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Jay C. Upchurch
2/22/2006, 12:49 AM
Just a sample of how crazy college basketball can be, and so OU fans can rest assured their beloved Sooners aren't alone when it comes to suffering through wild momentum swings during the course of games...

All of this happened just tonight (2/21/2006) when there were only a handful of games on the college schedule...

Alabama blew an 18-point second-half lead at Arkansas and lost 65-63...

No. 3 UConn was outscored at home 25-2 during one stretch of the second half against Notre Dame, surrendering a 19-point lead in the process. Somehow the Huskies recovered to win in overtime...

Unranked Virginia used a 26-6 first-half run to put 11th-ranked Pitt in its rearview mirror en route to a 72-58 win...

Missouri, playing at home, owned a 47-37 lead over Texas A&M with just over 11 minutes to play. To that point, the Tigers had shot 51 percent from the field. Over the final 11 minutes, Mizzou managed to put up a grand total of four points. They lost 54-51.

-----------

It's a crazy, crazy game at times. You can go down the scoreboard every nite and see these same kind of examples of scoring runs, momentum swings, blown leads, wild comebacks....

I realize that doesn't make it any less frustrating at times when the Sooners find themselves on the wrong side of one of those scoring runs... but if you look at how the majority of those games turn out, well, OU usually finds a way to win. Not always, but usually.

oumartin
2/22/2006, 01:18 AM
true jay, but it happens to our Sooners more times than it should.

birddog
2/22/2006, 02:21 AM
Exactly. Seems like EVERY game we have a double digit lead in the 2nd half and it ends up being a 1-2 point game. Just wish we could put those teams away and win by double digits.
We beat Texas by double digits. I will give them that. Then again, OSU beat the hell outta 'em. So, yeah, basketball is crazy.

okienole3
2/22/2006, 08:17 AM
http://www.thefunnypage.com/sunshine/sunshine.gif

How many of those teams have led by at least 7 points in all of their losses?

colleyvillesooner
2/22/2006, 09:48 AM
Jay, it's a lost cause. We'll never be a great team until we get another coach who they can hate.

GDC
2/22/2006, 09:51 AM
I'm just now reaching the point in the season where I can watch part of any non-OU basketball game, or maybe that was just because Texass was losing big.

okienole3
2/22/2006, 09:57 AM
Jay, it's a lost cause. We'll never be a great team until we get another coach who they can hate.


Facts are facts. I realize we could do a whole lot worse. I think most people, including myself, want to like Sampson. We are just tired of seeing the same ole' crap game after game, year after year.

GDC
2/22/2006, 10:01 AM
We'll never do better than Tubbs, Coale, and Sampson as far as basketball coaches at OU.

Jay C. Upchurch
2/22/2006, 10:23 AM
We are just tired of seeing the same ole' crap game after game, year after year.

Averaging 26 wins a season over the last six years is usually not considered crap, but I suppose there is just no pleasing some people. No matter how successful you are.

colleyvillesooner
2/22/2006, 10:26 AM
Facts are facts. I realize we could do a whole lot worse. I think most people, including myself, want to like Sampson. We are just tired of seeing the same ole' crap game after game, year after year.

Yeah, that was such a good fact about our seven losses that no one here knew that till it was fed to them by the ESPN.

Fact is every team blows leads and loses, and teams blow leads and win. You do realize that a 7 point lead in a basketball game is nothing, right? That back to back 3's and it's a one point game.

SoonerBBall
2/22/2006, 10:36 AM
Our fans could bitch about anything. Just take heart that most of them are football fans who have no clue about most things basketball related. They just want a team who will score 90 points a game, win or lose, and that isn't a real basketball fan.

Rock Hard Corn Frog
2/22/2006, 10:37 AM
No. 3 UConn was outscored at home 25-2 during one stretch of the second half against Notre Dame, surrendering a 19-point lead in the process. Somehow the Huskies recovered to win in overtime...


That can't be possible. Only OU gives up big scoring runs. UConn should fire Calhoun.:D

TopDawg
2/22/2006, 10:39 AM
Exactly. Seems like EVERY game we have a double digit lead in the 2nd half and it ends up being a 1-2 point game. Just wish we could put those teams away and win by double digits.
We beat Texas by double digits. I will give them that. Then again, OSU beat the hell outta 'em. So, yeah, basketball is crazy.

It may seem that way, but it's not the case. The games in bold are the ones that fit your first statement (blown a double digit lead) and the games in italics fit your second statement (put those teams away) since conference play began:

Nebraska: Fell apart in the final few minutes and blew a (as best I can tell) 6 point lead to lose by 1.
Missouri: Had a 7 point lead early in the 2nd half and lost by 2.
Texas A&M: Hung around in an ugly game to get a 1 point win.
Texas Tech: Won by 12.
Baylor: Won by 30.
Texas: Won by 10.
Texas A&M: Had a 14 point lead, it was cut to 3, won by 8.
Kansas: Fell apart toward the end of the game and lost a 16 point lead.
OSU: Had an 18 point lead cut to 6, won by 8.
Baylor: Won by 28.
Colorado: Lead by 5 at half, couldn't hit shots in 2nd half, lost by 9.
Iowa State: Lead by 4 early in 2nd, trailed by 6 with 53 seconds left, won by 1.
Texas Tech: Lead by 10 with 7 minutes left, trailed by 2 with 1 minute left, won by 1.

By my count we've blown 2 double digit leads. Both times on the road. And we've "put them away" 6 times. Even if you don't want to count the OSU and A&M games, since they cut our lead down to 6 and 3, respectively, fine. That makes it 2 blown, 4 put away. And if you don't want to count Baylor for obvious reasons, then it's still 2 games to 2.

You can criticize OU by saying that some teams haven't blown a 7-point lead in all of their losses, but it seems kinda counter-productive. The reason other teams haven't blown 7-point leads in their losses is because they haven't had 7-point leads in their losses. Sure, it's a frustrating way to lose...but, to me anyway, it's more encouraging than getting run out of the gym, trailing from start to finish.

NickZeppelin
2/22/2006, 10:50 AM
I consider the OSU and Texas games the same type games. The only reason those got closer is because of late 3's that went in.

Kansas got a great run together and the officiating helped them more. We coudln't get a foul called so we couldn't win the game at the line.

okienole3
2/22/2006, 10:53 AM
We had a 10 point lead against Nova and lost by 11.

Led by 10 early in the second half against Nebraska and lost by 1.

The same ole' crap that I refer to is the 5, 6, 7, or 8 minute scoring droughts and early round tourney exits.

colleyvillesooner
2/22/2006, 10:57 AM
We had a 10 point lead against Nova and lost by 11.

