BOK ARENA

[StoopTroup]

So...

What does everyone think?

http://www.gtrnews.com/images/355.jpg

STRUCTURE: Construction of the 18,000-seat Vision 2025 arena is expected to begin in July for a 2007 opening. It will be located from First to Third Streets and Denver to Frisco Avenues.

http://arch.ou.edu/arch/5595tulsa/drawings/Arena/

http://www.jamesshirley.com/tulsa/images/arena.jpg

[Ike]

on second thought, lets not go there. tis a silly place.

[mrowl]

one question:

why?

[silverwheels]

one question:

why?

That's what I'm wondering...

[StoopTroup]

Listen to 1170 am in the morning.

It's brutal....lol.

It's 740 am's evil twin.

The guy is even getting sued by the Mayor...lol

I just thought I'd test the water in the Oval is all.

[mrowl]

That's what I'm wondering...

I don't see any reason for Tulsa to build an arena that seats 18,000.....

Who are they trying to get to live in it? an AFL3 team?

[JohnnyMack]

It's a good looking, forward thinking arena. Not run of the mill, that's for sure.

[silverwheels]

I don't see any reason for Tulsa to build an arena that seats 18,000.....

Who are they trying to get to live in it? an AFL3 team?

Or a WNBA team...

[OklahomaTrombone]

It's a good looking, forward thinking arena. Not run of the mill, that's for sure.


Its pretty run of the mill for designer....

see its clone:

http://www.miamikids.net/images/AmericanAirlines.jpg

http://www.moderntrade.com/images1-01/centria.jpg

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/nba-history/images/stades/miami.JPG

[mrssoonerhubler]

?????????

[GottaHavePride]

If an arena fell where no one watches the WNBA, would anybody care? Or something.

[mrssoonerhubler]

Not sure what to think of the look. Hmmm... I've seen better designs.

[oumartin]

are they gonna use it for Monster Truck shows and moto-cross? That would be cool..

[Mjcpr]

I don't see any reason for Tulsa to build an arena that seats 18,000.....

Who are they trying to get to live in it? an AFL3 team?

Who was the Ford Center built for? Or any of the arenas that have popped up in similar-sized cities? They're built to draw events to those cities that otherwise probably wouldn't come there.

[Fugue]

Who was the Ford Center built for? Or any of the arenas that have popped up in similar-sized cities? They're built to draw events to those cities that otherwise probably wouldn't come there.

RAWR!
take it easy :eddie: :D

[Mjcpr]

RAWR!
take it easy :eddie: :D

I'm here to chew gum and take names. And I'm all outta gum.

Now get in line, beyonce.

:D

[TopDaugIn2000]

I graduated with those 2 guys. That's all I am going to say about it.

[Taxman71]

Who was the Ford Center built for? Or any of the arenas that have popped up in similar-sized cities? They're built to draw events to those cities that otherwise probably wouldn't come there.

Seriously, OKC getting the Hornets was a major coupe that required the help of a hurricane of a lifetime. If OKC has always been a AAA minor league city, then Tulsa is at best a AA city. Thus, I am also curious what events could fill up that arena other than graduation ceremonies for Union and Jenks.

[Mjcpr]

Seriously, OKC getting the Hornets was a major coupe that required the help of a hurricane of a lifetime. If OKC has always been a AAA minor league city, then Tulsa is at best a AA city. Thus, I am also curious what events could fill up that arena other than graduation ceremonies for Union and Jenks.

:confused:

I'm saying the Ford Center wasn't built for anybody either....nor were most of the arenas in similarly sized cities. OKC has a full time resident for the Ford Center now because of the hurricane, but the arena wasn't built for them. It was built to draw events that wouldn't have come there w/o the new arena.....and in this case, they were able to land the Hornets because they built that arena. As well as major concerts, the NCAA games, etc.

I would assume Tulsa would hope that they could get an NCAA regional (or whatever the early rounds are called), a major concert, the Conference USA tournaments...stuff like that. Nobody is saying that they're trying to attract a major league franchise or anything. It's being built to attract events and to help revitalize the downtown area. Hopefully, it does both.

[Fugue]

I'm here to chew gum and take names. And I'm all outta gum.

Now get in line, beyonce.

:D

what, do you work for the census bureau?
shouldn't there be a "kick ***" in there somewhere? :texan:

[TheHumanAlphabet]

It looks like Louis Farakan's mother ship...

[Mjcpr]

what, do you work for the census bureau?
shouldn't there be a "kick ***" in there somewhere? :texan:

This is a family board.

:D

[Taxman71]

The Ford Center was built for the express purpose of attracting a major league franchise to OKC, albeit an NHL franchise was the focus at the time as OKC was on the franchise watch list. Also, the OKC Blazers were a ready-made tenant of the Ford Center and have had the largest crowds in their league annually. Of course, the Ford Center has also attracted big time musical acts as promised with is in line with the entire MAPS project.

I am not slamming Tulsa, but I have never heard their name remotely mentioned for any type of sports franchise, etc. I understand attracting concerts, etc., but it takes more than those to justify the arena.

