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Jerk
1/22/2006, 12:49 PM
Reuters carried story that France was prepared to retaliate against any nation which launched a terrorist attack upon it with nuclear weapons.

France said on Thursday it would be ready to use nuclear weapons against any state that carried out a terrorist attack against it, reaffirming the need for its nuclear deterrent. Deflecting criticism of France’s costly nuclear arms program, President Jacques Chirac said security came at a price and France must be able to hit back hard at a hostile state’s centers of power and its “capacity to act.”

He said there was no change in France’s overall policy, which rules out the use of nuclear weapons in a military conflict. But his speech pointed to a change of emphasis to underline the growing threat France perceives from terrorism. “The leaders of states who would use terrorist means against us, as well as those who would consider using in one way or another weapons of mass destruction, must understand that they would lay themselves open to a firm and adapted response on our part,” Chirac said during a visit to a nuclear submarine base in northwestern France.

The obvious target of the warning was Iran. But how effective is a conventional deterrent against a state which might sponsor terrorist proxies armed with nuclear weapons? At a discussion at the Confederate Yankee one commenter said:

The fear is not that Iran would attack us, but that they would produce countless small nuclear devices and turn them over to the terrorists whom they support. These would then be smuggled into many major cities in all the western nations for detonation.

The terrorist "suitcase nuclear weapon" is the nightmare scenario often invoked to explain why such weapons should never be allowed to fall into the hands of leaders like President Ahmadinejad. It was this fear which provided much of the rationale for launching Operation Iraqi Freedom. But a closer examination of the suitcase nuke problem suggests that this method of delivery has certain limitations. Let's begin a thought experiment by considering the number of suitcase nukes that would be required to destroy a country like France or the United States.

The National Resources Defense Council (NRDC), a somewhat left of center think tank, produced a very respectable model of how many nuclear weapons would be required to inflict damage to the point of diminishing returns, a concept accepted by Robert McNamara at the height of the Cold War. This inflection point is known as the "knee" and occurred where around 25% of the target population was killed. The NRDC recalculated the numbers for the year 1999 with these results; which are probably correct at least to order of magnitude.



Country 1999 population 25% of population No of 375 kt warheads needed to threaten 25% of the population
United States
258,833,000
64,708,250
124

Canada
28,402,320
7,100,580
11

United Kingdom
56,420,180
14,105,045
19

France
57,757,060
14,439,265
25

Germany
81,436,300
20,359,075
33

Italy
57,908,880
14,477,220
21

Spain
39,267,780
9,816,945
20

All NATO Member Countries
754,933,329
188,730,000
300

Russia
151,827,600
37,956,300
51

China
1,281,008,318
320,252,079
368

North Korea
22,034,990
5,508,747
4

Iran
64,193,450
16,048,363
10

Iraq
20,941,720
5,235,430
4

Syria
14,045,470
3,511,368
2

Libya
5,245,515
1,311,329
2


According to these figures it will take about 150 nukes to 'destroy' the fabric and cohesion of the United States and about 30 to do the same to France. Note that inflicting this damage will not have any substantial effect the US ability to perform an immediate counterstrike with thousands of nuclear warheads because these are deployed in hardened facilities or on submerged platforms which would survive a paltry (by Cold War standards) 150 warhead strike. But this number would be enough to finish the target nation as cohesive society for decades.

The problem with suitcase nukes is maintaining command and control over them. Any suitcase nuke which could be armed and detonated by its possessor (protected only by a combination detonator just like the movies) would have serious defects as a weapon. This method delegates so much command and control over the weapon to the possessor that it is effectively "his". In our thought experiment, imagine a rogue state providing such weapons to 150 terrorist teams for use against the United States. There would be no assurance that once deployed these weapons would not be stolen or used for unintended purposes. It would be possible for a rogue team to sell the weapon to the highest bidder, perhaps a rival rogue state looking for such devices. It would not be impossible for one of the teams to turn against its masters and use it against them. A team with a suitcase nuke might divert to Switzerland where they could demand the payment of a few billion dollars in exchange for not blowing up Zurich. A suitcase weapon could be captured by the CIA or the Mossad and reimported into the rogue state where it could be detonated against targets who could hardly admit its true provenance. If the teams belonged to rival political terrorist organizations they could be used against each other. Clearly, releasing a large number of suitcase nuclear weapons without positive command and control would be less than ideal and probably disastrous for the wielder.

