OK, fine. Tongue is off "hold."

[Frozen Sooner]

I don't like the direction of OU basketball.

There, I said it.

This year was an absolute cluster-**** of epic proportions. We were four one-point victories against cellar-dwellers from a low seed in the NIT. Don't get me wrong, a win is a win, but that's pathetic for an OU team.

I'm angry. I'm upset. I thought going in this year that we were going to be an absolute terror of a basketball team.

Here's the biggest change I've seen in the last few years-the change that's making me waver on whether I want Coach Sampson to stay or go:

Sampson used to motivate untalented kids to 20 win seasons.

Now we have 20-win seasons with players that should be able to get to that mark without any motivation whatsoever.

We're not going forward. We've regressed as a program over the last three years.

I dunno. More thoughts later. I'm at work and I can't get a proper mad-on.

[OUthunder]

Kelvin needs a new home and we need a better coach who can put asses in seats. This team was so predictable and boring to watch this year that it made American Idol entertaining.

[sooneron]

I dunno. More thoughts later. I'm at work and I can't get a proper hard-on.
:eek:

[LLoyd Dobler]

Second that. In the Tulsa World Sampson could not even admit they have underachieved. He states "if that is what you think then write that in the paper". 99% of realistic OU fans think that. Props to Dave Sittler for a truthful article. In it he states that the OU men's basketball team is the second most popular basketball team on campus.

The women will outdraw the men next year in attendance - mark it down.

I guess our seniors did go out with a bang - of epic proportions.

[CtheB]

I don't like the direction of OU basketball.

There, I said it.

This year was an absolute cluster-**** of epic proportions. We were four one-point victories against cellar-dwellers from a low seed in the NIT. Don't get me wrong, a win is a win, but that's pathetic for an OU team.

I'm angry. I'm upset. I thought going in this year that we were going to be an absolute terror of a basketball team.

Here's the biggest change I've seen in the last few years-the change that's making me waver on whether I want Coach Sampson to stay or go:

Sampson used to motivate untalented kids to 20 win seasons.

Now we have 20-win seasons with players that should be able to get to that mark without any motivation whatsoever.

We're not going forward. We've regressed as a program over the last three years.

I dunno. More thoughts later. I'm at work and I can't get a proper mad-on.

Thank you, Frozen. Well stated.

[Taxman71]

It comes down to which is more important. Winning 20 games and getting to the NCAA every year and winning a Big 12 trophy here and there or having some NIT teams and some occassional Final Four teams.

Sadly, I think Sampson is the R.C. Slocum of college basketball. Fans don't support him (largely his own fault), yet he is a consistent 20-game winner on the fringe of a championship. Is that better than having a high-paid Coach Fran coach our basketball team and running the risk of basketball's version of 77-0? Tough call.

[Rock Hard Corn Frog]

I don't like the direction of OU basketball.

There, I said it.

This year was an absolute cluster-**** of epic proportions. We were four one-point victories against cellar-dwellers from a low seed in the NIT. Don't get me wrong, a win is a win, but that's pathetic for an OU team.

I'm angry. I'm upset. I thought going in this year that we were going to be an absolute terror of a basketball team.

Here's the biggest change I've seen in the last few years-the change that's making me waver on whether I want Coach Sampson to stay or go:

Sampson used to motivate untalented kids to 20 win seasons.

Now we have 20-win seasons with players that should be able to get to that mark without any motivation whatsoever.

We're not going forward. We've regressed as a program over the last three years.

I dunno. More thoughts later. I'm at work and I can't get a proper mad-on.

I agree entirely.

Except for the mad-on bit. Frankly you scare me there...

[NormanPride]

Are these players really better than the ones we used to have? The only guy that could create his own shot was TE, and he wasn't that good at it. Taj was fire or ice, and got lost on D, and Neal was as one-dimensional as I've ever seen anyone.

I'd like to hear a counter-argument here. I want to believe we have better talent, but I just don't see it. This team was really slow...

[oumartin]

I've not seen a player on a team in 20 years be able to catch the ball in the paint with his back to the basket and jam it like Tisdale.

Thats not an argument just a statement that He was awesome!

[oumartin]

http://www.chadandkimi.com/chad/ou_room/DCP_0395.JPG

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

They just don't have an glue players, Taylor Griffin has potential down the road of being one. But this team never had a Minor, Erdmann, Najera, or a Price to help them. When OU used to go on their patented scoring draughts, it was these guys that wanted the shot to pull us out before it got too bad, so intead of 9 minute scoring draughts, we only had 2 or 3 minute draughts. This team was just no tough, they don't have a single player that was strong mentally.

[n8v_ndn]

I dunno. More thoughts later. I'm at work and I can't get a proper hard-on.


:eek:

tshirt idea for next year:


HEART, HUSTLE, HARDONS :texan:

[sooneron]

tshirt idea for next year:


HEART, HUSTLE, HARDONS :texan:
spek!

[Rock Hard Corn Frog]

Are these players really better than the ones we used to have? The only guy that could create his own shot was TE, and he wasn't that good at it. Taj was fire or ice, and got lost on D, and Neal was as one-dimensional as I've ever seen anyone.

I'd like to hear a counter-argument here. I want to believe we have better talent, but I just don't see it. This team was really slow...


I agree that the team was slow. My expectations honestly weren't as high as some. I didn't think we were a Final 4 caliber team in preseason and I thought even Elite 8 was a stretch but I thought we were Sweet 16 material and should have won at least a couple more games along the way. I thought this team had holes but it is more talented than we played down the stretch. That is the opposite of many OU teams under KS.