Led by 10 early in the second half against Nebraska and lost by 1.

The same ole' crap that I refer to is the 5, 6, 7, or 8 minute scoring droughts and early round tourney exits.

Villanova is the #2 team in the country and we were playing at their place, which is a known tough place to play.

A 10 point lead early in the 2nd half isn't like a 20 point lead. 10 point defecits are made up all the time.

NickZeppelin
2/22/2006, 10:59 AM
First of all are early round exits that bad? Only 32 teams in Div 1 make it to the 2nd round. How many Div 1 teams are there? About 220? There are about 200 teams that would rather be going to the round of 32 team every year. 150+ that would rather be in the NCAA Tourney. So being in the NCAA Tourney is a privledge on it's own.

Kelvin is 11-6 in the NCAA Tourney since 1999. That's 8th among all current coaches.

okienole3
2/22/2006, 11:03 AM
Villanova is the #2 team in the country and we were playing at their place, which is a known tough place to play.

A 10 point lead early in the 2nd half isn't like a 20 point lead. 10 point defecits are made up all the time.


Just pointing out some other double digit leads that we have blown.

SoonerBBall
2/22/2006, 11:09 AM
We had a 10 point lead against Nova and lost by 11.

Led by 10 early in the second half against Nebraska and lost by 1.

The same ole' crap that I refer to is the 5, 6, 7, or 8 minute scoring droughts and early round tourney exits.

Like I said, you are obviously not a basketball fan, or you are an NBA fan. Either way, you don't realize that lots of teams go on scoring droughts. Someone just pointed out that ND went on a 25-2 run against UCONN. That means they went a loooong time without scoring.

NormanPride
2/22/2006, 11:35 AM
Are we ashamed of the Nova loss now? They were a little better than we were at their own place, and they widened the final margin with foul shots.

And the team that played Nebraska is nothing like this team. Why even compare early losses to this team? It's makeup and strategy has changed fairly dramatically.

TopDawg
2/22/2006, 11:35 AM
Just pointing out some other double digit leads that we have blown.

Sorry I missed the Nebraska one.

You went out of conference to find one more. Would you like me to count up the out of conference games in which we held on to a double digit lead?

okienole3
2/22/2006, 11:36 AM
Like I said, you are obviously not a basketball fan, or you are an NBA fan. Either way, you don't realize that lots of teams go on scoring droughts. Someone just pointed out that ND went on a 25-2 run against UCONN. That means they went a loooong time without scoring.

UCONN scored 2 points in about 8 minutes. But, that is beside the point. That is only one example. OU goes on one of those droughts just about ever game. I would like to see what our longest droughts have been in our games this year.

colleyvillesooner
2/22/2006, 11:38 AM
Sorry I missed the Nebraska one.

You went out of conference to find one more. Would you like me to count up the out of conference games in which we held on to a double digit lead?

You could but those games don't really count. We should win those :rolleyes:

We led nebraska by 10 or 8 for about 4 mins trading baskets, then they made a few in a row, we missed a few and had fouls and let them back in. That happens.

okienole3
2/22/2006, 11:38 AM
Sorry I missed the Nebraska one.

You went out of conference to find one more. Would you like me to count up the out of conference games in which we held on to a double digit lead?

No, I realize that we kept double digit leads against Binghampton and the like. Playing games like that also goes a long ways to getting you to 20 wins.

okienole3
2/22/2006, 11:39 AM
And the team that played Nebraska is nothing like this team. Why even compare early losses to this team? It's makeup and strategy has changed fairly dramatically.

New tricks, same old dog.

TopDawg
2/22/2006, 11:46 AM
No, I realize that we kept double digit leads against Binghampton and the like. Playing games like that also goes a long ways to getting you to 20 wins.

Still, if you add Nebraska to the mix, that's 4 games in which we've had a double digit lead and lost. Four out of 24. All four of them were on the road. One was against the #2 team. And in only one of them did we have a lead of more than 10.

NormanPride
2/22/2006, 11:53 AM
New tricks, same old dog.

Completely missed the point. We didn't have Neal in that game. Think that mattered much?

okienole3
2/22/2006, 11:53 AM
Still, if you add Nebraska to the mix, that's 4 games in which we've had a double digit lead and lost. Four out of 24. All four of them were on the road. One was against the #2 team. And in only one of them did we have a lead of more than 10.

Yes, but it is how those games are lost, going into a shell offensively. I will say this, a lot of the struggle this season has to do with the fact that two of our best players are also two of our dumbest.

okienole3
2/22/2006, 11:54 AM
Completely missed the point. We didn't have Neal in that game. Think that mattered much?

No, I got that. Now Neal is in the game and the same thing is happening. So, in those games, subtract points from Taj and give them to Neal. We have yet to put it all together.

TopDawg
2/22/2006, 12:31 PM
Yes, but it is how those games are lost, going into a shell offensively. I will say this, a lot of the struggle this season has to do with the fact that two of our best players are also two of our dumbest.

Yes, but we go into a shell offensively after a big offensive spurt. Would you be happier if we never went into an offensive drought but also didn't have the offensive spurts? We wouldn't be blowing big leads because we wouldn't be getting them.

I think the main difference between this year's teams and previous teams is that, in the past, we weren't necessarily better at stopping our offensive droughts, but we were better at stopping the other team from making those runs.

MojoRisen
2/22/2006, 12:39 PM
We have one Quality Win- we have a cupcake schedule, the big 12 is down.

Nova, West Virginia, Kansas, Colorado , Texas- not counting loses to NE/Mizzou-

We are 1-4 in big games... Rack up 20 wins and call your self a National Tittle contender:

okienole3
2/22/2006, 12:44 PM
We have one Quality Win- we have a cupcake schedule, the big 12 is down.

Nova, West Virginia, Kansas, Colorado , Texas- not counting loses to NE/Mizzou-

We are 1-4 in big games... Rack up 20 wins and call your self a National Tittle contender:


I would like to compare our tourney resume to Syracuse. Why is the Cuse on the bubble, but we aren't?

MojoRisen
2/22/2006, 12:44 PM
I also think we can all agree aside from Baylor & Texas- our wins have not been all that impressive.

I will say we are under achieving this year- and can still have an opportunity to gel a bit more and be a competitive team in the tourney.

We are about a top 25 team or so-

MojoRisen
2/22/2006, 12:58 PM
I would like to compare our tourney resume to Syracuse. Why is the Cuse on the bubble, but we aren't?

We are 18-6 ? one quality win, what is Cuse Record? Didn't they just loose to Cincinatti and then beat WV at home.

All I know is the Cuse- Beat the Cream dil lay of Big 12 teams back in the Day- Kansas, OU and Texas and another that was hard to stomach.

