20/20

[Mjcpr]

John Stossel is doing a show about public education. I only watched a few minutes of it (Mrs Mj is recording it) but he seems to be of the opinion that public schools have plenty of money to do the job they're supposed to do yet they're always clamoring for more, more, more. I've always thought that. Every time you turn around, schools are pleading poverty, low salaries, etc and hit you up for fundraisers out the wazoo in addition to the millions they already get. Don't get me wrong, I realize it's important and I realize teachers are underpaid, etc, etc. I guess it's just another in a long line of horribly inefficient government.

Anyway, watch it.....kinda interesting, if an unpopular opinion.

[saucysoonergal]

John Stossel is the Tuba of ABC! ;) freakin lib media ;)

[KC//CRIMSON]

VH1 - The 40 Most Shocking Concert Moments > 20/20

Hasselhoff in Germany, killed.

[afs]

Three amigos > VH1 > 20/20

[Mjcpr]

Get your hillbilly asses some education....watch 20/20.

[MojoRisen]

John Stossel is doing a show about public education. I only watched a few minutes of it (Mrs Mj is recording it) but he seems to be of the opinion that public schools have plenty of money to do the job they're supposed to do yet they're always clamoring for more, more, more. I've always thought that. Every time you turn around, schools are pleading poverty, low salaries, etc and hit you up for fundraisers out the wazoo in addition to the millions they already get. Don't get me wrong, I realize it's important and I realize teachers are underpaid, etc, etc. I guess it's just another in a long line of horribly inefficient government.

Anyway, watch it.....kinda interesting, if an unpopular opinion.

Come on man, I guess it is where you work and what country- then you are talking state Gov or even municiple. Fairfax Co Va, 50k un real benefits and summers off? Seriously maybe they should earn it before demanding raises.

He is right-

[GottaHavePride]

Public education has plenty of money if they would dump 75% of the administration and 90% of the assessment testing, let the teachers freaking teach, and base teacher salaries on their performance. And if you can't tell who is a good teacher and who sucks without an assessment you shouldn't be the person making those decisions anyway.

[oumartin]

I'm watchin' it to KC.
Loved the bloody pon being thrown about.
Also wanna start an Soonerfans B**by cam!

[JohnnyMack]

VH1 - The 40 Most Shocking Concert Moments > 20/20

Hasselhoff in Germany, killed.

Who killed Knight Rider?

[KC//CRIMSON]

VH1 40 Most Shocking Concert Moments - Bird craps in Cyndi Lauper's mouth > Three Amigos > 20/20 > Education.

[oumartin]

Did you see Steve Stevens on VH1.
I got picks of one of his sweeties!

[KC//CRIMSON]

Did you see Steve Stevens on VH1.
I got picks of one of his sweeties!

Saw him and Billy in concert back in July. Good show.:cool:

[oumartin]

oh yeah, Fergie!
you can do that to me!

[KC//CRIMSON]

GG Allen = Freak.

[oumartin]

yeah, world is better of with him gone.
thats was just the most disgusting thing i've seen.

[KC//CRIMSON]

Time for the best 30 minutes on tv....BEST WEEK EVER!!

[oumartin]

I am so ticked. I missed Remembering the Carpenters on OETA

[Mjcpr]

I am so ticked. I missed Remembering the Carpenters on OETA

Does this help at all?

http://www.kenmeyerjr.com/music/karen.jpg

[oumartin]

No it doesn't.
I loved her voice not her skeleton!

[afs]

i would watch 20/20 but Coldplay - Austin City Limits is on PBS.

[Mjcpr]

No it doesn't.
I loved her voice not her skeleton!

My music teacher always said to sing from your heart. In that pic, I think you can see its lips moving.



*cough*

[oumartin]

I'm hoping thats not implying what I think it is.

[85Sooner]

Now here is the question , Does he reeally believe in his report? or not.

At this point his show should be rerun every night for a year.

There is no way in He!! that my child will ever see a government run school. ( ie: public school) It wil not happen and I don't give a flip who knows.

[85Sooner]

To heck with public educamacation. They suck and once teachers figure out whats going on then something may change. Idiots

[oumartin]

okay 85. Honest to goodness question.
I would love to get the sony you recommended to me but its just not affordable with me buying a house and what not.
I was thinking of a 51" magnavox. I know its not all high end like you like but it should be good enuff i think. I think the picture is great and for the price you cannot beat it. Now, do you think thats totally stupid?

[ChickSoonerFan]

I think where you are located place a big part in it too. But to overlook the parents responsibility in making sure that their children are making the most of what the school they go to has to offer is a mistake. I don't care how good the school is, if the children are not expected by their PARENTS to succeed and learn, it doesn't matter what school they go to. IMO. :D

My girls go to private school, but I still have to make sure homework and studying are a priority at home...the school cannot do that no matter how much I pay them.

[oumartin]

My girls go to private school,


so, this is like name dropping isn't it ;)

[Mjcpr]

I'm hoping thats not implying what I think it is.

:confused:

[ChickSoonerFan]

so, this is like name dropping isn't it ;)

name dropping is when it makes no sense to mention it in a conversation...I was trying to make a point that no matter if the school is government funded or "parent" funded...in the long run I think the parents are responsible for the child getting the most out of the school. I thought that is what the thread was about...at least what it started out to be about. ;)

If it sounded like name dropping, it was not meant too..really. :O

[oumartin]

i was just ribbin' ya chick! :D

[ChickSoonerFan]

i was just ribbin' ya chick! :D

well quit it!!

My ribs are ticklish for goodness sakes...;)

[OUinFLA]

Public education has plenty of money if they would dump 75% of the administration and 90% of the assessment testing, let the teachers freaking teach, and base teacher salaries on their performance. And if you can't tell who is a good teacher and who sucks without an assessment you shouldn't be the person making those decisions anyway.


BINGO!

Somewhere in my memory bank, I think Washington State(??) about 3 years ago passed a law that Admin in the school system had a ceiling of 20%(?) of total school funds.

It struck me as a fine idea, as Admin in my county accounts for over 38% of payroll in the school system. I would much prefer that money went to the teachers.

Anyone familier with the outcome of the Washington law? (If it was Wash.)

[MojoRisen]

County jobs are good jobs- if you like to teach- teach. Did you go into the profession thinking you were going to arrange for a world strike and turn the Teaching into a 6 figure salary on 5 years experience?

Come on- why complain about the money- do something else with the education- private schools are good these days anyway and make way less than public- so those teachers ussually want to teach and are rewarded by their efforts.

Public schools: DO NOT RECOGNIZE HOLLOWEEN, CHRISTMAS, UNDER GOD, it is anti american BS- melting pot BS- go f yourselfs.......

[Soonrboy]

County jobs are good jobs- if you like to teach- teach. Did you go into the profession thinking you were going to arrange for a world strike and turn the Teaching into a 6 figure salary on 5 years experience?

Come on- why complain about the money- do something else with the education- private schools are good these days anyway and make way less than public- so those teachers ussually want to teach and are rewarded by their efforts.

Public schools: DO NOT RECOGNIZE HOLLOWEEN, CHRISTMAS, UNDER GOD, it is anti american BS- melting pot BS- go f yourselfs.......

My god...please tell you are a product of a private school...please.

