Does this qualify as torture?

[Howzit]

I have mixed feelings on the whole torture thing. I think some advocacy groups are out of line in some aspects of how the define torture. Sleep deprivation, for instance.

So what about this guy? (http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/01/23/suffocation.case.ap/index.html) Does this qualify? And does the punishment fit the crime?



Prosecutors said Welshofer put a sleeping bag over the head of Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush, sat on his chest and used his hand to cover the general's mouth while questioning him at a detention camp in Iraq in 2003.



Chief Warrant Officer Lewis Welshofer Jr. also was ordered to forfeit $6,000 salary and was largely restricted to his barracks and workplace for 60 days.



FORT CARSON, Colorado (AP) -- A military jury on Monday ordered a reprimand but no jail time for an Army interrogator convicted of killing an Iraqi general by stuffing him headfirst into a sleeping bag and sitting on his chest.

Chief Warrant Officer Lewis Welshofer Jr. also was ordered to forfeit $6,000 salary and was largely restricted to his barracks and workplace for 60 days.
Welshofer, 43, had originally been charged with murder and faced up to life in prison. But on Saturday he was convicted instead of negligent homicide and negligent dereliction of duty.
On the lesser charges, he had faced a maximum of three years and three months in prison, a dishonorable discharge, loss of his pension and other penalties.
After hearing the sentence reached by the jury of six Army officers, Welshofer hugged his wife. Soldiers in the gallery -- many of whom had worked with Welshofer and who had testified as character witnesses -- broke into applause.
The sentence now goes to the commanding general, Maj. Gen. Robert W. Mixon. He cannot order a harsher sentence, but could lighten it or set the whole verdict aside, defense attorney Frank Spinner said.
Spinner said he might ask the general to vacate the verdict.
Prosecutors said Welshofer put a sleeping bag over the head of Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush, sat on his chest and used his hand to cover the general's mouth while questioning him at a detention camp in Iraq in 2003.
Prosecutors said the general suffocated.
Spinner said he was gratified by Monday's verdict but said his client should never have been charged.
"When you send our men and women over there to fight, and to put their lives on the line, you've got to back them up, you've got to give them clear rules, and you've got to give them enough room to make mistakes without treating them like criminals," he said.
Welshofer said he had "the utmost respect for the decision the panel members came to tonight. ... I'm sure it was difficult for them."
Earlier in the day during the sentencing hearing, Welshofer fought back tears as he apologized and asked the military jury not to separate him from his wife and children by sending him to prison.
"I deeply apologize if my actions tarnished the soldiers serving in Iraq," Welshofer said.
His wife, Barbara, testified that she was worried about providing for their three children if her husband was sentenced to prison, but she said she was proud of him for contesting the case.
"I love him more for fighting this," she said, tears welling up in her eyes. "He's always said that you need to do the right thing, and sometimes the right thing is the hardest thing to do."
Lt. Col. Paul Calvert, also testifying on Welshofer's behalf, said attacks by Iraqi insurgents around the western Iraqi city of al Qaim, the area where Mowhoush was taken into custody, "went to practically none" when Mowhoush died.
Prosecutor Maj. Tiernan Dolan did not question the assertion but suggested Mowhoush's death likely denied coalition forces valuable information. Dolan did not call any witnesses at the sentencing hearing.
Welshofer, dressed in his Army uniform and seated between his attorneys, listened quietly Monday as other witnesses praised his abilities as a solider.
The defense had argued a heart condition caused Mowhoush's death, and that Welshofer's commanders had approved the interrogation technique.
Prosecutors described Welshofer as a rogue interrogator who became frustrated with Mowhoush's refusal to answer questions and escalated his techniques from simple interviews to beatings to simulating drowning, and finally, to death.

[Sooner_Bob]

Having websense play tricks on you and blocking SF.com due to high LAN traffic is torture . . .

[Harry Beanbag]

Since the guy died, I would have a hard time arguing that it wasn't torture.

[C&CDean]

Dude shoulda talked. **** him.

[OklahomaTuba]

War is hell, isn't it?

[StoopTroup]

I don't think it's torture...

I don't think things like this help our Troops during "Operation: This Is What We Should Be Doing, So Don't Ask Us When We'll Be Finished".

