Shocking development in Iraq [Archive] - SoonerFans.com Message Boards

JohnnyMack

2/23/2006, 10:45 AM

And by shocking I mean, not at all.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11491483/

Iraq struggles to contain sectarian violence
Scores killed as Sunnis, Shiites trade accusations after mosque bombing
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060223/060223_iraqviolence_vmed_4a.widec.jpg
Image: An Iraqi mother, her face covered by the blood of her two policemen sons who were shot dead by gunmen, holds their shoes as she takes part in their funeral procession in Baqouba on Wednesday.

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Religious and political leaders scrambled Thursday to halt a descent into all-out civil war after the destruction of a Shiite shrine sparked the worst sectarian violence the country has seen since the fall of Saddam Hussein, with scores of people killed in Baghdad in the past 24 hours.

In one of the worst incidents, gunmen pulled factory workers off buses northeast of Baghdad and killed 47 of them, a provincial council member said.

The victims were traveling in three buses when they were stopped at a checkpoint in the Nahrawan area, about 12 miles south of Baqouba, said Dhari Thuban, a member of the Diyala Provincial Council. The buses were burned and their passengers killed, he said.

The motive for the killing was not immediately clear.

Residents told police that the bullet-riddled bodies were found around midday behind a brick factory, the Interior Ministry said.

The victims, who ranged in age between about 20 and 50, were dressed in civilian clothes and their deaths appeared recent, the ministry’s Maj. Falah al-Mohamadawi told the Associated Press.

Thuban said the victims were brick factory workers, but al-Mohamadawi said no identification documents were found on them.

Other attacks

* Earlier in the day, eight Iraqi soldiers were killed in a bombing on a Sunni mosque in Baqouba, and nearly a dozen people were wounded.
* Iraqi police and army officials said at least 40 bodies were found in one spot just south of Baghdad. It was not clear if the number included 53 people already reported by police to have died in Baghdad since Wednesday's bombing.
* At least 25 people were killed in Basra, 340 miles southeast of Baghdad, police said. A bomb targeting an Iraqi army foot patrol killed 12 people and wounded 21 in the city of Baquba, 40 miles northeast of Baghdad on Thursday, an army source said.
* Near Samarra, the bodies of three Iraqi journalists, including a well-known correspondent for Al Arabiya television, were found Thursday, police and the Arabic network said.

In an effort the staunch the sectarian violence, Iraq cancelled all police and army leave and extended curfew hours in Baghdad and other cities, an interior ministry source said on Thursday.

Security personnel have been placed on the highest alert, the official said. Curfew hours were extended indefinitely in Baghdad and will now run from 8 p.m. to 6 a.m., instead of 11 p.m.. to 5 a.m.

Why do I get have this image of W dressed up like the cop in the Naked Gun screaming at the TV screen, "Please disperse, there's nothing to see here! Please disperse!"

Sad, but not unexpected.

colleyvillesooner

2/23/2006, 11:01 AM

http://www.hpcc.uh.edu/~tonyc/sony/barbrady.jpg

OklahomaTuba

2/23/2006, 11:44 AM

Sad, but not unexpected.

Its not unexpected at all.

This is what Zarqawi said he wanted to do since the beginning of the war. The attacks will just keep getting bigger until the Shia finally try to put the smack down on the sunni's.

If the Shia do that, then its all over. Hopefully they won't.

picasso

2/23/2006, 11:46 AM

well, we are talking about people who collectively sh** their pants and kill over a silly cartoon.

NormanPride

2/23/2006, 12:03 PM

Iraq needs more hippies.

BoomerJack

2/23/2006, 12:07 PM

OklahomaTuba

"..The attacks will just keep getting bigger until the Shia finally try to put the smack down on the sunni's."

If the Shia do that, then its all over. Hopefully they won't."

"Hopefully they won't" what? Keep getting bigger or try to put the smack down on the Sunni's?

JohnnyMack

2/23/2006, 12:11 PM

Its not unexpected at all.

This is what Zarqawi said he wanted to do since the beginning of the war. The attacks will just keep getting bigger until the Shia finally try to put the smack down on the sunni's.

