Hate Crime

[OU Adonis]

MD brought up the subject in another thread.

Anyone else think classifying things as a "hate" crime is stupid?

Does it matter why someone murders someone else?

If my wife was murdered because of a robbery, and the guy got less of a punishment than someone who murdered because of orientation or race, I would be pretty ****ed.

[olevetonahill]

MD brought up the subject in another thread.

Anyone else think classifying things as a "hate" crime is stupid?

Does it matter why someone murders someone else?

If my wife was murdered because of a robbery, and the guy got less of a punishment than someone who murdered because of orientation or race, I would be pretty ****ed.
Tru dat if I shoot someone its gonna be because I hate em .;)

[mdklatt]

Anyone else think classifying things as a "hate" crime is stupid?

Yes.



Does it matter why someone murders someone else?


No.



If my wife was murdered because of a robbery, and the guy got less of a punishment than someone who murdered because of orientation or race, I would be pretty ****ed.

Exactly.

Would a minority on majority crime (black on white, gay on straight, etc.) automatically be assumed to be a "hate crime"?

[Jimminy Crimson]

Would a minority on majority crime (black on white, gay on straight, etc.) automatically be assumed to be a "hate crime"?

According to the criteria for when they use the word 'hate crime', then yes.

[GottaHavePride]

MD brought up the subject in another thread.

Anyone else think classifying things as a "hate" crime is stupid?

Does it matter why someone murders someone else?

If my wife was murdered because of a robbery, and the guy got less of a punishment than someone who murdered because of orientation or race, I would be pretty ****ed.

And that is our presentation on "Hate Crime Laws: A Savage Hypocracy".

[sanantoniosooner]

As long as this thread is mostly white males posting, the opinion wont change much.

[slickdawg]

Was Reginald Denny the victim of a hate crime?

[Scott D]

MD brought up the subject in another thread.

Anyone else think classifying things as a "hate" crime is stupid?

Does it matter why someone murders someone else?

If my wife was murdered because of a robbery, and the guy got less of a punishment than someone who murdered because of orientation or race, I would be pretty ****ed.

hate crimes don't always involve killing someone. This (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060321/NEWS02/603210421/1004) happened recently, and was caught on the security cameras at the station. They are calling it 'ethnic intimidation' which is just a pc way of saying 'hate crime'.

As for the issue with the fictional wife, wouldn't it 'technically' be hate, since one could argue that maybe the perp. hates women?

[mdklatt]

According to the criteria for when they use the word 'hate crime', then yes.

If A on B and B on A crimes are all considered hate crimes then it's slightly less objectionable. However, it's still terribly stupid. How can you prove hate, unless the accused is a skinhead who went on a shooting spree in a black church or something? And since when did hating somebody become illegal? "Hate crimes" are political correctness run amok, and something straight out of Fahrenheit 451 or 1984.

[Scott D]

Was Reginald Denny the victim of a hate crime?

One argument is yes, the other argument is that he was a victim of some very unfortunate circumstances.

[sanantoniosooner]

It's amazing how people who have never experienced biggotry have no understanding of it's impact.

[OU Adonis]

hate crimes don't always involve killing someone. This (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060321/NEWS02/603210421/1004) happened recently, and was caught on the security cameras at the station. They are calling it 'ethnic intimidation' which is just a pc way of saying 'hate crime'.

Right, but let me ask you this Scott. Why should it matter what the reason is behind a criminal act.

What if a guy runs me off the road and causes great bodily harm to me because of road rage, and someone who runs a (insert group here) off the road because he hates (insert group here) and causes great bodily harm, why should their treatment be anything different?

Another situation

Is beating up someone because they made fun of my shoes a "better" reason to get in a fight than because he is black?

[Scott D]

It's amazing how people who have never experienced biggotry have no understanding of it's impact.

amazing how that can work, isn't it.

[OU Adonis]

It's amazing how people who have never experienced biggotry have no understanding of it's impact.

I have experienced biggotry, but since I am in the majority it means that its not really biggotry.

[sanantoniosooner]

Have you ever been sat at the back of a restaraunt because you were with a black person?

Have you ever had a black friend pull over to make sure the Highway patrol doesn't 'abuse' you some how?

Have you ever seen someone walk up the the white guy on a jobsite and assume that he was in charge?

Google "luxury of ignorance" and "legacy of privilige".

Just because this stuff gets blown out of proportion A LOT doesn't mean it isn't real also.

[1stTimeCaller]

I'm sure this legislation was created to keep a politician in office because it makes people feel all warm and fuzzy inside, much like the Brady Bill did.

[mdklatt]

hate crimes don't always involve killing someone. This (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060321/NEWS02/603210421/1004) happened recently, and was caught on the security cameras at the station. They are calling it 'ethnic intimidation' which is just a pc way of saying 'hate crime'.



A 26-year-old man has been accused of smashing up a Redford Township gas station staffed by Arab Americans and threatening to kill employees.
...
He is charged with arson, malicious destruction of property, assault with a dangerous weapon and ethnic intimidation. Lauderback is in the Wayne County Jail.