Taj Gray has had some of best highlights we have had since Tisdale but he has 1-2 A.D.D. moments a game that cost's a team. I'm not saying I don't appreciate what he has done but I certainly don't think he nearly reached his potential.

I don't blame all of this on KS but he is the man in charge.

Barring some serious NCAA sanctions that would cause players to leave we should at least have the personnel to go up and down the court next year. Whether we do it or not remains to be seen.

We have less talent than we did in the 80's no doubt but I think we have much more than we had in the mid-late 90's.

I'm gonna go split a 6-pack with Bomar now....

[sooneron]

I think Kelvin needs to bring in an assistant that can implement more of an up-tempo game- something of a spread - motion offense.

[BarryBnds]

I agree entirely.

So when I was saying this just a week or two ago you were calling me crazy. It sure is funny how a week can change your perspective. This team has been on a collision course like the Titanic and the iceberg since day one.

[Rock Hard Corn Frog]

So when I was saying this just a week or two ago you were calling me crazy. It sure is funny how a week can change your perspective. This team has been on a collision course like the Titanic and the iceberg since day one.


To be honest, up until a week or two ago I had never seen you post a single thing positive so I though you were just a troll. I don't know that I agree with the majority of the criticism of Sampson so I'm not professing that I doing a 180 on everything but I am plenty disappointed like most everyone else. I don't think we underachieved AS MUCH as some think but you would crazy to not acknowledge that this team didn't underachieve.

NCAA sanctions are going to ultimately going to be the biggest factor.

[Frozen Sooner]

I think Kelvin needs to bring in an assistant that can implement more of an up-tempo game- something of a spread - motion offense.

He did. Bob Hoffman. Apparently that wasn't the answer either.

[MojoRisen]

Kelvin stands to be in a position of power if we are put on probation for what some people would turn an eye too if Sampson were on the market.

We could loose our players and Samspon- If we felt like there was a probation comming down- I would think that Kelvin is going to get fired- if we don't - then I think he has another year or two before his contract is up- anybody know when his contract is up???

Kelvin is a hard nosed - competitive guy- with good moral character- I just don't like how he plays basketball.. I just don't like it and most players don't either. You know, what are you going to do-

Just a purely frustrated OU basketball fan...

[n8v_ndn]

I think the Denim Shirt mojo's gone....I tore mine off in anger here at work, then proceeded to make shot after shot against Tom 'Giant Squid' Masterson.

[handcrafted]

Kelvin "One-and-Done" Sampson. That's gonna be his legacy.

:mad:

[PrideAlum]

Originally Posted by Taxman71

Sadly, I think Sampson is the R.C. Slocum of college basketball.


No Sampson is the Mack Brown of college basketball. If he doesn't have great senior Leadership then he's pathetic. Mack Brown had Vince Young. Sampson's best teams had Eddie or a few years later Price and White. Only with players with the ability to overcome Sampson's coaching will we win.
Kelvin Must go.

[NickZeppelin]

I don't know if we'll be as good a team on defense next year but if Reynolds and James are as good as hyped we'll have a heck of an offensive team next year. If they aren't then we'll be pretty average next year.

[Taxman71]

No Sampson is the Mack Brown of college basketball. If he doesn't have great senior Leadership then he's pathetic. Mack Brown had Vince Young. Sampson's best teams had Eddie or a few years later Price and White. Only with players with the ability to overcome Sampson's coaching will we win.
Kelvin Must go.

That's not fair since Sampson has won 3 Big 12 tournament trophies and the regular season trophy last year. Omitting 2005, Mack has as many trophies as my dog. Meanwhile, R.C. did win the Big 12 back in 1998. Besides, OU has never been as hyped as the whorn football program.

[crawfish]

I agree completely, froz.

For years I defended Kelvin's seeming "underachieving". We simply didn't have talent. We didn't have players that could drive; we didn't have players with size; we didn't have big men who could score inside; we didn't have much athleticism. His teams DID win more than they should, through hard work, grit, hustle and heart. I figured that once the talent was there, his teams would be unstoppable.

However, what has happened is that the talent is here - and make no mistake about it, folks, the guys we have are athletic and talented - that sense of hard work seems to be missing. I'm starting to have my doubts that Kelvin is capable of changing his coaching style to fit this better talent.

I DO hope I have to eat these words next year.

[PrideAlum]

Originally Posted by Taxman71

OU has never been as hyped as the whorn football program.


Well what has been hyped as much as the whorn football program?;)

I think you made my point. The years of the B12 tournament championships who was on those teams? White, Price and Eddie.

[TripleOption14]

A lot of you keep saying that Kelvin has to change his style of coaching. And thats cool if you believe that. But my thought is that its not his style of coaching... its the players (or lack there of). It seems soooo BRUTALLY clear that in order for the Kelvin style of basketball to work he MUST have experienced GUARDS!!! Like i've said many a time... when your best ball handler is a small forward. Thats a GIANT of a problem. Whenever Kelvin has good guards to lean on his system works to a tee. Case and pt. the Hollis Price, Quannas White years. And just last year OU won conf. because.. thats right guard play. If he would just go get a point guard who knows how to score and get others involved and manage a game OU would be really good again. Problem is no guards wanna come to OU.

