Will these people please just disappear

[85Sooner]

I would say what I where I want them to go but I want to be above all that.

That was neither the time or place for those shenanigans.


Former (worst president in US history) Carter and the reverend (small r) bash the President at Kings funeral.
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash8.htm

[chriscappel]

That ****es me off!!

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

What do you expect from them? You didn't really think behaviour like that was beneath them, did you? Billy Carter would be ashamed of the inexcusable things brother Jimmy has done since booted from office, no?

[chriscappel]

Well its one thing to bash on the prez....it is a right we in the military defend... but to do it AT A FUNERAL is ignorant and appaling!

[SoonerInKCMO]

I agree with you that the reverand's comments were out of line. However...


Former President Jimmy Carter later swung at Bush as well, not once but twice. As he talked about the Kings, he said: "It was difficult for them then personally with the civil liberties of both husband and wife violated as they became the target of secret government wiretaps."

How is this a shot at Bush? MLK died more than 30 years before Bush became president. The spying on MLK was on LBJ's watch (and whomever was head of the FBI and CIA at the time).

Also, while others have blamed Bush for many of the problems in N.O., I don't read into Carter's comments that he shares those feelings. I read Carter's latest book (Our Endangered Values) a couple of months ago and I don't remember getting the impression that he blamed Bush for the aftermath of Katrina. Obviously, he's not a fan of Bush; but I don't think he holds the man personally responsible for the response to the flooding.

[oumartin]

what do you expect.. ?

[chriscappel]

what do you expect.. ?

A little respect for the deceased....

[85Sooner]

I agree with you that the reverand's comments were out of line. However...



How is this a shot at Bush? MLK died more than 30 years before Bush became president. The spying on MLK was on LBJ's watch (and whomever was head of the FBI and CIA at the time).

Also, while others have blamed Bush for many of the problems in N.O., I don't read into Carter's comments that he shares those feelings. I read Carter's latest book (Our Endangered Values) a couple of months ago and I don't remember getting the impression that he blamed Bush for the aftermath of Katrina. Obviously, he's not a fan of Bush; but I don't think he holds the man personally responsible for the response to the flooding.

He just put out a press release stating his opinion that the wiretaping was illegal yesterday, so it was interesting his choice of "struggles" they went through that he would pick that one.

[SoonerInKCMO]

He just put out a press release stating his opinion that the wiretaping was illegal yesterday, so it was interesting his choice of "struggles" they went through that he would pick that one.

Well, it's actually a fact that the wiretapping is illegal ... but that's neither here nor there. The timing of the press release does make his choice of comments more questionable though.

[OklahomaTuba]

These people are a disgrace.

And Carter has no room to talk bashing another President. That guy should stick to building houses.

[VeeJay]

Exactly. Of all the significant things contributed to the CR movement by Mrs. King, Jimmeh feels the need to conveniently bring up "wiretap" when the president is under fire for this.

Carter is still mad at the world for getting trounced in 1980.

He has no shame and not one iota of class or statemanship. He could take a clue from his boy Bill Clinton in that arena.

This was not the proper venue for these sour pusses to hold a political rally. Fuggers.

[OklahomaTuba]

Well, it's actually a fact that the wiretapping is illegal ....Ugh, no it is NOT a fact. :rolleyes:

[SoonerInKCMO]

The program allows wiretapping without showing a court any evidence that the person being spied on is a suspected terrorist. That violates the Foreign Intelligence Survelliance Act.

[OklahomaTuba]

The program allows wiretapping without showing a court any evidence that the person being spied on is a suspected terrorist. That violates the Foreign Intelligence Survelliance Act.Under normal circumstances, yes it would.

But we are at war. The congress gave the president these powers, just like they do everytime we are at war.

Thus your fact is incorrect.

From the AG

The terrorist surveillance program is firmly grounded in the President’s constitutional authorities. *** It has long been recognized that the President’s constitutional powers include the authority to conduct warrantless surveillance aimed at detecting and preventing armed attacks on the United States. Presidents have uniformly relied on their inherent power to gather foreign intelligence for reasons both diplomatic and military, and the federal courts have consistently upheld this longstanding practice.

If this is the case in ordinary times, it is even more so in the present circumstances of our armed conflict with al Qaeda and its allies.

If a democrat can round up and throw US citizens of a certain race in camps, then listening to AQ is the least of our concerns.

[85Sooner]

Under normal circumstances, yes it would.

But we are at war. The congress gave the president these powers, just like they do everytime we are at war.

Thus your fact is incorrect.


Correct

[OklahomaTuba]

Correct
I thought this was interesting from AG as well.


[A]s long as electronic communications have existed, the United States has conducted surveillance of those communications during wartime—all without judicial warrant.

In the Civil War, for example, telegraph wiretapping was common, and provided important intelligence for both sides.

In World War I, President Wilson ordered the interception of all cable communications between the United States and Europe; he inferred the authority to do so from the Constitution and from a general congressional authorization to use military force that did not mention anything about such surveillance.

So too in World War II; the day after the attack on Pearl Harbor, President Roosevelt authorized the interception of all communications traffic into and out of the United States.

The terrorist surveillance program, of course, is far more focused, since it involves only the interception of international communications that are linked to al Qaeda or its allies.

[85Sooner]

Remember the posters "loose lips sink ships". Those referred to phone conversations as well as personal conversations and letters.

[SoonerInKCMO]

All of the AG's examples are from before the time (1978) that FISA was enacted - not relevant to the current conversation.

FISA places strict limits on what types of survelliance is permissible without a court order. The current program goes beyond those bounds.

Part of FISA -
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001802----000-.html

[jk the sooner fan]

i love it when those with no law degree or experience think they know more than the Attorney General of the United States....

[OklahomaTuba]

All of the AG's examples are from before the time (1978) that FISA was enacted - not relevant to the current conversation.

