I say pass this bill immediately! [Archive] - SoonerFans.com Message Boards

TheHumanAlphabet

3/25/2006, 10:11 AM

Did I say I hate hard workers? No, and I'm not against immigration (I'm the multi-generational product of legal immigration), nor am I against the work and services they provide. I respect most illegal hispanics I have come across as they are very hard workers. What I am against is the ILLEGAL aspect of it. They are illegals, close, end, period. If we want people to fill those jobs, then lets make their entry legal, and not necessarily define PERMAMENT entrance for them. A guest worker program that requires reauthorization in their home country periodically would be a good start.

The Libz have done a good job of defining this as immigration/immigrants. They are not, most are here for jobs, not to become Americans. The protest of the other day with them chanting in Spanish and carrying the Mexican flag will surely convince many that they want to be true immigrants and forsake their home country...[/sarcasm]. I for one don't buy it. This is a truly security issue, no country I have visited has such an open border as we do (the one exception - France, do I need to say more). We NEED tight controls on the border, we need to know when they arrive and when they leave and we need a fence and enforcement. Stuff we get from this bill. We also need to define a guest worker program that will allow in guest workers LEGALLY to do all the manual labor jobs Americans seem afraid to do.

We'll be happier after this bill is passed, than if we don't see it...

DeadSolidPerfect

3/25/2006, 10:16 AM

"It was horrible, horrible," Mason said. "It's rediculous that a bunch of black students would jump on Latinos like that, knowing they're trying to get their freedom."

Freedom from what, Mexico?

TheHumanAlphabet

3/25/2006, 10:26 AM

Yeah, read that as well. How IGNORANT these young people are...

Scott D

3/25/2006, 11:07 AM

So what is it that I'm not suppossed to like? That they put a picture of two crazy looking white guys in the upper right corner? :D

chriscappel

3/25/2006, 11:08 AM

YES!!! ita about time dammit!! I dont have a problem with LEGAL folks coming in and learning OUR language! I just think its ridiculous for us to have to adapt to them!

TheHumanAlphabet

3/25/2006, 11:28 AM

So what is it that I'm not suppossed to like? That they put a picture of two crazy looking white guys in the upper right corner? :D

Well, we've had disagreement previously...I was just remembering that in a kidding way...;)

yermom

3/25/2006, 11:59 AM

sure come to this country and work, but pay taxes, get a driver's license and insurance, and learn English

lexsooner

3/25/2006, 12:53 PM

A felony? That's pretty stupid.

There are so many worthless Americans (I'm guess around 15%) that I would gladly ship them out for Mexicans. Any day of the week.

I agree about the felony proposal. Who is going to pay for the huge extra burden on the justice sytem, and all the illegals to be incarcerated as felons? Yep, us tax paying Americans. If you repatriate them back to Mexico as felons, what are the odds Mexico will incarcerate all of them? Not too good, IMHO.

I would also gladly ship out about half of all Kentuckians for many of the illegal Mexicans in this area. The problem is we are only dreaming - we are stuck with the unmotivated, undereducated, entitlement-dependent Kentuckians who are full of false pride, and a growing community of illegal Mexicans will never become citizens. The reality is we have a large group of illegals who are very much part of our community - they work low skill jobs, engage in commerce, drive, marry, etc. etc.

While the illegals do indeed do low skill jobs for less and work hard, the inescapable fact is these folks also have kids in our schools and other social service needs which burden the system, even they they do not pay into our system. Many drive but do not have licenses or insurance, so they often drive badly and hit others whose insurance will have to cover it.

If the illegals were suddenly gone, the economy would indeed suffer in the short run, but does that mean the crops will not get picked, the race horses not fed or walked? Not at all. It means they will have to pay American citizens more to take those jobs, and Americans will, for a larger wage than the illegals earned. I think there has to be a way to mandate a guest status for illegals so that they will give back tax dollars and comply with the laws of our society and have an officials status in the U.S. The situation as it is now is not acceptable.

85Sooner

3/25/2006, 06:08 PM

PASS THIS BILL NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okla-homey

3/25/2006, 06:14 PM

I agree about the felony proposal. Who is going to pay for the huge extra burden on the justice sytem, and all the illegals to be incarcerated as felons? Yep, us tax paying Americans. If you repatriate them back to Mexico as felons, what are the odds Mexico will incarcerate all of them? Not too good, IMHO.

I would also gladly ship out about half of all Kentuckians for many of the illegal Mexicans in this area. The problem is we are only dreaming - we are stuck with the unmotivated, undereducated, entitlement-dependent Kentuckians who are full of false pride, and a growing community of illegal Mexicans will never become citizens. The reality is we have a large group of illegals who are very much part of our community - they work low skill jobs, engage in commerce, drive, marry, etc. etc.

While the illegals do indeed do low skill jobs for less and work hard, the inescapable fact is these folks also have kids in our schools and other social service needs which burden the system, even they they do not pay into our system. Many drive but do not have licenses or insurance, so they often drive badly and hit others whose insurance will have to cover it.

If the illegals were suddenly gone, the economy would indeed suffer in the short run, but does that mean the crops will not get picked, the race horses not fed or walked? Not at all. It means they will have to pay American citizens more to take those jobs, and Americans will, for a larger wage than the illegals earned. I think there has to be a way to mandate a guest status for illegals so that they will give back tax dollars and comply with the laws of our society and have an officials status in the U.S. The situation as it is now is not acceptable.

I think we need them, they're here to stay and we should just STFU and GADOCADWI.

Penguin

3/25/2006, 06:37 PM

If the illegals were suddenly gone, the economy would indeed suffer in the short run, but does that mean the crops will not get picked, the race horses not fed or walked? Not at all. It means they will have to pay American citizens more to take those jobs, and Americans will, for a larger wage than the illegals earned.

I disagree 1000%. You go ahead and ask a brother in the 'hood to stop taking welfare checks and go start picking crops. I'll give you one guess what he'll say. The underclass of America will never do that kind of work. If they did, they wouldn't be in projects and prisons draining our resources.

Flagstaffsooner

3/25/2006, 06:50 PM

If the illegals were suddenly gone, the economy would indeed suffer in the short run, but does that mean the crops will not get picked, the race horses not fed or walked?
That will tank the leaf blower industry.;)

Seriously though, the illegals are taxing the social services of the border states.

Damn, you should see the mexican gangs here in Arizona. They are the large majority or the crime here.

Do whatever it takes to get rid of them.

KC//CRIMSON

3/25/2006, 08:14 PM

:D http://www.twotonlobster.com/files/vid/loobia.wmv

Flagstaffsooner

3/25/2006, 08:19 PM

Sorry beaners.:D

proud gonzo

3/25/2006, 09:06 PM

jeremy885

3/25/2006, 10:48 PM

Why should Mexicans get treated any different than any other immigrant? I had to wait over 1 YEAR to get my wife into this country legally. These people didn't follow the rules, so they should pay the price. If that price is jail time, so be. No one should be rewarded for breaking the laws of this country, whether illegals or the people who help them or employ them.

LoyalFan

3/25/2006, 10:50 PM

I neither hate hard workers nor do I wish the economy to go to Hell. But...

When will the bleeding hearts EVER realize that the government(?) of the cesspool to the South (the one with the buzzard attempting to sodomize an earthworm on it's flag,) is exporting their failure to us so fast as they possibly can. Not only are we getting a group of those, desperate to work, whose own government has failed them, but we are being invaded by an increasing number of those whose aim is to profit by criminal activity.

