Not only was Jimmy Carter one of the worst Presidents ever...

[OklahomaTuba]

Seems he is also one hell of a hypocrite.

Also interesting, that makes the last two democratic administrations that have said warrentless spying does not violate the Constitution.

Glad to know they waited until we were at WAR to make an issue of this stuff, and break the time honored code among previous Presidents. Perfect timing!


Former President Jimmy Carter, who publicly rebuked President Bush's warrantless eavesdropping program this week during the funeral of Coretta Scott King and at a campaign event, used similar surveillance against suspected spies.

"Under the Bush administration, there's been a disgraceful and illegal decision -- we're not going to the let the judges or the Congress or anyone else know that we're spying on the American people," Mr. Carter said Monday in Nevada when his son Jack announced his Senate campaign. ...

But in 1977, Mr. Carter and his attorney general, Griffin B. Bell, authorized warrantless electronic surveillance used in the conviction of two men for spying on behalf of Vietnam.http://www.washtimes.com/national/20060210-110722-2189r.htm

[Jimminy Crimson]

He should stick to building houses and growing peanuts.

Rumor is, he's starring in the next edition of 'Grumpy Old Men'.

[85Sooner]

He's a tool. A useless one at that.

[OklahomaTuba]

One of my fav Jimmah moments.
http://bokertov.typepad.com/btb/images/jimmy_carter_michael_moore.jpg

[Jimminy Crimson]

I bet Rosalyn and Michael hooked up after Jimmy passed out that night. ;)

[OklahomaTuba]

Heh. That billy beer is strong ****.

[VeeJay]

My experience has been that as people approach 80 they begin to mellow out just a tad.

Jimmy seems to be getting more bitter as the years go by. That 1980 *** whippin' really took its toll.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

He's reverting to childhood, and childish behaviour. Probably can't fathom why W was re-elected.

[Octavian]

Probably can't fathom why W was elected.

;)

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

;)Can't get over it, can you? Darn those "rigged elections" and that silly electoral college rule. What a wonderful country we woulda had if only Algore or the fraudulent Vietnam War hero could have gotten in.:P

[SicEmBaylor]

On the issue of warrantless wiretaps; my personal opinion is if those wiretaps are going to be used to prosecute anyone in the American court system then they should definitely have FISA authorization.

However, if this information is being used in conjunction in more a military rather than law enforcement role then I don't believe a warrant should be required. For example, if this informaiton is being used to prevent attacks at home or for military operations abroad.

The caveat to all of this is that I don't believe any non-US citizen (even if they are legal residents)operating on behalf of Al-Quaeda should be prosecuted under the American justice system. Even if they are operating within these United States. I don't believe a wiretap would be necessary to take that individual into custody and put them into a military run detention center, however if they were operating in conjunction with an American citizen then the government should need a warrant to prosecute that American.

[Big Red Ron]

His comments were stupid alone. The fact that they were made at Mrs. King's funeral show just how classless the guy is.

[KaiserSooner]

Carter was an ineffectual president.

But that's a step up to W. W is easily the worst president of my short lifetime.

[Octavian]

His comments were stupid alone. The fact that they were made at Mrs. King's funeral show just how classless the guy is.

She would have agreed w/ him.

Her family stood and applauded BTW.

[Frozen Sooner]

On the issue of warrantless wiretaps; my personal opinion is if those wiretaps are going to be used to prosecute anyone in the American court system then they should definitely have FISA authorization.

However, if this information is being used in conjunction in more a military rather than law enforcement role then I don't believe a warrant should be required. For example, if this informaiton is being used to prevent attacks at home or for military operations abroad.

The caveat to all of this is that I don't believe any non-US citizen (even if they are legal residents)operating on behalf of Al-Quaeda should be prosecuted under the American justice system. Even if they are operating within these United States. I don't believe a wiretap would be necessary to take that individual into custody and put them into a military run detention center, however if they were operating in conjunction with an American citizen then the government should need a warrant to prosecute that American.

Wow. A well-reasoned and argued point in favor of warrantless wiretapping.

Good points, thank you.

[Big Red Ron]

Carter was an ineffectual president.

But that's a step up to W. W is easily the worst president of my short lifetime.Kaiser, I usually respect many things you talk about but that is easily the dumbest yet.

