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Sooner04
3/21/2006, 11:02 PM
That's how I see our two BBall programs here at the University of Oklahoma.

On one hand you have the men. They feature lackluster attendance, an even more lackluster cluster**** of an offensive philosophy and a dabble of team dissension.

And then you've got the women, who are experiencing what a lot of people around here have known for a LONG time: this state will support a winner. The women are legitimately selling out Lloyd Noble and playing a brand of ball that is sending the natives into a tizzy.

What the hell's going on out there?
http://www.footballcoachone.com/vince2.jpg

Well, we've got two coaches with very different philosophies. One, I'll let you guess who, has formed a solid program and is now reaping the fruits of his labor. One problem, the solid recruits that come with developing a solid program don't fit the mold of player the coach needs to reach the next level of the basketball echelon.

The other coach is constantly changing. The coach reached the Final Four on a team loaded with guards and she utilized their quickness and savvy to construct an offense that was poetry in motion. Said coach had a team of role players and one star who could play anywhere on the floor and she constructed an offense to suit that bunch too. Now this coach has a player as good as anyone to ever lace up sneakers and the offense has evolved into a fast-breaking machine that takes every defensive rebound and looks to turn it into instant offense.

But why will one coach, Sherri Coale, change her ways while one, Kelvin Sampson, viciously hold onto the laurels that got him to where he is now? This is something I've really been struggling with.

For instance, in the NCAA game against Milwaukee, the announcers stated something Kelvin has mentioned several times that Terrell Everett is at his best when the game is helter-skelter. Then why, in the name of all that is Holy, if the only guy you've got on campus who can bring the ball up court is at his best when the game is at its nuttiest, don't you make the game helter-skelter? Why not open up a 3/4 court press and force the game into a frenetic pace? Why not sacrifice defensive positioning for more chances at lay-ups and easy baskets? If your offensive sets look like two yetis boinking in the snow, then why don't you predicate your offense on the two strengths you have: solid rebounding and a point guard who's good in transition.

We didn't do it, though. We kept trying the same old sets that we ran for Ryan Minor and Corey Brewer and our offensive production slipped to anorexic levels. It's sad.

Now the ladies. God, where do I begin. It's amazing what happens when you play to your strengths. Courtney is Wayman with better rebounding ability. Sherri has taken these boards and turned the team loose. Watch how quick and how far out the outlet passes are after almost every defensive rebound. Since we only have one pure shooter, Higgins, Coale has taken the blessed opportunity of having a rebounding machine and turned the rest of the team into thoroughbreds. Whereas Kelvin's boys look like thoroughbreds trying to wade through the muck at some Corpus Christi dogtrack, Sherri's got her team understanding positioning and spacing which in turn leads to open shots when the initial break is thwarted. Turnovers are high, but so are points.

And so are wins.

So, here we are now. We've got a men's team that can't get fans in the seats and we've got a women's team that is the talk of basketball. It all leads to this, in my opinion: Kelvin is in trouble. Two reasons why I believe that:

1. Bad vibe - As the team is walking off the floor, a man leads over the rail into the tunnel and hollers, "You better get your **** together, Kelvin." The strength coach almost came into the stands after him. Couple that with a marijuana incident from your point guard during Tournament week along with the ASU rumors and NCAA investigation and you've got a program coming apart at the seams.

2. Kevin Bookout - This guy would be a great holdover to ease the transition for the incoming freshmen, but he's out of eligibility. Why? Because he voted no on pursuing another year of eligibility through medical hardship. Most kids would give their left nut to play another year of college ball, but Bookout refuses to even open the option. That speaks volumes.

If the NCAA drops the boom on us, then Kelvin's days here are numbered. I honestly believe that. Meanwhile, the women are in the Sweet 16 and are two wins away from their second Final Four in the last five seasons.

Two ships passing in the night. One is chugging along, the other's sinking.

Don't believe me? Here's one last fact: since the men went to the Final Four in 2002, we've had one freshman, ONE FRESHMAN, make it to his junior season: Kevin Bookout. De'Angelo, Lavender, McKenzie, Turner, Foust, Tobias: gone, all before their junior years even began.

Abandon ship.........

SeattleOUstudent
3/21/2006, 11:05 PM
Brando.....*sniffle*

CtheB
3/21/2006, 11:05 PM
MAJOR LEAGUE SPEK 04.

william_brasky
3/21/2006, 11:18 PM
Don't believe me? Here's one last fact: since the men went to the Final Four in 2002, we've had one freshman, ONE FRESHMAN, make it to his junior season: Kevin Bookout. De'Angelo, Lavender, McKenzie, Turner, Foust, Tobias: gone, all before their junior years even began.


I wasn't aware of that last fact, but I am now.

Declan McManus
3/21/2006, 11:33 PM
Remember when I made my annual "Kelvin is killing OU basketball" post after the second round loss to Purdue a few years ago? Yeah, I'd KILL for a hard-fought second round loss at this point.

'Cause, you know, it would mean we MADE IT TO THE FREAKIN' SECOND ROUND.

picasso
3/21/2006, 11:34 PM
these are sad times when '04 is kicking the KS out the door.
my biggest disappointment is the fact we've built nothing upon that great final four team.

KC//CRIMSON
3/21/2006, 11:43 PM
word.

Sooner24
3/21/2006, 11:43 PM
One ship is the Titanic and the other is a Carnival Cruise Line ship. Which would you rather be on???

http://www.interet-general.info/IMG/titanic-2.jpg

http://www.carnival.com/CMS/Images/Datatemplates/Ships/Large/shipdetail_ti1.jpg

Party on Garth!!!

Sooner24
3/21/2006, 11:46 PM
By the way the white smoke is coming out of Terrell Everetts cabin.

http://www.interet-general.info/IMG/titanic-2.jpg

GottaHavePride
3/21/2006, 11:48 PM
Remember when I made my annual "Kelvin is killing OU basketball" post after the second round loss to Purdue a few years ago? Yeah, I'd KILL for a hard-fought second round loss at this point.

'Cause, you know, it would mean we MADE IT TO THE FREAKIN' SECOND ROUND.

Ah. The 1999-2000 season. I was there. There was abso-freakin-lutely nothing else to do anywhere near that arena.

oumartin
3/22/2006, 12:00 AM
maybe the first time I've agreed with 04. He'll probably pray its the last time I agree with him..

Excellent post man. props

william_brasky
3/22/2006, 12:03 AM
OU needs a new Captain Stubing (to play along with this theme).

I'd go short and fat, Majerus, or tall and skinny, Pelphrey.

Should I even be mentioning names? Is Kelvin looking at other jobs? The paper today said he was "traveling on business" today. Is he speaking to other Universities? Is this all just wishful thinking? Does anyone have any information?

http://www.gasolinealleyantiques.com/celebrity/images/Artwork/captainstubing.JPG

hokie19
3/22/2006, 12:04 AM
There was also abso-freakin'lutely nothing stopping us from a final 4 that year. The west region was blown wide open. We'd have been by far the best team at the regionals.

I still keep seeing missed 3's from that game in my sleep. The 2nd round last year didn't help matters. It was like deja'brick all over again.

We had so many chances to put that game away....

oumartin
3/22/2006, 12:06 AM
we can only hope brasky!
Hopefully some JUCO will snatch him up.

william_brasky
3/22/2006, 12:17 AM
indeed martin. indeed.

it's quite shocking and interesting to me that those of us who are for a change have been allowed to express their opinions on here. i appreciate it mods.

it also leads me to start thinking that we "dissenters" may be on to something. and yes, I believe there was more than one gunman. :texan:

OklahomaTuba
3/22/2006, 12:20 AM
Damn, this really sucks.

I just hope that it happens with KS leaving for another job, not JC trying to fire a guy after getting to the big dance one year.

GDC
3/22/2006, 12:22 AM
We need more 04 posts like this and less 04 antagonism.

King Crimson
3/22/2006, 07:54 AM
i don't think it's necessarily true that Bookout not seeking a medical RS "speaks volumes" about KS.

nice to see the King of America on this one: oh lord, please don't let him be misunderstood.

ouflak
3/22/2006, 08:35 AM
Well since you guys are stroking each other up so much on this thread, can we come to an agreement as a board for just the next week or two?

Any thread on Women's basketball remains only about women's basketball. I think the ladies have deserved atleast that amount of respect at this point. If anybody absolutely feels the need to post some snide comment about the men's team while reading a thread about the lady's team, they post it here. Agreed?

Soonerus
3/22/2006, 08:42 AM
All good points...Why the he__ is Kelvin so stubborn on his style of play ? You have to bend and mold your style to fit your current talent. I guess that is the part I do not understand about Kelvin...

Skysooner
3/22/2006, 09:03 AM
Traber said something the other day about Kelvin being a better coach than Sherri. I just don't see it. Sherri did more with less than Kelvin ever did. Yes, Kelvin's teams are generally solid, but they don't seem to improve that much over a certain threshold once they hit the ceiling during the season. Maybe this is because the players aren't the best in basketball or maybe it is just the generally no-mistake style that Kelvin plays.

They mentioned the other night that Sherri was likely going to be a hall of fame coach eventually. I liked what I saw out of the team on the outlet passes as mentioned in a previous post. In the B12 Championship game, we throttled Baylor despite their having many more possessions than we had. I'm a big fan of the women's team for sure.

Mjcpr
3/22/2006, 09:45 AM
Traber said something the other day about Kelvin being a better coach than Sherri. I just don't see it. Sherri did more with less than Kelvin ever did.

I don't know about that. Kelvin definitely has his flaws, but he has always been known as a coach that gets every last drop out of the talent he has (until recently). An overachiever, if you will. The Final Four team's best player is an average NBA player, I would THINK (I'm no expert, obviously) that Paris would be equivelent to an NBA lottery choice.

I am NOT saying Sherri is not a good coach, she is, I'm just saying I don't think it's as cut dried as you made it out to be that she's a better coach than Kelvin. Judging him on the very recent past, yes......but not on the whole. Not yet anyway.

Mjcpr
3/22/2006, 09:47 AM
Also, I apologize for my spek comment to '04.

That should have read 'Good post, 04'........not 'Goo post...'. :O

NormanPride
3/22/2006, 11:10 AM
Well, look at Sherri's team this past year compared to this year. What did we gain? A dominant inside presence. And that's been the key for the transformation from first round out to a tough Stanford team to a Sweet 16 favorite as a 2 seed.

Kelvin has not had that kind of opportunity, really. We would be in a similar position this year if we returned almost everyone and got a great point guard to drive the O.

Also, I thought we had all agreed it was our bad defense that killed us? The offense may have looked ugly this year, but it put up points like all the others did, right? What was the ppg stat this year?

Stanley1
3/22/2006, 11:19 AM
So 04, how many boards you gonna post this on? SoonerTimes next? The "secret" board?

Fun.

CtheB
3/22/2006, 11:36 AM
Well, look at Sherri's team this past year compared to this year. What did we gain? A dominant inside presence. And that's been the key for the transformation from first round out to a tough Stanford team to a Sweet 16 favorite as a 2 seed.

Kelvin has not had that kind of opportunity, really. We would be in a similar position this year if we returned almost everyone and got a great point guard to drive the O.

Also, I thought we had all agreed it was our bad defense that killed us? The offense may have looked ugly this year, but it put up points like all the others did, right? What was the ppg stat this year?

Norman, I always truly enjoy your insights, even when we do not agree, but I think one thing that is overlooked is the fact that Sheri got that dominant inside presence, and built the team around it. She knows her talent and puts it in positions to win.

I argue that Kelvin sometimes has a "square peg, round hole" approach to his team. Regardless of the talent, it's expected to fit within his same scheme, i.e. Johnnie Gilbert handling the basketball 25 feet from the goal.

