Questions on Martin Luther King

[TexasLidig8r]

So, as we drove into work today on roads substantially reduced of traffic because of the holiday today, I wonder... why do we have a nationally recognized holiday named in honor of Martin Luther King?

To approach MLK and say his life, while noble in some aspects, is not deserving of national recognition, immediately invites charges of RACISM!!! (that and the fact that I like to stir it up from time to time)

Unquestionably, his "I Have Dream" speech is stirring and the messages in said speech are noble and to a certain extent today, remained not completely fulfilled.

Yes.. this article. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/epstein9.html goes into the rumors (and facts) surrounding his numerous adulterous affairs, close association with communists and out of the mainstream political views.

This article substantiates some.. but not others ... http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/m/mlk.htm

His alleged plagiarism seems to have really struck some who are critical of MLK ... http://www.cycad.com/cgi-bin/pinc/apr2000/books/gt_plagiarism.html

Finally, the last years of his life seemingly have been glossed over, wherein King became a bit more militaristic in his vision and views on America's foreign policy. http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2269

The end question is.. should we be honoring a man who in his time, had the courage to speak out for civil rights but whose own life and political and personal views were questionable?

[Pieces Hit]

Keep this up and you're gonna blow it for Hillary.

[jk the sooner fan]

we've had lots of presidents that had adulterous affairs.......

[mdklatt]

So, as we drove into work today on roads substantially reduced of traffic because of the holiday today, I wonder... why do we have a nationally recognized holiday named in honor of Martin Luther King?



I think Chris Rock summed it up best: "You've got to be racist as hell to not want a day off."

:D

[KABOOKIE]

I learnt from my time in the South, that if you don't want to take day off for MLK you can take it off to honor Robert E. Lee.

If you don't believe me, ask anyone from southern Gerogia what today is.......Robert E. Lee day.

[jk the sooner fan]

i agree that in history there are alot of others more deserving, that we never recognized with a holiday....however at that point in time, and where we were at with race relations, i understand the need for the holiday

if you're seriously calling today "robert e. lee day".......wow....

[pb4ou]

How about a Ted Kennedy day. We can all get drunk.

[Mjcpr]

How about a Ted Kennedy day. We can all get drunk.

That's just rolled into St Patrick's Day.

[soonerscuba]

Well, from an honest assessment of personal lives as a relation to federal holidays, that would pretty much narrow it down to Christmas.

I think MLK was important because at very least he represented a more peaceful approach than the black nationalists, yes he did associate with some unseemly elements, but as a man of the church, he would no doubt have some serious issues with the social construction side of being a commie.

And lastly to put it bluntly, if a monster like Columbus gets his own day, there is no reason for MLK not to.

[OU Adonis]

And lastly to put it bluntly, if a monster like Columbus gets his own day, there is no reason for MLK not to.

You've got to be kidding, right?

[Pieces Hit]

We should get to choose holidays for people we like.

I vote for Judge Judy Day.

[Veritas]

You've got to be kidding, right?
Oh, I'm sure he's serious. :rolleyes:

I'm driving to work and on news radio they're talking about how statistically black people are more likely to celebrate and recognize MLK Day than white people (Seriously, somebody did a study on this? What next, a study to see if ice is cold?).

This is immediately followed by two Lincoln crime reports, one of a black kid stabbing a 70 year old man and a woman being assualted by two black men.

WTF.

[DCSooner]

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b117/ashes0712/damn.jpg

[OU Adonis]

Oh, I'm sure he's serious. :rolleyes:



Well Columbus was no saint, and did do some very bad things to native peoples, but it wasn't out of context for the time he lived in. While some may argue that the Americas would of been found (or again if you count the vikings)by europeans regardless of him, you got to consider him in the top 10 important people in American History.

[Pieces Hit]

Ted Nugent never even got in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

There is no justice.

[soonerscuba]

I never said he wasn't important, or shouldn't have his own day. I just think he committed genocide and started the Atlantic slave trade. To put it best I would say he is directly responsible for thousands of death, and indirectly for millions. Once again, I really can see the value of what he did, but the myth and reality of what who Columbus was and what he did are vastly different.

[Ike]

those are legit questions lid, and I'll pose a possible answer to only the last.