[85Sooner]

okay 85. Honest to goodness question.
I would love to get the sony you recommended to me but its just not affordable with me buying a house and what not.
I was thinking of a 51" magnavox. I know its not all high end like you like but it should be good enuff i think. I think the picture is great and for the price you cannot beat it. Now, do you think thats totally stupid?


Not at all, which model is it?

Seriously, We are seeing more and more of our aquantances (sp) starting the home schooling thing.

It seems the kids who were going to school were learning............ just not the 3 R's. they were learning how to act like non respectful tykes, coming home with colds, etc..... Even a poor job by most parents(if they do it) will end up with better results than we are currently seeing in the schools overall.

I thought it was interesting how the sylvan learning center helped that kid in 72 hours as opposed to the school which over 10 years spent over 100,000 and felt there was no problem with a 16 yera old reading on a 4th grade level.

I wish the teachers would get RID of the unions and let the PTA do what it was originally designed to do. I promise teachers will be much happier. If not, just keep letting the union keep driving up your taxes and keeping the money in their pockets (not the teachers)

We have 2 schools being built down the street from us right now and there is no way the kids need a jr college campus for secondary education. Millions wasted.

[StoopTroup]

Can private schools have their own lottery?

I'd buy a ticket for that too. :D

[Okieflyer]

John Stossel is the Tuba of ABC! ;) freakin lib media ;)

Thank goodness for that. He's the only reason to watch 20/20.

[Soonrboy]

Not at all, which model is it?

Seriously, We are seeing more and more of our aquantances (sp) starting the home schooling thing.

It seems the kids who were going to school were learning............ just not the 3 R's. they were learning how to act like non respectful tykes, coming home with colds, etc..... Even a poor job by most parents(if they do it) will end up with better results than we are currently seeing in the schools overall.

I thought it was interesting how the sylvan learning center helped that kid in 72 hours as opposed to the school which over 10 years spent over 100,000 and felt there was no problem with a 16 yera old reading on a 4th grade level.

I wish the teachers would get RID of the unions and let the PTA do what it was originally designed to do. I promise teachers will be much happier. If not, just keep letting the union keep driving up your taxes and keeping the money in their pockets (not the teachers)

We have 2 schools being built down the street from us right now and there is no way the kids need a jr college campus for secondary education. Millions wasted.


Home schooling is great when you have no tolerance for differences and don't want your kids to know how to work with or interact with people that are different than they are. By reading your rants about your customers, I can see that tolerance isn't your thing.

I thought it was interesting how he showed the best schools in Belgium...where were the handicapped kids? Where were the kids who didn't do well in school? Why didn't he compare our best schools to their best schools? Tell you why...cause overall, the US educates ALL our children better than any other country on the face of this earth.

The public schools teach everyone, no matter what. Some schools do a better job than others. Some businesses do a better job of serving their customers than others do...

[85Sooner]

Home schooling is great when you have no tolerance for differences and don't want your kids to know how to work with or interact with people that are different than they are. By reading your rants about your customers, I can see that tolerance isn't your thing.

I thought it was interesting how he showed the best schools in Belgium...where were the handicapped kids? Where were the kids who didn't do well in school? Why didn't he compare our best schools to their best schools? Tell you why...cause overall, the US educates ALL our children better than any other country on the face of this earth.

The public schools teach everyone, no matter what. Some schools do a better job than others. Some businesses do a better job of serving their customers than others do...

Keep telling yourself that. Personally I had a banner year and have great take care of all my "customer".

The american schools are run on teaching socialization. I don't need them for that. Go find the nearest 10 highschoolers and ask them what the bill of rights is and why it was written. Ask them what the cause of the civil War was? Ask them about the gettysburg address? How bout long division percentages, etc....

Most of it now is social engineering IMO. You can do whatever you want . Unfortunately I will continue to be forced to pay for the substandard product we are getting because we have wimpy representatives and an ignorant, self absorbed public for the most part.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Come on man, I guess it is where you work and what country- then you are talking state Gov or even municiple. Fairfax Co Va, 50k un real benefits and summers off? Seriously maybe they should earn it before demanding raises.

He is right-

Just wait until your taxes start going up SIGNIFICANTLY becuase of all those underfunded state worker and teachers retirement benefits! IL - $40 Billion, Ohio $30B, NY/MI - $24B. I bet some state governments will fall when they start meeting the funding payment requirements.

Teachers are overpaid and school districts have too much money. All those $200K per year administrators is ridiculous! I've had classes with those Ed Psych and other Ed majors, most are dumb as doorknobs. I had one grad psych class with myself (an engineer), ed psych majors and psych majors. This was my first psych course and I got second in the course, the ed psych people got Ds! Ds! IN A GRAD COURSE!! After that the ed psych dept wouldn't allow their people take courses from the psych dept.

[fadada1]

while not all public education is bad (some are quite good), there are some SERIOUS flaws out there. i was lucky enought to go to an excellent public school in new york. after spending some time in the south (and texas), i feel that there are some real issues here that most people don't know about. simple grammar and math skills are non existent in many folks.

my GF works for the philly shool district as a special programs coordinator - organizing tutors/providors for those in need. basically, a government system (no child left behind:rolleyes: ) that is squandering money by lying to the school district. just from her stories, i've never seen so much extortion of funds in my life. i get made listening to her stories. it's really very sad.

yeah, she's a HUGE fan of george W. :rolleyes:

[Kels]

Home schooling is great when you have no tolerance for differences and don't want your kids to know how to work with or interact with people that are different than they are. By reading your rants about your customers, I can see that tolerance isn't your thing.
You have got to be kidding, right? Are you a member of the OEA and NEA? I have a high percentage of home schoolers here at OU. Some of them are National Merit scholars. Overall, they consistently perform better than the students with public school backgrounds. Interestingly, these students have made OU's football and basketball teams, been active in campus government, worked with international students, gone Greek, you name it. Norman has one of the better home school networks in the state. They are well-organized with joint science classes, sports teams, etc. Contrary to popular belief, they are also diverse socio-economically, racially, and culturally.

I doubt we'll home school our children due to my wife's health issues. However, the new Veritas Academy in Norman is growing every year, so we will probably take a look at that.

My mother was a rabid OEA member throughout her teaching career. My wife taught at inner-city schools before she taught at OU. I've seen the best that socialized education can do, and the current monopoly just doesn't work.

[PrideTrombone]

Teachers are overpaid

I've not feeling very overpaid at the moment.


and school districts have too much money.
Depends on the district. A lot of richer districts (Tulsa Union comes to mind) get most of their money through property taxes, and they make more if there is a lot of commercial development in the area. Tulsa Union was a poor-*** district right up until they built Woodland Hills mall. The Bass Pro shop should really increase the money that Broken Arrow gets. You should see the state that some schools are in, even getting the money they get. Broken Arrow has a nice senior high school, but the Intermediate Highs (9-10 grade) have some facilities that just flat out suck, and you wouldn't think it by looking at the high schol.


All those $200K per year administrators is ridiculous!
This, I agree with. A lot of these tiny districts in Oklahoma need to be consolidated and put under one administration, and each administration only needs one Superintendent, for goodness' sake.


I've had classes with those Ed Psych and other Ed majors, most are dumb as doorknobs. I had one grad psych class with myself (an engineer), ed psych majors and psych majors. This was my first psych course and I got second in the course, the ed psych people got Ds! Ds! IN A GRAD COURSE!! After that the ed psych dept wouldn't allow their people take courses from the psych dept.