The Latino "movements" have one basic aim...domination. They seek to overwhelm the electorate, city by city, state by state, until they have reduced the USA to a welfare-dependent and criminal-ruled society.
The goal of "old school" immigrants was to become Americans, not to trash this nation into a mirror image of whatever hellhole they'd escaped. That has changed.

This is not to say that there are not good, decent, and hard-working immigrants, legal or otherwise, who simply seek a bearable standard of living. Each day, however, the ratio of those to the wanna-be welfare bums and criminals changes adversely.

I live in San Antonio and have close ties with the Rio Grande Valley. I have seen, firsthand, the effects of unstemmed illegal immigration and can tell you, in no way pedagogically, that it not only must stop but must be reversed why whatever means we can effect.

Perhaps a prime example of the arrogance of the government of the CTTS (Cesspool To The South) is their "outrage" when Texas executes a criminal of Cesspoolian nationality. Recently, Vicente The Fox, El Presidente de La Cesspool, demanded that such an execution, (for a cop-killer, no less,) be halted...riiiiiight, Vince...in goes the needle...take that, Your Excrescency!

Hospitals in the border regions, and increasingly in states where illegals have rallied, are bankrupt or on the verge of being so. They cannot turn away a patient so, when little Eusebio is about to be born, Carmela sneaks over the Rio Bravo (Cesspoolese for "Rio Grande") and goes into labor on the hospital steps. She is seen through delivery, pays zilch, and, worse yet, Lil' Eusebio is now an American citizen. That neatly opens yet another floodgate.

The welfare system is overtaxed (as are legal Americans) by the hordes of those whose sole mission is to suckle at the welfare teat. I've had more than one fecund senorita tell me that whenever she wants a bigger check, she has another baby. One even asked ME to father a child, no strings attached, 'cause she wanted a "real American man" to do the honors.
There are extended families here that are proud of the fact that they've milked the system for so many as four or more generations. Note that at the current breeding rate, it doesn't take long for a given generation to pass the genes. About 15 years, on the average, for the first of the new breed of bums to be conceived.

Now, the very people who threaten our existence as a functioning nation are marching ON OUR STREETS, demanding that we simply give up, learn Cesspoolese, and haul down the Stars and Stripes. To them and the ignoramuses who, though claiming to be Americans, support them, I say...Damn you! If you so love that corrupt and rotten culture, then go south and enjoy it at the core. Otherwise, wake up, smell the coffee and help save this nation.

Re: The CTTS; can you not see the flaw in a country where 1/3 of it's income is derived from moneys, mostly untaxed, earned here? How about their increasing dependency on profits from the drug trade. Idea: Why don't those of you who toke, inject, and sniff their products either get cured, die, or move down to the source. We neither need nor want you.

To those who fret about losing domestic help: Learn to mow your own damned lawn and clean your own damned toilet!

Hating no man for the color of his skin. Hating some for the darkness of their intent and actions, I remain,

LoyalFan,
American, Veteran, Patriot, and ****ed OFF!

jeremy885

3/25/2006, 10:54 PM

That was a little harsh, don't you think?

Okla-homey

3/25/2006, 11:00 PM

Jimminy Crimson

3/25/2006, 11:01 PM

I like the surcharge on money transfers! :texan:

Pass this bill, stat!

jeremy885

3/25/2006, 11:07 PM

LoyalFan

3/25/2006, 11:14 PM

That was a little harsh, don't you think?

Au contraire, mon frere!
If you live in a besieged border state, you oughta know the truth of my assertions. If not, mon ami, count yourself fortunate...for now.

L.Fan

Okla-homey

3/25/2006, 11:19 PM

LoyalFan

3/25/2006, 11:21 PM

okay smarties, if we ship 'em all out who the h-e-double-toothpicks is gonna cut the grass, plant and mulch the shrubbery, blow the leaves, bus the restaurant tables, re-roof the house, pick the produce, slaughter and pack the meat, frame, drywall and paint the new houses, pave and maintain the highways, etc.? Us? fuhgeddaboutit.

BTW, at the end of the Civil War, a lot of white folks favored sending American freedmen to Africa because they were a drain on government resources and all. You remember, Liberia was the result. After a while, and after several thousand were sent there, folks realized it was just a bad idea. In time, folks will settle down and get used to the idea these folks are here to stay if for no other reason there is no practical way other than concentration camps and a fortified border to get rid of them...and believe me, no matter how much it costs us in $$$, that ain't gonna happen.

Homey,
"Fast forward" not too many years. See the future if we don't take what some may deem to be Draconian measures.

The time of "I lift my lamp beside the Golden Door" ended when the immigrants decided to make our land so corrupt and miserable as theirs.

Do I like the feelings I harbor? No. Do I want my culture, language, to prevail? Yes! Will our way of life, our very safety and freedoms, persist if they take over? NO!!!

Respectfully,

LF

Widescreen

3/25/2006, 11:24 PM

okay smarties, if we ship 'em all out who the h-e-double-toothpicks is gonna cut the grass, plant and mulch the shrubbery, blow the leaves, bus the restaurant tables, re-roof the house, pick the produce, slaughter and pack the meat, frame, drywall and paint the new houses, pave and maintain the highways, etc.? Us? fuhgeddaboutit.
So you think it's OK to have illegals marching down our streets shouting "Mexico, Mexico!!!" (which they were doing) and waving Mexican flags and telling us Americans to stick it where the sun don't shine? What about MECha who's bylaws state ""General membership shall consist of any student who accepts, believes and works for the goals and objectives of MEChA, including the liberation of AZTLAN, meaning self-determination of our people in this occupied state and the physical liberation of our land." and whose motto is "Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada." These are the same types of people that are marching against American sovereignty across our country. I couldn't care less if people have to start mowing their own lawns or house prices go up. This is OUR country and if they came here illegally, they have NO right to be here.

Okla-homey

3/25/2006, 11:27 PM

Homey,
"Fast forward" not too many years. See the future if we don't take what some may deem to be Draconian measures.

The time of "I lift my lamp beside the Golden Door" ended when the immigrants decided to make our land so corrupt and miserable as theirs.

Do I like the feelings I harbor? No. Do I want my culture, language, to prevail? Yes! Will our way of life, our very safety and freedoms, persist if they take over? NO!!!

Respectfully,

LF

I hear ya bro...I just honestly believe there's nothing we can do about it short of rounding up and shooting people, and I'm generally against that sort of thing...except during OU-texass week.;)

Soonrboy

3/25/2006, 11:27 PM

Hey, here's a thought...

why don't we enforce the laws that already on the books? Instead of making new ones to get everyone up in arms about, we take care of we said we were going to do in the first place???

Stupid europeans, should have stayed on your own continent.

:)

Octavian

3/25/2006, 11:31 PM

When will the bleeding hearts EVER realize...

you mean like W? that guys such a liberal wack job :rolleyes:

Fast forward" not too many years. See the future if we don't take what some may deem to be Draconian measures.

The time of "I lift my lamp beside the Golden Door" ended when the immigrants decided to make our land so corrupt and miserable as theirs.

Do I like the feelings I harbor? No. Do I want my culture, language, to prevail? Yes! Will our way of life, our very safety and freedoms, persist if they take over? NO!!!