Regardless of his own character flaws, or personal politics not related to the civil rights movement, MLK was undoubtedly the most influential person in the civil rights movement. He was a big part of a major change in this country that was for the better. That alone, in my opinion, is deserving of the recognition he gets today.

There is no such thing anymore as a person without some questionable political views. somebody is gonna think 'that ain't right' about just about anything that an influential person may espouse. MLK spoke out about a lot of things not so closely related to civil rights later in his career, and he may or may not have been wrong...but in this country we hold dear that one has every right to do so, and that an important part of the political process is to hear the side that we do not nessecarily want to hear because just maybe, there may be some merit to it. If in the end we do not agree, we are still the better for having heard the arguments of the other side. In that respect, his questionable political and personal views do not take away from the recognition he deserves as the father of the civil rights movement.

as to his character flaws, well, we all have those too. Washington had them. Lincoln had them. Jefferson had them. The notion that we need national heroes that are somehow more than human has died in this country. If thats for better or worse, well, I'll let you decide. But this country has time and again embraced as heroes men who despite their flaws or questionable views have done something great that has effected positive change throughout the country. I think MLK certainly fits that criteria.

Regardless of what you think of the man that MLK was, its hard to deny that he was a big part of effecting one of the biggest changes for the better in this country over the last century.

[Taxman71]

The MLK Holiday has less to do with MLK and more to do with civil rights in general. MLK is the most recognizable and likable figure from the civil rights era and became a hero in death. While the holiday bears his name and birthday, it is really honoring everyone supporting civil rights and their accomplishments. If they called it "Civil Rights Day", it would never pass as a holiday. However, MLK was a beloved person. It's kind of like making President's Day in between the birthdays of Washington and Lincoln, although Clinton, Nixon, etc. also served in that role.

[proud gonzo]

But that's the American ideal--declaring national holidays when we feel guilty about things. :D

[yermom]

seems like they could use someone more like MLK now... the people that followed him don't quite seem to have their hearts in the same place

of course back in the 60's all you had to do to make news was to sit down at a lunch counter

[Taxman71]

There is a phenomena when a famous person dies relatively young. They are forever remembered in their prime and became more famous than if they had lived. If James Dean, Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, Elvis etc. had survived, would they be as revered today or would they be punchlines in their old age?

[Desert Sapper]

He was important to the overall progress of the Civil Rights movement, which if nothing else, makes it tolerable for me to live in Georgia right now. It sure would suck if I couldn't even go to lunch with my friends because of their dark complexion. Who gives a crap about his personal life? Everybody but Jesus would be unacceptable if their personal lives took center stage.

[Desert Sapper]

seems like they could use someone more like MLK now... the people that followed him don't quite seem to have their hearts in the same place

I'm with you 100% on that one...Jackson/Farakhan/Sharpton just ain't the same as the dudes whose shoes they filled.

[GrapevineSooner]

His character flaws could be overlooked in this instance because they did not contradict any of his actions in fighting for civil rights back the in the 60's.

Now let's say he entered into a partnership with one of the restaurant owners in the south who were denying service to black patrons, then these flaws would be relevant.

As it where, his anti-war views had nothing do with his views on civil rights.

[yermom]

There is a phenomena when a famous person dies relatively young. They are forever remembered in their prime and became more famous than if they had lived. If James Dean, Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, Elvis etc. had survived, would they be as revered today or would they be punchlines in their old age?

this is probably why killing him was the worst thing they could have done to stop him.

[Pieces Hit]

And then there was Ali.

Cosell was a white devil.

http://www.printsandphotos.com/Merchant2/images/thumbnail/7/7017.jpg

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

How about a Ted Kennedy day. We can all get drunk, call SCOTUS nominees racists, and go drown some poor lady in a canal.Fixed

[jdsooner]

Maybe we should change it to Oprah Winfrey Day?!:rolleyes:

[OklahomaTuba]

I just wanted to say that I really don't give a ****.

[Taxman71]

this is probably why killing him was the worst thing they could have done to stop him.

Reminds me of Obi Won's warning to Darth Vader Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can imagine..

[Scott D]

So, as we drove into work today on roads substantially reduced of traffic because of the holiday today, I wonder... why do we have a nationally recognized holiday named in honor of Martin Luther King?

