High Blood Pressure/Job Stress

[Frozen Sooner]

I'm just throwing some advice out there for the other age 30+ men of the South Oval, and take this with the caveat that I'm a disgusting tub of lard:

I'm pretty good about regular physicals. I know I don't take the best care of myself, so I figure if I'm going to get something I should at least know about it quickly.

About 8 months ago, I went in for my regular physical and got some news that scared the crap out of me: my blood pressure had skyrocketed from a sorta-normal 125/80 to a doctor-frightening 175/110. I hadn't gained a lot of weight since the last physical-but I HAD taken a new job that was a lot more responsibility and stress.

Anyhow, the doctor got me on some medications right then and there and got me down to 135/90 before I left the office-you know, the zone where I'm not going to stroke out before I get down the stairs. However, the best advice he gave me was this: Alter your diet and find another job.

The diet was altered immediately-I've cut down the caffeine somewhat and almost worked sodium out of the diet (soda and chicken wings are my downfall.) However, as most of you know, I quit the high-stress job for a lower-stress job about a week ago.

Blood pressure taken 5 minutes ago: 132/75. Still not great, but that's BEFORE I take the BP medication for the day. Give me a few more months and I may be out of the woods.

Blood pressure is a leading indicator of so many health problems it's not even funny. Heart attack. Stroke. Adult-onset diabetes. GET YOURSELF CHECKED FOLKS! You can't FEEL high blood pressure. You honestly have no idea that it's happening. Get it checked and get it checked regularly.

[Newbomb Turk]

You can't FEEL high blood pressure. You honestly have no idea that it's happening.

I could - I was having headaches. Mine was somewhere around 140/90.
The doc also checked my cholesterol - which was high too. I now have both under control.

You're right though - keep your ticker in shape.

[OUthunder]

Frozen, 1st off I hope that you get better and take the BP meds religiously. Secondly, change jobs if you can, money isn't everything! I had a bunch of headaches during the holidays and my BP was around 144/88. After altering my diet, taking the meds, and trying to manage my temper/stress levels better, my BP is now at 118/74 and I haven't had ONE headache since I left the docs office two months ago. As a matter of fact, I haven't even had to open the Imitrex but I do take Celebrex as needed for muscle tension.

Best wishes and good luck with your BP and overall health.

[Frozen Sooner]

Thunder, I did change jobs. :D That's one of the reasons it's coming back under control.

I couldn't feel the higher blood pressure. No headaches. Nothing. Doctor said that was pretty common-lots of people have no idea that their blood pressure is up.

[Newbomb Turk]

Froz - you might also want to quit watching the OU basketball games. ;)

[Howzit]

I've been on bp meds for about a year. Same as Frozen, no real symptoms, it was just high. Actually, it was in the 140's/80's range, which is barely over what is considered high.

The weird thing is my resting heart rate is typically in the 50's and I am pretty fit because of all the cardio I do, my plumbing is just conducive to high bp.

I was hesitant to get on meds - just didn't like the idea. What changed my mind was when, during an eye exam, the opthamologist asked if I was on bp meds. I said no, he said you need to be. He could apparently tell by the blood vessels in my eyes that it was high. I figured it was time.

Froz, thanks again for the response on Alaska, I'll hollah before we head that way...

[Frozen Sooner]

OK, after taking the meds about ten minutes ago, I'm sitting at a very happy 121/76. Not too shabby.

[Okla-homey]

I'm just throwing some advice out there for the other age 30+ men of the South Oval, and take this with the caveat that I'm a disgusting tub of lard:

I'm pretty good about regular physicals. I know I don't take the best care of myself, so I figure if I'm going to get something I should at least know about it quickly.

About 8 months ago, I went in for my regular physical and got some news that scared the crap out of me: my blood pressure had skyrocketed from a sorta-normal 125/80 to a doctor-frightening 175/110. I hadn't gained a lot of weight since the last physical-but I HAD taken a new job that was a lot more responsibility and stress.

Anyhow, the doctor got me on some medications right then and there and got me down to 135/90 before I left the office-you know, the zone where I'm not going to stroke out before I get down the stairs. However, the best advice he gave me was this: Alter your diet and find another job.

The diet was altered immediately-I've cut down the caffeine somewhat and almost worked sodium out of the diet (soda and chicken wings are my downfall.) However, as most of you know, I quit the high-stress job for a lower-stress job about a week ago.

Blood pressure taken 5 minutes ago: 132/75. Still not great, but that's BEFORE I take the BP medication for the day. Give me a few more months and I may be out of the woods.

Blood pressure is a leading indicator of so many health problems it's not even funny. Heart attack. Stroke. Adult-onset diabetes. GET YOURSELF CHECKED FOLKS! You can't FEEL high blood pressure. You honestly have no idea that it's happening. Get it checked and get it checked regularly.

Noted, and great jorb on the dietary regime...but man oh man, you really oughtta do something to break a sweat occasionally. That, combined with meds will help you live a longer, happier and more comfortable life. Not to be all preachy or nuthin' just mentioning what I needed to say to my Sooner bruthas and sistuhs.

As an aside, one of the reasons the military uses for requiring folks to stay in some semblence of a decent physical condition, even if they never go near a battlefield, is due to the fact folks who are in reasonable shape are generally better able to deal with life or job induced stress.

[Okieflyer]

Yup, it happens when you get older.

[85Sooner]

I have been going through that literally for years. My plan is to take a leave of absense in March to get away from work and be able to restructure my life.

It is too crazy right now. Props to ya froz.

[Newbomb Turk]

Yup, it happens when you get older.

I didn't have high BP until I took the stressful job I have now. :O

[Penguin]

I need some serious lifestyle changes. Pronto.

[Okla-homey]

Some wag once said "strokes that don't kill you are nature's way of telling you to lighten-up."

[Okieflyer]

I didn't have high BP until I took the stressful job I have now. :O

Dam, good thing you not still working for your former employer. You would be dead now.:D

[Tailwind]

Good advice for the women too. Also the breaking a sweat thing.......it strengthens your heart and, even though you might have to kick yourself in the butt to get started, it feels so good when you do. February is "Heart Disease and Women Awareness Month". The disease is more prevalent in women than many would imagine.

[Mjcpr]

during an eye exam, the opthamologist asked if I was on bp meds. I said no, he said you need to be. He could apparently tell by the blood vessels in my eyes that it was high.

No, Doc......just went out with DC last night why do you ask?

[soonercody]

When I turned 30, my doctor started giving me a prostate exam. I thought that was supposed to wait until I was 50 or so. I've moved states and the new doc thinks it's mandatory too.

[Okla-homey]

When I turned 30, my doctor started giving me a prostate exam. I thought that was supposed to wait until I was 50 or so. I've moved states and the new doc thinks it's mandatory too.

Brokeback Clinic?;)

[oumartin]

I've been on BP medicine since I was 22 and I am lucky to read 130/90.
I am pretty high strung and in my twenties in great physical condition. My dr. said that some peoples just runs higher and their hearts will just give out quicker. so he put me on meds then. Anyhow. my chlorestoral and all other things are fine.
One thing about BP medicine is it can screw up your kidneys so get that blood work done yearly friends.

[opksooner]

When I turned 30, my doctor started giving me a prostate exam. I thought that was supposed to wait until I was 50 or so. I've moved states and the new doc thinks it's mandatory too.
Man, he's got a payment to make on his Lexus. Where's your empathy?

[OUinFLA]

heterosexual sex is good exercise for your heart.


:D

[Penguin]

heterosexual sex is good exercise for your heart.

Who would have thunk that 17.2 seconds of fun could be so good for you?

[OUinFLA]

Who would have thunk that 17.2 seconds of fun could be so good for you?

braggart!

[oumartin]

gosh I wish i could be done that quick. but it takes the little swimmers hours to swim that long jouney down my snake!

[Oldnslo]

When I got into law school, I deleted most of my exercise regime, and when I became an Asst. DA, I still didn't exercise. But, I did eat BBQ about 3 times a week. Drank like a fish, too. And it's fair to say that there was some stress associated with the job.

So, after a physical at the ripe age of 26, my doctor advised me that I was only a moderate risk for a heart attack. I had enough cholesterol in my blood to make candles and my BP and RHR were bad numbers. Bad. That got me back to exercise. I started meds, too...

BUT:

I've found that taking a fiber supplement not only helps with cholesterol, but also with my bp. And back to exercise, I'm 120/70 and my resting heart rate is in the 50's. I discovered the benefits of fiber with a Rexall product called bioslife2, but even with "regular" fiber supplements, it's still all good.

Plus, I can do an impersonation of the space shuttle launch twice a day.

[Sooner_Bob]

High BP kinda runs in the family . . . while not super duper Frozen Sooner high I have been known to be a little above normal.

I really need to force myself to be more active.


More power to ya Frozen . . .

[achiro]

combined with meds will help you live a longer, happier and more comfortable life.

bull****e ...with all due respect of course.

[Frozen Sooner]

bull****e ...with all due respect of course.

Yeah, you're right. You should probably just get someone to crack your back.

With all due respect.

[achiro]

Yeah, you're right. You should probably just get someone to crack your back.

With all due respect.
I know a lot of ignorant people that say things like that.

Since it wasn't the intent of my post I won't waste too much time trying to explain it to you but "cracking your back", better known as an adjustment, has shown in several studies to do "silly" things like boost your immunity and lower your BP.
So you tell me, why do YOU think that high stress increases BP, other cardiac problems, ulcers, and many many other health issues?

