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View Full Version : Just a general Oklahoma basketball question.



oumartin
3/18/2006, 08:40 AM
On and off this year its been brought up that the LNC cannot sell out except for big games. Its not very loud and so on and so forth. I think there are alot of passionate Oklahoma basketball fans on here and in the state.
So, what would it take to get the LNC rockin for most home games and get butts in the seats?
I heard all day yesterday and even before that if we don't Like Kelvins style we don't understand basketball and aren't true fans anyhow. Well, I played basketball alot growing up in. I watched Tubbs coach and now Sampson. I have a preference that I chose.
This is not a bash session but if people gripe about not filling up LNC is that the goal? To fill that place up? If most oklahoma basketball fans are bandwagon(which i also hear) and we just want to watch full court high octane basketball we shouldn't even have a say?
What is the goal of Oklahoma basketball?
Is it championships? Is it 20 win seasons? Is it a crazy LNC?
there is so many questions I have about the program but dont' know how to ask them without offending.
I personally feel that if Texas and Florida and Ohio State can be a player in both than I feel that OU should be able to contend for Championships in basketball at least on a 5-6 year basis. and I mean National Championships.
I've heard thats too much to ask, We just aren't ever gonna get there. I ask you why not?

Cam
3/18/2006, 09:20 AM
Why not? Cause apparently, winning 20 out of 30 games a season is enough.

Just imagine if we had a football coach that went 7-3 for 10 years. Forget about it, he wouldn't last 5, much less 12.

It's just too much to have high expectations for any sport but football.

Oh, and for those that say "if we don't Like Kelvins style we don't understand basketball and aren't true fans anyhow.":
Dean Smith, the 4 corner offense, and the set-shot ain't around any more. It's because some of us have actually played the sport that we know that 4 guys standing around looking Stonehenge on offense just ain't going to get it done.

Kelvin had a team built to run this year. They ran well one game, at home vs UT. Other than that, they got in their spread the floor, eat the clock, chunk a 20 foot with 3 seconds left on the shot clock offense. It's the same thing we've seen every stinkin year.

Yeah, that's damn exciting. :rolleyes:

Soonerus
3/18/2006, 09:25 AM
Game times are not a problem for me because I live in Norman but a lot of my out of town friends tell me they would come to more games if some of the start times were friendlier...but OU made a choice to accept the TV $$$ instead of live audiences when it went with a lot of 8:00 p.m. starts...

Big Red Ron
3/18/2006, 10:55 AM
Tubbs never had a problem with crowds. It's Kelvin's boring brand of ball.

oumartin
3/18/2006, 10:57 AM
It's Kelvin's boring brand of ball


You are a complete idiot and know nothing about the game of basketball


bandwagon basketball fan ;)

Big Red Ron
3/18/2006, 11:01 AM
Who is Mark Shannon?

Big Red Ron
3/18/2006, 11:02 AM
Oh you mean Mark (I work for Kelvin and never played a sport in my life) Rogers?

oumartin
3/18/2006, 11:02 AM
forgive me on the last name. rodgers. Mark Shannon was funny

Frozen Sooner
3/18/2006, 11:51 AM
Boy, I remember in 1992/3 and 1993/4 being able to walk up to LNC at tipoff and get a pretty darn good seat in the student section for most games. Is that what you mean by Tubbs never having a problem with crowds?

Big Red Ron
3/18/2006, 12:05 PM
Boy, I remember in 1992/3 and 1993/4 being able to walk up to LNC at tipoff and get a pretty darn good seat in the student section for most games. Is that what you mean by Tubbs never having a problem with crowds?I think it was pretty obvious that Tubbs was worn out by then. I remember from 83-90 it was almost impossible to grt good seats.

RacerX
3/18/2006, 12:08 PM
Don't forget, almost all of the OU games have been on TV for at least 3 years. This has had an impact on attendance as well.

SoonerInKCMO
3/18/2006, 01:09 PM
Don't forget, almost all of the OU games have been on TV for at least 3 years. This has had an impact on attendance as well.

I'd go with the 'boring basketball' theory before I'd go with that - nearly every major conference team is on TV all the time in their local markets and lots of them have better attendence than OU.