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

I bet the next guy talked eeek

[KABOOKIE]

What's next? We can't spy on our enemies? :rolleyes:

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

I hear they are passing a law where you can't prosecute anyone unless they admit to it...because there is a small chance they didn't do it :(

[Hatfield]

howzit why did you leave out the part about the guy dying?

personally, if it was me, i would think i was being tortured if someone was suffocating me to death....i might even have the audacity to think i was being murdered.

[OklahomaTuba]

If this soldier had just shot the dude, he would have been just fine. A lot less work as well.

[Harry Beanbag]

If this soldier had just shot the dude, he would have been just fine. A lot less work as well.


In prison? I think you're very wrong.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

People die all the time, he may have asked for it ;)

[JohnnyMack]

War is hell, isn't it?

If it's a war, then we should be following the articles of the Geneva convention which prohibits this behavior.

[yermom]

there is a difference between someone you have captured and someone you are in combat with, right?

who is going to surrender if they are just going to be killed when they don't talk?

what ever happened to "name, rank and serial number"?

[Howzit]

howzit why did you leave out the part about the guy dying?

Because I have an agenda.

I linked the article, guess I assumed people would read it.

[Hatfield]

interesting.

[SoonerWood]

Prohibited or not - it will continue to go on because gathering intel is a key factor in a war.

[Harry Beanbag]

Prohibited or not - it will continue to go on because gathering intel is a key factor in a war.


Yep. Interoggation and/or torture of a few can save thousands later on.

[OklahomaTuba]

If it's a war, then we should be following the articles of the Geneva convention which prohibits this behavior.We are, since they guy was in court and all. :rolleyes:

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

Another Abu Ghraib photo :(

http://www.wrestlingarsenal.net/public/393BretHart/sharpshooter_austin.jpg

[yermom]

We are, since they guy was in court and all. :rolleyes:

yeah, but apparently those are just pesky rules that get in the way of freedom

[OklahomaTuba]

Yep. Interoggation and/or torture of a few can save thousands later on.If the FBI could have interoggated Mossoui, they might have been able to stop 9/11.

But because they couldn't, the FBI wouldn't even open his computer, which later showed all the details of the attack.

[sanantoniosooner]

put a sleeping bag over the head of Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush, sat on his chest and used his hand to cover the general's mouth while questioning him at a detention camp in Iraq in 2003.

Slight change of scenerio....

IF it was my son instead of a general..........and
I farted in the bag, but he used his own hand to cover his mouth......
and there were no questions involved..........

Should I get a lawyer?

[Hatfield]

If the FBI could have interoggated Mossoui, they might have been able to stop 9/11.

But because they couldn't, the FBI wouldn't even open his computer, which later showed all the details of the attack.

you are right.

it really was that simple.

the only variable that stopped us from preventing 9/11 was that one fact.

[Hatfield]

Slight change of scenerio....

IF it was my son instead of a general..........and
I farted in the bag, but he used his own hand to cover his mouth......
and there were no questions involved..........

Should I get a lawyer?


i think you would have the long recognized defense of "smeller's the feller"

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

Just pull a Saddam and say you aren't coming to court...they would reschedule!

[OklahomaTuba]

you are right.

it really was that simple.

the only variable that stopped us from preventing 9/11 was that one fact.

Remember "the wall" that was placed to keep the CIA/FBI/NSA and other organization from talking to each other?

That was another one that stopped us from preventing 9/11 as well.

Add another notch to the belt of blame Clinton should have for allowing 9/11 to happen.

[Pieces Hit]

I thought this was an Ashlee Simson thread.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

I blame Thomas Jefferson for not writing this **** in the Constitution!!

[Hatfield]

how about say reading the memo that was titled "crazy people want to use planes to do some bad stuff" or maybe paying attention to the phoenix memo that said hey that moussoui guy is in flight school and he doesn't want to learn how to land.

the blame lies with all the alphabet agencies, bush, clinton, bush, etc. You acting like it is solely clinton's fault would be laughable from anyone other than you. However considering the source it is just typical.

[OklahomaTuba]

how about say reading the memo that was titled "crazy people want to use planes to do some bad stuff" or maybe paying attention to the phoenix memo that said hey that moussoui guy is in flight school and he doesn't want to learn how to land.
Like I said, remember "the wall" Clinton built?

No greater example of this than the phoenix memo. Thank GOD The Patriot Act fixed this, yet people like you want it gone, and Harry Reid even rejoiced when he nearly got it killed.

[Hatfield]

durka durka mohammed jihad.