Nobel Prize winner, man of the cloth, a man whom became martyred by his assassination?


To approach MLK and say his life, while noble in some aspects, is not deserving of national recognition, immediately invites charges of RACISM!!! (that and the fact that I like to stir it up from time to time)

And 'Flag Day' is relevant how? Columbus Day is relevant how?


Unquestionably, his "I Have Dream" speech is stirring and the messages in said speech are noble and to a certain extent today, remained not completely fulfilled.

Some would say it's far from fulfilled.


Yes.. this article. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/epstein9.html goes into the rumors (and facts) surrounding his numerous adulterous affairs, close association with communists and out of the mainstream political views.

How much information from that article was based upon FBI files? Hoover kept files on everyone, and dug as deep as he could, to allegedly blackmail public figures if he needed to.


This article substantiates some.. but not others ... http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/m/mlk.htm

His alleged plagiarism seems to have really struck some who are critical of MLK ... http://www.cycad.com/cgi-bin/pinc/apr2000/books/gt_plagiarism.html

Like he would have been the first, or last public speaker to engage in some form of plagarism.


Finally, the last years of his life seemingly have been glossed over, wherein King became a bit more militaristic in his vision and views on America's foreign policy. http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2269

It was said by people with a little bit more know in Dr. King's inner circle, that he was worn down with the absolute 'Non-Violence' stance, and had been increasingly softening his stance up through the time of his death. Regardless, on the grander scale he was a man of peace, and as a man of God, his aversion to international war and foreign policy is easily understandable.

Keep in mind that this was also the Vietnam Conflict era, and African-Americans were still being considered to be second class citizens in most all of the country via segregation, however we were considered to be plenty full first class citizens when it came to being drafted and fighting in Vietnam.

King wasn't the only African-American leader of that era whom felt that in part the US Foreign Policy and conflicts were an attempt to deflect the international eye away from it's own shoddy treatment of the rights of portions of it's own population.


The end question is.. should we be honoring a man who in his time, had the courage to speak out for civil rights but whose own life and political and personal views were questionable?

We honor Lincoln and Washington, and their lives were not the lives of saints 100% of the time. To a lesser degree we honor Columbus, whom was nowhere near the 'good man' we had been led to believe years ago in Elementary School.

I might suggest that you try reading "An American Death" by Gerold Frank

[TexasLidig8r]

Scott D...

I have read it.. a good book.

The questions were meant to provoke thought on this day... and do not reflect my own views.

So, from that perspective.. mission accomplished.

The one part of your posting I will question is the "man of the cloth - martyr" statement.

I do not feel the rush to make a saint of the man.
An eloquent spokesman for a generation with courage and conviction.. yes.. absolutely. But, let's leave the sainthood to true saints.

[Okla-homey]

When are we hillbillies gonna learn Lid does this on purpose. From time to time he tosses a grenade in like this, then stands back and watches the sparks fly.

It's his thing.;)

[afs]

I never said he wasn't important, or shouldn't have his own day. I just think he committed genocide and started the Atlantic slave trade. To put it best I would say he is directly responsible for thousands of death, and indirectly for millions. Once again, I really can see the value of what he did, but the myth and reality of what who Columbus was and what he did are vastly different.

so without Columbus we wouldn't have MLK day?

[Soonrboy]

so without Columbus we wouldn't have MLK day?


How do you figure that?

[GDC]

Geez, no wonder players like Billy Sims still didn't feel comfortable going to UT in the mid-70's.

[GDC]

When are we hillbillies gonna learn Lid does this on purpose. From time to time he tosses a grenade in like this, then stands back and watches the sparks fly.

It's his thing.;)

And if that's not bad enough he's permitted to badger, bait, and berate Sooners on a Sooner board.:mad:

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Oooo, wouldn't touch this, but Lid you're right. He wasn't a very "christian" guy and he cheated in school. But when a group needs to venerate someone, these things get looked over. Plus we're racists if we don't idolize him as the libs would like us all to...

I'm for that shock jock (conservative talk person - not Rush). The libs have taken all the President's holidays from us and the only "named" holiday is MLK. He wants to call it National Diversity Holiday or National Ethnic Tolerance Holiday, or bring back Washington and Lincoln Bday...