[Mjcpr]

The Ford Center was built for the express purpose of attracting a major league franchise to OKC, albeit an NHL franchise was the focus at the time as OKC was on the franchise watch list. Also, the OKC Blazers were a ready-made tenant of the Ford Center and have had the largest crowds in their league annually. Of course, the Ford Center has also attracted big time musical acts as promised with is in line with the entire MAPS project.

I am not slamming Tulsa, but I have never heard their name remotely mentioned for any type of sports franchise, etc. I understand attracting concerts, etc., but it takes more than those to justify the arena.

I never heard of OKC being on the watch list for any major league franchise, but I don't live there so I definitely wouldn't argue the point. Nor do I recall the express purpose of the Ford Center being to attract a major league team but again, I don't live there so I wasn't as current on the city happenings when they were planning/building that arena. All I remember about the Ford Center was that oh, OKC is building a new arena....that's cool.

Nobody is saying the Tulsa arena is for a sports franchise...that's probably why you never hear them even remotely mentioned for one. And I think that is a good enough reason to justify an arena. To have a venue available to attract events that would not come here now and to attempt to revitalize the downtown area. Where would any decent sized event play in Tulsa? The Convention Center? The Mabee Center? Those are the only decent sized event centers in town and they're both getting up there in age. The Vision 2025 Project (which includes the arena) is, in my mind at least, similar to the MAPS project of OKC. I can only hope that it works out half as well for us as MAPS did for OKC. It doesn't bother me a bit to spend 6/10 of a penny to help improve the city I live in. Again, I just hope we have part of the sucess that OKC has had. What's good for OKC and Tulsa, I think, is good for the state.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Is Tulsa with the Vision 2025 thing looking at upgrading the major highways and increasing the number of and widening the lanes?

Without that, its all smoke...

[Mjcpr]

Is Tulsa with the Vision 2025 thing looking at upgrading the major highways and increasing the number of and widening the lanes?

Without that, its all smoke...

I don't think City/County sales tax funds are normally used to upgrade the major highways in the area. We'd never be able to afford it. State and Federal funds provide the bulk of that funding I think. I could be wrong.

They've been trying to get Federal help to widen I-44 for years and I think they have finally got some of that in place.

[Taxman71]

You are very correct that Tulsa needs some sort of big time arena. The convention center and Mabee don't cut it for a town of that size and growing. So, I guess if you are going to build one, you might as well make it big and nice.

And, I agree, why anyone would not agree to a 1 cent or less sales tax to build things like MAPS, Ford Center, Tulsa arena, etc. is beyond me.

[OklahomaTrombone]

Is Tulsa with the Vision 2025 thing looking at upgrading the major highways and increasing the number of and widening the lanes?

Without that, its all smoke...


Here's a story on the widening of I-44

http://www.kotv.com/main/home/stories.asp?whichpage=1&id=78168


ODOT and the Fed are dragging their feet and have been for years.

[IB4OU2]

Maybe we (Tulsa) can double our attendance at Gun shows..........

[royalfan5]

Lincoln is looking at 15,000 seat arena and UNL doesn't want to play there. Cities like building areanas it's good for local self esteem. Omaha bulit a big arena basically for conventions, Creighton Basketball, and UNO hockey, they have done a good job filling in around those dates with concerts and other events, so maybe Tulsa can make it work too.

[OklahomaTrombone]

TU won't leave their on-campus arena and neither will ORU.

I think Tulsa was tired of having the seventh best arena in the state and the fourth best in town.

[frankensooner]

Tulsans refused forever any tax increases to make the city more marketable and enjoyable. Now they are reaping what they sowed...is it too late? I hope not. Tulsa is a nice city and I hope they can recover. That being said, I am glad that I live in the OKC-Metro and that I voted Yes for the MAPS project.

[Jimminy Crimson]

I am glad that I live in the OKC-Metro and that I voted Yes for the MAPS project.

...and that it didn't take 20 years to accomplish.

Take that... ;)

[Mjcpr]

The bids have come in for most of the work on the arena.....glass, electrical, plumbing, drywall work, etc. Taking all the low bids will only put the costs at $32 MILLION over estimates. I must've been drunk to think something could go right around here. :rolleyes:

How do you miss by $32 million?

IBTT

[1stTimeCaller]

heh. what's the current projected cost?

[OklahomaTuba]

$32 Mill?

So, still think this thing is worth it? I don't.

Maybe if they put the arena somewhere that made a lick of sense, then I might be for it, like I was when I voted for it.

But if "the good ol boys" running the show still insist on building this thing in the worst possible location downtown, then I say screw the damn thing. Might as well leave the crater in the ground and fix some streets with the money.

[OklahomaTuba]

Oh, and I still believe we got ripped off on the design. BIG TIME.

Thanks Ceasar.

http://www.miamikids.net/images/AmericanAirlines.jpg

[Mjcpr]

heh. what's the current projected cost?

$101 million for that work.