The intent of my post was to say that regardless what the drug companies would like you to believe, BETTER HEALTH THROUGH BETTER CHEMISTRY HAS NEVER WORKED!!!!

[Frozen Sooner]

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were the only person who was allowed to promote their opinions here.

Better health through chemistry has never worked? I'm sure that the recipients of chemotherapy who have had their cancer go into remission would disagree.

Why do I think that high stress increases your blood pressure? Probably because you're caught in a constant flight/fight reaction with no resolution at hand.

[achiro]

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were the only person who was allowed to promote their opinions here.
Not sure where this came from.


I'm sure that the recipients of chemotherapy who have had their cancer go into remission would disagree.

There is a HUGE difference between someone being healthy and someone being not sick. Drugs do not help anyone become healthy.


Why do I think that high stress increases your blood pressure? Probably because you're caught in a constant flight/fight reaction with no resolution at hand.
Thats actually pretty close.

[Frozen Sooner]

It came from you saying "Bull****e" in response to someone saying that exercise in conjunction with medicine can help you get your BP under control and you calling me ignorant when I responded to it.

I would also argue whether drugs help people become healthy. There's quite a few people who have successfully fought off infections with the help of antibiotics-unless you're distinguishing between antibiotics and "drugs."

And thanks on being "pretty close" on the reasons behind the stress/blood pressure relationship. I read a little on it when I realized I had it. Figured that it was up to me to beat it, and the only way I could beat it was if I knew what was causing it.

[OUinFLA]

you guys should try the "sex" exercise.


:)

[achiro]

It came from you saying "Bull****e" in response to someone saying that exercise in conjunction with medicine can help you get your BP under control

Again, drugs don't make you healthy


and you calling me ignorant when I responded to it.
You said something with the intent of being derogatory to what I do, and part of who I am. It was a statement that showed ignorance toward Chiropractic. As I said, people that don't understand Chiropractic(ignorant of the real facts) often say things like that.


I would also argue whether drugs help people become healthy. There's quite a few people who have successfully fought off infections with the help of antibiotics-unless you're distinguishing between antibiotics and "drugs."
Nope, no difference. I would argue that a healthy person wouldn't get the infection in the first place. The antibiotics can help your body do something that it should have been able to do on its own if it were healthy. That is to get not sick. The antibiotics do nothing to boost your immune system and in fact have shown to lower your bodies ability to fight on its own.

I'm sorry but the harsh reality is that there are no real short cuts to long term health. Many BP meds have shown a 30% increase in diabetes in those taking them, is that healthy? The meds are a good short term solution in amny cases but diet, exercise, stress reduction techniques, among other things are all very effective to lower blood pressure.

[achiro]

you guys should try the "sex" exercise.


:)
Even if it didn't work, its worth the effort.:D

[SoonerInKCMO]

I wonder if this is going to turn into another one of those "Chiropractic vs. Real Medicine" threads ... I hope so. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y52/ToddG/pray.gif

[RacerX]

I had no idea that Tom Cruise used this board.

[GottaHavePride]

Noted, and great jorb on the dietary regime...but man oh man, you really oughtta do something to break a sweat occasionally. That, combined with meds will help you live a longer, happier and more comfortable life.

And get more chicks. Because that's the real motivation, right?

[SoonerBorn68]

the best advice he gave me was this: Alter your diet and find another job.

Check, and check.

High blood pressure runs in my family & I got tagged with it. After leaving the car biz for the oil field has really cut down my stress level. In my job now, we're just along for the ride...as long as we've got all out equipment set up, we're at the mercy of the rig.

And my diet? It's vastly improved since my wife goes with me to do my shopping when I'm sent out. I've been guilted into yogurt & wheat bread. :D

[SoonerBorn68]

I was on BP medicine for a while, but it gave me some terrible mood swings. My wife said I was downright scary at times.

[OUthunder]

Drugs do help improve the quality of life. Just ask HIV, heart, and people with high BP and cholesterol problems. I'm not one for having folks pop pills all of there lives, but if it maintains health and life, it sure beats death.

[Tailwind]

Drugs do help improve the quality of life. Just ask HIV, heart, and people with high BP and cholesterol problems. I'm not one for having folks pop pills all of there lives, but if it maintains health and life,
it sure beats death.
Preach on Brotha Thundah!

[Okla-homey]

bull****e ...with all due respect of course.

Oh behave. If there was anything legit about chiro the military would have some in uniform in their hospitals and clinics. ;)

[OUinFLA]

Heh, I dont know about legit on Chiro Docs, but I know the one I use irregularly to crack my back, sure makes me feel more comfortable when I leave.
I guess it allows me to continue slouching at my computer desk.
:D

but then, I have no problems with a good prescribed drug program either. :D:D

[IB4OU2]

Drugs do help improve the quality of life. Just ask HIV, heart, and people with high BP and cholesterol problems. I'm not one for having folks pop pills all of there lives, but if it maintains health and life, it sure beats death.

Amen!

[achiro]

Drugs do help improve the quality of life. Just ask HIV, heart, and people with high BP and cholesterol problems. I'm not one for having folks pop pills all of there lives, but if it maintains health and life, it sure beats death.

From the FDA Website:
http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/drugReactions/CERTimages/img008.gif
http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/drugReactions/default.htm#ADRs:%20Prevalence%20and%20Incidence
Ask those over 100,000 people that died last year how their quality of life is now. Its funny thunder, in every one of those examples you gave, including HIV, there are better solutions than drug therapy.

Look I realize that prescription drugs have a place. What I am saying is that they do not make you healthy. They may improve quality of life in some cases but in many of those cases there are alternatives(like general lifestyle changes) that help as much or more without the side effects.

[achiro]

Oh behave. If there was anything legit about chiro the military would have some in uniform in their hospitals and clinics. ;)
Thats actually closer than you may know. Chiro is being used in several military bases around the country. Also now part of the VA system.
Just remember that historically the military medical system has had little to do with health care and a lot more to do with crisis care. Who cares about your immune system when your legs have been blown off.

[OUthunder]

Achiro, being in the pharmacy business for over 15 years I can honestly say, that if you slip the right person in the FDA enough cash, they'll do, say, or even approve almost anything. I'm sure there is some truth to what you say, but if I felt that a drug therapy wasn't helping me, I surely wouldn't fork out the cash every month to feel worse.

With that said, just because you're thin, work-out, and live a healthy life style doesn't mean that your genetic make-up is any better than a person that is over weight who sets in front of the tube. I know several health freaks that have high BP, high cholesterol, or heart related problems that are just genetic in orientation. Sometimes you have NO control over your health and drugs (for the most part) do more harm than good. I'm living proof.

[achiro]

I know several health freaks that have high BP, high cholesterol, or heart related problems that are just genetic in orientation.
Where are you getting this info and can I get a copy? The reason I ask is because based on any info I have ever read on the subject, I couldn't disagree with you more. One thing for sure, I am open minded and will change my thoughts if given good info.

[soonerbrat]

I was on BP medicine for a while, but it gave me some terrible mood swings. My wife said I was downright scary at times.



what kind of BP medication were you on?

[Mjcpr]

what kind of BP medication were you on?

Methamphetamine.

[soonerbrat]

Where are you getting this info and can I get a copy? The reason I ask is because based on any info I have ever read on the subject, I couldn't disagree with you more. One thing for sure, I am open minded and will change my thoughts if given good info.


A girl I went to college with had a cholesterol level of over 400. her dad's was over 800. It was genetic, it ran in their family. Her siblings also had abnormally high levels of cholesterol. the girl I knew tried to keep her cholesterol under control by eating right and exercising but could not get it below 400.

[soonerbrat]

Methamphetamine.



oh yeah, that will lower your blood presser :rolleyes:

[OUthunder]

Where are you getting this info and can I get a copy? The reason I ask is because based on any info I have ever read on the subject, I couldn't disagree with you more. One thing for sure, I am open minded and will change my thoughts if given good info.


Surely you jest?! I guess world class atheletes just collapse and die because of there lifestyle?

Dude, people are born with bad hearts, livers, lungs all of the time. Sometimes **** (genetics) happens. So, what your saying is that babies born with defects should have changed there lifestyles in the womb? If you had your way we wouldn't even try drug thearpy to try and make them healthier?

BTW, I used to work with a guy that worked out everyday, was a vegetarian, and still had high BP and moderately high cholesterol. Nothing he tried controlled it except for drug therapy. Having worked in a hospital for several years I could give you a 100 examples right off the top of my head. Sometimes outside factors, not related to diet and exercise cause health related issues, a.k.a. mental illness.

[achiro]

A girl I went to college with had a cholesterol level of over 400. her dad's was over 800. It was genetic, it ran in their family. Her siblings also had abnormally high levels of cholesterol. the girl I knew tried to keep her cholesterol under control by eating right and exercising but could not get it below 400.

I do believe that someone can have a genetic predisposition to certain things but I remain unconvinced from your example. First, we would have to determine what "eating right and exercising" was? How much fiber? Omega 3? I've seen way to many people's "exercise" programs to be convinced there either. Was it really genetic or was it that they were all brought up in the same household eating the same things? Then of course there is the fact that there is really no proof that high cholesterol levels really do cause heart disease.
Then we can look at the drug therapy used, most commonly the "statin" drugs. So which is worse?
Instead of me saying all this stuff, I'll just cut and paste it from Dr. Mercola:

It is important to understand that statins do effectively lower cholesterol levels. There is no argument that these drugs work but they in no way shape or form treat the cause of the problem. They are nothing more than a potentially toxic band-aid. When you chose not to address the cause of the problem, the underlying condition that is causing the risk factor (high cholesterol) will crop up and eventually cause other diseases.

