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royalfan5
2/10/2006, 03:47 PM
I was just curious as to how many of y'all regularly put an ethanol blend in your vehicle? Up here in the corn belt, ethanol is generally 10 cents a gallon cheaper, and I use it because ethanol pays some of the bills for me as well as being cheaper. Nebraska will crack the billion gallon barrier in ethanol production in the very near future, and it will be interesting to see how long the industry will go before a shakeout.

GottaHavePride
2/10/2006, 03:50 PM
I don't think there's anywhere in Norman that even sells ethanol. and if they did, I don't know if my car would burn it - it requires premium.

Mjcpr
2/10/2006, 03:51 PM
I don't think there's anywhere in Norman that even sells ethanol. and if they did, I don't know if my car would burn it - it requires premium.

Don't bring him doooown, Bruce.

royalfan5
2/10/2006, 03:54 PM
I don't think there's anywhere in Norman that even sells ethanol. and if they did, I don't know if my car would burn it - it requires premium.
almost all cars can burn the standard 10% blend without problem. The exceptions are older cars w/carburators and diesels. I was curious about the overall availablity of ethanol in Oklahoma.

IronSooner
2/10/2006, 03:55 PM
I noticed a lot of places in Iowa were selling it last summer. Haven't noticed it in Illinois yet, surprisingly. Didn't see any in Oklahoma either when I was back there in December.

Any idea what the total energy situation is on that? I've heard it requires more energy to produce than it saves. Seems like a great situation if the energy/economics of it work out.

TopDaugIn2000
2/10/2006, 03:55 PM
haven't noticed it here (OK)

but I don't pay that much attention sometimes.

1stTimeCaller
2/10/2006, 03:56 PM
I thought this was going to be a tastes great , less filling debate.


I know you can get ethanol in Blanchard or at least you used to be able to but it was about the same price.

royalfan5
2/10/2006, 03:59 PM
I noticed a lot of places in Iowa were selling it last summer. Haven't noticed it in Illinois yet, surprisingly. Didn't see any in Oklahoma either when I was back there in December.

Any idea what the total energy situation is on that? I've heard it requires more energy to produce than it saves. Seems like a great situation if the energy/economics of it work out.
The oil industry wants you to believe that. Their lapdog study has lots of holes in it. Right now, especially with the big new Cargill/ADM type plants coming on-line there is a net energy benifit due to gain in scale and what not. Also the leftovers make excellent cattle feed and work for other livestock as well. The switchgrass developments show potential but the marketing/handling infrastructure is there yet. Sugar also has great potential, Brazil has used sugar ethanol to get them to energy self-sufficnecy.

Flagstaffsooner
2/10/2006, 04:02 PM
I use and make methane.

mdklatt
2/10/2006, 04:15 PM
Up here in the corn belt, ethanol is generally 10 cents a gallon cheaper

But your mileage is lower because it has less energy content, right?

royalfan5
2/10/2006, 04:17 PM
But your mileage is lower because it has less energy content, right?
My MPG barely suffers on a 10% blend. I still hit 30hwy with my car. If you were running a flex-fuel vehicle your mileage would be off about 10%.

NormanPride
2/10/2006, 04:20 PM
Just a few questions: What's the exhaust like? Energy content vs. petrol? Byproducts of production? Long term effects on the average engine? How about vapors, storage?

I'm not trying to pester, I just want to know. :)

Mjcpr
2/10/2006, 04:21 PM
Just a few questions: What's the exhaust like? Energy content vs. petrol? Byproducts of production? Long term effects on the average engine? How about vapors, storage?

I'm not trying to pester, I just want to know. :)

When he really guns it, it leaves a pile of popcorn.

Ike
2/10/2006, 04:23 PM
I haven't seen a drop of ethanol fuel around Chicago. As 'spensive as gas prices are now, I imagine that any station that sold it would have lines as soon as it went on sale and lasting till it ran out, if it was significantly cheaper.

mdklatt
2/10/2006, 04:27 PM
My MPG barely suffers on a 10% blend. I still hit 30hwy with my car. If you were running a flex-fuel vehicle your mileage would be off about 10%.

A 4-5% cost savings doesn't offset a 10% mileage hit, but at least we don't have to buy corn from Saudi Arabia.