[MojoRisen]

Mcghee is better than Taj and Bookout combined- he was steller in the tourney as well-

[crawfish]

A lot of you keep saying that Kelvin has to change his style of coaching. And thats cool if you believe that. But my thought is that its not his style of coaching... its the players (or lack there of). It seems soooo BRUTALLY clear that in order for the Kelvin style of basketball to work he MUST have experienced GUARDS!!! Like i've said many a time... when your best ball handler is a small forward. Thats a GIANT of a problem. Whenever Kelvin has good guards to lean on his system works to a tee. Case and pt. the Hollis Price, Quannas White years. And just last year OU won conf. because.. thats right guard play. If he would just go get a point guard who knows how to score and get others involved and manage a game OU would be really good again. Problem is no guards wanna come to OU.

Man, it was only a few years ago when it was big men who didn't want to come to OU.

In fairness to Kelvin, he DOES have McDAA Scotty Reynolds coming in. I haven't been as excited about an incoming player as him in a LONG time, I love the reports of his fire, determination and leadership (not to mention his obvious skills and talent). He could be the guy to build a backcourt around.

In fact, that entire recruiting class has me excited. If Kelvin can't win with this class, or the class falls apart like in years past, then it might be time to reconsider our bball team's direction.

[NickZeppelin]

I don't think our guards were as quick as Kelvin likes em. But I don't think that if he had a couple guards that were quick that left last year it would help much because they weren't good defensive players. I think it all starts for Kelvin on the defensive end. I think Austin Johnson showed at times he's a good defender and hopefully he is better next year he's much better. Godbold was a spark on defense last year. He wasn't that this year for whatever reason. Neal is a good defender too.

Now we have 3 guards coming in next year in James, Reynolds, and Crocker. Crocker may redshirt. James will play. Don't know about his defense yet. Has been forced to play more of a 3 or post game in HS because of who he plays for. But he's a wing. Reynolds is supposed to be a quick point guard type. That can also score. If he didn't get hurt as a Junior he's probably shattering every Virginia state scoring record.

I don't know how good of defenders those guys are. But that will be the key to how we end the year next year. I don't care how we start it because we will be in the Preseason NIT and we'll have to play Nova(without Foye and Ray but with Sumpter) but hopefully we can turn it around to end the year and be much like Kansas this year.

[NickZeppelin]

Mcghee is better than Taj and Bookout combined- he was steller in the tourney as well-

McGhee the first season and a half or the McGhee in his last 15 games or so?

The McGhee in his first season and a half was not very good.

[TripleOption14]

Mcghee is better than Taj and Bookout combined- he was steller in the tourney as well-

McGhee was OK imo. It was Hollis and Quannas that made him look so good because they kept the pressure off of him.

[TopDawg]

Here's the biggest change I've seen in the last few years-the change that's making me waver on whether I want Coach Sampson to stay or go:

Sampson used to motivate untalented kids to 20 win seasons.

Now we have 20-win seasons with players that should be able to get to that mark without any motivation whatsoever.

We're not going forward. We've regressed as a program over the last three years.


I feel ya, but I don't necessarily agree with you. I understand what you're saying about the motivation of untalented players, but like some others in this thread, I'm not convinced that this team was all that talented. I mean, I think we had some good talent, don't get me wrong, but TE is not a point guard. And that's critical. If Stoops had to play AD at quarterback, we would still be talented, but it would be hard for us to win games because you need a your quarterback (or point guard) to be talented at playing that particular position. TE had his moments but he couldn't play consistently as a point guard and he didn't have the right basketball IQ for a pg.

And I also don't believe that we've regressed as a program over the last three years...or, at least, not going forward. I mean, yeah, three years ago we went into the tourney ranked 3rd and lost in the Elite Eight, but the following year we went to the NIT, the year after that we won the Big XII Championship and this year we finished 3rd in the Big XII. So it's not like we've gotten progressively worse each year...which is kinda what it sounds like you were trying to say with "not going forward." Granted, our tournament success has been lacking, but I feel like we're still poised to be a threat next year. I mean, by the same standards you could say that our football team has regressed as a program over the last three years, but I don't think they're headed in the wrong direction.

[Eielson]

Milwaukee Free throws: 26-32
Oklahoma Free throws: 5-8

[Frozen Sooner]

Milwaukee Free throws: 26-32
Oklahoma Free throws: 5-8

Which says more about the style of offense being played rather than the referees.

UWM drove to the basket. OU stood around outside a zone.

This is going to create a disparity in fouls.

[TopDawg]

Also, they were a lot faster than us, so we had to defend with our hands a lot.

It seemed like all of our opponents shot sky high free throw percentages when they played us.

[william_brasky]

Here's some simplicity.

Kelvin has done a good job. He's a good coach. He's had some good seasons. He's a good man.

It's up to the the University of Oklahoma to decide what direction the OU Men's Basketball Program will want to go. Will The University of Oklahoma want Kelvin Sampson to continue leading the Men's Basketball Program, or will the University want to change leadership?

Don't put this on Kelvin. Put it on the University.

The University instituted the removal of Top Dawg and the implementation of two Pony mascots. So this indicates to me that the University is not perfect and does have errors in judgment. It's not the first time. It won't be the last time.

With all that being said, BOOMER SOONER.

[picasso]

I don't know if we'll be as good a team on defense next year but if Reynolds and James are as good as hyped we'll have a heck of an offensive team next year. If they aren't then we'll be pretty average next year.
umm dude, we didn't play any defense this season.

we needed a point guard and a few players who can create and score. I don't get it. there's small colleges all over the country with more creative players.

we haven't built upon our final four team.

[MojoRisen]

I don't think our guards were as quick as Kelvin likes em. But I don't think that if he had a couple guards that were quick that left last year it would help much because they weren't good defensive players. I think it all starts for Kelvin on the defensive end. I think Austin Johnson showed at times he's a good defender and hopefully he is better next year he's much better. Godbold was a spark on defense last year. He wasn't that this year for whatever reason. Neal is a good defender too.