[Big Red Ron]

Wow. A well-reasoned and argued point in favor of warrantless wiretapping.

Good points, thank you.Did you know that every administration from it's invention until it wasn't used anymore monitored every single wire message?

[Big Red Ron]

She would have agreed w/ him.

Her family stood and applauded BTW.Birds of a feather...

It was a funeral man. C'mon Bush was there to give his respects and this is the way they treat him? Had Bush not gone the family (or possie) would have criticized him for not being there. Those ****ers have zero class.

[usmc-sooner]

Bush is hated by many because he doesn't lead by doing what he thinks is popular. He is doing what he thinks is best and not trying to win a popularity contests.

Most people don't want to face the facts that we are facing serious issues. I think he's probably the best president we've had in a while.

[Frozen Sooner]

Did you know that every administration from it's invention until it wasn't used anymore monitored every single wire message?

And your point is...

[Big Red Ron]

Bush is hated by many because he doesn't lead by doing what he thinks is popular. He is doing what he thinks is best and not trying to win a popularity contests.

Most people don't want to face the facts that we are facing serious issues. I think he's probably the best president we've had in a while.Yes, people, especially those prone to be followers often confuse being popular with leadership.

Bush is a wartime president and Oh, by the way, we have a major budget surplus in the last quarter.

[Big Red Ron]

And your point is...Those were domestic and worse than what Bush has done. The whole issue is a perfect example of making a mountain out of a mole hill.

It's real simple, if you aren't sending e-mails to suspected terrorists OUTSIDE the USA, then your mail hasn't been looked at.

[soonerscuba]

What a wonderful country we woulda had if only Algore or the fraudulent Vietnam War hero could have gotten in.:P

Reason A1 I cannot generally support the Republican party. You scream and scream about supporting the troops, but when rubber meets the road it is a pathetic charade (just like Dems saying they support the poor, BTW). Think about this, and really try to let it sink in, people don't give themselves Purple Hearts, the government does. You make broad assertions based on second knowledge and pretend they are facts. Everyone runs dirty campaigns most of the time but the criticism of John Kerry, Al Gore, Max Cleland, John McCain, and Jack Murtha's military careers is simply appalling in my opinion. Attack their opinions, attack their voting record, don't pretend that their service was somehow inferior. Al Gore, the son of a Senator and Harvard graduate went to Vietnam, good on him, he certainly would have made more money here. Max Cleland leaves three limbs in Vietnam and ranks a Captain, gets called unpatriotic and compared to Osama. John McCain was made crazy by his time as a prisoner, so crazy he had a mixed-race child (at least that is what the fine folks of South Carolina were told). And then there is traitor Col. Jack Murtha who hates America so much that he has two Purple Hearts, a Distinguished Service Medal, and a Bronze Star. By all means hate their views, hate them, but at least pretend to keep your money where your mouth is and not attack their service record. I don't attack Bush's because he was there most of the time, and if the US government doesn't think he didn't do anything wrong, neither do I.

[soonerscuba]

Most people don't want to face the facts that we are facing serious issues.

I think this exists on both sides of the aisle. Iraq isn't going well, at this point, I think this is pretty obvious, and there are some choices that we as a nation are going to have to make, and they aren't easy. We can't continue going in the direction we are, and a full pull out is also a bad idea. Pretty much, I think we are kinda ****ed no matter what, and we all know where the buck stops.

[Big Red Ron]

I think this exists on both sides of the aisle. Iraq isn't going well, at this point, I think this is pretty obvious, and there are some choices that we as a nation are going to have to make, and they aren't easy. We can't continue going in the direction we are, and a full pull out is also a bad idea. Pretty much, I think we are kinda ****ed no matter what, and we all know where the buck stops.Ask the Iraqi people how well it's going. Also, ask them if they'd rather have Sadom or the current situation.

[usmc-sooner]

I know the media loves to portray Iraq as a failure but it's not. I mean do you think we are going to bring peace to the mid east in a few years. We've done a hell of job over there inspite of the on going popularity of just all out bashing of Bush and the war but I'm proud of my involvement.