Aren't arson, vandalism, and assault bad enough without throwing "ethnic intimidation" in there?

[1stTimeCaller]

Have you ever been sat at the back of a restaraunt because you were with a black person?

Have you ever had a black friend pull over to make sure the Highway patrol doesn't 'abuse' you some how?

Have you ever seen someone walk up the the white guy on a jobsite and assume that he was in charge?

Google "luxury of ignorance" and "legacy of privilige".

Just because this stuff gets blown out of proportion A LOT doesn't mean it isn't real also.

please tell me this isn't your list of bigotry in action. I would hope that you would have some examples for your argument.

[sanantoniosooner]

Aren't arson, vandalism, and assault bad enough without throwing "ethnic intimidation" in there?
Does the REASON for the crime ever become important in deciding the punishment for the crime?

[Scott D]

Right, but let me ask you this Scott. Why should it matter what the reason is behind a criminal act.

What if a guy runs me off the road and causes great bodily harm to me because of road rage, and someone who runs a (insert group here) off the road because he hates (insert group here) and causes great bodily harm, why should their treatment be anything different?

Another situation

Is beating up someone because they made fun of my shoes a "better" reason to get in a fight than because he is black?

So far as I know, there aren't actually any more harsher sentences given out for the crime. A murder is a murder, and it's how sleazy the lawyer is that varies the sentence.

I think the real reason that 'Hate Crime' protection came about was because of vast injustices in the past. The murder of Medgar Evers is a prime example of that, along with the murders James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and Michael Schwerner. In both cases those guilty got acquitted despite the evidence, in crimes they were clearly guilty of committing.

Another aspect to consider when it comes to things being defined as 'Hate Crimes' is the thought process of.."Was said person acting rationally? Are they known to generally act rationally except on the matter of a singular subject?" It simply comes down to a matter of was the attack calculated or chance?

[sanantoniosooner]

please tell me this isn't your list of bigotry in action. I would hope that you would have some examples for your argument.
Dude, this is child's play stuff that I've witnessed first hand.

We both know worse stuff than that happens daily.

[OU Adonis]

Have you ever been sat at the back of a restaraunt because you were with a black person?

Have you ever had a black friend pull over to make sure the Highway patrol doesn't 'abuse' you some how?

Have you ever seen someone walk up the the white guy on a jobsite and assume that he was in charge?

Google "luxury of ignorance" and "legacy of privilige".

Just because this stuff gets blown out of proportion A LOT doesn't mean it isn't real also.

I have been told I don't "Belong here and need to leave", this wasn't too long ago either.

If my kids wanted a scholorship, they would have to score higher than other people on standardized testing for the same shot.

[1stTimeCaller]

Does the REASON for the crime ever become important in deciding the punishment for the crime?

in the past it only counted for murder, that I know of and race wasn't a determining factor for Murder 1 vs Murder2, manslaughter, etc.

[mdklatt]

Have you ever been sat at the back of a restaraunt because you were with a black person?

No, but I don't go to Denny's very often. :D



Just because this stuff gets blown out of proportion A LOT doesn't mean it isn't real also.

You cannot legislate morality. You cannot legislate tolerance. All the hate crime laws in the world will not make prejudice go away.

[Scott D]

Aren't arson, vandalism, and assault bad enough without throwing "ethnic intimidation" in there?

Sure they are, but they were targetted for whom they were. The threats were made to them because of whom they were. The other criminal acts occurred, because of whom they were. I've seen the guy who owns the gas station, he doesn't 'look or sound' middle eastern at all.

It's the threats that made it ethnic intimidation, not the actual crimes committed.

[sanantoniosooner]

http://www.tolerance.org/maps/hate/state.jsp?S=OK&m=3

[Scott D]

please tell me this isn't your list of bigotry in action. I would hope that you would have some examples for your argument.

:mad:

[1stTimeCaller]

I have been told I don't "Belong here and need to leave", this wasn't too long ago either.

If my kids wanted a scholorship, they would have to score higher than other people on standardized testing for the same shot.

I got a check for $750 because I was part of the class in a class action lawsuit vs. OU, the Oklahoma BOR and some others due to me being a white male having to score higher than non-white males to get a publically funded scholarship to OU.

I can't remember the name of the case but Ed White was the attorney for the class.

[Vaevictis]

Anyone else think classifying things as a "hate" crime is stupid?

A bit.



Does it matter why someone murders someone else?

Um, yes. If it didn't, we couldn't have varying degrees of murder and varying degrees of punishment within the murder.

Scenario 1: Truly schitzophrenic guy murders someone else. Independant, neutral psychiatrist testifies that his never would have happened if he had been properly diagnosed and treated, and never will happen again now that he's been diagnosed and is being treated. (Assume the psychiatrist is correct and truthful for purposes fo this scenario.)
Scenario 2: Guy gets his rocks off by slowly killing female children in front of their mothers.