[JohnnyMack]

We are, since they guy was in court and all. :rolleyes:

That was kinda my point or do I need to put forth that it was a tad tongue in cheek?

[yermom]

i'm not sure what NSA/FBI/CIA talking to each other or searching someone's computer has to do with sitting on someone's chest until they die, but those aren't the parts of the Patriot Act that are disturbing

[OklahomaTuba]

That was kinda my point or do I need to put forth that it was a tad tongue in cheek?Thought you were being serious. :confused:

[sanantoniosooner]

smilies everyone...........smilies........

[OklahomaTuba]

i'm not sure what NSA/FBI/CIA talking to each other or searching someone's computer has to do with sitting on someone's chest until they die, but those aren't the parts of the Patriot Act that are disturbing

Oh You know what I am talkn bout

[StoopTroup]

This is the true face of torture....

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/image1.nsf/ae82f18a8e1b160b852568ba007e7e5e/3017c5e1e85b7e5885256cbe00211770/$FILE/American%20Idol%20Logo%20LR.jpg

[C&CDean]

I currently contract with a guy who was a military intel/interrogator in Vietnam. Funny thing - he facilitates a "practical negotiations" and "interpersonal dynamics" course which is wildly popular.

On more than one occasion, interogatees were dangled by their feet outside a chopper hovering about 300 feet off the ground. Typically, when one guy "slipped," the next guy was more than happy to spill his guts.

It ain't pretty. It ain't for the weak of heart. It ain't for the bleedin' hearts. But it's real none-the-less, and a very neccessary part of information gathering.

Like I said before, he shoulda talked. Or not. Either way, **** him.

[sanantoniosooner]

Sounds like the guy they dropped spilled his guts too.

[Widescreen]

It's too bad he died. But if these types of interrogations prevent the deaths of Americans, I'm fer it. One question I had is how was the guy supposed to answer questions with his mouth covered?

American dude: Where are the secret plans?
Iraqi dude: Mfff. Mmmm. Mmmf.
American dude: Liar!

[Hatfield]

i thought the question posed in the thread was "is suffocating a man to death torture"

are we really to the point where we can't admit the answer is yes.

regardless of the excuses/justifications etc. of that action I think it is a little disturbing that we can't call it what it is

[sanantoniosooner]

i thought the question posed in the thread was "is suffocating a man to death torture"
my son survived the ordeal.

[OklahomaTuba]

Well, this was abuse. No doubt.

But like I said, its war, **** happens when you send in hundreds of thousands of highly trained and armed men and women into a really stressful situation where their life is on the line.

If some of the libz on this board had their way, no doubt we would be seeing our brave men and women that killed someone in war carted off to the world court to be judged as war criminals.

I think the punishment he received was more than just.

[Frozen Sooner]

Are we talking about the thread or about the suffocation?

Thread: Damn straight.

[yermom]

except that this guy is 43 and an officer, and he wasn't in combat

[Widescreen]

Yes, that particular thing is torture. Frankly, after 9/11 I became pro-torture for a period of time because time was of the essence. I can understand why our folks in Iraq would feel the same way given that they're being bombed and shot at daily.

[OklahomaTuba]

except that this guy is 43 and an officer, and he wasn't in combatHe was in a war zone.

[Hatfield]

my son survived the ordeal.

that wasn't torture...that was harmless fun, and if you asked me your son probably deserved it.

[SoonerWood]

If the FBI could have interoggated Mossoui, they might have been able to stop 9/11.

But because they couldn't, the FBI wouldn't even open his computer, which later showed all the details of the attack.

If 9/11 had been prevented, we'd probably be in an entirely new mess on how Bush didn't follow the law to prevent this 'so-called' 9/11 event that the the Bush administration made up.

[OklahomaTuba]

If 9/11 had been prevented, we'd probably be in an entirely new mess on how Bush didn't follow the law to prevent this 'so-called' 9/11 event that the the Bush administration made up.

No doubt.

Liberal FantasyLand at its best.

[Mjcpr]

This thread irritates my vagina.

[picasso]

it's definitely torture.

so is watching MTV.

[Hatfield]

No doubt.

Liberal FantasyLand at its best.

i love how a right leaning poster completely makes up some nonsense...and then you quote it and attribute it to being said by "liberals"

[Frozen Sooner]

i love how a right leaning poster completely makes up some nonsense...and then you quote it and attribute it to being said by "liberals"

Republican fantasy land at it's best.