If the Shia do that, then its all over. Hopefully they won't.

See you blame Zarqawi, I blame hundreds of years of strife between these factions. The same strife that I said made it a bad idea to conquer Iraq in the first place.

OklahomaTuba

2/23/2006, 12:12 PM

Both.

Seems most of the leaders on BOTH the Sunni and Shiite side are trying to calm people down. Hopefully its legit concern, not doublespeak.

I think this will be a huge test though. Hopefully this young democracy can handle this. I doubt Iraq falls into civil war with our troops there though. And I still believe Iraq should be broken up if they want it to be.

OklahomaTuba

2/23/2006, 12:18 PM

See you blame Zarqawi, I blame hundreds of years of strife between these factions. The same strife that I said made it a bad idea to conquer Iraq in the first place.

I never thought it was a great idea either. I thought it had to be done.

Nevertheless, we can't just leave as you would have us do, or there would be mass genocide at this point.

This will take years IMO. Just like it has done in other places around the world like Korea and in Yugoslavia.

I still think splitting the place up would solve more problems the what they would create.

slickdawg

2/23/2006, 12:21 PM

If American Christians took their religion and their beliefs as seriously
as the Muslims do, we would have already nuked the globe 400 times over.

Those people are no better than the rioters in LA, or the looters in New Orleans - they are just looking for a reason to start a war, literally.

JohnnyMack

2/23/2006, 12:23 PM

we can't just leave as you would have us do

You base that assumption on what?

Harry Beanbag

2/23/2006, 12:32 PM

The same strife that I said made it a bad idea to conquer Iraq in the first place.

If only Bush consulted you on national security issues, we could have avoided this mess.

NormanPride

2/23/2006, 12:35 PM

If only Bush consulted you on national security issues, we could have avoided this mess.

Paying attention to the populace certainly doesn't seem to be something that our government does really well. Usually, they just tell us what to think, then act justified when we think that way. But that's neither here nor there...

Harry Beanbag

2/23/2006, 12:37 PM

Paying attention to the populace certainly doesn't seem to be something that our government does really well. Usually, they just tell us what to think, then act justified when we think that way. But that's neither here nor there...

So the government should base all their decisions, primarily foreign policy and national security, on what not only JohnnyMack thinks, but the entire population of the country?

NormanPride

2/23/2006, 12:41 PM

So the government should base all their decisions, primarily foreign policy and national security, on what not only JohnnyMack thinks, but the entire population of the country?

Er, generally that's the point of a representative government. But to be fair, it is the job of the public to get people into office who will represent their wishes effectively. Which we haven't really done. ;)

Harry Beanbag

2/23/2006, 12:44 PM

I don't know. My idea of leadership is to do what you think is right regardless of what the ignorant masses think (or have been told what to think) should be done.

JohnnyMack

2/23/2006, 12:46 PM

So the government should base all their decisions, primarily foreign policy and national security, on what not only JohnnyMack thinks, but the entire population of the country?

It was my personal opinion that invading Iraq was a bad idea. I thought it was a bad idea because I didn't think that the factions that make up Iraq would be able to get along long term. It was my opinion that with the ethnic and geographical (most importantly where the oil is) makeup of Iraq, a lasting stable democracy was not feasible.

Again just my opinion.

W can make his own policy decisions, but if things don't go well in regards to those opinions it is in fact the right of the populace to voice their displeasure. It is my right as a citizen to have an opinion that differs from the President's and not be labelled a traitor because of it. We shouldn't be sunshine pumping lemmings, we should ask tough questions of our elected officials and hold their collective feet to the fire when they make mistakes.

KABOOKIE

2/23/2006, 01:01 PM

Man has the US really f'd this place up? How in the hell did these factions live in peace before we ever got there? :rolleyes:

Harry Beanbag

2/23/2006, 01:10 PM

It was my personal opinion that invading Iraq was a bad idea. I thought it was a bad idea because I didn't think that the factions that make up Iraq would be able to get along long term. It was my opinion that with the ethnic and geographical (most importantly where the oil is) makeup of Iraq, a lasting stable democracy was not feasible.