FISA places strict limits on what types of survelliance is permissible without a court order. The current program goes beyond those bounds.

Part of FISA -
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001802----000-.html

Yet again, under NORMAL circumstances I would agree.

However, we are at war.

When congress gives a sitting President war powers, that tends to change a few things.

Obviously someone is wishing we could go back to the days when AQ could call their agents and cells within the US, and the government had no ability to
to listen.

That worked well until this happened:

http://host.activeworlds.com/megapath/textures/9-11-trade3.jpg

[handcrafted]

Tuba is absolutely correct (and so is the AG, I might add). Yes I'm a lawyer and yes I know what I'm talking about. Simple concept, really. Presidential powers which derive from the Constitution trump any law that Congress may have passed. No branch of government can make policy, pass legislation or unilaterally decide (viz. the Supremes) to take any Constitutionally mandated power away from another branch.

The argument is that, even though FISA doesn't allow for warrantless spying on US Citizens, during a time of war, all bets are off and the President's war powers override the U.S. Code. Whether that will fly, or not, will be interesting to see. This will inevitably end up before the Supremes.

[OklahomaTuba]

Tuba is absolutely correct (and so is the AG, I might add). Yes I'm a lawyer and yes I know what I'm talking about. Simple concept, really. Presidential powers which derive from the Constitution trump any law that Congress may have passed. No branch of government can make policy, pass legislation or unilaterally decide (viz. the Supremes) to take any Constitutionally mandated power away from another branch.

The argument is that, even though FISA doesn't allow for warrantless spying on US Citizens, during a time of war, all bets are off and the President's war powers override the U.S. Code. Whether that will fly, or not, will be interesting to see. This will inevitably end up before the Supremes.
Even if i am right nor not, the issue is this should be done. There is no reason on earth this SHOULD NOT be done.

If people can be searched without a judge approving it at the friggin airport for no reason, then this shouldn't be a problem IMO.

[poon4heisman2006]

I wonder if the wire taps have hurt the phone sex business?

[SoonerBorn68]

I thought former presidents have a unspoken agreement not to speak ill of one another? :confused:

[KABOOKIE]

Looks like someone's mad they can't make plans to kill Americans over the phone anymore. Boo fricking hoo.

[Octavian]

I'll participate in this threadjack...

The biggest problem here is that Bush seems to give the impression that, "Its the law now b/c I say it is."

[Octavian]

I wonder if the wire taps have hurt the phone sex business?

This is what really worries me the most :D

[SoonerProphet]

cool, perpetual war and the ever present boogeymen sounds like great times. what a boon this new fangled conservatism is for government power.

[poon4heisman2006]

Scared they are listening to your calls to?

[SoonerInKCMO]

i love it when those with no law degree or experience think they know more than the Attorney General of the United States....

Right. Like I'm the only person that disagrees with the AG. There aren't any lawyers, senators, professors of law, former presidents, etc. that agree with my interpretation.

[SoonerBorn68]

I'll participate in this threadjack...

The biggest problem here is that Bush seems to give the impression that, "Its the law now b/c I say it is."

Sour grapes from the other side. I remember the '90's.

[SoonerInKCMO]

Besides, what the AG knows most of all is that his boy W put him in that job and will damn sure see that his *** is out of a job if he doesn't go along with W's plans.

[Octavian]

Scared they are listening to your calls to?

its about the rule of law...thats what these hearings will attempt to determine

the mid-30s European stance of "I dont have anything to hide so I dont care what government does..." is pretty sad

[SoonerInKCMO]

That worked well until this happened:

http://host.activeworlds.com/megapath/textures/9-11-trade3.jpg

We had intelligence that would have prevented that from happening if only the government would've acted on it - intelligence that was gathered without illegal wiretaps. The FBI, CIA and the administrations of both Clinton and Bush dropped the ball on that though.

[Octavian]

Sour grapes from the other side. I remember the '90's.

yeah, just b/c lying about getting head is cause enough for getting impeached doesnt mean this warrants any criticism

[poon4heisman2006]

its about the rule of law...thats what these hearings will attempt to determine

the mid-30s European stance of "I dont have anything to hide so I dont care what government does..." is pretty sad

My post was in reference to the phone sex conversation but I'll play along.

If a million wire taps stop one terrorist from blowing up and killing innocent people, then I say job well done.


But then again, I'm for torturing the hell out of people to get information so..... ;)

[Octavian]

My post was in reference to the phone sex conversation but I'll play along.

If a million wire taps stop one terrorist from blowing up and killing innocent people, then I say job well done.


But then again, I'm for torturing the hell out of people to get information so..... ;)

ahh...gotcha.

funerals, phone sex, wiretaps, torture...this thread could make a pretty good movie :mack:

[SoonerBorn68]

yeah, just b/c lying about getting head is cause enough for getting impeached doesnt mean this warrants any criticism

Critisism, by all means, it's the United States you know. At a funeral? That's just low.

By all means, let them keep doing it. The "touchy, feely" liberal diatribe is wearing thin on the nation. You can thank Teddy boy for slam dunking Alito into the Supreme court. Nothing smell better than charred liberal.

[Rhino]

Ah, the picture posting argument. A Tuba classic.

[Octavian]

*Dwight*

best.

avatar.

evar.

[soonerscuba]

By all means, let them keep doing it. The "touchy, feely" liberal diatribe is wearing thin on the nation. You can thank Teddy boy for slam dunking Alito into the Supreme court. Nothing smell better than charred liberal.