[Mjcpr]

Gap is $32 million; mayor wants answers and options

Tulsa's BOK Center may have to go back to the drawing board after it was revealed Friday that construction bids are $32 million over estimates.
Mayor Kathy Taylor has directed Tulsa Vision Builders -- the construction team -- and the other professional firms involved with the arena to present options and a plan to execute them so the project can move forward.
"I expect to have that on my desk within a week," she said.
Taylor made reassurances that the arena will be built.
"We asked this city to build an arena within a certain budget. That is something my predecessor promised, and we need to do all we can to keep that promise. That's our objective."
When Taylor was asked whether the 18,000-seat arena might have to be scaled back, she said she wouldn't use that terminology.
"We need to analyze whether there are ways to rebid or whether we can build the project as it was envisioned in a more cost-effective way," she said.
A panel of city officials from the public works, finance and legal departments and the City Clerk's Office unsealed bids and announced the submitted figures at a public meeting.

The bids are for key materials such as concrete, structural steel, masonry, drywall and the glass for the arena's entryways, windows and iconic wall. They are also for the arena's electrical, mechanical and plumbing systems.
The total of the lowest base bids topped $101 million; the engineer's estimates totaled $68.9 million.
Rumors have been swirling about possible increased expenses over the past several months because of escalating material costs due to last year's Gulf Coast hurricanes and the subsequent construction boom.
Tulsa Vision Builders Project Director Bart Boatright said officials don't yet have a clear understanding of why the bids were so far above the estimates.
"We've been looking and tracking our past bid activity on this project and other projects and have not experienced this kind of difference in the bids from our budget," he said. "It came as a complete surprise to us."
None of the bids have been awarded because they have to go through a review process.
They can be rejected because of their amounts.
The BOK Center's budget is $141 million from the Vision 2025 sales tax package, which was approved by voters in 2003, and includes $122 million for construction.
That construction figure includes $10 million in contingency funds for any overruns.
Taylor said no decision has been made about whether the city will try to seek additional public funding for the project.
"I haven't analyzed that," the new mayor said. "I've been in this job 10 days, and in that time we've had two court judgments, a $5 million budget deficit, three homicides and now the arena bids.
"This is something that now will be a priority to analyze all of our options, and that's what I've asked them to do."
Efforts are under way to raise additional private dollars through various sponsorships and suite sales. The arena's budget received an $11 million boost from the sale of the naming rights to Bank of Oklahoma.
Despite the financial uncertainty, work on the BOK Center is progressing and on schedule to be finished in April 2008.
Crews recently poured the main-level slab after finishing the walls and piers for the basement level at the arena's site, located downtown between First and Third streets and Denver and Frisco avenues.
Taylor said arena work doesn't need to stop while the financial options are being reviewed.
"We'll be figuring out these options quickly," she said. "But I've asked whether there's any work that has been done to date that would have to be changed if these bids weren't in line, and they have assured me that the critical path of the work is in good shape."
Once this bid hurdle is overcome, Boatright said, the remaining bids for the arena project are for materials with "less volatile" costs.

[Mjcpr]

But if "the good ol boys" running the show still insist on building this thing in the worst possible location downtown, then I say screw the damn thing. Might as well leave the crater in the ground and fix some streets with the money.

Which "good ol boys" are still around that you claim are the masterminds of the "building it in the wrong place" scam?

[1stTimeCaller]

$101 million for that work.

wow. they missed 30% of the costs? That's awesome.

[Mjcpr]

wow. they missed 30% of the costs? That's awesome.
Yeah, it was a close call. :rolleyes:

[JohnnyMack]

wow. they missed 30% of the costs? That's awesome.

Any chance we can fire you over this?

[Big Red Ron]

I never heard of OKC being on the watch list for any major league franchise, but I don't live there so I definitely wouldn't argue the point.

About five years ago the NHL expanded by two teams. The NHL had a list of about twenty cities, then cut it down to ten, five and three. OKC was the third city. The main reason we didn't get the NHL expansion team was the Cox center was too small.

[1stTimeCaller]

why not?

[Mjcpr]

About five years ago the NHL expanded by two teams. The NHL had a list of about twenty cities, then cut it down to ten, five and three. OKC was the third city. The main reason we didn't get the NHL expansion team was the Cox center was too small.

So OKC has a little Cox?

[Big Red Ron]

So OKC has a little Cox?Yeah, I think it holds around 14K and at the time was known as the Myriad.

[1stTimeCaller]

just when JohnnyMack is in town

[JohnnyMack]

why not?

<sniff, sniff, sniff>

You smell like poop.

[OklahomaTuba]

Which "good ol boys" are still around that you claim are the masterminds of the "building it in the wrong place" scam?

I think all one had to ask themselves is, who picked this location for the Arena?

I can tell you who didn't pick it:
-the voters
-tulsa city council
-the county commission

But at this point, it doesn't matter.

Its a **** poor location. Its in an area overrun with crime and homelessness, insight of the jail, court house, post office and other public facilities. It should be in a district within walking distance of entertainment venues.

Yet this is the location we want to attract tourists too? Please.

[JohnnyMack]

I think all one had to ask themselves is, who picked this location for the Arena?

I can tell you who didn't pick it:
-the voters
-tulsa city council
-the county commission

But at this point, it doesn't matter.

Its a **** poor location. Its in an area overrun with crime and homelessness, insight of the jail.

Yet this is the location we want to attract tourists too? Please.

Who benefitted from the arena being placed in that location? I agree it's not the best place I can think of, but who benefitted from having it put there as opposed to over there, or over there?

[Mjcpr]

So who chose it?