FaninAma
3/18/2006, 01:11 PM
Cam, I agree totally with you. It drove me nuts to see the Sooners break the opposition's press only to pull the ball back out instead of finishing off the break.

bigdsooner
3/18/2006, 01:48 PM
Why not? Cause apparently, winning 20 out of 30 games a season is enough.

Just imagine if we had a football coach that went 7-3 for 10 years. Forget about it, he wouldn't last 5, much less 12.

It's just too much to have high expectations for any sport but football.

Oh, and for those that say "if we don't Like Kelvins style we don't understand basketball and aren't true fans anyhow.":
Dean Smith, the 4 corner offense, and the set-shot ain't around any more. It's because some of us have actually played the sport that we know that 4 guys standing around looking Stonehenge on offense just ain't going to get it done.

Kelvin had a team built to run this year. They ran well one game, at home vs UT. Other than that, they got in their spread the floor, eat the clock, chunk a 20 foot with 3 seconds left on the shot clock offense. It's the same thing we've seen every stinkin year.

Yeah, that's damn exciting. :rolleyes:

my thoughts as well, i know it sucks, but its the truth

OUstud
3/18/2006, 02:37 PM
1. The LNC needs to be more exciting for basketball. It's hard to tell it's a college arena sometimes when Bowling for Soup's 1985 song and J. Geils Band plays, treble to the max, plays when our guys come back on the floor. Also, the crappy "kssh kshh kssh, kssh kssh kssh" that no one claps along to is annoying, especially when they cut off our fight song for it. So I think for the most part when we go to/come out of a timeout we need the band playing for more of a college atmosphere. I like Boomer Sooner a hell of a lot more than the over played Zombie Nation.

2. Also, our student section needs to be moved to wrap around the whole north end, taking student seats out of the upper level.

3. Donors who buy them for football points must attend at least 80% of the games or give them to some one who will do that, or else they get no credit and are not allowed to purchase donor tickets for 2 seasons. Yes, it's harsh, but we need fans.

4. Take the carpet off the walls, it deadens the sound.

5. Corporate tickets will have the same rules as donors: if the seats aren't full 80% of the games, that company loses tickets for 2 seasons.

6. Kill the fake ponies.

I'm sure I'll think of more ideas later, tell me what you think.

RacerX
3/18/2006, 03:27 PM
I'd go with the 'boring basketball' theory before I'd go with that - nearly every major conference team is on TV all the time in their local markets and lots of them have better attendence than OU.

I'm not sure anybody watches them on TV either.

Stoop Dawg
3/18/2006, 10:58 PM
I personally feel that if Texas and Florida and Ohio State can be a player in both than I feel that OU should be able to contend for Championships in basketball at least on a 5-6 year basis. and I mean National Championships.
I've heard thats too much to ask, We just aren't ever gonna get there. I ask you why not?

We have half the enrollment (and half the alumni) of the schools mentioned?

Our state has 1/2 (Ohio), 1/5 (Florida), 1/6 (Texas) the population of the states mentioned?

Soonerus
3/18/2006, 11:00 PM
given the option older people watch on TV...reality...

RacerX
3/19/2006, 09:55 AM
given the option older people watch on TV...reality...

Especially when the offensive production reminds them of a simpler time, a time before shot clocks.

oumartin
3/19/2006, 10:15 AM
I hear they're gonna take away the three point line and put the peach basket back up when OU takes the court.
Bring back the Nutters too!

Boomer_Sooner_sax
3/19/2006, 11:27 AM
1. The LNC needs to be more exciting for basketball. It's hard to tell it's a college arena sometimes when Bowling for Soup's 1985 song and J. Geils Band plays, treble to the max, plays when our guys come back on the floor. Also, the crappy "kssh kshh kssh, kssh kssh kssh" that no one claps along to is annoying, especially when they cut off our fight song for it. So I think for the most part when we go to/come out of a timeout we need the band playing for more of a college atmosphere. I like Boomer Sooner a hell of a lot more than the over played Zombie Nation.

2. Also, our student section needs to be moved to wrap around the whole north end, taking student seats out of the upper level.

3. Donors who buy them for football points must attend at least 80% of the games or give them to some one who will do that, or else they get no credit and are not allowed to purchase donor tickets for 2 seasons. Yes, it's harsh, but we need fans.

4. Take the carpet off the walls, it deadens the sound.

5. Corporate tickets will have the same rules as donors: if the seats aren't full 80% of the games, that company loses tickets for 2 seasons.