Is that why you are going to lose the House this fall? Or that the President is sitting on 40% and being worked by Senate minority? Or had 14 Senators mediate his picks for the Courts? Or the plummeting popularity of a war that fewer and fewer want to fight? Or the guise of perpetual war that will inevitably come back to bite you in the *** when it is a Democrat and they do something that you don't like to your 2nd Amendment right and you cry ever so loudly at the government monstrosity that the Bush administration built, custom made for a Democrat with a hard-on for super huge budgets? Honestly, people who honestly think that Republicans stand for smaller government need to be hit with a hammer. Plus, I could only dream that Americans actually care enough about government to know what Kennedy said to Alito, I would wager no more than a fifth of the country could even begin to tell you who Samuel Alito is.

On a side note, authorizing the President to have war powers in the guise of terrorism is a massive mistake. We are never going to win it, and deep down everybody knows it. It isn't because we lack resolve, or force, or leadership, it is because you can't win a war on an abstraction. Replace "terror" with another emotion such as "sadness" and listen to how ridiculous you sound. Also don't forget that the Congress holds the purse strings, so if it really bothers them, they will simply starve it. The President does not have unlimited power during a time of war, and especially not a war against an abstraction.

[Octavian]

pwn3d.

[SoonerBorn68]

Well, I'm glad you set me straight. I had no idea I you knew me so well.

I'll replace "terror" with "tyrrany" and it sounds 'bout the same to me.

I'm glad you weren't around when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

If Congress "starves" this war, you can rest assured that the US will be nuked, gassed, or infected in masse. If not all.

Conservatives have hot buttons like guns, but libs have theirs too, they sugar coat it and call it "choice".

You might have a different opinion, but quite frankly it scares me.

[SoonerBorn68]

pwn3d.

Please...

[SoonerBorn68]

Back to the original preface of this post. Don't you think it's low what Jimmah did? How would you like it if someone did that at Grandma's funeral?

[Octavian]

Please...

well, at least in my "choice" opinion ;)

[SoonerBorn68]

You thinkin' of answering my question...

[soonerscuba]

I'll replace "terror" with "tyrrany" and it sounds 'bout the same to me.

I'm glad you weren't around when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

If Congress "starves" this war, you can rest assured that the US will be nuked, gassed, or infected in masse. If not all.

Conservatives have hot buttons like guns, but libs have theirs too, they sugar coat it and call it "choice".

You might have a different opinion, but quite frankly it scares me.

Do you really not see the irony of allowing a carte blanche to the executive under the guise of fighting tyranny?

I like to think I would have fought in WWII and I also like to think I would have been a vocal opponent of Japanese internment camps here in the US.

I would hope and pray that the there is more standing in the way of total destruction than President Bush, if not we are a failure of a country.

I stay away from abortion on the board, nothing good comes of it.

[soonerscuba]

Back to the original preface of this post. Don't you think it's low what Jimmah did? How would you like it if someone did that at Grandma's funeral?

I didn't like it, it was a funeral not the DNC (although the Dems were too dickless to attack the President at the last DNC).

[mdklatt]

If a million wire taps stop one terrorist from blowing up and killing innocent people, then I say job well done.


What makes you think the government is going to stop at wiretaps?

[achiro]

On topic, it is horrible that ANYONE would use a funeral to promote a political agenda.

Off topic, It is unbelievable to me that anyone would care about wire tapping. I'm not old enough to remember but it wasn't so long ago that all phone lines were shared with your neighbors anyway. What so damned secretive? I don't give a damn if they listen into every conversation I have on the phone. I would imagine me asking my wife what's for dinner would get old and they would move on anyway.
It is a ridiculous argument that is so far out there with most "normal" Americans. Most of us just don't have secrets that are that big of a deal.

[usmc-sooner]

if you're worried about wiretapping quit calling your terrorist buddies in the mid east. Quit associating yourselves with people who would like to bring down our country.

I'm I worried not one bit, you wanna listen to a phone conversation between me and my folks-pretty uneventful. You want to know that I've looked at porn on the internet, that's fine I could care less. I mean WTF is the big deal. The government knows more about me than any of you.

At what point are the Democrats and Liberals going to offer a solution other than the constant bitching whining and protesting they do about President Bush. No one man is ever responsible for every problem that this country faces but some of you want to Blame Bush for silly **** that only you can control.

I mean please tell me why someone who is making frequent calls to the mid-east in this day and time shouldn't be monitored.

I'm so glad the congress I pay with not only my taxes but my blood sweat and tears spends its time trying to bring down what the people have elected.

It's a freakin joke we honestly pay these people to just obstruct whatever is going on. You're side my side at some point it needs to be our side.

[soonerscuba]

Most of us just don't have secrets that are that big of a deal.

That hobos family in Juarez that I had a run in with during the time I was a coke mule would disagree.

[SoonerBorn68]

Do you really not see the irony of allowing a carte blanche to the executive under the guise of fighting tyranny?


So, Lincoln was wrong?

[mdklatt]

Off topic, It is unbelievable to me that anyone would care about wire tapping.

It's not about wiretapping, it's about the current administration stripping away civil liberties one by one, and then claiming it has the absolute authority to do so because "we're at war". Guess what? We're always going to be at war against terrorism, so we might as well shelve the Constitution.

Why stop at wiretapping? Aren't you a doctor or a dentist? What if the FBI decided it needed you to turn over all your patients' records? Would that be okay? Surely people wouldn't mind if the government knew they had erectile dysfuntion as long as it gave them an imperceptible extra degree of safety.

We have the power to implant tracking chips into people, so why not tag everybody entering the country? A lot of terrorist are already here, so we better tag all non-citizens. Of course, Timothy McVeigh was a born and bred American so we'd better tag everybody. And as long was we're tracking people in the interest of national security we might as well use that information for other purposes. We could keep track of ex-cons once they're out of jail. If we're going to track people it's not a big deal to track inanimate objects, like cars. Imagine how much money the highway patrol could save if it could identify speeders via satellite.

The Soviet Union was pretty successful at keeping terrorism in check within its borders. We could learn a lot from them.


You can trust me, I'm with the government.

