I was livid!

[David Earl]

I volunteered to be a judge at a local science fair. I enjoyed the experience and enjoyed visiting with the kids about their work. But one situation bothered me; in fact, it may be livid.

After each contestant got their two sheets filled out by a judge they were free to go. There was one section that was completely cleared out except for two kids sitting at one project. I wondered why the other judges had passed them over. I suspected they were special needs (special ed) so I figured I'd rush in like a fool where angels feared to tread. It just didn't seem right to leave those two sitting there by themselves while their classmates had long since gone.

I sat down and began to ask them questions about their project. They looked up at me a grinned. Big grin. :D <-- That kind of grin. No words. Just grin and drool. I was not the least bit uncomfortable. I figure there would be some way I could get some response out of them about their project. I asked and talked and led and suggested. I got very few words and lots of blank looks.

They had very little or no idea about what was going on. Their teacher had obviously done most of the work. Not the teacher's fault. The kids simply couldn't do any more. I visited with them a little more as best as I could then went to one of the supervising teachers. I asked her about the kids. "Am I supposed to score them based on what I think they're capable of or strictly on what they did?"

Teacher: "We need you to score them the same as everybody else."

David Earl: "As strict as everybody else?"

Teacher: "Yes."

David Earl: "They will get poor marks just as if they weren't special needs."

Teacher: "I know."

David Earl: "This is 'No Child Left Behind' at work isn't it?"

Teacher: "Yes. I know."

David Earl: "I'll let you guess what I think about this."

Teacher: "I know."

I proceeded to fill out the score card with no "sympathy points" just as I was instructed. I felt like a heel. The teachers like it no better than I do. Those kids are set up for failure. Brutal failure. No Child Left Behind forces them to compete in an arena where they have no chance whatsoever. The only thing that spared them from being dead last is a couple of lazy kids who basically did nothing but scribble on a poster board. I suppose the bright side is the little boogers are too afflicted to have any concept of being dead last.

Why can they not be in a special class that gives them skills they need to survive? Why can they not have special training they can use? Why force them into an arena where the have no clue what's going on, much less an opportunity to achieve something? The special education teachers are still there. They still know what to teach special needs children to give them something of value. Why not let them do their job?

Yes, I was livid. Not at the kids, not at the teachers, not at the school. I was and am livid at the federal government. STAY OUT OF THE CLASSROOM BEAUROCRATS! YOUR little science fair project of shoving these kids into the mainstream is a failured. Dead last!

[OklahomaTuba]

This doesn't make sense to me, cause with the battle I am fighting right now with my brother, some of the "no child left behind" laws really helped him in regards to stuff like grading, testing and discipline.

I can't imagine how this situation would be different than what I am dealing with. I am sure this is covered in the education with disabilities act, wrights law, etc but I might be wrong.

[StoopTroup]

The only thing that spared them from being dead last is a couple of lazy kids who basically did nothing but scribble on a poster board.
Those Lazy Kids should have gotten High Marks for creativeness IMO.

Art is a highly disciplined expression that may seem nothing but a scribble, but when closer examination takes place, one may reveal it's true greatness.

[David Earl]

I know they used to give kids in this type of sitation special training, life skills, more repititions of basic academics. In time they slowly progressed and held on to a little bit. Now they run them through the grades in the main classes like epsom salts through a widow woman. What do they learn? I don't see how they can learn much because either they slow down the entire class or run off and leave the kids with special needs.

It just seems brutal to me to subject those two kids to the same standard as everybody else. Giving them the marks they "deserved" *puke* made me angry. They didn't DESERVE that!

[David Earl]

ST, you should have seen the scribbling. I wanted so bad to tell one kid what I thought of his project. He had nothing. I mean NOTHING! Just scribbling on posterboard. No experiment, no materials to look at. Nothing.

[StoopTroup]

ST, you should have seen the scribbling. I wanted so bad to tell one kid what I thought of his project. He had nothing. I mean NOTHING! Just scribbling on posterboard. No experiment, no materials to look at. Nothing.
I bet your tongue is sore from biting it...lol

[David Earl]

I bet your tongue is sore from biting it...lol

I called my oldest daughter later and was laughing about the lazy ones. It would be fun to just cut loose on them, but their little hearts couldn't take it. I guess that's their teachers' job.

