
And you know what? Everyone SHOULD be patriotic. In the grand scheme of things, there are very few things the government actually asks from us, and one of them SHOULD be for us to be patriotic.
sooneron
4/5/2006, 10:30 AM
First off, Fascism isn't Nationalism, but regardless lets take a look at Nationalism.
nationalism
n 1: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: patriotism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=patriotism)] 2: the doctrine that your national culture and interests are superior to any other [ant: multiculturalism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=multiculturalism), internationalism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=internationalism)] 3: the aspiration for national independence felt by people under foreign domination 4: the doctrine that nations should act independently (rather than collectively) to attain their goals [ant: internationalism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=internationalism)]
So what your saying Ron is that we should not say that 1) USA is the best country on the earth 2) We should let the UN run our policy
Could it lead to bigotry? Absolutely. But its no guarentee. Money (and capitalism)and wealth can lead to envy, theft, and unsavory business practices but I don't see us going to communism anytime soon.
Definition Number two is where problems arise.
And I do think people that are in this country should assimilate in some way. Trust me, I run into way too many people that don't, or can barely speak English on a daily basis.
What the Hell does the UN have to do with what I'm saying? Nice attempt there.
mdklatt
4/5/2006, 10:30 AM
thats funny, i dont remember saying or implying any of that.....
That's the implication of this entire thread. Why these poor kids are just trying to show their true patriotic feelings, and it's un-American to not let them wear patriotic clothing. Never mind that most people think school uniforms are a good idea. It's the same damn thing--the actions of a few effect the privileges of all. Of course it's unfair, but that's what school is all about; it's good training for the real world. Perhaps this school overreacted, but is it really a big deal?
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 10:31 AM
nationalism
n 1: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: patriotism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=patriotism)] 2: the doctrine that your national culture and interests are superior to any other [ant: multiculturalism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=multiculturalism), internationalism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=internationalism)] 3: the aspiration for national independence felt by people under foreign domination 4: the doctrine that nations should act independently (rather than collectively) to attain their goals [ant: internationalism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=internationalism)].
I am with SoonerRon on this. This kind of thinking isn't acceptable AT ALL!
jk the sooner fan
4/5/2006, 10:31 AM
Right, but when the bullies start waving flags and saying it's patriotic to act like them, there's the rub. As someone mentioned earlier, Well it is Colorado. I would guess post- Columbine, diffusing situations that may polarize a school would seem like the best measure as quickly as possible in any way. Whether your dem or rep, it's still the generally accepted thing to be patriotic. I know that may surprise some people here that not all dems hate America. It's pretty easy to get people to jump on your side if you have a flag in your hand and an army jacket on. And kids are really impressionable at that age.
And one other thing, the girl in the article bitches about 400 kids paying for the acts of 100, well, that's the way life is!
instead of banning the flag, why not just go with school uniforms......khaki pants and white polo's seem to work everywhere else
i still dont think it changes the attitudes and actions of those kids.....those are the type of kids who are going to get enough of that at home, that it carries over to school.....no matter what they have on
OU Adonis
4/5/2006, 10:33 AM
Definition Number two is where problems arise.
And I do think people that are in this country should assimilate in some way. Trust me, I run into way too many people that don't, or can barely speak English on a daily basis.
What the Hell does the UN have to do with what I'm saying? Nice attempt there.
So your basically saying that the US culture and way of life is no way superior to the rest of the world?
You said nationalism was bad, that was in direct reference to the belief that one nation should govern itself and not be lead by a broader coalition.
mdklatt
4/5/2006, 10:34 AM
Seems this idea of banning American Patriotism is gaining popular support within the "education" community.
Your idea of patriotism revolves around clothing? How sad.
OU Adonis
4/5/2006, 10:36 AM
Your idea of patriotism revolves around clothing? How sad.
Actually thats the easiest way to show patriotism.
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 10:38 AM
Your idea of patriotism revolves around clothing? How sad.
Hmm, did you read what I posted MDK?
If you did, you would have seen this little nugget...
School officials in Oceanside now say that flags -- whether they are U.S. or Mexican or any other country's -- have now become a divider on campuses
How sad you missed that part.
Vaevictis
4/5/2006, 10:38 AM
The only problem with nationalism is that it can easily escalate to things such as racism and anti-semitism and any other type of bigotry.