So just what is the problem with statins? Well they are non-specific inhibitors of a number of very important liver enzymes. The enzyme they are used for is called HMG Coenzyme A reductase. This is the enzyme that causes your liver to make choleseterol when it is stimulated by high insulin levels.

So you can shut down the enzyme that makes cholesterol or chose to reduce your insulin levels by eliminating sugar and most grains and not cause this important enzyme to be blocked in the first place. Please understand that statins not only block HMG coenzyme A reductase but they also block Coenzyme Q 10.

CoQ10 is a vital enzyme that your body needs for energy and cardiovascular health. It is widely recommended to repair heart damage, boost the function of the heart and act as a protectant against heart attacks and valve damage. Additionally, CoQ10 has been shown to be beneficial in heart and lung cancer, as well as maintain cognitive function.

Thus, when you take statins your production of this enzyme is dramatically depleted and you do not reap the health benefits associated with it.

It is my understanding that most clinicians in Europe that prescribe statins also hand the patients a prescription for CoQ10. This will help prevent heart failure, muscle pains and the potentially fatal rhabdomyolysis. From my view it is reprehensible malpractice to prescribe statins without advising patients to take CoQ10.

[Rogue]

A bad thyroid (or hell, a bad anything) can cause some wierd problems.

Chiropractors are now in the VA system, many VA's treat active duty and TriCare folks in addition to veterans.

[1stTimeCaller]

For some reason I rarely get stressed and I work in a high stress industry. I've found that it ****es people off around me when they are stressed out and they think I should be too when I'm not.

[soonerbrat]

I do believe that someone can have a genetic predisposition to certain things but I remain unconvinced from your example. First, we would have to determine what "eating right and exercising" was? How much fiber? Omega 3? I've seen way to many people's "exercise" programs to be convinced there either. Was it really genetic or was it that they were all brought up in the same household eating the same things? Then of course there is the fact that there is really no proof that high cholesterol levels really do cause heart disease.
Then we can look at the drug therapy used, most commonly the "statin" drugs. So which is worse?
Instead of me saying all this stuff, I'll just cut and paste it from Dr. Mercola:


She was almost a vegetarian. She only ate white fish and vegetables, VERY rarely she would have a chicken breast with some rice. she ran 10 miles a week and also did weight training. she was my workout partner at the gym.

[soonerbrat]

A bad thyroid (or hell, a bad anything) can cause some wierd problems.

Chiropractors are now in the VA system, many VA's treat active duty and TriCare folks in addition to veterans.



really? my kids are on TriCare..do i have to get a referral from their PCP before I can take them to a chiropractor? My daughter LOVES to get adjustments, but there's really no medical reason for her to get them.

[1stTimeCaller]

She was almost a vegetarian. She only ate white fish and vegetables, VERY rarely she would have a chicken breast with some rice. she ran 10 miles a week and also did weight training. she was my workout partner at the gym.


of course she covered everything she ate with butter and/or ranch :D

[soonerbrat]

of course she covered everything she ate with butter and/or ranch :D


:rolleyes:

no, she didn't.

[achiro]

Surely you jest?! I guess world class atheletes just collapse and die because of there lifestyle?
Yes. Does the term stress ring a bell?


Dude, people are born with bad hearts, livers, lungs all of the time. Sometimes **** (genetics) happens. So, what your saying is that babies born with defects should have changed there lifestyles in the womb? How is a heart defect suddenly a genetic issue? You can't blame all health problems on genetics. At least not at this point with the research.


If you had your way we wouldn't even try drug thearpy to try and make them healthier?
Healthier? Or to keep them alive?



BTW, I used to work with a guy that worked out everyday, was a vegetarian, and still had high BP and moderately high cholesterol. Nothing he tried controlled it except for drug therapy.
There are still dietary changes that can be made to help. Many vegetarian diets are lacking in very important nutritional needs.





Having worked in a hospital for several years I could give you a 100 examples right off the top of my head. Sometimes outside factors, not related to diet and exercise cause health related issues, a.k.a. mental illness.
Mental illness: One study from Harvard recently showed that diet, particularly Omega fatty acids where a huge part of mental health and better in most situations than the drugs used.:eek:

Oh and I don't know that you even realize it but you totally just proved my point with: "Sometimes outside factors, not related to diet and exercise cause health related issues"
I TOTALLY agree. One great example of why Chiropractic can be an important addition to the total wellness package. (I'll take some time later to explain how this works. if anyone is really interested)

[1stTimeCaller]

:rolleyes:

no, she didn't.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
YES, she did.:eddie:

[soonerbrat]

chiropractors are quacks. they don't make the flu go away or keep you healthy, but they do make your back pop and make you feel better temporarily when you have a backache or headache

[1stTimeCaller]

OH NO YOU DI'INT!!!

[achiro]

chiropractors are quacks. they don't make the flu go away or keep you healthy, but they do make your back pop and make you feel better temporarily when you have a backache or headache
Ignorant people say things like that too.:rolleyes:

[OUthunder]

achiro, you and I just completely disagree on just about every issue.

we agree to disagree.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I wonder if this is going to turn into another one of those "Chiropractic vs. Real Medicine" threads ... I hope so. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y52/ToddG/pray.gifMy gawd, you are just a shameless agitator!:oink:

[OUthunder]

Also, it has been my experience that chiropractors are indeed quacks. Thank God that they are turned down continuously in there desire to prescribe meds!!!

[crawfish]

I cracked my back during sex once. It felt GREAT!!!

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I want Sasha Cohen to walk on my back(WITHOUT her skates)!

[soonerbrat]

Ignorant people say things like that too.:rolleyes:



I'm not ignorant, in fact I'm quite informed. I applied for and was accepted to chiropractic school (Parker, Logan & Cleveland), but after much research and reading about the subject matters and philosophy I declined to enter based on my previous medical knowledge.

I have had 2 car accidents in which I injured my back, neck and shoulder, both times initially seeking treatment from chiropractors, and both times subsequently seeking treatment from more traditional medical care providers.

After the most recent accident I had, September 16, 2005, I got a referral for a chiropractor from a friend of mine. I incurred $4500 worth of bills and no resolution. I looked at the bill which included $60 treatments of "traction" which entailed 3 minutes on a roller table, $60 treatments of "muscle stimulation" which meant the chiropractor squeezed my neck twice for about 2 seconds each time. I decided they were overcharging me and stopped treatment wherein the "doctor" submitted my records to the defendant's insurance company without my consent, and those records included a "final report" wherein he stated that after a careful exit examination, I had reached maximum medical improvement and had full range of motion in my neck and shoulder. In fact, the man never did an exit examination (even though he charged $450 for it), and i still can't turn my head past my shoulder on the left side.

The most helpful thing about those visits was that he prescribed "myofascial release" which meant I got an hour-long massage from a licensed massage therapist once a week. If you walked in off the street for a massage, they'd charge you $70. They charged me $160/visit to rack up the bills.

[colleyvillesooner]

and i still can't turn my head past my shoulder on the left side.

How far are we supposed to be able to turn it? ;)

[crawfish]

I'm not ignorant, in fact I'm quite informed. I applied for and was accepted to chiropractic school (Parker, Logan & Cleveland), but after much research and reading about the subject matters and philosophy I declined to enter based on my previous medical knowledge.


I'd still let you crack my back. :D

[Frozen Sooner]

Do you know the history of medicine? I know the history of medicine!

RAWR!!

[soonerbrat]

How far are we supposed to be able to turn it? ;)



180 degrees...shoulder to shoulder

[1stTimeCaller]

$10,000 says that Hairy doesnt know the physics behind an adjustment.

Beano can hold the money.

[1stTimeCaller]

180 degrees...shoulder to shoulder

Poltergeist style?

[Howzit]

achiro, I have always had high blood pressure. I almost couldn't get into the military when I was 18 because I had high blood pressure, and I was an All American high school swimmer. I did a half ironman triathlon last September and run about 30 miles a week and swim 2 to 3 miles a week currently. I could be a little better in my diet, but I am not horrible. In fact, aside from more beer than I should, me diet is excellent. My blood pressure is STILL high.

My doctor has told me, and I have read, that some people are just genetically prediposed to have high bloodpressure. I am not interested enough to spend time researching to try and convince you of this, I really don't care that much, but it's true.

I do find it ironic that your magic diet program involves taking supplements, or whatever, as opposed to the lifestyle changes you tout as being all that is necessary to address blood pressure.

[achiro]

I'm not ignorant, in fact I'm quite informed. I applied for and was accepted to chiropractic school (Parker, Logan & Cleveland), but after much research and reading about the subject matters and philosophy I declined to enter based on my previous medical knowledge.

I have had 2 car accidents in which I injured my back, neck and shoulder, both times initially seeking treatment from chiropractors, and both times subsequently seeking treatment from more traditional medical care providers.

After the most recent accident I had, September 16, 2005, I got a referral for a chiropractor from a friend of mine. I incurred $4500 worth of bills and no resolution. I looked at the bill which included $60 treatments of "traction" which entailed 3 minutes on a roller table, $60 treatments of "muscle stimulation" which meant the chiropractor squeezed my neck twice for about 2 seconds each time. I decided they were overcharging me and stopped treatment wherein the "doctor" submitted my records to the defendant's insurance company without my consent, and those records included a "final report" wherein he stated that after a careful exit examination, I had reached maximum medical improvement and had full range of motion in my neck and shoulder. In fact, the man never did an exit examination (even though he charged $450 for it), and i still can't turn my head past my shoulder on the left side.

