Let the excuses begin....

[imjebus]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11627394/

That is all.... :D

[sanantoniosooner]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11627394/

That is all.... :D
It was an accidental neg.

How's that for an excuse?:D

[Hatfield]

I think it is disgusting and unfortunately par for the course.

with that said this shouldn't be viewed as a "gotcha" by the left since at the end of the day the incompetence of the admin cost american lives.

[JohnnyMack]

I was gonna post that last night, but figured the Neo-cons would say I was looking for any excuse to pile on W. So I ate some Rice Krispies instead.

[KABOOKIE]

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, a critic of the administration’s Katrina response, said, “You know, from this tape it looks like everybody was fully aware.”

:rolleyes:

[jk the sooner fan]

ok, you want the other side......here you go

he got this briefing exactly one day before the hurricane hit, what exactly was he supposed to do?

did you see the evacuation from Houston for Rita? it was a nightmare....he was told the levee's COULD OR COULD NOT break......they didnt know for sure

if he had this briefing a week before, and did nothing, then yeah.....but one day?

he said "we're fully prepared"....ok, well that turned out to be not so accurate....but when you've got a Cat 5 hurricane barreling down your sights, there really isnt much you can do about it

[TexasLidig8r]

Since W CAUSED the hurricane to wipe out the evilness of Nawlins, of course, he knew about it.

What did you expect him to do.. try to stop the very act of nature he caused? :rolleyes:

[BeetDigger]

Ray Nagins is the LAST guy who should be casting stones. His wonderful police department, for example, did a real bang up job down there.

[Hatfield]

it is true that you can't do a whole lot about the storm, however the issue is the stationing of people for a rapid response to the devestation you know is coming. The levees didn't break till days after the storm. How long were people in the superdome......

look it is bad...historically bad. They knew more about it than they admitted. (which is par for the course)...and that is what everyone is going to latch onto in the new america that feels someone has to be blamed for every damn thing.

bad stuff happens which is out of the control of us humans, however the people affected by this horrible storm deserved better. And had the admin been upfront with what they knew, and had bush not been out on a photo op tour playing the guitar with second rate country stars he wouldn't face the brunt of the storm that is surely headed his way.

[Hatfield]

I also hate the fact that when talking about katrina all you hear is about NOLA...when it hit so much more.

[jk the sooner fan]

this is just sort of like a blinding flash of the obvious, everybody's responding to this like its some huge secret that the levee's were an issue....hell CNN was telling everybody the levee's might break, the army corps of engineers too

so now we're supposed to go "AH HAAAAA" the smoking gun...???? wtf people....

its obvious the government thought they were prepared, when they werent, and that they thought they could handle a hurricane of this magnitude.....but mother nature being the force that it is, reminded man how little in charge of things they are

[OUinFLA]

Isnt there some way we can blame a Democrat for this?

Or better yet, can't we blame Osama?

[critical_phil]

with that said this shouldn't be viewed as a "gotcha" by the left since at the end of the day the incompetence of the admin cost lives of people that thought living below sea level was a good idea.


hat and i have been in agreement a lot lately.......

[jk the sooner fan]

the levees didnt break till "days" after the storm?

i dont think thats correct.....i think it broke the very next day after the major storm had passed.....DAY yes, DAYS no

i could be wrong, but i dont think so....my boss's mother lost her house down in that area

[Sooner in Tampa]

Bush knew that a hurricane was coming and didn't tell anyone...that bastige!!!

[OklahomaTuba]

Not much of a warning, since they never mention a word about the levies being breached, just water going over them.


One of the valleys here in Lake Pontchartrain, we've got on our forecast track, if it maintains its intensity: about 12 1/2 feet of storm surge in the lake. The big question is going to be: will that top some of the levies? And the currrent track and the forecast we have now suggests there will be minimal flooding in the city of New Orleans itself, but we're -- we've always said that the storm surge model is only accurate within 20 percent.
If that track were to deviate just a little bit to the west, it would -- it makes all the difference in the world. I do expect that there will be some of the levies over top even out here in the western portions where the airport is. We've got valleys that can't overtop some of the levies.

The problem we're going to have here -- remember, the winds go counterclockwise around the center of the hurricane. So if the really strong winds clip Lake Pontchartrain, that's going to pile some of that water from Lake Pontchartrain over on the south side of the lake. I don't think any model can tell you with any confidence right now whether the levies will be topped or not, but that's obviously a very, very grave concern.

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/katrinatranscript0828partia.pdf


Of course, never mind the idiot Gov of LA Blanco and the mayor of chocolate city himself didn't do ****.

http://www.coverups.com/photos-media/neworleans-buses.jpg

[Hatfield]

Isnt there some way we can blame a Democrat for this?

Or better yet, can't we blame Osama?

isn't nagin a dem? he definately gets to shoulder some of the blame.

[JohnnyMack]

If you're a neo-con, or a W fan, or a Dallas livin' republican who will support the administration regardless, can you see how some might see this video as a tad bit damning? I'm not trying to point blame, just trying to see if you get where people are coming from?

[JohnnyMack]

It took Tuba almost 30 minutes to get the bus picture posted. You're slippin'!

[OklahomaTuba]

isn't nagin a dem? he definately gets to shoulder some of the blame.

Nagin. Heh.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20060228/i/r4176894748.jpg

I wonder if he is enjoying being a resident of Dallas?

[OklahomaTuba]

If you're a neo-con, or a W fan, or a Dallas livin' republican who will support the administration regardless, can you see how some might see this video as a tad bit damning? I'm not trying to point blame, just trying to see if you get where people are coming from?

How is it damning?

They said nothing about levies being breached. And The Gov said everything was fine.