For that, I think Sheri has an edge on Kelvin in that she shows flexibility (easy there pervs) in her approach. Her scheme compliments her talent, rather than fitting the talent into her scheme.

Mjcpr
3/22/2006, 11:44 AM
So 04, how many boards you gonna post this on? SoonerTimes next? The "secret" board?

Fun.

Did you mess up your spek comment too?

ouflak
3/22/2006, 11:45 AM
Well since you guys are stroking each other up so much on this thread, can we come to an agreement as a board for just the next week or two?

Any thread on Women's basketball remains only about women's basketball. I think the ladies have deserved atleast that amount of respect at this point. If anybody absolutely feels the need to post some snide comment about the men's team while reading a thread about the lady's team, they post it here. Agreed?

Wow that sounds like a good idea! http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Stanley1
3/22/2006, 12:01 PM
Did you mess up your spek comment too?

:confused:

NormanPride
3/22/2006, 12:06 PM
Norman, I always truly enjoy your insights, even when we do not agree, but I think one thing that is overlooked is the fact that Sheri got that dominant inside presence, and built the team around it. She knows her talent and puts it in positions to win.

I argue that Kelvin sometimes has a "square peg, round hole" approach to his team. Regardless of the talent, it's expected to fit within his same scheme, i.e. Johnnie Gilbert handling the basketball 25 feet from the goal.

For that, I think Sheri has an edge on Kelvin in that she shows flexibility (easy there pervs) in her approach. Her scheme compliments her talent, rather than fitting the talent into her scheme.

I can see that, definitely. I'm just saying Sampson hasn't had that amazing player, really. I haven't really paid enough attention to the Ladies as I should, so I can't comment on Coach Coale's history in adjusting... I don't know why, but I never caught the games last year, and I tried to... She has seemed more flexible, though.

Stanley1
3/22/2006, 12:12 PM
Not really, she's just had two complete studs that make her look good. Without Dales, and without Paris, Coale has had seasons that more closely resemble Kelvin's.

NormanPride
3/22/2006, 12:16 PM
Not really, she's just had two complete studs that make her look good. Without Dales, and without Paris, Coale has had seasons that more closely resemble Kelvin's.

I'd agree a bit with the Dales team, but this team performs well even when Courtney is on the bench. Yeah, CP3 makes us a crapload better, but it's not like she's the only reason this team is a 2 seed...

okienole3
3/22/2006, 12:17 PM
Not really, she's just had two complete studs that make her look good. Without Dales, and without Paris, Coale has had seasons that more closely resemble Kelvin's.

Yeah, but Coale got the studs and kept them here. That has to count for something.

Newbomb Turk
3/22/2006, 12:21 PM
In the B12 Championship game, we throttled Baylor despite their having many more possessions than we had.

They had more possessions cause we turned the ball over a brazillion times. We throttled them cause they shot like crap.

CtheB
3/22/2006, 12:26 PM
I can see that, definitely. I'm just saying Sampson hasn't had that amazing player, really. I haven't really paid enough attention to the Ladies as I should, so I can't comment on Coach Coale's history in adjusting... I don't know why, but I never caught the games last year, and I tried to... She has seemed more flexible, though.

Norman, an honest question for you, if Kelvin had that amazing player, do you think his scheme would allow that player to take center stage?

Also, good point on the girls, its fairly obvious she has an unbelievable talent in Paris and some other great players, and the talent is the answer to winning.

My fear with Kelvin, and this will be argued, is that we really haven't progressed with the talent. He's never had two draftable NBA guys on a team in his career at OU, and this year's team struggled more than prior versions. Two of the players that have left the program were his only two Parade AA in his tenure. I argue how well he coaches ballyhooed players.

His best teams, the Final Four/Elite Eight teams, had two great players in Price and McGhee, but neither were drafted. Fill it out with Ere, White, and Gilbert/Bookout, all good role players.

I am one that believes if Kelvin stays, he needs to start recruiting his kind of player, not the kid everyone wants. Sure, we won't have any kids hit the NBA, or maybe only 1 every 12 years, but it seems like he is more successful with red chips than blue chips.

NormanPride
3/22/2006, 12:34 PM
Norman, an honest question for you, if Kelvin had that amazing player, do you think his scheme would allow that player to take center stage?

Also, good point on the girls, its fairly obvious she has an unbelievable talent in Paris and some other great players, and the talent is the answer to winning.

My fear with Kelvin, and this will be argued, is that we really haven't progressed with the talent. He's never had two draftable NBA guys on a team in his career at OU, and this year's team struggled more than prior versions. Two of the players that have left the program were his only two Parade AA in his tenure. I argue how well he coaches ballyhooed players.

His best teams, the Final Four/Elite Eight teams, had two great players in Price and McGhee, but neither were drafted. Fill it out with Ere, White, and Gilbert/Bookout, all good role players.

I am one that believes if Kelvin stays, he needs to start recruiting his kind of player, not the kid everyone wants. Sure, we won't have any kids hit the NBA, or maybe only 1 every 12 years, but it seems like he is more successful with red chips than blue chips.

I'm not sure what Sampson would do with a Chris Paul or a Luol Deng... Though his general workhorse/sharing attitude seems to sway me more towards "he'd squander them". But that's unfair to KS, as he's never had that guy.

And the rest, I agree. The recruiting worries me, as I don't know why he "went away" from the guys he knew would work. Godbold is a perfect Sampson player, but Taj and Terrell weren't. Someone mentioned Taj at the 5 rather than the 4, and I think that would have been better. I wonder if it will come out that one of the two was a cancer on this team, and that's why it screwed up so much?

TopDawg
3/22/2006, 12:34 PM
Some of you speak as though flexibility is an inherently good thing.

When John Blake was flexible, he was made a mockery of. Joe Paterno is the anti-flex and it worked out great for him. Why? A wise man once said "It ain't the x's and o's, it's the Jimmys and Joes."

The talent on Sherri Coale's team is relatively MUCH better than the talent on Kelvin Sampson's team. That wasn't the case last year, though, when our women's team went 17-13 (with Coach Coale's flexible coaching style) and it looked like she had failed to capitalize on her 2002 Final Four run.

TopDawg
3/22/2006, 12:36 PM
Norman, an honest question for you, if Kelvin had that amazing player, do you think his scheme would allow that player to take center stage?

Looking at this year, when Michael Neal got hot, our offensive scheme changed quite a bit. Or, at least, he took center stage. Unfortunately, he was the only consistently good shooter we had and teams finally figured out that if they stopped Michael Neal, they could stop us.

Stanley1
3/22/2006, 12:44 PM
Norman, an honest question for you, if Kelvin had that amazing player, do you think his scheme would allow that player to take center stage?

.

He's never had a CP, but he's always had one or two guys that were his "go to guys". Najera got the majority of the shots, Hollis, Brewer, Erdmann, etc.

NormanPride
3/22/2006, 12:45 PM
Some of you speak as though flexibility is an inherently good thing.

When John Blake was flexible, he was made a mockery of. Joe Paterno is the anti-flex and it worked out great for him. Why? A wise man once said "It ain't the x's and o's, it's the Jimmys and Joes."

The talent on Sherri Coale's team is relatively MUCH better than the talent on Kelvin Sampson's team. That wasn't the case last year, though, when our women's team went 17-13 (with Coach Coale's flexible coaching style) and it looked like she had failed to capitalize on her 2002 Final Four run.

Calling Blake flexible is a bit of a misnomer... That's like calling water stretchy.

TopDawg
3/22/2006, 12:47 PM
Calling Blake flexible is a bit of a misnomer... That's like calling water stretchy.

Blake was flexible. But in all the wrong ways. My point was simply that flexibility isn't an inherently good thing. Sometimes being rigid is better. But most of the time, in sports, it depends on the talent.

RacerX
3/22/2006, 02:27 PM
Not really, she's just had two complete studs that make her look good. Without Dales, and without Paris, Coale has had seasons that more closely resemble Kelvin's.
Note to Kelvin, you're responsible for recruiting and retention.:kelvin:

Stanley1
3/22/2006, 02:29 PM
Note to Kelvin, you're responsible for recruiting and retention.:kelvin:


Yeah, b/c there is no luck or chance involved in recruiting at all. :rolleyes:

RacerX
3/22/2006, 02:30 PM
You just can't give a coach a pass on talent, like they have no control over it.

We didn't with Stoops and his crew last year.

Skysooner
3/22/2006, 02:41 PM
They had more possessions cause we turned the ball over a brazillion times. We throttled them cause they shot like crap.

That was my exact point. They shot like crap partly because they were defending Sophia Young so well. They had more possessions because we had 30+ turnovers.


I don't know about that. Kelvin definitely has his flaws, but he has always been known as a coach that gets every last drop out of the talent he has (until recently). An overachiever, if you will. The Final Four team's best player is an average NBA player, I would THINK (I'm no expert, obviously) that Paris would be equivelent to an NBA lottery choice.

I am NOT saying Sherri is not a good coach, she is, I'm just saying I don't think it's as cut dried as you made it out to be that she's a better coach than Kelvin. Judging him on the very recent past, yes......but not on the whole. Not yet anyway.

I know it isn't cut and dried, but the adjustments this year just didn't seem to be there. It could have been a lack of talent at point guard (running off a starting PG will do that for you) or just a lack of basketball IQ. However this year, I didn't see us our team playing as hard as a Kelvin team usually does. Our high screen that used to allow Hollis a quick look at the basket wasn't crisp at all. Our guards were taking bad lines around screens and the big men (besides Kevin) had a hard time catching the entry pass.

Stanley1
3/22/2006, 02:43 PM
You just can't give a coach a pass on talent, like they have no control over it.

We didn't with Stoops and his crew last year.

I'm just saying, you've heard how Paris' ended up at OU right? They hadn't even heard from OU, but one of CP's friends that we were recruiting wanted her to come check out OU. Only then did Sherri even begin recruiting her.

You don't have to have "the best" talent to win, depending on your definition of talent. Stoops won with good, not great talent. Duke basketball wins every year with great basketball players, not great athletic talent. In hoops, its more about how your team meshes. The last few men's teams at OU haven't meshed. Hopefully the new guys will.

My point is, Kelvin has had enough talent since the Final 4 run to be dangerous. We've just had some character issues, and I think for the most part that'll be behind us now. Reynolds and James are probably Kelvin's best two recruits to date. I think he deserves a couple of years to see if he can't take the program up a notch.

C&CDean
3/22/2006, 02:59 PM
There's one other huge difference.

Have you listened to the girl's interviews? Have you listened to the guys?

The girls can speak. English. The guys? Not so much. Courtney Paris' IQ > Everett, Gray, and Neal combined. That might just have something to do with the whole "retention" thing.

CtheB
3/22/2006, 03:03 PM
C&C, you do have a point there.

Stanley1
3/22/2006, 03:26 PM
There's one other huge difference.

Have you listened to the girl's interviews? Have you listened to the guys?

The girls can speak. English. The guys? Not so much. Courtney Paris' IQ > Everett, Gray, and Neal combined. That might just have something to do with the whole "retention" thing.

I wouldn't lump Neal in there.

Also, didn't the men's team have a higher GPA than the women, as well as one of, if not the highest in the conference?

Sooner_Bob
3/22/2006, 03:55 PM
There's one other huge difference.

Have you listened to the girl's interviews? Have you listened to the guys?

The girls can speak. English. The guys? Not so much. Courtney Paris' IQ > Everett, Gray, and Neal combined. That might just have something to do with the whole "retention" thing.



true dat

C&CDean
3/22/2006, 04:01 PM
I wouldn't lump Neal in there.

Also, didn't the men's team have a higher GPA than the women, as well as one of, if not the highest in the conference?

I'd kiss your narrow little Stanley *** in front of the stadium if the men's BB GPA is higher than the girls'. Besides Taylor Griffin (pre-med?), what have they got?