6. Kill the fake ponies.

I'm sure I'll think of more ideas later, tell me what you think.

Amen!!! When I was a student there, I had season tickets for all seven years (I know, I really liked college!) It is hard for me to go to games now living in Texas, but I only missed one or two games a year when I went and it was usually a school activity I would miss them for.

The one thing I don't understand though is there is close to a million people in the greater OKC area alone and a majority of them are OU fans, how come we can't get a measly 12,000 people to a two-hour basketball game that is not very expensive? It blows my mind.

oumartin
3/19/2006, 11:30 AM
how come we can't get a measly 12,000 people to a two-hour basketball game that is not very expensive? It blows my mind.

um,, anyone wanna take this one?

Gandalf_The_Grey
3/19/2006, 01:08 PM
I think it was pretty obvious that Tubbs was worn out by then. I remember from 83-90 it was almost impossible to grt good seats.

So OU fans weren't happy with a high octane attack, they preferred success over style one would say. I am just glad Tubbs didn't win a National Championship or you guys would get even deeper up Tubb's ***. I mean the way we talk about Tubbs, you would think we was talking about Dean Smith or Coach K.

MojoRisen
3/19/2006, 01:14 PM
Anybody who is watching basketball this weekend can answer the question of why we can put seats in LNC- Kelvin plays I do what I want and if it doesn't work- I let my kids loose basketball.

oumartin
3/19/2006, 01:16 PM
Kelvins style would tolerated if he was making deeper runs. He doesn't.
That style will never keep fans excited during a basketball game.

I'm over comparing styles. Just from what I've read and heard in the last couple days and I've drawn my conclusion!

Stoop Dawg
3/19/2006, 02:04 PM
um,, anyone wanna take this one?

1. Time.
2. Location.
3. Large number of games.
4. Money.

Big Red Ron
3/19/2006, 02:35 PM
So OU fans weren't happy with a high octane attack, they preferred success over style one would say. I am just glad Tubbs didn't win a National Championship or you guys would get even deeper up Tubb's ***. I mean the way we talk about Tubbs, you would think we was talking about Dean Smith or Coach K.Tubbs did get us to the championship game and we loved his style (remember he left OU not fired). Kelvin hasn't and we don't care for thug ball. By the way Bill took over a program at OU that was in much worse shape than Kelvin.

oumartin
3/19/2006, 02:39 PM
whats the chances of him getting the boot tomorrow?
I know Joe C. reads the board.

NickZeppelin
3/19/2006, 02:43 PM
Tubbs never had a problem with crowds. It's Kelvin's boring brand of ball.

Did you go to the games in the early 90's? I was one of about 2,000 people that regularly showed up regularly. I remember an OSU game when there were about 2,000 empty seats. But Billy never had crowd problems.

oumartin
3/19/2006, 02:48 PM
well Nick, I also remember there being no room when billy tubbs was there. people ripping up newspapers and the place rockin!
Billy had slipped his last 2-3 years nobody is questioning that.
But in his heyday his teams were fun to watch and consistantly top 5 in the nation. His tourney record wasn't all that stellar. I dont' deny that.
Kelvin has never played a fan friendly style. and he has taken the same road as tubbs. he has worn out his stay.. Cept, unlike billy. Kelvin has managed to probably land the team on probation!

apusooner
3/19/2006, 02:52 PM
i remember going to a women's game once and it was sold out. i realize it was only 2 games, and it was the ncaa tourney, but it was pretty amazing. i don't know that this has anything to do with the topic at hand, but i wanted to post something.

NickZeppelin
3/19/2006, 02:55 PM
His style was more fun and few defenses played like they do now. But that style doesn't work anymore. You don't see teams score 90+ a game. UNC last year was close but they were a defensive first team.

oumartin
3/19/2006, 02:58 PM
what did you just say?
who's style doesn't work anymore? UNC won the whole thing last year. Williams has always played a pressure, up tempo style game. Don't feed me that crap about it not working.
it appears to me that Kelvins style doesn't work anymore.

Newbomb Turk
3/19/2006, 03:01 PM
UNC won the whole thing last year. Williams has always played a pressure, up tempo style game. Don't feed me that crap about it not working.

I could have coached UNC to a championship last year with the talent they had.

