Flying Helicopters

[Harry Beanbag]

Anybody here do it or no anybody who does?

[mdklatt]

Anybody here do it or no anybody who does?

My uncle (in law?) was a helicopter pilot in the NY Army National Guard. He recently transferred to a non-aviation unit closer to home. I've always wanted to get a helicopter add-on to my airplane certificate. Maybe someday when I've got $10,000 to burn.

[Harry Beanbag]

I've been looking really hard to make a career change. They've been playing commercials on the radio here for a commercial helicopter flight school so I was just wondering what it would actually be like, would it be worth it, etc. The school's website says future career opportunites are expected to skyrocket and the money sounds really good. The pricetag on the training sounds a little overwhelming though ($64,000).

[fadada1]

one of our members here at the club is a chopper pilot. does the medivac stuff. flew in vietnam as well... was shot at a few times. said it wasn't very fun. who knew.

seems to really enjoy what he's doing now (as opposed to nam).

[mdklatt]

I've been looking really hard to make a career change. They've been playing commercials on the radio here for a commercial helicopter flight school so I was just wondering what it would actually be like, would it be worth it, etc. The school's website says future career opportunites are expected to skyrocket and the money sounds really good. The pricetag on the training sounds a little overwhelming though ($64,000).

$64,000! Yikes! Does that take you through an instructor certificate or just commerical? It seems like the major industry for helicopter pilots (other than the Army) is offshore oil platforms. Not many of those in Arizona. So, on a smaller scale you've got EMS, law enforcement, charter/transportation, and flight instruction. There's a homebuilt helicopter manufacturer in Mesa (Rotorway) that would need demonstrator pilots and the like.

Aviation is a growing field overall, despite the troubles with the major passenger airlines.

[Harry Beanbag]

$64,000! Yikes! Does that take you through an instructor certificate or just commerical? It seems like the major industry for helicopter pilots (other than the Army) is offshore oil platforms. Not many of those in Arizona. So, on a smaller scale you've got EMS, law enforcement, charter/transportation, and flight instruction. There's a homebuilt helicopter manufacturer in Mesa (Rotorway) that would need demonstrator pilots and the like.

Aviation is a growing field overall, despite the troubles with the major passenger airlines.


Silver State Helicopters’ Professional Pilot Instructor Program:
Private License Included
Commercial License Included
Certified Flight Instructor Rating Included
Instrument Rating Included
External Load Training Included
Books and Materials Included
Total: $64,900.00

http://www.silverstatehelicopters.com/flight_program.htm



The freaky thing, at least to me, was that after you finish all your training you don't have enough flight time to get a real job so they hire you as a flight instructor. :eek:

[mdklatt]

The freaky thing, at least to me, was that after you finish all your training you don't have enough flight time to get a real job so they hire you as a flight instructor. :eek:

Yep, the irony of aviation--flight instruction is an entry-level position. :D

Read the fine print. It probably won't be full time if they do hire you, and even full-time flight instructors just about qualify for food stamps. At least in the fixed-wing world--maybe helicopters are different. Aviation is an employer's market because most pilots would jump at a chance to fly for free, much less actually getting paid to do it.

[Beano's Fourth Chin]

In arizona, I would imagine that the grand canyon helicopter tours pay well. I think we payed $75 each for a 30 minute tour.

[GottaHavePride]

I used to know a professor at OU who was a helicopter pilot and former Marine sniper, from what I understand. He turned down a job offer to fly helicopters back and forth to the oil rigs out of New Orleans to work at OU. But he got a better job at USC starting this year.

[mdklatt]

In arizona, I would imagine that the grand canyon helicopter tours pay well. I think we payed $75 each for a 30 minute tour.

How many customers per flight? A turbine helicopter is going to cost north of $500/hour to operate, not including fixed costs like debt service and insurance, and unexpected maintenance costs.

[C&CDean]

In arizona, I would imagine that the grand canyon helicopter tours pay well. I think we payed $75 each for a 30 minute tour.

What a lazy ***. You're supposed to walk down in the canyon, not fly over it. Geez.

[Beano's Fourth Chin]

What a lazy ***. You're supposed to walk down in the canyon, not fly over it. Geez.

What do you mean lazy? It was pedal powered. My legs still burn.

[Beano's Fourth Chin]

How many customers per flight? A turbine helicopter is going to cost north of $500/hour to operate, not including fixed costs like debt service and insurance, and unexpected maintenance costs.

You are so full of crap. Those helicopters cost anywhere from 235-300 per hour in 2006 dollars to run. This was about 8 years ago, so you can reduce that amount by 35.2 percent to get the actual figures at the time. They're making a hefty profit, believe me.