And just because Neal is a 3-point boy (like you claim to be) doesn't make him smart.

OKC-SLC
3/22/2006, 04:12 PM
kelvin's progress since the final four year has been underwhelming.

with the current slope, we'll be losing to manhattan in the first round in two years.

nice post, 04.

TopDawg
3/22/2006, 04:17 PM
kelvin's progress since the final four year has been underwhelming.

with the current slope, we'll be losing to manhattan in the first round in two years.

nice post, 04.

Sherri's progress since the Final Four year had been more underwhelming than Sampson's. Until she landed Courtney Paris, and now all of a sudden she can coach circles around Kelvin.

That's not meant to knock Coach Coale. She's a remarkable coach and her kudos are well deserved.

Rhino
3/22/2006, 04:22 PM
I'd kiss your narrow little Stanley *** in front of the stadium if the men's BB GPA is higher than the girls'. Besides Taylor Griffin (pre-med?), what have they got? I don't think you'll have to kiss Stanley's *** anytime soon, but I could be wrong.

Our men's BB team had two players (Bookout, Carter) on Academic All-Big 12 Men's Basketball First Team (3.20 or better)

Our women's BB team had five players (Higgins, Preston, Rush, Sanchez, Welch) on Academic All-Big 12 Women's Basketball First Team (3.20 or better) and two (Andrews, Moore) on Academic All-Big 12 Women's Basketball First Team (3.00-3.19).

Freshmen and transfers aren't eligible for the team in their first year, so that DQs the Paris twins and Winchester from the girls and Neal, Griffin, Johnson and Walker from the guys. You also had to compete in 60% of the team's contests, so that DQs walk-ons like Sampson and Ott.

Stanley1
3/22/2006, 04:35 PM
but I could be wrong.

You are.



Freshmen and transfers aren't eligible for the team in their first year, so that DQs the Paris twins and Winchester from the girls and Neal, Griffin, Johnson and Walker from the guys. You also had to compete in 60% of the team's contests, so that DQs walk-ons like Sampson and Ott.


Maybe if you put all of these restrictions on there. I'm almost positive I saw the numbers for the entire team a few weeks back and it was the highest team GPA since Kelvin has been at OU. I thought it was higher than the girl's team, but I'm not positive. I'll go try to find the numbers now. I'd love for Dean to have to pucker up.

okienole3
3/22/2006, 06:22 PM
Menís Basketball Sets Classroom Record
Courtesy: SoonerSports.com
Release: 01/12/2006


NORMAN, Okla. Ė The fall semester was a prosperous one in the classroom for members of the University of Oklahoma menís basketball team. The squad posted a 3.14 grade point average on a 4.0 scale, setting a single-semester record since Kelvin Sampson was named head coach in April 1994.

Eight of the 12 student-athletes recorded a GPA of 3.0 or higher. Each student-athlete posted at least a 2.5 GPA.

Sophomore Michael Ott earned a team-high 3.75 GPA and was followed by freshman Taylor Griffin (3.71), freshman Austin Johnson (3.63), senior Kevin Bookout (3.50), junior Nate Carter (3.50), sophomore Kellen Sampson (3.40), sophomore Longar Longar (3.00) and junior Michael Neal (3.00).

ďWe instituted a new attendance policy this year and really emphasized going to study hall and meeting with tutors,Ē said Sampson. ďBesides the kids, the credit for this goes to (associate AD for academic affairs) Dr. Gerald Gurney, (menís basketball academic counselor) C.B. Elder and (director of academic support services) Randy Garibay. Those guys are great with our kids and our kids take it to task.

ďThe keys are going to class, going to study hall and meeting with instructors. Iíve never been associated with a team thatís had this many kids with a GPA of 3.0 or higher. Itís something in which we take pride as a staff, but our kids do, too.Ē

The menís basketball teamís overall GPA is 3.03.

OUís spring semester begins on Tuesday, Jan. 17.


Don't know about the women.

Sooner04
3/22/2006, 06:55 PM
Sherri's progress since the Final Four year had been more underwhelming than Sampson's.
Sherri hasn't missed the Tournament since the Final Four. Kelvin can't say that.

Sherri's won an outright conference championship and two tournament titles since the Final Four. Kelvin split one conference championship and won the tournament once.

Sherri's kept more than one of her high-school recruits on campus past their sophomore seasons. Kelvin has not.

Sherri's steered clear of the NCAA infractions committee. Kelvin has not.

Cam
3/22/2006, 07:56 PM
04's pretty much summed it up for me.

TopDawg
3/22/2006, 09:23 PM
04, if you're going to craft a counter-argument against my point, at least have the decency to use my entire point.

I said:

"Sherri's progress since the Final Four year had been more underwhelming than Sampson's. Until she landed Courtney Paris,"

and then you go throwing around numbers from this year...the year she had Courtney Paris.


Sherri hasn't missed the Tournament since the Final Four. Kelvin can't say that.

True, but it's harder to make it into the men's tourney than the women's and Sampson had as many tourney wins as Coale during that time...despite appearing at one fewer dance.

Additionally, these are the records of each over the past 3 years:

25-8, 20-11, 27-7
17-13, 24-9, 19-13

Which is most underwhelming?


Sherri's won an outright conference championship and two tournament titles since the Final Four. Kelvin split one conference championship and won the tournament once.

Before this year (the criteria I was using)...

Sherri went from 5th to 6th to 7th in the conference. She won one conference tournament.
Kelvin went from 3rd to 7th to 1st in the conference. He won one conference tournament.

Which is most underwhelming?


Sherri's kept more than one of her high-school recruits on campus past their sophomore seasons. Kelvin has not.

Sherri's steered clear of the NCAA infractions committee. Kelvin has not.

I'll grant you those. But name 3 women's coaches that dosen't apply to. Those things are easier to do in WBB than in men's. And if that's ALL she has on Sampson over the previous three years (basketball success-wise), I'd still say her progress was more underwhelming. Would you disagree?

TopDawg
3/22/2006, 09:30 PM
04's pretty much summed it up for me.

I actually agree with a lot of what he said in the 1st post too. I'm thrilled to pieces that the women are where they are and I'm very excited about next year and the following years.

My point is simply that about a year ago, a similar post (about our men headed upward and our women headed down) could've been written. Getting a girl like Courney Paris can change those things. Maybe one of the guys Kelvin has waiting in the wings can help him right his ship.

Cam
3/22/2006, 09:51 PM
I actually agree with a lot of what he said in the 1st post too. I'm thrilled to pieces that the women are where they are and I'm very excited about next year and the following years.

My point is simply that about a year ago, a similar post (about our men headed upward and our women headed down) could've been written. Getting a girl like Courney Paris can change those things. Maybe one of the guys Kelvin has waiting in the wings can help him right his ship.
Don't disagree with you man.

There is one glaring distinction between the two IMO. KS has never gotten a player like Paris (Either one). That is on him and his style and his uncanny ability to coach to his players strengths. The players see that and go elsewhere.

Until I actually see this next class in uniform, I'm not going to even speculate on them. I'm not at all convinced that the NCAA isn't going to hit us with enough sanctions to make one or all of them to go somewhere else.

TopDawg
3/22/2006, 10:04 PM
Yeah. Heck, NOBODY's ever gotten a player like Courtney Paris.

But several of these guys he's got coming in are supposed to be pretty good, not just one of them. Yeah, I'm nervous about it because we'll be putting a lot on their shoulders. But if they are Hollis/Eduardo type guys, I'm confident we'll be back. If they are Drew/DeAngelo type guys, maybe Sampson's at the end of his trail here.

And I don't think it has anything to do with talent or Sampson's offensive coaching philosophy. I think Sampson's biggest coaching weakness is his inability to work with (or maybe tolerate) players with big egos and I think if he leaves because of a lack of success, that weakness will have been his downfall.

Good, talented, blue-chip players can come here and be successful...if they are team players. If they are willing to lay it on the line defensively and share points with other people, they can still put up big numbers and OU will be successful. If they want to help OU make it to the Final Four, we'll probably do it. If they want to help themselves make it to the NBA, we'll probably fizzle again. That's the danger of recruiting highly-rated kids. Some of them have their eyes on something else that the less-highly-touted kids don't.

I'm hopeful that Sampson has realized that and addressed it with the guys coming in this year. I hope he's looked for some leaders and team-first kinda guys and not just the most talented guys.

Cam
3/22/2006, 10:08 PM
Yeah. Heck, NOBODY's ever gotten a player like Courtney Paris.
Very true. But, you can find 2 or 3 players similarly as talented as SDS at quite a few of the top WBB's programs.


But several of these guys he's got coming in are supposed to be pretty good, not just one of them. Yeah, I'm nervous about it because we'll be putting a lot on their shoulders. But if they are Hollis/Eduardo type guys, I'm confident we'll be back. If they are Drew/DeAngelo type guys, maybe Sampson's at the end of his trail here.

And I don't think it has anything to do with talent or Sampson's offensive coaching philosophy. I think Sampson's biggest coaching weakness is his inability to work with (or maybe tolerate) players with big egos and I think if he leaves because of a lack of success, that weakness will have been his downfall.

Good, talented, blue-chip players can come here and be successful...if they are team players. If they are willing to lay it on the line defensively and share points with other people, they can still put up big numbers and OU will be successful. If they want to help OU make it to the Final Four, we'll probably do it. If they want to help themselves make it to the NBA, we'll probably fizzle again. That's the danger of recruiting highly-rated kids. Some of them have their eyes on something else that the less-highly-touted kids don't.

I'm hopeful that Sampson has realized that and addressed it with the guys coming in this year. I hope he's looked for some leaders and team-first kinda guys and not just the most talented guys.
Again, very true.

TopDawg
3/22/2006, 10:15 PM
Very true. But, you can find 2 or 3 players similarly as talented as SDS at quite a few of the top WBB's programs.

Again, very true.

I'm gonna feel dumb when you tell me, but SDS?

And to build off my last comment


I'm hopeful that Sampson has realized that and addressed it with the guys coming in this year. I hope he's looked for some leaders and team-first kinda guys and not just the most talented guys.

I get the feeling that he's started that trend. Griffin has that feel. Neal has that feel. From what limited stuff I've seen, Austin kinda has that feel.

okienole3
3/22/2006, 10:23 PM
SDS=Stacie Dales Schuman

TopDawg
3/22/2006, 10:27 PM
SDS=Stacie Dales Schuman

Ahhh, yes. Thanks.

RacerX
3/22/2006, 10:48 PM
Has anybody mentioned that she's hawt?

oumartin
3/22/2006, 10:53 PM
is she gonna continue to do espn work after she returns to the womens game?

Sooner04
3/22/2006, 11:02 PM
Until she landed Courtney Paris, and now all of a sudden she can coach circles around Kelvin.
But recruiting is part of the job description.

Here's another thing: we're going to start losing scholarships in men's basketball at this rate because of the attrition. The new NCAA standards aren't going to look very favorably at the mass exoduses of 2004 and 2005.

Stoop Dawg
3/22/2006, 11:03 PM
And then you've got the women, who are experiencing what a lot of people around here have known for a LONG time: this state will support a winner.

Yeah, funny how fickle fans can be.


Abandon ship.........

See?

TopDawg
3/22/2006, 11:09 PM
But recruiting is part of the job description.

04, you're smart enough to have understood my point before I repeated it two more times.

Let's go back one year, when our men were moving upward and our women were on the decline. If Coach Coale's recruiting class was enough to reserve judgment on her performance, then maybe we should give Sampson another year as well.

Sooner04
3/22/2006, 11:35 PM
Are you guys looking to challenge for conference championships or national championships? An 11-12 record in the Dance over a coaching career does not lead me to believe our team is geared to success in late March.

okienole3
3/23/2006, 12:43 AM
04, you're smart enough to have understood my point before I repeated it two more times.

