To bring back an old thread topic: No child left behind...

[OUstudent4life]

...I think this was started by the venerable David Earl...

So I was listening to a report on the No Child Left Behind thing...talking about Michigan schools that have entered "Stage 6," when there's only government guidance for Stages 1-5. In other words, these schools, often in very poor neighborhoods, have "failed" in the eyes of NCLB for 5 years in a row.

And it's not that the schools haven't tried. They (at least the one they were fearturing) have literally done everything that the federal guidelines and mandates required. And their test scores have consistently increased over the past 5 years.

But they're still not meeting the standards. About 60% of their students meet their "grade level" in math and reading. And the governement, neither the state or federal level, doesn't know or even have a plan as to what to tell them.

So here's the kicker, and what reminded me of DE's thread. At said school, 1/5 students is handicapped in such a way as to not be able to meet the standards, including emotionally, or even physically/mentally handicapped. Kids that aren't able to meet the standards that they're being held to, i.e. the same as everyone else. But these kids aren't the same as everyone else. Now, I'm not advocating abandoning these kids, I think it's good that they're being held to a high standard; the fact, though, that the REST of the kids, teachers, and administrators that are working their asses off and are still given a big "F" on their foreheads is frustrating.

1/5...that's 2/10. If 6/10 kids in the whole school are passing...now, my math may be rusty, but doesn't that mean that 6 out of 8 kids that have the ABILITY to pass are doing so? 75%? Doesn't that sound a LOT better than 60%? Especially since those kids HAVE done better with all the new standards? So why do they have to be brought down, and why do those teachers have to be told they're failing when they've done all the extra tutoring and other mandates that are required, and those mandates have WORKED for the kids that they can WORK for???

To make a LOOOOONG story short...do you think the government, with all the new data achieved since NCLB has been around, can modify it so it's more realistic? 'cause I do think that it has been working, and it's kinda hard for me to say that (remember, I'm a pansy-arsed liberal)...but now the goals have become TOO unrealistic.

OK, semi-rant over. I just don't know what to think about this topic now...

[Scott D]

standardized testing is a farce, that is all. When the education system's values have been hijacked for lack of a better term all in the name of the almighty test score to increase potential revenue to the school, then the system as a whole is failing everyone.

what you should think is how schools are all eventually going to end up like the one in 'Pump Up The Volume' just to remain open.

[Hatfield]

NCLB ain't worried about the childrens

[Okla-homey]

If NCLB serves only to keep public school teachers and administrators on notice that someone is keeping score and there will be a reckoning if they don't perform to expectations, the kids win.

IMHO, that, more than anything is what NCLB is about...public school accountability. Sure, there are kinks and problematic nuances, but it will probably go down in history as the single most significant government initiative to improve the state of public education of the modern era.

Normally, I disagree with federal involvment in what are essentially local matters like public schools, but in cases where unions and "educratic" self-interests have served to stifle the possibility of substantial improvement in many locales, the federal hammer is the only thing that works because its the only thing beyond the control of the local and state education apparatchniks.

[C&CDean]

If MY redneck, hillbilly, no-account coon huntin' chilrins can get a 4.0 in Lexington, by Gawd, Oklahoma public schools, any 9-year old colored child oughta be able to.

I'm just sayin'.......

[Mrs. Norm]

As a teacher, I can go on and on about this. I teach in an elementary school where 82% of our students are Hispanic. About 67% of them have been living in the USA for less than two years. However, under NCLB, if a child has been in the country 1 year, they are held accountable. The scores go on the school's. I don't know about you, but if I go to a new country, I really don't think I would do well on a test in on eyear.

Plus, the tests aren't the little booklets we got in school. They are 15-20 pages long. (Reading & Math). The Math is ALL story problems. If one can't read well, they will not pass math. The Reading is about 10-15 LOOONG, boring stories with only 4-5 questions for each passage.

The whole system needs to be revamped.

[C&CDean]

As a teacher, I can go on and on about this. I teach in an elementary school where 82% of our students are Hispanic. About 67% of them have been living in the USA for less than two years. However, under NCLB, if a child has been in the country 1 year, they are held accountable. The scores go on the school's. I don't know about you, but if I go to a new country, I really don't think I would do well on a test in on eyear.

Plus, the tests aren't the little booklets we got in school. They are 15-20 pages long. (Reading & Math). The Math is ALL story problems. If one can't read well, they will not pass math. The Reading is about 10-15 LOOONG, boring stories with only 4-5 questions for each passage.

The whole system needs to be revamped.

My dear, this is NOT what the lefties want to hear.

[Scott D]

If MY redneck, hillbilly, no-account coon huntin' chilrins can get a 4.0 in Lexington, by Gawd, Oklahoma public schools, any 9-year old colored child oughta be able to.

I'm just sayin'.......

meh, standardized tests were no problem for me because I lived in so many places I was familiar with most regionalizations of certain phrases, wordage, and slang so I could understand it a lot easier than say someone who lived in one area their whole life and gets a test using phrases unfamiliar to them. All I remember about taking those tests is being bored most of the time, and always testing out of them in my first year in that school level (ie middle school, high school).