Scuba I agree with you post on the military above I'm not putting any of those guys down. But there are some seriously shady events surrounding Kerry's purple hearts. They include him writing himself up for one. Somebody is going to come back and say well Bush didn't go. People who use this line are all out idiots. Not everyone in the military goes over seas to fight in wars especially the reserves. Any ways are there problems in the mid east -yes
problems in Iraq? -yes Hell these people kill each other and go nuts over cartoons. I think we're doing the best we can do other than wiping them out what else can you do.

[soonerscuba]

Ask the Iraqi people how well it's going. Also, ask them if they'd rather have Sadom or the current situation.

This is where it gets interesting to me. Polls show 80% of the Iraqi people want us out, and 45% support the insurgency. Surely life is better now than under Saddam, but at some point we have to realize that we are propping a feeble democracy and at some point have to face the hard reality that this deal ain't given us any benefits. We as a nation, do not have the resolve to fight a three front war. Afghanistan was absolutely the right thing to do, Iraq seemed like it, but we now know that there were major mistakes made. And now that we have Iran rattling the sabre and honestly I'm a little afraid that if somethings needs to be done, we won't be able to do it.

[OklahomaTuba]

Attack their opinions, attack their voting record, don't pretend that their service was somehow inferior.

Interesting.

No doubt Kerry could have used this sage advice after calling our vets murderers.

Oh, and include Durbin in that as well, after calling the troops nazis on the Senate floor.

Oh but I thought it was just the GOP that did that. :rolleyes:

[OklahomaTuba]

This is where it gets interesting to me. Polls show 80% of the Iraqi people want us out, and 45% support the insurgency.
And what poll would that be? The Michael Moore/Cindy Sheehan poll? :rolleyes:

[usmc-sooner]

Tuba

I read Scuba's post as saying it exists on both sides which is true.

[usmc-sooner]

Just my personal opinion

I think Iraqis are scared we will pull out and are very afraid of getting behind a lot of this out of fear of what may happen to them and their families if we do pull out

[soonerscuba]

But there are some seriously shady events surrounding Kerry's purple hearts. They include him writing himself up for one.

This is not the opinion of the Navy Inspector General, who reviewed his medals in 2004. It is a tired subject and really doesn't matter now, but there is something deeply unsettling to me about questioning a man's Purple Hearts.

[soonerscuba]

Just my personal opinion

I think Iraqis are scared we will pull out and are very afraid of getting behind a lot of this out of fear of what may happen to them and their families if we do pull out

I agree, it must be hard on them, because no one likes being occupied, and all hell breaks loose if we leave, everybody is in a tough spot.

[Big Red Ron]

I agree, it must be hard on them, because no one likes being occupied, and all hell breaks loose if we leave, everybody is in a tough spot."Occupied" is a Democrat buzz word. This is how you get a poll to produce desired results, aka "push polling."

[SoonerProphet]

Not very long age Oklahoma's own Jeanne Kirkpatrick eviscerated President Carter and his administrations push to have democracy and human rights as the keystone behind foreign policy. It was a major factor behind the rise of the Islamic Republic in Iran. She then became a key member of President Reagan's fp team. It is to bad the other reformed marxists of the neoconservative movement didn't heed her words.

[Octavian]

there is something deeply unsettling to me about questioning a man's Purple Hearts.

Well, they sorta had to. When your opponent actually fought in the war, garnered 3 purple hearts......and you're forced to work w/ this:

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1999/bush22bb.th.png (http://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bush22bb.png)

It was time to start swift-boating.

and it worked

[usmc-sooner]

Well, they sorta had to. When your opponent actually fought in the war, garnered 3 purple hearts......and you're forced to work w/ this:

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1999/bush22bb.th.png (http://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bush22bb.png)

It was time to start swift-boating.

and it worked


so I guess your military service is only good if you went overseas and fought?

I told you someone would bring this up. What an idiotic statement. I guess everyone who serves in the military at that time was supposed to be in Vietnam along with all the reserve pilots. We should abandone all posts in the US and worldwide and send everyone to one spot. If this is how you think you shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion about anything war related.

[Big Red Ron]

Well, they sorta had to. When your opponent actually fought in the war, garnered 3 purple hearts......and you're forced to work w/ this:

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1999/bush22bb.th.png (http://http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1999/bush22bb.th.png)

It was time to start swift-boating.

and it workedHow did you feel when it was proven that Clinton not only didn't serve in any capacity but actually dodged the draft?