[usmc-sooner]

It's not about wiretapping, it's about the current administration stripping away civil liberties one by one, and then claiming it has the absolute authority to do so because "we're at war". Guess what? We're always going to be at war against terrorism, so we might as well shelve the Constitution.

Why stop at wiretapping? Aren't you a doctor or a dentist? What if the FBI decided it needed you to turn over all your patients' records? Would that be okay? Surely people wouldn't mind if the government knew they had erectile dysfuntion as long as it gave them an imperceptible extra degree of safety.

We have the power to implant tracking chips into people, so why not tag everybody entering the country? A lot of terrorist are already here, so we better tag all non-citizens. Of course, Timothy McVeigh was a born and bred American so we'd better tag everybody. And as long was we're tracking people in the interest of national security we might as well use that information for other purposes. We could keep track of ex-cons once they're out of jail. If we're going to track people it's not a big deal to track inanimate objects, like cars. Imagine how much money the highway patrol could save if it could identify speeders via satellite.

The Soviet Union was pretty successful at keeping terrorism in check within its borders. We could learn a lot from them.


You can trust me, I'm with the government.

yeah but think of all the days off you get working for the gov'mnt

[Octavian]

We have the power to implant tracking chips into people, so why not tag everybody entering the country? A lot of terrorist are already here, so we better tag all non-citizens. Of course, Timothy McVeigh was a born and bred American so we'd better tag everybody. And as long was we're tracking people in the interest of national security we might as well use that information for other purposes. We could keep track of ex-cons once they're out of jail. If we're going to track people it's not a big deal to track inanimate objects, like cars. Imagine how much money the highway patrol could save if it could identify speeders via satellite.

Its like reading a FoxNews script

[mdklatt]

yeah but think of all the days off you get working for the gov'mnt

<yakov smirnov>In Soviet Union, government works for you!</yakov smirnov>

[SoonerBorn68]

Back to the original preface of this post. Don't you think it's low what Jimmah did? How would you like it if someone did that at Grandma's funeral?

I think Octavian purposefully skipped over my post.

[usmc-sooner]

Its like reading a FoxNews script

with a liberal slant

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

I thought this was a GDC thread ;)

[SoonerBorn68]

Its like reading a FoxNews script

Oh goody. I see the talking points are in full swing tonight.

[Octavian]

I think Octavian purposefully skipped over my post.

I thought you were talking to scuba...

Yes, a funeral is an incredibly poor choice to make political points from either side.

But...

1. It was Martin Luther King's wife. There were several Presidents and a google of other politicians...political conversation shouldnt surprise anyone

2. IMO Mrs. King would've agreed w/ most things said from one side

3. A few of the people in attendance <ahem> probably wouldnt have attended an event for Mrs. King had she been, say, the main speaker

[poon4heisman2006]

What makes you think the government is going to stop at wiretaps?


What more information do they need than what they already have? They know my SSN, my bank account numbers from direct deposit, and I haven't been wearing my tin-foil hat lately.

[OklahomaTuba]

We are never going to win it, and deep down everybody knows it. It isn't because we lack resolve, or force, or leadership, it is because you can't win a war on an abstraction. Replace "terror" with another emotion such as "sadness" and listen to how ridiculous you sound.

:rolleyes:

This is like a bad re-run of the 80s.

Suddenly terrorism, like communism the libz told us, wasn't something people did, it was a"feeling".

What total Bull****.

Oh, and telling people we are going to lose a war that we are winning is pretty ****ing stupid.

[SoonerBorn68]

You ruined it when you added the "but".

There is no excuse for it, but I'm sure the grandchildren will understand.

[OklahomaTuba]

I thought you were talking to scuba...

Yes, a funeral is an incredibly poor choice to make political points from either side.

But...

1. It was Martin Luther King's wife. There were several Presidents and a google of other politicians...political conversation shouldnt surprise anyone

2. IMO Mrs. King would've agreed w/ most things said from one side

3. A few of the people in attendance <ahem> probably wouldnt have attended an event for Mrs. King had she been, say, the main speakerGlad to see a liberal actually trying to justify this disgrace.

I am surprised Cindy Sheehan wasn't invited to tell us how worthless this country is. Probably would have fit just nicely.

[Octavian]

:rolleyes:

This is like a bad re-run of the 80s.

Suddenly terrorism, like communism the libz told us, wasn't something people did, it was a"feeling".

What total Bull****.

Oh, and telling people we are going to lose a war that we are winning is pretty ****ing stupid.

Think he was saying that declaring war against a tactic, or action, is misguided b/c an action doesn't have to be backed by a common idea. Anyone can blow up anything or "terrorize" us

The administration realized this too late and recently tried to change the tag-line to "struggle against Islamo fascism" a couple months ago but gave it up. The War on Terror was too firmly entrenched.

[mdklatt]

What more information do they need than what they already have?

Apparently they also need to know everything you Googled for in the past 90 days.

The government had plenty of information to predict 9/11. The government had plenty of information to stop a number of the 9/11 hijackers from purchasing plane tickets, or even entering the country in the first place. All this was obviously before the Patriot Act and questionable wiretapping. The system broke down. Fix the system before you consider giving it even more power.

[Octavian]

You ruined it when you added the "but".

There is no excuse for it, but I'm sure the grandchildren will understand.

I havent heard any of the family members decry any of the speakers, right or left. Again, this was Martin Luther King's wife. He was sorta political.

[OklahomaTuba]

It's a freakin joke we honestly pay these people to just obstruct whatever is going on. You're side my side at some point it needs to be our side.


SPEK.

Amazing to think we have people actually against fighting the people we are at war with and keeping the country safe.

Such is the case in Liberal FantasyLand I guess. Where there is no war, where everyone is peace loving and its only the US Government led by the evil Bushhitler and his NeoKKKons thirst for oil and enriching his buddies in "big oil" so they can brew hurricanes to kill black people that are causeing all the problems in this world.

