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View Full Version : Yes, it IS a coaching issue......



MikeInNorman
12/29/2005, 03:32 PM
......but not an issue of "coaching", per se.

In my opinion, KS is the greatest basketball coach in OU history. KS has coached over a decade's worth of OU teams, and is demonstrably not only the greatest basketball coach in OU history, but the most successful. But, here's the deal: every single one of those teams ended the season as a Kevin Sampson Basketball Team(TM), whether that meant a better record than the talent level, a worse record than the talent level, or indeed, whether the team even wanted to be a KSBBT.

A Kelvin Sampson Basketball Team(TM):

1. Plays very, very, physical defense.
2. Plays very, very, hard on defense.
3. Mentally dominates the opponent on defense with physical play and effort.
4. By God dives after any loose ball within the area code.
5. Is very, very physically and mentally tough on defense.
6. Is very, very, physical and punishing on the defensive boards.
7. In fact, metaphorically "ball dives" on the defensive boards.
8. Knows by heart really difficult defensive schemes like KS's mind-boggling match-up zone wherein sometimes it looks like a zone, sometimes a man, and always confusing to the opponent.
9. Plays very, very, hard on offense.
10. Hits the offensive boards very, very hard, and puts up very, very hard putbacks that may or may not go in.
11. By God does not turn the ball over, no matter what, unless you are the guy who gets to shoot.
12. Runs more "structured" offense than a 1953 girls basketball team.

A KSBBT must be composed of Kelvin Sampson Basketball Players (TM) KSBBPs must dedicate themseves to the accomplishment of the KSBBT goals at the exclusion of all else. Once a player proves that he is willing and capable as a KSBBP, then, and only then, does he earn enough trust and receive permission to do stuff like create and score offensively. If LeBron James was at OU, he would ride the pine until he had dived after enough basketballs.

So, why complain? This is the way Kelvin coaches, it has been very successful, and IT WILL NEVER CHANGE. In fact, unless/until the players we have become KSBBPs, we will not be successful, because no KS team can win without the above foundational traits. So, discuss Xs and Os all you like; it makes no difference at all what schemes we run, what schemes we try, what inbounds plays, what anything. These guys will either sell out to KS's system and become a KSBBT, or they won't.

But come back in late January, and we'll then be able to argue details, because KS will find the 5 guys that are the best KSBBPs, and we'll start rounding into shape.

Hopefully.

NickZeppelin
12/29/2005, 05:02 PM
I think as soon as our guards get the playing defense we'll have less and less people complaining about this team. The offense really doesn't mean a lot if they don't play on defense. I bet if you looked at the fast break plays from our guards it's probably way off from last year. And we have the same defensive guards that turned it around last year. And don't give me this we lost Lavender and McKenzie crap they were both average on defense.

MikeInNorman
12/29/2005, 05:36 PM
I think as soon as our guards get the playing defense we'll have less and less people complaining about this team. The offense really doesn't mean a lot if they don't play on defense. I bet if you looked at the fast break plays from our guards it's probably way off from last year. And we have the same defensive guards that turned it around last year. And don't give me this we lost Lavender and McKenzie crap they were both average on defense.

What I'm saying is that no KS team can ever be successful without first selleing out to his system. In many ways, it doesn't matter who does, it just matters that somebody does. Right now, we aren't there, so offense is completely irrelevant. FIRST, we must become a KSBBT; NEXT, we will care about scoring. That's the way it is, has always been, and will always be as long as Kelvin is coach, which I hope is for a long time. But it does no good to complain about offense, or entry passes, or inbounds plays or the lack thereof, because Kelvin is not going to care about that stuff until the effort, defense, and rebounding issues are resolved.

OUstud
12/30/2005, 01:25 PM
I agree 100%. OK, KS, you're a great coach, glad to have you, but guess what? You have NBA talent now (and next year, with 5 top 100 players coming in), and you don't have to scrap victories anymore, you can win by dominating opponents.

Jimminy Crimson
12/30/2005, 05:33 PM
Heart, Hustle, Hardwood!

stoopified
1/1/2006, 05:49 PM
......but not an issue of "coaching", per se.

In my opinion, KS is the greatest basketball coach in OU history. KS has coached over a decade's worth of OU teams, and is demonstrably not only the greatest basketball coach in OU history, but the most successful. But, here's the deal: every single one of those teams ended the season as a Kevin Sampson Basketball Team(TM), whether that meant a better record than the talent level, a worse record than the talent level, or indeed, whether the team even wanted to be a KSBBT.