Now we have 3 guards coming in next year in James, Reynolds, and Crocker. Crocker may redshirt. James will play. Don't know about his defense yet. Has been forced to play more of a 3 or post game in HS because of who he plays for. But he's a wing. Reynolds is supposed to be a quick point guard type. That can also score. If he didn't get hurt as a Junior he's probably shattering every Virginia state scoring record.

I don't know how good of defenders those guys are. But that will be the key to how we end the year next year. I don't care how we start it because we will be in the Preseason NIT and we'll have to play Nova(without Foye and Ray but with Sumpter) but hopefully we can turn it around to end the year and be much like Kansas this year.

Reynolds is a great shooter- he has good ball handling skills and is a good all around player.. But I am not going to say he is ready to step up to D1 and start you know what I mean- All American yes- but the guys he is scoring and finger rolling on are 5-11 white dudes-

In all fairness- Northern VA basketball ain't Dallas or Chicago- etc. I think he is going to be really good but not a good defender by next year-

[william_brasky]

Playing man to man against UWM really didn't make much sense. We didn't match up well with their quickness.

[Frozen Sooner]

Also, they were a lot faster than us, so we had to defend with our hands a lot.

It seemed like all of our opponents shot sky high free throw percentages when they played us.

Goddamn Kelvin Sampson defenses can't defend from the foul line for ****.

[milwsport]

Speaking from a Mid-Major perspective I think some of you are selling your coach short.

BB is not like FB. You don't need to have 25-35 blue chippers to have a great team. You only need 4 to 7. That makes it much easier for your competition to catch up with you and even pass you.

That's especially true for a team like OU (and maybe for UWM next year) where you have an established line up and only one or two (or in our case zero) starting spots open. The good recruits aren't interested in coming because they don't want to wait two years to get significant minutes, so they go to a school where they can break into the starting line up in a year or even right away. (Unless your Duke or U Conn) that's why it's so hard to stay on top and it's also why you almost always see two or even three new teams in the Final Four every year.

Your coach is one of the most successful in America. He's brought you guys a final four appearance, 11 NCAA appearances, and a bunch of 20 win seasons.

Compare that to Marquette, a school used to BB excellence. Their coach hadn't been back to the NCAA since they made the Final Four three years ago and then they lost to a team that his cross town competition, UWM, beat last year, Alabama.

No one over there is calling for his head (although maybe they should given is $1.65 million salary), and your guy has been way more successful than he has.

[Frozen Sooner]

Listen, damn it, until Kelvin Sampson can coach a free throw defense I'm not sold.

Nice post and thank you for the outside perspective. We're all just a little fed up right now with the seeming lack of progress.

[NickZeppelin]

I think next year will be a frusterating start. We will probably lose games early and often. But it'll be interesting to see how the season turns around if it does. It'll be a young team. But I think as the year goes on we will like the progress. This year for whatever reason the seniors just didn't play smart and fell apart. The defense should have played better this year it did the end of last year.

[TopDawg]

I'm confused, Froz, are you just being silly and kinda weird or did you take my free throw comment as a knock on Sampson?

[Frozen Sooner]

I'm confused, Froz, are you just being silly and kinda weird or did you take my free throw comment as a knock on Sampson?

The right answer to that question is ALWAYS "silly and kinda weird."

Silly is all I have right now.

[GottaHavePride]

The thing thatr got me is it doesn't seem like we were playing any better at the end of the season than we were at the beginning. As opposed to KU, who started horribly but look like a potential Final Four team right now.

[Frozen Sooner]

The thing thatr got me is it doesn't seem like we were playing any better at the end of the season than we were at the beginning. As opposed to KU, who started horribly but look like a potential Final Four team right now.

Or even as opposed to our team last year when we started the conference 0-2 and won the whole thing.

Or that Taj Gray and Terrell Everett got WORSE over the offseason.

Or that Nate Carter went from destroying Brandon Rush in a pickup game so badly that Rush immediately dropped OU to being a 4 point a game guy.

[NickZeppelin]

I think TE was better. He just had a guy that played the co-Point as I like to call it better. If AJ were healthy I think he's better then Lavender but Lavender was a good co point to take the pressure off of TE. TE isn't a point guard. He's a 2 guard that can pass real well.

[OKC Sooner]

The fact that OU lost is on the front page of msnbc.com. What price fame?

[william_brasky]

I thought Everett was fairly solid this season.

I like Taj, but he disappointed this season. He had the potential to take games over, but stupid fouls and KS not setting him up properly on the offensive end squashed that.

This team couldn't defend that well either. It was very apparent this UWM game.

[SoonerBBall]

I thought Everett was fairly solid this season.

I like Taj, but he disappointed this season. He had the potential to take games over, but stupid fouls and KS not setting him up properly on the offensive end squashed that.

This team couldn't defend that well either. It was very apparent this UWM game.
Hold up one damn second. Kelvin Sampson didn't head-fake 3 times and go weak to the hole all season. Kelvin Sampson also didn't try to dribble in from the three point lines far too many times this season. That was Taj. I understand how some of that is on the coach, but holy ****, some of that has got to be on Taj too.

The only thing I'll give Taj is that our guards did a poor job feeding him. Significant, yes, but when he did get a good feed it was 50/50 whether he'd make a spectacular play or whether he'd head-fake then go up weak or travel.

And no, Everett was not solid all season. If he was solid all season we wouldn't be having this discussion. He lazed around and would only turn his game on when he wanted to. Watch today's game again and at the 6:00 mark in the second half you'll see a completely different player then was out on the floor the first 34 minutes.