Surely you don't think that the "why" doesn't matter in these cases, do you? :)

Why matters. But I'm pretty sure "hate" versus non-hate is already coverable under first degree murder versus second degree murder versus manslaughter distinctions.

[OU Adonis]

http://www.tolerance.org/maps/hate/state.jsp?S=OK&m=3

Not all of those in Oklahoma were white groups.

[Mjcpr]

I got a check for $750 because I was part of the class in a class action lawsuit vs. OU, the Oklahoma BOR and some others due to me being a white male having to score higher than non-white males to get a publically funded scholarship to OU.

I can't remember the name of the case but Ed White was the attorney for the class.

Did Ed get his $750 too?

[mdklatt]

Another aspect to consider when it comes to things being defined as 'Hate Crimes' is the thought process of.."Was said person acting rationally? Are they known to generally act rationally except on the matter of a singular subject?" It simply comes down to a matter of was the attack calculated or chance?

The legal concept of premeditation already covers this, doesn't it?

[1stTimeCaller]

Ed prolly raked in 6 figures. The named plaintiffs got 5 figures. I think there were about 5 or 6 named.

[Scott D]

The legal concept of premeditation already covers this, doesn't it?

It has to be proven that he went into that gas station with the intent of verbally intimidating the employees. It also has to be proven that he went to the gas station with the intent of causing malicious damage to the property.

[sanantoniosooner]

You cannot legislate morality. You cannot legislate tolerance. All the hate crime laws in the world will not make prejudice go away.

You can legislate against acting on hate.

[sanantoniosooner]

Not all of those in Oklahoma were white groups.
which one wasn't?

the ONE black seperatist?

[1stTimeCaller]

Am I the only person in this thread that has been discriminated against by the State and received a judgement from the State due to their discriminitory policies?

[Scott D]

A bit.



Um, yes. If it didn't, we couldn't have varying degrees of murder and varying degrees of punishment within the murder.

Scenario 1: Truly schitzophrenic guy murders someone else. Independant, neutral psychiatrist testifies that his never would have happened if he had been properly diagnosed and treated, and never will happen again now that he's been diagnosed and is being treated. (Assume the psychiatrist is correct and truthful for purposes fo this scenario.)
Scenario 2: Guy gets his rocks off by slowly killing female children in front of their mothers.

Surely you don't think that the "why" doesn't matter in these cases, do you? :)

Why matters. But I'm pretty sure "hate" versus non-hate is already coverable under first degree murder versus second degree murder versus manslaughter distinctions.

Scenario 2 would 'affect' the public more than Scenario 1, and said perp would likely be considered to be hateful with females.

[Scott D]

which one wasn't?

the ONE black seperatist?

I know that the Nation of Islam in Tulsa must be frightening ;)

[mdklatt]

Why matters. But I'm pretty sure "hate" versus non-hate is already coverable under first degree murder versus second degree murder versus manslaughter distinctions.

Exactly. A "hate crime" is simply a touchy-feely creation. Further evidence of it's uselessness is that a hate crime can't stand alone from a pre-existing crime. It's not illegal to hate somebody unless you do something else that is already illegal.

[Scott D]

Am I the only person in this thread that has been discriminated against by the State and received a judgement from the State due to their discriminitory policies?

I doubt it, since I was likely part of the reason you felt the need to pursue a lawsuit against the University for it's admissions process at the time.

[sanantoniosooner]

I have been told I don't "Belong here and need to leave", this wasn't too long ago either.

If my kids wanted a scholorship, they would have to score higher than other people on standardized testing for the same shot.
yeah.

reverse descrimation sucks.

Imagine how much you'd whine if you actually had to go through what they do.

[sanantoniosooner]

I know that the Nation of Islam in Tulsa must be frightening ;)
not listed on the map.

[mdklatt]

You can legislate against acting on hate.

Yeah, and we've been doing that for a lot longer than hate crime laws have existed.

[Stanley1]

Have I mentioned that I am Native American? Each of you should be forced to give me some of your land.

[Scott D]

Have I mentioned that I am Native American? Each of you should be forced to give me some of your land.

get in line fool. I'm still waiting for my 40 Acres and a Mule.

[Vaevictis]

If they really wanted to get "hate crime" criminals, they wouldn't tack on time to the end of the sentence, they'd restrict how much latitude the DA has with charging/not charging and what kind of plea bargains they can give, and they'd also require parole boards to take the hateful nature of the crime into major consideration during parole board hearings.

Tacking on all the time in the world doesn't make a bit of difference if the DA plea bargains it down to a misdemeanor or the parole board lets them get out after serving 10% of their sentence.

[Vaevictis]

Have I mentioned that I am Native American? Each of you should be forced to give me some of your land.

Do a better job of fighting for it next time, and it won't be a problem.

[Scott D]

If they really wanted to get "hate crime" criminals, they wouldn't tack on time to the end of the sentence, they'd restrict how much latitude the DA has with charging/not charging and what kind of plea bargains they can give, and they'd also require parole boards to take the hateful nature of the crime into major consideration during parole board hearings.