[Harry Beanbag]

Yep, the irony of aviation--flight instruction is an entry-level position. :D

Read the fine print. It probably won't be full time if they do hire you, and even full-time flight instructors just about qualify for food stamps. At least in the fixed-wing world--maybe helicopters are different. Aviation is an employer's market because most pilots would jump at a chance to fly for free, much less actually getting paid to do it.


They're having a seminar tonight so I'm gonna check it out.

[KABOOKIE]

Don't. Do. It.

The US Army puts out 3,000 fully trained helo-pilots a year. After serving a stint in the Army these "20 something's" have 8 bajillion hours and more experience than you off the street through flight school will ever get. The helicopter industry is an absolutely saturated market with Army guys. Now that being said, it is possible to do it this way and $64G's doesn't seem too out of wack for everything they're offering you. Just remember everything they says is to get you into their school and forking over the money.

Now, keep in mind what's out there else wise. If you serious about changing your career and assuming you aren't already a commercial pilot take a look at what ATP Academy offers.

[Harry Beanbag]

In arizona, I would imagine that the grand canyon helicopter tours pay well. I think we payed $75 each for a 30 minute tour.


I envision quite a few helicopters flying around the Mexican border as well under government contract.

[KABOOKIE]

You are so full of crap. Those helicopters cost anywhere from 235-300 per hour in 2006 dollars to run. This was about 8 years ago, so you can reduce that amount by 35.2 percent to get the actual figures at the time. They're making a hefty profit, believe me.


That's why I routinley see "Helicopter Flight Tours" in Fortune 500 magazines. I bet most flight tour places operate on budgets of <5% profits.

[Harry Beanbag]

Don't. Do. It.

The US Army puts out 3,000 fully trained helo-pilots a year. After serving a stint in the Army these "20 something's" have 8 bajillion hours and more experience than you off the street through flight school will ever get. The helicopter industry is an absolutely saturated market with Army guys. Now that being said, it is possible to do it this way and $64G's doesn't seem too out of wack for everything they're offering you. Just remember everything they says is to get you into their school and forking over the money.

Now, keep in mind what's out there else wise. If you serious about changing your career and assuming you aren't already a commercial pilot take a look at what ATP Academy offers.


That's kind of what I was thinking. That's also the reason I posted this, just wondering if everything I read was just propaganda or if there was some truth to it. It's a pretty huge investment so I'm not going to rush into it.

What's the ATP Academy?

[1stTimeCaller]

Beanowned!!!!!!!

Helicopter Costs
These figures are from a 2000 Field Research Corporation survey.
Updates and information on additional helicopters are welcome.

Helicopter Seats Price Operating Cost
(hourly) Power (HP)
Bell B206B-3 5 $791,000 $280 420
Enstrom F280FX 3 $300,000 $150 225
Enstrom 480B 5 $625,000 $240 305
Eurocopter EC120 5 $1,037,000 $320 504
McDonnell-Douglas MD520N 5 $996,000 $300 425
Robinson R-44 4 $325,000 $160 225
Schweizer 300C 3 $254,000 $143 190
Schweizer 330SP 4 $573,000 $240 235

facts and figures from http://www.rotorshop.com/helocosts.html

[mdklatt]

You are so full of crap. Those helicopters cost anywhere from 235-300 per hour in 2006 dollars to run.

That's only a little more than flying a piston twin airplane, and turbines are more expensive than pistons and helicopters are a lot more expensive than airplanes if you include maintenance costs. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm curious about where you got those numbers.

[KABOOKIE]

Beanowned!!!!!!!


facts and figures from http://www.rotorshop.com/helocosts.html


Keep in mind hourly operating cost don't account for pilot's/mechanics/administrative salaries, insurance, hangar space, etc...

[1stTimeCaller]

http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/en/aircraft/commercial/pdf/206B3_PDB_low.pdf

scroll down to page 300/306 , page 10-2. The Bell Jet Ranger III O&M costs are less than $200/hr. I have no idea what a pilot makes so tack that on there.

[KABOOKIE]

That's kind of what I was thinking. That's also the reason I posted this, just wondering if everything I read was just propaganda or if there was some truth to it. It's a pretty huge investment so I'm not going to rush into it.

What's the ATP Academy?



www.allatps.com

[1stTimeCaller]

Keep in mind hourly operating cost don't account for pilot's/mechanics/administrative salaries, insurance, hangar space, etc...

true, but mdklatt said that
'A turbine helicopter is going to cost north of $500/hour to operate, not including fixed costs like debt service and insurance, and unexpected maintenance costs.'

Beans is correct.

but I'm just stirring the pot. Please do not let me bother you like I do XTR.