[Hatfield]

http://insidetheusa.net/images/blogs/bush-guitar.jpg

[Hatfield]

and I must say TUba you have outdone yourself with your avatar. Nice work.

[OklahomaTuba]

It took Tuba almost 30 minutes to get the bus picture posted. You're slippin'!Should have taken NOLA that long to start the buses.

[jk the sooner fan]

If you're a neo-con, or a W fan, or a Dallas livin' republican who will support the administration regardless, can you see how some might see this video as a tad bit damning? I'm not trying to point blame, just trying to see if you get where people are coming from?

yes of course its easy to see, because there are so many lemmings in this country that rely solely on news soundbites for their information

rather than actually reading the entire story and coming to a conclusion on their own

its easy to see why they are coming from where they are....

[imjebus]

Uhhhh gotcha....:rolleyes:

I know you can't control nature but you sure as hell can prepare for it and respond in a way that can save lives. Alot of lives in this case could have been saved with the proper preparation and response. Obviously the preparation was not good enough as well as the response to this disaster.

[OklahomaTuba]

Uhhhh gotcha....:rolleyes:

I know you can't control nature but you sure as hell can prepare for it and respond in a way that can save lives. Alot of lives in this case could have been saved with the proper preparation and response. Obviously the preparation was not good enough as well as the response to this disaster.

Agreed.

Like actually executing a plan to get people evacuated??

Obviously that was Bush's fault. But then again, he did just want to kill black people!

[KABOOKIE]

Well, if you're a liberal, some California slacky or, a gov't teat feeding no good then yes I can see where you people would feel like the Gov't didn't go out of it's way to fully understand what the outcome of this possible disaster would be.

I can't wait until the big earthquake hits out west and the libz get ****ed because it takes more than 3 days to re-mail their welfare check..

[JohnnyMack]

Systemic failures.

From the local level of government all the way to the White House.

[imjebus]

How is it damning?

They said nothing about levies being breached. And The Gov said everything was fine.

"A top hurricane expert voiced “grave concerns” about the levees and then-Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Michael Brown told the president and Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff that he feared there weren’t enough disaster teams to help evacuees at the Superdome."

"White House deputy chief of staff Joe Hagin, Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco and Brown discussed fears of a levee breach the day the storm hit."
“I talked to the president twice today, once in Crawford and then again on Air Force One,” Brown said. “He’s obviously watching the television a lot, and he had some questions about the Dome, he’s asking questions about reports of breaches.”

[jk the sooner fan]

Uhhhh gotcha....:rolleyes:

I know you can't control nature but you sure as hell can prepare for it and respond in a way that can save lives. Alot of lives in this case could have been saved with the proper preparation and response. Obviously the preparation was not good enough as well as the response to this disaster.

in prinicple i agree with you, however i dont think FEMA had seen a storm of this magnitude in an area that was under sea level before

remember the year before, 4 hurricanes hit florida within a month and FEMA handled it fine

where do you prestage rescue equipment for a hurricane that on the radar is as big as the state its about to hit? if you want it to be useful in your efforts, you have to prestage it outside the danger area....so once the storm is gone, you start moving in, but the damn place is flooded and armed looters are shooting at rescue personnel

certainly even you can see that this was not a normal situation and outside the normal scope of hurricane relief

[Sooner in Tampa]

Agreed.

Like actually executing a plan to get people evacuated??

Obviously that was Bush's fault. But then again, he did just want to kill black people!Yeah...it is pretty stupid to have a plan for a city that is below sea level to have a plan to evacuate for storms. :eek: Why in the hell didn't GWB go and sit with Nagin and the city officals and hold their hands to ensure that there was a plan...damn him.

[imjebus]

Systemic failures.

From the local level of government all the way to the White House.


Exactly, I'm not blaming one person. But for the White House to claim they didn't have any fault in this is ridiculous..

[jk the sooner fan]

Systemic failures.

From the local level of government all the way to the White House.

yes, absolutely.

[jk the sooner fan]

Exactly, I'm not blaming one person. But for the White House to claim they didn't have any fault in this is ridiculous..

Bush has taken responsibility for the failures.....publicly

i suppose you just tuned that out

[Sooner in Tampa]

Exactly, I'm not blaming one person. But for the White House to claim they didn't have any fault in this is ridiculous..WRONG...another lie...I am sure that GWB stepped to the podium and admitted mistakes!!!! Let's try and stick with pure spectulation and monday morning QB'ing and not stoop to actually telling flat out lies.

[imjebus]

in prinicple i agree with you, however i dont think FEMA had seen a storm of this magnitude in an area that was under sea level before

remember the year before, 4 hurricanes hit florida within a month and FEMA handled it fine

where do you prestage rescue equipment for a hurricane that on the radar is as big as the state its about to hit? if you want it to be useful in your efforts, you have to prestage it outside the danger area....so once the storm is gone, you start moving in, but the damn place is flooded and armed looters are shooting at rescue personnel

certainly even you can see that this was not a normal situation and outside the normal scope of hurricane relief

I agree it was not a normal situation, But it still should have been handled better.

[OklahomaTuba]

"A top hurricane expert voiced “grave concerns” about the levees and then-Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Michael Brown told the president and Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff that he feared there weren’t enough disaster teams to help evacuees at the Superdome."

"White House deputy chief of staff Joe Hagin, Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco and Brown discussed fears of a levee breach the day the storm hit."
“I talked to the president twice today, once in Crawford and then again on Air Force One,” Brown said. “He’s obviously watching the television a lot, and he had some questions about the Dome, he’s asking questions about reports of breaches.”

They voiced concerns about about the levies, but of water going over them to Bush, not breaching.