Big East > BIG 12 especially this year...

TopDawg
2/22/2006, 01:03 PM
I would like to compare our tourney resume to Syracuse. Why is the Cuse on the bubble, but we aren't?

Through yesterday:

RPI
OU: 15
'Cuse: 28

SOS
OU: 32
'Cuse: 10

vs Top 50
OU: 2-4
'Cuse: 2-8

Last 10 games
OU: 8-2
'Cuse: 4-6

But more than anything, it probably has to do with their conference. Regardless of your resume, it's much easier to get in as the 3rd best team in your conference than as the 7th-9th best.

MojoRisen
2/22/2006, 01:10 PM
True, They have a much harder schedule in my opinion. I don't need a computer to say that. Big East has 9-10 teams that would be competitive with the Top 3 in the big 12 consistently this year.

TopDawg
2/22/2006, 01:16 PM
True, They have a much harder schedule in my opinion. I don't need a computer to say that. Big East has 9-10 teams that would be competitive with the Top 3 in the big 12 consistently this year.

They lost ground by having a weak(er) non-conference schedule. Their's rated 64, ours 31...largely because we played two of the top Big East teams.

They went 12-2 in non-conf, we went 9-2 (with both losses coming at the hands of those Big East teams).

MojoRisen
2/22/2006, 01:55 PM
If we had to play Marquette, Cincinatti, Louisville 2 wice & UCONN, NOVA, WV 2wice- Mix in ND, Cuse, Georgetown, Seaton Hall, Providence.

Leaving out St. Johns, Pittsburg, Depaul who else with out looking it up..

He is my prediction on record. 7-9 based on 16 game conference schedule.

We are about as good as Cuse.

Big 12 - looks a lot better when TT, TU, OU, KU, MIZZOU, Iowa St are all in the top 25.

Rock Hard Corn Frog
2/22/2006, 02:08 PM
Maybe I'm missing the point of this thread but are we trying to make the case why OU doesn't deserve to be in the NCAA tourney? If so could we just export this thread to the OSU or Whorn board?

:confused:

We've lost some games we shouldn't sure but am I the only one that thinks that if we had Neal for the Neb and MU games that we would be 11-2 talking about winning the Big 12 and getting a 3 seed in the NCAA tourney?

colleyvillesooner
2/22/2006, 02:58 PM
Maybe I'm missing the point of this thread but are we trying to make the case why OU doesn't deserve to be in the NCAA tourney? If so could we just export this thread to the OSU or Whorn board?

:confused:

We've lost some games we shouldn't sure but am I the only one that thinks that if we had Neal for the Neb and MU games that we would be 11-2 talking about winning the Big 12 and getting a 3 seed in the NCAA tourney?

No kidding.

TopDawg
2/22/2006, 02:59 PM
If we had to play Marquette, Cincinatti, Louisville 2 wice & UCONN, NOVA, WV 2wice- Mix in ND, Cuse, Georgetown, Seaton Hall, Providence.

Leaving out St. Johns, Pittsburg, Depaul who else with out looking it up..

He is my prediction on record. 7-9 based on 16 game conference schedule.

We are about as good as Cuse.

Big 12 - looks a lot better when TT, TU, OU, KU, MIZZOU, Iowa St are all in the top 25.

Like jkm said, we've got the market cornered on playing to the level of our competition. I'm not sure we wouldn't've won a few games we "shouldn't" have with that schedule.

Syracuse's schedule strenght will climb more than ours over the remainder of the regular season as they still have Nova and Georgetown on the schedule.

ANd I'm with RHCF on the Neal deal with Neb. and Mizzou.

NormanPride
2/22/2006, 03:00 PM
Maybe I'm missing the point of this thread but are we trying to make the case why OU doesn't deserve to be in the NCAA tourney? If so could we just export this thread to the OSU or Whorn board?

:confused:

We've lost some games we shouldn't sure but am I the only one that thinks that if we had Neal for the Neb and MU games that we would be 11-2 talking about winning the Big 12 and getting a 3 seed in the NCAA tourney?

Exactly. Just because we've lost a couple recently doesn't mean we're not any better than we were when we lost to Mizzou and Nebraska. Kansas is looking better and better by the day, and we should have won that game. CU just played the best game of the season on a night where we couldn't hit at all. It happens.

TopDawg
2/22/2006, 03:59 PM
By the way, our women blew double digit leads TWICE last night.

TopDawg
2/22/2006, 04:08 PM
Exactly. Just because we've lost a couple recently doesn't mean we're not any better than we were when we lost to Mizzou and Nebraska. Kansas is looking better and better by the day, and we should have won that game. CU just played the best game of the season on a night where we couldn't hit at all. It happens.

I don't think you can dismiss the fact that we're still finding our identity. With the injuries we've had this year, I think Sampson is still feeling out which lineups he can rely on for points, which ones he can rely on for defense, and which ones are the most balanced.

I think we'll see this team turn it up a few notches as we head into a the tournament off of two rivalry games.

okienole3
2/22/2006, 04:20 PM
Maybe I'm missing the point of this thread but are we trying to make the case why OU doesn't deserve to be in the NCAA tourney? If so could we just export this thread to the OSU or Whorn board?

:confused:

We've lost some games we shouldn't sure but am I the only one that thinks that if we had Neal for the Neb and MU games that we would be 11-2 talking about winning the Big 12 and getting a 3 seed in the NCAA tourney?

We've also won some games we shouldn't have, so we are what we are. You can't have it both ways.

Rock Hard Corn Frog
2/22/2006, 04:28 PM
We've also won some games we shouldn't have, so we are what we are. You can't have it both ways.


Paris Hilton can.;)

Rock Hard Corn Frog
2/22/2006, 04:44 PM
Actually if you accept Neal as a variable you can have it both ways. It doesn't excuse all our "leads blown" and (about 50 times more relevant) losses but if we are 9-2 with a player in our line-up that is shooting over 50% from 3-point range and we are 0-2 without him I think it is a relevant stat.

In football last year I don't think the loss of AD alone justified the team struggling to beat KU but he sure made a difference when we were playing Neb.

I guess my main point is it seems like some are wasting a lot of effort knocking this team when we have plenty of Whorns and Brokebackers willing to do it instead.

colleyvillesooner
2/22/2006, 05:27 PM
By the way, our women blew double digit leads TWICE last night.

That's cause they suck. ;)

oumartin
2/22/2006, 05:46 PM
People would get off kelvins back if he could win a NC. Calhoun has won two and has proven he can coach. UConn was nothing till he got there and made them a power in that little ole' state.
All you Kelvin lovers want us off his back. 12 years he has had his chance to build his teams and win something big and its yet to happen. When or if he does you will see people shut up. Until then everyone has their opinions and their right to those opinions.