Any good teacher I've ever seen will tell you that the ed psych courses are retarded and to just use common sense. Anyone who buys into that crap will get walked on by their kids. Guaranteed.

[85Sooner]

You have got to be kidding, right? Are you a member of the OEA and NEA? I have a high percentage of home schoolers here at OU. Some of them are National Merit scholars. Overall, they consistently perform better than the students with public school backgrounds. Interestingly, these students have made OU's football and basketball teams, been active in campus government, worked with international students, gone Greek, you name it. Norman has one of the better home school networks in the state. They are well-organized with joint science classes, sports teams, etc. Contrary to popular belief, they are also diverse socio-economically, racially, and culturally.

I doubt we'll home school our children due to my wife's health issues. However, the new Veritas Academy in Norman is growing every year, so we will probably take a look at that.

My mother was a rabid OEA member throughout her teaching career. My wife taught at inner-city schools before she taught at OU. I've seen the best that socialized education can do, and the current monopoly just doesn't work.


Great Post

[PrideTrombone]

while not all public education is bad (some are quite good), there are some SERIOUS flaws out there. i was lucky enought to go to an excellent public school in new york. after spending some time in the south (and texas), i feel that there are some real issues here that most people don't know about. simple grammar and math skills are non existent in many folks.

You know, I've noticed this too. The number of adults that can't construct a grammatically correct sentence absolutely amazes me. Oh well, I'm a band director. Not my problem. :D

[fadada1]

Home schooling is great when you have no tolerance for differences and don't want your kids to know how to work with or interact with people that are different than they are. By reading your rants about your customers, I can see that tolerance isn't your thing.

i gotta agree here. i've got 3 home schooled kids working under me. all of them have ZERO social skills. they have no idea how to work with/for someone that hasn't coddled them from day one. in other words, they have a tough time being told "no". while they might be getting a good education from mom or dad, they aren't learning how to interact and use the education other than trying to score wqell on the SAT. the goal is not just to get the kids into college, the goal is to teach them to become productive adults and contribute to our society.

yes, i'm making a sweeping statement. imo, parents of home schooled kids have little faith in the school system (sometimes justified). however, in the long run, the home schooled kids i knew once they reached college had some serious social issues - which made them struggle in ALL areas.

just my $.02

[fadada1]

You know, I've noticed this too. The number of adults that can't construct a grammatically correct sentence absolutely amazes me. Oh well, I'm a band director. Not my problem. :D
but can they read their music??? or are you teaching them bad music grammar??? nothing worse than your lead trumpet player who can't read simple syncopation:D

[Soonrboy]

i gotta agree here. i've got 3 home schooled kids working under me. all of them have ZERO social skills. they have no idea how to work with/for someone that hasn't coddled them from day one. in other words, they have a tough time being told "no". while they might be getting a good education from mom or dad, they aren't learning how to interact and use the education other than trying to score wqell on the SAT. the goal is not just to get the kids into college, the goal is to teach them to become productive adults and contribute to our society.

yes, i'm making a sweeping statement. imo, parents of home schooled kids have little faith in the school system (sometimes justified). however, in the long run, the home schooled kids i knew once they reached college had some serious social issues - which made them struggle in ALL areas.

just my $.02

excellent...you home school kids and keep them away from others. Even if you join a home-school association, it's with the same type of people you are and want your children to be...no individualism, no differences of opinion, no racial integration, no tolerance for others.

[Soonrboy]

You have got to be kidding, right? Are you a member of the OEA and NEA? I have a high percentage of home schoolers here at OU. Some of them are National Merit scholars. Overall, they consistently perform better than the students with public school backgrounds. Interestingly, these students have made OU's football and basketball teams, been active in campus government, worked with international students, gone Greek, you name it. Norman has one of the better home school networks in the state. They are well-organized with joint science classes, sports teams, etc. Contrary to popular belief, they are also diverse socio-economically, racially, and culturally.

I doubt we'll home school our children due to my wife's health issues. However, the new Veritas Academy in Norman is growing every year, so we will probably take a look at that.

My mother was a rabid OEA member throughout her teaching career. My wife taught at inner-city schools before she taught at OU. I've seen the best that socialized education can do, and the current monopoly just doesn't work.

No, I'm not a member of any organization, and you really won't find me supporting them.

I didn't say anything negative about the educational results of home-schooling your child and doing a good job of it. If you are able to do a better job than do it, however, don't throw a shield over your child and stones at public education when you aren't a part of it.

I would also like to see the percentage of diversity in that home-school association...

[85Sooner]

i gotta agree here. i've got 3 home schooled kids working under me. all of them have ZERO social skills. they have no idea how to work with/for someone that hasn't coddled them from day one. in other words, they have a tough time being told "no". while they might be getting a good education from mom or dad, they aren't learning how to interact and use the education other than trying to score wqell on the SAT. the goal is not just to get the kids into college, the goal is to teach them to become productive adults and contribute to our society.

yes, i'm making a sweeping statement. imo, parents of home schooled kids have little faith in the school system (sometimes justified). however, in the long run, the home schooled kids i knew once they reached college had some serious social issues - which made them struggle in ALL areas.

just my $.02

I think alot of that is attributed to earlier home schooled kids. The kids have alot more available to them today. And why all this concern about social skills.

You didn't say what you (or they) do are they productive? So is one not a productive adult because they have a hard time dealing with being told NO?

[85Sooner]

No, I'm not a member of any organization, and you really won't find me supporting them.

I didn't say anything negative about the educational results of home-schooling your child and doing a good job of it. If you are able to do a better job than do it, however, don't throw a shield over your child and stones at public education when you aren't a part of it.

I would also like to see the percentage of diversity in that home-school association...


I will gladly leave public schools alone when I no longer have to pay them 2500.00 + a year in taxes.

Teachers have the power. Tell the unions to shove off. Then somethings may change. School boards tend to be made up of busy bodies who don't have the stomach for real politics so you know we gat the best and brightest in those positions .HAH

[fadada1]

I think alot of that is attributed to earlier home schooled kids. The kids have alot more available to them today. And why all this concern about social skills.

You didn't say what you (or they) do are they productive? So is one not a productive adult because they have a hard time dealing with being told NO?
just my opinion based on the what i've seen - that's all.

i didn't say a home schooled kid couldn't be productive because they've never been told "no". what i'm saying, based on experience, is when you DO tell them NO, they pout and moan because mom has always been there to say YES. life is not always about getting what you want. it's also unfair to tell a kid he's the next tiger woods, albert einstein, etc... when he/she has never seen/interacted with anyone else. it's a tough reality when you find out you're NOT the best/smartest out there. and because there's never been any competition (in any areas), there's some very tough going when the person you're working with is better.

i always thought it motivating to know i wasn't the best. made me work harder knowing i wasn't the best swimmer/golfer/student.

again, just my opinion.

[Widescreen]

Those of us who grew up in public schools NEVER saw kids that were anti-social or had no social skills. :rolleyes:

fadada, how do you know that their pouting is due to mom and dad never telling them No? Did they tell you that or were you there during their homeschooling? Maybe they're just immature.

If you met my kids, you'd find them well-adjusted, happy and respectful of adults. I realize you were offering your opinion from personal experience but it seems you're injecting ideas of why they are the way they are that are simply guess or pop-psychology.

[Soonrboy]

"You're either ignorant or have public school ties. I don't care which.....Widescreen"

Thanks for the neg about intolerance, widescreen.