[OklahomaTuba]

I think the Arena should go right next door to the John 3:16 shelter, instead of just down the street from it.

That way, then the Talons and oilers are playing, the arena will actually look busy!

[OklahomaTuba]

So who chose it?

A private entity that receives tax money directly chose it.

Some people call it the Metro Chamber of Commerce. I wouldn't call it that myself.

[OklahomaTuba]

Who benefitted from the arena being placed in that location? I agree it's not the best place I can think of, but who benefitted from having it put there as opposed to over there, or over there?

The Chamber and its members.

The chamber wanted it close to the convention center (which no money will be left over to renovate now) and some members had a stake in the area as well from what I hear.

[JohnnyMack]

The Chamber and its members.

The chamber wanted it close to the convention center (which no money will be left over to renovate now) and some members had a stake in the area as well from what I hear.

How did the Chamber manage to have that much pull?

[bri]

Tuba's just ****ed that we're not building it in Owasso.

[OklahomaTuba]

How did the Chamber manage to have that much pull?

That Chamber runs this city. Its got all the special interests. The Home Builders, the realtors, the old money, all of em. They even get millions of dollars of tax money handed directly to them for "economic development", which really means taking its members on yearly boondoggles at taxpayers expense. Lord know they don't attract many companies here with that money, or keeping them around in fact.

This is what I mean by "the good ol boys".

Its also one very large reason there is no more Mayor Lafortune. Cathy Taylor saved their hide when she convinced her hubby to move Vanguard to Tulsa for the tax credits.

[1stTimeCaller]

Tuba's just ****ed that we're not building it in Owasso.

you do know that Garth Brooks lives just down the street from Tuba don't you? ;)

[bri]

you do know that Garth Brooks lives just down the street from Tuba don't you? ;)


See? The arena's working ALREADY?

And for sh*ts and giggles, ask Fish what he thinks about the success of MAPS sometime...:D

[OklahomaTuba]

Tuba's just ****ed that we're not building it in Owasso.
I think it would be sweet to have it near Cherry Street or Brookside myself.

At my company, we bring in hundreds of customers a year from around the world. Some very important people actually.

To have a landmark like this thing in an area with restraunts, clubs, bars, shops and clean people that live in homes would be a positive for Tulsa. Nice walkable districts are the key.

But no, thanks to the wisdom of our great chamber of commerce, instead we won't be taking people to an arena across the street from a craptasitc 60's era federal buidling, ex jail, post office, bus station, with lots of homeless people and a nice view of the county jail, bail bondsmen, and the John 3:16 homeless shelter and other run-down buildings.

[OklahomaTuba]

you do know that Garth Brooks lives just down the street from Tuba don't you? ;)
That POS house of his is really dragging down my home value according to zillow.com.

[Mjcpr]

That POS house of his is really dragging down my home value according to zillow.com.

Please. Who do you think you are, Al Gore?

:D

[bri]

I think it would be sweet to have it near Cherry Street or Brookside myself.

And were, pray tell, would we put the 18,000 seat arena in those residental areas? I guess we could pull an aggy and just evict three or four square miles of Tulsa's oldest neighborhoods...

[OklahomaTuba]

And were, pray tell, would we put the 18,000 seat arena in those residental areas? I guess we could pull an aggy and just evict three or four square miles of Tulsa's oldest neighborhoods...

Not all of the area by 15th and Peoria is historic. It could be done there I believe. They did manage to build highways around there at one time.

Brookside would be more difficult, but again around 31st isn't an area I would consider historic myself either.

I am also sure the 18th and boston area, or the "bricktown" area would work well.

[JohnnyMack]

And were, pray tell, would we put the 18,000 seat arena in those residental areas? I guess we could pull an aggy and just evict three or four square miles of Tulsa's oldest neighborhoods...

Thanks for asking that question, I had to go get coffee.

[JohnnyMack]

Not all of the area by 15th and Peoria is historic. It could be done there I believe. They did manage to build highways around there at one time.

Brookside would be more difficult, but again around 31st isn't an area I would consider historic myself either.

I am also sure the 18th and boston area, or the "bricktown" area would work well.

This is by far the stupidest post you've evar posted. And I've seen my fair share of dumb posts. Hell I've written my fair share of dumb posts. But this one, hoo boy, it takes the cake.

[OklahomaTuba]

This is by far the stupidest post you've evar posted. And I've seen my fair share of dumb posts. Hell I've written my fair share of dumb posts. But this one, hoo boy, it takes the cake.

Whys that?

I guess there is something wrong with building a large attraction near places where people might actually want to go, instead of next door to government buildings and slums huh? Or is that more your scene?

Somebody better tell TU this so they can start knocking down the reynolds center and moving it.

[PrideTrombone]

I guess there is something wrong with building a large attraction near places where people might actually want to go.


Hell, just put it at 71st and Memorial then. They've got room. :eek:

Tulsa's already done too much of putting things where people want to go. It's time for Tulsa to start making more places within the city desirable. The arena may be the first step. Or it may be a gigantic flop.

[OklahomaTuba]

Tulsa's already done too much of putting things where people want to go. It's time for Tulsa to start making more places within the city desirable. The arena may be the first step. Or it may be a gigantic flop.

I agree.