Democrats are so hypocritical on this topic it's nausiating.

Don't forget, Swift Boat Vets served with Kerry and watched him come home and testify before congress, bashing his fellow troops, not US policy but his comrads and threw his (actually someone elses) medals into the Potomic. What a goddamn *********. Now, he wants to brag about the very medals he "threw away."

[Octavian]

so I guess your military service is only good if you went overseas and fought?

I told you someone would bring this up. What an idiotic statement. I guess everyone who serves in the military at that time was supposed to be in Vietnam along with all the reserve pilots. We should abandone all posts in the US and worldwide and send everyone to one spot. If this is how you think you shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion about anything war related.

My point is that when you claim you're the pro-military party and the opposition is a hate-America-first crowd....then you're in an election where their guy is a decorated veteran and your guy is....well, not....It was time to start the noise machine.

It started w/ a whisper campaign: "I heard he gave those medals to himself...I heard his "wounds" were just little scrapes...You know he was really a communist sympathizer..."

Before you knew it, they were openly mocking his military service by sporting purple band-aids. It was an effective way to completely camouflage the fact that their entire group (not just one man) were chicken-hawks.

[SicEmBaylor]

There is a great deal of hypocrisy associated with attacking military service. Unless the record indicates truly dishonorable service then I don't think it should be an issue. Otherwise a candidate's military service should be respected and put into the context of his character and service to his country.

The hypocrisy is in this question, do liberals give a pass to those who dodged their duty by saying it was a different time and unjust war ala Clinton? Or do they go with criticizing anyone whose military service (which like Bush or not he did serve)wasn't spent in combat or even overseas?

On the one hand they take the position that dodging the draft doesn't matter, and on the other they criticize a guy who spent his service at home in the Air Guard. I'm really not sure how you can reconcile those two positions.

Here's another thought. The opposition to the Vietnam war came overwhelmingly from the left. The opposition view ranging from being an unjust and unncessary war to flat out favoring (and perhaps aiding) communism. Now, I'm not saying that every Democrat was opposed to these United States conducting the Vietnam war, far from it. But knowing that the left opposed the war to such a degree even disrespecting and shaming our troops how do they logically applaud the service by men they considered war criminals?

[usmc-sooner]

My point is that when you claim you're the pro-military party and the opposition is a hate-America-first crowd....then you're in an election where their guy is a decorated veteran and your guy is....well, not....It was time to start the noise machine.

It started w/ a whisper campaign: "I heard he gave those medals to himself...I heard his "wounds" were just little scrapes...You know he was really a communist sympathizer..."

Before you knew it, they were openly mocking his military service by sporting purple band-aids. It was an effective way to completely camouflage the fact that their entire group (not just one man) were chicken-hawks.

chicken hawks huh? I don't think I'd describe pilots as chicken hawks. Maybe someone on a message board but not pilots.

Look I've served in the USMC under Democrats and Republicans and it was much better under Republicans, that is why most military people support Bush, not because of who served where and who didn't. That is my personal experience and I'm sure you'd get similar responses to others on this board who served under President Clinton and President Bush.

[Octavian]

How did you feel when it was proven that Clinton not only didn't serve in any capacity but actually dodged the draft?

It didn't alarm me. Nor did W doing the same bother me. I dont think military service is a prerequisite for being President.

What did bother me is how, when faced w/ an oponent who did go to Vietnam, the GOP spin machine completely mocked his service at every turn, wile warning the opposition not to "denegrate the National Guard" and insisting they were the only "pro-military" party.

[Big Red Ron]

chicken-hawks. Didn't JFK get us into Vietnam? Didn't Clinton take us into Kosivo? What do we call them? I mean, if a man who learned to fly F-16's in the National Guard is a chicken hawk?

[Jerk]

I can find the link to torture videos that Saddam made.

Anyone want them?

It includes- people binded and tossed off of buildings while their children were present. People being thrown in wood chippers alive. People being thrown into acid baths alive. Can any liberal here watch these and still say "Iraq would be better off..."?

[Big Red Ron]

I can find the link to torture videos that Saddam made.

Anyone want them?