[85Sooner]

excellent...you home school kids and keep them away from others. Even if you join a home-school association, it's with the same type of people you are and want your children to be...no individualism, no differences of opinion, no racial integration, no tolerance for others.


Personally yes. They are individuals, oh they have opinions, they are just educated opinions, Why does race always come up when it has nothing to do with anything we are discussing. As a matter of fact home schooled kids won't get separation ideas because they won't see different groups hanging out togetherin packs, as they tend to do. As far as tolerance for others, I'm sick of tolerance. Thats a politically correct term for everyone having to accept behavior that they find deplorable. I now see tv shows revolving around gays, all races, etc... I am tolerant but the ceiling is about to be hit. Next thing you know in the name of tolerance, we should all accept and embrace NAMBLA, NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fadada1]

... but it seems you're injecting ideas of why they are the way they are that are simply guess or pop-psychology.
pretty much.:D

[fadada1]

... but it seems you're injecting ideas of why they are the way they are that are simply guess or pop-psychology.
oh, and stereotypes just don't come out of thin air. there's something out there that is a basis for said stereotype. doesn't matter what race, religion, socio-economic status, ancestory, etc. you happen to be. sure, there are stereotype breakers out there, but there are still patterns. again, just an observation.

[Ike]

I'm just gonna chime in this once on this thread.

money is being wasted for a couple of reasons. reason 1, teachers unions making it difficult to fire underperforming teachers....related to that reason, it also makes it more difficult to give overperforming teachers a raise. this kind of situation just breeds mediocrity at best.
reason 2. Administration. money is being grossly mis spent. computers in classrooms don't do any good if the kids can't read. a lot of school districts are spending boat loads of money on things not nessecary to education with regards to equipment and facilities, which are nice things to have, but in many cases if you already have a case of underperforming schools, fixing that (by say paying the good teachers more money to keep them there, firing the bad, and recruiting more good teachers, which takes...you guessed it, money), pouring money into equipment and facilities does absolutely zero.

[Melo]

I think where you are located place a big part in it too. But to overlook the parents responsibility in making sure that their children are making the most of what the school they go to has to offer is a mistake. I don't care how good the school is, if the children are not expected by their PARENTS to succeed and learn, it doesn't matter what school they go to. IMO. :D

My girls go to private school, but I still have to make sure homework and studying are a priority at home...the school cannot do that no matter how much I pay them.

Chick makes a good point. As some of you may know, both of my parents are teachers. I hear a lot of things from their side, and you would be surprised at how many parents DON'T care how their children are doing. All of you on this board would care how you children do, and you would encourage them to make good grades. But some parents have more "important" things on their minds.

Children need the motivation, encouragment and support from home to succeed at school. And theyre going to make mistakes, but that's part of growing up and being a kid.




I will gladly leave public schools alone when I no longer have to pay them 2500.00 + a year in taxes.


You think that's bad, imagine being a teacher, and having to pay those taxes. Kind of like paying your own salary, huh?




Teachers are overpaid and school districts have too much money.

This is stupid. You try to support and feed your family on teachers pay. You might find it's harder than you think. Both of my parents are, granted, fine art teachers, so they get paid a little bit more, but not anything to brag about.

When I was in junior high and high school, I had to go without a lot of things. I'm going to a junior college, where over have my tuition is paid for, i'm paying, at most, about 1800 a semester, and they struggle to help me, and I have to work my *** off over the summers just so I can pay for it. Trust me. That doesnt happen because theyre overpaid.

I'm tired of hearing stuff about crappy public school systems. I really am. Theyre not all bad. And if it's that important to you that your kids go to good schools, then LOOK AROUND. FIND ONE THAT SUITS YOU. If you don't like it, home school them. Not that difficult.

[85Sooner]

[QUOTE=Melo]



tEACHERS ARE OVERPAID
This is stupid. You try to support and feed your family on teachers pay. You might find it's harder than you think. Both of my parents are, granted, fine art teachers, so they get paid a little bit more, but not anything to brag about.



ONLY tHE TEACHERS CAN CHANGE THIS. Tell the unions and fight to get the districts to allow you to arbitrate for their salary and they will see dividends.

[Widescreen]

"You're either ignorant or have public school ties. I don't care which.....Widescreen"

Thanks for the neg about intolerance, widescreen.
That's funny. That's the first neg I've handed out in about 6 months and you feel the need to post it. I hope you feel better now. :rolleyes:

[Melo]

ONLY tHE TEACHERS CAN CHANGE THIS. Tell the unions and fight to get the districts to allow you to arbitrate for their salary and they will see dividends.

See, the funny thing about telling unions something and fighting for something... is that first, the state has to have unions. Texas doesn't have teachers unions.

What does that tell you? Doesnt matter with unions one way or the other, teachers are still underpaid for the amount of work they do.

[soonerscuba]

A major problem facing education nowadays is that there is a group that believes that administration is a problem (which it is), but at the same time refuses to consolidate districts because they don't believe the government should tell them how to teach their kids. It's a Catch-22.

Also, they don't teach to the lowest denominator at OU, why should they at the high school level?

[Widescreen]

The Texas supreme court is handling this in an interesting way. They've basically said that Texas school funding is adequate as-is. And that the current property tax mechanisms in Texas are unconstitutional so the legislature has until June to fix it or property taxes will be abolished.

[Ike]

Also, they don't teach to the lowest denominator at OU, why should they at the high school level?

this is yet another catch-22. people want their schools to be places where kids can socialize with people different from themselves. of course, it doesn't always happen that way, but for the most part, people want schools to be as non-discriminatory as possible. the problem is that in the non-discrimination part of that they also don't want to segregate kids based on academic performance...especially not in the earlier years. in HS, this gets done a bit, but not so much at the early levels (where it really matters). the problem you run into then is that if you have one classroom full of kids that range from super smart to super slow, it's insanely difficult to not teach to the lowest common denominator. if you don't the slower kids give up and then just become a distraction for the rest of the class.


really, the only way out of that is to segregate the kids based upon their performance in the classroom in some way, but then that leads to PR problems.

[BajaOklahoma]

Pssst! Melo, yes they do have unions in Texas.

[Melo]

Pssst! Melo, yes they do have unions in Texas.

Teachers unions? ATPE, and other groups, but I didnt think they were actual unions.

[Widescreen]

Baja should know. She's a teacher and stuff.

[Skysooner]

My wife has a graduate degree in education and still makes $8k less than I did the first year out of school as an engineer. Currently she works almost as hard as I do and makes around 15% of our total income. Her first year of teaching, we were living in New Orleans, and she was paid $11,000 a year by a private school. Teaching in the public schools there was hell on earth from what I understood, so she took the cut in pay to be a little more happy.

[Melo]

That's cool, I wasnt sure. I wouldnt know for sure, and it was just the impression I was under.

[Cam]

In Oklahoma, teachers are in no way over paid. Year in and year out, they rank either the last or next to last average pay in the entire country.

My first year out of college, I made more than my Dad who had been teaching for over 20 years. We've never discussed my salary since that conversation. he's also been doing it so long that he's at the top of the pay scale. If he's lucky, he'll get a $300 raise this year.

Of course the problem is the administrators. Schoold districts are top heavy as hell. Guess who runs the unions, Administrators... Not such an easy fix.

[MamaMia]

In Oklahoma, teachers are in no way over paid. Year in and year out, they rank either the last or next to last average pay in the entire country.