I don't think the Arena will be a gigantic flop if its someplace people won't fear going at night.

Hell, put it by the river for all I care. At least the dirt and refineries would provide a better view than the page belcher federal building and the homeless peeps begging for change waiting for a bus.

[JohnnyMack]

Whys that?

I guess there is something wrong with building a large attraction near places where people might actually want to go, instead of next door to government buildings and slums huh? Or is that more your scene?

Somebody better tell TU this so they can start knocking down the reynolds center and moving it.

I know, let's mow down the Council Oak and put the arena there. That's an idea!

Buying up that land on the Peoria corridor would be cheap, I mean really cost effective.

I realize you think this whole process is an attack by a group of rogue Democrats who are bent on this cities destruction, but your Brookside argument sucks.

I would have rather seen the arena put over in Greenwood. There is already a sprinkling of developments in the area in terms of restaurants and attractions in that area that would accelerate that region into a viable, thriving Bricktown type area.

So while you and I both agree the chosen location for the arena sucks, please just admit that your Brookside argument was stoopid.

[picasso]

Tuba, there's barely enough room in that area to build a bank. where the hell would you put the parking? tear down a few restaurants?

the people in charge of Tulsa goings on are just idiots. first the budget problems with the arena and now the jaggoffs want to renew the 3rd penny sales tax.

2025 is right, because we're not going to see any changes until 20frickin25.

[OklahomaTuba]

So while you and I both agree the chosen location for the arena sucks, please just admit that your Brookside argument was stoopid.

Again, tell me why this is stupid? Brookside is one of the best parts of town. Why not have a large venue near it?

Whats so great about 41st and Peoria? Those houses aren't any different than the ones that TU mowed down for the reynolds center, and are in fact newer!

[OklahomaTuba]

Tuba, there's barely enough room in that area to build a bank. where the hell would you put the parking? tear down a few restaurants?
What about north of the broken arrow expressway on peoria? Or what about over it like they did in KC with their convention center?
-highway access
-substandard housing that needs to be fixed or raised.
-in walking distance of cherry st.

Its just an idea.

[royalfan5]

Are you guys trying to do this arena on the cheap. The Qwest Center in Omaha is about the same size and Omaha put a lot more cash into it to do it right.(And they still kind of screwed it up, but they are fixing it by adding more seats this summer) Tulsa isn't dumb enough to build an 18,000 seat single concourse arena are they?

Although I think some of the increased Omaha cost might have been superfund related.

[Mjcpr]

I think the budget is what.......$140 million? Is that on the cheap because I don't know what arenas are going for these days.

[royalfan5]

I think the budget is what.......$140 million? Is that on the cheap because I don't know what arenas are going for these days.
Omaha's arena and convention center was 316 Million, the Sprint Center in KC is 276 million, Dallas's was 420 million. A well done big time arena should be in the 200+ range, especially with increasing steel costs. The New Orleans arena was 110 million and they used an all concrete design that saved them a ton on structural steel.

[JohnnyMack]

Again, tell me why this is stupid? Brookside is one of the best parts of town. Why not have a large venue near it?

Whats so great about 41st and Peoria? Those houses aren't any different than the ones that TU mowed down for the reynolds center, and are in fact newer!

Because the houses, the shopping and the restaurants that give Brookside its charm shouldn't be steamrolled so we can have an arena right in the middle of it. Where's your highway access in Brookside? Do you realize what that land is worth in relation to the land they bought downtown? It would cost 4 times as much for the same amount of land. And then you get to build a parking garage for the cars because there no place for all of these fu*king cars to park!!!!! Even more land bought! Woooo!!!! You're having a stroke as it is about costs, I can't imagine what would happen if you saw the budget for a Brookside arena.

Now I don't remember the answer to this, but how many houses were torn down to build the Reynolds Center? Seems like that land always belonged to TU. No?

Greenwood was the right answer for the arena. The infrastructure is in place. There are already restaurants in place. There is plenty of room for new hotels/restaurants. It has a charm and atmosphere just waiting for someone to discover it.

[OklahomaTuba]

Because the houses, the shopping and the restaurants that give Brookside its charm shouldn't be steamrolled so we can have an arena right in the middle of it.
Never said I wanted to steamroll those things. But there are some areas on the parameters of brookside, like at 41st that could be used IMO. I think that would only help brookside and might keep the restraunt from closing so often as the seem to do these days.



Where's your highway access in Brookside?
I-44 is a mile away. Riverside is even closer.


Do you realize what that land is worth in relation to the land they bought downtown? It would cost 4 times as much for the same amount of land. And then you get to build a parking garage for the cars because there no place for all of these fu*king cars to park!!!!! Even more land bought! Woooo!!!! You're having a stroke as it is about costs, I can't imagine what would happen if you saw the budget for a Brookside arena.I could at least accept the cost increase being in an area that might be attractive vs bumcity.


Now I don't remember the answer to this, but how many houses were torn down to build the Reynolds Center? Seems like that land always belonged to TU. No?TU spent years waiting for ppl to die to get thatland. They destroyed about 3 blocks of homes. I remember those houses well.


Greenwood was the right answer for the arena. The infrastructure is in place. There are already restaurants in place. There is plenty of room for new hotels/restaurants. It has a charm and atmosphere just waiting for someone to discover it.I can't disagree, it would be a great area for it.