A Kelvin Sampson Basketball Team(TM):

1. Plays very, very, physical defense.
2. Plays very, very, hard on defense.
3. Mentally dominates the opponent on defense with physical play and effort.
4. By God dives after any loose ball within the area code.
5. Is very, very physically and mentally tough on defense.
6. Is very, very, physical and punishing on the defensive boards.
7. In fact, metaphorically "ball dives" on the defensive boards.
8. Knows by heart really difficult defensive schemes like KS's mind-boggling match-up zone wherein sometimes it looks like a zone, sometimes a man, and always confusing to the opponent.
9. Plays very, very, hard on offense.
10. Hits the offensive boards very, very hard, and puts up very, very hard putbacks that may or may not go in.
11. By God does not turn the ball over, no matter what, unless you are the guy who gets to shoot.
12. Runs more "structured" offense than a 1953 girls basketball team.

A KSBBT must be composed of Kelvin Sampson Basketball Players (TM) KSBBPs must dedicate themseves to the accomplishment of the KSBBT goals at the exclusion of all else. Once a player proves that he is willing and capable as a KSBBP, then, and only then, does he earn enough trust and receive permission to do stuff like create and score offensively. If LeBron James was at OU, he would ride the pine until he had dived after enough basketballs.

So, why complain? This is the way Kelvin coaches, it has been very successful, and IT WILL NEVER CHANGE. In fact, unless/until the players we have become KSBBPs, we will not be successful, because no KS team can win without the above foundational traits. So, discuss Xs and Os all you like; it makes no difference at all what schemes we run, what schemes we try, what inbounds plays, what anything. These guys will either sell out to KS's system and become a KSBBT, or they won't.

But come back in late January, and we'll then be able to argue details, because KS will find the 5 guys that are the best KSBBPs, and we'll start rounding into shape.

Hopefully.Very well stated and I really must agree completely.As for LeBron James type players,I think KS scares them off because he demands absolute selflessness and dedication.Only team-first players need apply.

NickZeppelin
1/10/2006, 03:30 PM
I wouldn't characterize James as a me first player. But I get the point. Very few of the Kobe Bryant types would last in with Kelvin. That's why he's backed off of Brandon Rush and Malik Hairston and a few others over the last few years.

BarryBnds
1/10/2006, 11:05 PM
I agree 100%. OK, KS, you're a great coach, glad to have you, but guess what? You have NBA talent now (and next year, with 5 top 100 players coming in), and you don't have to scrap victories anymore, you can win by dominating opponents.

I completely agree. The offensive schemes we run are embarrasing. The guy has to go. I don't give a damn that he made one lucky run. We have too many losses to teams we shouldn't lose to i.e. Indiana State, Manhattan, Indiana. The thing that is embarrasing is the media love affair and they are all afraid to say anything negative about Calvin.

NickZeppelin
1/10/2006, 11:08 PM
The offense looks good when your open shots go in. Our open shots simply don't do that. We've ran the same offense for 12 years and have averaged 75 a game in that span. The problem this year is we don't have the players to run our system. Especially without Neal. Next year with Damian James and Reynolds coming in we probably have the guys to run the offense. Last year with the same guys we ran the offense better. This year we just aren't running it as well. I can't explain it but that's just the way it is.

picasso
1/10/2006, 11:25 PM
Billy Tubbs' best team would smoke Kelvin's best squad.

just sayin.

NickZeppelin
1/10/2006, 11:26 PM
I don't know about that. Billy Tubbs style doesn't really work against good teams anymore. But he did have some talented guys in the 80's but still teams now can stop the break better then teams could then.

picasso
1/10/2006, 11:47 PM
I don't know about that. Billy Tubbs style doesn't really work against good teams anymore. But he did have some talented guys in the 80's but still teams now can stop the break better then teams could then.
dude, with all due respect you don't know **** k? Tubbs' best teams played pressure D and could light it up from any position.
my lord I'm not sure I should even try to respond. you think Tubbs' teams just ran the break?

NickZeppelin
1/10/2006, 11:48 PM
Tubbs best teams also still gave up 100 points a game. And that was a different era. UNC last year is considered a fast break team. They scored 82 a game I believe.

picasso
1/10/2006, 11:49 PM
Tubbs best teams also still gave up 100 points a game. And that was a different era. UNC last year is considered a fast break team. They scored 82 a game I believe.
holy **** you're clueless.

usmc-sooner
1/10/2006, 11:54 PM
holy **** you're clueless.