NormanPride
2/22/2006, 05:51 PM
Oh, all he has to do to be a good coach is win an NC? Well thank goodness Williams won one last year with an NBA team, because Lord knows he stank to high heaven before that. :rolleyes:

Face it. Billy couldn't win one either. Now you're holding Sampson to a higher standard because he doesn't run up and down the court and score 100 every night. At the beginning of the season, it was "we don't have any offense". Now it's "we blow leads too much". It's called basketball.

oumartin
2/22/2006, 05:53 PM
if wanting a NC at OU in basketball is too much to ask I guess I'll find another team to root for.

It obviously is for most

TopDawg
2/22/2006, 05:54 PM
People would get off kelvins back if he could win a NC. Calhoun has won two and has proven he can coach. UConn was nothing till he got there and made them a power in that little ole' state.
All you Kelvin lovers want us off his back. 12 years he has had his chance to build his teams and win something big and its yet to happen. When or if he does you will see people shut up. Until then everyone has their opinions and their right to those opinions.

Just for the record, Calhoun won his first NC in his 13th year.

oumartin
2/22/2006, 05:56 PM
well then theres still a chance see.

NormanPride
2/22/2006, 06:04 PM
if wanting a NC at OU in basketball is too much to ask I guess I'll find another team to root for.

It obviously is for most

It's not at all! But you're acting like it's black/white no-NC-suck/win-NC-good and that's ridiculous.

Kelvin is a great coach, but a lot of things have to line up for you to make a championship run. Look at the Final 4 year. We were on a ROLL, had the NC in our hands, and slipped. It happens.

birddog
2/22/2006, 08:04 PM
It may seem that way, but it's not the case. The games in bold are the ones that fit your first statement (blown a double digit lead) and the games in italics fit your second statement (put those teams away) since conference play began:

Nebraska: Fell apart in the final few minutes and blew a (as best I can tell) 6 point lead to lose by 1.
Missouri: Had a 7 point lead early in the 2nd half and lost by 2.
Texas A&M: Hung around in an ugly game to get a 1 point win.
Texas Tech: Won by 12.
Baylor: Won by 30.
Texas: Won by 10.
Texas A&M: Had a 14 point lead, it was cut to 3, won by 8.
Kansas: Fell apart toward the end of the game and lost a 16 point lead.
OSU: Had an 18 point lead cut to 6, won by 8.
Baylor: Won by 28.
Colorado: Lead by 5 at half, couldn't hit shots in 2nd half, lost by 9.
Iowa State: Lead by 4 early in 2nd, trailed by 6 with 53 seconds left, won by 1.
Texas Tech: Lead by 10 with 7 minutes left, trailed by 2 with 1 minute left, won by 1.

By my count we've blown 2 double digit leads. Both times on the road. And we've "put them away" 6 times. Even if you don't want to count the OSU and A&M games, since they cut our lead down to 6 and 3, respectively, fine. That makes it 2 blown, 4 put away. And if you don't want to count Baylor for obvious reasons, then it's still 2 games to 2.

You can criticize OU by saying that some teams haven't blown a 7-point lead in all of their losses, but it seems kinda counter-productive. The reason other teams haven't blown 7-point leads in their losses is because they haven't had 7-point leads in their losses. Sure, it's a frustrating way to lose...but, to me anyway, it's more encouraging than getting run out of the gym, trailing from start to finish.
Yeah, it SEEMS, Thanks for the stats.

stoopified
2/23/2006, 03:40 AM
We had a 10 point lead against Nova and lost by 11.

Led by 10 early in the second half against Nebraska and lost by 1.

The same ole' crap that I refer to is the 5, 6, 7, or 8 minute scoring droughts and early round tourney exits.I share your frustration but basketball is a game of runs,ebb and flow.That is true for all teams,the more teams you watch the more you know this is true.As for early tourney exits,after an 0-4 start we are 11-6 in our lasst 6 trips and that includes a Sweet 16,Elite Eight and Final Four.

If we were a basketball first or only school such as Duke ,UNC,KU,UK.etc.,I could understand this being underachieving by those standards.We however are a FOOTBALL GIANT that casts shadows over little brotherB-Ball.We do not get the Sheldon Williams,J.J. Reddicks of the basketball world even when they come from OK like Williams ,Kalena Azubuke is because they want to go to BASKETBALL GIANTS.IF Kelvin ever lands a Top 5 national recruit like Sherri did then things will change.

Instead of thinking about what Kelvin has NOT done,look at what he has done.With only one player in 11 plus years making it to the NBA Sampson has beaten teams like UT,KU,UConn,OSU,Maryland,Arkansas who have all put multiple players in the NBA.For the most part Kelvin does not get so much out-coached as out-talented.But if Kelvin is not doing the job well enough for you,who do you suggest we hire to replace him?

Btw recall that the most bally-hooed player to sign with KS,Ryan Humphrey transferred.He wanted to hone his game for the NBA and now plays for....uh nobody.Kelvin gets good players, not great ones but manages to beat teams with NBA talent.Hmm could have something to do with his coaching ability.

BarryBnds
2/23/2006, 03:53 PM
A question for all the Kelvin pumpers. In all seriousness there are more people that think something has to change than not. Yes there are always idiots that think Bob should be fired after this year but they are the minority. But when more and more voices are saying the same thing why can't you understand that there is a problem? Should Kelvin be fired? I don't know. Should he consider changing his coaching style? I think so. I think everyone on here loves the university and wants nothing but the best and after all these years it just seems like the same sh*t different day. Why do we have to be haters if we want our team to be the best?

Yes Kelvin can average 26 wins a year but when this many people are starting to get up in arms about his performance doesn't that make you want to look at that stat a little more closely? I guess I'm saying that you seem to always want to paint us into the corner of "Kelvin haters" when I don't think it's necessarily that black and white. I don't have positive or negative feelings about Kelvin as a person. I just want OU to win it all. Or at least play like the top 5 team they supposedly were at the beginning of the year. No matter how you spin it, this is a terrible year for the Big XII and we continue to play down to the level of our talent. Just once I'd love to see us rip through the conference like Tubbs used to.

colleyvillesooner
2/23/2006, 04:11 PM
A question for all the Kelvin pumpers. In all seriousness there are more people that think something has to change than not. Yes there are always idiots that think Bob should be fired after this year but they are the minority. But when more and more voices are saying the same thing why can't you understand that there is a problem? Should Kelvin be fired? I don't know. Should he consider changing his coaching style? I think so. I think everyone on here loves the university and wants nothing but the best and after all these years it just seems like the same sh*t different day. Why do we have to be haters if we want our team to be the best?