IronSooner
2/10/2006, 04:27 PM
We need to raid Iowa Ike.

Ike
2/10/2006, 04:28 PM
I noticed a lot of places in Iowa were selling it last summer. Haven't noticed it in Illinois yet, surprisingly. Didn't see any in Oklahoma either when I was back there in December.

Any idea what the total energy situation is on that? I've heard it requires more energy to produce than it saves. Seems like a great situation if the energy/economics of it work out.

You are down in springfield no? <edit> sorry, urbana-champagne? one of those places 'down south'? I figured that it would be more likely to be seen down there than up here, as there are plenty of corn fields out that way.


as for the energy production, there are 2 conflicting studies regarding it. the first says exacty what you have heard. Recently, it has come under fire for being woefully incomplete, as well as having questions rasied about its sourcing (apparently the funding for the study came completely from the oil industry...which in and of itself does not mean much, but I've heard that there were many other concerns regarding it). The second says the opposite, but is fairly recent meaning that nobody has likely had time to independently verify or dismiss.

so, in reality for the common man, the jury is still out.

Ike
2/10/2006, 04:29 PM
We need to raid Iowa Ike.
amen to that. on the way back we can raid wisconsin too. I'm outta cheese.

royalfan5
2/10/2006, 04:32 PM
A 4-5% cost savings doesn't offset a 10% mileage hit, but at least we don't have to buy corn from Saudi Arabia.
In Nebraska flex fuel is usually about 25-30 cheaper than gas which offsets the mileage hit. Most ethanol is sold in 90/10 blend which doesn't have the mileage hit. It is also cleaner.

royalfan5
2/10/2006, 04:35 PM
Just a few questions: What's the exhaust like? Energy content vs. petrol? Byproducts of production? Long term effects on the average engine? How about vapors, storage?

I'm not trying to pester, I just want to know. :)
With a 90/10 blend their haven't been any problems with engines. As for storage, it's grain alcohol, it stores the same as a bottle of everclear. With proper safegards it can be transported in stored quite safely. As for by-products there is co2 which can be caputured and sold, as well as distillers grains which is a great livestock feed.

Ike
2/10/2006, 04:39 PM
hmmm, so doing a quick search on e85 in Illinois, according to the website of Barack Obama, there are 62 gas stations that offer e85 in IL. there was some article on his site lauding Citgo for putting one in 'Metropolis', wherever the **** that is. apparently, they are putting them as far from people as possible.


ok, so I finally found a listing of all e85 gas stations in IL. apparently there are some around here....just so out of the way that I'd prolly never go:

# Station Address City State Status Map
1. Albion Knapp Mart 4th and Elm Albion IL Open Map
2. Effingham Equity 905 S Main St Altamont IL Open Map
3. Argonne National Laboratory Argonne IL Open Map
4. Marathon 815 W Rand Rd Arlington Heights IL Open Map
5. Thornton Oil Corp. 2800 Ogden Ave Aurora IL Open Map
6. Phillips 2136 Airport Rd Bartonville IL Open Map
7. Fermi National Laboratory Batavia IL Open Map
8. Scott Air Force Base Belleville IL Open Map
9. FS Farmtown 808 Morrissey Dr Bloomington IL Open Map
10. PSM Shell, Inc 2401 E Oakland Ave Bloomington IL Open Map
11. Qik n EZ 1607 Morrissey Dr Bloomington IL Open Map
12. Central City Knapp Mart 100 N Broadway Centralia IL Open Map
13. Gas City 4070 N Clark St Chicago IL Coming Soon Map
14. Gas City Ltd. 4070 N Clark St Chicago IL Open Map
15. Kean Oil Co. 111th & Talman Chicago IL Open Map
16. Chrisman Fuel 24 15725 Us Highway 36 Chrisman IL Open Map
17. Cisne Knapp Mart RR 45 Cisne IL Open Map
18. Clay City Knapp Mart U.S. Route 50 & Main Street Clay City IL Open Map
19. Mach 1 Food Shop 510 N Gilbert St Danville IL Open Map
20. Pacific Pride 3117 N 22nd St Decatur IL Open Map
21. Hintzsche Oil 880 Peace Road Dekalb IL Open Map
22. Speedway 885 E Touhy Ave Des Plaines IL Open Map
23. Becker?s Hotrod BP I-55 and Highway 47 Dwight IL Open Map
24. Martins IGA - Midtown Fuels 503 W Jefferson Ave Effingham IL Open Map
25. ROC One Stop 1100 N. U.S. Highway 45 Eldorado IL Open Map
26. Larkin Marathon 1126 Larkin Ave Elgin IL Open Map
27. Clark Station 2401 Dempster St Evanston IL Open Map
28. Fairfield Gas for Less 603 S 1st St Fairfield IL Open Map
29. Gas City 22310 S LA Grange Rd Frankfort IL Open Map
30. Gas City 22310 S LA Grange Rd Frankfort IL Coming Soon Map
31. Gas City 11151 W Lincoln Hwy Frankfort IL Open Map
32. Gas City 19730 S Harlem Ave Frankfort IL Open Map
33. Gas City 855 Center Rd Frankfort IL Coming Soon Map
34. Gas City 11151 W Lincoln Hwy Frankfort IL Coming Soon Map
35. Gas City 19730 S Harlem Ave Frankfort IL Coming Soon Map
36. Crestwood Oil Inc. 1641 S Sleezer Home Rd Freeport IL Open Map
37. ROC One Stop 200 E Main St Galatia IL Open Map
38. The Hometown Express 365 Us Highway 6 E Geneseo IL Open Map
39. Suzy Q Fast Stop 202 Highway 94 Golden IL Open Map
40. NAVFAC MID-WEST 2415 Saulding Great Lakes IL Open Map
41. Logan Agri-Svc RR 107 Griggsville IL Open Map
42. ROC One Stop 409 N Commercial St Harrisburg IL Open Map
43. Southern FS 5 W Robinson St Harrisburg IL Open Map
44. Gas City 12502 W 143rd St Homer Glen IL Open Map
45. Gas City 12502 W 143rd St Homer Glen IL Coming Soon Map
46. Gas City 15060 S Bell Rd Homer Glen IL Coming Soon Map
47. Gas City 15551 W 143rd St Homer Glen IL Coming Soon Map
48. Fanco 101 Comfort Drive Jacksonville IL Open Map
49. Gas City 17100 W Laraway Rd Joliet IL Open Map
50. Gas City 17100 W Laraway Rd Joliet IL Coming Soon Map
51. Gas City 2925 Riverstone Parkway Kankakee IL Coming Soon Map
52. Lena Cenex At Noller's Food Pride 201 Dodds Dr Lena IL Open Map
53. Qik n EZ 520 Keokuk St Lincoln IL Open Map
54. Wolff Oil, Inc. 1511 N Old Route 66 Litchfield IL Open Map
55. Road Ranger #237 909 E Roosevelt Rd Lombard IL Open Map
56. Grand Prix #11 7997 Forest Hills Rd Loves Park IL Open Map
57. Road Ranger - Citgo 8096 Forest Hills Rd Loves Park IL Open Map
58. Mahomet Beyond Petroleum 204 N Lombard St Mahomet IL Open Map
59. Gas City 9051 North Route 45/52 Manteno IL Open Map