Not to mention that it has been the favorite tool of dictators rising to power in the past 100 years or so.
Nationalism is a potential problem because it is a very strong emotion that can be easily manipulated. It can engender a mob mentality which is then easily manipulated by charismatic men, and can ... "cause" people to do things they would normally consider reprehensible.
A certain amount of nationalism is not a bad thing (it is critical in maintaining a modern army), but it is certainly a double-edged sword.
sooneron
4/5/2006, 10:39 AM
So your basically saying that the US culture and way of life is no way superior to the rest of the world?
You said nationalism was bad, that was in direct reference to the belief that one nation should govern itself and not be lead by a broader coalition.
Where did I say Nationalism is bad? I said it can lead to bad things. Try to ****ing read my post next time.
You know what? All you're going to do is put words in my mouth. You and tuba are brilliant at this.
out
OU Adonis
4/5/2006, 10:40 AM
Not to mention that it has been the favorite tool of dictators rising to power in the past 100 years or so.
Nationalism is a potential problem because it is a very strong emotion that can be easily manipulated. It can engender a mob mentality which is then easily manipulated by charismatic men, and can ... "cause" people to do things they would normally consider reprehensible.
A certain amount of nationalism is not a bad thing (it is critical in maintaining a modern army), but it is certainly a double-edged sword.
Thats how ANY emotion can be. Love can be the same way. It can drive people to murder. Its love for ones country.
Why must you hate love? ;)
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 10:40 AM
Not to mention that it has been the favorite tool of dictators rising to power in the past 100 years or so.
As if thats the ONLY tool.
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 10:41 AM
You know what? All you're going to do is put words in my mouth. You and tuba are brilliant at this.
out
Must have run out of retarded cartoon characters to post. :rolleyes:
OU Adonis
4/5/2006, 10:44 AM
Where did I say Nationalism is bad? I said it can lead to bad things. Try to ****ing read my post next time.
You know what? All you're going to do is put words in my mouth. You and tuba are brilliant at this.
out
Well you know us concervatives will put words in your mouths.. .. it sure beats the heck out of what a lib will try to put in your mouth. ;)
The decision my wife and I made to homeschool our kids is looking better and better every day. I don't care how pragmatic it is, you don't ban the US flag on American soil.
Hatfield
4/5/2006, 10:51 AM
nationalism also isn't patriotism...
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 10:51 AM
I don't care how pragmatic it is, you don't ban the US flag on American soil.
First God is banned, than country.
This is the left's plan for our kiddos.
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 10:53 AM
nationalism also isn't patriotism...
Seems you missed it.
nationalism
n 1: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: patriotism]
mdklatt
4/5/2006, 10:57 AM
Hmm, did you read what I posted MDK?
If you did, you would have seen this little nugget...
I stand corrected. Your idea of patriotism revolves around fabric in general. How sad.
Did you notice this part in the article you quoted?
"The school has to be able to show a strong likelihood that there is going to material and substantial disruption of school, and if they don’t meet that standard, then they can't censor student speech," said Kevin Neenan of the ACLU.
Well, I'll be damned. The ACLU is standing up for the American flag. What a bunch of hippie communist liz.
Hatfield
4/5/2006, 10:58 AM
when was God banned? Can you ban God?
I understand the knee jerk rabble rabble about this, but what else would you have the school do? Colorado has a large hispanic population and it is easy for me to see children going over the top and causing disturbances with the flag as a prop. It probably has nothing to do with nationalism or patriotism, but rather status...and showing others that they are better than them.
I find the temp. baneing to be rational and legit until things cool down.
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 11:01 AM
I stand corrected. Your idea of patriotism revolves around fabric in general. How sad.
Hmm, so flags and patriotic clothing aren't symbols of patriotism huh?
Wow.
Hatfield
4/5/2006, 11:01 AM
Patriotism- the feeling of admiration for a way of life etc. and the willingness to defend it against attack.
Nationalism- the feeling that your way of life, country, or ethnic group were superior to others. These types of feelings lead a group to attempt to impose their morality on any given situation.
you recognize the difference right? One is more passive while the other is more aggressive.
