Will 'choice' improve schools for children?

[MamaMia]

I watched this weeks 20/20 and found it very interesting. Here is a link to the 20/20 site, which includes alot of information on that particular subject.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/?CMP=yahoo_bcast

[Mjcpr]

I watched this weeks 20/20 and found it very interesting. Here is a link to the 20/20 site, which includes alot of information on that particular subject.

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60081

:)

[MamaMia]

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60081

:)
Thanks for catching me up. :D

[Mjcpr]

Thanks for feeling me up. :D

Well, I'm kinda bored. There's a thread about that too.


;):D

[soonerjoker]

i saw one woman on there that when told a certain school was spending 10k per yr. per kid said something like "well the should spend as much as 30k if
that's what it takes for their education" (not a close quote)

some parents don't seem to realize that the parents are also very important to their kid's learning.

not sure if i made a point.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

There's no better way being discussed that forces PS to be competitive.

[Ike]

the question in the thread title itself is a verrrry tricky one, because behind it are a whole host of unintended consequences.

school choice has been tried before and is in place in a few areas...its interesting to look at what the data have to say about these places....

as an example, I give to you the Chicago Public School system. They have had school choice of a sorts since 1980. It is the policy of CPS that any incomming freshman can apply to attend any high school in Chicago. they have a choice of over 60 some odd high schools right then and there. but only sort of. some schools, naturally, (the ones with the best test scores and graduation rates) became innundated with requests and just did not have the capacity to fill all of those requests. to adress this problem, CPS instituted a lottery, so as to be equitable to all, so that if you get the luck of the draw, you got to go to the HS you applied for, and if you didn't you had to stay in your neighborhood school.

the 25 years of data with this system shows something that is rather interesting. The students who did switch schools overall did better than the students that opted not to switch, but thats not the real story. the real story is that the students that WON the lottery did NO BETTER than the students that LOST the lottery, indicating that the real indicator of a kids success in this system was his or her willingness to change schools...not whether or not he/she actually did change schools. oh, and across the board, schools around the district continued to test at the same levels they tested at before this system was implemented...

there was one group of students that did benifit from this though. students who applied and attended technical high schools and career academies saw dramatic improvement in their test scores and graduation rates compared to kids that tested at similar levels who stayed in HS. these were mostly struggling students who found it useful to learn job-oriented skills.

*Information paraphrased from the book "Freakonomics" by Levitt and Dubner

[Okla-homey]

Speaking just for my family, school choice most definitely improved my kids education because we chose not to send her to the crappy government-run schools where we lived.

As an aside, when she started first grade, we lived in Dayton, OH. A bunch of concerned parents had prevailed in a lawsuit to require the school district to bus their kids to their privately run schools aboard the district's public school busses...which was sweet! They won on the theory that they were paying state and local taxes and they ought to get some return on their tax investment in public education, particularly since their kids were'nt taking up space and consuming resources in the public schools.

Unfortunately, we never encountered that anywhere else we lived.:(

I wonder if that would fly here in OK?

[85Sooner]

aBSOLUTELY as long as by choice I can apply the tax money I pay to sending my kids to the school of my choice public or private.

[Okla-homey]

aBSOLUTELY as long as by choice I can apply the tax money I pay to sending my kids to the school of my choice public or private.

Get with it man! That's the form of "school choice" that sends teachers unions and the NEA into a quivering mass of mouth-foaming banshees because it would force them to become competitive with the private sector and is therefore inherently elitist, racist and kid-hating. ;)

[BajaOklahoma]

Ummmmm, private schools choose who they will accept. Very few in our area take specials needs children - those children who are most expensive to educate.
Public schools must accept anyone who lives in their boundary area. Period.

Homey, I would also say that your example really shows the impact that parents who make education a priority have on their child's education.
Teachers will tell you that a child with a supportive parent will almost always do better in any setting.

[85Sooner]

Get with it man! That's the form of "school choice" that sends teachers unions and the NEA into a quivering mass of mouth-foaming banshees because it would force them to become competitive with the private sector and is therefore inherently elitist, racist and kid-hating. ;)


Yeah, These so called educators don't seem to get it, no wonder?