De Plame, boss!

[SoonerWood]

i love how a right leaning poster completely makes up some nonsense...and then you quote it and attribute it to being said by "liberals"

thanks for making my point

[Harry Beanbag]

This thread irritates my vagina.


Maybe you should try the unscented torture thread.

[Widescreen]

This thread irritates my vagina.
That might explain the fever.

[OklahomaTuba]

i love how a right leaning poster completely makes up some nonsense...and then you quote it and attribute it to being said by "liberals"Yes, how dare I call "made-up nonsense" a fantasy. :rolleyes:

[soonerscuba]

I blame Thomas Jefferson for not writing this **** in the Constitution!!

Constitution was written by committee, with John Adams being the major force behind it. You is thinkin' of the Declaration of Independence.

And yes, it is torture, you would have to be a retard not to see that. Whether it is justified or not is certainly debatable.

[OklahomaTuba]

Constitution was written by committee, with John Adams being the major force behind it. You is thinkin' of the Declaration of Independence.

And yes, it is torture, you would have to be a retard not to see that. Whether it is justified or not is certainly debatable.

Excellent post.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

I guess I forgot the winky thing again, I still blame Jefferson...was he too good to write the Constitution ;)

[TexasLidig8r]

Let's probe a bit deeper shall we?

The Iraqi general who was tortured to death.. now.. was he a legitimate "general" leading Iraqi troops into battle. Was he in uniform? Did he command his troops adhering to the "rules of warfare" generally adhered to by civilized countries? In short, was he a legitimate prisoner of war granted rights by the Geneva Convention?

or...

Was he a "general" only in the sense of the word and was leading a ragtag group of terrorists (insurgents if you must:rolleyes: ) in acts of terrorism? Was he dressed as a civilian? Did he openly flaunt the "rules of warfare"?

Too different scenarios completely..

[proud gonzo]

He was in a war zone.

"in a war zone" does not equal "in combat"

[Hatfield]

Let's probe a bit deeper shall we?

The Iraqi general who was tortured to death.. now.. was he a legitimate "general" leading Iraqi troops into battle. Was he in uniform? Did he command his troops adhering to the "rules of warfare" generally adhered to by civilized countries? In short, was he a legitimate prisoner of war granted rights by the Geneva Convention?

or...

Was he a "general" only in the sense of the word and was leading a ragtag group of terrorists (insurgents if you must:rolleyes: ) in acts of terrorism? Was he dressed as a civilian? Did he openly flaunt the "rules of warfare"?

Too different scenarios completely..

those 2 situations don't really speak to whether the general was tortured, but rather should he be subject to torture.

I personally am not big on torture, because I believe you are going to be subject to a lot of misinformation. (example: I will tell you whatever in the hell you want as long as you put my fingernails back in their proper places) and I think it puts us in a difficult position when we renounce the the acts of others for their use of torture and then do the same thing we condemn others for. mmmm...love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning (to paraphrase)

is torturing someone who shouldn't be tortured under the geneva conventions worse than torturing someone who isn't subject to the geneva conventions...can't believe we have really reached this point of thinking.

[SoonerWood]

Hatfield, suppose for a minute someone has your kids (if you have kids) and the person responsible is in the room with you in handcuffs. He knows where your kids are and they are in immediate danger.

What would you do to save your children?

[mdklatt]

Hatfield, suppose for a minute someone has your kids (if you have kids) and the person responsible is in the room with you in handcuffs. He knows where your kids are and they are in immediate danger.

What would you do to save your children?

People often lie when they're being tortured. The key is to interrogate someobody by making them believe you're going to torture them. Once you cross that line you lose a bargaining chip.

[Hatfield]

I understand where you are going SoonerWood, but I am not my gov't.

me...that guy is in trouble.

but when it is our official policy of our gov't the water becomes much murkier.

i am not saying it is not practical in some cases for torture to be employed just saying there are big picture ramifications.

[SoonerWood]

People often lie when they're being tortured. The key is to interrogate someobody by making them believe you're going to torture them. Once you cross that line you lose a bargaining chip.

lol speaking from experience?

"Ve hav vays ov making you tolk"

But seriously, how do you know?