The most helpful thing about those visits was that he prescribed "myofascial release" which meant I got an hour-long massage from a licensed massage therapist once a week. If you walked in off the street for a massage, they'd charge you $70. They charged me $160/visit to rack up the bills.

So based on one, IMO, unethical chiro you have determined that we are all quacks?:rolleyes:

And being accepted into Chiro college means little without the education provided from one of those institutions in the scheme of overall ignorance on the subject. I passed every math class I have ever taken(with an A), I still consider myself too ignorant on tax law to do my own taxes.

[crawfish]

achiro, I have always had high blood pressure. I almost couldn't get into the military when I was 18 because I had high blood pressure, and I was an All American high school swimmer. I did a half ironman triathlon last September and run about 30 miles a week and swim 2 to 3 miles a week currently. I could be a little better in my diet, but I am not horrible. In fact, aside from more beer than I should, me diet is excellent. My blood pressure is STILL high.

My doctor has told me, and I have read, that some people are just genetically presiposed to have high bloodpressure. I am not interested enough to spend time researching to try and convince you of this, I really don't care that much, but it's true.

I do find it ironic that your magic diet program involves taking supplements, or whatever, as opposed to the lifestyle changes you tout as being all that is necessary to address blood pressure.

I, on the other hand, eat pretty badly and have excellent blood pressure. Genetics may play a larger role than any other factor.

[OUinFLA]

For some reason I rarely get stressed and I work in a high stress industry. I've found that it ****es people off around me when they are stressed out and they think I should be too when I'm not.


Do you smoke a lot of dope?
:D

[achiro]

OK for those of you that have PM's me and actually want to know how Chiropractic helps someone to become and/or stay healthy, I will post this very abbreviated explanation:
First understand Stress(the fight/flight) issue Froz mentioned. The stress response summary is as follows:
1. Increased cortisol
2. Increased catecholamines
3. Increased heart rate
4. Increased vazocoinstriction
5. Increased blood pressure
6. Increased Blood glucose levels
7. Increased Blood lipid levels
8. Increased Blood Cholesterol levels(increased LDL:decreased HDL)
9. Increased Clotting Factors
10. Increased Protein degradation of muscle and connective tissue
11. Insulin resistance
12. Increased feelings of stress, fear, anxiety, and depression
13. Decreased short term memory, ability to concentrate, and learn new material
14. Decreased serotonin levels; increased noradrenaline levels
15. Increased Sensitivity of sensory systems including those for pain
16. Decreased cellular immunity
17. Decreased anabolic hormones like growth hormone and testosterone and luteinizing hormone, etc
18. Bone loss, muscle fiber type challenges

Now understand what a Nociceptor is. A nociceptor is basically a sensory nerve ending. Nociception is the detection of noxious stimuli(stressors) and the body responds to nociception accordingly by increasing the stress response. Understand that nociception can result in pain but that increased nociception does not necessarily mean an increase in pain. Pain is the result of nociception reaching the cortex but there can be a great deal of nociceptive input that does not reach the cortex.

Still with me?

Now understand proprioception. Proprioception basically is the nervous system telling your brain position. Decreased proprioception leads to improper homeostatic coordination of not only movement, balance, and coordination but also stress hormone levels, cognition, and learning, affect(emotion), and viscera(organs)including immune organs.
Proprioception also INHIBITS nociception.

Decreased motion in joints of the spine(or any joint for that matter) increases nociception, and decreased proprioception. A chiropractic adjustment increases motion in the joint, thus decreasing nociception and increasing proprioception.

[OUinFLA]

Do SoonerFans get a discount?

[achiro]

Also, it has been my experience that chiropractors are indeed quacks. Thank God that they are turned down continuously in there desire to prescribe meds!!!

Most Chiropractor have absolutley no interest in prescribing drugs. If you haven't gotten why that is, you haven't been paying attention.

[Frozen Sooner]

Thank you for posting the explanation, achiro. I was actually about to ask you.

[soonerbrat]

So based on one, IMO, unethical chiro you have determined that we are all quacks?:rolleyes:

And being accepted into Chiro college means little without the education provided from one of those institutions in the scheme of overall ignorance on the subject. I passed every math class I have ever taken(with an A), I still consider myself too ignorant on tax law to do my own taxes.


I read the text books..i don't agree with the overall philosophy. I've worked with a LOT of chiropractors and based on the 30 or so I know and have worked with, yes, I think they are quacks.

You are assuming you know what kind of medical training and/or education I have received and calling me ignorant about something when in fact you have no idea what my background is.

You sir, are ignorant about my background.

And when I say "ignorant" I mean "uninformed."

[Frozen Sooner]

I'm ignorant about women in general. And by ignorant I mean "A big dumbass."

[achiro]

achiro, I have always had high blood pressure. I almost couldn't get into the military when I was 18 because I had high blood pressure, and I was an All American high school swimmer. I did a half ironman triathlon last September and run about 30 miles a week and swim 2 to 3 miles a week currently. I could be a little better in my diet, but I am not horrible. In fact, aside from more beer than I should, me diet is excellent. My blood pressure is STILL high.

My doctor has told me, and I have read, that some people are just genetically prediposed to have high bloodpressure. I am not interested enough to spend time researching to try and convince you of this, I really don't care that much, but it's true.
And I don't disagree completely that genetics do play a part. I am of the opinion that "normal" for some isn't always "normal" for everyone. There are still lifestyle changes that could be tried. How often are you getting adjusted? People can make fun all they want but I know that in my office, and most other chiro offices that keep track, we see a consistant lowering of BP towards normal over time.


I do find it ironic that your magic diet program involves taking supplements, or whatever, as opposed to the lifestyle changes you tout as being all that is necessary to address blood pressure.
Actually nothing "magic" about it. The cleanse part is an important part of lifestyle improvement IMO whether its this or several other cleansing programs. Then the "diet" portion is all about lowering caloric intake while increasing nutritional intake. That is all about lifestyle changes.

[Frozen Sooner]

I don't think that anyone is in major disagreement that for the majority of cases, high blood pressure is best regulated by changes in lifestyle. Please note that my first post noted that I switched jobs and cut the sodium levels in my diet way down. The first post you made in this thread was in response to someone saying that medicine in addition to lifestyle changes help people overcome HBP.

For some people-like me!-high blood pressure was such an immediately life-threatening thing that I did not have TIME for lifestyle changes to work before I stroked out. So yeah, the medicine is what I used in conjunction with the lifestyle changes. I DO plan on getting off the medication as soon as my doctor says it's safe.

Unfortunately, many people don't understand that the lifestyle change is necessary for ANY treatment regimen no matter whether you go to a doctor or chiropracter. There is no magic bullet for good health, and I think we agree that medicines only treat symptoms, not underlying causes (at least for the most part.)

My underlying causes were being in a high-stress job and eating like a Calcutta whore in a McDonald's as well as not enough exercise. I've changed two of the three underlying causes, and I'm working on the third.

[achiro]

I think they are quacks.

With a mass statement like that, ignorant may be a huge understatement.
I do take this as a personal attack. I love what I do. chiropractic is part of who I am. I love helping people become healthier than they ever imagined. I spent a lot of time and work getting my education and more time learning new things every day than you can imagine. I do everything I can to help my patients and my family to become healthy. You can think whatever the hell you want but when you attack me, you better be able to back that **** up. So far "I was accepted into Chiro college" isn't doing it.
I've given you facts based on science and research. All you've given me is bull**** and attacks.

[achiro]

I don't think that anyone is in major disagreement that for the majority of cases, high blood pressure is best regulated by changes in lifestyle. Please note that my first post noted that I switched jobs and cut the sodium levels in my diet way down. The first post you made in this thread was in response to someone saying that medicine in addition to lifestyle changes help people overcome HBP.

For some people-like me!-high blood pressure was such an immediately life-threatening thing that I did not have TIME for lifestyle changes to work before I stroked out. So yeah, the medicine is what I used in conjunction with the lifestyle changes. I DO plan on getting off the medication as soon as my doctor says it's safe.

Unfortunately, many people don't understand that the lifestyle change is necessary for ANY treatment regimen no matter whether you go to a doctor or chiropracter. There is no magic bullet for good health, and I think we agree that medicines only treat symptoms, not underlying causes (at least for the most part.)

My underlying causes were being in a high-stress job and eating like a Calcutta whore in a McDonald's as well as not enough exercise. I've changed two of the three underlying causes, and I'm working on the third.

I agree completely with everything you posted here except "The first post you made in this thread was in response to someone saying that medicine in addition to lifestyle changes help people overcome HBP."

it was actually:
"meds will help you live a longer, happier and more comfortable life."
and I do disagree with that assesment based on how I read it.

The rest of yourpost is spot on IMO. Thats how most meds should be used IMO. Temporarily in crisis situations while giving time to find the real cause.

[Frozen Sooner]

you really oughtta do something to break a sweat occasionally. That, combined with meds will help you live a longer, happier and more comfortable life.

This is what you quoted and responded "Bull****e" to with a bit more context thrown in. Please note the word "combined".

Homey was advocating a lifestyle change.