This same sentiment has been expressed repeatedly again throughout American history toward every new immigration wave only to see the country make it through (among others) the Irish, Chinese, Eastern European, Jewish, and Italian immigration movements and flourish to an even greater extent each time. All the arguments against them were word-for-word what you just said

LoyalFan

3/25/2006, 11:32 PM

Starting about 1840, folks said the same things about the Irish, then the Chinese, then the Italians, then eastern Europeans, then the Japanese, then the Vietnamese, now its Latin America's turn in the barrel. This too shall pass.

Homey,

Wrong! Sorry, but totally wrong!
The earlier immigrants were willing to forgo welfare and a criminal culture (in the main) in order to become Americans. These vermin want to extend the borders of the CTTS and it's corruption.
When the Irish raised the Harp flag, it was to fight for this country. You, as a history buff (ditto here) no doubt recall the Irish Brigade in the Civil War or the Fightin' 69th Division in WWOne. They fought to preserve this country, not remake in the image of the crappy world they'd left.
Few, if any, Italians in this land wanted Mussolini to prevail. Darned few Chinese wanted to make this land a reflection of the misery and tyranny that was China, and the Vietnamese who were fortunate enough to make it here just wanted to work, gain an education, and excel at what they were amazed to see WE take so lightly...being an AMERICAN!
The Nisei (Japanese) fought bravely for our cause in WW2, despite the wretched manner (sadly, necessary in light of the times) in which their folks back here were treated, and there has been no dearth of East Europeans, those lucky enough to escape the Iron Curtain, who were willing to fight and die for this nation.
I seriously doubt you'll see Meskin drug dealers, car thieves, petty criminals, or those comfortable on the welfare nipple rushing to defend the USA.

I stand by my assertions, and ever will.

With respect,

LF

Octavian

3/25/2006, 11:33 PM

Starting about 1840, folks said the same things about the Irish, then the Chinese, then the Italians, then eastern Europeans, then the Japanese, then the Vietnamese, now its Latin America's turn in the barrel. This too shall pass.

heh...just because I post in threads doesn't mean I read them all.

sorry for the echo.

you are correct, sir.

Okla-homey

3/25/2006, 11:41 PM

So you think it's OK to have illegals marching down our streets shouting "Mexico, Mexico!!!" (which they were doing) and waving Mexican flags and telling us Americans to stick it where the sun don't shine? What about MECha who's bylaws state ""General membership shall consist of any student who accepts, believes and works for the goals and objectives of MEChA, including the liberation of AZTLAN, meaning self-determination of our people in this occupied state and the physical liberation of our land." and whose motto is "Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada." These are the same types of people that are marching against American sovereignty across our country. I couldn't care less if people have to start mowing their own lawns or house prices go up. This is OUR country and if they came here illegally, they have NO right to be here.

Yep, it p1sses me off, but its just sabre-rattling. I also know some of their intellectuals propose establishment and sovereignty for a new Hispanic nation in our Southwest "by any means neccessary"

They won't ever be able to pull it off anymore than the former Confederate states were able to set-up shop as a separate nation. Much longer odds in fact since they have no means of establishing and organizing a conventional military and they simply can't do it by ballot.

I'm also old enough to remember how scared folks were that there would be a race war in the 1960's. Black Panthers, great and destructive riots in many cities, Malcolm X and all that stuff. That too fizzled-out.

At worst, we might have to round-up the ringleaders some day and lock-up or deport them if they get violent and particularly disruptive.

Octavian

3/25/2006, 11:46 PM

Homey,

Wrong! Sorry, but totally wrong!
The earlier immigrants were willing to forgo welfare and a criminal culture (in the main) in order to become Americans. These vermin want to extend the borders of the CTTS and it's corruption.
When the Irish raised the Harp flag, it was to fight for this country. You, as a history buff (ditto here) no doubt recall the Irish Brigade in the Civil War or the Fightin' 69th Division in WWOne. They fought to preserve this country, not remake in the image of the crappy world they'd left.
Few, if any, Italians in this land wanted Mussolini to prevail. Darned few Chinese wanted to make this land a reflection of the misery and tyranny that was China, and the Vietnamese who were fortunate enough to make it here just wanted to work, gain an education, and excel at what they were amazed to see WE take so lightly...being an AMERICAN!
The Nisei (Japanese) fought bravely for our cause in WW2, despite the wretched manner (sadly, necessary in light of the times) in which their folks back here were treated, and there has been no dearth of East Europeans, those lucky enough to escape the Iron Curtain, who were willing to fight and die for this nation.
I seriously doubt you'll see Meskin drug dealers, car thieves, petty criminals, or those comfortable on the welfare nipple rushing to defend the USA.

I stand by my assertions, and ever will.

With respect,

LF

ehh...you have any idea how many hispanics have died for the United States in war?? how many latino kids are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan right now?

you're a vet (as you repeatedly state), you should know better.

Okla-homey

3/25/2006, 11:50 PM

Homey,

Wrong! Sorry, but totally wrong!
The earlier immigrants were willing to forgo welfare and a criminal culture (in the main) in order to become Americans. These vermin want to extend the borders of the CTTS and it's corruption.
When the Irish raised the Harp flag, it was to fight for this country. You, as a history buff (ditto here) no doubt recall the Irish Brigade in the Civil War or the Fightin' 69th Division in WWOne. They fought to preserve this country, not remake in the image of the crappy world they'd left.
Few, if any, Italians in this land wanted Mussolini to prevail. Darned few Chinese wanted to make this land a reflection of the misery and tyranny that was China, and the Vietnamese who were fortunate enough to make it here just wanted to work, gain an education, and excel at what they were amazed to see WE take so lightly...being an AMERICAN!
The Nisei (Japanese) fought bravely for our cause in WW2, despite the wretched manner (sadly, necessary in light of the times) in which their folks back here were treated, and there has been no dearth of East Europeans, those lucky enough to escape the Iron Curtain, who were willing to fight and die for this nation.
I seriously doubt you'll see Meskin drug dealers, car thieves, petty criminals, or those comfortable on the welfare nipple rushing to defend the USA.

I stand by my assertions, and ever will.

With respect,

LF

My brother,
I respectfully disagree. There are an awful lot of kids whose last name ends in a vowel in uniform right now. Odds are some of them are bleeding to death as I type this. If I were king of America, I would immediately grant them citizenship after one honorable enlistment.

LoyalFan

3/25/2006, 11:58 PM

ehh...you have any idea how many hispanics have died for the United States in war?? how many latino kids are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan right now?

you're a vet (as you repeatedly state), you should know better.

Octavian,

PLEASE read my post again! This time, pay attention.
I did NOT paint all Hispanics with the same brush! I very concisely listed the types whom I doubt would lift a finger for this country.
I served, in combat (Vietnam,'70, Captain, Armored Cavalry) with men of all origins, including many of Hispanic descent.They were Americans first, Hispanic last, and I believe they would be the first to agree with me, since the types mentioned cause them every bit so much grief as they do me.
BTW, are you the least bothered by the fact that "Coyotes" from the CTTS have smuggled non-Hispanics (can you say "Islamic Terrorists") into the USA?...anything for a buck.
Again, please read thoroughly and thoughtfully BEFORE you opine or criticize.