I just don't think that standardized tests evaluate teaching or learning in the way that it should. The focus isn't on teaching it's now coaching, THAT is the problem that I have with NCLB. Schools aren't being held accountable, they are being encouraged to find shortcuts and cheat.

[C&CDean]

meh, standardized tests were no problem for me because I lived in so many places I was familiar with most regionalizations of certain phrases, wordage, and slang so I could understand it a lot easier than say someone who lived in one area their whole life and gets a test using phrases unfamiliar to them. All I remember about taking those tests is being bored most of the time, and always testing out of them in my first year in that school level (ie middle school, high school).

I just don't think that standardized tests evaluate teaching or learning in the way that it should. The focus isn't on teaching it's now coaching, THAT is the problem that I have with NCLB. Schools aren't being held accountable, they are being encouraged to find shortcuts and cheat.

Dude,

I'm a college grad - a couple times over. And I still don't possess the vocabulary you do. Don't be bitchin'. Whatever they did, they did good.

[1stTimeCaller]

meh, standardized tests were no problem for me because I lived in so many places I was familiar with most regionalizations of certain phrases, wordage, and slang so I could understand it a lot easier than say someone who lived in one area their whole life and gets a test using phrases unfamiliar to them.

Not trying to be antagonistic but could you elaborate on this statement because I don't get it. I guess I'd need some examples is what I'm saying.

[Ike]

My dear, this is NOT what the lefties want to hear.
eh, I think you are wrong there. there are a lot of problems with standardized testing, and just about everybody recognizes that. unfortunately, we don't have a better way of objectively measuring a students progress. one of the biggest problems is that it encourages teaching to the test...which if it becomes widespread will no longer make the tests a very good method of measuring a students ability, but instead a measure of how well the teacher has prepared the students for the test....which can be very different than how much the student has actually learned.

[Okla-homey]

Piggy-backing on 1TC's question, what the heck could be wrong with expecting ALL our children to be able to speak, write and understand our common English language, idioms and speech patterns?

Call me a troglodyte, but we used to have this thing in "grammar" school called "grammar" instruction. Kids in Alabama were taught to diagram or otherwise parse and understand a sentence to the same standard as kids in Maine.

Is that commonly considered too much to expect in educational circles these days? If that's the rub with NCLB, IMHO that's a non-starter of an argument. Even the ESL kids deserve to be taught and held to the same standard if they're to have an equal chance in America...which is ultimately what public education should be about.

[Soonrboy]

He's saying that a big part of being able to be successful in school is having life experiences. If you are in an impovershed area, you're working with kids whose whole world exists within the boundaries of their neighborhoods. In OKC, our schools are now more segregated than they were pre-bussing era. I"m the principal of a school that is 70 percent hispanic. The majority of these kids are learning English as a second language. These kids are at school 3 days a week until 5:00...our teachers are beating their heads getting these kids ready for the testing coming up in April. Right now, we have given up teaching social studies, science, spelling...unless it is reading driven. Reading in the morning, math in the afternoon.

Because the special ed population at my school is so high, I will have kids who are labled mentally retarded have to take the test, because I can only exempt 10 percent of my special ed population. These mentally retarded kids' scores will count to my overall school score, which is made public.

Race and language isn't the biggest obstacle to overcome. It's poverty and the culture of the poor that is the biggest obstacle, and poor isn't just about socio-economic status, it a whole moral and dilemma issue that I'm still struggling with understanding.

[C&CDean]

eh, I think you are wrong there. there are a lot of problems with standardized testing, and just about everybody recognizes that. unfortunately, we don't have a better way of objectively measuring a students progress. one of the biggest problems is that it encourages teaching to the test...which if it becomes widespread will no longer make the tests a very good method of measuring a students ability, but instead a measure of how well the teacher has prepared the students for the test....which can be very different than how much the student has actually learned.

STFU atom smasher. You don't even remember how to capitalize the first letter in a sentence.

[Soonrboy]

Piggy-backing on 1TC's question, what the heck could be wrong with expecting ALL our children to be able to speak, write and understand our common English language, idioms and speech patterns?

Call me a troglodyte, but we used to have this thing in "grammar" school called "grammar" instruction. Kids in Alabama were taught to diagram or otherwise parse and understand a sentence to the same standard as kids in Maine.

Is that commonly considered too much to expect in educational circles these days? If that's the rub with NCLB, IMHO that's a non-starter of an argument. Even the ESL kids deserve to be taught and held to the same standard if they're to have an equal chance in America...which is ultimately what public education should be about.


nothing is wrong with expecting them to learn it...but it is wrong to hold high-stakes testing within 2 years of them entering a country. Learning English is entirely different than having to learn in English.

[Ike]

STFU atom smasher. You don't even remember how to capitalize the first letter in a sentence.
that's only cause this damn board is too cheap for a grammar/spelling checker. :D

the shift key is too far away.

[Okla-homey]

one of the biggest problems is that it encourages teaching to the test...which if it becomes widespread will no longer make the tests a very good method of measuring a students ability, but instead a measure of how well the teacher has prepared the students for the test....which can be very different than how much the student has actually learned.