Let's go back one year, when our men were moving upward and our women were on the decline. If Coach Coale's recruiting class was enough to reserve judgment on her performance, then maybe we should give Sampson another year as well.

But this isn't year 1 for Sampson.

Stoop Dawg
3/23/2006, 12:54 AM
Are you guys looking to challenge for conference championships or national championships?

It would be awesome if we could finish high in the conference every year (i.e. "contend"), occasionally win it, and go deep in the conference tourny, and occasionally win it too.

It would also be great to finish high in the AP rankings (i.e. "contend") and have an occasional Final Four appearance.

Wait a minute.......

TopDawg
3/23/2006, 11:39 AM
But this isn't year 1 for Sampson.

:confused:

Either you misread what I wrote or you've done a great job of disguising your point. ;)

TopDawg
3/23/2006, 11:40 AM
Are you guys looking to challenge for conference championships or national championships? An 11-12 record in the Dance over a coaching career does not lead me to believe our team is geared to success in late March.

Well yeah, that's a losing record. Fortunately, Sampson's record is 11-11.

CASE CLOSED!

okienole3
3/23/2006, 03:05 PM
:confused:

Either you misread what I wrote or you've done a great job of disguising your point. ;)

Both. ;) I don't think that Coach Coale was quite at the point last year that Sampson is now. Nobody was calling for her head, so the recruiting class wasn't the thing that made people reserve judgment, because there was no judgment to reserve.

I really don't think you can compare the two programs anyway. If you can, then it doesn't look good for Sampson. Look at what Coale has turned the women's program into compared to where it was. The program has grown solid, whereas with Sampson it has remained stagnant.

The big thing to me is the inability to keep players for 4 years, the lack of progress in our big men, and the lack of growth in the program. I could care less about style, etc... A win is a win, but a wins at tourney time are more important than a regular season win. Right or wrong, success at the college level is based on what you so in the tourney.

Stoop Dawg
3/23/2006, 04:48 PM
Look at what Coale has turned the women's program into compared to where it was. The program has grown solid, whereas with Sampson it has remained stagnant.

IMO, the only way for OU men's basketball to "grow" at this point is to become a Duke, UNC, or KU. Clearly that's what some of you are calling for, and I guess that's okay. But I'm fairly certain that you don't just fire your current (and very good) coach, snap your fingers, and become a basketball dynasty. If it were that easy, everyone would do it. And it takes more than money. There are a lot of schools with a lot more money than OU.

But comparing the two programs is rather non-sensical. Of course the women are "on the way up", that's about the only direction they had to go. And of course the men are "on the way down", it's tough get to the Final Four every friggin year.


The big thing to me is the inability to keep players for 4 years, the lack of progress in our big men, and the lack of growth in the program.

Those are valid concerns and one's that I share. If team dissent and off-the-court problems become the norm, then a change is in order. But to "abandon ship" after one or two "down" years shows a real lack of support for our team. I also think it's telling that our "down" years still involve trips to the NCAA tourny.

Expectations are rising. Fans are no longer satisfied with simply winning 20 games or making the NCAA tourny. I don't think that's a bad thing, but let's not throw the guy who got us here "under the bus". ;)

NormanPride
3/23/2006, 04:58 PM
IMO, the only way for OU men's basketball to "grow" at this point is to become a Duke, UNC, or KU. Clearly that's what some of you are calling for, and I guess that's okay. But I'm fairly certain that you don't just fire your current (and very good) coach, snap your fingers, and become a basketball dynasty. If it were that easy, everyone would do it. And it takes more than money. There are a lot of schools with a lot more money than OU.

But comparing the two programs is rather non-sensical. Of course the women are "on the way up", that's about the only direction they had to go. And of course the men are "on the way down", it's tough get to the Final Four every friggin year.



Those are valid concerns and one's that I share. If team dissent and off-the-court problems become the norm, then a change is in order. But to "abandon ship" after one or two "down" years shows a real lack of support for our team. I also think it's telling that our "down" years still involve trips to the NCAA tourny.

Expectations are rising. Fans are no longer satisfied with simply winning 20 games or making the NCAA tourny. I don't think that's a bad thing, but let's not throw the guy who got us here "under the bus". ;)

Your cool-headedness and reason is not welcome here. Take your sanity elsewhere!

Sooner04
3/23/2006, 05:48 PM
Well yeah, that's a losing record. Fortunately, Sampson's record is 11-11.
He was 0-1 in the Tournament at Washington State. That's why I stated his career record in the Dance was 11-12.

Sooner04
3/23/2006, 05:48 PM
It would also be great to finish high in the AP rankings
It would, but two top-ten finishes in 12 seasons isn't quite what I'm looking for.

okienole3
3/23/2006, 05:57 PM
IMO, the only way for OU men's basketball to "grow" at this point is to become a Duke, UNC, or KU. Clearly that's what some of you are calling for, and I guess that's okay. But I'm fairly certain that you don't just fire your current (and very good) coach, snap your fingers, and become a basketball dynasty. If it were that easy, everyone would do it. And it takes more than money. There are a lot of schools with a lot more money than OU.



How about maybe a Michigan State or an Illinois?

Stoop Dawg
3/23/2006, 06:09 PM
It would, but two top-ten finishes in 12 seasons isn't quite what I'm looking for.

How about 2 top-five finishes in the last 5 seasons?

Nevermind, we're on the way DOWN. I forgot.

Stoop Dawg
3/23/2006, 06:25 PM
How about maybe a Michigan State or an Illinois?

You mean the unranked Michigan State that lost in the first round or the Illinois that lost in the second? First and second round losses are evidently unacceptable around here.

Seriously, I didn't completely miss your point. Both of those schools probably have better programs than we do. But don't miss my point either. Even very good programs have "down" years. We're only 3 years out from a Final Four. And while those 3 years have been disappointing - and we're definitely itching for something better - I just don't think it time for a change ..... yet. Unless, of course, he's unhappy. Unhappy = un-motivated = no success.

Sooner04
3/23/2006, 06:49 PM
How about 2 top-five finishes in the last 5 seasons?

Nevermind, we're on the way DOWN. I forgot.
So you're saying our program is on footing equivalent to our position following the 2003 season?

Stoop Dawg
3/23/2006, 08:24 PM
So you're saying our program is on footing equivalent to our position following the 2003 season?

I'm saying that my vision extends beyond 3-5 years.

I'm also saying that given our position at the end of the 2003 season, it would have been difficult to sustain - let alone "grow".

I'm curious, do you have a coach in mind that's going to win a NC at OU every 3 years? If you do, I'm all for tossing Kelvin out on his *** and hiring him.

Sooner24
3/23/2006, 09:41 PM
04, if you're going to craft a counter-argument against my point, at least have the decency to use my entire point.

I said:

"Sherri's progress since the Final Four year had been more underwhelming than Sampson's. Until she landed Courtney Paris,"

and then you go throwing around numbers from this year...the year she had Courtney Paris.



True, but it's harder to make it into the men's tourney than the women's and Sampson had as many tourney wins as Coale during that time...despite appearing at one fewer dance.

Additionally, these are the records of each over the past 3 years:

25-8, 20-11, 27-7
17-13, 24-9, 19-13

Which is most underwhelming?



Before this year (the criteria I was using)...

Sherri went from 5th to 6th to 7th in the conference. She won one conference tournament.
Kelvin went from 3rd to 7th to 1st in the conference. He won one conference tournament.

Which is most underwhelming?



I'll grant you those. But name 3 women's coaches that dosen't apply to. Those things are easier to do in WBB than in men's. And if that's ALL she has on Sampson over the previous three years (basketball success-wise), I'd still say her progress was more underwhelming. Would you disagree?


The cell phone bill for her and her staff was a lot lower then Kelvin's too. :rolleyes:

TopDawg
3/23/2006, 09:44 PM
The cell phone bill for her and her staff was a lot lower the Kelvin's too. :rolleyes:

She's better looking too...but that doesn't change her record.

TopDawg
3/23/2006, 09:47 PM
He was 0-1 in the Tournament at Washington State. That's why I stated his career record in the Dance was 11-12.

BAH! Fine. :O

Although getting Wazzu to the dance should probably be miraculous enough to wipe out the loss that ensued.

Cam
3/23/2006, 09:47 PM
I'm saying that my vision extends beyond 3-5 years.
I'm looking at 12 years.


I'm curious, do you have a coach in mind that's going to win a NC at OU every 3 years? If you do, I'm all for tossing Kelvin out on his *** and hiring him.
A NC every 3 years? That's not over the top at all. :rolleyes:

How bout a coach who wins more than 1/2 of a regular season conference crown every 12 years? Is that really too much to ask for?

TopDawg
3/23/2006, 09:48 PM
So you're saying our program is on footing equivalent to our position following the 2003 season?

Is our football program on the way down?

Newbomb Turk
3/23/2006, 09:49 PM
DIE THREAD !11!!!111

TopDawg
3/23/2006, 09:51 PM
How bout a coach who wins more than 1/2 of a regular season conference crown every 12 years? Is that really too much to ask for?

Again, if that was all Sampson had achieved during his time here, I'd've been calling for someone else long ago.

Cam
3/23/2006, 10:18 PM
Again, if that was all Sampson had achieved during his time here, I'd've been calling for someone else long ago.
We each have our opinion. We'll just continue to agree to disagree.

CtheB
3/23/2006, 10:27 PM
DIE THREAD !11!!!111

Not until it hits 100 Turk.

okienole3
3/23/2006, 10:29 PM
Saying that we ("Kelvin Bashers") expect a NC every three years is a total exagerration and you know it. I don't think it is too much to expect a team to get past the first weekend of the tournament maybe one out of three years after going to the Final 4 and Elite Eight the previous two seasons. Moreover, it would be nice to have more than one member of the recruiting classes parlayed off those seasons to stay for all four years, hell to stay more than two years.

Newbomb Turk
3/23/2006, 10:30 PM
Not until it hits 100 Turk.

one more closer to 100! :)

CtheB
3/23/2006, 10:37 PM
one more closer to 100! :)

The Mountainqueers don't look so good when you play defense.

Just noticed that.

98!

CtheB
3/23/2006, 10:39 PM
Saying that we ("Kelvin Bashers") expect a NC every three years is a total exagerration and you know it. I don't think it is too much to expect a team to get past the first weekend of the tournament maybe one out of three years after going to the Final 4 and Elite Eight the previous two seasons. Moreover, it would be nice to have more than one member of the recruiting classes parlayed off those seasons to stay for all four years, hell to stay more than two years.

So, what you are saying is, if Oklahoma under Kelvin Sampson survives the horrific event called the Subregional, it is the exception rather than the norm?

99!

Stoop Dawg
3/23/2006, 10:40 PM
A NC every 3 years? That's not over the top at all. :rolleyes:

A Final Four 3 years ago is obviously not good enough. What is?

:rolleyes:

CtheB
3/23/2006, 10:40 PM
If Taj Gray drops out of school this semester, is it possible that we could lose yet another scholly because of our anemic APR rating?

Is there another Sampson available to fill the empty seat?

Stoop Dawg
3/23/2006, 10:43 PM
Is our football program on the way down?

Harrumph!

Stoop Dawg
3/23/2006, 10:48 PM
Saying that we ("Kelvin Bashers") expect a NC every three years is a total exagerration and you know it. I don't think it is too much to expect a team to get past the first weekend of the tournament maybe one out of three years after going to the Final 4 and Elite Eight the previous two seasons. Moreover, it would be nice to have more than one member of the recruiting classes parlayed off those seasons to stay for all four years, hell to stay more than two years.

Of course it's a gross exagerration. I'm just trying to find out what is considered "acceptable" performance for a coach at OU.

Name the teams that went to the Elite Eight and the Final Four back to back - ever. You're going to come up with names like Duke and UNC.