Again just my opinion.

W can make his own policy decisions, but if things don't go well in regards to those opinions it is in fact the right of the populace to voice their displeasure. It is my right as a citizen to have an opinion that differs from the President's and not be labelled a traitor because of it. We shouldn't be sunshine pumping lemmings, we should ask tough questions of our elected officials and hold their collective feet to the fire when they make mistakes.

I've never labeled you a traitor, and I understand that the government should have accountability for their decisions.

I'd rather not get in another debate about why we invaded Iraq, WMD, nation building etc. That's been rehashed a million times. But I do know that freeing the Iraqi people from a brutal dictator and giving them the "gift of democracy" wasn't the primary reason we did it.

I think that we as Americans have a fault in situations such as this. Our country was created as a melting pot full of all different races, creeds, religions, etc. and it has worked with unparalleled outstanding success. Therefore, we can't understand why it won't work other places, and we don't know how to handle it.

Personally, I can't wait for Bush to get out of office. Maybe the people that have decided to use him as their whipping boy for all things that ever have and could go wrong will graduate kindergarten and learn to play well with others again. Probably not though. It's most likely a never ending cycle of idiocy against whoever is in office. :mad: :O :(

JohnnyMack

2/23/2006, 01:15 PM

Man has the US really f'd this place up? How in the hell did these factions live in peace before we ever got there? :rolleyes:

This was inevitable regardless of when it happened or by what means. If the people of Iraq had risen up on their own and overthrown Hussein you'd have had a power grab like the one that's playing out.

That's why I said I didn't want to get involved in the first place. Now that the factions are taking sides we're stuck in the middle for who knows how long.

And they didn't "live in peace", the only reason they weren't at each others throats before we got to that god forsaken litter box is because their tyrannical leader wouldn't allow it.

Pricetag

2/23/2006, 01:17 PM

Drop the -ility and make it -le, and you have it right.

JohnnyMack

2/23/2006, 01:18 PM

Maybe the people that have decided to use him as their whipping boy for all things that ever have and could go wrong will graduate kindergarten and learn to play well with others again. Probably not though. It's most likely a never ending cycle of idiocy against whoever is in office. :mad: :O :(

I don't blame him for all things ever done, I just really, really, vehemently from day one have disagreed with his policy towards Iraq. Other than that he's just a sucka whorn. :mack:

JohnnyMack

2/23/2006, 01:19 PM

Drop the -ility and make it -le, and you have it right.

:O

slickdawg

2/23/2006, 01:24 PM

Man has the US really f'd this place up? How in the hell did these factions live in peace before we ever got there? :rolleyes:

Saddam killed anyone that tried to rise up, which is the only way they will ever live in peace.

KABOOKIE

2/23/2006, 01:25 PM

This was inevitable regardless of when it happened or by what means. If the people of Iraq had risen up on their own and overthrown Hussein you'd have had a power grab like the one that's playing out.

That's why I said I didn't want to get involved in the first place. Now that the factions are taking sides we're stuck in the middle for who knows how long.

And they didn't "live in peace", the only reason they weren't at each others throats before we got to that god forsaken litter box is because their tyrannical leader wouldn't allow it.

I think you missed the :rolleyes: ;)

And if by "wouldn't allow it" you mean gassed all dissenters to death then, yeah.

JohnnyMack

2/23/2006, 01:27 PM

I think you missed the :rolleyes: ;)

And if by "wouldn't allow it" you mean gassed all dissenters to death then, yeah.

:O

I'm going to lunch.

SoonerProphet

2/23/2006, 01:30 PM

I think you missed the :rolleyes: ;)

And if by "wouldn't allow it" you mean gassed all dissenters to death then, yeah.

Since when did feelings and squishy 'Liberal' notions enter the equation? If the dude destroyed jihadi nutjobs and fostered a stable secular society then what is the big deal. Nation building and making the world safe for democracy is a poor shibboleth in the real world.