[Soonrboy]

If you want to ruin private school, start giving them government money. Oklahoma has open transfers until Feb. 1. After that, you are locked in where to go. There are choices. My son is attending a magnet school next year. My daughter will probably go in 3 years.

I love accepting transfer students in my school Because if they act up, or make bad grades, all I have to do is revoke their transfer. How about that.

School choice will make a bigger division between the haves and have nots...I've read nothing that keeps me from believing this.

[Soonrboy]

Ummmmm, private schools choose who they will accept. Very few in our area take specials needs children - those children who are most expensive to educate.
Public schools must accept anyone who lives in their boundary area. Period.

Homey, I would also say that your example really shows the impact that parents who make education a priority have on their child's education.
Teachers will tell you that a child with a supportive parent will almost always do better in any setting.


If a private school does take a special needs child, the public school district is required to provide the services, no matter the cost of those services. So a private school doesn't have to hire a speech therapists, the public school district sends one into the schools...same with a PT or an OT, deaf..so on.

[Okla-homey]

Ummmmm, private schools choose who they will accept. Very few in our area take specials needs children - those children who are most expensive to educate.
Public schools must accept anyone who lives in their boundary area. Period.

Homey, I would also say that your example really shows the impact that parents who make education a priority have on their child's education.
Teachers will tell you that a child with a supportive parent will almost always do better in any setting.

Yep, that's the great intangible aspect isn't it. Parents who care enough to make a stink about school choices are also the ones who care enough to make sure their kids mind, do their homework and are willing to support the teacher in appropriate ways.

I don't object to the concept of free public instruction in this country. I think it helped make our country great. The problem for me, is the dumbing down that has crept in, and the fact in most districts, its just too tough to get rid of teachers who don't deserve that honorable title because they are either lazy, burnt-out or the product of some bullshiite diploma mill and don't even deserve to call themselves college graduates.

[Okla-homey]

School choice will make a bigger division between the haves and have nots...I've read nothing that keeps me from believing this.

I'd simply offer this, its often a matter of family priorities. Most private schools offer payment plans that make it affordable for people of limited means. They often offer outright financial aid based on need too. All the schools our kid went to did.

When we were young marrieds and she was ready to start school we did'nt have alot of extra cash, but we figured what could be more important than ensuring she got a quality education? No, we never took her to Disneyworld when she was a little girl, and that pains us from time to time, but dang it if she didn't do great in school and she's studying exactly what she wanted to study in the college she chose. That makes us feel pretty good, especially since she's the one who will pick our nursing home someday.;)

[Ike]

I'd simply offer this, its often a matter of family priorities. Most private schools offer payment plans that make it affordable for people of limited means. They often offer outright financial aid based on need too. All the schools our kid went to did.

When we were young marrieds and she was ready to start school we did'nt have alot of extra cash, but we figured what could be more important than ensuring she got a quality education? No, we never took her to Disneyworld when she was a little girl, and that pains us from time to time, but dang it if she didn't do great in school and she's studying exactly what she wanted to study in the college she chose. That makes us feel pretty good, especially since she's the one who will pick our nursing home someday.;)


Homey, I don't doubt that choosing a private school was a great thing for your family. It would be great for everyone....except that in reality, it probably wouldn't work that way. the first thing that would happen in a scenario where 'vouchers' existed would be for the cost of private education to rise dramatically. simply because there would be more demand for it, and little increase in supply. what would, most realistically happen, is that parents that want to send their kids to good private schools and can afford it would volunarily pony up a great deal more cash to ensure that thier kid isn't left out of the school they want him at. meanwhile the average joes who thought that, with the new gov't voucher, they would finally be able to afford to get to send their kid to a decent school find that they are stuck right where they were before and have to again send their kid to public school...just the public schools have less money now cause the rich kids that were going to go to a private school anyway get to keep 'their share' of the public education dollars.