[SoonerWood]

I understand where you are going SoonerWood, but I am not my gov't.

me...that guy is in trouble.

but when it is our official policy of our gov't the water becomes much murkier.

i am not saying it is not practical in some cases for torture to be employed just saying there are big picture ramifications.

My point is that unless you are there and know what the situation is and what is at stake then how can you be qualified to make any sort of judgement call on how they should proceed?

[C&CDean]

I understand where you are going SoonerWood, but I am not my gov't.

me...that guy is in trouble.

but when it is our official policy of our gov't the water becomes much murkier.

i am not saying it is not practical in some cases for torture to be employed just saying there are big picture ramifications.

Is it the official policy of our gov't? Is it somewhere written in all military people's general orders that "it's perfectly acceptable to tickle some mofo to death if needed to extract info?"

Didn't think so. I would go into my very best Colonol Jessup imitation here, but I'll spare y'all. However, I will say this: The people who whine the most about this stuff, who find it so horrendous, who agonize over some ********** getting tortured to death, who want to hang every American serviceman by his nuts when he's involved in something like this, are the same people who don't mind gorging themselves on the freedom these poor bastards provide for them.

For the third time - the sumbitch shoulda just talked. **** him.

[Hatfield]

dean should i make fun of you now and rant about being too literal?

Soonerwood you can't hold the actions of a private citizen to the same standard as that of our gov't. And as for you qualified comment. I am speaking in generalities not specifics.

Didn't we condemn sadaam for using torture...that we are now using. see where the water becomes muddy.

I also find it humorous that some folks think if you discuss things you are whining about it. juvenile really.

[PrideTrombone]

I'm surprised there hasn't been a Cleveland Steamer reference on this thread.

[C&CDean]

hatfield,

Should I make fun of you now, or save it for your next post?

Was Saddam torturing opposing forces soldiers to glean tactical military information, or his own soccer team for losing a game? Very poor analogy.

When you say "our gov't's official policy" one can only assume you were being "literal." Pardon my "rant."

And if you disagree with me, you're whining. Simple as that. Call it what you want.

[Hatfield]

i would call disagreeing with you....being the voice of reason. :)

and I am sure you can make fun of any post of mine you wish.

[C&CDean]

i would call disagreeing with you....being the voice of heresy. :)

and I am sure it's very easy to make fun of any post of mine you wish.

Fixed.

[DCSooner]

I currently contract with a guy who was a military intel/interrogator in Vietnam. Funny thing - he facilitates a "practical negotiations" and "interpersonal dynamics" course which is wildly popular.

On more than one occasion, interogatees were dangled by their feet outside a chopper hovering about 300 feet off the ground. Typically, when one guy "slipped," the next guy was more than happy to spill his guts.

It ain't pretty. It ain't for the weak of heart. It ain't for the bleedin' hearts. But it's real none-the-less, and a very neccessary part of information gathering.

Like I said before, he shoulda talked. Or not. Either way, **** him.

Howzit knows all about this. Or so he told some Navy Seal at a bar one night.

[Howzit]

Howzit knows all about this. Or so I told some Navy Seal at a bar one night.

Fixed.

chop much?

[Harry Beanbag]

Didn't we condemn sadaam for using torture...that we are now using. see where the water becomes muddy.


Get back to me when we start putting people feet first into wood chippers for our own amusement.



While I'm not a big fan of us torturing and perhaps killing prisoners in custody, I'm also not naive enough to think that it isn't necessary in certain situations. Ordinary citizens like us don't need to know all the details that go into the defense of this country.

[soonerscuba]

While I'm not a big fan of us torturing and perhaps killing prisoners in custody, I'm also not naive enough to think that it isn't necessary in certain situations. Ordinary citizens like us don't need to know all the details that go into the defense of this country.

This is pretty much how I feel, sanctioned torture by privates for the world to see is a terrible idea.

If Special Agent Rooster 1, needs the Fox in the Hen House, perhaps through a warehouse and a tire iron in the Balkans, then I don't have a problem with it. In my opinion we have gotten sloppy, and set ourselves back.

[mdklatt]

While I'm not a big fan of us torturing and perhaps killing prisoners in custody, I'm also not naive enough to think that it isn't necessary in certain situations. Ordinary citizens like us don't need to know all the details that go into the defense of this country.

If we're going to accept torturing prisoners as okay then we can no longer pull out the righteous indignation card when our own soldiers get tortured. And I'm fine with that. We can't hold ourseleves to a lesser standard than the enemy.