Of course the problem is the administrators. Schoold districts are top heavy as hell. Guess who runs the unions, Administrators... Not such an easy fix.
The price of living in Oklahoma is one of the lowest in the country as well, so how is the average pay scale ranked in comparison to the price of living scale in other states?

I do agree that school administrators are way over paid and we have too many of them as well. I wonder why Oklahoma has so many superintendents when some states have less administrative leaders and fewer school districts. We could combine them. We should require smaller schools in Oklahoma to share chief administrators and secretarial staff members. The average school superintendent in Oklahoma makes more money than twice what the average teacher is paid.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Okay, after reflecting on what I posted, I take back the teacher's are overpaid comment. My wife certainly wasnt' when she taught band in Edmond. Comes to Houston and trains for an IT company and doubles her salary.

What I hate is the NEA and such moaning about the "children" and making you feel guilty that your are not paying more in taxes. Here's a trick, have the teachers check off if they want their dues to go to politics, and reduce the number of admins and their salarys. Pass a law that any new education bucks must go 100% to teachers salary, not admin.

There is coming a time where people are going to say enough on taxes and the schools will be screaming...

[MamaMia]

Okay, after reflecting on what I posted, I take back the teacher's are overpaid comment. My wife certainly wasnt' when she taught band in Edmond. Comes to Houston and trains for an IT company and doubles her salary.

What I hate is the NEA and such moaning about the "children" and making you feel guilty that your are not paying more in taxes. Here's a trick, have the teachers check off if they want their dues to go to politics, and reduce the number of admins and their salarys. Pass a law that any new education bucks must go 100% to teachers salary, not admin.

There is coming a time where people are going to say enough on taxes and the schools will be screaming... Last time I checked, 37% of Oklahomas taxes go to the schools.

[BajaOklahoma]

Baja should know. She's a teacher and stuff.


Nope, I'm not. I am a school nurse.
I have to say that my appreciation for teachers is much higher than before I started working in the school. For admin, about the same ...... maybe.
That's not to say that there aren't bad teachers. Just like any profession, there is good and bad. And I promise to try not to get too defensive because it does need improvement.

I just can't believe the change in the status of the average child's health in the classroom. I have a list of each child's health concerns, separated by grade level, single spaced. It is a small school, with only 6 grade levels. There are 10 pages! Seizures, autism, inability to swallow, not potty-trained, asthma, over-weight, diabetic, food allergies, emotionally impaired, compromized immune systems, regular allergies, visually impaired, hearing impaired, orthopedic injuries, fractured jaw with metal implant, etc.
Imagine trying to deal with this stuff and teach too. There are a lot of expensive technology and just special needs items to accommodate these kids. We have a padded time-out room for those out of control. A special swing, an individual trapoline to decompress. A washer and dryer for those wet clothes from the ones doing potty training. A special table for the food allergies. And on-and-on. It sounds stupid, but the law says we have to provide these things. Sorry, but I don't think the school should pay for the pull-ups.

[Mjcpr]

On the bright side, you get about 4 months off per year.




I kid, sorta.

[BajaOklahoma]

I work 185 days a year according to the school contract. I started working in the school eleven years ago so I could have some time with the kids. My old job was 10-12 hours a day and I always felt like I had so much more to do. (Oncology nurse) So this is my choice and I am happy with it.
Of course, I usually go in fulltime for the week before we should start back. Even then, the first month is 10 hour days. Shocked? I have to deal with the health issues for the kids - what treatments to be given at school, accommodations needed in the classroom, train the teachers for field trips, try to anticipate issues so I can head them off, data entry for state reports, care plans, and so on.

[Mjcpr]

I work 185 days a year according to the school contract. I started working in the school eleven years ago so I could have some time with the kids. My old job was 10-12 hours a day and I always felt like I had so much more to do. (Oncology nurse) So this is my choice and I am happy with it.
Of course, I usually go in fulltime for the week before we should start back. Even then, the first month is 10 hour days. Shocked? I have to deal with the health issues for the kids - what treatments to be given at school, accommodations needed in the classroom, train the teachers for field trips, try to anticipate issues so I can head them off, data entry for state reports, care plans, and so on.

I don't doubt that, Baja. But school is closed a lot more often than most places and it's closed a lot more often than where I work. Look, I'm not knocking it at all and I'm not knocking you (unless ya wanna ;)), I'm just saying that there are tradeoffs. And one of the tradeoffs for being a teacher (or nurse) is that you get a lot more time off. Yes, the pay is less than say...a hospital nurse, but you're also not working at 2am on Christmas Day either.

[85Sooner]

I don't doubt that, Baja. But school is closed a lot more often than most places and it's closed a lot more often than where I work. Look, I'm not knocking it at all and I'm not knocking you (unless ya wanna ;)), I'm just saying that there are tradeoffs. And one of the tradeoffs for being a teacher (or nurse) is that you get a lot more time off. Yes, the pay is less than say...a hospital nurse, but you're also not working at 2am on Christmas Day either.


good post, 178 days a year vs the national average of 255 days a year is about a 33 percent increase.no weekends, holidays etc... I have always felt that the teachers job should be a year long thing even though the kids are not in school. They could be doing the admin work in the "school closed" times. Then up the salaries and they would be better in line. Addiionally, there would not be a need for so many admin workers.

[MojoRisen]

This must be a state issue- I know a teacher that works in Elcko Nevada makes over 50K teaching 6th graders. In Elcko "spelling" I assume that is like making 75K in metro usa.

My fiance is a Teachers Assistant- has worked for the country for a while and makes 44K w/o a BA.. This is year round schooling in VA but they still get like 3 months off spread out through the year.

To me it sounds like a State thing that is run improperly at the state level-or really a county level....

Not to mention the country benefits are worth 15 gs in them selves with rising health care coverage going through the roof...

Fact based- just sayin

[BajaOklahoma]

I don't doubt that, Baja. But school is closed a lot more often than most places and it's closed a lot more often than where I work. Look, I'm not knocking it at all and I'm not knocking you (unless ya wanna ;)), I'm just saying that there are tradeoffs. And one of the tradeoffs for being a teacher (or nurse) is that you get a lot more time off. Yes, the pay is less than say...a hospital nurse, but you're also not working at 2am on Christmas Day either.


That's what I'm saying - I am willing to trade the higher pay for better hours. I did hospital nursing for many years (I won't tell you how many 'cause you clowns would start trying to figure out how old I am), so I put my time in. If you figure out my per day rate, it is okay. We just don't work as many days. Most of the teachers have a second job and/or work summer schools.
Down here, we have regular classes scheduled for 180 days/year. Then there is night school, for some high school kid. Saturday school is like detention, but it is open every weekend. Drive by my school any weekend - or even late evenings - there are some teachers there working. Grading papers, putting together the lessons for the next day, putting up new bulletin boards. There are a group of dad's at our school who have asked to be called when the teachers are done for the evening - they take turns coming over and walking them out to their cars (awesome).
And don't forget, the teachers should get hazard pay. They have to deal with some really crazy parents and kids. The nice ones make up for it, but the stories I could tell........ :O

[85Sooner]

And don't forget, the teachers should get hazard pay. They have to deal with some really crazy parents and kids. The nice ones make up for it, but the stories I could tell........ :O


Boy you said a mouth full there. I was shocked how many kids could be very dangerous. Some parents are just out to lunch.

