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Pieces Hit
1/12/2006, 11:07 AM
CNN Report: 100 dead in Hajj stampede

Dozens of people were reported killed today in a stampede during a symbolic stoning ritual at the Hajj pilgrimage in Saudi Arabia. Government officials said the number of people killed was unknown, but one unnamed medical source told Reuters more than 100 were dead. "It is more than 100," said the medic in Mena, outside Mecca. Reuters earlier said its journalists counted at least 50 bodies lined up on the ground and covered in white shrouds. The stampede, like others in the past, happened during the stone-throwing ritual in which the pilgrims stone a symbolic devil.

http://www.cnn.com/


Dumb, ain't they?

Dio
1/12/2006, 11:32 AM
[Van Halen] Sto-nin' with the dev-il [/Van Halen]

VeeJay
1/12/2006, 12:09 PM
And we proclaim that Christians are nuts!

OK, just imagine the jokes and sarcasm abound on Air America if a Billy Graham Crusade produced 345 deaths.

I'm just sayin.'

Pieces Hit
1/12/2006, 12:14 PM
Scary thing is the call US the Great Satan.

I hope one of em don't throw a rock at me.

handcrafted
1/12/2006, 12:17 PM
I guess this is a good answer to the question "Aren't all religions basically the same?"

Pieces Hit
1/12/2006, 12:19 PM
What?

You didn't hear about the terrible communion stampede down at St. Anthony's?

mdklatt
1/12/2006, 12:23 PM
And we proclaim that Christians are nuts!



The correct answer is D: All of the above. :D

BoomerJack
1/12/2006, 12:38 PM
CNN Report: 100 dead in Hajj stampede

Dozens of people were reported killed today in a stampede during a symbolic stoning ritual at the Hajj pilgrimage in Saudi Arabia. Government officials said the number of people killed was unknown, but one unnamed medical source told Reuters more than 100 were dead. "It is more than 100," said the medic in Mena, outside Mecca. Reuters earlier said its journalists counted at least 50 bodies lined up on the ground and covered in white shrouds. The stampede, like others in the past, happened during the stone-throwing ritual in which the pilgrims stone a symbolic devil.

http://www.cnn.com/


Dumb, ain't they?

Yeah they're just as dumb as those 150 - 200 or so that were in that Iranian commercial airliner that was accidently shot down by a US naval vessel back in the early 1980's during the Iraq-Iran war. That flight was full of pilgrims on their way to Saudi Arabia to participate in the same ritual.

Like my above comments, I certainly hope that your "dumb" comment was typed with tongue firmly in cheek.

Pieces Hit
1/12/2006, 12:43 PM
I always thought they would really get mad if someone blew up that Mecca thing.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/gulf/images/mecca-26.jpg

You think they'd get mad?

Jimminy Crimson
1/12/2006, 12:45 PM
I always thought they would really get mad if someone blew up that Mecca thing.

You think they'd get mad?

I'd laugh. ROTFLOL

Pieces Hit
1/12/2006, 12:46 PM
Yeah they're just as dumb as those 150 - 200 or so that were in that Iranian commercial airliner that was accidently shot down by a US naval vessel back in the early 1980's during the Iraq-Iran war. That flight was full of pilgrims on their way to Saudi Arabia to participate in the same ritual.

Like my above comments, I certainly hope that your "dumb" comment was typed with tongue firmly in cheek.

And no, I meant they are dumb to stampede each other at this ritual.
It's not the first time either.

BoomerJack
1/12/2006, 12:56 PM
Point taken, Pieces Hit. I, too, can't understand why/how this keeps happening year after year after year. Thirty-five years ago when I was throwing papers in Tulsa I was reading about these tragedies involving this pilgrimmage. However, I do believe that the Saudi kingdom has taken steps to make this safer and somewhat easier. I don't have any numbers but I believe that the frequency of these things has decreased over the years with a corresponding decreas of fatalities/injuries.