Tacking on all the time in the world doesn't make a bit of difference if the DA plea bargains it down to a misdemeanor or the parole board lets them get out after serving 10% of their sentence.

I agree with the sentiment that sentencing is too wishy washy, and that if you give Life in prison to someone, they should remain in prison for life. I don't agree with someone sentences to 20 years having a chance at being out in 8. I don't agree with suspended sentences. Then again, I'm also an advocate of the death penalty, along with streamlining the appeals process.

[Scott D]

not listed on the map.

me thinks you need to focus a little more on Tulsa ;)

[sanantoniosooner]

The futility of our justice system and the legimacy of hate crimes is two different topics.

[slickdawg]

Wouldn't "reverse discrimination" actually be no discrimination at all?

blacks can discriminate against whites just as well as whites can discriminate
against blacks.

[sanantoniosooner]

me thinks you need to focus a little more on Tulsa ;)
it's the black separatist group I mentioned already.

[Scott D]

Wouldn't "reverse discrimination" actually be no discrimination at all?

blacks can discriminate against whites just as well as whites can discriminate
against blacks.

I make it easy and just discriminate against people...therefore everyone can equally be offended.

[sanantoniosooner]

Wouldn't "reverse discrimination" actually be no discrimination at all?

blacks can discriminate against whites just as well as whites can discriminate
against blacks.
reverse discrimination is rules put in place that give a minority group a preference over a majority group.

I understand WHY it exists but it is an overreaction in the other direction IMO.

[C&CDean]

sanantonio,

Unless you're older than at least 50, I don't wanna hear any "sitting in the back of the bus" bull****. And unless you're black, you really shouldn't be commenting on this thread like you are.

Discrimination exists. In every facet of life. City boys are discriminated against out at the feedstore I go to. I have been discriminated against - racially - in Leesville, Louisiana, and Roxbury, Massachussetts.

People kill each other for all kinds of reasons. Road rage. Lover's spats. Money. Drugs. The color of their shoes. The color of their clothes. The color of their skin. Where they put their foreskin. And it's always hate.

"Hate crime" is what all murder/assault is.

[Stanley1]

I have been discriminated against - racially - in Leesville, Louisiana, and Roxbury, Massachussetts.



For being gay or stupid?

Or both?

;)

[OU Adonis]

The color of their skin. Where they put their foreskin. And it's always hate.


Quote of the day right there folks. I am done here.. heh

[Vaevictis]

(...) if you give Life in prison to someone, they should remain in prison for life. I don't agree with someone sentences to 20 years having a chance at being out in 8. I don't agree with suspended sentences.

It depends on the case. I personally believe prison should be less of a punishment institution and more of a "behavior modification" institution. Obviously, the purpose of punishment is "behavior modification," but the effectiveness and need for that punishment is not really forseeable at the time of the sentencing.

If all you consider is the punishment, I really believe that you are increasing the risk of the offender committing more crimes once they eventually get out. The primary goal should be changing their behavior so that they don't commit crimes once they get out; in so far as early release aligns with this goal, I agree with it.

Also, from an economic stand point, it's wasteful to continue to incarcerate someone who presents no further threat to society.

Parole and suspended sentences are good things, but you should be pretty damned sure that the person you're letting off the hook isn't a threat anymore.


Then again, I'm also an advocate of the death penalty, along with streamlining the appeals process.

The death penalty is the one place where the appeals process should *never* be streamlined. If you've unjustly incarcerated someone, you can't give them the time you've taken, but you *can* give back the time you haven't yet taken. But once you kill someone, you can't unkill them.

(FWIW, I'm also pro-death penalty, mostly under the concept of "You'd kill a mad dog, wouldn't you?" If you think that the murderer would present an imminent danger to society if s/he was ever released, and there is basically no hope of rehabilitation... death penalty without a doubt. If you think there's a chance for rehabilitation -- then give them a chance to be rehabilitated. I can understand the desire for revenge, but it's not a concept that I think should be encoded in our justice system.)

[1stTimeCaller]

I doubt it, since I was likely part of the reason you felt the need to pursue a lawsuit against the University for it's admissions process at the time.


I'm going to take that as a resounding YES.

I didn't 'feel the need to persue the lawsuit'. I wasn't one of the named plaintiffs in the case. Ed White found me while making his class. I was part of the class that was discriminated against, therefore I only received $750.00 and not $15,000 or so, like the named plaintiffs received.

And it wasn't the admission process, it was a publically funded scholarship.

[sanantoniosooner]

Dean KMA. You don't have to read my post.

I've got many good reasons for commenting on the thread and probably a lot more understanding of the topic, though nobody, even myself, has scratched the surface.

Again until somebody can explain "luxury of ignorance" or "legacy of privilige" you guys don't even begin to understand the other side of the issue.

BTW, I've got good friends of many ethnic backgrounds. Interracial marriage within the family and live, and plan to teach, in a culturally diverse city. I've got plenty of reason to care about this topic and have an opinion.