[jk the sooner fan]

Exactly, I'm not blaming one person. But for the White House to claim they didn't have any fault in this is ridiculous..

this is a perfect example.....this is not even what the video tape is about

he was told during the briefing that they were concerned the levee's COULD break

not WILL break...he had been told that they might hold, they might not

he then publicly said "i didnt THINK they would break"

now i'm just guessing, but the last thing you want hours before a storm like this, when there's little else you can do, is for the President to make a statement that would do nothing but cause major panic

he put a positive spin on it, he gambled and lost....

[OklahomaTuba]

And if the city and state were so worried, why didn't they move the buses?

Or did they go sitzpinkler?

[OklahomaTuba]

this is a perfect example.....this is not even what the video tape is about

he was told during the briefing that they were concerned the levee's COULD break

not WILL break...he had been told that they might hold, they might not

he then publicly said "i didnt THINK they would break"

now i'm just guessing, but the last thing you want hours before a storm like this, when there's little else you can do, is for the President to make a statement that would do nothing but cause major panic

he put a positive spin on it, he gambled and lost....

Oh my JK, you are causing the blame bush for everything that ever happened and ever will in the history of the universe crowd headches with your logic and reason.

[imjebus]

WRONG...another lie...I am sure that GWB stepped to the podium and admitted mistakes!!!! Let's try and stick with pure spectulation and monday morning QB'ing and not stoop to actually telling flat out lies.

No speculation, it's actually written transcripts and video footage that shows his lack of action. Your as bad as Tuba, "the democrats put herpe's in my" My god man....:rolleyes:

[jk the sooner fan]

i'll make it simple for you jebus, since the fall out of katrina, Bush has publicly accepted the blame for the FEMA failures

do a google search for it, you'll find it

[imjebus]

Agreed.

Like actually executing a plan to get people evacuated??

Obviously that was Bush's fault. But then again, he did just want to kill black people!

Now why would Bush want to kill black people... Thats just crazy talk.. :rolleyes:

[OklahomaTuba]

No speculation, it's actually written transcripts and video footage that shows his lack of action. Your as bad as Tuba, "the democrats put herpe's in my" My god man....:rolleyes:

This is just getting sad man. Get over trying to blame bush for everything.

[OklahomaTuba]

Now why would Bush want to kill black people... Thats just crazy talk.. :rolleyes:

Well, you will have to ask:

Kanye West
The "Rev" Al Sharpton
Jesse Jackson
Sean Penn
Oprah
Cindy Sheehan

And most of the other liberal nuts out there that said as much.

[OklahomaTuba]

BTW, I wonder if the imperialistic Neo-Cons are still "occupying" New Orleans these days??

[OklahomaTuba]

And perhaps, Just Perhaps, Katrina wasn't the huge *** failure the libz so desperatly want to make it out to be???


In fact, the response to Hurricane Katrina was by far the largest--and fastest-rescue effort in U.S. history, with nearly 100,000 emergency personnel arriving on the scene within three days of the storm's landfall.
Dozens of National Guard and Coast Guard helicopters flew rescue operations that first day--some just 2 hours after Katrina hit the coast. Hoistless Army helicopters improvised rescues, carefully hovering on rooftops to pick up survivors. On the ground, "guardsmen had to chop their way through, moving trees and recreating roadways," says Jack Harrison of the National Guard. By the end of the week, 50,000 National Guard troops in the Gulf Coast region had saved 17,000 people; 4000 Coast Guard personnel saved more than 33,000.

These units had help from local, state and national responders, including five helicopters from the Navy ship Bataan and choppers from the Air Force and police. The Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries dispatched 250 agents in boats. The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), state police and sheriffs' departments launched rescue flotillas. By Wednesday morning, volunteers and national teams joined the effort, including eight units from California's Swift Water Rescue. By Sept. 8, the waterborne operation had rescued 20,000.

While the press focused on FEMA's shortcomings, this broad array of local, state and national responders pulled off an extraordinary success--especially given the huge area devastated by the storm. Computer simulations of a Katrina-strength hurricane had estimated a worst-case-scenario death toll of more than 60,000 people in Louisiana. The actual number was 1077 in that state.


http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2315076.html

Damn you facts. Gutting the liberal argument time and time again.

[mdklatt]

If you're a neo-con, or a W fan, or a Dallas livin' republican who will support the administration regardless, can you see how some might see this video as a tad bit damning?

I'm none of the above, and I didn't actually watch the video, but I still have to say, "So what?" So, the video basically shows that Bush was briefed about the possibilities of what Katrina might do? Anybody who turned on a TV for a week prior to landfall knew what Katrina might do. If everybody knew how ill-prepared the government was, why wasn't anybody saying anything before the hurricane hit? It's real easy to say "I told you so" after the fact. There is plenty of blame for everybody involved in this situation. Bush's biggest mistake was appointing that ****wit Brown to FEMA director in the first place.

[imjebus]

This is just getting sad man. Get over trying to blame bush for everything.


Nope it's Bush's fault. He is the reason for all things bad in this world. It was he that gave me a bad taco at Taco bell.... Son of a B*tch:mad:

"George W. Bush put aids in my taco"

:rolleyes:

[Sooner in Tampa]

No speculation, it's actually written transcripts and video footage that shows his lack of action. Your as bad as Tuba, "the democrats put herpe's in my" My god man....:rolleyes:Get your ****in head out of the sand...Bush has stood in front of the nation and said that he takes blame for the problems in NO...I am sure that you missed it...you couldn't be that stupid to have heard it and then try and deny it.
















Well....maybe.

[imjebus]

Get your ****in head out of the sand...Bush has stood in front of the nation and said that he takes blame for the problems in NO...I am sure that you missed it...you couldn't be that stupid to have heard it and then try and deny it.