As long as they aren't actually teaching the test the kids will take, I don't even have a problem with "teaching the test." Objective testing works to separate those who have learned the material from those who haven't in lots of disciplines and in many areas of life from drivers license written tests to professional licensure exams. In fact and as an aside, we used to believe when I was in the training business that if you were'nt going to test a skill, no point in teaching it.

If we don't test eductational objectives objectively, how can we realistically expect to derive a quantitative measurement of whether or not the kids learn anything to an acceptable objective standard?

WTF am I missing here? Are opponents of objective tests advocating we accept a "range" of answers to a given question? Lower standards for disadvantaged kids? If so, I refuse to accept that as a worthy educational goal. That's just "dumbing down" and that doesn't benefit anyone over the long haul -- least of all kids who will someday be expected to know something in order to compete in the world and have a chance at achieving anything of substance in life.

[Soonrboy]

This is what I go to bed sick to my stomach every night about, discuss with teachers ad nauseum ...

at the elementary level, we are producing kids who are going to hate school because all we can focus on right now is getting our test scores up. This ****ing test drives everything we are doing. Gone are the cool science experiments, gone are the spelling bees, gone are the extra musical programs...things that kept school interesting for some, even kept some kids in school.

When you are not good at something, and some people's intelligences do not allow them to be good at school, you eventually quit doing it. I won't be surprised when our drop out rate sky rockets because of all this high-stakes testing going on.

Believe, I understand the need for accountability, I really do. All I want to see is growth. I know we aren't going to score as well as Nichols Hill Elementary...but we can make just as many gains as they do.

[jk the sooner fan]

Not trying to be antagonistic but could you elaborate on this statement because I don't get it. I guess I'd need some examples is what I'm saying.

apparently run on sentences were ok where he grew up ;)

personally i think Homey hit the nail on the head in his first post....

the key factor in any childs education are the parents at home.....the kid is going to either go to a home where education is a priority over mom and dad's partying ways.....or the kid is going to take a back seat to the parents selfishness

my kids grew up in schools on military bases, all over the country....and for the most part, the parents were supportive of the school and teachers..and the test results reflected that

[Ike]

As long as they aren't actually teaching the test the kids will take, I don't even have a problem with "teaching the test." Objective testing works to separate those who have learned the material from those who haven't in lots of disciplines and in many areas of life from drivers license written tests to professional licensure exams. In fact and as an aside, we used to believe when I was in the training business that if you were'nt going to test a skill, no point in teaching it.

If we don't test eductational objectives objectively, how can we realistically expect to derive a quantitative measurement of whether or not the kids learn anything to an acceptable objective standard?

WTF am I missing here? Are opponents of objective tests advocating we accept a "range" of answers to a given question? Lower standards for disadvantaged kids? If so, I refuse to accept that as a worthy educational goal. That's just "dumbing down" and that doesn't benefit anyone over the long haul -- least of all kids who will someday be expected to know something in order to compete in the world and have a chance at achieving anything of substance in life.

I don't oppose objective testing at all. you have to have objective testing. but the issue is that in todays standardized tests, there are certain types of problems/questions that get repeated ad nauseum and any teacher seeking job security is just going to drill those into the kids heads as much as possible. granted, for some things, this isn't a problem. but in areas like math and science which are 'cumulative subjects' this can hurt a kid in the long run of their education, if a teacher decides to just teach the kinds of problems that appear on the tests rather than moving on after doing so to the material that will aptly prepare them for the next level, and expand their education.

this kind of stuff may be just fine for elementary school kids, and even more fine for the slower kids, but the more advanced kids are completely failed by this method. they wind up going to school and learning very little.

[Mrs. Norm]

He's saying that a big part of being able to be successful in school is having life experiences. If you are in an impovershed area, you're working with kids whose whole world exists within the boundaries of their neighborhoods. In OKC, our schools are now more segregated than they were pre-bussing era. I"m the principal of a school that is 70 percent hispanic. The majority of these kids are learning English as a second language. These kids are at school 3 days a week until 5:00...our teachers are beating their heads getting these kids ready for the testing coming up in April. Right now, we have given up teaching social studies, science, spelling...unless it is reading driven. Reading in the morning, math in the afternoon.

Because the special ed population at my school is so high, I will have kids who are labled mentally retarded have to take the test, because I can only exempt 10 percent of my special ed population. These mentally retarded kids' scores will count to my overall school score, which is made public.

Race and language isn't the biggest obstacle to overcome. It's poverty and the culture of the poor that is the biggest obstacle, and poor isn't just about socio-economic status, it a whole moral and dilemma issue that I'm still struggling with understanding.

Absolutely agree! These kids go home to no food, no electricity, very unstable families. The last thing on their minds, or their parents for that matter, is taking a test. However, most of them really want to do well. They come into Kindergarten so far behind that it's hard to get them "on-level" in one year.