Bottom line - I think your standards are too high. But that's just my opinion.

Sooner24
3/23/2006, 11:41 PM
Of course it's a gross exagerration. I'm just trying to find out what is considered "acceptable" performance for a coach at OU.

Name the teams that went to the Elite Eight and the Final Four back to back - ever. You're going to come up with names like Duke and UNC.

Bottom line - I think your standards are too high. But that's just my opinion.


If you think his standards are too high it might be because he is reaching for the stars and you are hitting your head on the ceiling.

Sooner04
3/23/2006, 11:47 PM
Is our football program on the way down?
Nah. Stoops has followed his NC with two more conference championships and three more BCS bowl appearances. If we have three more four loss seasons then Stoops might be experiencing the Switzer run of '81-83

Sampson followed his FF four years ago with an Elite 8 run buoyed by the pod system and 1/2 of a conference championship. Six years after Billy took us to the NC game he was gone.

Next year will be five years after the FF for Kelvin.....

Ardmore_Sooner
3/23/2006, 11:50 PM
If you think his standards are too high it might be because he is reaching for the stars and you are hitting your head on the ceiling.

Are you forgetting, twenty win seasons are the stars!:rolleyes:

TopDawg
3/24/2006, 12:11 AM
We each have our opinion. We'll just continue to agree to disagree.

That's fine. I can understand and appreciate your stance.

Until you go and say something like "I'm looking at 12 years and the only thing Sampson has done in 12 years is win half a championship." That only serves to weaken your argument because it makes it appear as though you're so anti-Sampson that you won't even acknowledge his Final Four and Elite Eight runs or his 3 conf. tourney championships.

TopDawg
3/24/2006, 12:12 AM
Nah. Stoops has followed his NC with two more conference championships and three more BCS bowl appearances. If we have three more four loss seasons then Stoops might be experiencing the Switzer run of '81-83


So you're saying our program is on footing equivalent to our position following the 2003 season?

Sooner04
3/24/2006, 12:19 AM
So you're saying our program is on footing equivalent to our position following the 2003 season?
Very, very close. Much closer than our BBall team is.

TopDawg
3/24/2006, 12:21 AM
Sampson followed his FF four years ago with an Elite 8 run buoyed by the pod system and 1/2 of a conference championship. Six years after Billy took us to the NC game he was gone.

Next year will be five years after the FF for Kelvin.....

Cam's gonna be mad that you brought Tubbs into this. ;)

Look, I'm on about that same timeline with Sampson. I'm not ready to get rid of him now, but if things don't improve in two more years, I think it'll be time.

However, it should be noted that the best tourney appearance Tubbs had in his 6 years after the NC game was a Sweet 16 loss (Kelvin made the Elite 8, losing to the eventual champ), and Tubbs finished higher than 5th in the conference only once in his last 4 years (2nd in '92) while Sampson has finished lower than 3rd only once in his last 4 years (in a bigger conference).

Sooner24
3/24/2006, 12:24 AM
That's fine. I can understand and appreciate your stance.

Until you go and say something like "I'm looking at 12 years and the only thing Sampson has done in 12 years is win half a championship." That only serves to weaken your argument because it makes it appear as though you're so anti-Sampson that you won't even acknowledge his Final Four and Elite Eight runs or his 3 conf. tourney championships.


What serves to weaken your argument is it appears you're so pro-Sampson that you won't even acknowledge his many failings. You make Kelvin out to be the second coming of John Wooden.

TopDawg
3/24/2006, 12:25 AM
Very, very close. Much closer than our BBall team is.

2002-03 Final Rankings

OU FB - 5
OU MBB - 3


2005-06 Final Rankings

OU FB - 22
OU MBB - 24 (as of last poll)

TopDawg
3/24/2006, 12:25 AM
You make Kelvin out to be the second coming of John Wooden.

Show me how I've done that.

Sooner24
3/24/2006, 12:31 AM
Ok maybe the second coming of Don Haskins. :D

Sooner24
3/24/2006, 12:40 AM
One of the things that will determine Kelvin’s fate is going to be the faltering attendance next year. Usually when you have as many fans calling talk radio and posting on message boards that they are ready for a change, then change is getting near.

TopDawg
3/24/2006, 12:44 AM
Ok maybe the second coming of Don Haskins. :D

heh...

Look, I understand that Sampson has some shortcomings. I've even detailed what I think his weaknesses are in this thread or another one on this board. I don't try to hide the fact that he has weaknesses and that he has left us disappointed multiple times in the tournament.

I just take issue with the statement that all he's done during his time here is win 1/2 a conference championship. Looking at his 12-year career, he doesn't have a long laundry list of accomplishments...but if you look at the most recent part of his career (and I don't understand why we'd put as much emphasis on his first 6 years as his last 6 years...especially when we so often try to convince Texans to ignore our football program before Bud) he's put together a pretty good resume.

And I'll refer to my response earlier to 04's "6 years later" scenario with Tubbs where I stated that I'm kinda in a position where I feel like Sampson has done enough over the past 6 years of his career to deserve at least another year or two to get the team performing at the level we want it. Maybe I'll change my mind if something comes up with the NCAA sanctions, but I'm not in any rush to judgment on that situation.

Basically it comes down to this for me, it's not like I'm satisfied with "only" 20-win seasons, but it's also not like that's all Sampson's given us over the past 6 years. He's failed to give us anything less, and he's also given us a Final Four run, an Elite Eight run, a conference championship and 3 tournament titles.

Sooner24
3/24/2006, 12:47 AM
heh...

Look, I understand that Sampson has some shortcomings. I've even detailed what I think his weaknesses are in this thread or another one on this board. I don't try to hide the fact that he has weaknesses and that he has left us disappointed multiple times in the tournament.

I just take issue with the statement that all he's done during his time here is win 1/2 a conference championship. Looking at his 12-year career, he doesn't have a long laundry list of accomplishments...but if you look at the most recent part of his career (and I don't understand why we'd put as much emphasis on his first 6 years as his last 6 years...especially when we so often try to convince Texans to ignore our football program before Bud) he's put together a pretty good resume.

And I'll refer to my response earlier to 04's "6 years later" scenario with Tubbs where I stated that I'm kinda in a position where I feel like Sampson has done enough over the past 6 years of his career to deserve at least another year or two to get the team performing at the level we want it. Maybe I'll change my mind if something comes up with the NCAA sanctions, but I'm not in any rush to judgment on that situation.

Basically it comes down to this for me, it's not like I'm satisfied with "only" 20-win seasons, but it's also not like that's all Sampson's given us over the past 6 years. He's failed to give us anything less, and he's also given us a Final Four run, an Elite Eight run, a conference championship and 3 tournament titles.

Fair enough.

For the record I like Sampson and hope things change but I don't see it happening.

TopDawg
3/24/2006, 12:51 AM
And, getting back to the original topic...the men's and women's programs were headed in exact opposite directions last year. Things looked great for the men and nobody really cared about the women. Courtney Paris changed all that in a flash.

04 is right about the state of the two programs right now (headed in different directions) but it's not a safe assumption that they'll both continue in those directions. Sampson has some young, fresh, talented kids coming in and there's a good chance they'll help him get this thing turned back around. I'm certain that it might take him a while to catch up to Sherri because she's full-steam ahead at this point and he'll have to turn it around, but I'm okay with Sampson following Coale to down the road she's travelling.

TopDawg
3/24/2006, 12:52 AM
Fair enough.

For the record I like Sampson and hope things change but I don't see it happening.

He def. has the deck stacked against him at this point. But, in my opinion, this situation is somewhat similar to the one he faced in 1999.

MojoRisen
3/24/2006, 01:19 AM
Kelvin has a good winning percentage- made two really solid runs in the tourney. 75% of the 12 years he has coached that his style not only wasn't exciting- we knew that we had no real chance to win it all- even in the final 4 loosing to Indiana- we were either 4-or 11 in the country- certainly we were not really close to the tittle with the talent gap in that final 4.

Tourney record- is not very good- 20 wins is good- but slightly above avg-

Would you rather have someone going for Top in the class- or someone who wants to be 3.0 student with a bell curve.

usmc-sooner
3/24/2006, 01:33 AM
Look at Texas

Texas has no history and they are starting to dominate, we have some history and where are we?

I'm not calling for heads but what is the difference.

Cam
3/24/2006, 05:07 AM
Until you go and say something like "I'm looking at 12 years and the only thing Sampson has done in 12 years is win half a championship." That only serves to weaken your argument because it makes it appear as though you're so anti-Sampson that you won't even acknowledge his Final Four and Elite Eight runs or his 3 conf. tourney championships.
I was addressing the 3 NC's in one season, nothing more, nothing less.

Harry Beanbag
3/24/2006, 09:22 AM
Look at Texas

Texas has no history and they are starting to dominate, we have some history and where are we?

I'm not calling for heads but what is the difference.


A coach who can recruit outstanding players, develop those players, retain those players, and thinks that offense and defense aren't mutually exclusive.

Sooner04
3/24/2006, 09:31 AM
Sampson has some young, fresh, talented kids coming in and there's a good chance they'll help him get this thing turned back around.
What have you seen from any of his last four high school recruiting classes to have faith in that assumption?

TopDawg
3/24/2006, 10:22 AM
What have you seen from any of his last four high school recruiting classes to have faith in that assumption?

From what I've seen of their personalities, I like the Griffin/Johnson crew more than the Lavender/McKenzie crew. I'm hopeful that maybe that means he's altered his recruiting strategy.

Harry Beanbag
3/24/2006, 10:27 AM
04 and TopDawg's avatars crack me up while reading these threads.

Stoop Dawg
3/24/2006, 10:34 AM
I was addressing the 3 NC's in one season, nothing more, nothing less.

I guess the fact that my exagerration was intended to offset the exaggerations of some others was not obvious. I'll try to be more clear in the future.

And for the record, 3 NC's in one season is impossible, even for Duke. ;)

Stoop Dawg
3/24/2006, 10:35 AM
If you think his standards are too high it might be because he is reaching for the stars and you are hitting your head on the ceiling.

So what are the "acceptable" standards for a coach at OU?

TopDawg
3/24/2006, 10:40 AM
04 and TopDawg's avatars crack me up while reading these threads.

heh...ya know, several months ago I decided to get a B&W Sampson avatar for one and only one reason: to be the anti-04. In fact, I didn't have a photo-editing program at the time, so I got one of our mutual friends to use the Tubbs photo as a guide for what the Sampson photo should look like.

The way these discussions have gone lately, I think some have taken it as an indication of my predisposition towards the coaches.

Stoop Dawg
3/24/2006, 10:40 AM
Look, I'm on about that same timeline with Sampson. I'm not ready to get rid of him now, but if things don't improve in two more years, I think it'll be time.



What serves to weaken your argument is it appears you're so pro-Sampson that you won't even acknowledge his many failings. You make Kelvin out to be the second coming of John Wooden.

Classic.

TD, why do people refuse to read your posts? I bet it's frustrating.

GDC
3/24/2006, 10:59 AM
04 and TopDawg's avatars crack me up while reading these threads.

Somebody needs a Dave Bliss avatar too.

okienole3
3/24/2006, 11:27 AM
From what I've seen of their personalities, I like the Griffin/Johnson crew more than the Lavender/McKenzie crew. I'm hopeful that maybe that means he's altered his recruiting strategy.

Hindsight is........

Sooner04
3/24/2006, 12:43 PM
From what I've seen of their personalities, I like the Griffin/Johnson crew more than the Lavender/McKenzie crew. I'm hopeful that maybe that means he's altered his recruiting strategy.
And his track record with McDonalds All-Americans does not spook you in the least? We've had two since he's been here.

Neither has stepped on the floor here as juniors.

TopDawg
3/24/2006, 01:10 PM
And his track record with McDonalds All-Americans does not spook you in the least? We've had two since he's been here.