So, in that scenario, I don't know that competition would actually be encouraged by that particular form of school choice....which is what we want right...competition? the situation doesn't really change much.

now granted, there still might be some competiton. more private schools might open up, schools that try to take advantage of a voucher program and provide affordable education. But I have a feeling that some of these might also open just to make a quick buck without really caring about public education too...making the choices more difficult.



while private schools are a great thing, making them affordable by all (or even most) might turn out not be so great...then again, I could be wrong too. no, I think that the best way to improve public education on a large scale is to instead encourage competiton not amongst schools, but amongst teachers and potential teachers. give schools the ability to fire teachers and the money to lure and hire quality teachers. Reward with cashola the teachers that really do a great job. fire the teachers that do a lousy job.

<edit> I only used the voucher scenario in this post because it seems to be one of the more common 'plans' put forth to give parents a choice over schooling.

[SOONER44EVER]

I saw the show and they negleted one major issue IMO. Good parenting. There was a lady who had "great concerns" because her 18 year old son couldn't read. Shouldn't she have started being concerned about his lack of reading ability about 10 years ago? I just don't get some people. :confused:

[SoonerInKCMO]

As an aside, when she started first grade, we lived in Dayton, OH. A bunch of concerned parents had prevailed in a lawsuit to require the school district to bus their kids to their privately run schools aboard the district's public school busses...which was sweet! They won on the theory that they were paying state and local taxes and they ought to get some return on their tax investment in public education, particularly since their kids were'nt taking up space and consuming resources in the public schools.

Hey - my kids don't even exist. What kind of lawsuit can I file to get some of my money back? You're in law school - hook me up. ;)

[Soonrboy]

I'd simply offer this, its often a matter of family priorities. Most private schools offer payment plans that make it affordable for people of limited means. They often offer outright financial aid based on need too. All the schools our kid went to did.

When we were young marrieds and she was ready to start school we did'nt have alot of extra cash, but we figured what could be more important than ensuring she got a quality education? No, we never took her to Disneyworld when she was a little girl, and that pains us from time to time, but dang it if she didn't do great in school and she's studying exactly what she wanted to study in the college she chose. That makes us feel pretty good, especially since she's the one who will pick our nursing home someday.;)


here's my fear...what is to keep a prestigious private school from upping its fees and keep out those kids who are knocking on the doors waiving vouchers? Nothing. If private school enrollment increases, there will be a demand for more teachers, and historically, private schools do not pay as well as public. It will bring down the quality of private schools. Simple supply and demand.

I can appreciate the sacrifices you made while sending your daughter to private school, and it pains me, as a public school principal, that our schools don't fit everyone's needs. My kids both go to public schools, but we are so involved in their education and caring about what they learning, that it wouldn't matter where they attended school, because the love for learning begins at home.

[Okla-homey]

Hey - my kids don't even exist. What kind of lawsuit can I file to get some of my money back? You're in law school - hook me up. ;)

Its been tried and failed every time. See, there is this notion that free public education benefits everyone in society...cause otherwise, I guess we'd have roving bands of larcenous 10 year olds roaming the streets when all the rich 10 year old kids were in private school;)

The bussing thing was different, folks just wanted something for their money to benefit their families that the districts were capable of providing without any undue burden. They reasoned that the districts would have to bus their kids if they went to public school, so why should the district get a pass just because certain of those kids went to a private or parochial school? The court bought it.

[SOONER44EVER]

it wouldn't matter where they attended school, because the love for learning begins at home.
EXACTLY!

[Okla-homey]

If private school enrollment increases, there will be a demand for more teachers, and historically, private schools do not pay as well as public. It will bring down the quality of private schools. Simple supply and demand.

Here's why I respectfully submit you're wrong on the above contention. The faculties of the schools where our daughter went were full of teachers who wanted to teach, were great at it, but were fed-up with dealing with all the attendant problems present in today's public schools and therefore left for private gigs. I'll always remember her high school chemistry teacher in particular.

Yep, she took pay cut, but after she was assaulted and injured by a kid at her public school job, she said "enough" and bailed for my kids private school. She is a superb teacher and I asked her during a conference if she ever regretted the move to which she replied to the effect there are more important principles at stake than just salary and that she enjoyed being able to teach without distraction from misbehaving kids or being required to teach some state administered competency test our kids never had to take.