It includes- people binded and tossed off of buildings while their children were present. People being thrown in wood chippers alive. People being thrown into acid baths alive. Can any liberal here watch these and still say "Iraq would be better off..."?Clinton should have invaded Iraq after his administration discovered Sadom had attempted to assassinate former President Bush.

[Octavian]

chicken hawks huh? I don't think I'd describe pilots as chicken hawks.

ok, you're right.


Look I've served in the USMC under Democrats and Republicans and it was much better under Republicans, that is why most military people support Bush, not because of who served where and who didn't. That is my personal experience and I'm sure you'd get similar responses to others on this board who served under President Clinton and President Bush.

thank you for serving...not many do.

[Jerk]

And...

I really don't believe that liberals realize the situation we're in. Of course, they don't want large expendures on war. That takes away money from their scheme to sell handouts for votes.

Oh....we just need to reason with these mulsim fanatics, don't we? "If they just listen to us and realize that we're good and decent people and we mean them no harm"

and of course...

"Withdrawal all support from Israel and the problems will go away"

Yeah.

It's a long-term war between two cultures, to see who will dominate the other. Liberals have done such a good job at demonizing western civilization, no wonder they appear to fight for the rights of terrorists. *Ahem*..this war will last for decades, and if we do not have the nutsack, or the will, or the patience to stick with it, we will eventually lose.

[SoonerProphet]

Can any liberal here watch these and still say "Iraq would be better off..."?

Liberal or not, Jeanne Kirkpatrick could. Hell, you might even get some financial aid if those folks going into the wood chippers, being pushed off tall buildings, and accidentally falling from helicopters were wahhabist jihadis, kooky imams, or leftist geurillas.

[Jerk]

One last thing...

If we are not fighting the islamofascists in Iraq, then we will be fighting them somewhere else.

Or will they just go away once we pull out? Yeah...

[Octavian]

Didn't JFK get us into Vietnam? Didn't Clinton take us into Kosivo? What do we call them? I mean, if a man who learned to fly F-16's in the National Guard is a chicken hawk?

We were in Vietnam in the 50s.

Clinton did take is into Kosovo.

But neither Jack nor Bill based their foreign policies on pre-emptive liberations. (W wasn't going to either until 9/11, which opened the door for the views from the PNAC crowd.)

I didn't limit that characterization to W. He did more than most of the PNAC crew. All of those in the PNAC are conservative intellectuals that believe military intervention is more effective than classical diplomacy. None of the prominent PNACers that made it into the Administration served. Not one.

[Big Red Ron]

We were in Vietnam in the 50s.

JFK is responsible for the war in Vietnam, there isn't even a debate about that. He did do a nice job with the whole Bay of Pigs deal though. :rolleyes:

[Octavian]

JFK is responsible for the war in Vietnam, there isn't even a debate about that.

What have you been reading?

[Big Red Ron]

What have you been reading?Same to ya.

[Octavian]

:)

[Octavian]

ok, I'll bite:

How is Jack responsible for Vietnam when we had a thousand "advisors" there in the 1950s?

[soonerscuba]

Didn't JFK get us into Vietnam?

In fairness, JFK was far from a chicken-hawk, his service on PT boats in WWII is the stuff of legend.

[Big Red Ron]

White House records and transcripts show that the U.S. military leaders usually voted for the use of nuclear bombs in Vietnam, while Dwight Eisenhower and John Kennedy wanted not to get into those weapons. The Vietnam War did start in the 60's, but there had been trouble in Vietnam before that, I'll give you that.

The trouble started when the people of North Vietnam wanted to take over South Vietnam. The South Vietnamese people didn't want that, so they tried to fight back. Soon, the Americans pushed their way in the war. They thought that if South Vietnam didn't want to be part of North Vietnam, they shouldn't be bossed around. America began to fight for South Vietnam.

In 1961, President Kennedy sent a group of people to Vietnam to report the conditions. A report known as the "December 1961 White Paper" argued for more in military and economic aid. It also had an introduction of a large scale American "advisers" to help stabilize the Diem regime and pound the NFL (National Liberation Front.)

[Jerk]

In the 1950s it was the French doing the fighting in Vietnam. Everything I've ever heard and read says JFK sent the first advisors there.