Neither has stepped on the floor here as juniors.

It spooks me a little. But this most recent freshman class looks different to me than freshman classes of the recent past. I'm hoping that's a sign that Kelvin's learned his lesson and is putting more emphasis on personality than in the past where maybe talent was the trump card. Some of the stuff floating around about these recruits spooks me a little too, but I'm at least going to give him a chance to get them in the program and see what he can do.

PrairiePrince
3/24/2006, 01:18 PM
I agree more than 100% with this post. And the post about the "smoke on the Titanic coming from Terrell's cabin" absolutely cracked me up. I am a new poster here, btw - joining at the behest of my buddy "the VIIIth", who raved to me about what a great board this is. I am a longtime poster on a couple of other boards as well (one public, one private - and under the same username on the private board), but I figure there's nothing wrong with expanding your horizons - right?

I hate for my first post to be in support of what some may perceive as "negativity", but after this past season I have simply seen enough of "Kelvinball", and honestly feel that it may be in everyone's best interests (OU's and Kelvins), for us to just cut our losses and go in a different direction (coaching-wise). Sometimes, even though he may have had a modicum of success, a coach and a program can begin to stagnate... even regress - and I honestly feel we've reached that point with Kelvin and the basketball program here at OU. I believe the interests of all, would be best served by Kelvin moving on to seek "other opportunities". While he can still do it under is own power... if you get my drift.

Dio
3/24/2006, 01:51 PM
.

I'll talk to ya later, don't want to hear it again tonight. ;)

Harry Beanbag
3/24/2006, 02:44 PM
It spooks me a little. But this most recent freshman class looks different to me than freshman classes of the recent past. I'm hoping that's a sign that Kelvin's learned his lesson and is putting more emphasis on personality than in the past where maybe talent was the trump card.


Like Keith Clark?

TopDawg
3/24/2006, 02:50 PM
Like Keith Clark?

Maybe you stopped reading where you stopped quoting. If so, you missed the rest of my post where I said:


Some of the stuff floating around about these recruits spooks me a little too, but I'm at least going to give him a chance to get them in the program and see what he can do.

Harry Beanbag
3/24/2006, 03:01 PM
Maybe you stopped reading where you stopped quoting. If so, you missed the rest of my post where I said:


I read it, but I was just wondering how you came to the conclusion that maybe Sampson has changed. There are way more questions about Clark than I ever heard about Lavender and Foust before they got to Norman.

soonervegas
3/24/2006, 03:59 PM
Somebody needs a Dave Bliss avatar too.

I won't do Dave Bliss....but hopefully this is close enough.

MojoRisen
3/24/2006, 04:07 PM
Kelvin is not a worker bee that we have to have- making sugestions that Kelvin learned his lesson- is admitting he did not know wtf he was doing to begin with- he has 20+ years of Coaching and Recruiting under his belt- there are really no excuses with the past classes too me- He always knew he should be getting personalities- if he didn't we are acting like he is an employee with good potential to get better- not the CEO of Oklahoma Basketball.

TopDawg
3/24/2006, 04:14 PM
I read it, but I was just wondering how you came to the conclusion that maybe Sampson has changed. There are way more questions about Clark than I ever heard about Lavender and Foust before they got to Norman.

I was kinda thinking that maybe Clark was the wild card. We, or at least I, haven't heard these things about the other guys in the class, so I thought maybe Clark is the guy Sampson's taking a chance on. It could be one of those "recruit-'em-out-of-high-school-send-'em-to-a-JUCO-and-sign-them-in-two-years" kinda things.

Stoop Dawg
3/24/2006, 04:23 PM
Kelvin is not a worker bee that we have to have

What is considered "acceptable performance" for the OU basketball coach?

Sorry if I sound like a broken record but nobody seems to want to answer. You guys seem pretty sure that Kelvin's performance is not acceptable, but do you really even know what you expect?

TopDawg
3/24/2006, 04:35 PM
You make Kelvin out to be the second coming of John Wooden.

Since you mentioned the great Coach Wooden, I just thought it was worth mentioning that his first twelve years at UCLA were not littered with great successes. Granted, it was a different time and a different place, but I just thought I'd throw this out there.

1948-49 - 22-7
1949-50 - 24-7
1950-51 - 19-10
1951-52 - 19-12
1952-53 - 16-8
1953-54 - 18-7
1954-55 - 21-5
1955-56 - 22-6
1956-57 - 22-4
1957-58 - 16-10
1958-59 - 16-9
1959-60 - 14-12

Wooden's 1st 12 years
229-97 (.702)
0 Final Fours

Sampson's 1st 12 years
279-108 (.721)
1 Final Four

Wooden wouldn't reach his first Final Four until his 14th year, and wouldn't win it all until his 16th. Of course, we all know what happened after that.

I can't find any evidence of it, but I'm sure the folks calling for Wooden's head after 12 years without a Final Four, were a bit sheepish 10 years later. ;)

Harry Beanbag
3/24/2006, 04:47 PM
I was kinda thinking that maybe Clark was the wild card. We, or at least I, haven't heard these things about the other guys in the class, so I thought maybe Clark is the guy Sampson's taking a chance on. It could be one of those "recruit-'em-out-of-high-school-send-'em-to-a-JUCO-and-sign-them-in-two-years" kinda things.


I've heard great things about Reynolds, but really nothing about James or Crocker. As far as Clark goes, academics don't seem to be the only baggage that he comes with. It's all message board hearsay though, I don't have any personal knowledge of any of these kids.

I've said before, I really hope Sampson reverses the direction that the program seems to be headed in. I like him and hope he succeeds.

MojoRisen
3/24/2006, 04:54 PM
What is considered "acceptable performance" for the OU basketball coach?

Sorry if I sound like a broken record but nobody seems to want to answer. You guys seem pretty sure that Kelvin's performance is not acceptable, but do you really even know what you expect?


All I said is don't make excuses for the guy- he is perfectly capable of being responsible for his actions- When we say- well he learned his lesson on recruiting- after 20 years in the business- I think it is not acceptable. He didn't retain his players....

Now- I am fine if Kelvin stays- I am not going to bust on his percentages. My expectations are that we feel like we are fielding a team that can make deep runs in the Tourney- hey if we get knocked off by a great team in the 2nd round- fine- but I want to feel like we have a chance to beat anyone.

Not know for sure that we are going to get waxed and it is a matter of time because we are really a top 40 team- overratted to 24.

I also would like for Kelvin to make more adjustments in game- and get up and down the court better- personal to do it etc etc. I do not see adjustments from Kelvin - almost like he conceded that we were not going to do anything.

Is that clear from my perspective!

TopDawg
3/24/2006, 05:00 PM
When we say- well he learned his lesson on recruiting- after 20 years in the business- I think it is not acceptable. He didn't retain his players....

Yeah, he's been in the biz for 20 years. But things changed. He had success he'd never had before. That lead to him having a shot at recruits that he never had a shot at before. I can understand how his eyes might've gotten a little big and he may've set aside the things that he would normally look for in a recruit (much like what appears to have happened to Stoops after the NC).

I'm not going to continue making excuses in this regard, but I can't help but think that it's more than just coincidence that Sampson's retention problems came mostly with those guys who would've been impacted by the Final Four run.

soonervegas
3/24/2006, 05:02 PM
What is considered "acceptable performance" for the OU basketball coach?

Sorry if I sound like a broken record but nobody seems to want to answer. You guys seem pretty sure that Kelvin's performance is not acceptable, but do you really even know what you expect?

I'll answer it. I think a Sweet 16 approximately 50% of the time. So if you take a 10 yr period.....I would like to make it 4-5 times. If we made it to the Sweet 16 4-5 times every 10 years I would be happy as a pig in slop.

MojoRisen
3/24/2006, 05:03 PM
I understand that- but I think that it is a system problem not a problem with recruits per se- at least a 85% system problem.

We want top notch players- they need to get out- and get up and down the floor- no half court slow down stuff- not here.

TopDawg
3/24/2006, 05:25 PM
I understand that- but I think that it is a system problem not a problem with recruits per se- at least a 85% system problem.

We want top notch players- they need to get out- and get up and down the floor- no half court slow down stuff- not here.

But I don't understand why people who don't want to be part of Sampson's system would come to OU. Maybe he's promising them something he can't deliver and, if so, that will surely eventually be his downfall.

But it's not like his "system" is inherently low-scoring. In 2002 we averaged 79 points per game (and 80 in 1996). That's a rounded number, so I'm not sure exactly what our average was, but a 79 PPG average would've been good for 19th place in this year's team scoring standings.

But his system is predicated on defense and it requires that we play with as much intensity on that end as on the other. This team--and several of his recent recruits--wanted nothing to do with that. Tell me again why you came to OU?

OUstud
3/24/2006, 05:32 PM
And I don't mind a defensive-based team. I don't mind not having a run and gun team. I don't even mind a halfcourt offense, if we can develop it a lot more and get shots off routinely before there's 2 seconds on the shot clock and we're still calling a play on the perimeter.

MojoRisen
3/24/2006, 05:34 PM
We should be able to play defense- Athletes play better defense full court trapping or 3/4 court or half court or zone.

We need to be able to run and play defense- we also need to be disciplined to slow it down.

Not one dimentional slow down- and week asss defense.

Stoop Dawg
3/24/2006, 05:42 PM
My expectations are that we feel like we are feilding a team that can make deep runs in the Tourney- hey if we get knocked off by a great team in the 2nd round- fine- but I want to feel like we have a chance to beat anyone.

Not know for sure that we are going to get waxed and it is a matter of time because we are really a top 40 team- overratted to 24.


It's going to be difficult to gauge a coaches progress based on YOUR feelings. "Hey, new coach, you'll get a big bonus at the end of the year if MojoRisen FEELS like you might make a deep tourny run. Sound good?"


I also would like for Kelvin to make more adjustments in game- and get up and down the court better- personal to do it etc etc. I do not see adjustments from Kelvin - almost like he conceded that we were not going to do anything.

Well, that's a little more constructive. But it's still not a very good measuring stick. How do you measure "more adjustments" and "get up and down the court better"?

And let's be real, while YOU may want to see more "adjustments" and "personnel changes" what most people really want are wins. Hey, I want wins too! My real question is "how many wins is enough?"


Is that clear from my perspective!

Actually, not really. :(

MojoRisen
3/24/2006, 05:47 PM
Stoodawg,

Kelvin gets out adjusted regulary in big tourney games,

Sorry is that clear? He doesn't adjust from his game plan well-

Kelvin came from washington St. so what.

Stoop Dawg
3/24/2006, 05:58 PM
MoRisn,

I guess agre dont* OKey, no prolm

MojoRisen
3/24/2006, 06:00 PM
Should we put it too a vote again?

Peace out bro!

Cam
3/24/2006, 08:01 PM
I'll answer it. I think a Sweet 16 approximately 50% of the time. So if you take a 10 yr period.....I would like to make it 4-5 times. If we made it to the Sweet 16 4-5 times every 10 years I would be happy as a pig in slop.
Add to that an out right Big 12 Championship every few years.

I'd also like to see an offense other than the 4 statues across the lane and the PG scrambling for a shot with the shot clock running down. This is a system problem, not a player problem.

Stanley1
3/24/2006, 08:08 PM
Since you mentioned the great Coach Wooden, I just thought it was worth mentioning that his first twelve years at UCLA were not littered with great successes. Granted, it was a different time and a different place, but I just thought I'd throw this out there.

1948-49 - 22-7
1949-50 - 24-7
1950-51 - 19-10
1951-52 - 19-12
1952-53 - 16-8
1953-54 - 18-7
1954-55 - 21-5
1955-56 - 22-6
1956-57 - 22-4
1957-58 - 16-10
1958-59 - 16-9
1959-60 - 14-12

Wooden's 1st 12 years
229-97 (.702)
0 Final Fours

Sampson's 1st 12 years
279-108 (.721)
1 Final Four

Wooden wouldn't reach his first Final Four until his 14th year, and wouldn't win it all until his 16th. Of course, we all know what happened after that.