With respect,

LF

LoyalFan

3/26/2006, 12:00 AM

My brother,
I respectfully disagree. There are an awful lot of kids whose last name ends in a vowel in uniform right now. Odds are some of them are bleeding to death as I type this. If I were king of America, I would immediately grant them citizenship after one honorable enlistment.

Homey,
I respectfully direct your attention to my most recent response to Octavian.
That, I hope, will set your mind at ease.

LF

Okla-homey

3/26/2006, 12:00 AM

Latest date I could find easily: Hispanics made up 17.2% of Navy recruits, 14% of Army recruits, and 11.3% of Air Force recruits in 2004.

That percentage is generally equivalent to the number of Irish in the Union army in the Civil War.

Octavian

3/26/2006, 12:08 AM

Octavian,

PLEASE read my post again! This time, pay attention.
I did NOT paint all Hispanics with the same brush! I very concisely listed the types whom I doubt would lift a finger for this country.
I served, in combat (Vietnam,'70, Captain, Armored Cavalry) with men of all origins, including many of Hispanic descent.They were Americans first, Hispanic last, and I believe they would be the first to agree with me, since the types mentioned cause them every bit so much grief as they do me.
BTW, are you the least bothered by the fact that "Coyotes" from the CTTS have smuggled non-Hispanics (can you say "Islamic Terrorists") into the USA?...anything for a buck.
Again, please read thoroughly and thoughtfully BEFORE you opine or criticize.

With respect,

LF

I read it fine the first time.

The "vermon" you mention could just as easily be any white, black, or polka dotted delinquent anywhere in America. There's a big difference between the vast majority of hard working/fighting latinos and the fringe group leaders you mention.

you're over-reacting.

LoyalFan

3/26/2006, 12:09 AM

Time out! Got the severe munchies.
Heading out to the Fast Food and Cholesterol part of town in order to assuage my gustatory lusts.
For some reason, tacos sound OK! LOL!

We shall meet, upon this field, at dawn on the morrow.
Honourable battle may then be rejoined.
(Not Shakespeare, just LoyalFan. I do so love the "Olde" language.)

LF

PS: Octavian, once again, you seem unable to recognize either the threat in the long term OR the stated objectives of SOME Hispanic "leaders", such as the mayor of LA.
BTW...that's "vermIn"

Scott D

3/26/2006, 12:10 AM

BTW, at the end of the Civil War, a lot of white folks favored sending American freedmen to Africa because they were a drain on government resources and all. You remember, Liberia was the result. After a while, and after several thousand were sent there, folks realized it was just a bad idea. In time, folks will settle down and get used to the idea these folks are here to stay if for no other reason there is no practical way other than concentration camps and a fortified border to get rid of them...and believe me, no matter how much it costs us in $$$, that ain't gonna happen.

no offense Homey, but that's apples and oranges. Can't really compare those who illegaly came into this country with those who were brought to this country by force against their will. The problems with the Liberia issue ran more along the lines of being ostracized on both sides of the Atlantic for who they were.

Octavian

3/26/2006, 12:14 AM

Time out! Got the severe munchies.
Heading out to the Fast Food and Cholesterol part of town in order to assuage my gustatory lusts.
For some reason, tacos sound OK! LOL!

We shall meet, upon this field, at dawn on the morrow.
Honourable battle may then be rejoined.
(Not Shakespeare, just LoyalFan. I do so love the "Olde" language.)

LF

hope the roads you drive on to get there are paved ;)

Octavian

3/26/2006, 12:16 AM

PS: Octavian, once again, you seem unable to recognize either the threat in the long term OR the stated objectives of SOME Hispanic "leaders", such as the mayor of LA.
BTW...that's "vermIn"

grammar smack...nice

you're over-reacting...go eat your tacos

JohnnyMack

3/26/2006, 12:26 AM

The border is so open because it has to be open. Cheap labor necessitates it.

Systemic Failures. That'll be the common threme that dooms our nation.

LoyalFan

3/26/2006, 05:18 AM

grammar smack...nice

you're over-reacting...go eat your tacos

In truth, I went to a pub, had two Maker's Marks...yum! Then I made my way to a Denny's and O.D.'d on biscuits and sausage gravy. Ditto the "yum".
And no, not overreacting. I'm simply standing by what I know to be the truth, having dwelt here amidst the increasing squalor for more years than, I'll wager, you've been on this planet.
Also, I'd have eaten my early breakfast/late supper with, or without, your permission.
Now brush your toofies and tinkle, button the escape hatch on the back of your jammies, then hie thyself to bed. Prayer would be nice.

LF

Flagstaffsooner

3/26/2006, 05:36 AM

Cam

3/26/2006, 08:21 AM

The key words in this discussion are legal and illegal.

How bout INS set up a booth at each of these rallies and see how many of the protesters are actually legal? I'd be surprised if 20% of them were.

Okla-homey

3/26/2006, 08:48 AM

no offense Homey, but that's apples and oranges. Can't really compare those who illegaly came into this country with those who were brought to this country by force against their will. The problems with the Liberia issue ran more along the lines of being ostracized on both sides of the Atlantic for who they were.

My point was merely that racial discrimination against black folks in this country reached its apogee just after the Civil War in the late 1860's. That discrimination was manifested in the "send them back to Africa movement."

The movement was completely impractical, and not merely because of the logistical challenge...here's the part I left out; because black folks were a vital and essential part of the economic structure in many regions of the country, especially the recently defeated former Confederate states.

Without their labor, a lot of things simply would not have gotten done. Particularly the sort of essential things considered difficult and relatively low-paying -- like the sort of jobs recently arrived Hispanic folks do now which have been catalogued in earlier posts in this thread.

Therefore, I think the anti-immigrant worker movement today is analagous to the back-to-Africa movement of the 19th c. I think its even more so now that Hispanic people have become America's largest minority.

Many of the same characterizations are now bandied about about the "uppity" sub-class of Hispanics who espouse civil rights and self-determination as were wielded against blacks who had the nerve to do the same thing back when most people in this country felt blacks didn't deserve to be here or had any real right to anything. At the end of the day, is the sentiment "Say it loud, I'm black and I'm proud!" and waving the red, green and black "African" flag really any different from shouting "Mexico! Mexico!" while marching with the red, white and green flag of their forebears. In my mind, not at all.

To me, it is an inconsequential distinction that blacks were originally brought here against their will and most Hispanics came here by choice. I doubt most Hispanics who eke out a living here honestly prefer to be here, particularly since the the so-called "illegals" can't even claim second-class citizenship. They are '"aliens" which even polite American society believes its okay to hate.

I think most are here because they want a better life for themselves and their children and know that opportunity is found here in the US.

Sure, the XIII amendment to the Constitution made slavery illegal in 1866, but the promises of equal rights of the XIV and XV really didn't become the "law of the land" until the great Civil Rights struggles of the 1960's almost a hundred years later.

I say, lets just sack-up and admit these folks are here, they aren't leaving, we need them, and lets busy ourselves figuring out ways to incorporate them into our society. The notion that we just need to get rid of them and staunch their flow into Norte America is a non-starter on so many levels, each with historical precedent.

You may note I never use the term African-American. I choose not to because I believe it invokes the view that black folks in America somehow have their feet on two continents. I don't believe that and believe such thinking is unneccessarily divisive. Black folks are Americans. Just like me.