Ike
1/12/2006, 01:49 PM
Point taken, Pieces Hit. I, too, can't understand why/how this keeps happening year after year after year. Thirty-five years ago when I was throwing papers in Tulsa I was reading about these tragedies involving this pilgrimmage. However, I do believe that the Saudi kingdom has taken steps to make this safer and somewhat easier. I don't have any numbers but I believe that the frequency of these things has decreased over the years with a corresponding decreas of fatalities/injuries.

since they have that stupid religious law that says you have to take one of these pilgrimages at least once in your life, the only thing the Saudis could really do to make it safer is to build a Mecca2.0

Okla-homey
1/12/2006, 02:30 PM
But the good news is they all go directly to heaven and get to make love with 70 Virginians...or something like that.

Pieces Hit
1/12/2006, 02:33 PM
Oh when the saints...

C&CDean
1/12/2006, 03:13 PM
You know this is really kinda humorous. When these morons die, it's "a bunch of martyrs/worshippers."

When people die at, say, oh, Mardi Gras, or running with the bulls at Pamplona, or of alcohol poisoning during St. Patty's day parties they're just "dumbasses." I think people killed at these religious events should also get martyr status and get at least a couple of ol' dead whores for their reward. And everybody knows a couple hookers trumps 70 virgins every day of the week.

BoomerJack
1/12/2006, 03:26 PM
"Stupid law" and "when these morons die". Wow, can't you just feel the love.

Pieces Hit
1/12/2006, 03:28 PM
Next thing ya know someone will mention them crazy fundamentalist ones.

C&CDean
1/12/2006, 03:30 PM
Yeah Jack, there's something about **********s who have no respect for human life that make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. GADOCADWI.

BoomerJack
1/12/2006, 03:54 PM
Yeah Jack, there's something about **********s who have no respect for human life that make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. GADOCADWI.

That's a pretty broad brush you're using there, Dean. Please tell me that you don't believe that those unfortunate people that perished in that stampede didn't have respect for human life.

Pieces Hit
1/12/2006, 03:58 PM
They respect their lives, as long as it's in their sect, it seems.

As for US infidels, we deserve to die.

C&CDean
1/12/2006, 04:40 PM
That's a pretty broad brush you're using there, Dean. Please tell me that you don't believe that those unfortunate people that perished in that stampede didn't have respect for human life.

Why am I picturing you typing this while you're wringing damp hands, sitting in an abortion clinic, working on your anti-Bush/Rainbow Coalition/Save the Humpbacks/PETA/gay rights speech for the meeting tonight?

What do I know about the individual people who got stomped? Not a damned thing - other than the God they worship is the same God who's telling them to kill every American/infidel they can.

So, let's put it this way. People who attend these types of gatherings - for these types of reasons - and achieve these types of results - are Darwin nominees in my book. Simple enough?

BoomerJack
1/12/2006, 05:31 PM
"What do I know about the individual people who got stomped? Not a damned thing - other than the God they worship is the same God who's telling them to kill every American/infidel they can."



"So, let's put it this way. People who attend these types of gatherings - for these types of reasons - and achieve these types of results - are Darwin nominees in my book. Simple enough?"

BoomerJack
1/12/2006, 06:02 PM
C&CDean:
"What do I know about the individual people who got stomped? Not a damned thing - other than the God they worship is the same God who's telling them to kill every American/infidel they can."

Both of us know that it's fanatics like Bin Laden and others that are spewing that kind of hatred from a twisted interpretation of Islam.

"So, let's put it this way. People who attend these types of gatherings - for these types of reasons - and achieve these types of results - are Darwin nominees in my book. Simple enough?"

From my limited understanding of Islam, this "type of gathering", the hajj, is the most sacred ritual a Muslim can perform in his/her lifetime. The reason they do so is to ostensibly fulfill their obligation under Muslim law or precepts. I fail to see how that relates to Charles Darwin.

As for the first paragraph of your post, I could care less how you picture me. There's your big brush again. All I was doing in my initial posts was expressing my regret that these folks (about 345 according the NYTimes article I last saw) lost their lives.

handcrafted
1/12/2006, 06:17 PM
Both of us know that it's fanatics like Bin Laden and others that are spewing that kind of hatred from a twisted interpretation of Islam.