I asked most of the kids how they got their idea or why they picked their project theme. One kid told me, "I picked his because it seemed the easiest and like it would take the least time." :rolleyes:

[David Earl]

One kid told me, "I picked his because it seemed the easiest and like it would take the least time." :rolleyes:

I must confess, I was a bit like that in phases of my school years.

[yermom]

I know they used to give kids in this type of sitation special training, life skills, more repititions of basic academics. In time they slowly progressed and held on to a little bit. Now they run them through the grades in the main classes like epsom salts through a widow woman. What do they learn? I don't see how they can learn much because either they slow down the entire class or run off and leave the kids with special needs.

It just seems brutal to me to subject those two kids to the same standard as everybody else. Giving them the marks they "deserved" *puke* made me angry. They didn't DESERVE that!

i guess i don't get it

No Child Left Behind means that "Special Needs" kids just have a class with everyone else?

[yermom]

I must confess, I was a bit like that in phases of my school years.

i would have been somewhere between that and no posterboard :D

[Ike]

DE, great post.

the thing that is really illustrated by this situation, and also with Tuba's, is that its very difficult to create a one-size-fits-all education policy across the board and expect it to benifit everybody. for a policy like that, you have to hope that at least it benifits most kids, and maybe it does, maybe it doesnt...

But I think you are dead right about the federal government and the level of involvement they have in the classroom. its ridiculous. I am of the opinion that in order to improve public schools, the community serviced by the schools need to be the ones making the biggest decisions. before the state. and most certainly before the feds.

I applaud you for volunteering for the local science fair, because oppurtunities like this are the way that we learn what is really going on in our schools. especially for those of us that do not have children in school. A lot of people don't realize that the schools serve more than just the children of the community, and that the community at large needs to take a bigger role in their oversight. this can only really be done by going in and seeing whats going on first hand.

[NormanPride]

The thing I've learned as a teachers' son are sad. My mother came home many nights depressed because she just couldn't help some of her children. It crushed her to see the defeated looks on their faces as they kept being set up for failure. Kids are mean, I bet she didn't even see half of what the more "normal" kids said.

Here's the deal, basically. Spec Ed (don't call it that! It's not PC! those poor kids would feel insulted.) is based on potential, not total capacity. In IQ terms, say a genius with an IQ of 150 is acting like one with an IQ of 130. Well, that's 20 points of potential he's wasting. Spec Ed. Now, you have a challenged child with an IQ around 60 but they're hitting that 60 IQ pretty regularly. Well, that kid is doing just fine! Keep them in the regular classes, despite the fact that they don't even know how to count money in 5th grade.

At least that's the way it is in Texas... :(

[David Earl]

Ike, you are correct about getting involved at local schools.

Yermom, yes, it's bascially mainstreaming on steroids. There's also a bunch of rules that go along with it that have special needs kids taking the same tests (possibly adjusted?) as all the other kids.

[Soonrboy]

Good for you judging the science fair! It was always hard for me to find judges. As far as the kids with disabilities go, there usually isn't anything in special ed for science...kids qualify for special ed for reading, math, language. But are in regular classes for science, social studies, etc.

Before NCLB, the special ed kids were tested on the grade level they were working on, which could be 1 or 2 years lower than the grade they are enrolled in. Now, every child, even the mentally retarded, have to take the test ON GRADE LEVEL. So, a MR kid in the fifth grade, who is working on the second grade level, has to take a 5th grade state mandated test. What good is this? What purpose is being served by this?

[StoopTroup]

We have a leader(?) at my Daughter's school who doesn't believe kids can get a perfect score.

I fail to understand her reasoning.

I'm not alone on this either.

But...what can you do?

[David Earl]

NormanPride nailed it. They sit in the mainstream getting nothing because what's going on around them is above what they can ever learn. Next year they advance higher. Makes no sense.