I propose that Hispanic folks who live here ("illegally" or not) become Americans too, imbued with all the rights and privileges (including paying taxes by gawd) of anyone else who is willing to obey our laws and work to feed themselves and keep society going. Sure, there are no doubt some percentage of Hispanic folks who are here for a suck at Uncle Sam's teat? What's the diff between them and any other "legal" American who approaches life the same way whether they were born here or not? I don't think it matters much either way. We as a nation just need to GADOCADWI.

just saying. (Pretty weird thinking coming from a Conservative guy, huh? )

Cam

3/26/2006, 08:55 AM

Okla-homey

3/26/2006, 09:12 AM

Once they start paying taxes, have personal and car insurance like the rest of us, then they can should be incorporated into our society.

Until then, they're mearly sucking from the teat that they aren't contributing to.

I believe if they are afforded a realistic opportunity to gain "legal" status, they will do all those things Cam. Until they can live here openly and without fear they have no motivation to play by the rules. Afterall, I think you have to put a Social Security number on an insurance application in most cases.

Cam

3/26/2006, 09:18 AM

I believe if they are afforded a realistic opportunity to gain "legal" status, they will do all those things Cam. Until they can live here openly and without fear they have no motivation to play by the rules. Afterall, I think you have to put a Social Security number on an insurance application in most cases.
They ALL have the opportunity to gain legal status. Very few of them chose to do so.

Okla-homey

3/26/2006, 09:27 AM

They ALL have the opportunity to gain legal status. Very few of them chose to do so.

Cam,
So you're sitting down in the Mexican desert today and your wife says "Pablo, we don't have anything to feed the children and your mother is sick, how do we make the money we need?"

Does Pablo think, "I know what to do, I'll go on-line and look for a job in the US, then, I'll apply to the US government for a work visa and wait six months to see if its approved. Then, if I get the visa, I'll head up to Oklahoma and do landscaping work and by Christmas, we'll have some money to feed the kids and get mama to the doctor."

No he doesn't. He packs his bag of rags and heads north. Just like I would. He prolly won't apply once he's here and working because it will prolly be denied and then he's "outed" himself.

What about children who are brought here "illegally" by their parents as babies? When they turn 18 and either have to register for Selective Service or apply for college admission, they have to provide a SSN. They can't do that because they aren't here "legally." They are often completely "americanized" and don't even speak Spanish anymore -- but legally, they deserve deportment. Do we send that young person back to Mexico or Guatemala too or just put them in jail as felons?

All I'm saying is its a damn difficult and thorny issue. There are no easy answers.

Soonrboy

3/26/2006, 09:34 AM

Once they start paying taxes, have personal and car insurance like the rest of us, then they can should be incorporated into our society.

Until then, they're mearly sucking from the teat that they aren't contributing to.

That same logic can be applied to many, many people that were born here.

One of our bilingual teachers came to me the other day and told me about the story that this little girl in our school told her about coming to Oklahoma. She said that they walked and walked. Hid in big cars. No water. The little girl said she thought she was going to die.

The bilingual teacher told me that it costs $3500 per person to have someone sneak you across the border. I asked her who the people were sneaking them across. She said white americans. After you cross the border, another car drives you to Oklahoma. If you have a relative here, they make a discreet phone call to that person to tell them where to pick you up.

Now, I know this illegal. My question is, how do we expect to enforce new laws when we can't enforce the old ones?

****ing political rhetoric to get people upset about something else.

Cam

3/26/2006, 10:38 AM

Cam,
So you're sitting down in the Mexican desert today and your wife says "Pablo, we don't have anything to feed the children and your mother is sick, how do we make the money we need?"

Does Pablo think, "I know what to do, I'll go on-line and look for a job in the US, then, I'll apply to the US government for a work visa and wait six months to see if its approved. Then, if I get the visa, I'll head up to Oklahoma and do landscaping work and by Christmas, we'll have some money to feed the kids and get mama to the doctor."

No he doesn't. He packs his bag of rags and heads north. Just like I would. He prolly won't apply once he's here and working because it will prolly be denied and then he's "outed" himself.

What about children who are brought here "illegally" by their parents as babies? When they turn 18 and either have to register for Selective Service or apply for college admission, they have to provide a SSN. They can't do that because they aren't here "legally." They are often completely "americanized" and don't even speak Spanish anymore -- but legally, they deserve deportment. Do we send that young person back to Mexico or Guatemala too or just put them in jail as felons?

All I'm saying is its a damn difficult and thorny issue. There are no easy answers.
You're kind of proving my point, and there is no easy answer.

If you want a research project, hang out at the local Mexican league soccer fields for a while and start asking questions. It'll take you a couple years cause they aren't going to trust a gringo without you being around for at least a year. That is, unless you're playing in the league. If you're playing, hang out and drink with them. They'll tell you why they're here.

They aren't here to be Americans, they're here for money and the freebies you and I pay for, pure and simple. I know both legal and illegal Hispanics. The legal ones are doing much better than the illegals.

Learn the system, contribute to it, then you'll be welcomed into the society with open arms.

LoyalFan

3/26/2006, 11:44 AM

Plain and simple...
Some of us involved in this thread can't seem to make the distinction between "legal" and "illegal" immigrants.
If we are to be guided by our emotions let us follow those that result from a realization that we are being overrun, bankrupted, and ultimately destroyed by the flow of illegals, and that includes some types whose aim IS to destroy the US.
To Cam: Amen! You get it.
To admired (fellow history buff) colleague Homey: We can't let them all enter in the bootless hope that somehow, as if by magic, they'll learn English (beginning with the Pledge of Allegiance and the Star Spangled Banner, followed by The OU Chant), join the Rotary, and register for the draft, and spend their (taxed) earnings here.
To some others: Take a close look at what has happened in many European countries as a result of unrestrained immigration. Examine Once-Great Britain, The Netherlands, and France for starters.
Ask the sheriffs of the border counties in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California if they think all will be rosy if we turn our backs. Ask homeowners and ranchers in the region if they are unafraid to roam their own property. Ask the wives and children of Border Patrol and Immigration and Naturalization officers if they are confident they'll ever see Dad alive again each time he heads out to try and protect us all.

Well, a nice lady has promised Heinikens (sp?), BBQ, and, uh, camaraderie today, so off to a more pleasurable combat.

God Bless America, Those Who Truly Love Her, and The Beasts and Children.

LoyalFan
American, Veteran, Patriot, Curmudgeon Trainee.

85Sooner

3/26/2006, 12:49 PM

lexsooner

3/26/2006, 01:14 PM

I disagree 1000%. You go ahead and ask a brother in the 'hood to stop taking welfare checks and go start picking crops. I'll give you one guess what he'll say. The underclass of America will never do that kind of work. If they did, they wouldn't be in projects and prisons draining our resources.

Penguin, the problem with your argument is it is premised on the unemployable underclass of America filling the jobs illegals currently perform if the illegals were no longer here. Well, those Americans would not be the ones filling behind the illegals - they are largely not employable and would never apply or last doing hard farm labor jobs. Forget the boyz in the hood or welfare dependent folks in Appalachia.

Instead, those jobs would be filled by lower wage working Americans who ARE employable - IF you pay them enough. The farm or ranch owners would just have to pay these Americans more than they paid the illegals. Right now there are many Americans who work low wage service or lower end factory jobs for minimum wage or moderately above minimum wage. Supposing the illegals cleaned out horse stalls and walked horse for five bucks an hour. Well, for eight or nine dollars an hour there would enough low wage earning Americans who would happily give up their six dollar an hour fast food jobs to do this work.