[OUthunder]

Most Chiropractor have absolutley no interest in prescribing drugs. If you haven't gotten why that is, you haven't been paying attention.


That's why every year they try and try and get turned down.:rolleyes:

[1stTimeCaller]

Do you smoke a lot of dope?
:D

I wish I did, I wish I did...

[OUthunder]

Chiropractors shouldn't even be allowed to be called doctors... because they're not. A chiropractor is about as much a doctor as a person with ONLY a PhD.

[soonerbrat]

With a mass statement like that, ignorant may be a huge understatement.
I do take this as a personal attack. I love what I do. chiropractic is part of who I am. I love helping people become healthier than they ever imagined. I spent a lot of time and work getting my education and more time learning new things every day than you can imagine. I do everything I can to help my patients and my family to become healthy. You can think whatever the hell you want but when you attack me, you better be able to back that **** up. So far "I was accepted into Chiro college" isn't doing it.
I've given you facts based on science and research. All you've given me is bull**** and attacks.


I'm sorry if this seems like a personal attack. Being called "ignorant" IS a personal attack and that was your word to describe me and my medical knowledge. Like I said, you don't know my medical background. You don't know what I've read, studied, experienced or observed, and for you to call me "ignorant" without those facts shows your own ignorance of my personal life.

I'm not going to sit here and list every medical training course I have ever had, nor list every medical journal, article, textbook or other source that I have read or studied on these subjects. the "facts" that you presented about what chiropractic causes looks mighty similar to the effects of getting a massage. But massage therapists don't claim to be cure-alls for every ailment. I rank chiropractic care right up there with acupuncture and hypnosis when it comes to curing ailments. But like I said, I'm all for getting an adjustment for temporary relief of a backache or strained neck.

[soonerbrat]

P.S. I respect that you enjoy what you do and that you do everything you can for your patients. Congratulations on finding a fullfilling career.

[achiro]

That's why every year they try and try and get turned down.:rolleyes:
Where are you getting this information.
A small group of chiro's here in Oklahoma tried a few years ago but it was shot down by OTHER chiro's!

[achiro]

Chiropractors shouldn't even be allowed to be called doctors... because they're not. A chiropractor is about as much a doctor as a person with ONLY a PhD.
To start with, I have known several PhD's over the years that I refer to as Doctor.
Second, by definition, doctor means teacher. So I don't think you know what the hell you are talking about here other than trying to be derogatory.

So in short. you don't like it, try and change it through legislation.:rolleyes:

[achiro]

I'm sorry if this seems like a personal attack. Being called "ignorant" IS a personal attack and that was your word to describe me and my medical knowledge.
Being ignorant of a subject is a fact, not an attack. Being called a quack is an attack. An ignorant attack, but an attack all the same.

Like I said, you don't know my medical background. You don't know what I've read, studied, experienced or observed, and for you to call me "ignorant" without those facts shows your own ignorance of my personal life. I'm not going to sit here and list every medical training course I have ever had, nor list every medical journal, article, textbook or other source that I have read or studied on these subjects.
The very fact that you are trying to equate medical knowledge of any kind to Chiropractic shows the ignorance of Chiropractic.


The "facts" that you presented about what chiropractic causes looks mighty similar to the effects of getting a massage. But massage therapists don't claim to be cure-alls for every ailment.
Message therapy has a lot of benefit. It does nothing to mobilize a "fixed" or locked joint. It can mobilize a joint that already has motion which does help(much like getting off your arse and exercising)
Therefore it cannot decrease nociception, or increase proprioception in the way an adjutment can.


I'm still waiting on you to show me any informed or scientific basis of your ignorant claim that all Chiro's are quacks.

[Kels]

My wife has an autoimmune disease. The disorder has only been identified for 15 years or so, and there is no cure. Drug therapy keeps her alive.

She has sought medical help from almost every area of the science: rheumatology, general practice, hematology, gynecology, ophthalmology, neurology, dental science, osteopathy, allergists, gastroenterology, physical therapy, you name it. We have sought medical help from Scott & White in Temple, TX to Mayo in Minneapolis, MN.

Chiropractic care was also considered.

Of all of the medical professionals we have worked with during this ten-year journey, chiropractors have been hands-down, the most uninformed and ridiculous in their evaluation and treatment. A distant second was a neuro-psychologist from England. Yes, even the doctor who specialized in pain management that did acupuncture on my wife at John Peter Smith in Fort Worth seemed to have a better grasp of what was going on.

I know that there is sharp disagreement on this subject. I am not impugning the integrity of everyone who is a chiropractor -- just the men we have had contact with during this journey.

Isn't it interesting that there are others who have similar experiences and opinions?

Lest you consider my family to be fans of organized medicine, my wife grew up in a church that only practiced faith healing and did not visit doctors. She did not go to doctors regularly until we were married. I am inherently suspicious of organized medicine myself, and tend toward naturopathic and other remedies.

Just my opinion . . .

[soonerbrat]

you're awfully defensive. you must have heard all this before.

Like I said, I'm not going to sit here and list every resource that i'm basing my PERSONAL OPINION on.

have a nice day.

[FaninAma]

Achiro, being in the pharmacy business for over 15 years I can honestly say, that if you slip the right person in the FDA enough cash, they'll do, say, or even approve almost anything. I'm sure there is some truth to what you say, but if I felt that a drug therapy wasn't helping me, I surely wouldn't fork out the cash every month to feel worse.

With that said, just because you're thin, work-out, and live a healthy life style doesn't mean that your genetic make-up is any better than a person that is over weight who sets in front of the tube. I know several health freaks that have high BP, high cholesterol, or heart related problems that are just genetic in orientation. Sometimes you have NO control over your health and drugs (for the most part) do more harm than good. I'm living proof.

You've got that right on both points. I've dealt personally with the FDA and currently they are just a rubber stamp for the big pharmaceuticals.

I work out 4 to 5 times a week both cardio and weight training. Recently my diastolic BP has increased by about 20 points mainly due to stress. I am taking it as a sign that I need to make thast career shift I've been contemplating for a while. IMO, stress is the number one killer in this country today.

[soonerbrat]

i think achiro's blood pressure is rising. he'd better go get an adjustment..quick!

[OUthunder]

My wife has an autoimmune disease. The disorder has only been identified for 15 years or so, and there is no cure. Drug therapy keeps her alive.

She has sought medical help from almost every area of the science: rheumatology, general practice, hematology, gynecology, ophthalmology, neurology, dental science, osteopathy, allergists, gastroenterology, physical therapy, you name it. We have sought medical help from Scott & White in Temple, TX to Mayo in Minneapolis, MN.

Chiropractic care was also considered.

Of all of the medical professionals we have worked with during this ten-year journey, chiropractors have been hands-down, the most uninformed and ridiculous in their evaluation and treatment. A distant second was a neuro-psychologist from England. Yes, even the doctor who specialized in pain management that did acupuncture on my wife at John Peter Smith in Fort Worth seemed to have a better grasp of what was going on.

I know that there is sharp disagreement on this subject. I am not impugning the integrity of everyone who is a chiropractor -- just the men we have had contact with during this journey.

Isn't it interesting that there are others who have similar experiences and opinions?

Lest you consider my family to be fans of organized medicine, my wife grew up in a church that only practiced faith healing and did not visit doctors. She did not go to doctors regularly until we were married. I am inherently suspicious of organized medicine myself, and tend toward naturopathic and other remedies.

Just my opinion . . .



My wife is a rheumatologist and her main interets and specialty is Lupus & Sjögren's Syndrome. Is it one of those?

[OUthunder]

You've got that right on both points. I've dealt personally with the FDA and currently they are just a rubber stamp for the big pharmaceuticals.

I work out 4 to 5 times a week both cardio and weight training. Recently my diastolic BP has increased by about 20 points mainly due to stress. I am taking it as a sign that I need to make thast career shift I've been contemplating for a while. IMO, stress is the number one killer in this country today.


Love me some Rezulin.;)

[achiro]

you're awfully defensive. you must have heard all this before.
Yes, from ignorant and uninformed people that have no scientific validity of their opinions. Over the years I have taken the time to educate people to what I do. As a result I have several medical doctors, including Neurologists, orthopedic surgeons, and neurosurgeons who have come in as patients, have brought their families in as patients, and who continually refer patients. They were ignorant until educated on the facts and science. They now understand and support Chiropractic. So with all due respect, I don't give a damn what your medical background is. You are still ignorant about chiropractic.
I am still amazed that you think its ok to make such a broad statement without any facts to back it up.

[Kels]

My wife is a rheumatologist and her main interets and specialty is Lupus & Sjögren's Syndrome. Is it one of those?

Ah, you're good.

She has APS and Sjogren's. Dr. McArthur in Norman was the one who finally diagnosed what was wrong. She doesn't have Lupus. She's now a part of Dr. Merrill's ten year cohort in OKC.

We're praying that there will be Lovenox in pill form soon. She was on heparin injections 3x a day and the coumadin treatment has really been dangerous for her as well.

[1stTimeCaller]

I'll tell you guys my method to keep the ticker healthy. I masturbate frequently and fervently, I drink beer that tastes good to me, I attend at least one live music event every week, I laugh more than 50 times a day and when I can't find a bathroom I don't worry about it, I just use the floor.