[C&CDean]

Dean KMA. You don't have to read my post.

I've got many good reasons for commenting on the thead and probably a lot more understanding of the topic, even though nobody, even myself, has scratched the surface.

Again until somebody can explain "luxury of ignorance" or "legacy of privilige" you guys don't even begin to understand the other side of the issue.

BTW, I've got good friends of many ethnic backgrounds. Interracial marriage within the family and live, and plan to teach, in a culturally diverse city. I've got plenty of reason to care about this topic and have an opinion.

Groovy. Have an opinion. Just don't act like a discriminated-against brotha who's down on whitey. Or a holier-than-thou whitebread activist who thinks because he dated a black chick back in high school somehow is more in tune with the hood. Herr Scholz tries to pull that bull**** charade on here and it doesn't fly.

In this day and age, EVERYBODY has friends and even relatives of different ethnic backgrounds. BFD. As long as people continue to self-segregate themselves (physically, and figuratively) then the problem isn't going away. People hate. For lots of reasons. I just don't see any big, glaring difference in the way people hate folks of other ethnic backgrounds - or people who cut them off in traffic. O.J. hated Nicole. Scott Peterson hated his wife. Sitting Bull hated Custer. BFD.

[slickdawg]

Groovy. Have an opinion. Just don't act like a discriminated-against brotha who's down on whitey. Or a holier-than-thou whitebread activist who thinks because he dated a black chick back in high school somehow is more in tune with the hood. Herr Scholz tries to pull that bull**** charade on here and it doesn't fly.

In this day and age, EVERYBODY has friends and even relatives of different ethnic backgrounds. BFD. As long as people continue to self-segregate themselves (physically, and figuratively) then the problem isn't going away. People hate. For lots of reasons. I just don't see any big, glaring difference in the way people hate folks of other ethnic backgrounds - or people who cut them off in traffic. O.J. hated Nicole. Scott Peterson hated his wife. Sitting Bull hated Custer. BFD.


Dean, I can't give you enough spek on this one.

[sanantoniosooner]

I used to play basketball with some gangmembers in Moore.

They would take the evening to go beat the crap of of some black homos that made their race look bad.

It's different than a crime of passion.

[C&CDean]

I used to play basketball with some gangmembers in Moore.

They would take the evening to go beat the crap of of some black homos that made their race look bad.

It's different than a crime of passion.

Now I know you're full of ****. There ain't no "gang members" in Moore, and everybody knows blacks can't be gay. DOH.

[sanantoniosooner]

If you need to take a break while slickdawg shines your knob, I'll understand.

[Mjcpr]

If you need to take a break while slickdawg shines your knob, I'll understand.

Dean likes the Cowboys, Yankees and Lakers too.

[colleyvillesooner]

snap!

[sanantoniosooner]

Dean likes the Cowboys, Yankees and Lakers too.
figures.

[C&CDean]

Dean likes the Cowboys, Yankees and Lakers too.

You know, I can kill you with a mere thought. You might want to think about that before you post some tripe like this again.

[C&CDean]

If you need to take a break while slickdawg shines your knob, I'll understand.

Did somebody just fart in the shower, or did righteous brotha boy say something?

[handcrafted]

SAS is on a one-way trip to banesville...

[sanantoniosooner]

You know, I can kill you with a mere thought. .
I have to use rolled up newspapers.

[Vaevictis]

You know, I can kill you with a mere thought. You might want to think about that before you post some tripe like this again.

I guess truth is a defense to slander doesn't apply on internet message boards? :(

[sanantoniosooner]

Did somebody just fart in the shower, or did righteous brotha boy say something?
It's funny how anyone with an opinion that involves standards is "self righteous".

[OU Adonis]

I almost got rolled by these guys awhile back and I didn't run screaming hate crime.

http://www.seanmulholland.com/arc/images/m4247323-4669-small.jpg

[mdklatt]

It's different than a crime of passion.

And the law already made that disctinction prior to hate crimes, so what's the big deal?

[C&CDean]

pffffft. Standards schmandards. I'm going home.

[sanantoniosooner]

I almost got rolled by these guys awhile back and I didn't run screaming hate crime.

http://www.seanmulholland.com/arc/images/m4247323-4669-small.jpg
You put ketchup on perfectly seasoned dog.

What did you expect?

[sanantoniosooner]

And the law already made that disctinction prior to hate crimes, so what's the big deal?
motivation for murder or brutality is always part of the penalty judgement.

Of all the stinking advantages our government has give minority groups I can't understand why hate crimes is the one getting peoples goat.

It's the ONE I can tolerate.

[mdklatt]

Of all the stinking advantages our government has give minority groups I can't understand why hate crimes is the one getting peoples goat.


It's redundant, nonsensical, and redundant.

[slickdawg]

If you need to take a break while slickdawg shines your knob, I'll understand.

Explain to me how native Africans who conquered other tribes of native
Africans and forced them into a life of slavery is a hate crime.

[Mjcpr]

I think the slogan 'Just Say No to Hate' would've worked wonders but it might be too late now.