The bottom line is there is a threshold at which you can get about anyone who is employable to do about anything if you pay them enough. I am sure it is a basic principal in economics. Heck, you could find no shortage of Americans willing to shovel horse manure standing on their heads if you paid them $20 an hour to do so. Maybe lower wage Americans would not work quite as hard as illegals, but they would do the work if you paid them enough to be worth their while.

Widescreen

3/26/2006, 01:32 PM

Supposing the illegals cleaned out horse stalls and walked horse for five bucks an hour. Well, for eight or nine dollars an hour there would enough low wage earning Americans who would happily give up their six dollar an hour fast food jobs to do this work.

In!

Vaevictis

3/26/2006, 02:06 PM

Personally, I think outright prohibiting Mexicans from coming across the border is non-productive. They're going to come whether we prohibit them or not; if you make it legal, though, you can at least tax them.

The proper solution would require several ... attack points if you will:
1. Permit fee. You say that people pay $3500 to be smuggled across the border? Make applications free, but grants cost $3000. That's a hell of a lot of money per person. And it's a bonus for the Mexican too -- you pay your yearly fee of $3k, and you don't have to worry about being caught and deported (and thus losing your money), and you definately don't have to worry about dying on the way, crammed into an unventilated trailer with your own (and others) extrement. BTW, nobody without a criminal history is denied the permit if they can pay the fee and follow the requirements -- which includes registration of domicile and paying all appropriate taxes.
2. Harshen the illegal immigrant laws; don't just deport them. Any property that is owned by the immigrant is subject to confiscation (kind of like property resulting from drugs). Instead of just deporting them, have a relatively short jail time... then contract the prisoners out as workers. Hey, they wanted to work here, right? Too bad the gubbmint gets the profits.
3. Harshen the penalties for businesses that hire them knowingly. Don't just fine them, also apply rules like the "fruits of drug profits," where anybody making money from this is subject to fines AND losing all of the fruits of their illegal activity. Want to hire illegal immigrants for your business? Go ahead. But when you get caught, don't be suprised if you end up owing fines AND have the gubbmint come confiscate your business, vehicles and home.

Really, I think the border should be open to all upstanding workers, but that they should have to pay into the system like citizens do instead of just sucking up resources and leaving.

Okla-homey

3/26/2006, 02:13 PM

Have a nice time. I'm going tp comment on a few areas here.

Plain and simple...
Some of us involved in this thread can't seem to make the distinction between "legal" and "illegal" immigrants.
If we are to be guided by our emotions let us follow those that result from a realization that we are being overrun, bankrupted, and ultimately destroyed by the flow of illegals, and that includes some types whose aim IS to destroy the US.
To Cam: Amen! You get it.
To admired (fellow history buff) colleague Homey: We can't let them all enter in the bootless hope that somehow, as if by magic, they'll learn English (beginning with the Pledge of Allegiance and the Star Spangled Banner, followed by The OU Chant), join the Rotary, and register for the draft, and spend their (taxed) earnings here. So how do we separate the one's who are inclined to assimilate and become Norte Americanos from the rest at the border? Have them fill out a questionnaire or something?

To some others: Take a close look at what has happened in many European countries as a result of unrestrained immigration. Examine Once-Great Britain, The Netherlands, and France for starters. That's a clash of cultures at work there brother. Islamic immigrant populations clashing with secular state governments which seek to maintain the status quo. That's not what these Hispanic immigrants propose. Apples and bowling balls. It is BTW, why it often seems that fundamentalist Islam and a secularized democracy are incompatible. On a related note, I think the best we can hope for in Iraq and Afghanistan is a democratic theocracy. IOW, elected clerics and candidates endorsed by clerics running things

Ask the sheriffs of the border counties in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California if they think all will be rosy if we turn our backs. Ask homeowners and ranchers in the region if they are unafraid to roam their own property. Ask the wives and children of Border Patrol and Immigration and Naturalization officers if they are confident they'll ever see Dad alive again each time he heads out to try and protect us all. From criminals. Latino and Gringo. Lots of badness to go around in those regions.

Well, a nice lady has promised Heinikens (sp?), BBQ, and, uh, camaraderie today, so off to a more pleasurable combat.

God Bless America, Those Who Truly Love Her, and The Beasts and Children.

LoyalFan
American, Veteran, Patriot, Curmudgeon Trainee.

I'll leave you with these words from God to His children from Leviticus 19:33-34.

"When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God."

As a proud American, I'm just happy the Naragansett and Iroquois understood,without yet having been taught the above principle, and treated our colonist forebears kindly instead of driving us back into the sea as they easily could have done in 1607 and again in 1620 respectively.

Penguin

3/26/2006, 02:48 PM

The bottom line is there is a threshold at which you can get about anyone who is employable to do about anything if you pay them enough. I am sure it is a basic principal in economics. Heck, you could find no shortage of Americans willing to shovel horse manure standing on their heads if you paid them $20 an hour to do so. Maybe lower wage Americans would not work quite as hard as illegals, but they would do the work if you paid them enough to be worth their while.

I have no doubt that people will do anything if pay them enough. However, it is a little naive to think that corporations in America will all of the sudden start paying people to shovel **** for $40K/yr. Corporations (and wacky ultra-conservatives) claim that they'll all go out of business if the government raises the minimum wage by a freakin' dollar. Good wages for bad jobs are not going to happen.

If it's possible and the gov't ships all illegals back to Central America, the US economy will be seriously hurt.

yermom

3/26/2006, 02:54 PM

Have a nice time. I'm going tp comment on a few areas here.

I'll leave you with these words from God to His children from Leviticus 19:33-34.

As a proud American, I'm just happy the Naragansett and Iroquois understood that principle and treated our colonist forebears kindly instead of driving us back into the sea as they easily could have done in 1607 and again in 1620 respectively.

if we are going to follow Leviticus, they better hope none of them are gay ;)

and what happened to the above tribes as a result?

yermom

3/26/2006, 02:56 PM

Okla-homey

3/26/2006, 02:56 PM

I have no doubt that people will do anything if pay them enough. However, it is a little naive to think that corporations in America will all of the sudden start paying people to shovel **** for $40K/yr. Corporations (and wacky ultra-conservatives) claim that they'll all go out of business if the government raises the minimum wage by a freakin' dollar. Good wages for bad jobs are not going to happen.

If it's possible and the gov't ships all illegals back to Central America, the US economy will be seriously hurt.

And the Chicoms work hardest of all for the fewest $$$ which is why Wal-Mart has so much of the stuff we all drag home in those light blue plastic bags with the :) on them made in China. Not necessarily the highest quality available, but like Indian (dot not feather) written computer code, good enough for most of folks. Its economics and stuff.:D

mdklatt

3/26/2006, 02:57 PM

Once they start paying taxes

They all pay sales tax, property tax, gasoline tax, etc. just like everybody else. How are they supposed to pay income tax? A lot of them probably don't make enough to have to pay income tax in the first place.

have personal and car insurance like the rest of us

Personal insurance as in health insurance? Give me a break. Many Americans can't afford health insurance. How many born and bred Oklahomans have auto insurance? I just saw a TV commercial for one of those places that sells insurance by the month--just long enough for a f'in hillbilly to get his car tag renewed.