[Mjcpr]

Omaha's arena and convention center was 316 Million, the Sprint Center in KC is 276 million, Dallas's was 420 million. A well done big time arena should be in the 200+ range, especially with increasing steel costs. The New Orleans arena was 110 million and they used an all concrete design that saved them a ton on structural steel.

No way Tulsa would/could pay that much.

[royalfan5]

No way Tulsa would/could pay that much.
Then why do they need 18K seats if they can't afford to do it right?

[bri]

There's barely enough infrastructure in place (i.e. roads) for five bars' worth of drunks to get in and out of Brookside. 18,000 eventgoers clogging up Peoria and the surrounding side streets? No thanks. I'll step over a homeless guy, just like I do when I go to Bricktown.

[OklahomaTuba]

No thanks. I'll step over a homeless guy, just like I do when I go to Bricktown.

Sure, but stepping over the homeless guy on your way home, or to a bar or something?

I doubt it would be on your way to a federal office building.

[JohnnyMack]

Sure, but stepping over the homeless guy on your way home, or to a bar or something?

I doubt it would be on your way to a federal office building.

Can you find 5 15,000 seat (or bigger) arenas in this country that have at least one semi-professional team in it that isn't in a cities' downtown? I know Sacramento would be one.

[sooneron]

Didn't the Ford Center cost around 140? Throws a wrench in Royal's philosophy.

[Big Red Ron]

I'll step over a homeless guy, just like I do when I go to Bricktown.You must be thinking of the Farmer's market, other side of downtown. I lived in Deep Deuce for a year (less than one block from Bricktown) and never saw a homeless person.

Just sayin...

[royalfan5]

Can you find 5 15,000 seat (or bigger) arenas in this country that have at least one semi-professional team in it that isn't in a cities' downtown? I know Sacramento would be one.
And that one will be replaced shortly.

[royalfan5]

Didn't the Ford Center cost around 140? Throws a wrench in Royal's philosophy.
It was also built before the real spike in Steel Prices too. Most contempory arenas are in the 200million dollar range when equipmed with State of the Art amenities.

[Mjcpr]

So steel went up about $60 million?

[bri]

You must be thinking of the Farmer's market, other side of downtown. I lived in Deep Deuce for a year (less than one block from Bricktown) and never saw a homeless person.

Just sayin...

The guy who hit me up when I was downtown a couple of weeks ago must have been freelance, then. :D

[GottaHavePride]

FWIW, the concept looks a lot like what Wichita State did when they renovated their basketball arena.

Oh, and the thread title makes me think of :chicken:

[royalfan5]

So steel went up about $60 million?
Energey costs play a big role in this, unless you have a big steel mill in Tulsa, freight cost are higher with fuel prices, plus steel supplies are tight which pushes things higher, and frieght supplies are tight. Plus energy costs fill in through out the construction process. If you compare costs of arena's built 5-10 years ago to current costs you'll see this.

[Fugue]

I'm here to chew gum and take names. And I'm all outta gum.

Now get in line, beyonce.

:D

bwahahahaha

[Mjcpr]

Heh

I think the search for the Loch Ness Monster took less time. :D

[StoopTroup]

http://www.crowriveraudio.com/tk/dustoff.jpg

[Fugue]

ok jacka5ses, this is a make fun of Pat thread. :mad:

[Fugue]

Heh

I think the search for the Loch Ness Monster took less time. :D

cause you didn't even get the bubblegum part of it right. :D

[Mjcpr]

cause you didn't even get the bubblegum part of it right. :D

Pfffft, I didn't even know there was a right or wrong.....I don't even know where it came from. :D

[1stTimeCaller]

I'm pretty sure Pat is dead on with the bubblegum thing.

[hurricane'bone]

Can you find 5 15,000 seat (or bigger) arenas in this country that have at least one semi-professional team in it that isn't in a cities' downtown? I know Sacramento would be one.

Yes:

Palace of Auburn Hills
AT&T Center
Continental Airlines Arena
United Center
The Arena in Oakland

[OklahomaTuba]

There's barely enough infrastructure in place (i.e. roads) for five bars' worth of drunks to get in and out of Brookside. 18,000 eventgoers clogging up Peoria and the surrounding side streets? No thanks. I'll step over a homeless guy, just like I do when I go to Bricktown.

Never mind Tulsa has had a 40,000 seat football stadium @ 11th and Harvard for a few years now, not including the reynolds center (8,000 seats) which was built next door to that.

[Mjcpr]

Never mind Tulsa has had a 40,000 seat football stadium @ 11th and Harvard for a few years now

In fairness, I don't think they ever had 18,000 people in it though.

:D

[JohnnyMack]

In fairness, I don't think they ever had 18,000 people in it though.

:D

Why do you hate Jenks/Union?

[StoopTroup]

In fairness, I don't think they ever had 18,000 people in it though.

:D
It was full the night The Sooners came to town. :D

[hurricane'bone]

In fairness, I don't think they ever had 18,000 people in it though.

:D


In fairness...go **** yourself.

[Fugue]

In fairness...go **** yourself.

are you serious?