JohnnyMack

2/23/2006, 01:35 PM

Since when did feelings and squishy 'Liberal' notions enter the equation? If the dude destroyed jihadi nutjobs and fostered a stable secular society then what is the big deal. Nation building and making the world safe for democracy is a poor shibboleth in the real world.

<Heads to dictionary.com to find out what shibboleth means.>

usmc-sooner

2/23/2006, 01:38 PM

Since when did feelings and squishy 'Liberal' notions enter the equation? If the dude destroyed jihadi nutjobs and fostered a stable secular society then what is the big deal. Nation building and making the world safe for democracy is a poor shibboleth in the real world.

maybe you should write President Bush and let him know just how things are in the real world.

You could go from Jr. High Teacher to director of foreign affairs over night:D

fadada1

2/23/2006, 01:40 PM

somehow, i fail to feel at all concerned over iraqis killing iraqis. similarly, i don't give a ratsass about folks on the west bank killing each other off as well. until they (actually ALL of us) figure out that jesus, mohammad, buddah, joshua, the little man on the hill, or the sun god of micronesia don't want us killing each other (and actually prefer tolerance and acceptance) - I DON'T GIVE A **** ABOUT MIDDLE EAST!!!!!!

NormanPride

2/23/2006, 01:45 PM

Google rawks.

Definitions of shibboleth on the Web:

* Language usage indicative of one's regional and/or social origins used to identify members of one's own or of another group. Borrowed from Biblical Hebrew; refers to the story in the Book of Judges 12:5-6 in which shibboleth was used by the Gileadites as a password to identify the Ephraimites by their dialectal pronunciation.
www.csa.com/hottopics/ebonics/gloss.php

* 1. a distinctive or peculiar use of some aspect of speech that identifies a social group. 2. an old slogan, catchword, or common saying that has lost meaning or relevance, as "You're the cat's pajamas" from the 1920s.
www.nde.state.ne.us/READ/FRAMEWORK/glossary/general_p-t.html

* A unique pronunciation, word, behavior, or practice used to distinguish one group of people from another, and to identify individuals as either members of the group or outsiders. A saying that is strongly used by members of a group and regarded as meaningless, unimportant or misguided by outsiders. A belief that is widely held but interferes with the ability to speak or think about things without preconception.
www.thepeacefulplanet.com/glossary.html

* When you want to share secured online services or access restricted digital content, the Shibboleth system offers a powerful, scalable, and easy-to-use solution. It leverages campus identity and access management infrastructures to authenticate individuals and then sends information about them to the resource site, enabling the resource provider to make an informed authorization decision. More information about the Shibboleth Project.
webapp.lab.ac.uab.edu/wiki/mlist/index.php/MlistGlossary

* motto: a favorite saying of a sect or political group
* a manner of speaking that is distinctive of a particular group of people
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* Shibboleth is the Hebrew word that literally means "ear of wheat". In the Hebrew Bible, pronunciation of this word was used to distinguish members of a group whose dialect lacked a "sh" sound from members of a group whose dialect included such a sound. The consequences of getting it wrong were fatal: Today, "shibboleth" refers to words and phrases that can be used in a similar way—to distinguish members of a group from outsiders. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth

* Shibboleth is the name of an Internet2 research project into a federated identity-based authentication and authorization infrastructure based on SAML. It provides a web-based single sign-on mechanism.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth_(Internet2)

KABOOKIE

2/23/2006, 01:47 PM

Since when did feelings and squishy 'Liberal' notions enter the equation? If the dude destroyed jihadi nutjobs and fostered a stable secular society then what is the big deal. Nation building and making the world safe for democracy is a poor shibboleth in the real world.

Yeah, gassing whole cities pretty much guarntees to kill the couple jihadi nutjobs.

royalfan5

2/23/2006, 01:47 PM

Saddam killed anyone that tried to rise up, which is the only way they will ever live in peace.
I believe that's refered to the Josef Broz Tito method for controlling a country welded toghether out of people that despise each other for political purposes.

JohnnyMack

2/23/2006, 02:17 PM

SoonerProphet

2/23/2006, 03:32 PM

maybe you should write President Bush and let him know just how things are in the real world.