A neighbor of mine was spouting off last week that she was trying to get hold of the school super and he wouldn;t talk to her and she was furious. I was furious for her until she told me why.

She wanted something done because her 12 yo girl took her 300$ ipod to school (which are not allowed at school) and it was stolen. I couldn't believe she wanted the super to do something about it. I just kept my mouth shut.

Best part of the story? She is a teacher at a different school. Jeesh and HAH

[Soonrboy]

A few years ago all the teachers at my building decided we needed to go to year round school...those couple of teachers who didn't realized they could transfer to a different school, really no hard feelings. However, when we polled the parents and asked them, 75 percent of them said no..it would interfere too much or cause their child to burn out on school. I remind you, I work in an elementary setting. I was shocked and amazed.

[BajaOklahoma]

good post, 178 days a year vs the national average of 255 days a year is about a 33 percent increase.no weekends, holidays etc... I have always felt that the teachers job should be a year long thing even though the kids are not in school. They could be doing the admin work in the "school closed" times. Then up the salaries and they would be better in line. Addiionally, there would not be a need for so many admin workers.

Sorry, but the first sentence doesn't make sense to me. Teachers are contract workers. They work X number of days, for Y amount of money that is paid out over 12 months. So they are only being paid for the time they work anyway. I make myself feel better by figuring my per day rate - not too far off what I made in the doctor's office, but way lower than the hospital. But there isn't enough money to drag me back into the hospital.
I am the secondary income earner in my family. My husband pays for our expenses, so my salary pays for college for the kids (ugggh). Many of the teachers are young, single women who have to pay off college debts and live on what they earn. They have second jobs. It is sad, but a fact of life. I encouraged my kids to seek other professions for financial reasons. I am here because I want teacher retirement. And I could go into a long thread on how I am getting rooked by SS because I will get teacher's retirement.

The head of school health is also the head of workman's comp in our district. That used to be tewo separate jobs that they combined - for a minimal increase in salary. They also cut out a secretary. In the last year and a half, they have hired 2 more people to "help out." Some of the things that have been implemented are overdue, but I really admin didn't think our jobs as school nurses were important. (If we do our jobs right, you won't hear too much about us.) So cost cutting there didn't work. But admin is top heavy.

[BajaOklahoma]

A few years ago all the teachers at my building decided we needed to go to year round school...those couple of teachers who didn't realized they could transfer to a different school, really no hard feelings. However, when we polled the parents and asked them, 75 percent of them said no..it would interfere too much or cause their child to burn out on school. I remind you, I work in an elementary setting. I was shocked and amazed.

Many years ago, we started going back to school in early August. A week long Fall Break (I love it), three day weekends here and there (most of which was used as teacher inservice). We get out mid May. At first the parents complained about day care issues, but the day cares have adjusted. Our parents love it now. The idjoits in south Texas realized that they were losing our valuable vacation dollars for August and pushed through a law that school can't start until late August. They are trying for an after Labor Day start (pssst! Idjoits! That means our kids won't get out until June, so you still lose our money).

I love my Fall break.

[fadada1]

School sucks
preach it, brotha:D

going back to what they said on 20/20 - i remember one of the ladies saying that "there are no bad teachers." and one of the problems they were discussing was the principles, for the most part, were unable to fire poor teachers. fact of the matter is, there ARE terrible teachers out there, that ARE screwing up a lot of kids.... or are not giving them the opportunity to learn. which to me, is the real tragedy here.

as some of you have already mentioned, teachers are terribly underpaid. unfortunately, there are some teachers out there that are terribly overpaid because they lack the knowledge/ability to teach.

[BajaOklahoma]

A lot of the distrists, right or wrong, use the standardize that you guys seem to hate as a measure of a good teacher. The idea is that a bad teacher wouldn't have students who did well on the tests. It is an attempt to objectively measure the success of a teacher.

[Cam]

The price of living in Oklahoma is one of the lowest in the country as well, so how is the average pay scale ranked in comparison to the price of living scale in other states?
I've lived in 7 states the last 15-16 years. Over all, I'd put Oklahoma at 3rd most expensive in the list. Obviously, it's all dependant on the local economy at the time. I'm 99.9% sure you'd be hard pressed to find the cost of living in Oklahoma last in all of the US.

[Cam]

The price of living in Oklahoma is one of the lowest in the country as well, so how is the average pay scale ranked in comparison to the price of living scale in other states?
I've lived in 7 states the last 15-16 years. Over all, I'd put Oklahoma at 3rd most expensive in the list. Obviously, it's all dependant on the local economy at the time. I'm 99.9% sure you'd be hard pressed to find the cost of living in Oklahoma last in all of the US.

As far as time off goes, you do realize that teachers have to do home work as well, right? There aren't enough hours in the day for teachers to do grades, progress reports, ect while they're at school. Just like the rest of us, they take work home as well.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Here's a question for teachers and people getting public retirement benefits...

Would you rather get the large retirement benefit and have a lower annual salary or,

Would you rather have more annual salary and a retirement benefit more on par with the rest of the working people (401K and matching funds).

You can only pick one option, which would you choose?

[GDC]

There are bad apples in every profession. When the ****ed up parents stop sending their ****ed up kids to school for the teachers to raise and teach, to everyone's detriment, only then will things improve.

[blueyedsooner]

Most teachers don't do it for the $$$ anyway....obviously! So just be happy that your children will benefit from these wonderful souls that sacrifice alot to make sure your child knows the benchmarks to continue their education. These are people that truly care about you child's well-being, their education, emotions, social skills, motor skills, home life, etc, etc.....


Say what you want, but teachers use alot of their own $$ to make sure your child is learning in anyway they can. They want these kiddos to succeed!

Yes, there are crappy teacher out there and people in it just b/c it's a job.....very sad. These are the same poor souls that would be crappy at any job....they do it b/c it is a J-O-B.


Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but spend a day or two in a classroom and see what you think. See if you have any new respect for a teacher.....

[BajaOklahoma]

Here's a question for teachers and people getting public retirement benefits...

Would you rather get the large retirement benefit and have a lower annual salary or,

Would you rather have more annual salary and a retirement benefit more on par with the rest of the working people (401K and matching funds).

You can only pick one option, which would you choose?


Ummmm, we already have the lower salary and okay retirement. What does make me mad is that teachers now have to choose either teacher retirement or SS benefits - the only group who is restricted like that. If I qualified for SS benefits by paying in for years, in addition to the teacher retirement money I pay in every month, at retirement I must choose to take one or the other. And once the choice is made, it is permanent even if the benefits go through major adjustments.

[Stoop Dawg]

I'm 99.9% sure you'd be hard pressed to find the cost of living in Oklahoma last in all of the US.

I was curious. I couldn't find a complete guide, but this one ranks McAlister, OK as the #1 lowest cost of living city in the United States of America.

http://www.freeusaguide.com/first05.htm

This link says the state of Oklahoma is second lowest - behind Arkansas.

http://www.missourieconomy.org/indicators/cost_of_living/index.stm

[Ike]

A lot of the distrists, right or wrong, use the standardize that you guys seem to hate as a measure of a good teacher. The idea is that a bad teacher wouldn't have students who did well on the tests. It is an attempt to objectively measure the success of a teacher.


there's actually a better way than just looking at the raw test scores. through the sheer number of kids that have taken standardized tests, its possible to get a feeling of how much a kid should improve in a given year based upon their test scores from previous years. looking at the real improvement in test scores versus the expected improvement in test scores is actually a decent, but not perfect, measure of a teachers ability.