MojoRisen
3/19/2006, 03:01 PM
Nick- tell me more about UNC and Roy williams- Have you not seen the spacing- the passing and how they attack the rim- how they can handle a zone- they score in the 80s on avg- so 90s isn't out of the relm for those guys- I would just like to see an offense that attacks the rim- not 4 coners with 11 minutes left in the game so we can blow leads- that we earned with being aggressive. You've been punked...

Everybody has to play defense- holmes- some just play a little more aggressive tempo- trapp and actually do some complex schemes- I heard an anouncer say- for OU the only defensive complement was when neil jammed the outlet pass-

oumartin
3/19/2006, 03:08 PM
No you couldn't Turk! You woulda had them play stall ball and dribble out at halfcourt for 28 seconds! :D

NickZeppelin
3/19/2006, 03:09 PM
what did you just say?
who's style doesn't work anymore? UNC won the whole thing last year. Williams has always played a pressure, up tempo style game. Don't feed me that crap about it not working.
it appears to me that Kelvins style doesn't work anymore.

But Roy Williams was defense first. 1988 we allowed 80 a game. You won't see a team win anymore allowing 80 a game. UNC last year won by an average of 85-65 if I remember right.

Newbomb Turk
3/19/2006, 03:12 PM
No you couldn't Turk! You woulda had them play stall ball and dribble out at halfcourt for 28 seconds! :D

exactly - and I'd do it just so people would bitch about me on a message board. ;)

MojoRisen
3/19/2006, 03:12 PM
Nick, Defense is important, Defense can create fastbreak opportunity.

More importantly is how do you score when the other team is playing stingy defense- spacing, percise passing, in game adjustments, attacking the rim either passing or dribble penetration. Your right we OU didn't play defense nor did we really run an offense- Kelvin took the year off...

oumartin
3/19/2006, 03:14 PM
if you are telling me that tubbs teams didnt' play defense you are more retarded than you appear..
Um, teams scored more because there were more possessions! OU's offense under tubbs came off defensive steals and traps and pressure.
Break the press score some easy buckets(which is something else Kelvin aint figured out). But alot of times you force teams to make a mistake which leads to easy buckets!

Newbomb Turk
3/19/2006, 03:15 PM
Kelvin took the year off...

I'd agree with that for sure.

oumartin
3/19/2006, 03:17 PM
Turk, I know you are a basketball athletic supporter ;) and wanna give Kelvin the benefit of the doubt.
But if he really lands this team on probation and really said he was looking to get out do you want him to coach the Sooners?

Newbomb Turk
3/19/2006, 03:19 PM
Turk, I know you are a basketball athletic supporter ;) and wanna give Kelvin the benefit of the doubt.
But if he really lands this team on probation and really said he was looking to get out do you want him to coach the Sooners?

No I don't.

Gandalf_The_Grey
3/19/2006, 03:21 PM
Did Billy have to deal with the donor empty seat issue?

oumartin
3/19/2006, 03:22 PM
okay,
the rumor of him wanting out is something I dont' know how to take. I personally think he said it. His demeanor on the bench this year to me shouted - burnt out-. personal opinion but I still think its true.

I also think that this investigation is more serious than one wants to think. otherwise why isn't it over and done with? again. I'm not in the know but I just think it might be more serious than what people think. Maybe Kelvin knows this too and thats why you say that demeanor on the bench.

Newbomb Turk
3/19/2006, 03:26 PM
I also think that this investigation is more serious than one wants to think. otherwise why isn't it over and done with?

I think the final decision by the NCAA wouldn't be made until the tournament is over no matter how serious things were.

Stoop Dawg
3/19/2006, 04:44 PM
Tubbs attendance:

http://www.soonerstats.com/bb/seasons/index.cfm?decade=1980
http://www.soonerstats.com/bb/seasons/index.cfm?decade=1990

Sampson attendance:
http://www.soonerstats.com/bb/seasons/index.cfm?decade=1990
http://www.soonerstats.com/bb/seasons/index.cfm?decade=2000

If the attendance numbers are based on sales instead of real bodies, I apologize in advance. But it appears to me that some people have decided they don't like having Sampson as our coach and are looking for any reason at all to justify it - even if they have to make one up.

You people are more than welcome to want a different coach, but at least be honest about why.