[Soonrboy]

apparently run on sentences were ok where he grew up ;)

personally i think Homey hit the nail on the head in his first post....

the key factor in any childs education are the parents at home.....the kid is going to either go to a home where education is a priority over mom and dad's partying ways.....or the kid is going to take a back seat to the parents selfishness

my kids grew up in schools on military bases, all over the country....and for the most part, the parents were supportive of the school and teachers..and the test results reflected that

it's not just partying ways. single-parent housing, kids being raised by tired grandparents...we have a lot of "throw-away" kids in our society that are going to be feeding us one day.

[Sooner Born Sooner Bred]

NCLB is a crock of an unfunded mandate. The schools are encouraging teachers to prep the kids for the tests instead of teaching them the 3Rs.

[C&CDean]

I've sent 5 kids through public school. This "test" y'all speak of must be something they're doing in the inner-city ghetto schools. My kids still bring home stacks of homework. Their books even say "High School Algebra" and "Biology" on the covers.

[Mrs. Norm]

Soonrboy has brought up same great points! Our school also isn't focusing on Social Studies, Science, or any other subject that isn't Reading and Math. I am in a Reading First school. Grades K-3 are involved in the program. To get our Reading scores up, these teachers must do 1 1/2 hours of Reading everyday. This DOES NOT include Spelling or English. A state worker comes in about once a month to evaluate; we have Reading coaches in our school to make sure teachers are following "the Reading First rules". Once Reading is finished, you may get all of the other subjects in. When you factor in Lunch/Recess, Music, PE, etc....a teacher might have 3 hours to do Spelling, English, Math, Social Studies, and Science. There isn't enough time in the day! Goodness, I have to go to bed. I'm getting a headache.

[jk the sooner fan]

texas has the "Taks" test, kids in certain grades HAVE to pass it to move on to the next grade...schools are graded on overall test scores

the teachers DO teach the test, no doubt......but i've found that repetition of the "3 R's" isnt necessarily a bad thing......my youngest is a product of public schools and is taking classes i'd never dreamed of taking when i was in HS

[Mrs. Norm]

I've sent 5 kids through public school. This "test" y'all speak of must be something they're doing in the inner-city ghetto schools. My kids still bring home stacks of homework. Their books even say "High School Algebra" and "Biology" on the covers.
This "test" is what is called the CRT. It is state wide. Kids start taking it in the 3rd grade. The kids still have textbooks, stacks of homework, etc. However, the tests are so different than what they were when we took them.

[Ike]

I've sent 5 kids through public school. This "test" y'all speak of must be something they're doing in the inner-city ghetto schools. My kids still bring home stacks of homework. Their books even say "High School Algebra" and "Biology" on the covers.
some schools are better about it than others, and yeah, usually its the inner city schools that are worst about it. but not always. the point though, is that those schools that aren't that great to begin with will employ every possible method to artificially inflate those test scores, sometimes with success, which is even more detrimental to the kids.

[Soonrboy]

I've sent 5 kids through public school. This "test" y'all speak of must be something they're doing in the inner-city ghetto schools. My kids still bring home stacks of homework. Their books even say "High School Algebra" and "Biology" on the covers.

Yeah, your kids will take EOI tests..end of instruction test. At the elementary level, it's the CRT like Mrs. Norm said...only the math and reading scores are released and compared.

[BeetDigger]

texas has the "Taks" test, kids in certain grades HAVE to pass it to move on to the next grade...schools are graded on overall test scores

the teachers DO teach the test, no doubt......but i've found that repetition of the "3 R's" isnt necessarily a bad thing......my youngest is a product of public schools and is taking classes i'd never dreamed of taking when i was in HS


Major word.


Our school systems graduate kids and give them a High School diploma. I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect them to have the ability to read it.

[mdklatt]

As long as they aren't actually teaching the test the kids will take, I don't even have a problem with "teaching the test."

The problem with no child left behind is that no child gets ahead. When I was in school we spent a significant amount of time preparing for the Texas basic skills test (emphasis on basic), even in honors classes. If that's all kids are learning nowadays the global economy is going to eat our lunch.

[Ike]

The problem with no child left behind is that no child gets ahead. When I was in school we spent a significant amount of time preparing for the Texas basic skills test (emphasis on basic), even in honors classes. If that's all kids are learning nowadays the global economy is going to eat our lunch.


bingo.

I'll back this up with some anecdotal evidence....
when my mom first went back to teaching after several years of being a stay at home mom, she initially got a job at a middle school in south OKC. this was kind of a run down school, had a bunch of kids that were already starting to get involved in gang activity, etc, etc. probably not as bad as a school in inner city chicago, but certainly nowhere near being the cream of the OKC crop.

anyway, almost right off the bat, she's teaching the most advanced math they have in the shool, which compared to what I had taken at the time wasn't much. after a couple years, she gets this pair of twins in her class that could only be described as 'freak-of-nature-smart'. these kids blew through her lessons in nuthin flat and came back asking for more, which she was more than happy to oblige them with. she realized pretty quickly that her lessons, while adequate for the pace of the class were not enough for them, so she worked out a deal with them. she'd continue with her planned lessons for the rest of the class, and accelerate the lessons for these two. while they were in her class they would work on out of books intended for higher levels, and they essentially ate lunch in her class, or stayed after school or came before school to get lessons that were geared toward their level.