Well....maybe.

So are you saying it was his fault? I thought you guys all said it wasn't his fault. If he is taking the blame then that would mean he is admitting some fault. So which is it?

[jk the sooner fan]

I'm none of the above, and I didn't actually watch the video, but I still have to say, "So what?" So, the video basically shows that Bush was briefed about the possibilities of what Katrina might do? Anybody who turned on a TV for a week prior to landfall knew what Katrina might do. If everybody knew how ill-prepared the government was, why wasn't anybody saying anything before the hurricane hit? It's real easy to say "I told you so" after the fact. There is plenty of blame for everybody involved in this situation. Bush's biggest mistake was appointing that ****wit Brown to FEMA director in the first place.

couldnt have said it better......spek and stuff

[imjebus]

Whoever sent me the neg spek with this comment:

"you sir are an @sshole, quite trolling"....

I will quite trolling.... lol
I can't stop being an @sshole though....

[mdklatt]

And perhaps, Just Perhaps, Katrina wasn't the huge *** failure the libz so desperatly want to make it out to be???

Are you serious?! Katrina was a ****-up at all levels of government. To deny this is to be as delusional as anything any left-wing nut has ever said.


In fact, the response to Hurricane Katrina was by far the largest--and fastest-rescue effort in U.S. history, with nearly 100,000 emergency personnel arriving on the scene within three days of the storm's landfall.


But that still wasn't enough was it? More could have obviously been done, as your Favorite Picture EVAR proves. Does it really matter whose fault it was? I guess the Bush apologists like you don't expect anything to be done differently in the future (unless the president is a Democrat).



Computer simulations of a Katrina-strength hurricane had estimated a worst-case-scenario death toll of more than 60,000 people in Louisiana. The actual number was 1077 in that state.


When were these simulations done? What is a "Katrina-strength" hurricane--its maximum strength or the strength at landfall? Katrina was not the hypothetical worst-case storm for New Orleans. If we take that 60,000 number at face value, Mayor Nagin and the LA governor are the real heroes because they saved almost 59,000 lives by ordering mandatory evacuations when they did.

[achiro]

I'm none of the above, and I didn't actually watch the video, but I still have to say, "So what?" So, the video basically shows that Bush was briefed about the possibilities of what Katrina might do? Anybody who turned on a TV for a week prior to landfall knew what Katrina might do. If everybody knew how ill-prepared the government was, why wasn't anybody saying anything before the hurricane hit? It's real easy to say "I told you so" after the fact. There is plenty of blame for everybody involved in this situation. Bush's biggest mistake was appointing that ****wit Brown to FEMA director in the first place.

Repeat just in case you missed this post!
Does anyone remember the weather service email that was floating around the day before that basically said that all structures would be flattened and people tat stayed in he area would be in grave danger?
I don't blame Bush at all. I blame the dumb ****s that decided to stay. Sitting around waiting on the government to take care of them. Their "entitlement attitudes" are what got them killed. I have zero sympathy for those people that stayed(my brother's grandma dies in her home)...ZERO!

[mdklatt]

(my brother's grandma dies in her home)

Wouldn't that make her your grandma, too? :confused:

[Sooner in Tampa]

So are you saying it was his fault? I thought you guys all said it wasn't his fault. If he is taking the blame then that would mean he is admitting some fault. So which is it?I know this is a fast moving conversation, but stay with us here...NOONE on this board is saying the the White House is without blame...just that the White House is not to blame for the MAJORITY of the problems.

[imjebus]

I know this is a fast moving conversation, but stay with us here...NOONE on this board is saying the the White House is without blame...just that the White House is not to blame for the MAJORITY of the problems.

Did I say they were to blame for the MAJORITY of the problems? The only thing I ever said about the White House is that they failed to prepare and then to act in a timely manner. That goes all the way down to the individual level. The individual is responsible for getting out of the way of danger and their were alot of people that just refused to leave.

[mdklatt]

NOONE on this board is saying the the White House is without blame

Tuba might be, I'm not sure. :D

[1stTimeCaller]

If President Bush focks up one more time, I'm not voting for him again.

[mdklatt]

The only thing I ever said about the White House is that they failed to prepare and then to act in a timely manner.

Of course we know that now. Would any other administration have done things differently given the information they had? Who knows. More importantly, who cares? Both sides need to quit playing the blame game about whose fault it was and concentrate on fixing the damn problems so they won't happen again.

[JohnnyMack]

If President Bush focks up one more time, I'm not voting for him again.

Didn't we talk about you not posting anymore?

[OklahomaTuba]

Are you serious?! Katrina was a ****-up at all levels of government. To deny this is to be as delusional as anything any left-wing nut has ever said.

What other natural disaster can we compare this with to say that the limits of Government weren't touched?

Like you said, somehow 59,000 people were saved based on simulations (done by LSU and the COE I believe). And the fact is the Government moved faster than at any time in history. What didn't move fast was the city and state.

Perhaps the limits of what Government can do were simply reached? I think so at least.

What didn't happen was the evacuation plan for those who didn't have cars or the sick and elderly, or preparing the shelters according to the city plan. Those things are the city and states job, not Bush's.

Perhaps that's why all those buses that sat flooded is something the Bush haters don't like to see????

[1stTimeCaller]

who's 'we'?

[OklahomaTuba]

Tuba might be, I'm not sure. :D
Tell me exactly what he didn't do, and I will agree with that.

[KABOOKIE]

Whoever sent me the neg spek with this comment:

"you sir are an @sshole, quite trolling"....

I will quite trolling.... lol
I can't stop being an @sshole though....