[Octavian]

Glad to see a liberal actually trying to justify this disgrace.

heh. funny how you pick and choose when political speech is disgraceful. I was in London during President Reagan's funeral ceremonies and it was a full week of congressional leaders preaching the importance of lasseiz-faire economics and "peace through strength" foreign policy approaches.

[mdklatt]

Suddenly terrorism, like communism the libz told us, wasn't something people did, it was a"feeling".


Terrorism is an ideology. You can't wage war against an ideology. We can defeat terrorists, but terrorism will always be with us.

[OklahomaTuba]

Think he was saying that declaring war against a tactic, or action, is misguided b/c an action doesn't have to be backed by a common idea. Anyone can blow up anything or "terrorize" us

The administration realized this too late and recently tried to change the tag-line to "struggle against Islamo fascism" a couple months ago but gave it up. The War on Terror was too firmly entrenched.

Tactic, action, its all bull****.

Terror is supported first and foremost. Ya gotta go after the people supporting it.

unfortunatly, this is all wrapped up in the life blood of our economy and way of life, oil.

Seems to me that no attacks and 50+million people with a chance at democracy is a good start.

But you libz are invested in defeat now. Thats the only way you can succeed. To see the country fail. Pretty damn sad.

[SoonerBorn68]

I havent heard any of the family members decry any of the speakers, right or left. Again, this was Martin Luther King's wife. He was sorta political.

Meaning? MLK was class. I don't think he would have approved. BTW what ever happened to the separation of church and state?

[poon4heisman2006]

nm.

Oooops.

[OklahomaTuba]

heh. funny how you pick and choose when political speech is disgraceful. I was in London during President Reagan's funeral ceremonies and it was a full week of congressional leaders preaching the importance of lasseiz-faire economics and "peace through strength" foreign policy approaches.

Interesting. I don't recall any pubs out there bashing people at the funeral.

Must have missed that part.

[Octavian]

BTW what ever happened to the separation of church and state?

A conservative upset about church and state being too closely intertwined...

Twilight Zone...

[Octavian]

But you libz are invested in defeat now. Thats the only way you can succeed. To see the country fail. Pretty damn sad.

Yeah, thats right. Me and my hate-America-first crowd :rolleyes:

You are not more patriotic just because you are a Republican

[OklahomaTuba]

Terrorism is an ideology. You can't wage war against an ideology. We can defeat terrorists, but terrorism will always be with us.

Wow.

First Terrorism was a feeling.

Then a tactic, or an action.

Now its an "ideology".

I wish people would make up their mind. Trying to explain how its going to defeat us it getting kinda confusing with all the new definitions.

[SoonerBorn68]

A conservative upset about church and state being too closely intertwined...

Twilight Zone...

Apparently you didn't catch the sarcasm. I should have :rolleyes:

[soonerscuba]

I'm just saying we'll win the war on terror like we will win the war on drugs. Get ****ed, jump up and down, hold your breath, and I'll still be right.

[OklahomaTuba]

Yeah, thats right. Me and my hate-America-first crowd :rolleyes:

You are not more patriotic just because you are a Republican

No, I admit, I am not.

I just don't see anyone from my side telling people we are going to lose, we need to "cut n run", the troops are nazis, bush is a nazi, the country isn't worth fighting for, we shouldn't be spying on terrorists, interrogting them, we should be searching people, its all a lie, bush knew about 9/11, the troops are terrorists, etc..

All this comes from YOUR side.

Oh, but lets not question the lefts patriotism, what ever we do! :rolleyes:

[Octavian]

Apparently you didn't catch the sarcasm. I should have :rolleyes:

sorry...Im a product of a public high school ;)

[soonerscuba]

Approaching things honestly is a good policy, tying up defense from terrorism in the flag and xenophobia is a slippery slope to things I don't want to deal with from the executive branch of the government, regardless of who is in power.

[SoonerBorn68]

Patriotism? More like pacifism.

[soonerscuba]

All this comes from YOUR side.

Can you even count the amount of times you bring up WWII a day on the board?

TIA.

[SoonerBorn68]

Every war we've fought has been tied up in the executive branch.

[SoonerBorn68]

Can you even count the amount of times you bring up WWII a day on the board?

TIA.

It's a nice benchmark...and high water mark. Maybe it's because those people (your and my grandparents) understood.

[OklahomaTuba]

Can you even count the amount of times you bring up WWII a day on the board?

TIA.

I didn't even mention WW2. :confused:

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

Osamma Bin Laden Sucks...can we all agree!!! That is the first step to gettting along ;)

[Octavian]

Patriotism? More like pacifism.

Im no pacifist....Im from Oklahoma.

It wasn't too patriotic when, at the Rep Nat Conv. a bunch of chicken-hawk supporters wore purple band-aids mocking their opponent who served in Vietnam. Swift-boating Max Cleland, among others, wasn't patriotic.

Jack Murtha must be a wussified pacificist too...

[SoonerBorn68]

Oh, except Vietnam.

[OklahomaTuba]

Approaching things honestly is a good policy, tying up defense from terrorism in the flag and xenophobia is a slippery slope to things I don't want to deal with from the executive branch of the government, regardless of who is in power.

Ahh, there we go with the xenophobia thing again.

Of course this has NEVER EVER been the case in anywar we have fought as a nation.

Its all a brand new thing. And W is to blame!

[mdklatt]

Wow.

First Terrorism was a feeling.


You're the one that called it a "feeling".



Then a tactic, or an action.

Now its an "ideology".



Tactic is probably a better term than ideology. Whatever you call it, it's abstract. You can't destroy something abstract. Declaring war on terrorism makes about about logical sense as declaring war on geometry. You can never defeat the Pythagorean Theorem, only contain it.

[OklahomaTuba]

Im no pacifist....Im from Oklahoma.