Big Red Ron
3/19/2006, 04:45 PM
I think the final decision by the NCAA wouldn't be made until the tournament is over no matter how serious things were.I'm not so sure. The NCAA handed tOSU with a pretty stiff penalty the day before the tourney. They may have just been busy.

Big Red Ron
3/19/2006, 04:49 PM
Tubbs attendance:

http://www.soonerstats.com/bb/seasons/index.cfm?decade=1980
http://www.soonerstats.com/bb/seasons/index.cfm?decade=1990

Sampson attendance:
http://www.soonerstats.com/bb/seasons/index.cfm?decade=1990
http://www.soonerstats.com/bb/seasons/index.cfm?decade=2000

If the attendance numbers are based on sales instead of real bodies, I apologize in advance. But it appears to me that some people have decided they don't like having Sampson as our coach and are looking for any reason at all to justify it - even if they have to make one up.

You people are more than welcome to want a different coach, but at least be honest about why.Apples and oranges. Those attendance records are for paid attendance and also Sampson's attendance numbers are inflated because of Joe C's point system for Football tickets. Billy never had that kind of deal to bloat his numbers.

Newbomb Turk
3/19/2006, 04:56 PM
I'm not so sure. The NCAA handed tOSU with a pretty stiff penalty the day before the tourney. They may have just been busy.

could be - I'm not completely sure. It may not have anything to do with the tournament, but I think you do have to wait until the date of your meeting/hearing with the NCAA.

oumartin
3/19/2006, 04:58 PM
attendance has never been my reason or excuse to fire him. I said give him another year(at least up until a couple days ago)

I want him gone cuz hes cheated and been caught at it, and now for his comments.

I dont' like his style but that can change with some pressure from the AD. however I want him gone due to the NCAA and his comments combined.

Stoop Dawg
3/19/2006, 07:47 PM
Those attendance records are for paid attendance.

Link?

Big Red Ron
3/19/2006, 07:56 PM
Link?That's the only way OU publishes them. How many times have you been at a game with around 6k and they announce, "A paid attendance..." at 11K?:kelvin:

soonerguild
3/19/2006, 08:16 PM
All these reasons are rediculous. Style, times, money, talent, cheating, LNC, blah blah blah blah blah. There is no reason we don't pack out games. I see lots of games on tv where schools that are never good, have low talent, play the same style, and at the same times fill their arena's to the brim. Real fans shouldn't have to have a reason to go to the games, they should got to support their team, because it's their team. period.

The realistic thing is that this state just really doesn't care, the only reason oswho fills gia is because they are terrible at everything else that matters, and that is the only thing they can hold on too, much to the entertainment of OU fans.

Our baseball attendence sucks and we actually are really good, not just supposed to be.

Big Red Ron
3/19/2006, 08:31 PM
"We were obviously spoiled with "Billy Ball." - 'True Fan'

Gandalf_The_Grey
3/19/2006, 10:09 PM
Okay explain something to me. I was too young to enjoy the "glory" years of OU basketball. I only got in at the end when Tubbs were essence of suck. From what I can tell Billy Tubbs had 4 or 5 NBA talents on his roster. And on some I have seen, they 3 or 4 on one team. In 1988, he had the best team in the country. Now even Dukes and North Carolina's usually only have 3 or 4 NBA type talent on their teams at the most. Billy Tubbs with this "amazing talent" that had several NBA quality producers managed to create a resume very similar to Kelvin Sampson. Kelvin Sampson made it to the Final Four with a team that had exactly zero NBA players. Tubbs made it to the Championship game with 4 NBA players. What exactly did Tubbs do but underachieve with teams loaded with talent?

Cam
3/19/2006, 10:15 PM
Played KU in Kansas City in the championship game.

They weren't one of the best teams in the country, they were by far the best. They had a bad night against a team that they'd beaten twice already.

This was also the time of the UNLV/Duke strangle hold on the college basketball world. How we got the talent we did is beyond me.

The game of college basketball has changed quite a bit since then. It's like comparing apples to oranges, which is why I don't compare the two.

CtheB
3/19/2006, 10:15 PM
Here's an answer to your question. Tubbs' success started to regress when he couldn't refill the talent bowl. Kelvin's success has started to regress as the talent level increased.

CtheB
3/19/2006, 10:16 PM
Played KU in Kansas City in the championship game.

They weren't one of the best teams in the country, they were by far the best. They had a bad night against a team that they'd beaten twice already.