Yes Kelvin can average 26 wins a year but when this many people are starting to get up in arms about his performance doesn't that make you want to look at that stat a little more closely? I guess I'm saying that you seem to always want to paint us into the corner of "Kelvin haters" when I don't think it's necessarily that black and white. I don't have positive or negative feelings about Kelvin as a person. I just want OU to win it all. Or at least play like the top 5 team they supposedly were at the beginning of the year. No matter how you spin it, this is a terrible year for the Big XII and we continue to play down to the level of our talent. Just once I'd love to see us rip through the conference like Tubbs used to.

Almost made it without mentioning Tubbs.

Like someone else mentioned, I bet the fans at UCONN are glad that Calhoun didn't change his coaching style. He never even made it to the Final Four before he won it all in 1999. Took him 13 years.

All us "Kelvin Pumpers" are saying is that there is a strong contigent of "fans" here that can't wait to log on after we lose to rip the team/Kelvin a new one.

And god help us if we win, it's the same one's complaing about how we won.

BarryBnds
2/23/2006, 04:16 PM
Almost made it without mentioning Tubbs.

Puhlease!!!!!! This whole thread is littered with "not even Tubbs did this...blah blah". Every Kelvin **** post starts with mentioning Tubbs' last year when he lost most of the team due to academic or off the field improprieties. I'd respect you more if you'd just answer the question. Why do the voices grow louder and louder year after year of the same type of performances? How long will you settle for mediocrity? I'd much rather do what Michigan State did and have a few years of winning it all or competing for it all and then rebuilding than staying in the middle and beating the Coppin State's of the world to a 20 win season.

Jay C. Upchurch
2/23/2006, 04:20 PM
In all seriousness there are more people that think something has to change than not.

Barry,

Exactly what are you basing your information on? Did you do some kind of survey among OU basketball fans?

In reality, I believe you are among the vast minority. Most OU fans appreciate what Kelvin Sampson has done for the Sooner basketball program.

NormanPride
2/23/2006, 04:22 PM
I completely understand the feeling of frustration with this team. I feel it all the time when they make stupid plays, blow leads, and lose games they shouldn't. However, I've come to understand, after watching a LOT more bball this year, that most of the teams out there are like this. It just looks like that's the way college basketball is. Heck, even His Holiness J.J. Redick makes a few boneheaded plays a game, though they don't show up as much because Duke is so ridiculously talented.

And that's my other point. We aren't as talented as other teams, no matter how you look at it. Our most talented players would be benched at a lot of the elite schools because they can't play consistently. Neal, who has been as hot as anyone, would not play some places because other areas of his game are lacking. We have great players, yes, but they're also ALL role players. Book is the trash bucket/rebounding machine. Taj is the post player (though he's been off lately). Neal is the 3 specialist. Everett is the slasher. And our PG is a freshman who has been injured. For a team without a real PG, I think we've done pretty dang well.

BarryBnds
2/23/2006, 04:26 PM
Barry,

Exactly what are you basing your information on? Did you do some kind of survey among OU basketball fans?

In reality, I believe you are among the vast minority. Most OU fans appreciate what Kelvin Sampson has done for the Sooner basketball program.

I don't have to do a scientific survey to read the posts on this site. Everytime Kelvin beats a team of inferior talent there are about 4 people on this site that seem to think that gives Kelvin validity to being a "great" coach. And after every disappointing boring performance there are alot more people on here frustrated with the team and coach. You can't have it both ways. If you are going to give him all the credit in the wins he should get all the blame in the losses.

Like I said I don't have a problem with him as a person but I'm just frustrated with year after year of the same crap.

SoonerBBall
2/23/2006, 04:28 PM
I don't have to do a scientific survey to read the posts on this site. Everytime Kelvin beats a team of inferior talent there are about 4 people on this site that seem to think that gives Kelvin validity to being a "great" coach. And after every disappointing boring performance there are alot more people on here frustrated with the team and coach. You can't have it both ways. If you are going to give him all the credit in the wins he should get all the blame in the losses.

Like I said I don't have a problem with him as a person but I'm just frustrated with year after year of the same crap.

I R RIGHT CAUSE I SAY I R!!1!

Jay C. Upchurch
2/23/2006, 04:36 PM
I don't have to do a scientific survey to read the posts on this site. Everytime Kelvin beats a team of inferior talent there are about 4 people on this site that seem to think that gives Kelvin validity to being a "great" coach. And after every disappointing boring performance there are alot more people on here frustrated with the team and coach. You can't have it both ways. If you are going to give him all the credit in the wins he should get all the blame in the losses.

That's pretty much what I thought.

BarryBnds
2/23/2006, 04:38 PM
That's pretty much what I thought.

I see you STILL can't answer a direct question.

TopDawg
2/23/2006, 04:40 PM
If you add up all the fans of Baylor, Colorado, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska, Oklahoma State, Texas, Texas A&M and Texas Tech, then I bet people who want Kelvin gone from OU actually are the majority.

I guess the fact that OU hasn't won a conference championship in men's basketball since LAST YEAR really ****es a lot of OU fans off.

BarryBnds
2/23/2006, 04:41 PM
If you add up all the fans of Baylor, Colorado, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska, Oklahoma State, Texas, Texas A&M and Texas Tech, then I bet people who want Kelvin gone from OU actually are the majority.

I guess the fact that OU hasn't won a conference championship in men's basketball since LAST YEAR really ****es a lot of OU fans off.

The conference championship doesn't do a whole helluva lot against Utah or Manhattan or Indiana State.

TopDawg
2/23/2006, 04:42 PM
So you're only happy if we win it all? Conference championships, conference tournament championships...that stuff doesn't mean squat unless we win it all?

NormanPride
2/23/2006, 04:44 PM
I don't have to do a scientific survey to read the posts on this site. Everytime Kelvin beats a team of inferior talent there are about 4 people on this site that seem to think that gives Kelvin validity to being a "great" coach. And after every disappointing boring performance there are alot more people on here frustrated with the team and coach. You can't have it both ways. If you are going to give him all the credit in the wins he should get all the blame in the losses.

Like I said I don't have a problem with him as a person but I'm just frustrated with year after year of the same crap.

I don't recall saying "Sampson is such a great coach for winning the Coppin St game" but whatever...

People on this site need to face it. We're not an elite team right now. We probably would be if we had a true point guard, but that's out of our control, really. We got so much damn hype before the season by the media that some of our more idiotic fans bought into it, DESPITE the fact that almost 2/3 of our team left.