Can we ban LAS's trolls from the SO too? :rolleyes:

[mdklatt]

Perhaps the limits of what Government can do were simply reached? I think so at least.


I don't know, but we're not going find out as long as everybody plays the blame game.




What didn't happen was the evacuation plan for those who didn't have cars or the sick and elderly.


Right. There's something for every current and future government leader to learn from Katrina, from Bush on down.

[JohnnyMack]

who's 'we'?

Go get me a Kincaid's burger and FedEx it to me.

[imjebus]

What other natural disaster can we compare this with to say that the limits of Government weren't touched?

Like you said, somehow 59,000 people were saved based on simulations (done by LSU and the COE I believe). And the fact is the Government moved faster than at any time in history. What didn't move fast was the city and state.

Perhaps the limits of what Government can do were simply reached? I think so at least.

What didn't happen was the evacuation plan for those who didn't have cars or the sick and elderly, or preparing the shelters according to the city plan. Those things are the city and states job, not Bush's.

Perhaps that's why all those buses that sat flooded is something the Bush haters don't like to see????


Lets pretend Clinton was the president when this happened and then see how fast your position would change.

You guys are telling me that Bush took responsibility for things not happening like they should. So why is it so hard to say that Bush was PARTLY at fault?

[mdklatt]

Tell me exactly what he didn't do, and I will agree with that.

I'm not sure what Bush didn't do that he could have done given the information he had at the time. I don't necessarily "blame" Bush for what happened, but clearly mistakes were made that can be learned from. It's clear now that pre-positioned response teams don't do much good when the roads get washed away (and really, someone should thought of this beforehand). Perhaps that Navy hospital ship should have been sent sooner so that it was on station immediately. The bureacracy involved in getting state approval for federal assistance should be streamlined. Look at the debacle of all those mobile homes sitting in Arkansas instead of being used for their intended purpose; surely something can be done about that in the future.

And none of these are Bush's mistakes. He has to take the ultimate responsibility because he is the ultimate authority, but he can only go by what his advisors are telling him. He arguably made a mistake by appointing an incompetent political crony as the FEMA director, but all presidents do that nonesense.

[Hatfield]

Like you said, somehow 59,000 people were saved based on simulations (done by LSU and the COE I believe).

you are being pretty liberal with your facts

[NormanPride]

Bush = figurehead. And the figurehead gets the blame/credit/whatever that the national government gets. That's just the way it goes.

[SCOUT]

I'm not sure what Bush didn't do that he could have done given the information he had at the time. I don't necessarily "blame" Bush for what happened, but clearly mistakes were made that can be learned from. It's clear now that pre-positioned response teams don't do much good when the roads get washed away (and really, someone should thought of this beforehand). Perhaps that Navy hospital ship should have been sent sooner so that it was on station immediately. The bureacracy involved in getting state approval for federal assistance should be streamlined. Look at the debacle of all those mobile homes sitting in Arkansas instead of being used for their intended purpose; surely something can be done about that in the future.

And none of these are Bush's mistakes. He has to take the ultimate responsibility because he is the ultimate authority, but he can only go by what his advisors are telling him. He arguably made a mistake by appointing an incompetent political crony as the FEMA director, but all presidents do that nonesense.
I pretty much agree with all of this. There are plenty of examples of simple things that could/should have been done and weren't. We should be preparing for the hurricane season and implementing lessons learned from the last one.

The problem I have with some of the broader complaints is the hindsight with which they speak. It is hard to station troops, ships, etc in the right place when you don't actually know where the storm is going to hit. Would it have been a better scenario if it missed LA but sunk a naval ship and destroyed a national guard unit?

The levies could break, the levies could hold, it could be a cat 5, it could dissipate, it could hit NO dead on, it could miss NO completely. These are all things I heard in the day or so leading up to the hurricane. Having the perfect plan in place for a moving target is a pretty tall order.

[Sooner_Bob]

Have any of you read this stuff?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/reports/katrina-lessons-learned/appendix-a.html

[Tear Down This Wall]

If you're a neo-con, or a W fan, or a Dallas livin' republican who will support the administration regardless, can you see how some might see this video as a tad bit damning? I'm not trying to point blame, just trying to see if you get where people are coming from?

Well, let's see...the guy on the video with the big weather chart said, "I don't think any model can tell you with any confidence right now whether the levies will be topped or not, but that's obviously a very, very grave concern."

Hmmm. No one could tell him with any confidence before the storm wether the levies would be topped or not. I think no one still means nobody.

So, if the super weathermen didn't know and couldn't tell Bush, what was he supposed to do? He simply did what the government did in all prior hurricanes - got FEMA ready to roll. The difference between this hurricane and other was that the state response was ridiculous - a crying governor and a pea-brained mayor.

I hate to point out the obvious, but Mississippi also suffered their worst hurricane ever. However, they seem to be moving along at getting themselves back together again without all of the political falderall.

Then again, Mississippi governor doesn't have his head shoved up his backside the way Louisiana's does. Neither, apparently, do the mayors of the cities affected there. Also, the people of Mississippi affected don't seem to be as whiny.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the Carter, Reagan, and Clinton administrations all sent money to update the levee in New Orleans, but the Lousiana politicians didn't do it. What more do you want? The feds, no matter who was in power, tried to address the matter over and over again, but Lousiana politicians wasted/pocketed the money instead of preparing for the inevitable.

To me, the people of New Orleans got what they deserved for continually electing incompetent, thieving knuckleheads to represent their city and state. Screw New Orleans. I hope they lose the Saints, the Hornets, and have crappy Mardi Gras from here on out. It was a poorly run dump full of thugs before Katrina, and now it's outward appearance simply matches that.

