Pat Roberston blames Sartre for Europe's problems

[royalfan5]

http://mediamatters.org/items/200602070002

Some how I don't think an existentialist would be bothered by Robertson's condemnations. Seriously though, can't Pat get a hobby, like knitting, or maybe he could get a kitten to play with or something.

[crawfish]

Pat needs to shut up.

[OklahomaTuba]

Agreed.

SHUT UP!

[Okla-homey]

Actually, I think the guy does make an important point. I have traveled extensively all over Europe, and have spent relatively lengthy periods in several locations and really had an opportunity to get to know the folks.

Here's the dealio. The typical European is waaaaaay more beholden to his government to take care of him and ensure he's happy and healthy than we are. Put another way, when we blow it, we say "dang-it, I really scruwed that up big time!" OTOH, when one of them blows it, the typical response is, "its government's fault."

In a situation where government is supposed to take care of you from womb to tomb, it just tends to sap any self-determination, or, as Robertson says, "hope" right out of a fellow. IOW, "Its hopeless! Until the gov't sorts out the problem, I'll just sit here on my front stoop, drink and be miserable" as opposed to the way we handle it (at least the responsible among us)" "Hey, I need to make some changes, acquire some job skillz, or whatever, in order to improve my lot in life."

Look, I know we shouldn't generalize, and there are certainly lots of Europeans who are willing and able to accept personal responsibility for being a "dumbarse" while letting opportunities to improve their life pass by and blaming the gov't -- Lord knows we have those folks too, but in Europe, they are the majority. That's why the "nanny state" is inherently counter-productive and detrimental to each person achieving their full potential IMHO.

Just a dumb Okie's perspective.

[royalfan5]

Actually, I think the guy does make an important point. I have traveled extensively all over Europe, and have spent relatively lengthy periods in several locations and really had an opportunity to get to know the folks.

Here's the dealio. The typical European is waaaaaay more beholden to his government to take care of him and ensure he's happy and healthy than we are. Put another way, when we blow it, we say "dang-it, I really scruwed that up big time!" OTOH, when one of them blows it, the typical response is, "its government's fault."

In a situation where government is supposed to take care of you from womb to tomb, it just tends to sap any self-determination, or, as Robertson says, "hope" right out of a fellow. IOW, "Its hopeless! Until the gov't sorts out the problem, I'll just sit here on my front stoop, drink and be miserable" as opposed to the way we handle it (at least the responsible among us)" "Hey, I need to make some changes, acquire some job skillz, or whatever, in order to improve my lot in life."

Look, I know we shouldn't generalize, and there are certainly lots of Europeans who are willing and able to accept personal responsibility for being a "dumbarse" while letting opportunities to improve their life pass by and blaming the gov't -- Lord knows we have those folks too, but in Europe, they are the majority. That's why the "nanny state" is inherently counter-productive and detrimental to each person achieving their full potential IMHO.

Just a dumb Okie's perspective.
I wouldn't call that racial suicide like Pat does though. Plus using a long dead philosopher is a pretty ridicolous strawman. I agree with the nanny state part though.

[SoonerProphet]

i am suffering from nausea

[Octavian]

Im sure the GOP leadership would like him to STFU during this midterm year

He's the right's Michael Moore

[OklahomaTuba]

Im sure the GOP leadership would like him to STFU during this midterm year

He's the right's Michael Moore, Howard Dean, Cindy Sheehan, Jimmy Carter, John Kerry, Dick Durbin, Ted Kennedy, Sean Penn, George Soros, Cynthia McKinney, Al Gore, Ward Churchill, Danny Glover, Harry Belefonte...

Fixed it for you. :D

[handcrafted]

However inartfully stated it was, I must say that Pat has a point. He may have singled out one philosopher, but the fact that the European *mindset* and *worldview* tends toward existentialism does in fact have a negative effect on how they live their lives. And it is a result of several hundred years of "enlightened philosophy", coupled with the liberalization/evisceration of the church and the concomitant rise of the welfare state, that created their current environment.

So, as far as Pat's concerned, if one were to be snide, one could say that even a broken clock is right twice a day. :D

But yes, generally, he needs to quiet down.

[Octavian]

yeah, thats what it is :rolleyes:

[royalfan5]

However inartfully stated it was, I must say that Pat has a point. He may have singled out one philosopher, but the fact that the European *mindset* and *worldview* tends toward existentialism does in fact have a negative effect on how they live their lives. And it is a result of several hundred years of "enlightened philosophy", coupled with the liberalization/evisceration of the church and the concomitant rise of the welfare state, that created their current environment.

So, as far as Pat's concerned, if one were to be snide, one could say that even a broken clock is right twice a day. :D

But yes, generally, he needs to quiet down.
What about the the Kierkegaard school of Christian Existentialism? I wouldn't say all existentialism is bad.

[handcrafted]

yeah, thats what it is :rolleyes:

Awright, smart guy, then give us *your* perspective.