60. Gas City 9051 North Route 45/52 Manteno IL Coming Soon Map
61. Marion Gas for Less 714 W Main St Marion IL Open Map
62. Jiffy Mini-Mart 1804 N Illinois Highway 1 Marshall IL Open Map
63. Fuel 24 1016 W. Chestnut Mason City IL Open Map
64. ROC One Stop 100 E Randolph St Mcleansboro IL Open Map
65. Darr's Highway 111 Medora IL Open Map
66. Metropolis Knapp Mart 1117 E 5th St Metropolis IL Open Map
67. Gas City 18701 Wolf Rd Mokena IL Open Map
68. Gas City 19855 LA Grange Rd Mokena IL Open Map
69. Gas City 18701 Wolf Rd Mokena IL Coming Soon Map
70. Gas City 19855 LA Grange Rd Mokena IL Coming Soon Map
71. Gas City 25515 S LA Grange Rd Monee IL Coming Soon Map
72. Gas City 25515 S LA Grange Rd Monee IL Open Map
73. FS Fast Stop 615 E Lincolnway Morrison IL Open Map
74. Razzle's Convenience Store 1801 S 10th St Mount Vernon IL Open Map
75. Formula Automotive Inc. Marathon 310 W Northwest Hwy Mt. Prospect IL Open Map
76. Gas City 3004 Reflection Dr Naperville IL Coming Soon Map
77. Nashville Knapp Mart 17970 Mockingbird Rd Nashville IL Open Map
78. Gas City 939 S Cedar Rd New Lenox IL Open Map
79. Gas City 939 S Cedar Rd New Lenox IL Coming Soon Map
80. Qik-n-EZ 1510 E Vernon Ave Normal IL Open Map
81. Qik-n-EZ 1609 N Main St Normal IL Open Map
82. Gas City 4032 Us Highway 34 Oswego IL Coming Soon Map
83. Gas City Limited 4032 U.S. Hwy 34 Oswego IL Open Map
84. Palatine Oil Company Marathon 515 W Colfax St Palatine IL Open Map
85. Gas City 13059 S LA Grange Rd Palos Park IL Open Map
86. Gas City 13059 S LA Grange Rd Palos Park IL Coming Soon Map
87. Qik-n-EZ 301 S Poplar St Pana IL Open Map
88. Independent/Sapp Bros. 3130 May Rd Peru IL Open Map
89. Meier Oil Service, Inc. 126 N Division St Pontiac IL Open Map
90. Country Side Marathon 13615 Rt 76 Poplar Grove IL Open Map
91. Princeton Fast Stop 720 N Main St Princeton IL Open Map
92. Jiffi Stop #16 -- Citgo 1401 N 24th St Quincy IL Open Map
93. Phillips 66 4545 Sandy Hollow Rd Rockford IL Open Map
94. Road Ranger - Citgo 4106 Harrison Ave Rockford IL Open Map
95. Gas City 1300 W Normantown Rd Romeoville IL Open Map
96. Gas City 1300 W Normantown Rd Romeoville IL Coming Soon Map
97. FS, Fuel 24 764 90th St Roseville IL Open Map
98. Suzy Q Fast Stop 320 N Congress St Rushville IL Open Map
99. Salem Knapp Mart 500 S Broadway Ave Salem IL Open Map
100. Qik n EZ 615 N Cedar St Shelbyville IL Open Map
101. Gateway Fast Stop 617 S Saint Louis St Sparta IL Open Map
102. Qik-n-EZ 2800 N Peoria Rd Springfield IL Open Map
103. Qik-n-EZ 1995 W Monroe St Springfield IL Open Map
104. Qik-n-EZ 1230 Toronto Rd Springfield IL Open Map
105. Qik-n-EZ 430 N Grand Ave E Springfield IL Open Map
106. Qik-n-EZ Convenience Store 1101 Stevenson Dr Springfield IL Open Map
107. Stewardson Knapp Mart Route 32 & Main Street Stewardson IL Open Map
108. Christian County FS 1200 N Cheney St Taylorville IL Open Map
109. FS Fast Stop 1800 Hillsboro Rd Vandalia IL Open Map
110. Veach Truck Stop Juntion Illinois Rt. 37 & 146 Vienna IL Open Map
111. Charley's Marathon Service 149 West St. Charles Road Villa Park IL Open Map
112. Cenex Xtramile 352 N Morgan St Virginia IL Open Map
113. Gateway Fast Stop 511 Park St Waterloo IL Open Map
114. West Frankfort Gas for Less 511 W Main St West Frankfort IL Open Map
115. FS, Fast Stop 218 Illinois Route 180 Williamsfield IL Open Map
116. Gas City 8424 Willow Springs Rd Willow Springs IL Open Map
117. Gas City 8424 Willow Springs Rd Willow Springs IL Coming Soon Map