You could go from Jr. High Teacher to director of foreign affairs over night:D

Yeah, pretty funny how a "Jr. High Teacher" knew what the f*ck was gonna go down in that ****hole while the foreign affairs "experts" and their assorted cheerleaders didn't have a clue.

JohnnyMack

2/23/2006, 03:47 PM

Yeah, pretty funny how a "Jr. High Teacher" knew what the f*ck was gonna go down in that ****hole while the foreign affairs "experts" and their assorted cheerleaders didn't have a clue.

I am neither a Jr. High Teacher nor do I know what shibboleth means, but I knew that Iraq was a clusterfu*k waiting to happen. I did a cheerleader once. That count towards anything?

Harry Beanbag

2/23/2006, 03:54 PM

I did a cheerleader once. That count towards anything?

http://www.evanbailyn.com/cheer.jpg

;)

JohnnyMack

2/23/2006, 03:59 PM

http://www.evanbailyn.com/cheer.jpg

;)

:mad:

Female. Cheerleader.

:D

usmc-sooner

2/24/2006, 07:22 PM

Yeah, pretty funny how a "Jr. High Teacher" knew what the f*ck was gonna go down in that ****hole while the foreign affairs "experts" and their assorted cheerleaders didn't have a clue.

except you don't have a clue. It's good thing you aren't in charge, for one because if you think you know it all from a Jr. High in Texas then you're dumber than what I thought you were or just plain full of it, and even though Jr. High teachers get to drop the f-bomb and refer to it as the s-hole, the President and his administration have to use discretion.

Also if you get fired up over one comment on a board you'd melt in a day from the criticism. But it's nice to know the guys who know it all and criticize every day, hate to take criticism theirself.

usmc-sooner

2/24/2006, 07:31 PM

just to clarify, I'm not belittling your profession at all, (much respect)

It's just your lack of common sense on your self proclaimed knowledge on this subject.

The middle east = messy nah who'd a thunk it.
What war hasn't been messy? You know how many screw ups, cover ups and lies went on during WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, The Gulf, it's not the Presidents, it's not the military, it's the chaos that is war. People can not plan for everything, We make hundreds of plans and back up plans but nobody can factor in human nature, and plans unravel quickly.

BTW having been to Iraq and Kuwait I think if you think everything is one big cluster f*&k, it's either wishful thinking on your part or an apparent complete lack of knowledge on your part.

JohnnyMack

2/24/2006, 09:35 PM

Stitch Face

2/24/2006, 10:22 PM

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060223/060223_iraqviolence_vmed_4a.widec.jpg

This can't be... Didn't he die at the end of The Phantom Menace?

TheHumanAlphabet

2/25/2006, 08:12 AM

See you blame Zarqawi, I blame hundreds of years of strife between these factions. The same strife that I said made it a bad idea to conquer Iraq in the first place.

I blame thousands of years of backward arse tribalism and illiteracy...

Zarqawi (or whatever) is just using this to stir the pot. He knows them to be vengeful backward tribalists that won't go beyond the eye for an eye mentality...

May have been a bad decision to go into Iraq. Saddam kept them in check. But we should have kept Saddam in check...

The middle east will never amount to anything as they cannot get past tribalism and "blood feud" revenge mentality. I fear we will either be forced to "Nuke 'em all to glass" to get rid of the problem or we will need to bottle up and isolate them internationally in order to prevent them from destabilizing our own governments. The ONLY reason they are in our lexicon today is because of oil. If we hadn't developed artifical countries and boundaries (in order to make it easier to get agreements with the people that were set up to be kings to get the oil "legally") then the area would still be ruled my hundreds of small beduin tribes and war yelling "indian" chanting fuggly women...

IMO of course...

jk the sooner fan

2/25/2006, 08:29 AM

i've discovered that history teachers (experts) tend to have a monopoly on hindsight and wisdom.....

SoonerProphet

2/25/2006, 09:55 AM

i've discovered that history teachers (experts) tend to have a monopoly on hindsight and wisdom.....

wasn't just hindsight, nor history teachers...many foresaw the tar pit that iraq would become after the invasion. including the prez's old man and his former secdef. alas, that pragmatism was tossed to the wind in favor a more revolutionary policy that has not fared well.