[handcrafted]

What about the the Kierkegaard school of Christian Existentialism? I wouldn't say all existentialism is bad.

Don't subscribe to it, see lots of problems with it. Better than Nietzsche/Sartre, yeah. But I think the attitude of the European population in general bears out more the latter.

[OKC Sooner]

Isn't it against OSHA regs to use a Kierke without a Kierkegaard in place?

[Octavian]

The Enlightenment rescued this species from the millenium long dark ages...modern science, philosophy, democracy, the computer screen Im looking at...all stemmed from the Enlightenment.

The decentralization of parochial power and rise of secularism are good things. Gross abuses of institutionalized religion-ran states drove Western civilization into the mud and kept it there for a thousand years.

To me, the scary side of the current modern conservative movement isn't the hyper capitalist wing (for in a macro-economic sense, they are correct. Its a brutal process that leaves a whole lot of losers...but in a macro sense they're correct). Its the wing that is both pre-Enlightenment and anti-Enlightenment in its views, which seems to be closer to that in certain extreme parts of the middle east. Seriously, some people scare me w/ this...

The welfare state is a completely different topic.

One of Europe's main problems, IMO, is that dont have the balls (or the guns) to fight for their Enlightenment

[TUSooner]

As much as I usually shudder and groan or get red in the face when Pat spouts off, I think he has a point in this case. In general terms, having kids is an act of optimism, or faith or hope. People who have a worldview of the gloomier sort of existentialism don't have much optimism; they're just trying to muddle through until they die.

[TUSooner]

Isn't it against OSHA regs to use a Kierke without a Kierkegaard in place?
That's really pitiful. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Spek!:D

[SoonerProphet]

wait, don't some breeds of existentialists purport to be a reaction to the very rationalist and "enlightened" philosophies that sprung up during the age of reason.

[King Crimson]

wait, don't some breeds of existentialists purport to be a reaction to the very rationalist and "enlightened" philosophies that sprung up during the age of reason.

yes, as a response to the "rationalized" and systematic forms of slaughter and genocide made manifest in WW II. some strains (of which one would include the younger Sartre) made an attempt to recover forms of meaning and individual freedom on Human terms. many of these attempts--for example Beckett and Ionesco, to a lesser degree Brecht or Kafka--were expressed in "absurd" and theatrical art forms to make explicit a critique of "everyday life" and automation....the latter seen as a kind of silent imprisonment of human freedom and possibility.

the later Sartre was quite active in war crimes and human rights tribunals--he also renounced many of his previous positions.

Robertsons argument is beyond stupid. Historically, if Europeans have a more central model of the state it's hardly because they are a bunch hand-wringing liberal pansies.....that's today's "political discourse" talking. Europeans also have a much stronger model of civil society than we do--which is a failsafe to safeguard the intrusion of a potentially coercive state into the life of the individual (the definition of totalitarianism).

[GottaHavePride]

wait, don't some breeds of existentialists purport to be a reaction to the very rationalist and "enlightened" philosophies that sprung up during the age of reason.

Are they gonna kill us, Walter?

No, Donny, these men are Nihilists. They're cowards.

;)

[handcrafted]

Any system of government can be abused. What a nation must do is find the one that will create the best overall society, and just go with it. Any argument from "this or that government or economic system oppresses this or that class" is missing the point, and ultimately not helpful.

The discussion needs to be centered around the potential of the system if operated properly, and then safeguards put in place to ensure as much proper operation as possible.

In the USA we've done that. History has shown (so far) that ours is the best of all possible worlds when it comes to political/economic policies. We now know that Marxist/Leninist ideas aren't the answer. We also know that Nazism/Fascism is not. Those systems were both based on existentialist/nihilist thought.

And, we all agree that the church-run state in Europe was a dismal failure and caused problems that continue to plague Western culture (not to mention the damage it did to the Church itself). And who wants to live in an asian or Middle-Eastern theocracy? Not me. The Church and the State should work together, but civil and ecclesiastical authority should not be mixed.

So, what do you have? American republic-style democracy and free market. Limited government. This is not what Europe has. Europe has parliamentary-style governments which are oriented to varying degrees toward "Western" socialism, i.e., non-totalitarian, but big centralized governments which control major aspects of the economy, tax the crap out of their citizens, over-regulate businesses, all the while creating a climate of "the government owes me a living", where anytime anything bad happens, it's "why doesn't the government fix this?" And because the government can't fix everything (not even close), the general population, armed with this attitude, becomes fatalistic and negative.

Whereas, people here in the USA generally maintain a good work ethic and sense of morality. There are exceptions, but the exceptions get all the press. The real picture is quite different.

[SoonerProphet]

We now know that Marxist/Leninist ideas aren't the answer. We also know that Nazism/Fascism is not. Those systems were both based on existentialist/nihilist thought.

I'll disagree. It is Hegel and his dialectic that are at fault in these cases.