[Harry Beanbag]

Have any of you read this stuff?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/reports/katrina-lessons-learned/appendix-a.html


I didn't read it, but it looks like they've got things under control and will fix anything that may have been broken. What more can we ask for?

[mdklatt]

it looks like they've got things under control and will fix anything that may have been broken

You know this the federal government you're talking about, right?? :D

[picasso]

wait a minute wait a minute. I thought Bush blew the levies up.

same as the World Trade Centers.

[Harry Beanbag]

You know this the federal government you're talking about, right?? :D


Of course, but I think of them as slow and dim-witted, not criminally incompetent. For the most part anyway. :)

It appears they are making the efforts to improve in case of another disaster, which flies in the face of those who claim otherwise. Preparedness for anything, whether it's a job interview, changing the oil in your car, completing a big project at work, or responding to a natural disaster is based on experience and lessons learned. Fine tuning your actions, plan of attack, and procedures will only make you more successful in your next endeavor.

[jk the sooner fan]

where exactly would you preposition the navy hospital ship? i mean, where it could provide immediate assistance.....and not a 2-3 day sail from getting to the shore, which nobody on land could get too because of the flood
http://www.greenbeltbaptist.org/Images/Hurricane%20Katrina%20color%20thumbnail-medium.jpg

[Harry Beanbag]

where exactly would you preposition the navy hospital ship?
http://www.greenbeltbaptist.org/Images/Hurricane%20Katrina%20color%20thumbnail-medium.jpg


It should station itself directly under the eye and follow the storm in, duh. Stupid neo-cons couldn't even figure that out.

[mdklatt]

where exactly would you preposition the navy hospital ship? i mean, where it could provide immediate assistance.....and not a 2-3 day sail from getting to the shore, which nobody on land could get too because of the flood
http://www.greenbeltbaptist.org/Images/Hurricane%20Katrina%20color%20thumbnail-medium.jpg

Something like a hospital ship could safely sail in the outer area of the hurricane. It could have least been closer than Norfolk at the time Katrina hit.

[Harry Beanbag]

Something like a hospital ship could safely sail in the outer area of the hurricane. It could have least been closer than Norfolk at the time Katrina hit.


The Navy doesn't even send warships into rough seas, no way in hell a hospital ship will be sent anywhere near a CAT 5 hurricane.

[jk the sooner fan]

i'm no naval expert, but i would think that with the unpredictability factor of a hurricane, there would be no place in the gulf that you could call "safe" with a hurricane that size

i also think that the response time was just not enough to get the ship into position any sooner....where was it at when they got the call? ships arent jets...

[picasso]

also, if you live in an area the get's hurricanes quite often, you might checkout the weather channel or local news weatherman person.
ya know, in the spring time I watch for tornadoes on the tv reports.:)

[Mixer!]

hat and i have been in agreement a lot lately.......
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Duerer-apocalypse.png/434px-Duerer-apocalypse.png

:eek: :stunned: :D

[Harry Beanbag]

The Bataan, though, was already in the gulf when Katrina crossed Florida and picked up new, devastating energy from the warm gulf waters. The ship, sailing near the Texas coastline, had just finished an exercise in Panama and was scheduled to return to its home port in Norfolk on Friday after six weeks at sea.

Instead, the ship rode out the hurricane in 12 to 14 foot seas and then fell in behind the storm as it neared the gulf coast. A day after Katrina struck, Navy helicopters arrived from Corpus Christi, Texas, and began survey flights over New Orleans.


The role in the relief effort of the sizable medical staff on board the Bataan was not up to the Navy, but to FEMA officials directing the overall effort.

That agency has been criticized sharply for failing to respond quickly enough.

Tyson said the hurricane was an unusual event that has left some painful lessons.

"Can you do things better? Always," Tyson said. "Unfortunately, some of the lessons we have learned during this catastrophe we are learning the hard way. But I think we're working together well to make things happen."


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0509040369sep04,1,4144825.story?page=1&ctrack=1&cset=true&coll=chi-news-hed

[mdklatt]

i'm no naval expert, but i would think that with the unpredictability factor of a hurricane, there would be no place in the gulf that you could call "safe" with a hurricane that size

Sure there is. Large ships can move faster than a hurricane. Get near the left-rear quadrant relative to the storm track (where the winds are weakest) and sail a course to maintain that position. The strongest winds are only in a narrow zone around the eye. The outer bands aren't anything worse than a squall line, which ship sail through all the time. It's not that the wind that's a big deal for ships, but the waves. Hurricane waves aren't usually that big considering the wind speed. It wouldn't be a lot fun to sail near a hurricane, but it's possible.

[Harry Beanbag]

Sure there is. Large ships can move faster than a hurricane. Get near the left-rear quadrant relative to the storm track (where the winds are weakest) and sail a course to maintain that position. The strongest winds are only in a narrow zone around the eye. The outer bands aren't anything worse than a squall line, which ship sail through all the time. It's not that the wind that's a big deal for ships, but the waves. Hurricane waves aren't usually that big considering the wind speed. It wouldn't be a lot fun to sail near a hurricane, but it's possible.

Apparently you are a naval expert? Large ships like aircraft carriers can move faster, a hospital ship though isn't that good of a bet. I would hate to be on that ship on the left rear quadrant of that storm when it decided it was headed for Corpus Christi instead of New Orleans. You can't predict that, and a ship like that won't be putting much distance between itself and the storm very quickly.




That's the point. I believe it was sitting in Norfolk until after the hurricane was gone. I'm not faulting anybody for the decision, but it's something that can possibly be done differently the next time around.

See above.