Anyway, she knew at some point, she'd completely run out of material to give them. She talked about this to her principal and the school counselors, and while the obvious course of action, in her mind, was to recommend that they apply to OSSM. The kids had expressed interest in going there anyway, and my mom was completely willing to help them get in in any way possible. However, the principal and counselors were DEAD SET against encouraging them in any way to go to OSSM. In fact, the counselor, in her meetings with the kids was trying her damndest to DISCOURAGE them from applying. the reason being that they so blew the curve on the standardized tests, that it made the school look much better than it really was. they couldn't afford to lose these kids, as it would put a significant dent in the schools average test scores.

well, that ticked my mom off more than anything, and her first act of insubordination, or whatever you might call it was to tell the kids exactly that and encourage them to apply. she wrote glowing recommendation letters for them, they got in, and from what I understand, they did amazingly well there. and went off to some ivy league school where they again performed amazingly.

But who's to say that had they had a different teacher that teacher would have done the same thing? had everything gone according to the schools plan, these kids would likely have never gotten ahead at all. But this is how an administrators vision can get clouded when everything is based on test scores. the best interests for each individual kid gets overshadowed by the desire for job security on the part of teachers and administrators.

[Okla-homey]

the best interests for each individual kid gets overshadowed by the desire for job security on the part of teachers and administrators.

Yes, and evidently a very common problem among teachers and administrators in public schools nowadays. At least now under NCLB teachers and administrators can no longer safely ignore the 10-20% of kids who got marginalized in my day and were allowed to sit in the back of the room and doodle, sleep or drool. Now, it would seem they have to engage those kids too, hence the name: "No Child Left Behind."

I submit the gifted kids are very probably going to be fine anyway. The trick is getting the kids at the other end of the IQ scale into the game because they have a right to an education too. Even teaching them the basic skills they need to perform reasonably on the tests is a darn sight more than they used to get when I was in school.

Look, I know its a tough gig, and the folks who post here seem like really committed educators truly worthy of that honorable title. I like and admire the teachers I know. My sister is an OK public school teacher, my fav s-i-l is a KS public school teacher and my mom was a public school employee.

Seems to me the problem is there are that 20% or so who remain in the teaching profession who simply don't give a rats-arse about anything but their paycheck and keeping their gig. I honestly believe it was that segment of the profession NCLB was drafted to confront. If administrators and teachers unions had been willing to police their own ranks and demand a certain level of performance among their colleagues the federal government involvment (in the form of NCLB) would not have been necessary.

[Okla-homey]

At the elementary level, it's the CRT like Mrs. Norm said...only the math and reading scores are released and compared.

I submit that's because reading and math are all that really matters at the elementary level. If the kid can't read or do basic math, does it really matter if she can't tell you who the first president was or doesn't know the difference between an artery and a vein?

[OUstudent4life]

So what do we do about the thousands of schools that are about to be Stage 6, a decent majority of which (I'm betting) don't "deserve" to be there? Especially when the administration and teachers have already done everything asked of them?

[Okla-homey]

So what do we do about the thousands of schools that are about to be Stage 6, a decent majority of which (I'm betting) don't "deserve" to be there? Especially when the administration and teachers have already done everything asked of them?

Perhaps in that case they should get better administrators and teachers, you know, ones who might have new ideas that work? We fire public school coaches when they turn in repeated losing seasons. Underperforming teachers and administrators should be under the same pressure IMHO.

[Harry Beanbag]

Some of this thread sounds like descriptions of yet another problem caused by illegal immigration. Something that Bush doesn't seem to give two ****s about for some reason.

[jk the sooner fan]

Some of this thread sounds like descriptions of yet another problem caused by illegal immigration. Something that Bush doesn't seem to give two ****s about for some reason.

i'm with you there, i'm no fan of his immigration policy....

[David Earl]

Soonrboy has brought up same great points! Our school also isn't focusing on Social Studies, Science, or any other subject that isn't Reading and Math. I am in a Reading First school. Grades K-3 are involved in the program. To get our Reading scores up, these teachers must do 1 1/2 hours of Reading everyday. This DOES NOT include Spelling or English. A state worker comes in about once a month to evaluate; we have Reading coaches in our school to make sure teachers are following "the Reading First rules". Once Reading is finished, you may get all of the other subjects in. When you factor in Lunch/Recess, Music, PE, etc....a teacher might have 3 hours to do Spelling, English, Math, Social Studies, and Science. There isn't enough time in the day!

My wife, a third grade teacher, has griped a LOT about this very issue. They spend so much time on Reading First they can't give them the Social Studies foundation needed for later grades.

[David Earl]

So here's the kicker, and what reminded me of DE's thread. At said school, 1/5 students is handicapped in such a way as to not be able to meet the standards, including emotionally, or even physically/mentally handicapped. Kids that aren't able to meet the standards that they're being held to, i.e. the same as everyone else. But these kids aren't the same as everyone else. Now, I'm not advocating abandoning these kids, I think it's good that they're being held to a high standard; the fact, though, that the REST of the kids, teachers, and administrators that are working hard and are still given a big "F" on their foreheads is frustrating.