[mdklatt]

This is stupid. You try to support and feed your family on teachers pay. You might find it's harder than you think.

A lot of people are in this situation, not just teachers. My sister is an elementary school teacher near Dallas, and she makes more in nine months than I do in twelve even though I've been working six years longer than her. Where's the lottery to increase my salary?

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

Wow my Mom who went to college makes about 15,000 less than my dad who didn't go to college and school teachers are overpaid....color me shocked.

[85Sooner]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but spend a day or two in a classroom and see what you think. See if you have any new respect for a teacher.....


I have (for 4 years) thats where my opinion comes from. JFTR

[1stTimeCaller]

Tech Center teachers make more than regular public school teachers in Oklahoma. Most don't have degrees but do have the necessary certifications to be considered experts in their fields.

Teachers make more money per working hour than most of us on here do. They just don't work near as many hours per year as most of us do.

[OklahomaTuba]

I've always wondered why we have like 500+school districts.

Thats a lot of administration waste that could be used in a classroom or in a teachers pocket IMO.

[GDC]

So we get rid of the whorns and then it becomes rag on teachers day instead?

[mdklatt]

So we get rid of the whorns and then it becomes rag on teachers day instead?

There's a difference between ragging on teachers and questioning why they think they deserve to belong to some sort of privileged class where they make more than anybody else for working far fewer days/year without any worries about being fired for poor performance. Teachers have a lot of responsibility for what they get paid, but so do a lot of other professions. Firefighers don't exactly have summer homes on the French Riviera. And firefighters--like most people--can't take a summer job to supplement their income if they want.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

Most firefighters didn't go to 4 or 5 years of college either

[1stTimeCaller]

Most firefighters didn't go to 4 or 5 years of college either

that means the fire fighters are smarter, no?

My brother has a college degree and is a fire fighter. My mom has a Master's and is in education. My brother gave up a pharmaceutical sales job because he always wanted to be a firefighter. My mom gave up a geology job with some big oil company because she wanted to raise kids and spend summers with us.

Guess which one never bitches about the money they make?

[GDC]

There's a difference between ragging on teachers and questioning why they think they deserve to belong to some sort of privileged class where they make more than anybody else for working far fewer days/year without any worries about being fired for poor performance. Teachers have a lot of responsibility for what they get paid, but so do a lot of other professions. Firefighers don't exactly have summer homes on the French Riviera. And firefighters--like most people--can't take a summer job to supplement their income if they want.

You say "they" in an all-inclusive sense. If you will check your facts, you'll see it's the teacher unions making the noise, and they definitely don't speak for all of us. I teach because I like it. Any teacher gets enough time off they can put some other irons in the fire and make some extra money if they wish. Some of you need to leave the teachers alone and bitch about the attorneys, executives, athletes, and actors who best demonstrate society's skewed priorities.

[Stoop Dawg]

And firefighters--like most people--can't take a summer job to supplement their income if they want.

FWIW, All of the firefighters I know have a second job. :)

But the points are still valid.

Teachers work fewer days than most other jobs - so comparing their pay to other fields needs to take that into account.

The cost of living in Oklahoma is very, very low - so comparisons to teacher pay in other states must take that into account.

I don't know if they are underpaid or not. I just know that some of the comparisons thrown around are wrong.

[GDC]

Bottom line, virtually all people who actually work for a living don't make enough, and many others who contribute very little to society make way too much. Anyone who says teachers are not underpaid is simply ignorant and/or full of ****.

[sanantoniosooner]

Bottom line, virtually all people who actually work for a living don't make enough, and many others who contribute very little to society make way too much. Anyone who says teachers are not underpaid is simply ignorant and/or full of ****.
true dat.

[1stTimeCaller]

any teacher that didn't know that teachers were under paid when they got into teaching and bitch about it now are either ignorant and/or full of ****

[mdklatt]

I don't know if they are underpaid or not. I just know that some of the comparisons thrown around are wrong.

Exactly. Some basic questions never get asked in the rush to throw more and more money into the money pit of public education. We always hear that our teacher salaries are near the bottom of national rankings, but except for Bob Stoops everybody's salary is near the bottom of national rankings. It's Oklahoma.

Before we throw any more funding into the money pit of Oklahoma public education we need to figure out where it's going. Oklahoma's administrative costs for education are way out of line. Get rid of some those 500+ school districts. Here's one that doesn't even seem to have grades 9-12: http://www.zionjets.com/.

[1stTimeCaller]

Exactly. Some basic questions never get asked in the rush to throw more and more money into the money pit of public education. We always hear that our teacher salaries are near the bottom of national rankings, but except for Bob Stoops everybody's salary is near the bottom of national rankings. It's Oklahoma.

Before we throw any more funding into the money pit of Oklahoma public education we need to figure out where it's going. Oklahoma's administrative costs for education are way out of line. Get rid of some those 500+ school districts. Here's one that doesn't even seem to have grades 9-12: http://www.zionjets.com/.

heh. They seem to have 12 teachers for pre-K thru 4th grade. And have 5 people at the administration office.

[Ike]

Exactly. Some basic questions never get asked in the rush to throw more and more money into the money pit of public education. We always hear that our teacher salaries are near the bottom of national rankings, but except for Bob Stoops everybody's salary is near the bottom of national rankings. It's Oklahoma.

Before we throw any more funding into the money pit of Oklahoma public education we need to figure out where it's going. Oklahoma's administrative costs for education are way out of line. Get rid of some those 500+ school districts. Here's one that doesn't even seem to have grades 9-12: http://www.zionjets.com/.


education needs a massive overhaul. unfortunately, nobody has the cajones to implement this...

the thing that makes me think that teachers are underpaid for the job they do is the fact that almost everywhere across the country, we hear news of 'teacher shortages.' generally, when there is a shortage of people to fill any kind of job, that means that the pay is too low....

[Mjcpr]

generally, when there is a shortage of people to fill any kind of job, that means that the pay is too low....

Except for nurses.

[GDC]

heh. They seem to have 12 teachers for pre-K thru 4th grade. And have 5 people at the administration office.

You haven't seen anything. Another school in our county, Cave Springs, got shut down by armed federal agents the other day. And yes, we're just about the last state with the small dependent school districts.

[1stTimeCaller]

You haven't seen anything. Another school in our county, Cave Springs, got shut down by armed federal agents the other day. And yes, we're just about the last state with the small dependent school districts.

Whoa. What did the get shut down for?

[GDC]

Whoa. What did the get shut down for?



Feds seize records at Cave Springs School
By Donna Hales
Phoenix Staff Writer


Federal agents seized federal grant records from Cave Springs School in Adair County this week while executing a search warrant.
Cave Springs is a dependent school located southwest of Stilwell.

Steven Anderson, assistant special agent in charge of the Inspector General’s Office of the U.S. Department of Education’s regional office in Dallas, was accompanied by more than 10 agents during the search.

Anderson called the sheriff’s office shortly after 5 a.m. Wednesday and asked that a sheriff’s deputy meet agents at the school by 7 a.m.

The deputy arrived before that time and agents already were executing the warrant.

Anderson referred the Phoenix to the U.S. Attorney’s office in Muskogee for comment Friday.