That's the Islamic Society of North America's spin. The conclusion that the homicide bombers are operating on a "twisted" interpretation of the Koran, is arguable. It could be just as likely that the Muslims who *aren't* trying to blow us up are not fulfilling their religious duty. That's the problem with the Koran: it's internally inconsistent. It was written by one guy, so there's not anything to compare it to, to try to figure out what he really meant by "jihad" and slaying one's enemies.

mdklatt
1/12/2006, 06:20 PM
That's the problem with the Koran: it's internally inconsistent.

*cough*

handcrafted
1/12/2006, 06:25 PM
*cough*

Don't start with me today, md. I'm getting ready to go to my Bible class and I could argue circles around you right now. :D

TUSooner
1/12/2006, 11:04 PM
This has been hinted at, at least, in this thread, but I heard it stated plainly on a radio news show (NPR, I think): Many pilgrims go with the hope, if not the outright intent, of getting dead at this deal. They apparently think it's a good way to die... the 70 Virginians thing and martyrdom, etc. A bit contrived, if you ask me, but better than if they'd blown themselves up in a crowd of infidel shoppers.

SoonerBorn68
1/12/2006, 11:35 PM
"Stupid law" and "when these morons die". Wow, can't you just feel the love.

I have no love for people who actively support/don't try to stop their leaders/followers who try to kill me or my family.

If only a little over a hundred died and most that attend wanted to, I'd call it a failure. Maybe they need to practice more.

LoyalFan
1/13/2006, 08:27 AM
If we get REALLY lucky, the "Reverend" Phelps and his mob of sickos will stampede all over themselves.
I swear to The Almighty and the Ghost of Bud, if I'm ever at a soldier's funeral and these cretins appear, I'm going to jail for at least one count of assault, more if possible.
(Mutter, mumble...)

LF

Desert Sapper
1/13/2006, 09:20 AM
A couple of observations:

1. The Hajj happens once a year - we aren't talking about a few hundred or even a few thousand people here. We're talking about hundreds of thousands to millions of people in one place at one time. If you've ever been to a big rock concert (outdoor type), you know how dangerous it can get. I won't try to compare it to anything Christian, because we can't get that many people together for anything.

2. Islam is not against believers in God. I've said before that the Muslims who are true to their faith respect Christians and Jews. The Koran tells them that Christians and Jews have an equal chance to reach heaven.

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

The big problem in Islam is the same big problem that we have in Christianity. There are great divides between the different sects of belief. If Christian history had no violence, we would have room to talk. Unfortunately, people have a way of interpreting things for their own benefit. The majority of Christians supported the Nazis before Pearl Harbor. Even before 9-11, the majority of Islam did not support terrorism.

Desert Sapper
1/13/2006, 09:30 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the Hajj symbolizes?

Eid-ul-Adha (the Festival of Sacrifice) is celebrated throughout the Muslim world as a commemoration of Prophet Ibrahim's (Abraham - remember him from Sunday school?) willingness to sacrifice his son (Isaac - remember him?) for God. Hajj (pilgrimage) means visiting the House of Allah (Ka'bah), and performing all those worshipful acts which have been ordered to be performed there (and there are a lot of them).

I am no Muslim, but I respect their dedication. They pray 5 times a day, and wash up before every prayer. I wish I could say I did either. The fact is that I have fought against extremists (and nearly lost my life to them on more than one occasion), but I am friends with many Muslims. There's a difference. The chasm between the two is so vast you could never imagine unless you have been there.

Pieces Hit
1/13/2006, 09:48 AM
Thank You for all you have done.

JohnnyMack
1/13/2006, 09:52 AM
Religion kills people. I'm gonna go get more doughnuts.

C&CDean
1/13/2006, 09:56 AM
Sapper,

Thanks for your service. And thanks for attempting to understand Islam. I work with several muslims, and I do not fear them or loathe them. However, I sometimes think about it like this:

What if it comes down to us vs. them? In many parts of the world it has. Would my coworkers come in and blow themselves up if their mosque leaders decided it was the thing to do and put out the fatwah? If I went to church, and the preacher said "go kill every muslim you see and you'll go to the highest perch in heaven" I'd be like "**** you man, and if I see y'all going out doing it, I'm gonna join the other side."