This paragraph NAILS the problem with NCLB. NCLB must die or it will kill public schools.

[Scott D]

Not trying to be antagonistic but could you elaborate on this statement because I don't get it. I guess I'd need some examples is what I'm saying.

I'm more referring to the regionalization of slang and terminologies. (ie..Sofa v. Couch v. Divan or Soda v. Pop v. Coke). In a national standardized test, they use one set of phrasology that may be unfamiliar in various places and that is an immediate handicap. That's not including the children in more than a few areas for whom English is a second language which would be a secondary handicap in regards to the testing.

NCLB doesn't address the problem that is increased class size having the negative effect on children being able to get much of any one on one teaching from their teachers. The end result is that more children 'find their way through the cracks'. They claim NCLB is suppossed to eliminate that issue....I think the opposite is true, it's going to create more 'slipping through the cracks'. Afterall, all you need to do today is just do well enough to 'pass' the test.

Then you take schools in the poorer and more impoverished areas who are behind the 8 ball financially in the first place, and the odds are stacked against those schools even further. Not every teacher in those schools is going to be a Jaime Escalante, and none of the administrators now will be a Joe Clark. Then again, I also think that society has failed the education system more than the education system has failed the children.

[Soonrboy]

N/m

[Scott D]

Dude,

I'm a college grad - a couple times over. And I still don't possess the vocabulary you do. Don't be bitchin'. Whatever they did, they did good.

Heh, I'm only about looking for what's fair and finding the middle ground on the matter...pretty much like anything political :) And I think I did good despite the education system. :D

[OUstudent4life]

Perhaps in that case they should get better administrators and teachers, you know, ones who might have new ideas that work? We fire public school coaches when they turn in repeated losing seasons. Underperforming teachers and administrators should be under the same pressure IMHO.

The principal of the featured school actually has told the state: "If you can find someone that can do more, bring them in."

The "new ideas" are "mandated" by NCLB, depending on what stage you're in. This school has done ALL of the new ideas. And in my opinion, these teachers aren't underperforming...would you fire a coach that is forced by conditions beyond his/her control to only play 4 kids on a basketball team and ends up with a losing record?

And this isn't just one school...there were hundreds in Michigan alone, and in the next two years the numbers are going to hit the THOUSANDS across the nation. In at least this small sample, it appears that these schools are being labeled as a failure when A) they've shown progress, and B) they don't know what next to do, because the law governing them no longer applies, all balanced against the fact that they're being called a failure because they're holding a small subset of kids to the same standard, when those kids CAN'T be held to the same standard.

It's like saying OU football is a failure, because OSU football is crappy and they're in the same state and both state-funded schools, so football in the state as a whole is a failure :D.

[1stTimeCaller]

I'm more referring to the regionalization of slang and terminologies. (ie..Sofa v. Couch v. Divan or Soda v. Pop v. Coke). In a national standardized test, they use one set of phrasology that may be unfamiliar in various places and that is an immediate handicap. That's not including the children in more than a few areas for whom English is a second language which would be a secondary handicap in regards to the testing.

NCLB doesn't address the problem that is increased class size having the negative effect on children being able to get much of any one on one teaching from their teachers. The end result is that more children 'find their way through the cracks'. They claim NCLB is suppossed to eliminate that issue....I think the opposite is true, it's going to create more 'slipping through the cracks'. Afterall, all you need to do today is just do well enough to 'pass' the test.

Then you take schools in the poorer and more impoverished areas who are behind the 8 ball financially in the first place, and the odds are stacked against those schools even further. Not every teacher in those schools is going to be a Jaime Escalante, and none of the administrators now will be a Joe Clark. Then again, I also think that society has failed the education system more than the education system has failed the children.

Thanks. But isn't that a part of reading comprehension?

I lived in the same house from birth until I left for college. Either the standardized tests that I took all used the terminology that I grew up hearing or the fact that I read books and stories outside of the classroom helped me.

[Stoop Dawg]

They come into Kindergarten so far behind that it's hard to get them "on-level" in one year.


This "test" is what is called the CRT. It is state wide. Kids start taking it in the 3rd grade.

I don't know much about NCLB. Why do you have to get them "on-level" one year after Kindergarten if testing doesn't start until 3rd grade? I don't get it.

And if testing doesn't start until 3rd grade, shouldn't that be enough time to teach a kid to read?

And also, I'd like to hear some of the resident teachers/administrator's opinions on simply holding kids back until they can pass the test. I'm not sure how NCLB accounts for this, but I've always thought that too much emphasis was placed on age instead of skill level. If a kid is 12 but doesn't speak the language, what's wrong with starting them a grade or two back? Does NCLB allow for that? What's wrong with saying "We're not leaving you behind, we're spending an extra year on you - or two".

[Stoop Dawg]

At said school, 1/5 students is handicapped in such a way as to not be able to meet the standards, including emotionally, or even physically/mentally handicapped.

Sorry if this sounds skeptical, but how was this statistic calculated and what criteria was used to discern whether a child is "able" to meet the standard? Surely the program accounts for mental disability?