[mdklatt]

I think the slogan 'Just Say No to Hate' would've worked wonders but it might be too late now.

Once we finish defeating drugs, illiteracy, poverty, and terror we should declare a global war on hate.

[colleyvillesooner]

HOOPER
Archie and Jughead were lovers.
(sips his drink)

BANKY
Shut the **** up.

HOOPER
It's true. Archie was the bitch and
Jughead was the butch - that's why
Jughead wears that crown-looking hat
all the time: he the king, of queen
Archie's world.

BANKY
Man, I feel a hate-crime coming on

:D

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

MD brought up the subject in another thread.

Anyone else think classifying things as a "hate" crime is stupid?

Does it matter why someone murders someone else?

If my wife was murdered because of a robbery, and the guy got less of a punishment than someone who murdered because of orientation or race, I would be pretty ****ed.Hate Crime designation is MADNESS. Who the heck thought that one up in the first place?

[Half a Hundred]

Hate Crime designation is MADNESS. Who the heck thought that one up in the first place?

Yeah, it's essentially punishing someone for their thoughts. Didn't some English guy write a book a couple of decades ago about that sort of thing?

[sanantoniosooner]

Explain to me how native Africans who conquered other tribes of native
Africans and forced them into a life of slavery is a hate crime.
Oppression for reasons of maintaining a position of power is different frome dragging somebody behind a truck because they are a fag.

[sanantoniosooner]

Yeah, it's essentially punishing someone for their thoughts. Didn't some English guy write a book a couple of decades ago about that sort of thing?
yeah hate crime legislation is about thought control.

genius.

[yermom]

Oppression for reasons of maintaining a position of power is different frome dragging somebody behind a truck because they are a fag.

so dragging some dude at random behind a truck is less wrong?

[sanantoniosooner]

so dragging some dude at random behind a truck is less wrong?
uh.....no.

People are comparing apples and oranges. It's not that one is worse than the other. It's that one doen't imply anything factual about the other.

[yermom]

so what is the difference? why differentiate?

[slickdawg]

I see no reason to differentiate - a crime is a crime. The overwhelming
majority of them are money/drug/sex related and don't have a thing to
do with color. That's just how it is.

[sanantoniosooner]

so what is the difference? why differentiate?
Comparing enforced slavery from another culture on another continent to what happens here is silly.

We can't be responsible for what happens there, but we do have an impact on what is legal and/or acceptable here.

[yermom]

i'm not talking about racism, i'm talking about why it matters that the dead kid on the fencepost is gay or not

[sanantoniosooner]

i'm not talking about racism, i'm talking about why it matters that the dead kid on the fencepost is gay or not
Does the motivation for a crime matter at all?

Why do people get more upset if a child is raped as opposed to an adult?

We do descriminate the severity of the crime based on the circumstances surrounding it.

[slickdawg]

Comparing enforced slavery from another culture on another continent to what happens here is silly.

We can't be responsible for what happens there, but we do have an impact on what is legal and/or acceptable here.


And with that said, I can't do a damned thing about what happened in
Mississippi, or the rest of the US before I was even born.

I can do everything I possibly can to make sure everyone I am associated
with gets the same treatment and respect from me. There are bigots of
all races, and you just have to ignore those people, because nobody
can change them.

Most of the "hate crime" criminals in Mississippi have previous records
of equally violent crimes against their own race. So why call one
a "hate crime" and the other just a "crime".

[yermom]

Does the motivation for a crime matter at all?

Why do people get more upset if a child is raped as opposed to an adult?

We do descriminate the severity of the crime based on the circumstances surrounding it.

i just don't see the difference between say, a guy that kills someone for scuffing their shoes, or kills someone because he doesn't like their skin color

they are both idiots that don't respect life

[slickdawg]

i just don't see the difference between say, a guy that kills someone for scuffing their shoes, or kills someone because he doesn't like their skin color

they are both idiots that don't respect life


EGGGGGZACKLYYYY@@!@#$@%!#$%

[sanantoniosooner]

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2004/methodology.htm

One reason you label something as a hate crime is to keep a statistic and have a reference point on where society is. It's not enough to say "we know there is a problem". You have to be able to quantify and track it so that you can plan a strategy for dealing with it. You can't get rid of it, but you can have a positive impact on the problem.

For whites that don't have to deal with the issue, I can understand why it's not prudent to solve the issue.

[slickdawg]

1998 or 1999 - Jackson, Mississippi.

99 homicides in the city. 97 were black on black crime.

Should that be 97 hate crimes? I call it 99 homicides.

[yermom]

yeah, but when i beat someone down for being an *******, it shouldn't matter if they are black or gay

it kinda reminds me of how they want to label all crimes as terrorism now :rolleyes:

[sanantoniosooner]

1998 or 1999 - Jackson, Mississippi.

99 homicides in the city. 97 were black on black crime.

Should that be 97 hate crimes? I call it 99 homicides.
and in '04 Mississippi had 2 cases of hate crime registered.