People who do stupid **** and risk their lives (going to Hajj) pretty much deserve what they get. Especially if they're really wanting to martyr themselves (which many are). I have to look at it as "well, there's 345 less sumbitches who might blow innocent people up." Sorry if I can't be all grieving and sad about it.

C&CDean
1/13/2006, 09:59 AM
Religion kills people. I'm gonna go get more doughnuts.

Semi-correct there honey. People who are brainwashed by their religion kill people. And I'll take a raspberry filled puff.

Pieces Hit
1/13/2006, 10:02 AM
The facts is: We are different human beings and will never understand their mentality.

I still can't get past the reasoning about Shiites killing Sunni's or whatever because they have a different slant on their beliefs.

That would be like the dang Baptists blowing up the Pentacostals.

It's just idiotic.

Desert Sapper
1/13/2006, 10:10 AM
I still can't get past the reasoning about Shiites killing Sunni's or whatever because they have a different slant on their beliefs.

That would be like the dang Baptists blowing up the Pentacostals.



Or like Catholics blowing up Protestants. Something like Ireland. Or maybe like the last 4-500 years that protestant Christianity has existed and the inherent disagreements between them (and a lot of blood shed in between). If we are 800 years older than Islam and just stopped killing each other a few years ago, why is it so hard to imagine?

Desert Sapper
1/13/2006, 10:19 AM
If I went to church, and the preacher said "go kill every muslim you see and you'll go to the highest perch in heaven" I'd be like "**** you man, and if I see y'all going out doing it, I'm gonna join the other side."

Which is pretty much why we have a few thousand terrorists/insurgents and not 200 million.


People who do stupid **** and risk their lives (going to Hajj) pretty much deserve what they get. Especially if they're really wanting to martyr themselves (which many are). I have to look at it as "well, there's 345 less sumbitches who might blow innocent people up." Sorry if I can't be all grieving and sad about it.

That's a pretty ignorant statement. Is it stupid to take part in something religious? What if you went to Promise Keepers at Lloyd-Noble and there was a fire. If a few hundred people got trampled on the way out, would they be stupid for 'risking their lives'?

Many is probably a big overstatement considering how many Muslims there are in the world (more than there are Christians) and how many want to 'martyr themselves' (which is in disagreement with the Koran forbading suicide) or kill innocent folks (which the Koran also strictly forbids).

People follow the leadership they believe in. Was David Koresh a shining example of a Christian leader? Or Jim Jones? People still followed them. I think the bottom line is that people are stupid across the board. And if they get fired up enough, they do stupid things.

Oh, and thanks for your service, too, brother. ;)

Pieces Hit
1/13/2006, 10:27 AM
I haven' seen too many Muslim leaders in the US or abroad up in arms about their radical bretheren's mischevious behavior.

What's up with that?

Desert Sapper
1/13/2006, 10:53 AM
I haven' seen too many Muslim leaders in the US or abroad up in arms about their radical bretheren's mischevious behavior.

What's up with that?

The Arab Muslim has a different way of thinking. Generally speaking, they think it is enough to say 'We don't condone terrorism or terrorist acts'. Most of the big Muslim leaders have said that. Most of the small mosques say it, too.

The problem is that we put it in our terms. We know that if somebody blows up an abortion clinic in this country, the next day CNN and Fox News and everybody else will have preachers and priests on, and they will all say "we don't agree with abortion, but killing of any kind is bad." Fiery preachers would condemn the killing in their fiery ways, and we would see that on TV, because cameras are in those churches.

Mosques don't generally allow lots of cameras, and even if they did, the delivery of the sermon during the Jummah prayer (church time) would never be fiery and would usually be in either Arabic or a common local language (could be english in this country, but not always).

The condemnation is generally there (think about how many more muslims have been killed by terrorists than christians and you'll get the idea why), but the fired up attitude is just not culturally common.