This might say different, if anyone feels like reading it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

[SoonerProphet]

Ike was ready to help out when the French got it handed to them. Eisenhower sent a letter to President Diem promising American support and McNamara saw dominoes.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1954-eisenhower-vietnam1.html

[OklahomaTuba]

None of the prominent PNACers that made it into the Administration served. Not one.

Another great liberal lie. :rolleyes:

I wonder, do you know who founded the PNAC, besides Cheney?

[OklahomaTuba]

Carter was an ineffectual president.
And by ineffectual, you must mean complete and total failure.

Unless double digit unemployment and stagflation combined with the USSR marching across the globe unchecked and Iran nearly bringing us to our knees = not a failure.

Amazing compared to W with 5% unemployment and that we are actually are spreading freedom, not waving it goodbye as Jimmuh had us do.

[OklahomaTuba]

It is to bad the other reformed marxists of the neoconservative movement didn't heed her words.

Sounds like they did.


Along with Empower America co-directors William Bennett and Jack Kemp, she called on the Congress to issue a formal declaration of war against the "entire fundamentalist Islamic terrorist network" the day after the September 11th attacks on the World Trade Center.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeane_Kirkpatrick

[Octavian]

None of the prominent PNACers that made it into the Administration served. Not one.


Another great liberal lie. :rolleyes:

I wonder, do you know who founded the PNAC, besides Cheney?

I stand corrected.

Of the 25 founding members of the Project for the New American Century:

3 of them served in the military before ascending into prominent political positions where they vehemently advocated greater military intervention around the globe.

Of the three, exactly 1 of them served in the current administration.

Elliott Abrams -nope
Gary Bauer -nope
William J. Bennett -nope
Jeb Bush –nope
Dick Cheney –nope
Eliot A. Cohen -nope
Midge Decter -nope
Paula Dobriansky -nope
Steve Forbes -nope
Aaron Friedberg -nope
Francis Fukuyama -nope
Frank Gaffney -nope
Fred C. Ikle -nope
Donald Kagan -nope
Zalmay Khalilzad -nope
Lewis "Scooter" Libby -nope
Norman Podhoretz: US Army (1953-55)- Never served in the Bush Administration
Dan Quayle: Indiana National Guard (1969-1975)- Never served in the Bush Administration
Peter W. Rodman -nope
Stephen P. Rosen -nope
Henry S. Rowen -nope
Donald Rumsfeld: U.S. Navy (1954-57) -must admit, I didn't know Rummy was a charter member.
Vin Weber -nope
George Weigel -nope
Paul Wolfowitz -nope

1 out of 25.

[Octavian]

Surely I just set a record for the number of times someone has typed the annoying word "nope" in a single post.

:O

[LoyalFan]

Another gripe re Mr. Peanut:

The sorry bastidge kowtowed to a two-bit dictator, Omar Torrijos, and gave back the Panama Canal Zone. Guess who controls the Canal now (Hintoid: With two you get egg roll.)
Let us remember that Panama would still be a vassal state of Colombia were it not for Teddy Roosevelt. We assured their independence in return for a Lease In Perpetuity. We boosted their economy, and provided countless jobs with the Canal Co., on military and naval bases. We eliminated Yellow Fever, controlled other tropical diseases, upgraded their lives in general, and made certain they were never invaded by a jealous neighbor (See: Colombia.)
Gee, thanks, Jimmah...you a--hole!

LF
Fort Kobbe, Canal Zone Army Brat, Jan. '52-June '55

[Big Red Ron]

I stand corrected.

Of the 25 founding members of the Project for the New American Century:

3 of them served in the military before ascending into prominent political positions where they vehemently advocated greater military intervention around the globe.

Of the three, exactly 1 of them served in the current administration.

Elliott Abrams -nope
Gary Bauer -nope
William J. Bennett -nope
Jeb Bush –nope
Dick Cheney –nope
Eliot A. Cohen -nope
Midge Decter -nope
Paula Dobriansky -nope
Steve Forbes -nope
Aaron Friedberg -nope
Francis Fukuyama -nope
Frank Gaffney -nope
Fred C. Ikle -nope
Donald Kagan -nope
Zalmay Khalilzad -nope
Lewis "Scooter" Libby -nope
Norman Podhoretz: US Army (1953-55)- Never served in the Bush Administration
Dan Quayle: Indiana National Guard (1969-1975)- Never served in the Bush Administration
Peter W. Rodman -nope
Stephen P. Rosen -nope
Henry S. Rowen -nope
Donald Rumsfeld: U.S. Navy (1954-57) -must admit, I didn't know Rummy was a charter member.
Vin Weber -nope
George Weigel -nope
Paul Wolfowitz -nope

Ironic coming from someone who didn't serve. I don't understand how service is a prereq. for taking an objective look at the socio-economic and military landscape of the world and to make suggestions. The generals are consulted before military action is taken.