[jk the sooner fan]

there are thousands of dead vets who would take issue with the "flag day" comment.....and millions more that arent dead

find something else to compare with Dr King's holiday........he was a man of the cloth? really......well i guess not much has changed since then with men of the cloth, seems alot of them like to dabble in adultery

[Scott D]

I won't back down from my comparison regardless of what anyone dead or alive thinks of it. Flag Day has nothing to do with veterans alive or dead, period. I'm not calling it a bogus holiday by any means, but most people don't even know what the day exists for.

THA's response was about what I expected a reply from him would be...a bit disappointed that he didn't throw the hispanic pedophile card into his reply, but I'm sure everyone will survive.

Nobody has ever said that everyone has to celebrate it....whether you agreed with the man's politics or not, his accomplishments shouldn't be discarded as if they never existed. Quite honestly I wouldn't even say he was the most charismatic or influential African-American leader, however he was the most acceptable to the majority of the country at the time in comparison to the 'alternatives'.

afs, I think scuba's point, and I agree with it actually is that if one to a degree belittles celebrating MLK's birthday, but however is supportive of the celebration of Columbus' birthday it's quite silly as Columbus didn't discover North America, he didn't really do anything that benefitted humanity, he didn't exactly do anything he set out to accomplish, and to be quite frank he was basically a total failure. I'm sure the natives of the Dominican Republic or Haiti don't celebrate his birth, and that was the land he actually came to.

As for the adultery issue that so many people want to keep sticking on....last I checked it's not like the Presidents of this country over the entire time of the position were always faithful to their wives.

[jk the sooner fan]

i dont know of a single person that "celebrates" columbus day......its a day off for teachers, bankers and federal govt workers.....

seriously, who here knows of anybody that actually "celebrates" columbus day?

flag day isnt a veterans holiday, but many have died for what the day represents......the flag is symbolic of much more

my first response in this thread was about presidents and their unfaithfulness to their wives........my adultery comment was directed at your identifying him as a "man of the cloth"

he was definitely the face of the civil rights movement, and definitely deserving of recognition for it......but he's no saint and should not be remembered as one....i'd have preferred the holiday to have been called "civil rights day"....then the school kids doing projects could have a larger scope of history to remember and celebrate

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Scott D. you have me soooo wrong...What I rail against is the PC attitude that has taken over America. While I have great respect for MLK and what he accomplished, I also see that he had his flaws. As a citizen and such, I would have no problems with his peccadillos, however, as a man of the cloth and a religious figure, I think they are open to discussion. I have many A-A friends who also have problems with following a herd mentality and not reviewing a person's character or their work deeds.

Oh, BTW, a whitey got arrested for pedophilia in Houston over the weekend. I duly noted it. Also, Ch. 2 was getting CNBC time for their sting expose' on pedophiles. Some, known personalities in Houston.

JK, them folks up in the Northeast would beg to differ about not celebrating Columbus Day. It has become a typically regional holiday. Can't think of anywhere it is celebrated like it is in NE. Though I don't know why we don't celebrate Leif Ericson Day in honor of the true discoverer of North America and to honor all of Norwegian heritage...

[jk the sooner fan]

i lived in NJ for two years and dont remember anybody doing anything......i could be wrong...

[TheHumanAlphabet]

It sure was celebrated in Conn. when I lived there, parades and all...

[Okla-homey]

I have been reluctant to weigh in here, but I think it is worth mentioning something I believe is relevant to these issues posed by our esteemed texass colleague.

Simply put, all our great American heroes were human, therefore they were all flawed. For example, the two guys who are pretty tied in my mind as the greatest Americans of the 18th century are Washington and Jefferson.

We tend to put these guys up on pedestals and pretend they shiit marble or something.

Both owned slaves. We believe Washington probably ran around on his wife Martha. Also, Washington was probably a bit of an opportunist when he married the widowed Martha. She was older, rather dumpy and not much of catch for the dashing George, except for one thing, she was one of the very richest women in Virginia. Remember, Mt Vernon was her place. He was also extremely aggresive in terms of his habit of self-promotion. In fact, many of his peers couldn't stand to be in the same room with him for that reason.