royalfan5
2/10/2006, 04:44 PM
hmmm, so doing a quick search on e85 in Illinois, according to the website of Barack Obama, there are 62 gas stations that offer e85 in IL. there was some article on his site lauding Citgo for putting one in 'Metropolis', wherever the **** that is. apparently, they are putting them as far from people as possible.
The only vehicles that are set up for flex fuel are by and large trucks right now, so most of the flex-fuel stations in Nebraska are closer to rural areas(Yes, I realize that describes the whole state for the most part), where there are more trucks and a greater incentive to run on flex fuel. Most passenger cars and suvs can't handle flex fuel without modifications.

Ike
2/10/2006, 04:46 PM
The only vehicles that are set up for flex fuel are by and large trucks right now, so most of the flex-fuel stations in Nebraska are closer to rural areas(Yes, I realize that describes the whole state for the most part), where there are more trucks and a greater incentive to run on flex fuel. Most passenger cars and suvs can't handle flex fuel without modifications.

ok, so whats the difference between these flex fuels and alternative ethanol based fuels that can be run without modification?

just curious, cause I don't know nuthin about this.

1stTimeCaller
2/10/2006, 04:48 PM
Metropolis is SW Illinois. Not too far from Cape Girardeau, MO ;)

Ike
2/10/2006, 04:51 PM
Metropolis is SW Illinois. Not too far from Cape Girardeau, MO ;)


in other words, out in BFE.

NormanPride
2/10/2006, 04:57 PM
Nobody's ever told me what BFE stands for. It sounds funny, though. So I laugh.

royalfan5
2/10/2006, 04:58 PM
ok, so whats the difference between these flex fuels and alternative ethanol based fuels that can be run without modification?

just curious, cause I don't know nuthin about this.
right now flex fuel means 15%gas/85%ethanol. Only certained vehicles can run on this blend.
Otherwise you have a 90%gas/10%ethanol blend. This is what is being used to phase out the MTBE additive in mid-grade fuels in most states. This can run in any car, and helps clean your fuel injectors.
The only thing running on pure ethanol right now is IRL cars and modified irrigation motors.

Biodiesel will work in any diesel motor w/out modification, although you have to be careful because it looses fuel line deposits at first. However, the economics aren't there yet, which is why bio-diesel isn't really commerically viable except for a 2%blend of bio-diesel into regular diesel right now. At that blend is more expensive than regular diesel.

1stTimeCaller
2/10/2006, 04:59 PM
in other words, out in BFE.

just a little farther out but in the general direction :D. It's on the Miss. river

Ike
2/10/2006, 05:03 PM
Nobody's ever told me what BFE stands for. It sounds funny, though. So I laugh.

Bum **** Egypt.

GottaHavePride
2/10/2006, 05:36 PM
I know in Wichita, they used o have Coastal gas stations that sold an ethanol blen - about 10 cents a gallon cheaper than normal gas at the time. They went bust, though - none of them left, as far as I know.

OklahomaTuba
2/10/2006, 10:21 PM
The oil industry wants you to believe that. Their lapdog study has lots of holes in it. Right now, especially with the big new Cargill/ADM type plants coming on-line there is a net energy benifit due to gain in scale and what not. Also the leftovers make excellent cattle feed and work for other livestock as well. The switchgrass developments show potential but the marketing/handling infrastructure is there yet. Sugar also has great potential, Brazil has used sugar ethanol to get them to energy self-sufficnecy.

Heh.

The oil industry doesn't give 2 ****s about ETH. Its not a threat to them and they actually invest money in this at a higher rate than some petrochems and syngases.

I work with this industry a lot. Most plants do have a negative energy benefit and are heavly subsidized right now.

But you are right, Volume will overcome this as Cargill/ADM/Verasun are building some big *** plants.

OklahomaTuba
2/10/2006, 10:24 PM
With a 90/10 blend their haven't been any problems with engines. As for storage, it's grain alcohol, it stores the same as a bottle of everclear. With proper safegards it can be transported in stored quite safely. As for by-products there is co2 which can be caputured and sold, as well as distillers grains which is a great livestock feed.

It actually creates the best cow feed on the market.

I had a chance to visit the largest wetmill in the country last year. The entire process is amazing.

royalfan5
2/10/2006, 10:37 PM
It actually creates the best cow feed on the market.