SoonerProphet

2/25/2006, 10:09 AM

just to clarify, I'm not belittling your profession at all, (much respect)

It's just your lack of common sense on your self proclaimed knowledge on this subject .

What the hell does that mean anyway?

The middle east = messy nah who'd a thunk it.
What war hasn't been messy? You know how many screw ups, cover ups and lies went on during WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, The Gulf, it's not the Presidents, it's not the military, it's the chaos that is war. People can not plan for everything, We make hundreds of plans and back up plans but nobody can factor in human nature, and plans unravel quickly .

Of all those war you mention, only one was truly fought in self defense, the others were mere wastes of American lives and treasure. The last one embroiled us in this whole mess anyways. Which leads to your last point, socially engineering of any stripe (welfarism/warfarism) is a bad deal and attempts to alter societies from via socialist means has proven to be a failure time and again

BTW having been to Iraq and Kuwait I think if you think everything is one big cluster f*&k, it's either wishful thinking on your part or an apparent complete lack of knowledge on your part.

Like this entire thread, we have had this conversation before. I don't buy into your appeal to authority arguments. It is a clusterfu*ck because it is an unwinnable situation and proven to be counterproductive in slowing the tide of radical Islam.

JohnnyMack

2/25/2006, 10:49 AM

i've discovered that history teachers (experts) tend to have a monopoly on hindsight and wisdom.....

I minored in history. That count? ;)

jk the sooner fan

2/25/2006, 11:12 AM

wasn't just hindsight, nor history teachers...many foresaw the tar pit that iraq would become after the invasion. including the prez's old man and his former secdef. alas, that pragmatism was tossed to the wind in favor a more revolutionary policy that has not fared well.

its not just limited to iraq, its EVERYTHING

jk the sooner fan

2/25/2006, 11:13 AM

I minored in history. That count? ;)

oh absolutely, you are an expert......you know everything

usmc-sooner

2/25/2006, 11:42 AM

It's people who wanna compare the invasion of Iraq to WWII that make me shake my head.

well when you find that comparison shake your head. I said wars are messy, not one war hasn't been. I shake my head when you guys want to lecture me about Iraq.

SoonerProphet

2/25/2006, 11:45 AM

its not just limited to iraq, its EVERYTHING

oh bs, i've never claimed to be an expert on say algebra, quantum mechanics, petroleum engineering, or the latin language, as just a few examples...and to continue to push absurdity into the stratosphere. nor have i ever claimed to be an expert on anything for that matter, like you i just spout my opinions.

i do have a predilection towards the social sciences.

jk the sooner fan

2/25/2006, 11:45 AM

the problem with comparing one war with another is that too many people fail to take into consideration the evolution of warfare and battle tactics

the principle of war however rarely changes

whether you put 100,000 men in camo uniforms and outfit them with rifles and grenades and send them into battle against an opponent.....or train 19 extremists to fly airplanes into buildings......the desired outcome is generally the same

jk the sooner fan

2/25/2006, 11:47 AM

oh bs, i've never claimed to be an expert on say algebra, quantum mechanics, petroleum engineering, or the latin language, as just a few examples...and to continue to push absurdity into the stratosphere. nor have i ever claimed to be an expert on anything for that matter, like you i just spout my opinions.

i do have a predilection towards the social sciences.

easy there trigger, i was talking about ALL THINGS HISTORICAL

i've not seen any historical or political situation up for discussion here that you havent sharpshooted with a buttload of hindsight

Frozen Sooner

2/25/2006, 11:50 AM

How else does once discuss history except with hindsight?

jk the sooner fan

2/25/2006, 11:51 AM

How else does once discuss history except with hindsight?

miss the point much?

SoonerProphet

2/25/2006, 11:52 AM

easy there trigger, i was talking about ALL THINGS HISTORICAL

i've not seen any historical or political situation up for discussion here that you havent sharpshooted with a buttload of hindsight

um yeah, hence the term history. analysis thereof does require a smidge.

as for political and crystal balling topics, i've given foresight to that as well...now whether that is agreed upon or not is subject to opinion.