Until then, they're mearly sucking from the teat that they aren't contributing to.

Oh please. Mexican workers contribute to the economy more than a large number of Americans. They buy stuff, pay taxes, and provide low cost labor to keep the economy going.

If we make it more difficult for the good guys (people who just want a job) to come across the border, we'll make it harder to spot the bad guys (criminals and terrorists).

mdklatt

3/26/2006, 03:00 PM

why do we even have a minimum wage?

Beats me. A free market should sort that out on its own.

Okla-homey

3/26/2006, 03:09 PM

Beats me. A free market should sort that out on its own.

Because without one, some political economists argue that market forces would act to stagnate low-wage payscales at levels at which those workers would find it impossible to raise a family. Kinda like now. Anyone remember the last time it was raised in Oklahoma?

Right now in OK:
Employers of ten or more full time employees at any one location and employers with annual gross sales over $100,000 irrespective of number of full time employees. $5.15

All other employers. $2.00 THAT's TWO FLIPPIN' DOLLARS FOLKS!

WTF else is gonna work hard for that kind of money but "illegals?"

mdklatt

3/26/2006, 03:31 PM

Because without one, some political economists argue that market forces would act to stagnate low-wage payscales at levels at which those workers would find it impossible to raise a family. Kinda like now. Anyone remember the last time it was raised in Oklahoma?

Right now in OK:
Employers of ten or more full time employees at any one location and employers with annual gross sales over $100,000 irrespective of number of full time employees. $5.15

All other employers. $2.00 THAT's TWO FLIPPIN' DOLLARS FOLKS!

Is any business in Oklahoma paying $2/hour? How many places are even paying $5.15/hour right now? Good luck filling those jobs. When the economy is good, wages will rise on their own. When the economy is bad, wages go down--which is when a minimum wage does more harm than good. What happens when the economy heads south and a business can't afford to pay somebody $5.15/hour? Without the minimum wage, it can decrease hourly pay. With the minimum wage, it has to fire people. Making $4.50/hour beats making $0/hour any time.

I worked in a place with lots of minimum wage workers the last time the federal minimum wage was raised. As soon as the mimimum wage went up, people had their hours cut. Then we had to raise our prices, business went down, and people got their hours cut even more. What a great deal, huh?

The minimum wage should not be a "living wage". Minimum wage is for high school kids with summer jobs, not somebody trying to support a family. If you have a family, get a better job. If you can't, you shouldn't have had kids you can't afford to take care of.

yermom

3/26/2006, 03:33 PM

ok, so it's ok for messicans to work for oranges, but Americans need to feed their families?

85Sooner

3/26/2006, 03:43 PM

It is pretty much a total myth that the workers work for less than americans.

I know several business owners who use day laborers and they won't get in his truck for under 10.00 per hour.

There are nearly 11 million immigrants here Illegally. While they do pay sales taxes, gas taxes.etc... They do not pay medicare taxes even though they recieve free health care. They do not pay Soc sec taxes even though they receive benefits. They do not pay property taxes per se, even though all of their children attend public schools. Most of the money they make is sent SOTB.

Outside of that it really screws up the US census. The laws on the books should be enforced. All those here now can pony up 100.00 bucks a piece to get a 1 year deferment to stay here. After that, we start sending them home and sending the bill to Mr Fox. At the same time we start getting rid of alot of the gimme programs out there and those recipients will be able to have time to go fill those jobs. All of this is totally possible if we didn't have so many linguini spined politicians.

Cam

3/26/2006, 04:24 PM

They all pay sales tax, property tax, gasoline tax, etc. just like everybody else. How are they supposed to pay income tax? A lot of them probably don't make enough to have to pay income tax in the first place.
You're assuming that illegals own thier homes. The vast majority rent.

How should they pay income tax? Well, let's see. Oh, I know. How bout the become legal?

Personal insurance as in health insurance? Give me a break. Many Americans can't afford health insurance. How many born and bred Oklahomans have auto insurance? I just saw a TV commercial for one of those places that sells insurance by the month--just long enough for a f'in hillbilly to get his car tag renewed.
Can't disagree with that. I would argue that the percentage of illegals with no isurance is much higher than Americans with no insurance.

Oh please. Mexican workers contribute to the economy more than a large number of Americans. They buy stuff, pay taxes, and provide low cost labor to keep the economy going.
Americans don't buy stuff? Importing their food and clothing must be pretty damn expensive.

If we make it more difficult for the good guys (people who just want a job) to come across the border, we'll make it harder to spot the bad guys (criminals and terrorists).
So you're saying we'll make it easier for drug dealers to come into the country by tightening the boarders? Please explain that one cause the current system sure as hell isn't working.

Okla-homey

3/26/2006, 05:45 PM

Can't disagree with that. I would argue that the percentage of illegals with no isurance is much higher than Americans with no insurance.

You have obviously never lived in Alabama.;)

TheHumanAlphabet

3/26/2006, 08:09 PM

"When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God."

This sounds rather quoran-/islam-ish...

Okla-homey

3/26/2006, 08:16 PM

This sounds rather quoran-/islam-ish...

Wow, imagine that, a holy book of scripture which commands us to be nice to each other. ;)

Vaevictis

3/26/2006, 08:17 PM

This sounds rather quoran-/islam-ish...

Gee, the Islamic God is the God of Abraham. The Jewish God is the God of Abraham. And the Christian God is the God of Abraham.

I'm absolutely shocked that they may have stuff that sounds similar.

Okla-homey

3/26/2006, 08:28 PM

Okay, I'm gonna post one more thing on this subject and I'm out.

When my grandfather was alive, he used to tell me stories about "hard times" in Oklahoma in the 1930's (aka that whole Steinbeck GOW thing)

Anyway, in the early thirties, he and my grandmother hopped a "Traveling Bureau" car and lit out for California to try to make a living. Grandpa had found himself completely unable to feed them on cotton in Carter County as his family had for the previous 50 years. Both in their twenties and no children at the time so they were in better shape than most.

Shortly after they got to LA and had found work, (he a hotel night desk clerk and she a hotel maid), they were at a lunch counter one Saturday afternoon and overheard two locals b1tching about the "infestation which was ruining the state" and how "something had to be done" and the fact these "pests" were "eating up all the resources."

After those two guys left, my grandmother asked the girl at the register what this horrible plague was those men were discussing.

She replied, "Oh, just them damn Okies"

I've never forgotten that story, and I think its lesson is relevant today on this "illegal alien" issue.

OklahomaTuba

3/26/2006, 08:29 PM

The God may be the same, but I have a REAL hard time believing my God would create anything as violant as the Koran IMO.

One of the main reasons I reject it.

Scott D

3/26/2006, 08:36 PM

The God may be the same, but I have a REAL hard time believing my God would create anything as violant as the Koran IMO.

One of the main reasons I reject it.

you do realize that by rejecting the Quran you are rejecting the Old Testament as well. You know, the God that was more than willing to wipe out entire populations of people for being heretics.

OklahomaTuba

3/26/2006, 08:39 PM

you do realize that by rejecting the Quran you are rejecting the Old Testament as well. You know, the God that was more than willing to wipe out entire populations of people for being heretics.

No, I wouldnt be.

See, the Koran was written well after the Torah.

And I firmly believe that the God of the Torah sent us Jesus Christ, and not the butcher that was Muhammad.