It wasn't too patriotic when, at the Rep Nat Conv. a bunch of chicken-hawk supporters wore purple band-aids mocking their opponent who served in Vietnam. Swift-boating Max Cleland, among others, wasn't patriotic.

Jack Murtha must be a wussified pacificist too...

Of course this is so much worse than, say, blocking schools from military recruiters during a war.

Another great way the left supports the troops and this country!

[SoonerBorn68]

Im no pacifist....Im from Oklahoma.

It wasn't too patriotic when, at the Rep Nat Conv. a bunch of chicken-hawk supporters wore purple band-aids mocking their opponent who served in Vietnam. Swift-boating Max Cleland, among others, wasn't patriotic.

Jack Murtha must be a wussified pacificist too...

I forgot. Say, didn't he write up those purple hearts for himself? And, boy, what a great job for the vets he did after he got back home. :)

[OklahomaTuba]

You're the one that called it a "feeling".
No, cuba called it a feeling. Keep up dammit.

[Octavian]

I forgot. Say, didn't he write up those purple hearts for himself? And, boy, what a great job for the vets he did after he got back home. :)

are you Shephard or Britt? ;)

[OklahomaTuba]

I forgot. Say, didn't he write up those purple hearts for himself? And, boy, what a great job for the vets he did after he got back home. :)

Ghengis Kahn Baby!

[soonerscuba]

It's a nice benchmark...and high water mark. Maybe it's because those people (your and my grandparents) understood.

They understood that German Army and Japanese Army were a little bit easier to qualify than "terrorist evil-doer".

[OklahomaTuba]

You're the one that called it a "feeling".



Tactic is probably a better term than ideology. Whatever you call it, it's abstract. You can't destroy something abstract. Declaring war on terrorism makes about about logical sense as declaring war on geometry. You can never defeat the Pythagorean Theorem, only contain it.

Ahh, of course.

Well, might as well bend over and let our terrorist overlords anal rape us then since we have no chance.

Since we can't beat em, might as well bite the pillow and go for a ride on the chocolate waterslide huh?

Damn, I sure did like them skysrapers.

[OklahomaTuba]

They understood that German Army and Japanese Army were a little bit easier to qualify than "terrorist evil-doer".

Heh.

I just noticed something, your talking about WW2 more than I am.

Irony.

[SoonerBorn68]

*sigh* This is pointless. The enemy today is just like those of yesteryear. Cut off the supply & they'll be throwing rocks at us. Take their means of making war and they wither. Terrorist "evil doers" are sposored. Take out the sponsorship...They are nation states.

[SoonerBorn68]

Heh.

I just noticed something, your talking about WW2 more than I am.

Irony.

Sorry, he probably meant me. I'm all hopped up listening to OTR's of GI Journal & Mail Call mp3's from the 1940's.

[OklahomaTuba]

*sigh* This is pointless. The enemy today is just like those of yesteryear. Cut off the supply & they'll be throwing rocks at us. Take their means of making war and they wither. Terrorist "evil doers" are sposored. Take out the sponsorship...They are nation states.
Oh there you go again with that neocon thinking again.

How dare you try to think logically. Everyone knows that all Arab Extreamist just hijack planes and strap bombs to themselves. Its just a (insert definition of terror here) they have. Its WHAT THEY DO and cannot be defeated! WHY WON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THIS!!@!@#!@#@#

[Octavian]

Terrorist "evil doers" are sposored. Take out the sponsorship...They are nation states.

but this time dont lie and act like "freedom spreading" is the point of it all...just bomb the ****ers Kissinger style

[OklahomaTuba]

but this time dont lie and act like "freedom spreading" is the point of it all...just bomb the ****ers Kissinger style

Yeah, that will work.

Maybe if we are lucky we can **** off the Kingdom as well.

Heh, I can't wait to see what oil at 100/barrel would do to my job/home/family.

[SoonerBorn68]

but this time dont lie and act like "freedom spreading" is the point of it all...just bomb the ****ers Kissinger style

Agreed. The clock is ticking in Iran. It won't be long.

[SoonerBorn68]

Yeah, that will work.

Maybe if we are lucky we can **** off the Kingdom as well.

Heh, I can't wait to see what oil at 100/barrel would do to my job/home/family.

Oilfield. I might get a raise. :D

[Octavian]

Yeah, that will work.

Maybe if we are lucky we can **** off the Kingdom as well.

Heh, I can't wait to see what oil at 100/barrel would do to my job/home/family.

That wont be a problem. W just told us he has the plan to cure our "addiction"

[OklahomaTuba]

Oilfield. I might get a raise. :D

I might as well.

Well, except I might no be able to drive to work if we have gas lines after another oil shock. (and that was just the IRANIAN oil!)

But hey, lets **** off the saudis anyways.

[Octavian]

It won't be long.

I dont think so either

[OklahomaTuba]

That wont be a problem. W just told us he has the plan to cure our "addiction"

Well, he has to do something since the libz won't let us drill for our own damn oil, or build more refineries.

[SoonerBorn68]

I'm bailin'. I'll probably get called out tomorrow & if I don't get some sleep now, I won't get sleep anytime soon.

[OklahomaTuba]

Speaking of Iran, seems that nutjob is going to visit Castro. Chavez might even stop by.

I wonder if Chavez will be inviting his new friends Sheehan or Belefonte to come with? Havanna is great this time of year I understand.

[Octavian]

I'm bailin'. I'll probably get called out tomorrow & if I don't get some sleep now, I won't get sleep anytime soon.

good convo, SB68.

[Octavian]

Speaking of Iran, seems that nutjob is going to visit Castro. Chavez might even stop by.

So in managing our global structure, what grade would you give the W Adm.?

[mdklatt]

Ahh, of course.

Well, might as well bend over and let our terrorist overlords anal rape us then since we have no chance.