[David Earl]

Before NCLB, the special ed kids were tested on the grade level they were working on, which could be 1 or 2 years lower than the grade they are enrolled in. Now, every child, even the mentally retarded, have to take the test ON GRADE LEVEL. So, a MR kid in the fifth grade, who is working on the second grade level, has to take a 5th grade state mandated test. What good is this? What purpose is being served by this?

Well said Soonrboy.

[David Earl]

We have a leader(?) at my Daughter's school who doesn't believe kids can get a perfect score.

I fail to understand her reasoning.

I'm not alone on this either.

But...what can you do?

I had a drafting teacher like that. REFUSED to give anybody a 100. If you got a 98 you basically had a perfect drawing.

[Ike]

NormanPride nailed it. They sit in the mainstream getting nothing because what's going on around them is above what they can ever learn. Next year they advance higher. Makes no sense.


so the next question I have then is why do they continue to advance these kids? If they are working on material 2 or 3 years below the level they are enrolled in, why are they enrolled in the level for their age group?

[David Earl]

That's a mighty fine ? there Ike!

[OklahomaTuba]

Good for you judging the science fair! It was always hard for me to find judges. As far as the kids with disabilities go, there usually isn't anything in special ed for science...kids qualify for special ed for reading, math, language. But are in regular classes for science, social studies, etc.

Before NCLB, the special ed kids were tested on the grade level they were working on, which could be 1 or 2 years lower than the grade they are enrolled in. Now, every child, even the mentally retarded, have to take the test ON GRADE LEVEL. So, a MR kid in the fifth grade, who is working on the second grade level, has to take a 5th grade state mandated test. What good is this? What purpose is being served by this?

I hope this isn't true, I guess my brother was just lucky, he has been in classes that they tailor the work to his tested grade level from his IEP.

This was at one really poor *** school as well. Do they really treat the MR that differently?

[NormanPride]

We have a leader(?) at my Daughter's school who doesn't believe kids can get a perfect score.

I fail to understand her reasoning.

I'm not alone on this either.

But...what can you do?

How old is this person? Have they had much teaching experience? In my experience, the younger administrators seem to try and run everything by the book. If people can't hack it then they're not trying. If they speak up then they're not being team players and need to be "dealt with".

Stupid administration is the bane of the good teacher's existence.

[OklahomaTuba]

Good for you judging the science fair! It was always hard for me to find judges. As far as the kids with disabilities go, there usually isn't anything in special ed for science...kids qualify for special ed for reading, math, language. But are in regular classes for science, social studies, etc.
Ahh makes sense now. I don't recall anything special for science.

[StoopTroup]

How old is this person? Have they had much teaching experience? In my experience, the younger administrators seem to try and run everything by the book. If people can't hack it then they're not trying. If they speak up then they're not being team players and need to be "dealt with".

Stupid administration is the bane of the good teacher's existence.
I believe she is over 30.

My Wife told me about it and when I told her I was going to talk to her she gave me the spiel that I wouldn't be the first Parent to try and that the other Teacher's were afraid to buck her.

I thought it borders on illegality.

My reasoning is that if you are changing kids scores then you are skewing the actual grades. I thought that might be illegal if funding was affected by doing so.

Anyway...I have enough a-holes to deal with and I won't take on this without others involvement.

[fadada1]

my GF works (indirectly) for "no child left behind" - let's just say there are some really screwed up kids out there that shouldn't be forced to deal with these issues. as david earl suggests, blaming the kids isn't the thing to do. blaming the government, IS, however.

from what i can tell, money is the issue here. my lady works with providors for tutoring services... in a nutshell, these tutoring services are lying out their assess just to get some funding. unfortunately, the money doesn't seem to be going to any actual tutoring. she's done a site visit to an address that turned out to be a vacent lot. she's also done 2 visits to the same place, and upon her arrival, no kids were there getting tutored. very strange indeed.

she hates W with a passion.

[NormanPride]

Are you talking about changing test scores? Standardized test scores? Or just grading harsh? If it's just harsh grading, then she's just a ****. :D But if it's changing scores or tampering with the standardized stuff... that's serious.