[TripleOption14]

I think TE was better. He just had a guy that played the co-Point as I like to call it better. If AJ were healthy I think he's better then Lavender but Lavender was a good co point to take the pressure off of TE. TE isn't a point guard. He's a 2 guard that can pass real well.

You mean TE is a 3 who can pass well. Neal is your prototypical 2.

[Eielson]

Milwaukee Free throws: 26-32
Oklahoma Free throws: 5-8

Joah Tucker got away with a lot of flops though. Gray was playing really good when he got that off the ball and fouled out. I am not going to cut the call down because I didn't see it but he had four fouls so I doubt he would waste a foul on something that useless.

[william_brasky]

Hold up one damn second. Kelvin Sampson didn't head-fake 3 times and go weak to the hole all season. Kelvin Sampson also didn't try to dribble in from the three point lines far too many times this season. That was Taj. I understand how some of that is on the coach, but holy ****, some of that has got to be on Taj too.

The only thing I'll give Taj is that our guards did a poor job feeding him. Significant, yes, but when he did get a good feed it was 50/50 whether he'd make a spectacular play or whether he'd head-fake then go up weak or travel.

And no, Everett was not solid all season. If he was solid all season we wouldn't be having this discussion. He lazed around and would only turn his game on when he wanted to. Watch today's game again and at the 6:00 mark in the second half you'll see a completely different player then was out on the floor the first 34 minutes.

concerning Taj: one would think a D1 coaching staff could break a player of certain habits and get a player the ball in position where he would be most successful.

concerning Everett: I said fairly solid my friend. Everett had to pick his offensive game up in the late moments. Noone else could.

[King Crimson]

I doubt he would waste a foul on something that useless.

you haven't seen us play much have you?

Big XII teams are always going to suffer tightly officiated NCAA games. the conference has become a version of teh Big 10 of the 80's (minus the media love affair): kinda thugball.

[SoonerStormchaser]

Negspek me all you want...but it's gonna take a losing season before the basketball "gurus" at the LNC finally decide to pull their collective heads outta their asses and make the necessary changes that will finally put us in the upper echelon of basketball programs.

And no, that wasn't a blanket "Fire Kelvin" statement. I think he's a good coach...but he needs a Schmitty on the bench to put some oomph in the asses of those lazy ****s who are hyped up beyond belief coming in here, but NEVER play to their potential!

[CatfishSooner]

bad season, better next...

[tulsaoilerfan]

Wonder what we could have accomplished if so many players hadn't left in the last season? Also, was that just a fluke or will it continue in the future? Kelvin actually has been good at getting talent the last few seasons, he just can't seem to keep it for some reason.

john

[NickZeppelin]

I don't know if we would be much better with more offense. We needed more defens. McKenzie and Lavender didn't give us any defense.

[OKC-SLC]

McGhee was OK imo. It was Hollis and Quannas that made him look so good because they kept the pressure off of him.
Not that it matters, but I respectfully disagree.

McGhee was absolutely soft for 1.5 seasons he played for OU. Come the end of his Sr. year, he did play with some serious muscle. He is the biggest reason we went to the Final Four that year IMO--if memory serves, hollis and white were back the next year to get zoned to death by Syracuse.

McGhee was a player who could score with his back to the basket. Furthermore, the dude was shooting 80-something from the FT line by the tournament. Add to that the fact that he could step out and hit from 12 feet (and an occasional 3), and he really was the horse we rode thru the tournament on.

Not to take anything away from Hollis or Quannas--we don't make it to the final 4 without those guys. Just don't forget that McGhee really stepped his game up late that year.

[MojoRisen]

When I was watching- I pretty much thought he was one hell of a player- damn good and he definitely had game. Period back to the basket game.

[picasso]

he lit oSu up in GIA.

[OKC-SLC]

i've said in another thread that the two things we lacked this season were 1) a playmaker who could make a play with the game on the line, and 2) a big man whom we could just feed the ball who could score from 6 feet out as well as from the free throw line.

I'd give my left Taj for Aaron McGhee this season.

[TripleOption14]

I don't know if we would be much better with more offense. We needed more defens. McKenzie and Lavender didn't give us any defense.

Lavender was a liability on D but at least he could dribble the damn ball! Which is obviously more than all of our guards (beside TE; if you wanna call him a guard) could do this year. Plus Lavender knew how to manage a game. I think a lot of things canceled out w/ Lavender and what you were left w/ was just a simple PG. And we DEFINITELY could have used one of those this year!!

[NickZeppelin]

I don't disagree too much but still our defense!?!


The defense consistantly frusterated me more then the offense.

[MojoRisen]

We had a harder time penetrating a zone- than we gained in defense.. It was our overwhelming weakness this year and others.

I know Lavender was short- but he was quick and he pestered people... I still think he has a shot to be as good as Earl Boynkins spl??

As for AJ - I guess he was great on d when he wasn't hurt- I just didn't see him being dangerous enough on a tripple threat from the perimeter- at least not yet....

[oumartin]

okay, so why was lavender asked to leave the program?

[NickZeppelin]

Lavender left because he lost the point guard job.

[oumartin]

well if thats true I'd be suprised...
Anyone else?

[crawfish]

okay, so why was lavender asked to leave the program?

Lavender wasn't asked to leave the program. He was asked to stay...but chose to leave anyway.

Foust, McKenzie and Lavender were very close, so it's not completely surprising that when the former two had left that he felt little motivation to overcome the difficulties and stick it out.