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 11:02 AM
Patriotism- the feeling of admiration for a way of life etc. and the willingness to defend it against attack.
Nationalism- the feeling that your way of life, country, or ethnic group were superior to others. These types of feelings lead a group to attempt to impose their morality on any given situation.
you recognize the difference right? One is more passive while the other is more aggressive.
And again...
nationalism
n 1: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: patriotism]
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 11:03 AM
I find the temp. baneing to be rational and legit until things cool down.
Very open minded response indeed. :rolleyes:
Oh well, so much for that free-speech thing, huh?
I wonder, under this thought process you find so rational, can we ban everything that makes people angry now?
colleyvillesooner
4/5/2006, 11:04 AM
http://www.aaaplay.com/new/big/MERRY-GO-%20ROUND.jpg
Hatfield
4/5/2006, 11:12 AM
Very open minded response indeed. :rolleyes:
Oh well, so much for that free-speech thing, huh?
I wonder, under this thought process you find so rational, can we ban everything that makes people angry now?
public schools aren't a de facto free speech zone. Especially at the non collegiate level. This point has been made numerous times throughout this thread. Please stop spewing out that nonsense because it isn't relevant to the topic.
How is my response not open minded? It is easy for you to type that now if you could provide some rationale that would be super.
and no we can't ban everything that makes people angry now...that is foolish don't you think.
OU Adonis
4/5/2006, 11:12 AM
http://www.aaaplay.com/new/big/MERRY-GO-%20ROUND.jpg
Stanley
oh wait, we weren't playing picture association...
Hatfield
4/5/2006, 11:12 AM
And again...
feel free to ignore the subtle differences between the 2 words with similar meanings.
mdklatt
4/5/2006, 11:15 AM
Actually thats the easiest way to show patriotism.
And also the most insignificant. America is not defined by people wearing right, white, and blue underwear. Supporting the troops goes far beyond slapping a yellow ribbon sticker on your car. I'm not saying that these symbols are a bad thing, but for a lot of people that's as deep as the commitment gets. The yellow ribbon used to be reserved for people who actually had family serving overseas. That's the commitment, not the ribbon itself. Now any yahoo can buy himself some patriotism with a $2.99 window cling.
Hmmm...a yellow ribbon sticker--a symbol of a symbol. How meta.
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 11:16 AM
How is my response not open minded? It is easy for you to type that now if you could provide some rationale that would be super.
and no we can't ban everything that makes people angry now...that is foolish don't you think.
Of course its foolish, just like banning the US flag at a US school, cause it upsets the messicans and others who obviously don't know what country they are in. But you seem to think thats OK.
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 11:19 AM
Hmmm...a yellow ribbon sticker--a symbol of a symbol. How meta.
Maybe those should be banned as well? I am sure Hat would agree.
Hatfield
4/5/2006, 11:19 AM
When children are using our flag in a disrespectful and hateful manner in order to cause disturbances and crap on other nationalities, I find that offensive to everything the flag stands for....that is why I don't have a problem with a ban on all flags.
You act like only the american flag was banned and we poor americans are the victims here....totally ignoring what got the school to the point of needing this baneing.
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 11:21 AM
When children are using our flag in a disrespectful and hateful manner in order to cause disturbances and crap on other nationalities, I find that offensive to everything the flag stands for....that is why I don't have a problem with a ban on all flags.
Someone got stabbed with a pen when I was in highschool. Perhaps those should be banned as well?
Hatfield
4/5/2006, 11:21 AM
Maybe those should be banned as well? I am sure Hat would agree.
I am sure you have never understood anyone's opposing position to you. what would be the authority to support banning a yellow ribbon on a private persons property?
Hatfield
4/5/2006, 11:21 AM
Someone got stabbed with a pen when I was in highschool. Perhaps those should be banned as well?
perhaps you could stay on topic...and maybe respond to what I said.
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 11:23 AM
When children are using speech in a disrespectful and hateful manner in order to cause disturbances and crap on other nationalities, I find that offensive to everything that freedom of speech stands for....that is why I don't have a problem with a ban on all speech.
Hmm, I think I see your point.
mdklatt
4/5/2006, 11:24 AM
Hmm, so flags and patriotic clothing aren't symbols of patriotism huh?