*no guarantees that this will work for you but it works for me*

[OUthunder]

Yes, from ignorant and uninformed people that have no scientific validity of their opinions. Over the years I have taken the time to educate people to what I do. As a result I have several medical doctors, including Neurologists, orthopedic surgeons, and neurosurgeons who have come in as patients, have brought their families in as patients, and who continually refer patients. They were ignorant until educated on the facts and science. They now understand and support Chiropractic. So with all due respect, I don't give a damn what your medical background is. You are still ignorant about chiropractic.
I am still amazed that you think its ok to make such a broad statement without any facts to back it up.


Achiro, I have nothing against you personally and I never meant to insult or offend you. I just find it funny that someone who's in one of the least respected fields in healthcare (chiropractic) toots his own horn so loud about the profession. Chiropractors are some of the biggest con artists and crooks in the entire health profession (you do not sound like one of them). I'm a pharmacist and have been for in some capacity for nearly 15 years. I'll be the first to admit that my profession has become somewhat of a joke over the past 5-6 years not takking up for themselves and allowing the insurance companies to control every thing we do. Plus the big chains didn't help any. Thus I got out because it became all about the money and not about healthcare. We just agree to disagree.

Good luck.

[achiro]

one of the least respected fields in healthcare
By who? Thats one of the stupidest things I've ever read on his board.(and there have been some reeeeeally stupid things posted over the years.)
That is an opinion that you are trying to present as fact.
This is why we now have Chiropractors on staff it hospitals across the country with more and more being added every day? This is why INFORMED medical doctors are using chiropractic as a large part of their patient referrals. I mean come on!

I have posted my piece in a few different places here. Instead of making any effort to debate the facts you and a couple of others continue to try and attack Chiropractic. God forbid you try to show some scientific validity behind what so far is only uninformed opinions.

[soonerbrat]

Yes, from ignorant and uninformed people that have no scientific validity of their opinions. Over the years I have taken the time to educate people to what I do. As a result I have several medical doctors, including Neurologists, orthopedic surgeons, and neurosurgeons who have come in as patients, have brought their families in as patients, and who continually refer patients. They were ignorant until educated on the facts and science. They now understand and support Chiropractic. So with all due respect, I don't give a damn what your medical background is. You are still ignorant about chiropractic.
I am still amazed that you think its ok to make such a broad statement without any facts to back it up.


I don't need to give you any FACTS to state a PERSONAL OPINION.

i'm allowed to base my PERSONAL OPINION on whatever I choose to base it on, whether you like it or not.

[opksooner]

BUT:

I've found that taking a fiber supplement not only helps with cholesterol, but also with my bp. And back to exercise, I'm 120/70 and my resting heart rate is in the 50's. I discovered the benefits of fiber with a Rexall product called bioslife2, but even with "regular" fiber supplements, it's still all good.

Plus, I can do an impersonation of the space shuttle launch twice a day.

That covers it for "form". How about "color" and "consistency"?
.
.
.

[soonerbrat]

Chiropractic's Unique Theory
Chiropractic's uniqueness lies not in its use of SMT, but in its theoretical reason for doing so. just as prescientific osteopathy found its justification in the "rule of the artery" (the belief that manipulation improved circulation by reducing muscle spasms), chiropractic is based upon the "rule of the nerve" (the belief that SMT has important effects upon "nerve flow").

The word chiropractic literally means "done by hand." The term was adopted by chiropractic's founder, Daniel David Palmer. Palmer was a layman with an intense interest in metaphysical health philosophies such as magnetic healing (Mesmer's "animal magnetism"), phrenology, and spiritualism. In 1895, he claimed to have restored the hearing of a nearly deaf janitor by manipulating the man's spine.

Obsessed with uncovering "the primary cause of disease," Palmer theorized that "95 percent of all disease" was caused by spinal "subluxations" (partial dislocations) and the rest by "luxated bones elsewhere in the body." Palmer speculated that subluxations impinged upon spinal nerves, impeding their function, and that this led to disease. He taught that medical diagnosis was unnecessary, that one need only correct the subluxations to liberate the body's own natural healing forces. He disdained physicians for treating only symptoms, alleging that, in contrast, his system corrected the cause of disease.

Palmer did not employ the term subluxation in its medical sense, but with a metaphysical, pantheistic meaning. He believed that the subluxations interfered with the body's expression, of the "Universal Intelligence" (God), which Palmer dubbed the "Innate Intelligence." (soul, spirit, or spark of life). [9] Palmer's notion of having discovered a way to manipulate metaphysical life force is sometimes referred to as his "biotheology."

...............

Palmer can be forgiven for his nineteenth-century misconceptions, but his followers cannot be excused for failing to avail themselves of the scientific advances of the twentieth century to test chiropractic theory and practice. In fact, chiropractors have never defined a subluxation in measurable terms, nor shown that it even exists. Despite the ability of neurophysiologists to measure nerve impulses, chiropractors have not shown that impinging a spinal nerve alters an impulse beyond the zone of impingement, nor have they shown that disrupting a nerve impulse produces disease. Yale University anatomist Edmund Crelin, Ph.D., demonstrated that only a disabling spinal injury could produce the impingement that Palmer posited as the basis for chiropractic

[achiro]

Chiropractic's Unique Theory
Chiropractic's uniqueness lies not in its use of SMT, but in its theoretical reason for doing so. just as prescientific osteopathy found its justification in the "rule of the artery" (the belief that manipulation improved circulation by reducing muscle spasms), chiropractic is based upon the "rule of the nerve" (the belief that SMT has important effects upon "nerve flow").

The word chiropractic literally means "done by hand." The term was adopted by chiropractic's founder, Daniel David Palmer. Palmer was a layman with an intense interest in metaphysical health philosophies such as magnetic healing (Mesmer's "animal magnetism"), phrenology, and spiritualism. In 1895, he claimed to have restored the hearing of a nearly deaf janitor by manipulating the man's spine.

Obsessed with uncovering "the primary cause of disease," Palmer theorized that "95 percent of all disease" was caused by spinal "subluxations" (partial dislocations) and the rest by "luxated bones elsewhere in the body." Palmer speculated that subluxations impinged upon spinal nerves, impeding their function, and that this led to disease. He taught that medical diagnosis was unnecessary, that one need only correct the subluxations to liberate the body's own natural healing forces. He disdained physicians for treating only symptoms, alleging that, in contrast, his system corrected the cause of disease.

Palmer did not employ the term subluxation in its medical sense, but with a metaphysical, pantheistic meaning. He believed that the subluxations interfered with the body's expression, of the "Universal Intelligence" (God), which Palmer dubbed the "Innate Intelligence." (soul, spirit, or spark of life). [9] Palmer's notion of having discovered a way to manipulate metaphysical life force is sometimes referred to as his "biotheology."

...............

Palmer can be forgiven for his nineteenth-century misconceptions, but his followers cannot be excused for failing to avail themselves of the scientific advances of the twentieth century to test chiropractic theory and practice. In fact, chiropractors have never defined a subluxation in measurable terms, nor shown that it even exists. Despite the ability of neurophysiologists to measure nerve impulses, chiropractors have not shown that impinging a spinal nerve alters an impulse beyond the zone of impingement, nor have they shown that disrupting a nerve impulse produces disease. Yale University anatomist Edmund Crelin, Ph.D., demonstrated that only a disabling spinal injury could produce the impingement that Palmer posited as the basis for chiropractic
Where did you google that crap from.:rolleyes: Please tell me it was from Steve B's stuff, please tell me it was.

I gave you the science behind how Chiropractic works and instead of even attempting to debate that, you go find this????
Thanks for making my job easier.:D

[OUthunder]

I have worked in four hospitals in four different states and I have NEVER EVER seen a chiropractor on site, on call, or even mentioned in a hospital directory.

On a side note. I could find something I'm sure about my statements but why? Most people know that Chiropractors are just a step up from ambulance chasers.

[achiro]

By who? Thats one of the stupidest things I've ever read on his board.(and there have been some reeeeeally stupid things posted over the years.)
That is an opinion that you are trying to present as fact.
This is why we now have Chiropractors on staff it hospitals across the country with more and more being added every day? This is why INFORMED medical doctors are using chiropractic as a large part of their patient referrals. I mean come on!

I have posted my piece in a few different places here. Instead of making any effort to debate the facts you and a couple of others continue to try and attack Chiropractic. God forbid you try to show some scientific validity behind what so far is only uninformed opinions.
Thunder, my apologies. I get a little fired up when someone calls me an unrespected con artist quack. Whether or not that was your intention, thats the way I read it.
I would think to be a con artist, you would have to be lying to people and just because you may not agree with what I've said, it is based on science not lies.

I'm still curious as to your response to my scientific explaination to how a chiropractic adjustment works???

[soonerbrat]

Where did you google that crap from.:rolleyes: Please tell me it was from Steve B's stuff, please tell me it was.

I gave you the science behind how Chiropractic works and instead of even attempting to debate that, you go find this????
Thanks for making my job easier.:D


what science did you give me? what journal articles did you present? what studies did you show me? what published scientific data did you cite?

what you gave us is just as much googled crap as you claim my information to be.

Prove to me the information I provided is wrong. Show me a scientific study that proves that "subluxations" exist.

[soonerbrat]

P.S. I am still entitled to my opinion

and the more you get defensive...well, i'll just say..methinks thou dost protest too much

i think you have a chip on your shoulder.

you'd better test your blood pressure.

[mrowl]

I think my chrio is great, and combined with other things I do, is a great addition to my wellness

but, there are hundreds of chiros out there that try the "scare tactics" with you... (ex. making your spouse come to the appointment to tell everything that is wrong)

[1stTimeCaller]

subluxations

that sounds like something you'd find in Al Gore or martin's bedroom closet.