[FaninAma]

How frustrating it must be to be a liberal Democrat these days. Seething with rage, hatred and bitterness towards Bush and the Republicans they have to depend on an impotenet and incompetent Democratic party to push their agenda.

Damn, it would really get ugly for the Democrats if Bush wasn't an incompetent simpleton. Just imagine how bad the *** kickings from the GOP would be if Bush were a smart man.

The next really, really brilliant move from the Democrats/Libs: the nominaton of Hilliary Clinton as their Presidential candidate.

Pure comedic genius.:D

[Ike]

How frustrating it must be to be a liberal Democrat these days. Seething with rage, hatred and bitterness towards Bush and the Republicans they have to depend on an impotenet and incompetent Democratic party to push their agenda.

Damn, it would really get ugly for the Democrats if Bush wasn't an incompetent simpleton. Just imagine how bad the *** kickings from the GOP would be if Bush were a smart man.

The next really, really brilliant move from the Democrats/Libs: the nominaton of Hilliary Clinton as their Presidential candidate.

Pure comedic genius.:D

heh. you are close to right. but I think the liberal democrats are rather happy with their party. its the moderate democrats that really hate it.

and the *** whoopins from the GOP would actually be easier to take if Bush were a smart man.

[OklahomaTuba]

I stand corrected.

Of the 25 founding members of the Project for the New American Century:

3 of them served in the military before ascending into prominent political positions where they vehemently advocated greater military intervention around the globe.

Of the three, exactly 1 of them served in the current administration.

Elliott Abrams -nope
Gary Bauer -nope
William J. Bennett -nope
Jeb Bush –nope
Dick Cheney –nope
Eliot A. Cohen -nope
Midge Decter -nope
Paula Dobriansky -nope
Steve Forbes -nope
Aaron Friedberg -nope
Francis Fukuyama -nope
Frank Gaffney -nope
Fred C. Ikle -nope
Donald Kagan -nope
Zalmay Khalilzad -nope
Lewis "Scooter" Libby -nope
Norman Podhoretz: US Army (1953-55)- Never served in the Bush Administration
Dan Quayle: Indiana National Guard (1969-1975)- Never served in the Bush Administration
Peter W. Rodman -nope
Stephen P. Rosen -nope
Henry S. Rowen -nope
Donald Rumsfeld: U.S. Navy (1954-57) -must admit, I didn't know Rummy was a charter member.
Vin Weber -nope
George Weigel -nope
Paul Wolfowitz -nope

1 out of 25.

Where is Richard Armitage? He was a VERY prominant member, served in the navy and the assistant sec of state?

What about my man James Woolsey (a Tulsa guy BTW)?? He was Clinton's CIA director and a VERY important member of this group? One of the smartest men I have ever met?

Or how about Jeane Kirkpatrict??? She is also a member of this group.

[Octavian]

They weren't part of the 25 who originally drafted and co-signed the letter sent to President Clinton in 97. Or, if they were, some webpage assistant screwed up and left them off.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

They probably signed on later before Bush's first term or are considered neocons (though Armitage would later oppose them in the leadup to the Iraq campaign and opted out of returning for a second term) w/out being in PNAC.

In any event, Armitage and Woolsey beat the hell out of Wolfowitz, Fukuyama, or Dan Quayle.

[OklahomaTuba]

Woolsey was perhaps the biggest influencer in the Iraq Liberation Act that Clinton signed in 1998.

While Woolsey may not have signed that letter, that act alone was what the PNAC was after. (along with other groups as well including many prominant dimz like John F Kerry)

The fact that we were attacked and that Iraq had shown interest in helping AQ and had WMD (so everyone around the globe thought) only increased the urgency to dispose of Saddam, and I agree with them 100%.