The most probable workaround to the problem would be to deploy these weapons at a very low rate by sending them out one trusted team at a time. In that way the weapon would be used within a short period and watched, probably by a large number of mutually counterchecking personnel, every step of the way. One nuke to Paris. Boom. One nuke to New York. Boom. The problem with solving the control problem by slowing down the rate of attack is apparent from the table above. One nuke in Paris or New York will be grossly insufficient to finish the infidel enemy but quite sufficient to provoke a massive response. Once the fissile traces are identified ten thousand warheads will be headed back the other way.

The other obvious possibility is to deploy a large number of suitcase nukes in a componentized configuration so that it requires the assembly of several teams, each with part of the requisite firing information or componentry to activate the device. (This is conceptually similar to the two key system on boomers) For example, Iran could deploy 450 teams -- three teams to activate a suitcase bomb -- with the intent of controlling 150 devices targeted at the United States. Unfortunately a force of this size could hardly remain covert for any length of time. The teams security would rapidly "deteriorate" in a deployed environment and would almost certainly be discovered before long. Once discovered the game would be up. The weapons would no longer be deniable and their use would be open belligerency. The suitcase weapons would have no advantage to nuclear bombs delivered by the air force of the rogue nation.

Which brings us back to France. Perhaps the French have calculated that nuclear deniability is ultimately unattainable and are conveying to President Ahmadinejad that 'if you nuke us, you die'.

bigdsooner
1/22/2006, 12:57 PM
North Korea
22,034,990
5,508,747
4

Iran
64,193,450
16,048,363
10

Iraq
20,941,720
5,235,430
4

Syria
14,045,470
3,511,368
2

Libya
5,245,515
1,311,329
2

22 nukes to eliminate most of the worlds problems...just something to think about;)

Flagstaffsooner
1/22/2006, 01:04 PM
texass
20,851,820
5,212,925
10

Okla-homey
1/22/2006, 02:09 PM
IMHO, having been in the nuke weapons biz back in the day (delivery, not design) a couple of high-altitude airbursts over the east coast commercial centers would be enough to throw us for a loop for a long time.

See, there's this thingy called an "electro-magnetic pulse" (EMP) that emanates from nuclear detonations. It fries integrated circuitry which is not shielded. Think about it.

This country needs a missile defense system. The fact that we don't will be the next big "why did the governement fail to protect us when they had the chance?" scenario which will make the NOLA folks carping about inadequately designed levees look like a minor dust-up in comparison.

VeeJay
1/22/2006, 03:29 PM
I'd like a nice big bowl of banana pudding.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
1/22/2006, 03:41 PM
texass
20,851,820
5,212,925
10:eek: Word!...Stoolwater
30,000
7500
1 lunchpail nuke:eddie:

mdklatt
1/22/2006, 03:47 PM
:eek: Word!...Stoolwater
30,000
7500
1 lunchpail nuke:eddie:

Even better, the prevailing upper level winds would dump the fallout on Tulsa. :D

mdklatt
1/22/2006, 03:53 PM
This country needs a missile defense system.

Who is going to launch an ICBM at us in the forseeable future? It seems like the technology for a missile defense system is so expensive right now that the money would be better spent on more immediate threats. For the EMP scenario you described all you need is a suitcase nuke and a terrorist who can fly (and we know those exist).

bigdsooner
1/22/2006, 04:21 PM
:eek: Word!...Stoolwater
30,000
7500
1 lunchpail nuke:eddie:

:eek: :D lunchpail nuke

Okla-homey
1/22/2006, 04:38 PM
Who is going to launch an ICBM at us in the forseeable future? It seems like the technology for a missile defense system is so expensive right now that the money would be better spent on more immediate threats. For the EMP scenario you described all you need is a suitcase nuke and a terrorist who can fly (and we know those exist).

Let me explain, we can defend against air-breathing threats which try to enter US airspace. We have caps up and airborne at all times now.