[Sooner_Bob]

also, if you live in an area the get's hurricanes quite often, you might checkout the weather channel or local news weatherman person.
ya know, in the spring time I watch for tornadoes on the tv reports.:)

that would make too much sense.

[picasso]

did the Army bring in a hospital when the '99 tornado hit Moore? bastards.

[mdklatt]

Apparently you are a naval expert?

Define "expert". ;)

The article you posted backed up what I said. The Battan was in fact following the hurricane, and only encountering 12-14 foot seas. Not fun, but not a problem for a ship that size.

[Harry Beanbag]

did the Army bring in a hospital when the '99 tornado hit Moore? bastards.


FEMA should have positioned a hospital ship downstream in the South Canadian River so it could be there immediately after the tornado moved through.

[Harry Beanbag]

Define "expert". ;)

The article you posted backed up what I said. The Battan was in fact following the hurricane, and only encountering 12-14 foot seas. Not fun, but not a problem for a ship that size.


12-14 foot seas aren't bad at all. Although I think that particular class of ship has a fairly flat bottom, which would be worse.

And it didn't exactly back up what you said. You said the ship was in Norfolk until after the storm went through. ;)

[picasso]

FEMA should have positioned a hospital ship downstream in the South Canadian River so it could be there immediately after the tornado moved through.
exactly.
I'm hoping there were hospital ships abound near Texas when the big one hit Houston.

[Scott D]

This thread has certainly convinced me that it's time to burn Washington to the ground :rolleyes:

[SoonerProphet]

Sweet, Kincaids and Durer in one thread.

[mdklatt]

And it didn't exactly back up what you said. You said the ship was in Norfolk until after the storm went through. ;)

Yeah, I was wrong about that. I deleted that part after I saw the article you posted, and after you had already quoted me.

I'll quit editing if you do!

[SoonerInFla]

What other natural disaster can we compare this with to say that the limits of Government weren't touched?

Like you said, somehow 59,000 people were saved based on simulations (done by LSU and the COE I believe). And the fact is the Government moved faster than at any time in history. What didn't move fast was the city and state.

Perhaps the limits of what Government can do were simply reached? I think so at least.

What didn't happen was the evacuation plan for those who didn't have cars or the sick and elderly, or preparing the shelters according to the city plan. Those things are the city and states job, not Bush's.

Perhaps that's why all those buses that sat flooded is something the Bush haters don't like to see????

My company evacuated us off of The Mississippi River into a motel in New Orleans the day before Katrina. They wanted us close to bring the ships in ASAP when it was over. Having been through Hurricane Ivan and some others in Pensacola, I was pretty surprised at the way things were being handled in NO.

We checked into our Hotel and went out to screw around. I allready had it in my mind that I was probably gonna get out of Dodge. Later that night I stopped in some greasey spoon and sat next to a guy that worked for Human Services in NO. He was going to the SuperDome to help with evacuees.He was very helpful in giving me directions on how to get around the interstate flow that they had set up because I wanted to go East as opposed to West.They had the entire city headed west. He also told me that they would be issuing the first mandatory evacuation of the City, ever, in the morning. I told him they were about 2 days late to even begin that adventure and he agreed. It was my understanding that the order was never issued because Nagans' attorneys advised him against it.

I got my stuff from the motel and made my way to where I could head East on I10. I was pretty much dumbfounded. 10 East was wide open. I mean no traffic and 10 West was absolute gridlock. I did 90 +all the way to Pensacola. Seemed like they could have directed some folks East and then North but they had the entire place going west.There was also almost no information on the radio. I made it into Mississippi before I got good radio info.

Anyways, I agree the Federal Govt. dropped the ball big-time when the dust finally settled. Everytime I come into NO on I10 now, I think of all the people that made their way to the interstate only to wait days before they got help. That was absolutely inexcuseable and the blame goes to the Federal Govt. I call it " the scene of the crime." However, the City and State Government of La. acted in a manner that I consider being pretty damn close to criminal. When there is a hurricane in the Gulf, you better damn well act like it's a Cat. 5 and it's coming to your house. If you don't, as we have learned, lots of folks are gonne die. In this case it happened to be mainly people that didn't have the means to get out and the State and City Govt. should have not only made this decision for them, but they should have provided the means to get em out. 3 days before, not the day of the storm.

[Scott D]

Translation of SoonerinFla's post 'we have too many damned lawyers and they cost people lives' ;)

[BeetDigger]

Originally Posted by Harry Beanbag
Apparently you are a naval expert?


Not me. You are kind of splitting the difference. Try about 10"-12" higher and 10"-12" lower.

[jk the sooner fan]

Sweet, Kincaids and Durer in one thread.

you're becoming very jkm'ish....... ;)

[Vaevictis]

he got this briefing exactly one day before the hurricane hit, what exactly was he supposed to do?

Well, the correct answer is that he can't do anything about the levees breaking at that point. Actually, he could not have done anything about it even if he had had weeks of prior notice. By the time Hurricane Katrina formed in the Atlantic, it was too late do do anything about the levees. The failure of the levees cannot in any shape or fasion be blamed entirely on Bush. Every administration for 20+ years, local, state, and national could have done something about it. None of them did.

The main issue here is that Bush said that nobody anticipated the breech of the levies, and at the very least, he was told that the storm surge could roll over the levies. What people are taking from this video is that Bush was indeed warned from within his own administration of the possibility of a "breach" -- although I think the critics and Bush are viewing the term "breach" in a different light. (Technically speaking, if the storm surge rolls over the levies, the levies one can say that the levies were "breached". I think what Bush may have meant by "breach" was the catastrophic failure that ended up occuring.)

I dislike Bush as much as anyone (and probably for longer than most), but I'm not sure this is entirely fair.