[JohnnyMack]

Looks like someone either forgot a winkie or is about to go 3 Mile Island on us.

http://www.phog.tv/images/emoticons/popcorn.gif

[StoopTroup]

I think the Reynolds Center could host most the Home Games. ;)

http://explorer.altopix.com/uploads/l2d5zl.jpg

[Mjcpr]

In fairness...go **** yourself.

:confused:

Dang, people should lighten up.

[1stTimeCaller]

91 Tulsa

1999
13,975

2000
19,463

from http://www.ncaa.org/stats/football/attendance/2000/ia_attendance.html

[Fugue]

yeah, i don't know enough about h'bone yet to know if it was a forgotten smiley or a high level of passion regarding seating capacity.

[Mjcpr]

yeah, i don't know enough about h'bone yet to know if it was a forgotten smiley or a high level of passion regarding seating capacity.

Oh, crap. I knew there was someone around here that was a seating capacity advocate but I couldn't remember who it was.

[IB4OU2]

:confused:

Dang, people should lighten up.

Ok, just go fondle yourself then......:D

[Mjcpr]

Ok, just go fondle yourself then......:D

Done and done.

[Newbomb Turk]

Hills AND an 18,000 seat arena....

Tulsa really will pwn OKC then. ;)

[IB4OU2]

I used to live about 2 blocks South of Skelly stadium on College and the only time that stadium was near capacity or full was when they played OU or OSU or the Jenks/Union game.....Tulsa just doesn't have the fan base to fill a 40K stadium......kinda like OSU.

[Mixer!]

ZING! :D

[XingTheRubicon]

Hills AND an 18,000 seat arena....

Tulsa really will pwn OKC then. ;)


heh

I mean


heh

[XingTheRubicon]

You must be thinking of the Farmer's market, other side of downtown. I lived in Deep Deuce for a year (less than one block from Bricktown) and never saw a homeless person.

Just sayin...


I'll have to admit, I didn't see one homeless person the last time I was in Tulsa. (1997?)

[Mjcpr]

In fairness...go **** yourself.

I'm still hurt by this.

[Fugue]

I'm still hurt by this.

by what was said or by actually following through with it? :eek: :texan:

[Newbomb Turk]

by what was said or by actually following through with it? :eek: :texan:

inquiring minds want to know.

[bri]

I'll have to admit, I didn't see one homeless person the last time I was in Tulsa. (1997?)

They went to Houston along with the jobs. It was a package deal.

"Okay, you can cripple our economy by taking thousands of jobs away, but you have to take the beggars and hobos too!"

[OUstud]

I thought the Ford Center was something like $86 million. :confused: That said, is everyone here satisfied with that one, because I have heard of people complaining about it, it's ugly, seats aren't wide enough, whatever.

[Big Red Ron]

I thought the Ford Center was something like $86 million. :confused: That said, is everyone here satisfied with that one, because I have heard of people complaining about it, it's ugly, seats aren't wide enough, whatever.Fat people might not like it but the place rocks and is nicer than most other NBA arenas.

[Big Red Ron]

I'll have to admit, I didn't see one homeless person the last time I was in Tulsa. (1997?)Place is a ghost town nowadays...don't get out of your car if you visit though, you might get shot.

Haven't they had like 794 murders in the last two weeks?

[King Crimson]

i wasn't that impressed with the Ford Center. it's nice and new, but seems about what it is: a good deal that's paid for with some visible signs of corner cutting.

as for comparisons with other NBA arenas, it's no where near the Pepsi Center. it wasn't supposed to be, either.

[Okla-homey]

Place is a ghost town nowadays...don't get out of your car if you visit though, you might get shot.

Haven't they had like 794 murders in the last two weeks?

The vast majority of the killin's are among gang bangers -- its kinda like self-induced thug population control. I can't remember the last time a nice person got shot...at least since I moved to town this time last year.

[bri]

Place is a ghost town nowadays...don't get out of your car if you visit though, you might get shot.

Haven't they had like 794 murders in the last two weeks?

Hey, that's FUNNY!

So, is it safe to go to Crossroads Mall or Frontier City again?

[Big Red Ron]

Hey, that's FUNNY!

So, is it safe to go to Crossroads Mall or Frontier City again?Sure, the Insurance Department bought most of the Mall and Frontier City has seen a resurgence since Six Flags remolded it. I only get a little scared at Racino.
:D

[StoopTroup]

http://www.cityoftulsa.org/News/images/BOKCenterSEview.jpg

http://www.vision2025.info/includes/pages/eventcenterprojections/uploads/0/file.pdf

[Mjcpr]

Pics from inside the arena. (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8876)

I liked this one
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/4056/aimg2489webvo2.jpg

[Hamhock]

why didn't they show the view from the other side so we could see the jail?

[Fugue]

cue crazed/defensive Pat

:D

[Mjcpr]

Because it's 6 blocks away.

And I still say the jail is damn nice looking building. :D

http://www.hdrinc.com/Assets/images/projects/Civic/mosscriminaljusticecenter1.jpg

[NormanPride]

Six blocks away and behind an overpass, I believe. I can see the BOK tower from where I sit, and I've loved watching it go up.