What we don't have is the ability to intercept missiles. I'm not talking accurate ICBM's. I'm talking something which is actually an area weapon like a Scud. If the bad guys are able to fire a nuke missile that can get over NYC plus or minus a couple hundred miles, and have it pop in the stratosphere, we're talking electronic and electrical disruption on the order of what you saw happen in that recent "War of the Worlds" flick.

I think we need missile defense. We can do it. We put a man on the moon in 1969 just for grins and giggles and spent a ton of money doing it. There is a great deal at stake and we should be willing to drop a few hundred billion to do it. IMHO, defense is the first and most important responsibility of government. Everything else is at best secondary. Adequate defenses make every other role of government possible. Today in America, no compooters = utter chaos.

Desert Sapper
1/22/2006, 04:45 PM
The point of the 'backpack nuke' for a terrorist organization is not so much about bringing the country to its knees a la 124 375 kt warheads, presumably killing some 64M people. Think about what a strike on the WTC was capable of, while killing substantially less than that. It isn't how many people you kill, it's how you do it, where you do it, and why you do it that count. People are infinitely afraid of being nuked. Terror is relative and qualitative, not quantitative.

StoopTroup
1/22/2006, 06:54 PM
Let me explain, we can defend against air-breathing threats which try to enter US airspace. We have caps up and airborne at all times now.

What we don't have is the ability to intercept missiles. I'm not talking accurate ICBM's. I'm talking something which is actually an area weapon like a Scud. If the bad guys are able to fire a nuke missile that can get over NYC plus or minus a couple hundred miles, and have it pop in the stratosphere, we're talking electronic and electrical disruption on the order of what you saw happen in that recent "War of the Worlds" flick.

I think we need missile defense. We can do it. We put a man on the moon in 1969 just for grins and giggles and spent a ton of money doing it. There is a great deal at stake and we should be willing to drop a few hundred billion to do it. IMHO, defense is the first and most important responsibility of government. Everything else is at best secondary. Adequate defenses make every other role of government possible. Today in America, no compooters = utter chaos.
We'd be on Mars right now if it wasn't for this war on terror thingy. ;)

MojoRisen
1/22/2006, 07:15 PM
We have missile defense, just need to turn it on.

OUinFLA
1/22/2006, 08:34 PM
We'd be on Mars right now if it wasn't for this war on terror thingy. ;)


dOleMite is there regularly.
:D

soonerbrat
1/22/2006, 09:17 PM
I'd like a nice big bowl of banana pudding.


here ya go

http://www.solaeliving.com/images/recipe/bananapudding_170x194.jpg

OU-HSV
1/22/2006, 09:26 PM
Reuters carried story that France was prepared to retaliate......
This was the part of your post that I find most amusing..like this is supposed to scare terrorists.

SoonerWood
1/22/2006, 11:39 PM
How did they choose to go with 375kt for the yield?

A good line of defense against the EMP portion is more hardened electronics for the masses. The military uses it, and I would imagine (or hope, at least) that key civilian locations use it, keeping our country's backbone going in a SHTF situation. Someone just needs to invent a way to make it inexpensive enough so us regular people can harden things like our cars, HAM radios, generators, etc.

mdklatt
1/23/2006, 10:48 AM
Let me explain, we can defend against air-breathing threats which try to enter US airspace. We have caps up and airborne at all times now.


I didn't mean to imply that we should spend more money on traditional air defense; yes, we've got that covered.* Surface-based threats are a more realistic threat and a higher funding priority right now. How would somebody get a shorter range weapon like a SCUD over NYC? I wonder if you could launch one from a ship at sea?


*Tangential Rant: We have the technical capability to defend US cities from air attack, but as usual the government is all *******s and elbows. I just read an interview with the two pilots who flew right over Washington a few months ago in a Cessna 150. They were first intercepted by a Blackhawk helicopter, which gave them a couple of frequencies to communicate on. However, the helicopter itself was unable to respond on those frequencies due to a radio malfunction. Without knowing what to do, the Cessna pilots held their last course and eventually ended up over the Capitol. Finally somebody was able to communicate with them and tell them where to go. The Cessna pilots screwed up big time, but the situation could have been made a whole lot worse because of a broken radio on the government aircraft.