Sounds like they really got carried away with the designation, huh.

[slickdawg]

and in '04 Mississippi had 2 cases of hate crime registered.

Sounds like they really got carried away with the designation, huh.


Why designate it? They are crimes, punish the criminals accordingly.

[yermom]

i guess it's not the designation that is the problem, ok keep stats, but making the penalty stiffer doesn't make sense to me, i think the punishment should fit the crime

two people that commit premeditated murder should get the same sentence

i think the main issue i see is for non-lethal assault, i seem to remember hearing pretty stiff sentencing for things like this, worse than killing someone in some cases

[sanantoniosooner]

Why designate it? They are crimes, punish the criminals accordingly.
So you can address the issue within society.

Labeling crime is as much about finding a way to reduce the crime as it is about punishment.

[sanantoniosooner]

i guess it's not the designation that is the problem, ok keep stats, but making the penalty stiffer doesn't make sense to me, i think the punishment should fit the crime

two people that commit premeditated murder should get the same sentence

i think the main issue i see is for non-lethal assault, i seem to remember hearing pretty stiff sentencing for things like this, worse that killing someone in some cases
yeah, and the courts hit corporations hard to make a point a lot of times also.

[slickdawg]

i guess it's not the designation that is the problem, ok keep stats, but making the penalty stiffer doesn't make sense to me, i think the punishment should fit the crime

two people that commit premeditated murder should get the same sentence

i think the main issue i see is for non-lethal assault, i seem to remember hearing pretty stiff sentencing for things like this, worse than killing someone in some cases


We've got gazillions of laws on the books for crimes and punishemnt.

We need STRICT ENFORCEMENT of these.

[slickdawg]

So you can address the issue within society.

Labeling crime is as much about finding a way to reduce the crime as it is about punishment.


You'll never change the Byron De La Beckwith's of this world.
Or the old black guy that used to sit in front of Wal Mart and holler out
"you damned crackers" (this was in Jackson) at passing by white folks.
It's engrained in them.

[usmc-sooner]

murder is murder

whether your black, white, gay, whatever someone is still dead.

calling it a hate crime is stupid.

I'd be more afraid of the people who murder people they don't hate.

[sanantoniosooner]

Arguments for and against hate crime laws(wikipedia)


For

Many support hate crime laws, stating that their enactment gives individuals greater discouragement from committing hate crimes. Supporters also claim that all laws are subjective, and that if society can determine that one crime deserves more punishment than another (e.g. murder vs. involuntary manslaughter) then it can also determine what motivations deserve harsher punishments.

Some supporters reason that one who can be moved to violence by hatred of a class of people presents a greater danger to society than one who merely hates an individual. Their position states that if normal punishments are inadequate deterrents, then additional punishments may deter crimes motivated by hate. Other proponents of hate crime legislation consider that socially sanctioned hate is a problem, and that specific legislation is needed to protect those who are often perceived to be less worthy of protection.

Another argument sometimes advanced by supporters of hate-crime laws is that violent acts motivated by political or similar reasons are characteristic of earlier, less enlightened societies, and toleration would result in a regress to an earlier stage of social development.

Proponents point out that it is not unusual to make thoughts or states of mind (mens rea) elements of a crime. For example, the distinction between first-degree murder, second-degree murder, and manslaughter depends on the degree to which the killing was deliberate or premeditated. The definition of fraud requires scienter -- that the perpetrator knowingly defraud the victim.
[edit]

Against

Others oppose hate crime laws, stating that imposing a greater penalty on an act committed in hate would thus make hating illegal, citing the novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, in which certain thoughts were legally punishable crimes. Some Americans feel this to be a direct infringement on First Amendment rights. Others argue that such legislation provides special status to certain protected groups, even though it protects both minorities and those in the majority. They also say that distinguishing a hate crime requires reading the mind of the accused, a dubious prospect at best and perhaps not something that should be considered when deciding on punishments. In short, critics argue that hate crime legislation criminalizes thought. Some American critics believe that it also violates the Fourteenth Amendment by denying "equal protection of the laws".

In addition, it is argued that hate crime prosecutions seek to punish an individual for motive rather than intent. For example, the difference between first or second degree murder is intent, not motive. It is one thing to distinguish between different states of mens rea, or guilty mind, such as between knowingly, recklessly, or negligently putting someone at risk. It is another to distinguish whether someone who knowingly attempts to harm another person is motivated by hatred for the particular person or by hatred of a class of persons to which he or she belongs. The law has not traditionally made the latter distinction.

It is also said that hate crime laws are largely unnecessary, as a crime committed solely on the basis of hatred of a group would already be punished harshly by the justice system. If no argument could be made in mitigation, thereby reducing the culpability of the offender or the seriousness of the offence, the offender would be punished to the full extent of the law.

[sanantoniosooner]

You'll never change the Byron De La Beckwith's of this world.
Or the old black guy that used to sit in front of Wal Mart and holler out
"you damned crackers" (this was in Jackson) at passing by white folks.
It's engrained in them.
changing society isn't about the old farts.

you really have trouble thinking outside your box, don't you.