[oumartin]

Thanks crawfish. I was listening to Hale this morning and he said he was asked to leave. if that was the case I was wondering why..

[Eielson]

you haven't seen us play much have you?

Big XII teams are always going to suffer tightly officiated NCAA games. the conference has become a version of teh Big 10 of the 80's (minus the media love affair): kinda thugball.

I have seen us play a lot I just didn't see what Taj did. Did anybody see what he did? I don't care who the officials are they don't usually call off the ball defensive fouls, especially to foul a star player out.

[crawfish]

Thanks crawfish. I was listening to Hale this morning and he said he was asked to leave. if that was the case I was wondering why..

Hmmm...it was from reports on <CENSORED> that I got the information.

Basically, he wanted to leave, but Sampson asked him to wait a few days and reconsider...which he did then left.

[RacerX]

It's the Internet and the media's fault.

Sincerely,

John Rohde

[Taxman71]

Did I mention Bill Self rawks my face off and I have a turd hanging out of my arse?

Sincerely,
John Rohde

[OUthunder]

What the men's basketball program at OU needs is a coach who knows how to party.

BOB HUGGINS beyonces!











:D

[MojoRisen]

[QUOTE=OUthunder]What the men's basketball program at OU needs is a coach who knows how to party.

BOB HUGGINS beyonces!


If huggins didn't run the risk of being busted with a prostitute or having a heart attack or both- I would say hell ya- he is actually a hell of a recruiter and can make solid in game adjustments, plays hard core 94 feet defense and rebounds...

I am pretty sure he handed it to Kelvin a couple of times.

Cinci sold out ever game- and have a competitive school Xavier 4 miles away. 13K+ a game.

I like Huggins personally but I heard from the big o- that he is a whore around town and drinks his arse off until wee hours in the morning.

[oumartin]

I like Huggins personally but I heard from the big o- that he is a whore around town and drinks his arse off until wee hours in the morning.

so, they got a coach like that up at stillwater and they love him..

[CtheB]

What the men's basketball program at OU needs is a coach who knows how to party.

BOB HUGGINS beyonces! :D


Dude, don't fool yourself. Eustachy could drink Huggins under the table!

[snp]

Lavender was a liability on D but at least he could dribble the damn ball! Which is obviously more than all of our guards (beside TE; if you wanna call him a guard) could do this year. Plus Lavender knew how to manage a game. I think a lot of things canceled out w/ Lavender and what you were left w/ was just a simple PG. And we DEFINITELY could have used one of those this year!!

Why do you keep saying TE is not a guard? Because he rebounds? He doesn't post up, he prefers to drive or shoot 3's, and he guards guards.

[Stoop Dawg]

The real problem with this years team is that the press told all the fans that they were a top 5 team when they weren't.

[CtheB]

Let's see that now makes:

1.) Taj Gray
2.) Injuries
3.) TE's turnovers
4.) The crowd-my personal favorite
5.) No leadership

and now

6.) the media.

A veritable plethora of causes for the teams lackluster performance.

[Big Red Ron]

Let's see that now makes:

1.) Taj Gray
2.) Injuries
3.) TE's turnovers
4.) The crowd-my personal favorite
5.) No leadership

and now

6.) the media.

A veritable plethora of causes for the teams lackluster performance.Kelvin's supporters are sure sounding a lot like Mack's. I hope if Kelvin stays he can right the ship!

[RacerX]

Let's see that now makes:

1.) Taj Gray
2.) Injuries
3.) TE's turnovers
4.) The crowd-my personal favorite
5.) No leadership

and now

6.) the media.

A veritable plethora of causes for the teams lackluster performance.

You left out the Internet. John Rohde blames the media and the Internet.

[CtheB]

Big difference, Ron. Mack recruits kids and adapts the system to fit the talent in hand. Apples and Chrissy were drop back passers, and VY was mobile, so he changes the offense to suite VY's talents.

Personally, I don't think it would matter if we had five NBA lotts at Oklahoma, we'd still be playing the same brand of ball.

Which makes me want to refresh some statistics on everyone. In KS' firs six seasons at OU, the leading scorer averaged 20+ per game. Since 1999, we haven't had anyone average 20 a game, and in only two instances did we have a player average more than 18 per game, and in two years our leading scorer averaged less than 15 per game.

Is our talent better now than it was in 1999? I say it is, and if it is, then Kelvin is still spreading the same 65 points per game over more players.

[NickZeppelin]

The only thing this team really lacked that other teams didn't under Sampson was defense. We couldn't play that tenatious defense Kelvin typically plays. And that defense also has lead to a lot of good offense in the past.

[Stoop Dawg]

I hope if Kelvin stays he can right the ship!

I hope if Kelvin leaves that OU can get a coach who is better.

[Stoop Dawg]

A veritable plethora of causes for the teams lackluster performance.

You really think this team was top 5 and that coaching is what prevented it from happening? If so, you are certainly justified in wanting Kelvin to leave.

[CtheB]

Stoop...trust me here, there was Oklahoma basketball before Mr. Subregional, and there will be Oklahoma basketball after Mr. Subregional. Each time we've needed to go find a coach, Joe C has always done a great job in finding someone. It may not be a name, but it will be a good coach. Remember, KS was a nobody when he came here.

[CtheB]

You really think this team was top 5 and that coaching is what prevented it from happening? If so, you are certainly justified in wanting Kelvin to leave.

Stoop, in hindsight, no, this wasn't a top 5 team, and my beef with KS started long before 2005-2006.