Since we can't beat em, might as well bite the pillow and go for a ride on the chocolate waterslide huh?

Damn, I sure did like them skysrapers.

Do you have a speed other than "literal"?

[picasso]

I read Carter's latest book (Our Endangered Values) a couple of months ago and I don't remember getting the impression that he blamed Bush for the aftermath of Katrina. Obviously, he's not a fan of Bush; but I don't think he holds the man personally responsible for the response to the flooding.

Damn dude, I hope you didn't pay good money for it.

[SoonerProphet]

So, Lincoln was wrong?


http://www.sobran.com/columns/2006/060124.shtml

[OklahomaTuba]

http://www.sobran.com/columns/2006/060124.shtml

Good article, except this line at the end is BS.


And once again, a Republican president is claiming wartime powers, under the Constitution, to act outside the Constitution.

Total BS. FISA wouldn't be a law, with stated requirements for such acts if this was some how "outside the Constitution."

Amazing that this is so hard for people to understand.

[Hatfield]

so who exactly are we at war with again? it is getting so confusing.

Iraq
Al Queso
Afghanwigsistan

did i miss anyone?

have we officially declared war against a group? can you do that...because if so the boy scouts are GOING DOWN!!!

p.s. rev's comments were bad; jimmy's not as bad because it was at least relevant to the king's.

[1stTimeCaller]

I'm all fighting the terrorists but I've missed something somewhere. Back in school I thought I learned that the President can make war without Congress declaring War for up to 60 or 90 days. Has this rule/policy been changed? Did Congress make a declaration of War?

I'm asking honest questions, not trolling or looking to start/continue the flaming.

[SoonerProphet]

The argument that Congress on Sept 14 gave the Executive the unlimited power to wage war in the US and across the globe is absurd. Not only that, but the AG, while trying to seek out the authority to prolonged warrantless spying was told Congress wouldn't grant it.

The administrations decsion to bypass the warrant process may have indeed violated the 4th Amendment, like that would be any surprise to tough on crimers or bomb em to the stone age statists.

[mdklatt]

I'm asking honest questions, not trolling or looking to start/continue the flaming.

How worthless is that? :D

[1stTimeCaller]

I'd honestly like to know if my memory sucks or that the rules were changed. I don't care who changed them if they were changed.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

You cool guys on the left had better start yelling your nonsense EVEN LOUDER! It's an election year, and you wanna be sure MORE PEOPLE CAN HEAR YOU, so they will see what capable leaders your candidates will make, and then vote with conviction.

[picasso]

back to the original topic. I'm impressed with Cater's comments during the funeral. it was a funeral right?

[OklahomaTuba]

The argument that Congress on Sept 14 gave the Executive the unlimited power to wage war in the US and across the globe is absurd. Not only that, but the AG, while trying to seek out the authority to prolonged warrantless spying was told Congress wouldn't grant it.

The administrations decsion to bypass the warrant process may have indeed violated the 4th Amendment, like that would be any surprise to tough on crimers or bomb em to the stone age statists.

Wow.

Add another loon to the ranks that think we should not be doing stupid things like national security during a war. What waste of time. Its obvious we should just stop listening to the terrorist networks calling the cells and agents in this country. We all know there is no way they would attack us from within, thats just for those evil neocon statists.

And the worse thing is, nearly everything you said in the above is so wrong, its nearly laughable.

I suggest a quick read of the facts. Such as this nice little nugget called section 109 of the FISA law.

Or the Hamdi case, which reaffirmed this law.

[OklahomaTuba]

Another good example of why it is ****** stupid to trying and force the government from protecting us.


Police risked offending delicate religious sensitivities by raiding the Finsbury Park mosque, but their actions were justified by the mini-arsenal of weapons, terrorist paraphernalia and forged passports they found inside.

Operation Mermant, which began in the early hours of January 20 2003, involved scores of officers in body armour using battering rams to enter the building.

Full details of what they discovered during three days of searches can only be revealed today following the conclusion of Abu Hamza's trial on race hate charges.

The stash of equipment included chemical warfare protection suits, or NBC (nuclear, biological and chemical) suits, as they are technically known.

They were found together with three blank-firing pistols, a stun gun and CS spray.

Officers also found a gas mask, handcuffs, hunting knives and a walkie talkie.

Detectives believe the equipment was being used in terror training camps located somewhere within the UK.

It is not clear exactly where these were, but speculation in the past has centred around remote parts of Wales, in particular the Brecon Beacons, and national parks such as those in the Highlands, Yorkshire Dales or Lake District.

"Our assessment was that this was material that had been used in training camps, probably here in the UK," a senior police source said.

Some of the material was found close to Hamza's office, although police sources admit they could not put his fingerprints on it, "literally or metaphorically".

Police also found more than 100 stolen or forged passports and identity documents, laminating equipment, credit cards and chequebooks hidden under rugs and concealed above ceilings. One officer recalled pulling down part of a ceiling to find passports raining down on him. http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article343846.ece

Yup. Better stop listening to these people. Nothing to see here at all.

[poon4heisman2006]

Yeah Tuba, but that was in the UK. There is NO possible way that could've happend here.:rolleyes:

[mdklatt]

Another good example of why it is ****** stupid to trying and force the government from protecting us.

Yup. Better stop listening to these people. Nothing to see here at all.

Where does it say they used illegal wiretaps?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

These people are a disgrace.

And Carter has no room to talk bashing another President. That guy should stick to building houses.

Especially since he was the most impotent pres since the 19th century...

[Tear Down This Wall]

The key thing is to hope the Democrats continue to keep defending terrorists and bad-mouthing president Bush. It's been a winner for the GOP ever since 9/11. When you're opponent is hanging himself and asking for more rope, keep giving him the rope, so to speak.

[Octavian]

The key thing is to hope the Democrats continue to keep defending terrorists and bad-mouthing president Bush.