No, that's all they are--symbols. You can burn every American flag across the country and patriotism will still exist. Merely wearing or waving a flag is not patriotism, although that and setting off bottle rockets in a drunken haze on the Fourth of July is as deep as patriotism gets for a lot of people.
Why do you value symbol over substance? Are you a liberal or something?
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 11:25 AM
I am sure you have never understood anyone's opposing position to you. what would be the authority to support banning a yellow ribbon on a private persons property?
Well, cause it offended someone obviously, like MDK.
I mean, how dare someone pretend to support their nation and military with false and stupid symbols like fake ribbons and stuff. If only we could all be truly patriotic like MDK, instead of just faking it.
mdklatt
4/5/2006, 11:26 AM
Maybe those should be banned as well? I am sure Hat would agree.
It wouldn't bother me if they did because they're just symbols--symbols that have lost all meaning.
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 11:27 AM
No, that's all they are--symbols. You can burn every American flag across the country and patriotism will still exist. Merely wearing or waving a flag is not patriotism
I bet these guys would agree with you 100%!
http://www.vw.cc.va.us/vwhansd/HIS122/Images/Iwo%20Jima.gif
Vaevictis
4/5/2006, 11:28 AM
As if thats the ONLY tool.
An assault rifle isn't the only tool you can use to kill a person, but you'd be a fool to ignore the 8 year old waving it around like it's a toy.
I'm not saying nationalism is automatically a *bad* thing. What I'm saying is that it is a *dangerous* thing. Respect its power, and use it carefully and judiciously like you would any dangerous thing.
mdklatt
4/5/2006, 11:30 AM
I bet these guys would agree with you 100%!
Yes, the only meaningful thing about soldiers sacrificing their lives in battle is the raising of a flag afterwards. :rolleyes:
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 11:30 AM
I'm not saying nationalism is automatically a *bad* thing. What I'm saying is that it is a *dangerous* thing. Respect its power, and use it carefully and judiciously like you would any dangerous thing.
a corn cobb can be a dangerous thing as well.
Maybe we should ban those as well?
I just LOVE this new liberal thinking! If it can be dangerous or offends someone, lets ban it!
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 11:31 AM
Yes, soldiers on a battlefield are exactly the same as what I'm talking about. :rolleyes:
You said the flag was nothing basically.
Funny, how those soldiers thought it was important to risk their lives in order to fly the flag, isn't it?
mdklatt
4/5/2006, 11:34 AM
Funny, how those soldiers thought it was important to risk their lives in order to fly the flag, isn't it?
You really think they were risking their lives to fly a flag? Oh brother.
Don't we have any veterans here who can describe what they were risking their lives for? I'm sure it was for a lot more than a piece of cloth.
1stTimeCaller
4/5/2006, 11:36 AM
you clowns let Tuba drag you down into the dredges of discussion again?
jk the sooner fan
4/5/2006, 11:38 AM
what the hell will those kids say the pledge of allegiance to every morning?
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 11:39 AM
You really think they were risking their lives to fly a flag? Oh brother.
Actually, they did.
They thought it was important enough to raise the flag, that they did this even as Japanese snipers were still targeting them.
Its a great story, one that somehow I don't expect you to read, and maybe we should ban as well.
sooneron
4/5/2006, 11:40 AM
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=134973
mdklatt
4/5/2006, 11:40 AM
what the hell will those kids say the pledge of allegiance to every morning?
I don't think they're removing all flags from campus, just not allowing students to bring in their own personal flags.
OklahomaTuba
4/5/2006, 11:41 AM
what the hell will those kids say the pledge of allegiance to every morning?
It means nothing. Those kids aren't real Americans, just doing what their told.
Another obviously offensive act that must be banned ASAP.
Vaevictis
4/5/2006, 11:45 AM
a corn cobb can be a dangerous thing as well.
Maybe we should ban those as well?
I'm thinking that if some guy is waving around a hypothetical corn-cobb-o'-doom as you posit and it presents a clear danger, you probably ought to do something to relieve that person of the hypothetical corn-cobb-o'-doom.
In this case, the principal felt that kids were potentially going to be causing each other actual physical harm over this, and as a short term solution, I don't think removing the object of contention in order to maintain the peace is an *entirely* unreasonable action to take.