The media bases expectations off of "Taj can make plays!" or "Everett is amazing!" not realizing that you can't be a one-man team in college BBall. Taj has been disappointing this year, and Everett hasn't cut down on the mistakes as much as we thought he would. None of those things are Sampson's fault, just like Neal catching fire, AJ being a great defender and Griffin being a diamond in the rough aren't really to his credit. It's just the team he's been given.

NormanPride
2/23/2006, 04:45 PM
So you're only happy if we win it all? Conference championships, conference tournament championships...that stuff doesn't mean squat unless we win it all?

Of course! Didn't you know that Kelvin isn't going to be a great coach until he wins us a NC? That final four was crap.

Also, did you know that Roy Williams completely sucked *** until last year? WHO KNEW?! ;)

Rock Hard Corn Frog
2/23/2006, 04:51 PM
The conference championship doesn't do a whole helluva lot against Utah or Manhattan or Indiana State.


How about we have a poll of Sooner fans about whether you are a troll?

Choices should be:

A. Troll
B. Flaxseed intoxicated Troll
c. Orge, (closely related to the Troll)

colleyvillesooner
2/23/2006, 04:52 PM
How long will you settle for mediocrity? I'd much rather do what Michigan State did and have a few years of winning it all or competing for it all and then rebuilding than staying in the middle and beating the Coppin State's of the world to a 20 win season.

Michigan State won it in 2000. Once. Not exactly a few years of "winning it all"

And a Final Four appearance in 2002, an Elite Eight appearance in 2003, a Big 12 championship LAST YEAR and appearing in 5 of the past 8 Big 12 Tournament Championship games is not mediocre.

Rock Hard Corn Frog
2/23/2006, 05:05 PM
By the way I want to point out that Barry Bonds sucks because no matter how many home runs he has hit in the regular season he has a terrible career postseason average and has NEVER, I repeat NEVER won a world series. Plus sometimes he goes 0-3 against the Cubs.....

colleyvillesooner
2/23/2006, 05:10 PM
By the way I want to point out that Barry Bonds sucks because no matter how many home runs he has hit in the regular season he has a terrible career postseason average and has NEVER, I repeat NEVER won a world series. Plus sometimes he goes 0-3 against the Cubs.....

heh

TopDawg
2/23/2006, 05:25 PM
Just once I'd love to see us rip through the conference like Tubbs used to.

Tubbs' best years in conference, he went 13-1 (1984 and 1985). Sampson went 13-3 in 2002 and has gone 12-4 four other times. I'm not certain, but I think the Big 8 during Tubbs' best years was an easier conference than the Big XII during Sampson's best years.

In Sampson's 12 years of conference play at OU, he's 126-59 (68.1%). In Tubbs' BEST 12 years (out of 14) of conference play at OU, he was 117-51 (69.6%).

1.5% points difference. And that's not counting Tubbs' 1991 (5-9) or 1981 (4-10) records.

Sooner04
2/23/2006, 05:27 PM
Tubbs' I'm not certain, but I think the Big 8 during Tubbs' best years was an easier conference than the Big XII during Sampson's best years.
The Big 8 had three teams in the Elite 8 in '88.

Rock Hard Corn Frog
2/23/2006, 05:28 PM
Tubbs' best years in conference, he went 13-1 (1984 and 1985). Sampson went 13-3 in 2002 and has gone 12-4 four other times. I'm not certain, but I think the Big 8 during Tubbs' best years was an easier conference than the Big XII during Sampson's best years.

In Sampson's 12 years of conference play at OU, he's 126-59 (68.1%). In Tubbs' BEST 12 years (out of 14) of conference play at OU, he was 117-51 (69.6%).

1.5% points difference. And that's not counting Tubbs' 1991 (5-9) or 1981 (4-10) records.


Point will be lost on Dr Flaxseed. He is back getting another dose so he can build on his impressive .245 postseason average.

Sooner04 is right though in that 87-88 was our best team ever by any standard, Big 8, 12 whatever. For must of Tubbs tenure either KU or MU or sometimes both were pretty tough. There were several years though where Colo, Neb and ISU made this years Baylor team look pretty good.

I don't want to knock Tubbs though any more than I think SOME of the criticism of Sampson is rational.

NormanPride
2/23/2006, 05:34 PM
The Big 8 had three teams in the Elite 8 in '88.

So did the Big 12 in '02 and '03.

Sooner04
2/23/2006, 05:36 PM
Very true. I think the conferences are/were pretty equal.

BUT:

3/8 = 37.5%

3/12 = 25%

;)

NormanPride
2/23/2006, 05:39 PM
Still the same percentage of final teams. ;)

TopDawg
2/23/2006, 05:40 PM
BUT,

it's easier to go 14-0 than 16-0.

Sooner04
2/23/2006, 05:41 PM
13-1 > 13-3

TopDawg
2/23/2006, 05:42 PM
1985, 3 Big 8 teams made the tourney. Iowa State and Kansas both lost on the first weekend.

Sooner04
2/23/2006, 05:44 PM
1985, 3 Big 8 teams made the tourney. Iowa State and Kansas both lost on the first weekend.
So?

1998 - Four Big 12 teams make the Tournament. None make it to the second weekend.

TopDawg
2/23/2006, 05:46 PM
4 Big 8 teams made it in 1989. KSU and ISU lost in the 1st round, OU and Missouri in the Sweet 16.

Looks like 1988 was an anomaly.

Sooner04
2/23/2006, 05:47 PM
Looks like 1988 was an anomaly.
Like '02?

TopDawg
2/23/2006, 05:49 PM
Well, we had 3 teams in the Elite 8 and 2 teams in the Final Four in '03.

colleyvillesooner
2/23/2006, 05:50 PM
My head hurts.

NormanPride
2/23/2006, 05:52 PM
My head hurts.

I don't know the pairings on SF.com like I should, but doesn't that mean you should tell 1TC to stop?

Sooner04
2/23/2006, 05:52 PM
Well, we had 3 teams in the Elite 8 and 2 teams in the Final Four in '03.
True, but I have a real hard time counting our Elite 8 appearance in '03. Only Kansas has had an easier route to the National Quarterfinals than we did that year.

Rock Hard Corn Frog
2/23/2006, 05:54 PM
BUT,

it's easier to go 14-0 than 16-0.


It is. We had a couple more non-conf games as a result and there were 1-2 more games played as well in the regular season for some time (Like when we were 20-15 in 90-91. So we played a couple more games that were the equivalent of Binghamton or Florida A&M. Overall the non-conf schedule was softer.

BUT, We also played UNLV when they were an elite team and beat them, we played Arizona,Virigina,LSU, Illinois. Not a bunch of of top teams each year but 1-2 top 10 top teams (UNLV was #1)and we won the majority of them and KU and MU were both top 10 caliber teams.