Jefferson probably slept with some of the women who were his property, especially Sally Hemmings with whom he sired children he did not claim. He also was a p1ss poor businessman who died practically penniless because he blew so much on his hobbies. Like Washington, neither did Jefferson manumit his slaves on his death, but instead, his will transferred them as part of the estate to his heirs.

None of this is any reason to blast either of those cats off Mt Rushmore or take their mugs off the money. Their contributions to American history and life far outweigh their personal flaws, kinks and quirks.

Similarly, MLK ran around on his wife and plagiarized some speeches and his doctoral thesis. In the overall scheme of things, he's still deserving of respect and reverence for what he accomplished. Had he not come along, we could have had a flippin' race war that would have resulted in a lot of innocent people of both races being hurt or killed. He taught a peaceful path of civil disobedience per Ghandi's example and largely accomplished his goals for his people. That's pretty cool. I also have no problem with setting aside a day each year to respect his legacy and dream.

That's all I have to say about that.

[XingTheRubicon]

MLK stated at one time that his most important influence was Gandhi.

and he did this...

Graduated from Morehouse College
Receives Doctorate of Philosophy in Systematic Theology from Boston U in '55
Travels to India to study Gandhi's philosophy of non violence
Goes to jail for 4 months for sitting in a restaurant and on and on...

He received countless death threats and 2 seperate homes were bombed and burned to the ground. He was even stoned by other blacks (muslims) in New York.

Through all of this, he continued to march toward the fray. With the deaths of JFK, Medgar Evers, Malcolm X, church bombings (just in case he was there) he was still unflappable.

I'm sure most of you (that are running him down) would handle what he went through with more nobility and courage. Almost 100% sure.

[Desert Sapper]

i lived in NJ for two years and dont remember anybody doing anything......i could be wrong...

Last time I checked, Jersey ain't New England (MA, RI, CT, VT, NH, ME). I could be wrong...;)

[TUSooner]

And lastly to put it like I was programmed to do by revisioninst, deconstructionist historians, if a monster like Columbus gets his own day, there is no reason for MLK not to.

Fixed. Columbus was brave, adventurous man with brains, guts, and nerve whose work benefited more people, including, you, soonerscuba, than it hurt (though many were hurt). To call him a monster demonstrates an indoctrination into a view of the world where nobody should do anything because something might change and somebody might get hurt. and then the whiny, handwringing, never-did-squat intelligentsia would get all upset. A prof I had called it "reading history backwards" and it's intellectually dishonest and arrogant.

ML King should be honored for what his leadership accomplished - a massive, irreversible breakthrough on the bumpy road to equality for all - and not denigrated for his human failings or the collateral damage that resulted from the civil rights movement.

I do agree that if we applied lidig8r's criteria for holidays, we would not have many days off.

[TexasLidig8r]

)
I'm sure most of you (that are running him down) would handle what he went through with more nobility and courage. Almost 100% sure.

I don't think it was a matter of running him down at all. In fact, to try to minimize his accomplishments or to recognize him as anything but a voice for a generation, a man of courage and conviction and of great eloquence would be very short sighted.

But, let's leave the sainthood (for those of you who believe in such thing) to the saints...

Our flaws and defects make up part of our tapestry of life. Those who can rise above those flaws and excel in spite of, those flaws are the ones to be admired.

[GDC]

This thread sucks.

[Desert Sapper]

Our flaws and defects make up part of our tapestry of life. Those who can rise above those flaws and excel in spite of, those flaws are the ones to be admired.

I agree, but that statement provides an even greater testament to the need to recognize such an admirable 'voice of a generation'. He is an icon of the civil rights movement, representing the positive progress that resulted from it. His violent death, like JFKs and Medgar Evars' before him, martyred him to his cause and made him more symbolic in death than life. His accomplishments (and even his death) forced our country to adapt to progress. Whether willingly or not, he did that for us. Acknowledging that we need a day to recognize his accomplishments in non-violent demonstration and in the civil rights movement itself is the very least that we as a society should do for him.

[GDC]

White bread ambulance chasing whorn comes to Sooner board to question MLK's ethics, morals, motivations, and the day that honors him. Nice.