Frozen Sooner

2/25/2006, 11:52 AM

Nope, not really. Get frustrated and lash out at people because they attempt to bring historical perspective to current events much?

usmc-sooner

2/25/2006, 11:56 AM

the problem with comparing one war with another is that too many people fail to take into consideration the evolution of warfare and battle tactics

add to that climate and terrain

fighting in the sand is much different than fighting in the Jungles of Vietnam, or the Pacifics of the Island Hopping Campaign or Europe during WWI & II or the Frozen Chosin of Korea.

also the differences between fighting for Country and for a percieved God.

also the uniformed soldier vs guerilla tactics

just all the more reasons these wars are different.

Plus you factor in the fact that the liberals want this over and done in a few short years or they label it failure. You know by their standards in and out they could label any war a failure.

FaninAma

2/25/2006, 11:57 AM

usmc-sooner

2/25/2006, 11:59 AM

Nope, not really. Get frustrated and lash out at people because they attempt to bring historical perspective to current events much?

you do know most history is told from the eyes of the teller

jk the sooner fan

2/25/2006, 12:00 PM

Frozen Sooner

2/25/2006, 12:02 PM

you do know most history is told from the eyes of the teller

Yep. Mainly because the teller is the one left alive at the end.

Big Red Ron

2/25/2006, 12:02 PM

This thread made me dumber.

SoonerProphet

2/25/2006, 12:03 PM

This is definitely a critical juncture for the country. They can either come together or allow the insurgency to rip their fledgling society apart. I have seen some signs that the country may actually be coming together and rejecting the path of civil war.

you know, i can agree with that, and i can agree that there have been some positive steps at pacification in the river valleys towards the syrian border, hr mcmaster has done some brilliant things in the tal afar area. but with sistani's comments regarding the possibility of sectarian militias as the only source of protection, khalilzad's mistatements this week, and the sunni's breaking off talks, one has to be holding their breath.

usmc-sooner

2/25/2006, 12:03 PM

here's an interesting history tidbit, the leader of Vietnam knew he couldn't defeat the U.S. Forces but he knew how weak the liberal undertow was making America, hence his famous comment we can't beat them in the fields of Vietnam but we can beat them on streets and campuses of the U.S.

usmc-sooner

2/25/2006, 12:06 PM

Yep. Mainly because the teller is the one left alive at the end.

no I'm talking about different cultures braniac:D

You know American Indian history vs what is typically taught in U.S. history etc, etc.....

it's am important tool but isn't always a be all and end all

Frozen Sooner

2/25/2006, 12:09 PM

no I'm talking about different cultures braniac:D

You know American Indian history vs what is typically taught in U.S. history etc, etc.....

it's am important tool but isn't always a be all and end all

Ah, you mean that the person relating history usually adds their own predjudices and filters it through their own cultural matrix before presenting it?

Yeah, I was aware of that. Without interpretation, history becomes a recitation of facts and dates and becomes a poor teacher.

jk the sooner fan

2/25/2006, 12:15 PM

exactly, we all have our own interpretation of history.....and apply it to our foresight of what we think will happen with current events

JohnnyMack

2/25/2006, 09:12 PM

oh absolutely, you are an expert......you know everything

You sound as sarcastic as my wife.

Vaevictis

2/25/2006, 10:18 PM

WRT the people who the people who say that experts didn't know this would happen... they should have known that it was likely a possibility. It's not like this hasn't happened before -- see TE Lawrence's (aka Lawrence of Arabia) experiences in the area in WWI.

Anyone who has ever read "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom", or heck, even watched "Lawrence of Arabia" would be utterly unsuprised by these developments. The classical scene in which Lawrence's army splits into two camps at each other's throats over a murder is particularly instructive.

It's trivial to set traditional Arabs at each other's throats -- just induce a member of one tribe to kill a member of another, and the victim's tribe will seek retribution... and the tribe of the victim of retribution will seek their own retribution, resulting in a rather long cycle of vengeance. They apparently also extend this to religious sects, not that it's suprising at all.