[Rogue]

Jimmy Carter wasn't a great president, but as an ex-president, he is one hell of an impressive human being.

[mdklatt]

Bush is hated by many because he doesn't lead by doing what he thinks is popular. He is doing what he thinks is best and not trying to win a popularity contests.



A democratic government that ignores the will of its citizens is not always a good thing.

[Big Red Ron]

Jimmy Carter wasn't a great president, but as an ex-president, he is one hell of an impressive human being.You're kidding, right?

Dude ripped the sitting President for something that had nothing to do with Mrs. King at her FREAKING FUNERAL. He's a classless piece of schit.

I have zero respect for him as a peanut farmer, a beer maker and especially a president.

He needs to shut his moronic peacenik *** up!:mack:

[usmc-sooner]

A democratic government that ignores the will of its citizens is not always a good thing.

he's not ignoring anyone

he was elected to do the job let him do the damn job, this constant whining and bashing of our elected leader is old, tired, pathetic and lame.

Democrats are so ate up on politics and bashing that they do it at a damn funderal and instead of calling BS their fellow party members accept it.

Yes Republicans do it to as well. But I am so sick of the crap that gets put on tv.

Bush started the war --BS
Bush caused a Hurricane--BS
Bush hates black people--a double BS (Lord knows how good minorities have always had things under Democrats)
Bush this and that blah blah blah

I thought Americans had more sense than to think 1 man could be to blame for everything. But that's the Democratic way of thinking, 1 man is at fault and we aint got no solutions but listen to us whine and cry.

[Octavian]

I have zero respect for him as a...beer maker...

Woa. There's a certain line you just don't cross.

Back. Off. :texan:

[Big Red Ron]

Woa. There's a certain line you just don't cross.

Back. Off. :texan:Did you ever try billy beer? Bleh...

[Rogue]

No, I am not kidding.

The man was awarded the 2002 Nobel Prize for Peace. His work through the Carter Center and Habitat for Humanity are positive examples of his continuing role as a public servant. He is an author, woodworker, sunday school teacher, and a good lecturer (see his Nobel lecture for an example).

I agree with many that the funeral was not the time or place for that type of rhetoric, but Jimmy Carter really is a man I admire. I don't love his writing and find his books a bit dry, but his committment to working for those of lower social standing and with little political power and influence impress me.

As a president, he was perhaps not as likely to use force when necessary and GWB is the polar opposite, more likely to consider force as a first option.

USMC, Bush DID start the war in Iraq. That is why he called it pre-emption.

[OklahomaTuba]

I don't love his writing and find his books a bit dry, but his committment to working for those of lower social standing and with little political power and influence impress me.

As a president, he was perhaps not as likely to use force when necessary and GWB is the polar opposite, more likely to consider force as a first option.
That fits, since his economic plan put millions out of work and into the lower social standing, while sticking his head in the sand while the USSR marched unanswered around the globe and third rate terrorists nearly brought the country to its knees.

But hey, at least we did boycott the olympics! :rolleyes:

[Big Red Ron]

USMC, Bush DID start the war in Iraq. That is why he called it pre-emption.This is Democratic rhetoric. We had invaded Iraq in 1991. We left Baghdad alone and left Saddam there under certain conditions, like probation. Clinton and the UN let him abuse the oil for food program and didn't do crap about Iraqi henchmen who attempted an assassination of former President Bush.

Look up the word preemption and you wont find anything about previous wars with a conditional withdrawal.

The only people who call this thing pre-emptive are Democratic spin doctors, who have apperently gotten to you.

Nothing personal.

[OklahomaTuba]

This is Democratic rhetoric. We had invaded Iraq in 1991. We left Baghdad alone and left Saddam there under certain conditions, like probation. Clinton and the UN let him abuse the oil for food program and didn't do crap about Iraqi henchmen who attempted an assassination of former President Bush.

Look up the word preemption and you wont find anything about previous wars with a conditional withdrawal.

The only people who call this thing pre-emptive are Democratic spin doctors, who have apperently gotten to you.

Nothing personal.

It was Clinton who signed the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998.

That set the stage, 9/11 just hurried it along.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Po Jimmuh has done qualified hisself as Banana Slug