In 87-88 for example our non-conf included: Tex A&M, Penn St, Loyola-Chi, Sam Houston St, Centenary, Florida St, Georgia St, Dayton, Oral Roberts, Illinois St, Austin Pea 11 pretty easy wins

Virginia, Georgia, Pittsburgh, LSU All pretty good non-conf tests. lost to LSU

So overall I'd say we had more real easy games but more top 5 match-up games.

TopDawg
2/23/2006, 05:55 PM
True, but I have a real hard time counting our Elite 8 appearance in '03. Only Kansas has had an easier route to the National Quarterfinals than we did that year.

True. But easy road often means high seed which often means quality team.

Plus, I don't mind if I just have to settle for two teams in the Final Four that year.

Sooner04
2/23/2006, 05:56 PM
True. But easy road often means high seed which often means quality team.
But we weren't a quality team that year. Our '02 team deserved a 1-seed and got a 2. The '03 team deserved a 3-seed (at best) and got a 1.

Saying we're not quality might be harsh, but we were probably the worst #1 seed of at least the last 15 years.

colleyvillesooner
2/23/2006, 05:56 PM
I don't know the pairings on SF.com like I should, but doesn't that mean you should tell 1TC to stop?

Uh, gross. :D

Rock Hard Corn Frog
2/23/2006, 05:58 PM
True, but I have a real hard time counting our Elite 8 appearance in '03. Only Kansas has had an easier route to the National Quarterfinals than we did that year.

In 84-85 our trip to the Elite 8 involved beating: North Carolina A&T, Illinois St and La Tech before losing to Memphis. So it is relative. There are NO bad Elite 8 runs.

Sooner04
2/23/2006, 06:01 PM
In 84-85 our trip to the Elite 8 involved beating: North Carolina A&T, Illinois St and La Tech before losing to Memphis. So it is relative. There are NO bad Elite 8 runs.
That La Tech team had Karl Friggin' Malone on it!

And there is such a thing as a bad Elite 8 run. Look at the one Kansas took in '04.

TopDawg
2/23/2006, 06:01 PM
But we weren't a quality team that year. Our '02 team deserved a 1-seed and got a 2. The '03 team deserved a 3-seed (at best) and got a 1.

Saying we're not quality might be harsh, but we were probably the worst #1 seed of at least the last 15 years.

3-seed is pushing it. We were ranked #3 entering the tournament coming off a Big XII tourney championship (granted, fairly easy road) and a regular season where we went 21-6, with five of those losses coming at the hands of ranked teams (2 away, 2 neutral).

Sooner04
2/23/2006, 06:03 PM
The '03 team had three of the most pitiful losses ever produced by a Kelvin Sampson team: Alabama, Mississippi State and Missouri. HORRIBLE!

I've never seen such offensive ineptitude on basketball court this side of a '80s Big East game involving Villanova or Georgetown.

Oh, and it's been fun debating you two fellas, but the work bell has rung and I'm heading home.

TopDawg
2/23/2006, 06:07 PM
I knew bringing up the old Big 8 would bring you out. Have a good evening.

colleyvillesooner
2/23/2006, 06:31 PM
and 100.

TopDawg
2/23/2006, 06:45 PM
We could probably continue to go around and around for hours on this issue, but I think you're probably right, 04, that the frequency of elite Big 8 teams in the mid-to-late 80's is comparable to the frequency of elite Big XII teams since 2000.

But my statement was aimed more at those middle teams. It seems like there was a bigger gap between the #3 and #7 teams back in the Big 8 days than the Big XII days.

birddog
2/23/2006, 07:45 PM
please don't go around and around. i'm with colleyville. I can't retain that much.

MojoRisen
2/23/2006, 09:21 PM
BOOMER SOONER -

Kelvin is fine- All he has to do is retain a ****ing point gaurd run a little bit more and work on his offensive passing etc etc.

When we are contenders we play with a lot of desire- Kelvin needs to improve on offense- Period and I hope he does- because I like him- but some of these games were absolutely pitiful- and we have not played a tough schedule at all- Texas being our Quality win- the rest are avg teams at best..

Sooner04
2/24/2006, 11:51 AM
But my statement was aimed more at those middle teams. It seems like there was a bigger gap between the #3 and #7 teams back in the Big 8 days than the Big XII days.
I don't know. It seemed like the coaching pool was a little bit stronger in the old Big 8. Every road game was a pothole waiting to swallow you up.

You had Johnny Orr at Iowa State.
Lon Kruger and Dana Altman at K-State
Larry Brown and Roy Williams at KU
Moe Iba and Danny Nee at Nebraska (say what you want, but Nee had some good teams.)
Stormin' Norman at Mizzou

When six or seven of the eight conference teams are really competitive EVERY year that made for a rough trip through the league. For the most part, Colorado and OSU sucked during the 80s, except for that stout '83 OSU team with Matt Clark. That leaves six out of the eight beating up on each other every night.

Whereas, for the majority of Big 12 history, Baylor, A&M, K-State and to a lesser extent Colorado have all ranged from mediocre to sucking loads.

King Crimson
2/24/2006, 12:24 PM
Matt Clark and Leroy Combs.

COaching pool was stronger than Big XII? with Knight, Sutton, Barnes, Sampson, Self/Williams....though you do leave out Jack Hartman.

Sooner04
2/24/2006, 12:26 PM
Hartman! God, I could not remember that guy's name.

Of course the Top 6 of the Big 12 is stronger, but it becomes diluted at the bottom. In the Big 8, you were facing good teams and good coaches just about every night.

King Crimson
2/24/2006, 12:32 PM
you mean like Tom Miller? i'm just giving you a hard time--people forget how hard it was to win on the road in the Big 8. people say the NU game in football is the biggest casualty of the Big XII.....but to me, it's always been the trad. home-home's in hoops. it's like this year, we go up to Lawrence and lose....but inna day you knew they had to come back to your place.

outside of needing the W's, going to Baylor or ATM doesn't really do a lot for me.

JMO.

Sooner04
2/24/2006, 12:35 PM
Couldn't agree more, KC. Look at some of the venues in the Big 8 and tell me if there was an easy win in the lot, other than in Boulder.

Ahearn Fieldhouse: students actually on the hardwood.
Allen Fieldhouse: shudder
Gallagher-Iba: We were #1 when they beat us there in '89.
Hearnes: Always trouble
Hilton: Underrated, always tough.

Those were TOUGH places to get a win. That's why 8-6 was almost always enough for 3rd in the Big 8 and 3rd place, once they went to 64 for the Dance, ALWAYS got into the Tournament.

Rock Hard Corn Frog
2/24/2006, 12:42 PM
Matt Clark and Leroy Combs.