I can't find any evidence of it, but I'm sure the folks calling for Wooden's head after 12 years without a Final Four, were a bit sheepish 10 years later. ;)

What, nobody wanted to debate this?

Cam
3/24/2006, 08:26 PM
What, nobody wanted to debate this?
Why would anybody want to debate programs from 50 years ago?

There is absolutely zero comparison between Wooden and Sampson, none.

Stanley1
3/24/2006, 08:32 PM
Why would anybody want to debate programs from 50 years ago?

There is absolutely zero comparison between Wooden and Sampson, none.

Actually, the above says there is. But ignore the facts, focus on your "opinion". :rolleyes:

Cam
3/24/2006, 08:40 PM
1) You want to compare Sampson to possibly the greatest college basketball coach of all time?

2) It'd be like comparing one of Stoops' teams to one of Wilinson's. You just can't do it. Hell, it's hard to compare teams with a 15-20 year gap and you want to do it with 50?

That is what I would call a reach.

Stanley1
3/24/2006, 08:43 PM
Not comparing teams, comparing coaching. It goes to show that a coach can be solid but not great, and then explode.

Wooden isn't the only example of this. Boheim, the UCONN coach, Williams at Maryland, took Roy Williams a while, etc.

Cam
3/24/2006, 09:17 PM
If you want to compare the two, bring the whole package.

* What was the program like before he got there?
* What were the expectations for UCLA basketball at the time?
* Compare media coverage in the two eras. Coaches can't fart without a media person around today.

These are huge factors in the way that fans perceive a program.

Did Wooden explode? Sure as hell did. Was the game, the competition, the media coverage anything like it is today? Not even close.

Apples and oranges IMO.


Not comparing teams, comparing coaching. It goes to show that a coach can be solid but not great, and then explode.

Wooden isn't the only example of this. Boheim, the UCONN coach, Williams at Maryland, took Roy Williams a while, etc.
Boeheim & Williams are coaching at their alma matters. That alone buys you time. Hell, Boeheim has been at Syracuse since 1962. Just slightly different scenario than Kelvin. Williams won a NC and has been to two FF's. Even with that, I've got some friends that are ready to throw him to the wolves, and he's par of the family. Whoever follows Williams is screwed in a big way. They will never live up to what he's done.

You can take Roy Williams off of that list as well. Only one season of not making the dance and he's NEVER lost in the first round.

Year W L Pct. Postseason
1988-89 19 12 .613 ----
1989-90 30 5 .857 NCAA Tournament, Second Round
1990-91 27 8 .771 NCAA Final Four, Second Place
1991-92 27 5 .844 NCAA Tournament, Second Round
1992-93 29 7 .806 NCAA Final Four
1993-94 27 8 .771 NCAA Tournament, Sweet 16
1994-95 25 6 .806 NCAA Tournament, Sweet 16
1995-96 29 5 .853 NCAA Tournament, Elite Eight
1996-97 34 2 .944 NCAA Tournament, Sweet 16
1997-98 35 4 .897 NCAA Tournament, Second Round
1998-99 23 10 .697 NCAA Tournament, Second Round
1999-00 24 10 .706 NCAA Tournament, Second Round
2000-01 26 7 .788 NCAA Tournament, Sweet 16
2001-02 33 4 ..892 Final Four (lost in semifinals)
2002-03 30 8 .789 Final Four (lost in finals)
Totals 418 101 .805 NCAA Tournament: 34-14

Newbomb Turk
3/24/2006, 09:22 PM
I'm not so sure there's a coach that did less, with more talent, than Roy Williams did at KU.

Cam
3/24/2006, 09:30 PM
I'm not so sure there's a coach that did less, with more talent, than Roy Williams did at KU.
I don't really disagree with you. But still...

okienole3
3/24/2006, 10:20 PM
I'm not so sure there's a coach that did less, with more talent, than Roy Williams did at KU.

I wonder what Kelvin would have done with that talent?

okienole3
3/24/2006, 10:24 PM
Calhoun is a bad comparison. He has been solid from the get go.


In his 19 seasons at Connecticut, Jim Calhoun has compiled a stunning 45-14 overall record in national postseason tournament competition (33-10 in NCAA play, 12-4 in NIT play). His 33 NCAA wins at UConn, all achieved in the past 16 years, far outdistances the entire total of four NCAA victories recorded at Connecticut before Coach Calhoun took over the Husky basketball program in the spring of 1986.

Jim Calhoun has led UConn to 13 NCAA bids in the past 16 years. Under Coach Calhoun's direction, UConn has never lost a NCAA First Round game and UConn is a stunning 23-3 in NCAA First and Second Round competition since 1990. The Huskies have earned ten NCAA Sweet 16 berths in the past 16 years, six Elite Eight appearances, two NCAA Final Four trips and two National Championships.

Newbomb Turk
3/24/2006, 10:28 PM
I wonder what Kelvin would have done with that talent?

Hard to tell, but think of the NBA talent guys RW had at KU.

Pierce, Lafrenz, Gooden, Collison, Hinrich, Miles, Ostertag, Pollard, Simeon, Vaugn.

I'm probably missing some, but you would think he could have won at least one national championship with some of those guys.

Sooner24
3/24/2006, 10:42 PM
I'm not so sure there's a coach that did less, with more talent, than Roy Williams did at KU.


Dean Smith.

Newbomb Turk
3/24/2006, 10:48 PM
Dean Smith.

Dean Smith won an NC (or two?).

Sooner24
3/24/2006, 11:00 PM
Dean Smith won an NC (or two?).


With about 5,000 McDonald AAs in 35 years.

He coached in 11 Final Fours and won TWO titles. With the players he had every year, and the fact he played in eleven FFs, he should have won four or five just by pure luck. The two titles he did win were when a player threw the ball to an NC player trying to set up what may have been the game winning shot and the other time a guy calls a time out that his team didn't have and it sealed the win.

I am going to say if Kelvin ended up coaching at OU for 35 years and had had the talent that Dean Smith did he might have stumbled onto a title somewhere in there.

RacerX
3/24/2006, 11:16 PM
With about 5,000 McDonald AAs in 35 years.
I wonder if he got fries with that.

Stoop Dawg
3/26/2006, 10:30 AM
Originally Posted by soonervegas
I'll answer it. I think a Sweet 16 approximately 50% of the time. So if you take a 10 yr period.....I would like to make it 4-5 times. If we made it to the Sweet 16 4-5 times every 10 years I would be happy as a pig in slop.

Add to that an out right Big 12 Championship every few years.

I don't even know where to start with "Sweet 16 50% of the time". That's really what you you guys expect?

Let's name the teams who have won an "out right Big 12 Championship" every few years.

I'll start... Kansas

Your turn.

Cam
3/26/2006, 10:42 AM
I don't even know where to start with "Sweet 16 50% of the time". That's really what you you guys expect?

Let's name the teams who have won an "out right Big 12 Championship" every few years.

I'll start... Kansas

Your turn.
You asked what would make me happy, I answered you.

With the talent that KU got under Williams, they should've won more.

Do you want an average program, or an elite one? Personally, I expect more than mediocrity.

okienole3
3/26/2006, 12:02 PM
Look no further than UCONN to see how a program can turn into an elite program. Do you realize that they were once in the Patriot League?

Spray
3/26/2006, 12:14 PM
My completely unprofessional opinion is this: Sampson seems to have plateaued. For me OU basketball is simply another form of entertainment. Like most Sooner athletic fans I live and die with football and everything else is gravy.

That being said, I watch A LOT less OU basketball than I did even 5-6 years ago because I find it boring and frustrating to watch. I don't have the option of attending because I live out of state, but I doubt I'd be spending much money to go to games even if I lived in Norman. 20 win seasons are nice, but OU basketball is not something I find myself nearly as excited about as I used to.

If this opinion is not that uncommon, then if I were Joe C. I'd be very concerned, especially from a business standpoint, which at its core, is his job. If this is what I can expect from OU basketball from Kelvin Sampson then I have to say, as I consumer, I am dissatisfied with the product. The administration can draw their own conclusions...

william_brasky
3/26/2006, 12:47 PM
Like most Sooner athletic fans I live and die with football and everything else is gravy.

Never underestimate the power of good gravy, and never say never. :texan:

stoopified
3/26/2006, 03:17 PM
They had more possessions cause we turned the ball over a brazillion times. We throttled them cause they shot like crap.A brazilian times?Is that a soutnern hemisphere math term?:D

Newbomb Turk
3/26/2006, 03:23 PM
A brazilian times?Is that a soutnern hemisphere math term?:D

eggzackery.

Sooner04
3/26/2006, 05:14 PM
That being said, I watch A LOT less OU basketball than I did even 5-6 years ago because I find it boring and frustrating to watch.
There are a lot of people who agree with your sentiments.

The attendance at the less than marquis men's games would be Exhibit "A".

okienole3
3/26/2006, 05:18 PM
I could care less about how a team looks so long as it doesn't prevent you from winning. Sometimes I feel like Kelvin's style does just that.

Stoop Dawg
3/26/2006, 07:04 PM
You asked what would make me happy, I answered you.


In fact, I didn't ask what would make you happy. I asked what was considered "acceptable" for a coach at OU. You answered "Make the Sweet 16 50% of the time and win the conference every few years".

I just wanted to point out that your definition of "acceptable" is pretty close to impossible. Which is exactly what I expected.

Cam
3/26/2006, 07:10 PM
In fact, I didn't ask what would make you happy. I asked what was considered "acceptable" for a coach at OU. You answered "Make the Sweet 16 50% of the time and win the conference every few years".

I just wanted to point out that your definition of "acceptable" is pretty close to impossible. Which is exactly what I expected.
Happy, acceptable. :rolleyes:

No, it's not impossible. It is much higher than what we've achieved over the last 12 years though.

So, what's acceptable to you? Still waiting for an answer on that.

MojoRisen
3/26/2006, 08:29 PM
Who cares, I will start with a coach that doesn't put the blame on his players. Was he admitting burn out- that he could not invest himself now that he is a multi millionair like he used too????? I believe that Sampson has not only given up on his team this year- that he was distracted with scenarios- even Kelvin at his best with his best talent gets beat by Indiana - a team we should have smoked. I don't have a problem with Kelvin beyond the fact that with his system- and the way he treats fans and media- that he better win.

Sooner04
3/26/2006, 08:55 PM
To be fair, Kelvin was not at his best against Indiana in '02. Quannas shredded his ankle in Atlanta, which is something I don't give Kelvin a pass on, considering most teams take it pretty easy during the final weekend.

We had one of those bare-knuckle practices, from all reports, and Q White's injury forced two key players, Hollis and Ere, to play out of position offensively.

MojoRisen
3/26/2006, 09:14 PM
We want to win and win big here at OU- let's make it happen...

Stoop Dawg
3/26/2006, 11:47 PM
Happy, acceptable. :rolleyes:

So those are the same thing to you? Okay. I draw a distinction between the two, but I guess you don't have to. No problem.


No, it's not impossible. It is much higher than what we've achieved over the last 12 years though.

I didn't say it was impossible. And yes, it's much higher than what we've achieved over the last 12 years.


So, what's acceptable to you? Still waiting for an answer on that.

Actually, I don't see where you asked. No wonder debating with you is so difficult.

I think our current situation is acceptable. Top 3 in the conf most years. Going to the dance pretty much every year. Occassional fantastic teams bracketed by "down" years. It's pretty much what all teams experience, except those "elite" schools.

And thanks for the negspek.

TopDawg
3/27/2006, 10:22 AM
There are a lot of people who agree with your sentiments.