[achiro]

what science did you give me? what journal articles did you present? what studies did you show me? what published scientific data did you cite?

what you gave us is just as much googled crap as you claim my information to be.

Prove to me the information I provided is wrong. Show me a scientific study that proves that "subluxations" exist.

I gave it to you. You want the specific studies, let me know what part of my post you take exception with, and why!, and I will be more than happy to give you some references. I assure you , I didn't google a thing for that post. There are literally hundreds of studies proving what I gave you and I don't have the time nor the will to type that dang much.

You still didn't tell me where you googled that from? Was it from one of Steve's sites? Tell me it was, please.

[achiro]

P.S. I am still entitled to my opinion

and the more you get defensive...well, i'll just say..methinks thou dost protest too much

i think you have a chip on your shoulder.

you'd better test your blood pressure.
You call me a quack and I'm not allowed to get defensive? You continued to whine and cry about me calling you ignorant on Chiropractic and still you haven't given one single bit of info as to why that would be a valid opinion.

All I have done is given facts, you don't like facts or choose to ignore them. That is not only ignorance at work but also bias.

And I do have a chip on my shoulder, I am sick and tired of people like you spreading bull**** opinions as fact. When in reality, there is NO fact to your opinion.

So yet again I say, I am waiting, let me know what part of my posts you want to debate? What part of my posts science are you in disagreement with? What science do you have to argue mine?
I am waiting.

[soonerbrat]

I never said it was a fact, I never spread it as a fact and i never claimed my OPINION to be a fact.

do you have reading comprehension problems?

[1stTimeCaller]

I never said it was a fact, I never spread it as a fact and i never claimed my OPINION to be a fact.

do you have a reading comprehension problems.


I'm just being a jackass

[soonerbrat]

achiro, you have proven nothing except that you have a chip on your shoulder. you have given me no scientific evidence whatsoever. you have listed what chiropractors BELIEVE, not what has been proven. I'm sorry, but your OPINIONS are not swaying my OPINION.

I'm sure you really believe in what you are doing and provide the best patient care you know how. I don't think you believe that you are doing harm to anyone. But I won't apologize for having an opinion. In MY OPINION, chiropractic care is not a cure-all for any disease. It provides TEMPORARY relief of backaches and/or neckaches.

And that's all I'm saying.
Live long and prosper.

[OUthunder]

Achiro,

here ya go.

Please don't tell me that the New England Journal of medicine is full of pooey!

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chiroeval.html

[soonerbrat]

wait, i have one more thing to say.

doing YOGA has helped my back and neck more than ANY chiropractic care I ever received.

the end.

[IB4OU2]

wait, i have one more thing to say.

doing YOGA has helped my back and neck more than ANY chiropractic care I ever received.

the end.

Is he Yogi's brother?............;)

[achiro]

Achiro,

here ya go.

Please don't tell me that the New England Journal of medicine is full of pooey!

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chiroeval.html
Ah, yes, there it is. Stephen Barretts quackwatch site. No better bs site out there...and the courts agree. I'm actually a little surprised its still up since the court battle that he recently lost. I won't go into all the sultry details, just know that Barretts sites are very much agenda driven, the courts agreed and he lost the suit.
And how are you comparing quackwatch with the NEJoM?

[mrowl]

wait, i have one more thing to say.

doing YOGA has helped my back and neck more than ANY chiropractic care I ever received.

the end.

yoga has 100 times more affect to the human body. good move brat

[mdklatt]

yoga has 100 times more affect to the human body.

And it makes you bendy. :texan:

[achiro]

achiro, you have proven nothing except that you have a chip on your shoulder. you have given me no scientific evidence whatsoever. you have listed what chiropractors BELIEVE, not what has been proven. I'm sorry, but your OPINIONS are not swaying my OPINION.

I'm sure you really believe in what you are doing and provide the best patient care you know how. I don't think you believe that you are doing harm to anyone. But I won't apologize for having an opinion. In MY OPINION, chiropractic care is not a cure-all for any disease. It provides TEMPORARY relief of backaches and/or neckaches.

And that's all I'm saying.
Live long and prosper.

I have given you scientific evidence. It has nothing to do with belief vs proven because it is proven. I have told you several times now that I am more than happy to give you the scientific references to specific things in that post that you take exception with. What part don't you like? That stress increases cortisol? That a nociceptor is a nerve? Which part?
You have yet to do tell me which tells me that you don't want to learn, just bash.
Really, who has the comprehension problem here?
You called me a quack, I called you on it, you didn't like it and can't back it up so you try and bash me instead.

[achiro]

wait, i have one more thing to say.

doing YOGA has helped my back and neck more than ANY chiropractic care I ever received.

the end.
you said you had tried 2 chiropractors over the years?
How long have you been doing Yoga compared to Chiropractic?

Yoga is awesome BTW. Lowers stress and gets the body moving.

[achiro]

yoga has 100 times more affect to the human body. good move brat
What journal did you read that in and can you get me a copy?

[mrowl]

What journal did you read that in and can you get me a copy?

don't have to. you would know this if you have a regular practice.

[OUthunder]

Chiropractic insurance fraud is so bad in this country that I could fill the SO with the amount of crap I found about it on the web. I'm glad that I haven't bought into the crap that is chiropractic care.

The proof is in the pudding.

[achiro]

Chiropractic insurance fraud is so bad in this country that I could fill the SO with the amount of crap I found about it on the web. I'm glad that I haven't bought into the crap that is chiropractic care.

The proof is in the pudding.
:rolleyes:
Keep trying.

[mdklatt]

Does achiro look anything like this?

http://www.rudecactus.com/archives/JonCryer_Grani_1248897_400.jpg

[achiro]

I'm still waiting.

[OUthunder]

If achiro denies that Chiropractic is one of the most corrupt healthcare related practices in the world today, he is either high or never been part of the profession.

[achiro]

If achiro denies that Chiropractic is one of the most corrupt healthcare related practices in the world today, he is either high or never been part of the profession.
Do I threaten you thunder? Are you afraid that people will see the truth? Is that why you continue to try and attack Chiropractic instead of talking about the science?

How many people died from taking drugs that you handed them over the years Thunder? How many people have died as a result of your wife's care? I will be more than happy to compare body bags if you really want to get nasty. I want to talk about facts which apparently nobody else wants to do.

[OUthunder]

Do I threaten you thunder? Are you afraid that people will see the truth? Is that why you continue to try and attack Chiropractic instead of talking about the science?

How many people died from taking drugs that you handed them over the years Thunder? How many people have died as a result of your wife's care? I will be more than happy to compare body bags if you really want to get nasty. I want to talk about facts which apparently nobody else wants to do.


Settle down. I rarely feel threatened by anyone, but it seems that you are though. Many of us have given you examples but you "cop out" about every single one. When you denied that there are serious problems in the chiropractic industry I knew you were more than likely not a chiropractor. Even the best chiropractor would admit to the problems facing there profession.

I'm out. Enjoy your work.

[Oldnslo]

Waiting for what? Godot?

If you're looking for citations... you didn't give any, either. Yes, I'm aware that certain studies have found chiropractic beneficial. I'm also aware that some of these studies were done at the University of East Popcornski Strada and funded by interested parties. Maybe there are some truly precedential studies out there. I don't know. I'm ignorant.

What I can tell you, based upon 16 years of trial practice on both sides of the fence, is that juries don't put weight in chiropractic. Even the jurors who go to a chiro have the mindset of "My guy is good, but the rest are questionable". You want a spinal manipulation? Go to a D.O. At least you'll get a jury to listen to you.

Some insurance carriers don't even offer 100% of the chiro bill in settlement, waiting instead for the inevitable defense verdict.

As for the part about Chiropracters and "supplements"... It's my understanding that Chiropractic focuses on manipulations as the Way to Health. As such, Chiro's generally eschew drugs. However, supplements are somehow different. I don't know how this works. I'm ignorant here, too.

As for my experience with fiber, I switched from the high-dollar Rexall product to a generic GNC fiber product during a downturn in business. I figured I didn't need to have designer poo. Fortunately, all of the benefits remain.

[OUthunder]

Waiting for what? Godot?

If you're looking for citations... you didn't give any, either. Yes, I'm aware that certain studies have found chiropractic beneficial. I'm also aware that some of these studies were done at the University of East Popcornski Strada and funded by interested parties. Maybe there are some truly precedential studies out there. I don't know. I'm ignorant.

What I can tell you, based upon 16 years of trial practice on both sides of the fence, is that juries don't put weight in chiropractic. Even the jurors who go to a chiro have the mindset of "My guy is good, but the rest are questionable". You want a spinal manipulation? Go to a D.O. At least you'll get a jury to listen to you.

Some insurance carriers don't even offer 100% of the chiro bill in settlement, waiting instead for the inevitable defense verdict.

As for the part about Chiropracters and "supplements"... It's my understanding that Chiropractic focuses on manipulations as the Way to Health. As such, Chiro's generally eschew drugs. However, supplements are somehow different. I don't know how this works. I'm ignorant here, too.

As for my experience with fiber, I switched from the high-dollar Rexall product to a generic GNC fiber product during a downturn in business. I figured I didn't need to have designer poo. Fortunately, all of the benefits remain.

WERD! :D

[Frozen Sooner]

Do I threaten you thunder? Are you afraid that people will see the truth? Is that why you continue to try and attack Chiropractic instead of talking about the science?