[usmc-sooner]

changing society isn't about the old farts.

you really have trouble thinking outside your box, don't you.

can anyone posting on the SO accuse another of not thinking outside the box?

[sanantoniosooner]

can anyone posting on the SO accuse another of not thinking outside the box?
I know what I meant.

I have no idea what you mean.

[usmc-sooner]

I mean you're carrying on this stupid argument on a message board and accusing him or her of not thinking outside the box. Kinda lame IMO

[sanantoniosooner]

I mean you're carrying on this stupid argument on a message board and accusing him or her of not thinking outside the box. Kinda lame IMO
We are discussing a topic.

Because we're a bunch of whiteys talking about oppression, biggotry and hate crimes, it requires a little effort to address it since we don't experience it any where near to the degree minorities have.

Right on cue, this IS a stupid topic for someone unlikely to have to deal with it at any point in their life.

[usmc-sooner]

I'm not a whitey and I grew up in an Indian community, and I still think your viewpoint is lame. I think biggotry and all that other stuff only stops you if you let it. (I'm speaking of now, not 40 years ago)

[sanantoniosooner]

I'm not a whitey and I grew up in an Indian community, and I still think your viewpoint is lame. I think biggotry and all that other stuff only stops you if you let it. (I'm speaking of now, not 40 years ago)
It's great that you feel that way.

Statistics wouldn't back you up. But rock on dude.

[usmc-sooner]

I don't need stats to back me up. The people I knew growing up that felt oppressed and held down by whitey, are still oppressed and held down, mostly by there own weakness, most of them love to talk about this while drinking or from prison, the ones who make the most of it don't have these problems.

As a matter of fact it's easier now than ever, white people are so afraid of being seen as racists they bend over backwords to give in to minorities that is funny.

You know it's funny I never bought into your excuses and I've made it just fine. I really don't need stats to back me up.

So how about you "rock on dude" and keep thinking outside your box

[sanantoniosooner]

I don't need stats to back me up. The people I knew growing up that felt oppressed and held down by whitey, are still oppressed and held down, mostly by there own weakness, most of them love to talk about this while drinking or from prison, the ones who make the most of it don't have these problems.

As a matter of fact it's easier now than ever, white people are so afraid of being seen as racists they bend over backwords to give in to minorities that is funny.

You know it's funny I never bought into your excuses and I've made it just fine. I really don't need stats to back me up.

So how about you "rock on dude" and keep thinking outside your box
A lot of people succeed in spite of the good old boy system. Some become part of it.

The think I love about this forum is that people only believe in extremes.
I think racism is overblown a lot of times.
I think we cater to it a lot of times in ways that we shouldn't.

But some people dismiss it based on a VERY limited exposure to the issue and declare it to be a nonissue.

I end up coming across as some political activist just because I try to explain "another" view of a topic.

[usmc-sooner]

I have had more than a limited exposure to it and I still think racism and other hatred is becoming close to a non factor today. It's almost a situation where the reverse is happening.

[sanantoniosooner]

There's no doubt the reverse happens, but, as a nation, we are not nearly as far along as you suggest.

The issue is bigger than just actual crime against individuals.

[usmc-sooner]

There's no doubt the reverse happens, but, as a nation, we are not nearly as far along as you suggest.

The issue is bigger than just actual crime against individuals.

man we are further

I go to the mall I see little white girls walking around with black boys

We live in a time where you better not bring up a minority race or fear for losing your job.

The whole deal is the only person that can hold you back in these days is yourself.

If you want to blame someone else, and let them then you probably will be oppressed and held back

[sanantoniosooner]

You do realize that the mall you hang out at is probably not a realistic cross-section of the entire nation?

here's some interesting experiments on discrimination.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/etc/view.html

There are aspects to this that a lot of people will never understand.

[usmc-sooner]

dude I've been in malls in Va, and DC where whites are the minorities and they were treated as bad as anything you'd see in any racism study. I've been a lot of places in this world and it's all the same the balance always shifts.

[sanantoniosooner]

What can I say.

Statistics are wrong. Eye witness accounts are bogus. Law enforcement is wasting their time on a non issue http://theiacp.org/documents/index.cfm?fuseaction=document&document_id=160

You got it all figured out.

[usmc-sooner]

yeah I'm wrong, I've never seen this


you got me

[sanantoniosooner]

I conceded first.

You'll have to wait for another thread to cave in.

[Vaevictis]

The whole deal is the only person that can hold you back in these days is yourself.

That's not *always* true, but there are an awful lot of "I'm a victim of racism, so I won't even bother trying to get ahead" types in the world who never get ahead only because of that attitude. :/

[SCOUT]

i just don't see the difference between say, a guy that kills someone for scuffing their shoes, or kills someone because he doesn't like their skin color

they are both idiots that don't respect life

I disagree with yermom so often I was actually surprised by the YMSSRA...

My comment to him was going to be, "Genius is often described in simple terms."