I second that emotion

NickZeppelin
1/11/2006, 12:00 AM
I'm not saying those Tubbs teams were bad. They had a ton of great players on them. I just don't think that style works anymore because of the way defenses are so much better now. Tubbs teams may average 80 a game but they'll give up 90 against anyone worth a crap.

picasso
1/11/2006, 12:04 AM
Nick, you're missing my point. Tubbs best team would wax Kelvin's best.

did you actually ever watch any of his squads? I'm not sure you're old enough and I'm also pretty certain you're not a baller.
I'm not swinging from Billy here, the time came for him to move on. However, I miss seeing an OU team with 5 kids on the floor that could create and score points. It's a distant memory.

also, you have to make a defensive stop to run the fast break. just sayin.

usmc-sooner
1/11/2006, 12:06 AM
holy **** you're clueless.

this just sums it up so well

NickZeppelin
1/11/2006, 12:08 AM
I can't say for sure if Tubbs teams with that style could wax anyone from today. No one runs that style with much success.

picasso
1/11/2006, 12:15 AM
I can't say for sure if Tubbs teams with that style could wax anyone from today. No one runs that style with much success.
what style Nick? the defense is better these days because the game has become more physical.
did you even read my post about Tubbs better teams playing great pressure D? you ever see his team from '87 play? of course not, you were in 3rd grade.;)

usmc-sooner
1/11/2006, 12:34 AM
what style Nick? the defense is better these days because the game has become more physical.
did you even read my post about Tubbs better teams playing great pressure D? you ever see his team from '87 play? of course not, you were in 3rd grade.;)

hey pic

don't you know none of the guys from that era could score on our D? They'd be totally clueless

you know bums like Jordan, Bird, Johnson etc......

Cam
1/11/2006, 08:18 AM
I can't say for sure if Tubbs teams with that style could wax anyone from today. No one runs that style with much success.
Please, just stop. More than any other, this post just proves you have not one clue of what you're talking about.

RacerX
1/11/2006, 09:23 AM
Nick, you're missing my point. Tubbs best team would wax Kelvin's best.

Nick wasn't born yet.

CtheB
1/11/2006, 09:42 AM
Nick wasn't born yet.

To clarify things regarding Tubbs, and I am not saying that he should return as coach, just that his style of ball was more preferable to me than Kelvin's.

Tubbs teams may have given up 100+, but they scored 120+. Tubbs teams always forced more turnovers than they made. Tubbs teams didn't have as high a shooting percentage as their opponents, but attempted 20% more shots a game to balance it out. Also, Tubbs teams generally beat handily the teams he should have beat handily, which Kelvin's do not.

Kelvin's teams couldn't score enough to beat Tubbs.

So I just offer this to people who believe that Tubbs teams didn't play defense, and didn't protect the ball.

Lastly, if you do not believe this style of ball is not preferred by the OU fan, check out the empty seats at every home game. They're growing.

Could Tubbs style win today? Depends on the talent, but I guarantee you the talent he did have got to show it on the floor. Kelvin's teams play with a muffler on.

MojoRisen
1/11/2006, 09:47 AM
To clarify things regarding Tubbs, and I am not saying that he should return as coach, just that his style of ball was more preferable to me than Kelvin's.

Tubbs teams may have given up 100+, but they scored 120+. Tubbs teams always forced more turnovers than they made. Tubbs teams didn't have as high a shooting percentage as their opponents, but attempted 20% more shots a game to balance it out. Also, Tubbs teams generally beat handily the teams he should have beat handily, which Kelvin's do not.

Kelvin's teams couldn't score enough to beat Tubbs.

So I just offer this to people who believe that Tubbs teams didn't play defense, and didn't protect the ball.

Lastly, if you do not believe this style of ball is not preferred by the OU fan, check out the empty seats at every home game. They're growing.

Could Tubbs style win today? Depends on the talent, but I guarantee you the talent he did have got to show it on the floor. Kelvin's teams play with a muffler on.


Agreed 100%- don't think Tubbs teams didn't play defense- yes they fun n gun but they had a hell of a press!

I have one word- all time NCAA Steels Leader Moooooooookie Blaylock!

CtheB
1/11/2006, 09:50 AM
You also never saw Tubbs teams take a four or five point lead and nurse it for the last 5 minutes of a ball game. Kelvin's played a basketball version of a prevent defense way too early the last two games.

jrboomersooner
1/11/2006, 10:04 AM
The fact is that even when we win, it's ugly. If you are ok with that, fine. But personally, if we are going to lose to the likes of Nebraska and Mizzou (at home btw) I say let's at least play the style of basketball that will put arses in the seats.

But that won't happen with a KS team.

I wonder what would happen if we had some of Billy's talent under Kelvins coaching. You put Tisdale, Sieger, and Bowie on this squad and it wouldn't surprise me if we see the same style of ball. We might win more games, but the same style of ball. What a waste of talent that would be.

CtheB
1/11/2006, 10:14 AM
Wayman would have been a career 11 point 7 board a game guy under Kelvin.