[OUstudent4life]

Sorry if this sounds skeptical, but how was this statistic calculated and what criteria was used to discern whether a child is "able" to meet the standard? Surely the program accounts for mental disability?

that's the problem. NCLB allows you to "not count" only 5% of those with a mental disability. 5-freaking %. The rest get grouped in together. Like the kids at DE's Science Fair. NCLB wants to hold the kids to "higher standards..." and it's the teachers' fault when the kids can't meet those standards.

Like I said, I'm all about holding the kids to higher standards. I'm also all about not punishing the other kids and teachers that are labeled as failures by a flawed system.

[Stitch Face]

the problem is there are that 20% or so who remain in the teaching profession who simply don't give a rats-arse about anything but their paycheck

Who wouldn't be in it for the money when you're bringing home those crazy teacher benjamins?

Not many college-educated professionals can say they're pullin' down four-fitty a week, take-home...

[Stoop Dawg]

that's the problem. NCLB allows you to "not count" only 5% of those with a mental disability. 5-freaking %. The rest get grouped in together. Like the kids at DE's Science Fair. NCLB wants to hold the kids to "higher standards..." and it's the teachers' fault when the kids can't meet those standards.

Hmmm, I doubted your statistic so I went looking. I found this:


In the most recent data (school year 2000-2001) published by the U.S. Department of Education, even a very conservative count shows that a far greater percentage of school aged (ages 6-21) children in special education have a primary disability that is not related to their cognitive or intellectual ability than those who do.

There are 13 eligibility categories within the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) -- the federal law that creates the special education program. By definition, nine of these categories do not include cognitive or intellectual impairments (speech or language impairments, emotional disturbance, specific learning disabilities, hearing impairments, orthopedic impairments, other health impairments, visual impairments, deaf blindness, autism).

In school year 2000-2001, the categories of students that did not include cognitive impairments totaled 86.5% of children eligible for special education under IDEA. The categories that could include cognitive impairments totaled 13.4%.

So, 86.5% of "disabled" kids are not disabled in cognitive functions. 5% could still be seen as low, but not ridiculous. Then take into account "accomodations" and "alternate testing" and suddenly 5% isn't seeming all that crazy to me.

http://www.wrightslaw.com/nclb/info/myths.realities.napas.htm

Let me reiterate that I don't know jack about NCLB and I'm not trying to defend it (as that article appears to be). But I always investigate statistics - especially when thrown out by the media. More often that not they are either taken out of context or simply wrong.

[Mrs. Norm]

I don't know much about NCLB. Why do you have to get them "on-level" one year after Kindergarten if testing doesn't start until 3rd grade? I don't get it.

And if testing doesn't start until 3rd grade, shouldn't that be enough time to teach a kid to read?

And also, I'd like to hear some of the resident teachers/administrator's opinions on simply holding kids back until they can pass the test. I'm not sure how NCLB accounts for this, but I've always thought that too much emphasis was placed on age instead of skill level. If a kid is 12 but doesn't speak the language, what's wrong with starting them a grade or two back? Does NCLB allow for that? What's wrong with saying "We're not leaving you behind, we're spending an extra year on you - or two".

Let's say a child comes into Kindergarten not knowing their ABC's, numbers, or colors (yes, we have SEVERAL that do not know this basic information). Plus, more than half of the children do not know English...at all. The teachers are not getting to the skills they should hit because they are trying to get the kids to know the basics and getting them to understand English.

These kids go on to first grade "behind". So, the first grade teachers are making up for what the kids didn't get in first grade.

Every year, the kids are "behind". Are they learning? Absolutely! They are just not learning what they need to for these tests. Teachers are always trying to play catch-up from the year before.

[Stoop Dawg]

Thanks for taking the time to respond, I appreciate it. But...


These kids go on to first grade "behind".

Why? Why not let them stay in K until they are ready for 1st?

[Mrs. Norm]

Thanks for taking the time to respond, I appreciate it. But...



Why? Why not let them stay in K until they are ready for 1st?

Holding kids back is a hot issue in schools. It really comes down to the principal. My principal doesn't believe in holding kids back...at all. She believes that "if they didn't get it the first time, they won't get it the second time". (I disagree, but there's nothing I can do). Also with NCLB, holding kids back is another issue. It's very frustrating as a teacher. There are kids that I know would do great if they had one more year to get caught up.

[Ike]

Hmmm, I doubted your statistic so I went looking. I found this:



So, 86.5% of "disabled" kids are not disabled in cognitive functions. 5% could still be seen as low, but not ridiculous. Then take into account "accomodations" and "alternate testing" and suddenly 5% isn't seeming all that crazy to me.

http://www.wrightslaw.com/nclb/info/myths.realities.napas.htm

Let me reiterate that I don't know jack about NCLB and I'm not trying to defend it (as that article appears to be). But I always investigate statistics - especially when thrown out by the media. More often that not they are either taken out of context or simply wrong.


what happened to the other 0.1%?

[Stoop Dawg]

what happened to the other 0.1%?

NCLB is a bitch.