[Harry Beanbag]

www.allatps.com (http://www.allatps.com)


Thanks.

[KABOOKIE]

true, but mdklatt said that
'A turbine helicopter is going to cost north of $500/hour to operate, not including fixed costs like debt service and insurance, and unexpected maintenance costs.'

Beans is correct.

but I'm just stirring the pot. Please do not let me bother you like I do XTR.

True dat.

And you'll only start to bother me if I find out you're sleeping with Jack Ingram. :D

[Beano's Fourth Chin]

That's only a little more than flying a piston twin airplane, and turbines are more expensive than pistons and helicopters are a lot more expensive than airplanes if you include maintenance costs. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm curious about where you got those numbers.

Yeah, I pretty much just made them up. I have no clue what I'm talking about.

[mdklatt]

http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/en/aircraft/commercial/pdf/206B3_PDB_low.pdf



My $500/hour estimate was an educated guess, so I could very well be wrong. However, the document you linked must be old; they're using $1.50/gallon to estimate fuels costs. Ha!

The fuel burn is listed as 28 gal/hr (which is a lot lower than I would have guessed) so we'll use that. As of Oct 16, Jet-A was going for $3.75/gal at Grand Canyon Airport, so that's $105/hour for fuel. If you assume that fuel costs today represent the same percentage of O&M that they did when that document was written, today's direct cost is $490/hour (105/42*196). That's probably on the high side because fuel has gone up faster than everything else recently. Keep in mind that that number doesn't include any indirect operating costs. Also, the air tour guys probably aren't paying retail for fuel, so YMMV yadda yadda yadda.

[1stTimeCaller]

Like I said, I was just trying to stir the pot.

I'd rather drive my Ferarri than fly anyways.

[KABOOKIE]

I'd rather drive my Ferarri than fly anyways.


A pilot would never utter such words..... :D

[1stTimeCaller]

you obviously do not own a Ferrari ;)

[KABOOKIE]

you obviously do not own a Ferrari ;)


Oh yeah?!?!??!?

John Travolta has a Ferrari and this is on the front!

http://www.acespilotshop.com/images/products/gifts/licenseplate-i'dratherbeflying.jpg


:D

[mdklatt]

you obviously do not own a Ferrari ;)

You've obviously never flown an airplane. :texan:

[1stTimeCaller]

Kabookie and Travolta sittin in a tree.....

seriously, did I say Ferarri? I meant Pontiac. They're pretty close and I can't really tell the difference.

[KABOOKIE]

Kabookie and Travolta sittin in a tree.....

seriously, did I say Ferarri? I meant Pontiac. They're pretty close and I can't really tell the difference.

I thought the below-average person couldn't tell the difference between Pontiacs and Cadillacs? :confused:

[1stTimeCaller]

I'm obviously the exception... wait, what did you say?

[KABOOKIE]

See attached file. Only 1 helo pilot was hired in the month of December as compared to 550 airplane pilots. For the 2005 year, 186 helo pilots vs. 10203.


Pilot Hiring - Summary 2005
Mon, 16 Jan '06

As forecasted by AIR, Inc. the airline industry hired more than 10,000 pilots in 2005. The Nationals lead the way by adding 3,193 pilots, followed by the Majors with 2,498, the jet Operators with 1,592, and the Non-Jet Operators with 1,480. One hundred and fifteen out of the 195 airlines that report to AIR, Inc. monthly, Majors to the Startup carriers, have already told AIR, Inc. that they plan on hiring approximately 6,700 in 2006 - 2,500 of those are from the Major carriers alone.
FedEx, the world's number one air-express courier, posted a 33% increase in profits for the second quarter that ended November 30. Net income rose to $471 million over $354 million during the same period last year. They plan on hiring between 300 - 350 pilots in '06.
American Airlines (AMR) said on December 22 that it would post slightly higher unit costs in the fourth quarter of 2005. AMR expects to end the year with more than $4 billion in cash and short-term investments, including $500 million in restricted cash. JP Morgan analyst Jamie Baker said the figures translate to a softer fourth quarter than expected. At current fuel prices unit revenue could gain 9%-10%, putting the nations largest airline "in sight of a breakeven result" for the first time since 2000.
Continental Airlines (CAL) received $172 million from the sale of 9 million shares in COPA Holdings, the parent company of COPA Airlines, in December. CAL, which still holds approximately 12 million shares, will contribute $50 million of the proceeds to its employee pension plans, bringing its 2005 contribution total to $354 million. CEO Larry Kellner said that CAL "remains committed to meeting our pension obligations". Continental plans on hiring approximately 500 pilots in '06.