So the Koran is more a perversion of the Torah, and The Bible IMO, not the other way around.

Scott D

3/26/2006, 08:44 PM

No, I wouldnt be.

See, the Koran was written well after the Torah.

And I firmly believe that the God of the Torah sent us Jesus Christ, and not the butcher that was Muhammad.

So the Koran is more a perversion of the Torah, and The Bible IMO, not the other way around.

The basis for your so called 'perversion' had to begin somewhere, that somewhere was the Old Testament whether you like it or not.

mdklatt

3/26/2006, 09:25 PM

You're assuming that illegals own thier homes. The vast majority rent.

How do renters not pay property taxes? I guess the landlord pays those out of his pocket....

How should they pay income tax? Well, let's see. Oh, I know. How bout the become legal?

Then we need to make it easier for them to become legal.

Americans don't buy stuff?

That's not the issue. You said illegals were freeloaders, even though they contribute to the economy as much as anybody else (and more than quite a few genuine freeloaders).

So you're saying we'll make it easier for drug dealers to come into the country by tightening the boarders? Please explain that one cause the current system sure as hell isn't working.

No, we'll make it easier to tighten the borders by making it easier for the job-seeking immigrants to enter the country legally. Right now, we're wasting our resources trying to catch everybody crossing the border illegally when most of them are harmless. If we funnel all the harmless people through regular crossings (by making them guest workers or whatever), we'll cut down on the number of people crossing illegally. This will make it easier to catch everybody who is crossing illegally.

OklahomaTuba

3/26/2006, 09:27 PM

The basis for your so called 'perversion' had to begin somewhere, that somewhere was the Old Testament whether you like it or not.
Explains why muslims get along so well with the Jews, since they have so much in common.

Cam

3/26/2006, 09:56 PM

That's not the issue. You said illegals were freeloaders, even though they contribute to the economy as much as anybody else (and more than quite a few genuine freeloaders).
Who do you think pays for an illegals medical care? It sure as hell ain't the illegals. Yes, they are freeloading.

They don't pay the same taxes that we as Americans do, but want to use the services paid for by those taxes. That is why they make zero effort to become legal. They know they're only going to get deported if there's a complaint made against them.

Seriously, you should talk to some illegals. I think your stance might change.

That's it for me on this.

Legal vs Illegal is the issue, nothing else.

TheHumanAlphabet

3/26/2006, 11:01 PM

Gee, the Islamic God is the God of Abraham. The Jewish God is the God of Abraham. And the Christian God is the God of Abraham.

I'm absolutely shocked that they may have stuff that sounds similar.

'zactly what I mean. It appears someone is not getting the message of their prophet...

FaninAma

3/27/2006, 12:31 AM

Starting about 1840, folks said the same things about the Irish, then the Chinese, then the Italians, then eastern Europeans, then the Japanese, then the Vietnamese, now its Latin America's turn in the barrel. This too shall pass.

No it won't beause the illegal immigrants from Latin America are much less interested in assimilating into American society compared to the other ethnic groups you mentioned. Plus, how many of the previous groups were here illegally? Big difference, IMO.

I do think the hefty fines and legal punishments should be reserved for employers who knowingly employed illegal aliens or took little action to verify their status.

FaninAma

3/27/2006, 12:41 AM

if we are going to follow Leviticus, they better hope none of them are gay ;)

and what happened to the above tribes as a result?

Didn't you know that Native Americans prospered under the European settlers and went on to currently have a prominent role in American society today?:rolleyes:

Great comeback.

And having 2 cultures and languages have certainly helped turn Canada into a cohesive world power.:D

Okla-homey

3/27/2006, 06:16 AM

Plus, how many of the previous groups were here illegally? Big difference, IMO.

I don't think we even had any formal or restrictive immigration policy at all until the very late 19c. I believe it got teeth after WWI around 1920. Therefore, an awful lot of those earlier immigrant groups couldn't have been here "illegally" since all anyone had to do to eventually become an American was book passage and show up.

That's kinda what's happening with Latino immigrants, 'cept they don't have to cross the ocean -- unless arriving from Cuba, and in that case, even today, if they make it to our soil, they get to stay. Of course, that reflects the political power of the Cuban lobby.

oops, sorry, I said I wouldn't post in this thread anymore. I'll move along now.

TheHumanAlphabet

3/27/2006, 08:20 AM

Okla'Homey, you have it right. Illegals today is/are a lot different than illegals "yester-year". As you said, the U.S. government had a policy of populating the "west" and pushing people to fill in the gaps, not only to exploit the land, but more importantly to lay claim to it. Hell, with a hole that big, Spain, France and Mexico at some point laid claim to what is now the Midwest and West. Only that they didn't have enough people to have imminent domain. So the U.S. was giving people land for free if they would farm their land for a certain period of time. My German ancestors did that and we had the farm in the family for over 150 years before the original homestead was lost in the 70s to overextended farm loans...I am pretty sure my ancestors were here legally. Germans aren't big on doing things without a plan and without a means to make it happen...

However, today, we don't need to fill up a space. We may need people to fill an economic slot, but we can do that with a legal guest worker program, not by granting amnesty to all illegals that happen to cross the border.

If Cuba wasn't commie, they wouldn't have the get out of Cuba free pass they have today...

Osce0la

3/27/2006, 11:32 AM

I'm all for it. If they're going to learn OUR language, pay taxes, and actually be a benefit to us by coming here, I have no problem with them being here. I'm tired of Americans having to cater to them though. I have a friend that was turned down from a job at freakin Wal Mart (of all places - WAL MART)...Why??? Because he couldn't speak spanish. An American, in America, was turned down from a job because he couldn't speak Spanish.

JohnnyMack

3/27/2006, 11:37 AM

Screw 'em. Build the wall.

Force them to come through legally just like my ancestors did.

If we expedite the process this flow of immigrants could pay for construction of the wall with income tax paid. Kinda like a turnpike.

C&CDean

3/27/2006, 11:58 AM

I could give a **** what language they speak. I could give a **** if they learn English. Or not. Just don't ask me to read literature, road signs, etc. printed in their foreign language. Don't use my tax dollars to print literature, etc. in a foreign language.

Speak whatever mumbo-jumbo you want, but don't expect me to support it.

Vaevictis

3/27/2006, 12:09 PM

No, I wouldnt be.

See, the Koran was written well after the Torah.

The Quran, like the Bible, essentially includes the Torah (with some modifications) plus a "new deal" as it were, describing God's new covenent with Muhammad's followers, rather like the Christian "new deal" describing Jesus' (and thus God's) new covenent with Jesus' followers.

To reject the Quran wholesale is to reject at least parts of the Old Testament, and thus the Bible in part. (The most obvious of which being the parts about Abraham, because all three religions have essentially the same story about him.)

It would be more accurate to say that you reject that Muhammad was a prophet, implying that you reject the parts of the Quran that Muhammad himself penned.

And I firmly believe that the God of the Torah sent us Jesus Christ, and not the butcher that was Muhammad.

Discriminating on the basis of being a "butcher" is a very poor way of discriminating between the three religions. God has apparently performed many acts which could only be described as "butchery" if a human performed them. The only thing excusing his behavior is that he's apparently not subject to the same morality that we mortals are, simply because he's God.

So the Koran is more a perversion of the Torah, and The Bible IMO, not the other way around.

The Jews might say the same thing about the Bible ;)