U.S. Attorney Sheldon “Shelly” Sperling said he could neither confirm nor deny a federal investigation at the school.

“When federal search warrants are executed, it typically is part of an ongoing investigation,” Sperling said.

“We don’t confirm nor deny that we’re involved in any particular matter under investigation,” said Mary Michelson, media spokeswoman for the U.S. Department of Education’s Inspector General’s Office.

A woman who described herself only as “Roberta” answered the school phone Friday. She said she was a long-time secretary at the school and confirmed federal agents seized federal program records. She declined additional comment.

Cave Springs Superintendent Steve Adair would not say Friday what records had been seized or if he had been aware the school was under investigation before agents arrived.

Adair referred the Phoenix to his attorney, Rex Earl Starr of Stilwell, for further comment. Starr’s secretary said he was in trial in Arkansas on Friday. He did not return a message left on his cell phone.

Records at the State Department of Education reflect that the school of less than 300 students receives $1,183,000 in federal funds, most of which is grant money.

You can reach reporter Donna Hales at 684-2923 or [email protected].



Originally published December 17, 2005

http://www.muskogeephoenix.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200551216039

[Stoop Dawg]

any teacher that didn't know that teachers were under paid when they got into teaching and bitch about it now are either ignorant and/or full of ****

On the one hand, it's a good point. You should always check out the salary of the field you choose. It's just common sense.

OTOH, there's nothing wrong with asking for a raise. Of course, there's a difference between "bitching" and "asking for a raise".

[1stTimeCaller]

IMO, there are very few teachers that are bitching but they are pretty loud.

[Cam]

I was curious. I couldn't find a complete guide, but this one ranks McAlister, OK as the #1 lowest cost of living city in the United States of America.

http://www.freeusaguide.com/first05.htm

This link says the state of Oklahoma is second lowest - behind Arkansas.

http://www.missourieconomy.org/indicators/cost_of_living/index.stm

Who the hell lives in McAlister? Please tell me you've been there so that you know the difference between McAlister and OKC or Tulsa.

I'm sure that I could find a study that says otherwise if I looked hard enough. All I can go by is what I have personally seen and paid for stuff. When we moved back to Ok a year and a half ago, houses in OKC were 15-20% than they were in Austin. :eek:

Being a data geek, I know that the one very bad thing about crunching numbers is that you can pick which ever data sets you want to give you what ever answer it is you're looking for.

[MojoRisen]

I want to get a 4-6 year degree and become a teacher, I see that we only make x amount of money, I have summers off and I can raise a family easily.

I have stability, great healthcare for my family, and enough monotony to manage my day with minimal stress and raise a family.

Don't work in gangsta town usa and you will be fine.

If you wanted 6 figures well spend 6 years in Acquisitions, Law and finance. Drink Mallox regulary and worry about shiaate constantly... Welcome!

Bottom line is most of the world salaries are measured by what type of revenue they generate- I believe salaries for Teachers should stay up with cost of living increase.. Name one teach who said I am going to become a millonaire Teacher kids math.

They all wanted the stability, now that they have a union- they think they have leverage. Simple..

[Stoop Dawg]

Who the hell lives in McAlister? Please tell me you've been there so that you know the difference between McAlister and OKC or Tulsa.

I provided a state comparison link as well. I don't feel like spending $70 or so to buy the "official" cost of living comparison index just to prove what is already obvious. If you want to go on thinking that Oklahoma is not one of the cheapest places in the country to live, well, okay, good for you.

[GDC]

The people who most often criticize teachers are worthless POS who have high paying jobs that don't actually contribute much to society, and they're only concerned about their taxes, not childrens' educations, anyway.

[Dio]

Anybody who thinks home-school kids don't have social skills haven't heard my girls talk, and talk, and talk...

[Cam]

I provided a state comparison link as well. I don't feel like spending $70 or so to buy the "official" cost of living comparison index just to prove what is already obvious. If you want to go on thinking that Oklahoma is not one of the cheapest places in the country to live, well, okay, good for you.
My point is that there are inherent flaws in those calculations. When you take the average of 100's of averages, your numbers get skewed, period. The problem is that this is the most widely accepted way of doing the study. It's not that it's necessarily the best.

The largest falacy in those is that it takes the information from towns such as McAlister and many, many smaller towns and spreads the information over the entire state. I know for a fact that the house I'm living in would easily cost me 75-100K less in South Dakota, Iowa, and few other states. Do you really think it's that expensive to live in Wyoming or South Dakota?

I can tell you from my experience that 95% Iowa, South Dakota, North Dakota, Wyoming, etc are much less expensive than Oklahoma.

[Stoop Dawg]

Do you really think it's that expensive to live in Wyoming or South Dakota?

http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.html?step=result&current_salary=100000&from_city=Oklahoma+City+OK&to_city=Sioux+Falls+SD&x=37&y=7

http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.html?step=result&current_salary=100000&from_city=Oklahoma+City+OK&to_city=Cheyenne+WY&x=21&y=13



If you move from Oklahoma City OK to Cheyenne WY...

Housing will cost: 34.494% higher

[Cam]

I worked with 30 plus statisticians, many of which worked for the Gov't agencies that provide the fomulas, and all but one say the current method of modeling cost of living is bunk.

As I stated earlier, the problem with their formula is that it takes the entire state's data. The better way of doing the statistical comparison is to do it by the first 3 digits of the zip code.

This method is used in many other applications and has been proven time and again to be more accurate. The problem is changing the "we've always done it that way" mentality of the companies that use the COLA calcs. They're not going to do it because it would cost them more money.

Believe what you want dude, I can tell you by own experiences, both professional and personal, that there are 1,000's of places cheaper to live than OKC.

The same COLA formula that you're so sold on had OKC housing being 90% of Austin's when we moved here. Turned out OKC's was 115% of Austin's. It's been the same way each time we've moved. Trust those if you want, it's your money.

[Stoop Dawg]

As I stated earlier, the problem with their formula is that it takes the entire state's data.

Wrong.

http://www.coli.org/faq.asp



Believe what you want dude, I can tell you by own experiences, both professional and personal, that there are 1,000's of places cheaper to live than OKC.

The same COLA formula that you're so sold on had OKC housing being 90% of Austin's when we moved here. Turned out OKC's was 115% of Austin's. It's been the same way each time we've moved. Trust those if you want, it's your money.

You know what, it doesn't even matter. Let's assume you are 100% correct - my original point still stands. Comparing teacher salaries in Oklahoma to teacher salaries in other states is bogus. Since there is evidently no way to compare COL then there is also no way to compare salaries. As I said before, I have no idea if Oklahoma teachers are underpaid or overpaid. All I know is that saying "Oklahoma ranks lowest of all states in teacher salary" is a meaningless statement. Maybe the teachers in all the other states are overpaid. Maybe Oklahoma is a cheaper place to live (objections from internet statisticians not-withstanding). Maybe the teachers in Oklahoma should move to Austin where it's so much cheaper to live. I know I was eager to get out of Oklahoma and took a job in Ft Lauderdale as a software developer. When I moved back to OK I took a 45% pay cut - and my standard of living improved. What I *didn't* do is whine that software developers in Oklahoma make so much less money than those in Ft Lauderdale....

[critical_phil]

entire 20/20 segment here:

http://www.youtube.com/w/20/20-Stupid-in-America?v=9cW2eKeGQiU&feature=Views&page=4&t=m&f=b