[Stoop Dawg]

Holding kids back is a hot issue in schools. It really comes down to the principal. My principal doesn't believe in holding kids back...at all.

Then I'd say your principal may be part of the problem. How does holding kids back affect NCLB "scores" (or whatever)? Are schools penalized for it? Seems like they shouldn't be, but it may be more complicated than I think it is. Things usually are.

[Mrs. Norm]

Then I'd say your principal may be part of the problem. How does holding kids back affect NCLB "scores" (or whatever)? Are schools penalized for it? Seems like they shouldn't be, but it may be more complicated than I think it is. Things usually are.
I'm not sure if a school is penalized for retention rates. But, philosophies of teachers/administrators run how a school/classroom is run. Not everybody agrees and it can make things difficult. However, just like any job, a "boss" can make a place great, mediocre, or horrible. It's no different in a school. However, as soonrboy can tell you, being a principal is a very hard job. I thought about getting a Masters in Administration. Now, I'm not so sure.

[Stoop Dawg]

Fair enough. However I think that I tend to agree with Homey here. NCLB should hold your principal accountable (he's the boss, after all). If he thinks not holding kids back is the way to go, fine. But if he doesn't get his scores, he's out. To use your business analogy, I think NCLB = profits. You don't get them, you don't keep your job.

[Ike]

going back to the nine categories of disability that are not intellectually impairing....

this is an interesting issue, and while it may be true that these conditions don't impair one's intellectual ability (I say may because I'm unsure about autism), what it most certainly does is create a problem for teachers. Yes, I understand that this is the reason for the law, but these disabilities are each unique and most likely require a certain kind of approach to get the information to each student. This can create a nightmare for teachers. on the one hand, you have to get the lessons through to the general class, and then on the other, you have to re-frame/re-teach/revisit/etc the same lesson to the LD kids. or you can have special classes for the LD kids, but still with 9 categories, it's difficult (and maybe impossible) to make sure that the same lesson can get through to all 9 types of LD. therefore, you wind up covering less material in the same amount of time as you would for a class of 'normal' kids.
obviously, the best alternative would be to group kids by the specific disability that they have, but I imagine that most schools have nowhere near the funds available to pull off such a thing.

[Mrs. Norm]

Fair enough. However I think that I tend to agree with Homey here. NCLB should hold your principal accountable (he's the boss, after all). If he thinks not holding kids back is the way to go, fine. But if he doesn't get his scores, he's out. To use your business analogy, I think NCLB = profits. You don't get them, you don't keep your job.
I agree 100%! I know it's possible to get these kids to succeed. I have worked my *** off; I go to any workshop I can to get new ideas; I put my heart and soul in my lessons; I do anything and everything to get the kids interested. My students' scores shoot up every 9 weeks (we take 3 practice tests before the "big one"). If every teacher did this, and administrators did their part, we wouldn't have to have NCLB.

[SoonerObsession]

I'm lucky my principal at my school is not against retaining students that really struggle. Our problem is that many parents refuse to do this because of pride. They don't want their child to be labled as a child that was held back. Even though the principal, classroom teacher, and psychometrist recommend another year to mature and grow, the parents are too stubborn to allow it. Even when we recommend Transtional First grade to a Kindergarten graduate who is not quite ready for first grade, they will more times than not send them to 1st grade. It's really frustrating when parents care more about their image than what's truly best for their child.

[Okla-homey]

I agree 100%! I know it's possible to get these kids to succeed. I have worked my *** off; I go to any workshop I can to get new ideas; I put my heart and soul in my lessons; I do anything and everything to get the kids interested. My students' scores shoot up every 9 weeks (we take 3 practice tests before the "big one"). If every teacher did this, and administrators did their part, we wouldn't have to have NCLB.\

Yay Mrs Norm. You have hit the nail squarely on the head and driven it home with a single bash!:D :D :D

To restate, my official position seems on its face 'zackly the same as yours.

IOW, because there appeared to be a substantial percentage of educators in this country who were not as conscientious as thou art, and there has heretofore been no the means of holding them accountable, the gubmint had to step in and start keeping score.

[12]

Dude,

I'm a college grad - a couple times over. And I still don't possess the vocabulary you do. Don't be bitchin'. Whatever they did, they did good.

...would have been better with "done" in place of "did", but still...

[Stoop Dawg]

I agree 100%! I know it's possible to get these kids to succeed. I have worked my *** off; I go to any workshop I can to get new ideas; I put my heart and soul in my lessons; I do anything and everything to get the kids interested. My students' scores shoot up every 9 weeks (we take 3 practice tests before the "big one"). If every teacher did this, and administrators did their part, we wouldn't have to have NCLB.

Not only should NCLB hold those who underperform accountable, it should also reward those who generate the most "profit". If it were up to me, the teachers going above and beyond (and really making a difference) would get a big, juicy bonus.

[Soonrboy]

Not only should NCLB hold those who underperform accountable, it should also reward those who generate the most "profit". If it were up to me, the teachers going above and beyond (and really making a difference) would get a big, juicy bonus.


amen..it's all about growth..not where your starting, but growth.