[CtheB]

The only thing this team really lacked that other teams didn't under Sampson was defense. We couldn't play that tenatious defense Kelvin typically plays. And that defense also has lead to a lot of good offense in the past.

Its the "square peg, round hole" analogy. Great coaches adjust to the talent in their hand. KS doesn't adjust, so draw your own conclusions.

[Stoop Dawg]

Stoop, in hindsight, no, this wasn't a top 5 team, and my beef with KS started long before 2005-2006.

So the media did set unrealistic expectations. And the fans are upset because they weren't met.

I'm not trying to make excuses, just pointing out a fact. There are a lot of people who think OU was supposed to contend for a NC in football last year too. They buy what the media sells, and get upset with the wrong people when it doesn't pan out. Not saying you are one of those, but they are out there. Lots of 'em.

[NickZeppelin]

Its the "square peg, round hole" analogy. Great coaches adjust to the talent in their hand. KS doesn't adjust, so draw your own conclusions.

That could be true. Or his players just didn't have the want to on defense. Talent doesn't make a good defense alone. The end of last year these same guys basically except for a few newcomers played great defense to turn around what was about to be a bad year last year. Then this year they just didn't play D a lot of the season. I don't know who is to fault.

[Stoop Dawg]

Stoop...trust me here, there was Oklahoma basketball before Mr. Subregional, and there will be Oklahoma basketball after Mr. Subregional. Each time we've needed to go find a coach, Joe C has always done a great job in finding someone. It may not be a name, but it will be a good coach. Remember, KS was a nobody when he came here.

Check out the winning percentage by decade on SoonerStats.com. It's interesting. Prior to Billy Tubbs we were lucky to win 60% of our games. OU simply doesn't have much bball history. Nothing wrong with trying to change that, but I'm not sure we can recruit high caliber coaches - especially with football looming large over their head. Any coach with an ego is going to choose Duke, KU, UNC, or some other school that sucks at football.

[CtheB]

Or, they're going to say....gee, they pay their head basketball coach $800K and never give one consideration to the football program.


You can't get coach K here, or Roy Williams, or any of the so-called deans of basketball, but you sure can find a great coach at one of the 320+ schools playing D1 basketball, and get the same results, for half the price we pay this guy.

[NickZeppelin]

From 1947-1982 we had 2 NIT appearances and 1 NCAA Appearance.

Since 1983 we've gone to a postseason tourney every year.

[CtheB]

So the media did set unrealistic expectations. And the fans are upset because they weren't met.

I'm not trying to make excuses, just pointing out a fact. There are a lot of people who think OU was supposed to contend for a NC in football last year too. They buy what the media sells, and get upset with the wrong people when it doesn't pan out. Not saying you are one of those, but they are out there. Lots of 'em.

I understand your point, Stoop, and I didn't buy the preseason hype on the FB team because of the massive losses from the year before; however, this basketball team returned pretty much intact, and had a couple of studs coming back after the experimental year moving into D1 from JUCO. Was I wrong in believing what many said on these boards about Nate Carter, Chris Walker, and the rest? Maybe so. But I based it on the fact that, before the season, I heard a head coach embrace the lofty expectations of this team, when normally he's the first one to insult it. So please don't tell me that :kelvin: didn't have the same expectations the media did. And he sees them every day.

[NickZeppelin]

Our team deserved the high expectations this year for what they did last year. They were the best team later in the year of anyone in the conference. And they did it with defense and transition game from that defense. This year we didn't have it but it looked on paper like we would. Games aren't played on paper.

[oumartin]

Nick, you just prove our point while trying to justify Kelvin being coach.
30 freakin' years of post season play and no championship.. its time that changed.

[william_brasky]

I hope if Kelvin leaves that OU can get a coach who is better.

That would be the challenge. Look, we have great facilities and money to spend. Also, the name University of Oklahoma. Who wouldn't want that situation? It would be kinda tough considering they'd be following a coach with a great record, but all the potential is there for a coach to have an outstanding program. Turgeon @ WSU, Pelphrey @ S. Alabama. That's the type of coach I'd be looking at. Young, hungry, played in great college programs, gym rats as players, recent success at their respective programs. I would hope they wouldn't bring in any recycled coaches. Just my thoughts.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

I bet Nebraska is glad they gave up on Tom Osbourne...I mean he couldn't beat Switzer...

[CtheB]

I bet Nebraska is glad they gave up on Tom Osbourne...I mean he couldn't beat Switzer...

Bad comparison. Osborne and Kelvin have very little in common.

[Rock Hard Corn Frog]

In all fairness- Northern VA basketball ain't Dallas or Chicago- etc. I think he is going to be really good but not a good defender by next year-


That's silly. Look at some of the teams that Herndon has played. 4 or 5 games were against teams in the top 20 in the country. Chicago certainly has stellar basketball but I don't think you can say Dallas b-ball is any better than the DC area. Regardless, Scottie has played plenty of top notch competition.

[MojoRisen]

Washington DC- is not northern va- if Scottie is putting up 30+ on someone I could guard and beat to the hole after a 6 pack I am not impressed. I say this becuase it is the truth- chill man,

[Rock Hard Corn Frog]

Well I know he isn't playing top teams in conference or in their immediate area but they have played some real good teams. I don't think there is anyone in the Dallas area as good as Dematha, Montrose Christian or Oak Hill Academy. Memphis Ridgeway is a tough team as well.

He won't be scoring 30 at game at OU but I don't think he will have trouble adjusting.