Name one time a Democrat has defended any terrorist anywhere. One time. Wanting to preserve some of the basic principles of the American Creed does not equate to defending terrorists. Absolutism at its finest...

Some of you act like George Walker Bush is your Muhammed.

He has a 40% approval rating...

[1stTimeCaller]

Some of you act like George Walker Bush is your Muhammed.

He has a 40% approval rating...

I wonder if that will keep him from getting re-elected? ;)

[Octavian]

I wonder if that will keep him from getting re-elected? ;)

Surely they're working on an ammendment as we speak ;)

In that case it would be President Bill Clinton vs. President George W. Bush in 08. Pretty scary.

[C&CDean]

I'm not gonna get all into the wiretap/presidential/jimmah/bush bull****.

However, I will say this. Coretta Scott King was not a hero. She was a money-grubbing scumball just like her son. They made a handsome living on her husband's name - and neither one of them (her or her son) made a single speck of a difference in the civil rights movement. I read the other day that the "I have a dream" speech cannot be used without paying royalties to the Kings.

Now I don't have a problem with them making jack off their dead relative's name, my problem is with all the worshipping of her. She was a broke-down old lady who's long-dead husband kept her rich. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Octavian]

I'm not gonna get all into the wiretap/presidential/jimmah/bush bull****.

However, I will say this. Coretta Scott King was not a hero. She was a money-grubbing scumball just like her son. They made a handsome living on her husband's name - and neither one of them (her or her son) made a single speck of a difference in the civil rights movement. I read the other day that the "I have a dream" speech cannot be used without paying royalties to the Kings.

Now I don't have a problem with them making jack off their dead relative's name, my problem is with all the worshipping of her. She was a broke-down old lady who's long-dead husband kept her rich. Nothing more, nothing less.

excellent analysis, Mr. Duke

[mdklatt]

I wonder if that will keep him from getting re-elected? ;)

I predict at least one braying jackass on the right will call for the suspension of the presidential term limit, since everybody who doesn't hate America knows "you can't change presidents in the middle of a war".

[C&CDean]

excellent analysis, Mr. Duke

Oh, gee. Another liberal plays the race card. How about taking a big ol' swig of blow me?

[DeadSolidPerfect]

I'm not sure if it's arrogance or ignorance...why do liberals assume the government gives two hoots what they have to say to one another? There are 250,000,000 Americans, the NSA has neither the resources nor manpower to "wiretap" the clerk down at Borders and the manager of Starbucks. Didn't the Washington Post report only 5000 calls intercepted since the program began and only 10 credible leads? Sounds like they are only going after the bad guys and leaving the lefties alone to finish the job of destroying the Democratic party.

[Octavian]

thanks for the offer but no...whos the liberal here?

[C&CDean]

thanks for the offer but no...whos the liberal here?
The guy with the Marxist avatar, I'm thinking.

[Tear Down This Wall]

You forgot to throw Jesse Jackson in there, too, Dean. No one's has pimped poverty (the words of the great J.C. Watts) like Jesse since MLK's death.

[mdklatt]

I'm not sure if it's arrogance or ignorance...why do liberals assume the government gives two hoots what they have to say to one another? There are 250,000,000 Americans, the NSA has neither the resources nor manpower to "wiretap" the clerk down at Borders and the manager of Starbucks. Didn't the Washington Post report only 5000 calls intercepted since the program began and only 10 credible leads? Sounds like they are only going after the bad guys and leaving the lefties alone to finish the job of destroying the Democratic party.

Why do you trust the government so much?

[Octavian]

The guy with the Marxist avatar, I'm thinking.

Its more Maoist but whatever. If he wore OU caps then he's fine w/ me. :D

[DeadSolidPerfect]

Why do you trust the government so much?
I trust this government to do all it can to protect me and the ones I love againts attack from a barbaric enemy. Who am I supposed to trust to do that job? You?

[C&CDean]

Sorry md, but you are pwned.

[mdklatt]

I trust this government to do all it can to protect me and the ones I love againts attack from a barbaric enemy.

I'm not sure I can continue to trust this government to protect me from itself.

The political spectrum is more of a circle than a straight line. Communism and fascism are not on opposite sides; they meet at 6:00. I'm at 12:00. Right wing whackjobs, left wing whackjobs--all the same. I don't trust politcians of any stripe farther than I could throw Dean. The Democrats want to take my money away, but now the Republicans want to take my rights away. From the infinite wisdom of Stan Marsh: Nothing but dochebags and *******s. The guy you voted for is looking to screw you over just as sure as the guy you didn't vote for. It's our government, and our responsibility to keep an eye on those brigands in Washington and every state capitol and city hall.

[C&CDean]

I'm not sure I can continue to trust this government to protect me from itself.

The political spectrum is more of a circle than a straight line. Communism and fascism are not on opposite sides; they meet at 6:00. I'm at 12:00. Right wing whackjobs, left wing whackjobs--all the same. I don't trust politcians of any stripe farther than I could throw Dean. The Democrats want to take my money away, but now the Republicans want to take my rights away. From the infinite wisdom of Stan Marsh: Nothing but dochebags and *******s. The guy you voted for is looking to screw you over just as sure as the guy you didn't vote for. It's our government, and our responsibility to keep an eye on those brigands in Washington and every state capitol and city hall.

I agree.

[mdklatt]

I agree.

So who's pwnd now? :D

[C&CDean]

Oh you still are, cause you do have to rely on your government to protect you from the savages. I mean I got your back and all, but homey can only do so much.

[mdklatt]

Oh you still are, cause you do have to rely on your government to protect you from the savages. I mean I got your back and all, but homey can only do so much.

My point is that the government can do so without resorting to increasing invasions into our privacy. There are already mechanisms in place to get a search warrant in a matter of minutes, so why the need to do away with them altogether?