This was also the time of the UNLV/Duke strangle hold on the college basketball world. How we got the talent we did is beyond me.

The game of college basketball has changed quite a bit since then. It's like comparing apples to oranges, which is why I don't compare the two.

JUCO, JUCO, JUCO..and it always came down to us and UNLV.

Big Red Ron
3/19/2006, 10:25 PM
Well Stacey King, Waymon Tisdale and Ryan Minor didn't play together and I can't remember whith whome Blaylock and Grant played between King and Tisdale.

Stoop Dawg
3/19/2006, 10:37 PM
Here's an answer to your question. Tubbs' success started to regress when he couldn't refill the talent bowl. Kelvin's success has started to regress as the talent level increased.

You think the talent this year was better than 2003? We watched different games, I guess.

CtheB
3/19/2006, 10:47 PM
Well, according to the draft boards, the talent was better this year than 2003.

NickZeppelin
3/19/2006, 10:48 PM
Talent doesn't win games alone. You can have the most talented group of players ever and not do a damn thing.

CtheB
3/19/2006, 10:52 PM
Talent doesn't win games alone. You can have the most talented group of players ever and not do a damn thing.

So, Nick, if you have a lot of talent, whose responsibility is it to get that talent to win games?

NickZeppelin
3/19/2006, 10:58 PM
It depends if they want to play together as a team. If they don't want to play as a team together on the court it doesn't matter who is coaching them. Look at the NBA players in the Olympics and World Championships in recent years.

CtheB
3/19/2006, 10:59 PM
Nick:

If they don't want to play together on the court, then the coach has lost control.

NickZeppelin
3/19/2006, 11:02 PM
Not neccessarily. Sometimes there's nothing a coach can do to make teams play together on a court. But that wasn't a problem with OU really this year as much as they just didn't play the same defense as they've had. I think this group liked each other and tried hard they just didn't play well on defense.

Vegas Sooner
3/20/2006, 11:45 AM
Tubbs never had a problem with crowds. It's Kelvin's boring brand of ball.

hahahahaha...good one.

MojoRisen
3/20/2006, 11:51 AM
Not neccessarily. Sometimes there's nothing a coach can do to make teams play together on a court. But that wasn't a problem with OU really this year as much as they just didn't play the same defense as they've had. I think this group liked each other and tried hard they just didn't play well on defense.


Everette was keepin his mind on his money and his money on his mind-

Stoop Dawg
3/20/2006, 11:59 AM
Nick:

If they don't want to play together on the court, then the coach has lost control.

Over an extended period of a couple of years, I agree. Over a single season, not so much.

Stoop Dawg
3/20/2006, 11:59 AM
Everette was keepin his mind on his money and his money on his mind-

Laid back!

Gandalf_The_Grey
3/20/2006, 12:10 PM
The thing with Everett is that he would be alot better as that guy who is hitting open jumpers created by someone else. Everett should have never been running this team.

OUstud
3/20/2006, 12:53 PM
OU basketball needs Sampson to sell this thing like Pearl did at Tennessee. If they can fill 24,000 seats at a football school in a metro far smaller than Norman/OKC, then so can we.

Stoop Dawg
3/20/2006, 01:01 PM
Tennessee has a basketball team?



;)

MojoRisen
3/20/2006, 01:02 PM
I can't believe there is really any question...

oumartin
3/20/2006, 01:03 PM
tennessee has a basketball team and to my knowledge none of them smoke weed.. I could be wrong though

MojoRisen
3/20/2006, 01:04 PM
I mean they could not afford a block of weed let alone basketball tickets.

Stoop Dawg
3/20/2006, 01:58 PM
tennessee has a basketball team and to my knowledge none of them smoke weed

Maybe that's their problem. ;)

Stoop Dawg
3/20/2006, 02:02 PM
If they can fill 24,000 seats at a football school in a metro far smaller than Norman/OKC, then so can we.

As I mentioned earlier (or maybe in another thread) I don't think it's all that fair to say "OKC Metro". It's a 45 minute drive from Edmond. That's 1:30 of drive time to watch a 2:00 game - on a Tuesday night. That's a pretty tough sell.

MojoRisen
3/20/2006, 02:09 PM
If you thought you might see something special it may be worth checking it out on occasion certainly not every Tuesday- Is norman bigger than Lawrence?