To be clear: A ban that lasts longer than the immediate danger is wrong. But for a short period to ratchet down tensions and give people a chance to chill the f*ck out? Probably okay in my book.
Vaevictis
4/5/2006, 11:46 AM
you clowns let Tuba drag you down into responding to hysterical ranting again?
Fixed it for you.
1stTimeCaller
4/5/2006, 11:47 AM
Fixed it for you.
I thought everyone knew that's what discussing anything with Tuba is?
Scott D
4/5/2006, 11:49 AM
congrats on totally overreacting. Tuba you wouldn't have given this story a second thought or even a first look had they been changing to enforce a school uniform dress code.
Nothing in that article says the flag is banned and apparently is flying on the flagpole in front of the school. It barely mentions a second school in another place where all flags have been banned.
How dare school authorities take it upon themselves to diffuse potentially violent situations in their school. Perhaps we should be encouraging all schools to strive to be the next Columbine then.
There, now that I've not taken your stance feel free to incorrectly call me a lib again.
Vaevictis
4/5/2006, 11:50 AM
I thought everyone knew that's what discussing anything with Tuba is?
You were too subtle. If you're gonna hit it, mash that bastard.
(this phrase turns out to be suprisingly useful)
1stTimeCaller
4/5/2006, 11:51 AM
You were too subtle. If you're gonna hit it, mash that bastard.
(this phrase turns out to be suprisingly useful)
That's actually pretty good advice.
Pricetag
4/5/2006, 12:59 PM
I bet these guys would agree with you 100%!
If you are trying to draw a similarity between kids wearing flag clothing to school and what those guys did at Iwo Jima, it is you who are insulting them, not the principle who instituted the ban.
NormanPride
4/5/2006, 01:39 PM
Wow. I can't believe how far this argument has degraded. Thanks, Tuba and mdk. We've gone from debating the tactics to protect children in a school to assinine statements about banning patriotic symbols. Tuba also pulled in a reference to WWII war heros! That's like the conservative version of the lib Hitler reference! Congrats!
1TC is the most brilliant mind in this thread, and I include myself in that statement for starting this ****-storm.
Scott D comes in a close second. ;)
colleyvillesooner
4/5/2006, 01:42 PM
This thread needs this:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/TStone/wet_cat_113159625.jpg
Ok, carry on.
mdklatt
4/5/2006, 01:48 PM
Wow. I can't believe how far this argument has degraded.
You must be a n00b.
sooneron
4/5/2006, 01:50 PM
You must be a n00b.
Heh!@
FaninAma
4/5/2006, 01:50 PM
We are a nation of wussies. GUTLESS WUSSIES, I tell ya, afraid to annoy anyone who might whine and bitch. It makes me wanna just go out a gratuitously p!ss somebody off.
The thing is these "gutless wussies" will have no qualms about making your life miserable if you dare offend their sensibilities.
Welcome to modern day, emasculated America. I don't know why we criticize the French because we're not far behind.
NormanPride
4/5/2006, 01:51 PM
You must be a n00b.
:D I guess I see it more on this thread because I pretty much started the badness.
Hatfield
4/5/2006, 01:54 PM
would the people so angry about this decision be up in arms if we were talking about the baneing of clothing associated with gangs?
Pricetag
4/5/2006, 01:57 PM
would the people so angry about this decision be up in arms if we were talking about the baneing of clothing associated with gangs?
This was my exact thought when I started reading this thread. Practically anything, no matter how inherently good it might be, can be warped into a tool for mischief. We have to be rational enough to recognize this case as such and to detach our emotional ties and allow ourselves to focus on the intent, not the object.
Scott D
4/5/2006, 02:00 PM
would the people so angry about this decision be up in arms if we were talking about the baneing of clothing associated with gangs?
good lord what is wrong with you man! gang colors are part of the american flag! Why do you hate america!!!!
:cool:
sooneron
4/5/2006, 02:05 PM
good lord what is wrong with you man! gang colors are part of the american flag! Why do you hate america!!!!
:cool:
No kidding!!!
http://www.develigent.com/albums/drew/young_bloods.sized.jpg
Hamhock
4/5/2006, 02:14 PM
I'm just glad this thread has gone on this long without somebody dropping the "J" word.
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