[MojoRisen]

You would be surprised, those schools get a lot of hype and they do recruit local talent- but on a whole- they are not nearly as competitive. Scottie is really good- but the competition he has played for 95% of his highschool career is not competitive to the point that he would have to make adjustments- I hope that makes sense.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

How is Tom Osbourne a bad example...he was a head coach at one of the most prestigious programs in all the country. A place where the pressure is very high. Despite the fact that Tom was at this place they stuck with him for almost 20 some odd years before Nebraska was able to finally win a National Championship. Tom had the natural advantage of Nebraska's history and prestige, still took him long to accomplish the title. Sampson is a coach for a team that has little history and little prestige. I am just so scared that we are going to run off Sampson because I genuinely believe he loves coaching here and is a decent guy. I think he has just had a few bad years(bad in the sense that we weren't even close to being a Big 12 Championship team, despite that we were in that race even up until 2 weeks before the end of the season) because he hasn't had a leader show up. This team didn't have a Najera, Price, Erdmann, etc. al. This team had all the glue players just not the part that needed glued. If we had a take charge, attacking style player, Terrell Everett is able to go to open spaces and hit 3's, Taj has more time to work and doesn't have to rush because of double teams, Bookout would have been that scrappy guy who gets you extra possesions. I honestly think if Lavender stays, he could have been that aggressive leader. I think Taylor Griffin is the next great OU leader who won't shy away from physicality or big shots.

[Stoop Dawg]

I understand your point, Stoop, and I didn't buy the preseason hype on the FB team because of the massive losses from the year before; however, this basketball team returned pretty much intact, and had a couple of studs coming back after the experimental year moving into D1 from JUCO. Was I wrong in believing what many said on these boards about Nate Carter, Chris Walker, and the rest? Maybe so. But I based it on the fact that, before the season, I heard a head coach embrace the lofty expectations of this team, when normally he's the first one to insult it. So please don't tell me that :kelvin: didn't have the same expectations the media did. And he sees them every day.

If the coach is setting high expectations or you have them based on your own observations, then I have no problem with you being disappointed. I happen to disagree, but I'm not a "super fan" when it comes to bball (I am for football - go figure ;) ).

I do want OU to do well in bball. I do want OU to win championships. I don't really care if it's Kelvin Sampson that does it or some hot-shot or some no-name. However, my expectations are much lower that some of the other people around here - for reasons stated in the various threads.

I also don't like to see someone unjustly villified (IMO) for doing a darn good job. I don't mind people saying "Let's get a coach that we believe can win it all", but I don't like comments like "Kelvin is a bad/average/mediocre coach" - because it's simply not true. He's a very good coach, who has never won a NC. There are many such coaches around the country in many different sports. I'm also a little disappointed that only 3 years after a Final Four run so many people are ready to let him go. I don't think that's fair. But, alas, life is not always fair. :)

[Stoop Dawg]

I think Taylor Griffin is the next great OU leader who won't shy away from physicality or big shots.

I agree with all of your post. I also like the looks of Taylor Griffin.

[CtheB]

[QUOTE=Gandalf_The_Grey]Despite the fact that Tom was at this place they stuck with him for almost 20 some odd years before Nebraska was able to finally win a National Championship. Tom had the natural advantage of Nebraska's history and prestige, still took him long to accomplish the title. Sampson is a coach for a team that has little history and little prestige. [QUOTE]

This is why its a bad example. Osborne beat everyone except that one coach, being Switzer. Real similar to Mack Brown and Bob Stoops. If you want to make a comparison, compare Kelvin to Bill Snyder. The difference between these two is that Kelvin has been able to amass enough talent within the program to compete, which Snyder couldn't for a long time. As Snyder started to get talent, they started to improve. It seems like as Kelvin starts to amass talent, they regress.

You make some great points, so I don't disagree with you completely. I still maintain that something is not clicking within the basketball program which is causing all of the bad leadership, underachievement, players leaving and sparse crowds, that makes me think change is in order. You can keep patience with what's going on, and hope the ship turns, but my opinion, and I'm not saying its right, becauseeveryone brings up good points on both sides, is that Kelvin has maximized the Oklahoma basketball program under his watch, and change is necessary. In the state of the Big 12, where it appears a lot of teams are getting better, you don't want to be stagnate.

[TopDawg]

If the coach is setting high expectations ...

But, alas, life is not always fair. :)

Nice post, S-Dawg.

[Rock Hard Corn Frog]

You would be surprised, those schools get a lot of hype and they do recruit local talent- but on a whole- they are not nearly as competitive. Scottie is really good- but the competition he has played for 95% of his highschool career is not competitive to the point that he would have to make adjustments- I hope that makes sense.


Yeah, that makes sense.

I do think Scottie will be the least of our worries next year. I think between him and Austin Johnson we will be in good shape at PG.




Also as far as the coaching comparison I think it doesn't fit exactly but comparing Sampson to Gibbs might be more appropriate. Both followed coaching legends (Barry by any standard, Billy by OU hoops standards) and have been generally successful. KS much more so because he has some titles and on at least one occaision was close to a NC but both had winning programs.

In the end we couldn't run Gibbs out of town fast enough and despite having a top program our next 2 coaches were Schnellenblake. Yes, we did finally get Stoops, we were fortunate there though I think OU football is generally the more pretty girl to ask to the dance. Again I think Sampson is a step or two up from Gibbs but it is my concern that if some people get their way and KS is run out of town that we get at best another Gibbs and at worst another Schnellenblake. Right now if I'm a coach looking to move up to the next level, 19 wins at MU or KSU makes me a hero, 19 wins at OU gets me fired.

[MojoRisen]

I don't buy it- Money talks & coaching basketball is pretty straight forward compared to having to retool over 80 players.