The attendance at the less than marquis men's games would be Exhibit "A".

The ticketing structure could be as much to blame as anything else, with the NIT game being Exhibit "A" in that case.

Cam
3/27/2006, 07:34 PM
So those are the same thing to you? Okay. I draw a distinction between the two, but I guess you don't have to. No problem.
They're close enough for me.


I didn't say it was impossible. And yes, it's much higher than what we've achieved over the last 12 years.
My appologies, you said 'almost' impossible. I still contend that it's not.


Actually, I don't see where you asked. No wonder debating with you is so difficult.
I've asked the question on multiple threads, to all who think the program's fine. You definately fall into that catagory.

Debating's not diffiicult at all. Back up your points.


I think our current situation is acceptable. Top 3 in the conf most years. Going to the dance pretty much every year. Occassional fantastic teams bracketed by "down" years. It's pretty much what all teams experience, except those "elite" schools.
Well, I don't. So what's so wrong with believing we can be an "elite" school in more than one sport?


And thanks for the negspek.
Funny, cause I don't remember negspeking you at all.

Stoop Dawg
3/27/2006, 07:57 PM
My appologies, you said 'almost' impossible. I still contend that it's not.

Debating's not diffiicult at all. Back up your points.

Okay, so back up your point that getting to the Sweet Sixteen 50% of the time and winning your conference outright every few years is not 'almost' impossible. Name the teams that have done it.

Cam
3/27/2006, 08:50 PM
Okay, so back up your point that getting to the Sweet Sixteen 50% of the time and winning your conference outright every few years is not 'almost' impossible. Name the teams that have done it.
Great, now I've got my own freaking stalker.

I'm not worried about what other teams do, I'm concerned about the OU MBB program and the direction it's gone/going.

Don't give two ****s about the others.

The burden is upon you to prove, you're the one that says it can't be done.

Cam
3/27/2006, 09:17 PM
I spent a little time trying to find a site similar to college football data warehouse for basketball and it just doesn't exist.

You're giving a statement as fact and I'm stating a belief. If you're going to give a statement of fact, back it up. I don't believe that NCAA tournament history falls under proprietary information. Have fun, you've got your work cut out for you.

You're still ****ed about the cost of living debate, huh? Ever figure out what areas are included when they say Oklahoma City? Didn't think so.

OUstud
3/27/2006, 09:40 PM
Money or not, surely there's 12,000 people in the Greater OKC area (including students) that would be able to attend games pretty regularly.

Sooner24
3/27/2006, 09:45 PM
Money or not, surely there's 12,000 people in the Greater OKC area (including students) that would be able to attend games pretty regularly.


The Hornets are doing a good job of siphoning off some of the money that would be spent buying OU tickets to fill those 12,000 seats. I wouldn't go to an NBA game if you gave me a free ticket but the people that are going are enjoying an uptempo game compared to what we are running in Norman.

TopDawg
3/27/2006, 09:49 PM
To be fair, Kelvin was not at his best against Indiana in '02. Quannas shredded his ankle in Atlanta, which is something I don't give Kelvin a pass on, considering most teams take it pretty easy during the final weekend.

We had one of those bare-knuckle practices, from all reports, and Q White's injury forced two key players, Hollis and Ere, to play out of position offensively.

Until we win our first NC, that practice is going to haunt my dreams. We win it all with a healthy Q.

Sooner04
3/27/2006, 10:32 PM
Until we win our first NC, that practice is going to haunt my dreams. We win it all with a healthy Q.
Probably so, but a loss to Maryland with our best group on the floor is a lot easier to take than a loss to an inferior Indiana team with one of our key cogs at 15%.

I'll tell you this, if we'd beaten Indiana and lost to Kansas in the Finals............well, I'd probably still be in the Georgia Penal System.

soonerbub
3/28/2006, 02:49 AM
The ticketing structure could be as much to blame as anything else, with the NIT game being Exhibit "A" in that case.

You mean the NIT game (that we dominated) against the team in the Final Four now? That says it all right there in my book.

Spray
3/28/2006, 09:16 AM
Money or not, surely there's 12,000 people in the Greater OKC area (including students) that would be able to attend games pretty regularly.

Not if putt-putt or going to see "Bowling for Columbine" is a more entertaining option.

CtheB
3/28/2006, 09:44 AM
Money or not, surely there's 12,000 people in the Greater OKC area (including students) that would be able to attend games pretty regularly.

stud, I used to be one of those 12000 people, buying the season tickets and making the donations. Then at some point, I decided that it wasn't worth the money or the time anymore, so I stopped. Unless you're offering something to bring people in they aren't going to come, and that's not me talking, it's the six to seven thousand empty seats most games getting in their say.

Some may call us "bad fans" or "unjustified" in our expectations, but I offer this question, would you go and pay premium rates for anything that doesn't appeal to you? Would you pay extra for a car you don't enjoy driving? Would you pay primetime prices to go see a bad movie? Probably not.

Then I ask, if you did make the mistake once, would you do it again?

This is just how I feel.

Let's just say this, the attrition of attendance didn't happen overnight, they are fans that just stopped enjoying Oklahoma basketball over time and obviously are the majority, because as they leave, there aren't a whole lot of people wanting to take their seat.

LSUdeek
3/28/2006, 09:48 AM
You mean the NIT game (that we dominated) against the team in the Final Four now? That says it all right there in my book.

There is 1 player currently starting on this team that started in the NIT matchup in 2004. One other is coming off of the bench and the other that even played at all is redshirting this year (medical).

TopDawg
3/28/2006, 10:02 AM
I'll tell you this, if we'd beaten Indiana and lost to Kansas in the Finals............well, I'd probably still be in the Georgia Penal System.

heh

TopDawg
3/28/2006, 10:06 AM
there aren't a whole lot of people wanting to take their seat.

I want to take their seat. I just don't have the money yet.

Rock Hard Corn Frog
3/28/2006, 10:46 AM
There is 1 player currently starting on this team that started in the NIT matchup in 2004. One other is coming off of the bench and the other that even played at all is redshirting this year (medical).

Yeah, since Bookout was hurt then I don't remember anyone on OU's roster now playing in that game. The home crowd was good for that game though, I will say that.

I don't like the way the tickets are done now but I also would like to see more fans at the games, myself included, even though I'm 3 1/2 hours away. I don't buy the excuse that a 32-37 NBA team is taking away all OU's potential fans in a metro area of over 750,000. I liked the old practice of at the tipoff or shortly after all seats below were fair game. Ultimately though the program like any other wants to make more $.

OUstud
3/28/2006, 08:33 PM
stud, I used to be one of those 12000 people, buying the season tickets and making the donations. Then at some point, I decided that it wasn't worth the money or the time anymore, so I stopped. Unless you're offering something to bring people in they aren't going to come, and that's not me talking, it's the six to seven thousand empty seats most games getting in their say.

Some may call us "bad fans" or "unjustified" in our expectations, but I offer this question, would you go and pay premium rates for anything that doesn't appeal to you? Would you pay extra for a car you don't enjoy driving? Would you pay primetime prices to go see a bad movie? Probably not.

Then I ask, if you did make the mistake once, would you do it again?

This is just how I feel.

Let's just say this, the attrition of attendance didn't happen overnight, they are fans that just stopped enjoying Oklahoma basketball over time and obviously are the majority, because as they leave, there aren't a whole lot of people wanting to take their seat.

I am one of those 12,000 for games I can go to (I live in Edmond and I can drive but homework/church on Wednesdays has to be placed over OU-Prairie View A&M or whatever). I bet if we land a good, uptempo coach you'll be back.

CtheB
3/28/2006, 09:12 PM
I am one of those 12,000 for games I can go to (I live in Edmond and I can drive but homework/church on Wednesdays has to be placed over OU-Prairie View A&M or whatever). I bet if we land a good, uptempo coach you'll be back.


you know something, you're probably right.

Stoop Dawg
3/29/2006, 12:46 PM
Great, now I've got my own freaking stalker.

So, telling you that your expectations are too high is the same as "stalking". Wow. Just ... wow.


You're still ****ed about the cost of living debate, huh? Ever figure out what areas are included when they say Oklahoma City? Didn't think so.

That was you? Yeah, *I* am the stalker here. :rolleyes:

Sooner24
3/29/2006, 12:53 PM
Boy this thread has taken a U-turn.

GDC
3/29/2006, 03:22 PM
No, it flipped a beyotch.

Cam
3/29/2006, 07:30 PM
So, telling you that your expectations are too high is the same as "stalking". Wow. Just ... wow.
You have every right to have low expectations in life. You have zero right to expect others to have the same standards such as yourself. Complacency succs, period.


That was you? Yeah, *I* am the stalker here. :rolleyes:
Yeah, I'm the one suffering from idocy. :rolleyes:

Cam
3/29/2006, 09:38 PM
So, telling you that your expectations are too high is the same as "stalking". Wow. Just ... wow.



That was you? Yeah, *I* am the stalker here. :rolleyes:
The funny thing about this is that I've stated repeatedly that all I want is program progression, period.

Let's look at KS' 12 years and the previous 12 years:

Exhibit A:
Avg W's: 25
Avg L's: 9
Avg # of games: 34
Win %: 74.57%

Exhibit B:
Avg W's: 23
Avg L's: 9
Avg # of games: 32
Win %: 71.91%

In case you don't want to take the less than 5 minutes it would take to find out which is which, exhibit B is Sampson's tenure.

No matter how you define it, that's not progression.

Stoop Dawg
3/29/2006, 11:44 PM
The funny thing about this is that I've stated repeatedly that all I want is program progression, period.

Let's look at KS' 12 years and the previous 12 years:

Exhibit A:
Avg W's: 25
Avg L's: 9
Avg # of games: 34
Win %: 74.57%

Exhibit B:
Avg W's: 23
Avg L's: 9
Avg # of games: 32
Win %: 71.91%

In case you don't want to take the less than 5 minutes it would take to find out which is which, exhibit B is Sampson's tenure.

No matter how you define it, that's not progression.

That's cool. Hey, how about we compare all the coaches at OU?

http://www.soonerstats.com/bb/coaches/index.cfm



Kelvin Sampson 1995-2006 279-109 71.9%
Billy Tubbs 1981-1994 333-132 71.6%
Dave Bliss 1976-1980 76-52 59.4%


Hmmm, interesting.

als12179
3/30/2006, 12:44 AM
I don't buy the excuse that a 32-37 NBA team is taking away all OU's potential fans in a metro area of over 750,000.

The OKC metro area is actually about 1.25 mil peeps now. Tulsa is about 850,000. Together U-Tulsa and Oral Roberts drew about the same attendance per game as OU did last season according to the NCAA.
(~11,500) OU is actually ahead of some pretty well known programs.

http://www.ncaa.org/stats/m_basketball/attendance/2005_basketball_attend.pdf

I'm sure the numbers the NCAA uses are for paid attendance though.

Sooner24
3/30/2006, 01:24 AM
The OKC metro area is actually about 1.25 mil peeps now. Tulsa is about 850,000. Together U-Tulsa and Oral Roberts drew about the same attendance per game as OU did last season according to the NCAA.
(~11,500) OU is actually ahead of some pretty well known programs.

http://www.ncaa.org/stats/m_basketball/attendance/2005_basketball_attend.pdf

I'm sure the numbers the NCAA uses are for paid attendance though.


The NCAA uses the numbers OU gives them which is tickets sold not butts in seats.

Ruprecht
3/30/2006, 08:17 PM
How many wins per year do you want? Crappy fan support with consistent 22to 24 wins per year....

I don't think the product is the problem.

7 losses in football is not acceptable. Understand the difference between the sports?

RacerX
3/31/2006, 12:20 AM
We're all so glad you took the time to register.

Stoop Dawg
3/31/2006, 12:47 PM
We're all so glad you took the time to register.

heh