[Harry Beanbag]

Yeah, I was wrong about that. I deleted that part after I saw the article you posted, and after you had already quoted me.

I'll quit editing if you do!


Okay. :)

That ship being off the coast of Texas was just luck anyway. I'd like to see a ship leave Norfolk after we knew a hurricane was moving into the Gulf of Mexico and make it around to the opposite side of the storm in time to render aid immediately following landfall. Not gonna happen. Now if we just go ahead and take over Mexico, we can preposition hospital ships in say Cancun, you might be able to have a fighting chance that way. ;)

And, do we do that for every hurricane? If the storm hits in a relatively uninhabited area instead of a major city, it won't really be needed anyway will it?

[Vaevictis]

Now if we just go ahead and take over Mexico, we can preposition hospital ships in say Cancun, you might be able to have a fighting chance that way. ;)

It might be that Mexico would let us do it (with a hospital ship, anyway) if we just asked, especially if we agreed to use it to render aid in case Mexico is hit.

[Herr Scholz]

“We are fully prepared.” -Baghdad Bob

[JohnnyMack]

Well, let's see...the guy on the video with the big weather chart said, "I don't think any model can tell you with any confidence right now whether the levies will be topped or not, but that's obviously a very, very grave concern."

Hmmm. No one could tell him with any confidence before the storm wether the levies would be topped or not. I think no one still means nobody.

So, if the super weathermen didn't know and couldn't tell Bush, what was he supposed to do? He simply did what the government did in all prior hurricanes - got FEMA ready to roll. The difference between this hurricane and other was that the state response was ridiculous - a crying governor and a pea-brained mayor.

I hate to point out the obvious, but Mississippi also suffered their worst hurricane ever. However, they seem to be moving along at getting themselves back together again without all of the political falderall.

Then again, Mississippi governor doesn't have his head shoved up his backside the way Louisiana's does. Neither, apparently, do the mayors of the cities affected there. Also, the people of Mississippi affected don't seem to be as whiny.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the Carter, Reagan, and Clinton administrations all sent money to update the levee in New Orleans, but the Lousiana politicians didn't do it. What more do you want? The feds, no matter who was in power, tried to address the matter over and over again, but Lousiana politicians wasted/pocketed the money instead of preparing for the inevitable.

To me, the people of New Orleans got what they deserved for continually electing incompetent, thieving knuckleheads to represent their city and state. Screw New Orleans. I hope they lose the Saints, the Hornets, and have crappy Mardi Gras from here on out. It was a poorly run dump full of thugs before Katrina, and now it's outward appearance simply matches that.

W has shown more accountability than you did in that post. Dude's got more sack than you apparently.

[BeetDigger]

“We fully prepare our players for the NFL.” -Mack Brown


All evidence to the contrary. :mack:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/don_banks/02/27/texas/index.html

[Harry Beanbag]

It might be that Mexico would let us do it (with a hospital ship, anyway) if we just asked, especially if we agreed to use it to render aid in case Mexico is hit.


Well, I was just being facetious.

[Jerk]

You know, guys, I think the real story here is that the FEDGOD got overwhelmed by a once-in-a-lifetime natural disaster that destroyed an area the size of Oklahoma....and the libs just can't believe that the Almighty FEDGOD didn't have the resources to cope with a disaster of such magnitude. These are the same people who believe that FEDGOD can end poverty, create world peace and economic equality, reduce all crime, give health care to everyone, etc, if the damned conservative racist white guys just got out of the way.

Government is their god and socialism is their religion. It can't fail unless a Republican conspired to make it so.

[Sooner_Bob]

Hmmmmm . . . tapes are popping up everywhere.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/03/katrina/main1364981.shtml

http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2005/12/14/image1127975g.jpg

In the new tape, Louisiana's governor is seen assuring federal emergency management officials that New Orleans' levees were holding – hours after a levee breach had been reported.

[jk the sooner fan]

yeah it would seem that the scope and magnitude of information coming in from multiple sources, overwhelmed quite a few at the highest levels

the problem is that we dont elect officials based on their disaster response qualifications....

[Sooner_Bob]

the problem is that we dont elect officials based on their disaster response qualifications....

not yet anyway

[JohnnyMack]

http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2005/12/14/image1127975g.jpg


She wasn't satisfied with that? Too bad, I'm tired.

[Tear Down This Wall]

W has shown more accountability than you did in that post. Dude's got more sack than you apparently.

Again, this is why Bush spent his entire political career whipping Democrats. Of course he publicly took accountability. It's what the D.C. press wants. He threw them a bone to chew on before the slunk back to their doghouses to lick each other's nuts and as*ses...or, in David Gregory's case, to go on a drinking binge.

Bush and Rove, I guarantee you, sit back and laugh at the D.C. folk and Democrats. A weather guy tells them no one knows if the levees will be breached. Hello? That's the same story with every hurricane that's hit The Big Easy since the levees were constructed.

Bush had FEMA ready to roll, but was getting crappy information from the people on the ground in Louisiana. The Crying Governor telling him the levee wasn't leaking...the Crazy Mayor fleeing as fast as he could to Dallas, with hundred of buses under his control were still parked and being flooded as thousands of sick and elderly people in his city were stranded.....

To placate the ignorant (and booze-soaked) D.C. press, Bush & Co. made a little report for them and "took" responsibility. Big deal. Pass the salt and pepper, Karl.

The truth will always be that the citizens of New Orleans did themselves in by helping elect two idiots named Katherine Blanco and Ray Nagin. The morons they elected for decades before who wasted money sent by Carter, Reagan, and Clinton to upgrade the dams are also their own fault.

Meanwhile, in Mississippi, the governor and mayors continue to clean up and get back to business without all of the falderall.