[Ike]

We have a leader(?) at my Daughter's school who doesn't believe kids can get a perfect score.

I fail to understand her reasoning.

I'm not alone on this either.

But...what can you do?

In the right conditions, I would agree with this kind of reasoning.

see, in my wacko idea of testing kids, I would make tests with questions, problems, etc of increasing difficulty all the way up to some crazy hard level. the point being that by testing them, you not only test their understanding of the material, but also test how well they carry the material over into other realms of thinking....how creative they can get with it...so you not only get an idea of how well they learn one thing, but how well learning that one thing opens doors to new things for them...

but this also requires that tests be written to this kind of reasoning. that at some point in the test, the student is almost gauranteed to miss a few points here and there, and that the point in which they start missing questions tells you something about the way that kid thinks, and helps you either place them in a class more suited to their abilities, or to tailor some of your lessons to their thinking....


but without requiring tests to fit this model, thats a rediculous line of reasoning.

[yermom]

Ahh makes sense now. I don't recall anything special for science.


that's just weird...

no wonder no one knows ****e about Science in this country

poor Ike is doing graduate work in Physics and can't even spell "benefit" :(

;)

[yermom]

In the right conditions, I would agree with this kind of reasoning.

see, in my wacko idea of testing kids, I would make tests with questions, problems, etc of increasing difficulty all the way up to some crazy hard level. the point being that by testing them, you not only test their understanding of the material, but also test how well they carry the material over into other realms of thinking....how creative they can get with it...so you not only get an idea of how well they learn one thing, but how well learning that one thing opens doors to new things for them...

but this also requires that tests be written to this kind of reasoning. that at some point in the test, the student is almost gauranteed to miss a few points here and there, and that the point in which they start missing questions tells you something about the way that kid thinks, and helps you either place them in a class more suited to their abilities, or to tailor some of your lessons to their thinking....


but without requiring tests to fit this model, thats a rediculous line of reasoning.


i don't really have a problem with this, assuming we are talking about your method or something subjective

it doesn't really tell you anything if everyone gets a 100% on something

[Ike]

poor Ike is doing graduate work in Physics and can't even spell "benefit" :(

;)


sorry....I originally wrote the post out entirely in mathematics, and then had to use my math-to-english translator to post it in english. looks like there are some bugs with the spellchecker at the end of that program ;)

[StoopTroup]

Are you talking about changing test scores? Standardized test scores? Or just grading harsh? If it's just harsh grading, then she's just a ****. :D But if it's changing scores or tampering with the standardized stuff... that's serious.
Just talked to my Wife and she said it was the Principles policy on everything. When i asked if it was on the standardised tests she said she didn't know but this is what she was told....

That it's on report cards and that there is no such thing as 100% or an A.

I had her check the last report card and the Math Standard said "A" and the Language Arts said "A". The card also shows our Daughter had a 91% Total Reading Average, 90% math, 9 weeks test 83%...

Last Quarter it was 95% reading, 73% math and 96% 9 week test.

We got on the stick with flashcards and such when we saw her math was 73 and she raised the bar.

If the Principle disciplines teachers who give 100s there's probably nothing you can do about it unless you get their support is my understanding.

On top of that...who knows if it's even true and not some Mother's vendetta against the Principle for sending her kid home for a policy violation.

I'd like to think that our Daughter is capable of high scores and not just being lumped into a catagory however.

[yermom]

sorry....I originally wrote the post out entirely in mathematics, and then had to use my math-to-english translator to post it in english. looks like there are some bugs with the spellchecker at the end of that program ;)

heh

[yermom]

Just talked to my Wife and she said it was the Principles policy on everything. When i asked if it was on the standardised tests she said she didn't know but this is what she was told....

That it's on report cards and that there is no such thing as 100% or an A.

I had her check the last report card and the Math Standard said "A" and the Language Arts said "A". The card also shows our Daughter had a 91% Total Reading Average, 90% math, 9 weeks test 83%...