Personally, we always felt our daughter was safer too. To date, I'm not aware of any child harmed by a school shooter or other serious kid-on-kid violence in any American private school setting. When we were in Montgomery AL for example, there was something at least once each week in the paper about some kid stabbing some other kid or worse in the public high schools, cops always on campus notwithstanding.

[BajaOklahoma]

If a private school does take a special needs child, the public school district is required to provide the services, no matter the cost of those services. So a private school doesn't have to hire a speech therapists, the public school district sends one into the schools...same with a PT or an OT, deaf..so on.

True, but most of the ones in our area just don't take with special needs in the firwst place. If they discover the special need while the child is their student, it often depends on the need as to whther they will keep the child. We have several students who were let go from their private school for special need reasons.

[Soonrboy]

Personally, we always felt our daughter was safer too. To date, I'm not aware of any child harmed by a school shooter or other serious kid-on-kid violence in any American private school setting. When we were in Montgomery AL for example, there was something at least once each week in the paper about some kid stabbing some other kid or worse in the public high schools, cops always on campus notwithstanding.
there's a bunch of little boys who attended private catholic schools and were molested who might disagree with you.

No body likes dealing with the discipline problem. There are excellent teachers who are able to handle both the discipline and the academic side. It happens everyday. Teaching in a public school, in some areas, is tough...and there are special people who are making great strides in those areas.

Also, you give private schools some government money, such as vouchers, the same testing mandates will follow. Promise.

[85Sooner]

tEACHERS NEED THE ABILITY to kick misbehaving children out of class. If their parents cannot teach them to be respectful and behave themselves then let the parents take care of the little jerks.

[BajaOklahoma]

tEACHERS NEED THE ABILITY to kick misbehaving children out of class. If their parents cannot teach them to be respectful and behave themselves then let the parents take care of the little jerks.

WORD!

[Okla-homey]

there's a bunch of little boys who attended private catholic schools and were molested who might disagree with you.

That happens in public schools too. My point was about kid-on-kid crime. That is far less likely in a private setting, (unless a Kennedy is involved);)

No body likes dealing with the discipline problem. There are excellent teachers who are able to handle both the discipline and the academic side. It happens everyday. Teaching in a public school, in some areas, is tough...and there are special people who are making great strides in those areas.

We didn't want to gamble with our kids future that she would always have teachers who could maintain control and teach too. Far too many can't or won't. At the high school level the fact is, at least where we were, far too many kids were there just to hang-out, socialize and get a meal and had absolutely no desire to learn anything.

Also, you give private schools some government money, such as vouchers, the same testing mandates will follow. Promise.

Does that now occur in progressive areas that have voucher programs? I'm not aware of anywhere that has become an issue. Heck, i wouldn't even mind if home schoolers could get vouchers with which to offset their considerable expenses buying materials.

In my mind the only accountability private schools should have is whether or not their graduates are doing well enough on the ACT/SAT to get into the colleges of their choice. That kind of accountability is meaningful and will determine if that school can keep its doors open.

I've got a lot of faith in market-based systems and I believe, given a chance, the private school market could easily expand to fill the demand if people were given a real choice. I'm quite sure their are entrepenuers who would step up to fill the need. I also don't think the teacher salary delta would matter much over the long haul. In Alabama where we were when she was in high school, the difference was only about 15%. Given the better teaching environment, there was never a shortage of qualified faculty, and the school wouldn't even consider a teacher who didn't have a masters in the discipline in which he or she taught. As I recall, that was more importnat than whether or not they had a cheezy teaching certificate from the state.

They also weren't encumbered by all these redundant layers of support staff which in some ways, seemed more like a government make-work program to us (e.g. grammar schools with two assistant principals, a bevy of "guidance counselors", etc. -- for elementary school kids!)

One of the most superb aspects of the private school experience at the high school level is for 95+% of the seniors, college is their next stop. That therefore is the focus of the entire high school. Let's face it, in this new century, a bachelors degree is just as important as a high school diploma used to be thirty years ago. I realize college isn't for everyone, but it just makes sense to me to break those kids out and tailor to their needs separately. That's one thing I think the Europeans have done right within their public school systems -- and their public school kid's test scores are all the proof anyone should need to conclude they are on the right track.