I had a chance to visit the largest wetmill in the country last year. The entire process is amazing.
It's okay for cows, it's outstanding for finishing cattle. There's a difference. Drymills will dominate the industry though because of the lower capital requirments. Only A-D-M and Cargill really have reason to screw around with wetmills. Cargill will push dry mills because they like to operate in joint ventures, because it eliminates risk for them. People shouldn't get too excited about switchgrass in the near future though because even if the techonology gets there, the marketing and processing infrastructure will take time to develop for turning switchgrass into a commodity.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/10/2006, 10:45 PM
When Iran cuts off the Straits of Hormuz, and Venezuela sends all theirs to China, we will be talking about domestic OIL PRODUCTION, among other related issues.

OklahomaTuba
2/10/2006, 10:47 PM
It's okay for cows, it's outstanding for finishing cattle. There's a difference.
Ahh, maybe that is it then. I am not up to speed on the cattlefeed types.

royalfan5
2/10/2006, 10:47 PM
When Iran cuts off the Straits of Hormuz, and Venezuela sends all theirs to China, we will be talking about domestic OIL PRODUCTION, among other related issues.
Venezuala can send their to China all they want, it will just shift around existing oil production and selling. That won't cripple the U.S. too much. It's a global market, the US will still find it's oil if Venezuala only sells to China. If they take the oil off the market compeletly it will be a different story.

OklahomaTuba
2/10/2006, 10:51 PM
When Iran cuts off the Straits of Hormuz, and Venezuela sends all theirs to China, we will be talking about domestic OIL PRODUCTION, among other related issues.

I agree, sorta.

Venezuela isn't the big problem, its Iran.

ETH is fine and all and I support it, but if Iran removed its crude and gas production from the market(as they have said they would if we de-nuke them), we couldn't afford to make ETH, much less expect it to make up the shortfall.

We should be drilling and building refineries NOW. That idiot in Tehran is crazy enough to do that IMO.

royalfan5
2/10/2006, 10:55 PM
I agree.

ETH is fine and all and I support it, but if even Iran removed its crude and gas production from the market, we couldn't afford to make ETH, much less expect it to make up the shortfall.

We should be drilling and building refineries NOW.
Exactly, however there are too many commies in this country that hate business, and too many people preoccupied with stupid social concerns to actually do something about it.

royalfan5
2/10/2006, 10:57 PM
Ahh, maybe that is it then. I am not up to speed on the cattlefeed types.
Cows have calves, and don't require as much feed in the way of corn and what not because you aren't fattening cows. There for you only would use distillers grains as a small part of the ratio in order to maintain them. Cattle on feed, steers mostly need the energy from the distillers grains to fatten.

OklahomaTuba
2/10/2006, 11:02 PM
Heh.

Its great that the byproduct can be used for this.

I hear they are trying to use the manure from the cows to fire the equipment in the plants as well!

HoserSooner
2/10/2006, 11:47 PM
They are building an Ethanol plant here in town, where the old Molson Brewery/marijuana grow-op was located. Don't know when it is, but in a couple of years, all of our gas has to contain minimum 5% ethanol, and they are going to increase the percentage as they go.

They'll still screw us on the tax though.

royalfan5
2/11/2006, 02:00 AM
Heh.

Its great that the byproduct can be used for this.

I hear they are trying to use the manure from the cows to fire the equipment in the plants as well!
A closed citcuit plant by Mead Nebraska using that will go into operation next year.

Jimminy Crimson
2/11/2006, 03:47 AM
is this that E85 chit?

there are a number of places in OKC that sell that

OUTromBoNado
2/11/2006, 04:22 AM
I just saw a commercial about GM flex-fuel vehicles during the replay of the Torino opening ceremonies.

Okla-homey
2/11/2006, 10:05 AM
Bum **** Egypt.


BTW, BFE is located up on on Sh*t Creek.

royalfan5
2/11/2006, 11:27 AM
is this that E85 chit?

there are a number of places in OKC that sell that
I was refering to the 90/10 blend when I started the thread. E85 requires a that you have a compatible vehicle, 90/10 does not. Pretty much every station in Nebraska offers 90/10, and in Minnesota 90/10 is mandated by law.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/11/2006, 12:57 PM
Exactly, however there are too many commies in this country that hate business, and too many people preoccupied with stupid social concerns to actually do something about it.:mad: I'm thinking some sort of petroleum embargo by just about any of the Middle East oil producers might be enough of a catalyst to wake up the US congress, since gas price will have gone into the stratosphere.