Last Quarter it was 95% reading, 73% math and 96% 9 week test.

We got on the stick with flashcards and such when we saw her math was 73 and she raised the bar.

If the Principle disciplines teachers who give 100s there's probably nothing you can do about it unless you get their support is my understanding.

On top of that...who knows if it's even true and not some Mother's vendetta against the Principle for sending her kid home for a policy violation.

I'd like to think that our Daughter is capable of high scores and not just being lumped into a catagory however.


i guess it goes back to the philosophy

any kid in school has something left to learn, i don't put that much stock in grades though

giving someone 100% to me means there is nothing left, nothing to improve on... i can't think of a stage in education where this is the case

now not giving anyone an "A" sounds a bit harsh

[StoopTroup]

I still wonder if it didn't all start from someone who played math and spelling tapes through a boombox that was taped to the mother's belly.

[Soonrboy]

so the next question I have then is why do they continue to advance these kids? If they are working on material 2 or 3 years below the level they are enrolled in, why are they enrolled in the level for their age group?

cause you can't have a 16 year old hanging out in the elementary schools.

[StoopTroup]

cause you can't have a 16 year old hanging out in the elementary schools.
Yep.

http://www.wwlp.com/news/segments/sybersy/slingblade.jpg

[Ike]

cause you can't have a 16 year old hanging out in the elementary schools.

ok, I'll accept that answer.....still, seems like there should be some kind of work-around with respect to NCLB....

[Okla-homey]

In 1967, I pwn3d the Carter County Science Fair. Purple ribbon "Superior Award" for the whole flippin' county-wide 2d grade.

just saying.

[NormanPride]

i guess it goes back to the philosophy

any kid in school has something left to learn, i don't put that much stock in grades though

giving someone 100% to me means there is nothing left, nothing to improve on... i can't think of a stage in education where this is the case

now not giving anyone an "A" sounds a bit harsh

Exactly. The philosophy that the school embraces is not the "You got everything right on this sheet" rather, it's the "You're at about this level of education right now". Now as for changing grades, that's too bad. If it was High School, I'd raise a stink. But otherwise, nobody really pays attention to the numbers.

[BajaOklahoma]

SDAA is what some of our special education take instead of the regular TAKS test.
The student with disabilities act mandates that kids be served in the regular classroom as much as possible. I don't know the magic number, but if the IEP requires a certain amount of assistance, the child may be pulled into the resource area for class.
Our structure kids (Autistic) are in the grade level for a good part of the day. While I understand they do benefit from being with regular kids so they can model good behavior, what about the regular kids having to listen to our structure child yelling for hours (and it happens everyday).
Teaching is hard. Figuring out the right thing to do for everyone is harder.

[Sooner_Bob]

Good for you judging the science fair! It was always hard for me to find judges. As far as the kids with disabilities go, there usually isn't anything in special ed for science...kids qualify for special ed for reading, math, language. But are in regular classes for science, social studies, etc.

Before NCLB, the special ed kids were tested on the grade level they were working on, which could be 1 or 2 years lower than the grade they are enrolled in. Now, every child, even the mentally retarded, have to take the test ON GRADE LEVEL. So, a MR kid in the fifth grade, who is working on the second grade level, has to take a 5th grade state mandated test. What good is this? What purpose is being served by this?


Exactly.

[LoyalFan]

Ha! Gotcha, D. Earl!
Y'see, I planted our two smartest kids right where you found 'em. I carefully coached them in how to drool and stuff, and, as a reward for totally foolin' ya', they won First Prize!
Too easy, toooooooo easeeeeeee!
It is to laugh!

Daryl Einstein
Science Department Chairman/Short bus driver
Slapout High School

[David Earl]

Ha! Gotcha, D. Earl!
Y'see, I planted our two smartest kids right where you found 'em. I carefully coached them in how to drool and stuff, and, as a reward for totally foolin' ya', they won First Prize!
Too easy, toooooooo easeeeeeee!
It is to laugh!

Daryl Einstein
Science Department Chairman/Short bus driver
Slapout High School

Slapout! That is the place with the cooooolest name....