Coaching pool was stronger than Big XII? with Knight, Sutton, Barnes, Sampson, Self/Williams....though you do leave out Jack Hartman.

I have to go with Crimson here.

Roy Williams = Roy Williams (unless it is TRRW)
Knight > Larry Brown at least at the college level, 5-titles no NCAA probation
Sutton > Norm at least slightly because of NCAA tourney, although Sutton had more NCAA probation problems than Norm
Bill Self > Dana Altman
Rick Barnes > Johnny Orr

Danny Nee had some decent Neb teams that at least made it to the tourney but never won a single tourney game. That pretty much makes him = or worse than Quin Snyder. Although Nee could have never made the tourney and been more popular.

I think the new arenas that some teams play in take away some home court advantage but it is still tough to win a road game in the Big 12.

PS: Not touching the Sampson vs Tubbs argument...at least not at this point, which of course is largely the basis for a lot of these debates.

King Crimson
2/24/2006, 12:50 PM
Boulder was no easy out for us....after Billy flipped off the crowd. they showed up to see us and get on Billy. i go to a couple CU game a year and Events Center can get pretty loud....but, by the same token i've been to games when you can somebody's crying baby on the other side of the gym while the game is going on.

Nebraska beat Marquette at the Devaney Center, this year.

Sooner24
2/24/2006, 01:33 PM
you mean like Tom Miller? i'm just giving you a hard time--people forget how hard it was to win on the road in the Big 8. people say the NU game in football is the biggest casualty of the Big XII.....but to me, it's always been the trad. home-home's in hoops. it's like this year, we go up to Lawrence and lose....but inna day you knew they had to come back to your place.

outside of needing the W's, going to Baylor or ATM doesn't really do a lot for me.

JMO.

And the people said.......AMEN!!!

Stoop Dawg
2/24/2006, 01:50 PM
1. The fact that the people who cry about Kelvin are LOUDER doesn't mean there are more of them.

2. If Billy Tubbs is such a great coach, what's he doing at TCU?

Salt City Sooner
2/24/2006, 02:03 PM
Tubbs is at Lamar.

Stoop Dawg
2/24/2006, 02:19 PM
Oh, my bad.

Where is Lamar?

Salt City Sooner
2/24/2006, 02:26 PM
Lamar is in Beaumont, Texas. This is his 2nd stint there as this is also where he left to come to OU in the first place. He's the AD, as well as head basketball coach. Also on his staff is former Sooner player Kermit Holmes.

Bourbon St Sooner
2/24/2006, 02:30 PM
Kelvin pumpers.

I guess I'm saying that you seem to always want to paint us into the corner of "Kelvin haters"

Whose painting whom?

Perhaps one day you'll get your wish and we'll get to see what true mediocrity is like. Maybe next time we'll go out and get a young, energetic guy like Quinn Snyder.

btw, why do you post under a troll handle? Are you just worried about getting negged on your regular handle? It's the internet, for crying out loud. It's anonymous. It's not like people are going to egg your car or something.

TopDawg
2/24/2006, 02:30 PM
I don't know. It seemed like the coaching pool was a little bit stronger in the old Big 8. Every road game was a pothole waiting to swallow you up.

You had Johnny Orr at Iowa State.
Lon Kruger and Dana Altman at K-State
Larry Brown and Roy Williams at KU
Moe Iba and Danny Nee at Nebraska (say what you want, but Nee had some good teams.)
Stormin' Norman at Mizzou

When six or seven of the eight conference teams are really competitive EVERY year that made for a rough trip through the league. For the most part, Colorado and OSU sucked during the 80s, except for that stout '83 OSU team with Matt Clark. That leaves six out of the eight beating up on each other every night.

Whereas, for the majority of Big 12 history, Baylor, A&M, K-State and to a lesser extent Colorado have all ranged from mediocre to sucking loads.

Good points. The Big XII has more solid middle teams, but also more easy wins. I guess that's just part of being a bigger conference.

But I disagree that the Big XII had six or seven teams that were "really competitive EVERY year." It had six or seven teams that were really competitive MOST years, but most of those teams had their down years mixed in there as well.

I think the Big XII pre-2000 doesn't hold a candle to the Big 8 during it's prime. But I think the Big XII post-2000 probably has a leg up. I guess when you combine the two, it's probably a wash.

At any rate, when comparing Tubbs and Sampson's conf. marks, I'll gladly step off of my "Sampson has done just as well in a tougher conference" statement to take a "Sampson has done just as well in a equally tough conference" stance.

Sooner04
2/24/2006, 02:54 PM
It doesn't really have anything to do with Billy or Kelvin. For me, all I'm trying to say is that the Big 8 was a better basketball conference than the Big 12. I think the matchups, atmosphere, schedules, conference tournament and coaches made it a little bit better show than the Big 12.

Rock Hard Corn Frog
2/24/2006, 03:04 PM
It doesn't really have anything to do with Billy or Kelvin. For me, all I'm trying to say is that the Big 8 was a better basketball conference than the Big 12. I think the matchups, atmosphere, schedules, conference tournament and coaches made it a little bit better show than the Big 12.


I would tend to agree that the atmosphere and the home and home schedules were better then than now, especially given the demise of MU and KSU. Ron Frankin comments aside, a decade into Big 12 play I'm just starting to think of Texas Tech as a conference rival. I think overall in other sports, especially football and baseball that the Big 12 is better than the old Big 8.

TopDawg
2/24/2006, 05:33 PM
It doesn't really have anything to do with Billy or Kelvin. For me, all I'm trying to say is that the Big 8 was a better basketball conference than the Big 12. I think the matchups, atmosphere, schedules, conference tournament and coaches made it a little bit better show than the Big 12.

I think a lot of that may've had to do with the style of Big 8 play and, like you pointed out, the types of coaches. It was certainly a better show, but I don't think that necessarily made it a tougher conference.

John Kochtoston
2/24/2006, 07:03 PM
By the way I want to point out that Barry Bonds sucks because no matter how many home runs he has hit in the regular season he has a terrible career postseason average and has NEVER, I repeat NEVER won a world series. Plus sometimes he goes 0-3 against the Cubs.....

It is pretty funny that someone whose handle is BarryBnds is ripping someone else for their post season performance.

BarryBnds
2/26/2006, 09:45 PM
It is pretty funny that someone whose handle is BarryBnds is ripping someone else for their post season performance.

Ask the Angels how he performs in the postseason. Thankfully Barry owns more than one shirt.

Rock Hard Corn Frog
2/27/2006, 09:51 AM
Ask Heath Ledger how he performs. Thankfully Barry owns more than one shirt.

Fixed