How many people died from taking drugs that you handed them over the years Thunder? How many people have died as a result of your wife's care? I will be more than happy to compare body bags if you really want to get nasty. I want to talk about facts which apparently nobody else wants to do.

Do you have any idea how much you sound like Tom Cruise right now?

[OUthunder]

Ah, you're good.

She has APS and Sjogren's. Dr. McArthur in Norman was the one who finally diagnosed what was wrong. She doesn't have Lupus. She's now a part of Dr. Merrill's ten year cohort in OKC.

We're praying that there will be Lovenox in pill form soon. She was on heparin injections 3x a day and the coumadin treatment has really been dangerous for her as well.


My wife knows Dr. McArthur. Best of luck!

[Oldnslo]

Do you have any idea how much you sound like Tom Cruise right now?
Glib, Froz! You're glib!

[OUthunder]

I bet achiro's wife gave birth naturally too.

[NormanPride]

This thread has gotten really creepy... But I'll still post what I wanted to say.

I recently had a massage (which was awesome, btw) and had a nice discussion with the guy about Chiropractiors. He noted that most Chiros concentrate on where the muscles connect with the bone, whereas masseuses concentrate on the center of the muscle. He said he had met lots of people treated for whiplash that had their range of motion back, but still had horrible problems with the actual muscle. I took it as "difference in areas of practice" rather than incompetence.

I know next to nothing about all of this. I just wanted to relate what a masseuse said (one that didn't seem to have too much of an issue with chiros).

[achiro]

Waiting for what? Godot?

If you're looking for citations... you didn't give any, either.
I've been called a quack. I have defended myself with scientific validation. Which in return have been attacked again without anyone even saying so much as, "thats interesting but..." Its fine and dandy to attack someone but when called on it, I would expect someone to either come back with questions about what I said, or agree with it. Not continue to come up with new attacks.




What I can tell you, based upon 16 years of trial practice on both sides of the fence, is that juries don't put weight in chiropractic. Even the jurors who go to a chiro have the mindset of "My guy is good, but the rest are questionable". You want a spinal manipulation? Go to a D.O. At least you'll get a jury to listen to you.

Some insurance carriers don't even offer 100% of the chiro bill in settlement, waiting instead for the inevitable defense verdict.
Sounds to me like you've been using the wrong chiro's. I don't do a lot of PI work in my practice. I really have little interest in it but there are some fantastic docs out there. There are whiplash programs being put on by dc's that md's attend to learn.


As for the part about Chiropracters and "supplements"... It's my understanding that Chiropractic focuses on manipulations as the Way to Health. As such, Chiro's generally eschew drugs. However, supplements are somehow different. I don't know how this works. I'm ignorant here, too.
I agree with you if talking about "herbal remedies" You have to be very careful because they have side effects as well. Supplements on the other hand are generally used to supplement the diet where it is lacking. ie essential fatty acids(essential because we don't produce them naturally they have to be eaten)


As for my experience with fiber, I switched from the high-dollar Rexall product to a generic GNC fiber product during a downturn in business. I figured I didn't need to have designer poo. Fortunately, all of the benefits remain.
Fiber is a very underutilized supplement. The average American diet doesn't get nearly enough.

[achiro]

I bet achiro's wife gave birth naturally too.
Nope, c-section...twice. Hard to deliver naturally when the water breaks and no contractions ever start.
If you look back however many pages, I said that drugs have their place. Though way overused. Then the attacks came and I started defending myself.

As far as Tom Cruise, I said when he did all that stuff that it was too bad he came across like an insane person because some of what he was saying was actually valid. That stuff got overlooked though because of the way it was delivered.

[OUthunder]

Nope, c-section...twice. Hard to deliver naturally when the water breaks and no contractions ever start.
If you look back however many pages, I said that drugs have their place. Though way overused. Then the attacks came and I started defending myself.

As far as Tom Cruise, I said when he did all that stuff that it was too bad he came across like an insane person because some of what he was saying was actually valid. That stuff got overlooked though because of the way it was delivered.


I never attacked you personally, I attacked your supposed "profession."

The wife comment was a joke but I think you got that. :D

Have a good one.

[crawfish]

I used to live beside a chiro. He didn't believe in putting any chemicals on his lawn. Of course, I spread the fire ant killer on my own lawn, being very careful not to get any on his lawn, as did his other neighbors...and the street's entire fire ant population congregated in his yard.

The end.

[Oldnslo]

Sounds to me like you've been using the wrong chiro's.
Snot just me. I don't think I've ever tried a Plaintiff's case with only a Chiro. I've defended cases where Plaintiffs have had only their Chiro testify, though. I don't think I've lost one of those. Don't really remember, but I'm pretty sure.

What most Plaintiff's attorneys do now is hire an MD or DO to do a records review. That way, you can have a put-in-front-of-the-jury Doctor who says everything that's wrong with the plaintiff. Otherwise, you have the IME board certified orthopedic surgeon v. Plaintiff's Chiro With A Lien On The Case. That's tough to overcome.

With a records review, the defense can attack because the new doc wasn't treating during the time of the care, but that's much more easily handled than the other scenario.

[mdklatt]

Sounds to me like you've been using the wrong chiro's.

And the light bulb just came on...achiro = a chiro. I've always pronounced it "acheero" in my head. :O

[Frozen Sooner]

Yeah, I thought he was Japanese at first.

[achiro]

And the light bulb just came on...achiro = a chiro. I've always pronounced it "acheero" in my head. :O
So I'm assuming all the science I posted went way over your head.:D

[Frozen Sooner]

You posted some science? I just saw some unsubstantiated quasi-new-age stuff.

KIDDING KIDDING!

Just messing with you man.

[oumartin]

i still wouldn't have gotten it if not for you guy. achiro. shouldnt it be aquack? ;)


Just kiddin' there big boy.

[achiro]

My incense has burned out, I have one patient left to dangle crystals over. Then it is off to say prayers to mother earth and go home for the day. I hope my aura isn't to dark from this debate, I may have to sit in my feng shui bedroom all evening and recharge with some beet root juice and bean sprouts for dinner.

[SoonerInKCMO]

My gawd, you are just a shameless agitator!:oink:

Yes, yes I am. :texan:


This thread has far exceeded my expectations on name-calling, character impugning and general rancor. :D

[mrowl]

back to frozens thing...

changing jobs sounds like the best answer. :D

[Tailwind]

This thread has become very stress-inducing, which I seriously doubt was Froz's intention. Valium anyone?:D

[XingTheRubicon]

Achiro is dead on concerning the over medication in the U.S. Brat is also correct about some chiropractors leaning toward $ in lieu of care. Thunder is also correct about chiros reputation in general.

However, that rep is stained in part by the powers that be that peddle drugs, for Chiros do not serve their interests. Some Chiros are very effective, compasionate healers and some are used car salesmen with a white coat.

[Fugue]

Achiro is dead on concerning the over medication in the U.S. Brat is also correct about some chiropractors leaning toward $ in lieu of care. Thunder is also correct about chiros reputation in general.

However, that rep is stained in part by the powers that be that peddle drugs, for Chiros do not serve their interests. Some Chiros are very effective, compasionate healers and some are used car salesmen with a white coat.

that's shotgun a5skissing at its finest, everybody is covered. :D ;)

[Sooner_Bob]

this thread took a turn

[achiro]

Achiro is dead on concerning the over medication in the U.S. Brat is also correct about some chiropractors leaning toward $ in lieu of care. Thunder is also correct about chiros reputation in general.

However, that rep is stained in part by the powers that be that peddle drugs, for Chiros do not serve their interests. Some Chiros are very effective, compasionate healers and some are used car salesmen with a white coat.
I don't wear a white coat, especially after labor day, does that make me ok?:D

[soonerbrat]

wishy. washy

[OUthunder]

that's shotgun a5skissing at its finest, everybody is covered. :D ;)



It's called Diplomacy.:D

[Okieflyer]

I would argue that a healthy person wouldn't get the infection in the first place. The antibiotics can help your body do something that it should have been able to do on its own if it were healthy. That is to get not sick. The antibiotics do nothing to boost your immune system and in fact have shown to lower your bodies ability to fight on its own.

I'm sorry but the harsh reality is that there are no real short cuts to long term health. Many BP meds have shown a 30% increase in diabetes in those taking them, is that healthy? The meds are a good short term solution in amny cases but diet, exercise, stress reduction techniques, among other things are all very effective to lower blood pressure.

I just glad someone is saying this. Antibiotics are taken way to much. It a quick fix in someways to just getting rest. But we have to go, go, go. I feel you need to let your own body fight it off, most of the time. And of course being healthier would definately help.

Disclaimer: This is an opinion form an ignorant poster.

[yermom]

Achiro is dead on concerning the over medication in the U.S. Brat is also correct about some chiropractors leaning toward $ in lieu of care. Thunder is also correct about chiros reputation in general.

However, that rep is stained in part by the powers that be that peddle drugs, for Chiros do not serve their interests. Some Chiros are very effective, compasionate healers and some are used car salesmen with a white coat.

i was thinking a lot of the same thing

just because there is a lot of insurance fraud doesn't mean there is not something valid there, it means that there a crooks with the ability to easily overcharge or whatever... are all mechanics quacks? ;)

i'm with you on the Tom Cruise thing achiro, after being prescribed Ritalin (along with half my family) i tend to think it's a bit much... of course he's a psycho though