[12]

http://power-trac.com/images/Attachments/large-auger-2.jpg

[OklahomaTuba]

Its a cool building, that is for sure. Just wish they had built it someplace that was next to lots of eating and drinking establishments to create a "district" feel.

At least the used seating will look very nice in it.

[sooner_born_1960]

Is it still scheduled to open in 2007?

[Mjcpr]

Is it still scheduled to open in 2007?

As far as I know, fall 2008 has always been the scheduled opening.

[OklahomaTuba]

Six blocks away and behind an overpass, I believe. I can see the BOK tower from where I sit, and I've loved watching it go up.

How do you get that?

Its only 2-3 blocks away from the jail, and inside the IDL. Its just right down the friggin street from skid row.

Here is a map of it...

http://www.teamonetickets.com/seating-chart/bok-center-map.html

[Boomer.....]

September

[Hamhock]

is there a "stiring the tird" smilie?

[BigRedJed]

It's a great looking building. I agree that they should have had a bias towards placing it near an existing entertainment area. That has make the Ford Center a much more successful building, IMO, than if it had been built somewhere else.

But perhaps the BOK Center's location will encourage more development around it.

I guarantee you the BOK Center is part of the impetus to improve the Ford Center, which, as mentioned, was built with some corner-cutting. I've been in a number of meetings recently regarding the proposed improvements to the FC, and the BOK Center, FedEx Forum and Sprint Center were specifically mentioned as reasons to make improvements to the FC, in order to remain competetive with regional cities.

I think the FC message is unfortunately being dominated with NBA stuff. Quite a few people in town are concerned that the public perception is that all, or even the majority of the money that is proposed to be spent on the FC is about securing the NBA. I think that's probably because, well, that seemed to be pretty much the ONLY message getting out. That probably has mostly to do with the timing, which is necessary to show good faith on the city's part to the NBA Board of Governors.

In reality, the vast amount of the upgrades are multi-event upgrades. The FC is not impressive as a building. It has great bones, but it's pretty dingy/cinderblocky, and holds up pretty poorly upon comparison to these other buildings. The upgrades will bring better concourse finishes, better restrooms, better concessions, better food service, better viewing areas, better mingling areas, child areas, more suites and other improvements to EVERY EVENT.

The portion of the proposed tax that would be directed at the NBA practice facility would ONLY happen if a team receives approval to locate prior to or within the first 12 months of the tax. If that happens, the tax would be extended to 15 months. After the practice facility is built, it would be owned by the city, and the team would actually pay rent on it. Also, they are exploring ways to make the practice facility multi-purpose, so it could also potentially benefit the community in other ways.

Another item related to the proposed renovation is a full-size warmup court. On the surface, most people would think that this is for the NBA. In reality, they would probably hardly use it. The people who have pushed for on-site warmup court facilities are actually the people who bring NCAA tourney and Big 12 tourney games to OKC. If you think about it, it makes sense. The teams not playing on the FC main court would be the ones utilizing the warmup court.

Anyway, the changes that are proposed for the FC are in many ways driven by competition from great facilities such as the one that it looks like T-town is building.

[SoonerInKCMO]

Speaking of the Sprint Center, BRJ - have you been up there to see it since it opened? You gotta go. Some of the vendors sell a 1/2 lb. hot dog covered in barbecued brisket. :D

[BigRedJed]

OMG. That sounds freaking amazing.

[Civicus_Sooner]

Who was the Ford Center built for? Or any of the arenas that have popped up in similar-sized cities? They're built to draw events to those cities that otherwise probably wouldn't come there.
We were either going to get NHL (thank God we didn't) or the NBA. That was way before we built the Ford Center.

[bluedogok]

In reality, the vast amount of the upgrades are multi-event upgrades. The FC is not impressive as a building. It has great bones, but it's pretty dingy/cinderblocky, and holds up pretty poorly upon comparison to these other buildings. The upgrades will bring better concourse finishes, better restrooms, better concessions, better food service, better viewing areas, better mingling areas, child areas, more suites and other improvements to EVERY EVENT.

The portion of the proposed tax that would be directed at the NBA practice facility would ONLY happen if a team receives approval to locate prior to or within the first 12 months of the tax. If that happens, the tax would be extended to 15 months. After the practice facility is built, it would be owned by the city, and the team would actually pay rent on it. Also, they are exploring ways to make the practice facility multi-purpose, so it could also potentially benefit the community in other ways.

Another item related to the proposed renovation is a full-size warmup court. On the surface, most people would think that this is for the NBA. In reality, they would probably hardly use it. The people who have pushed for on-site warmup court facilities are actually the people who bring NCAA tourney and Big 12 tourney games to OKC. If you think about it, it makes sense. The teams not playing on the FC main court would be the ones utilizing the warmup court.

Anyway, the changes that are proposed for the FC are in many ways driven by competition from great facilities such as the one that it looks like T-town is building.
The Ford Center was built on a budget and it shows, it was a 100 million arena when The Pepsi Center in Denver was built for $250 million and The American Airlines Center in Dallas was built for 300+, both of those also had debt at opening when the FC did not. That debt is why the Dallas Cowboys are going to be playing in Arlington instead of Fair Park. It was a budget arena to get approval, how many think it would have been approved by the voters if it had a $250 million budget? Upgrades only make sense as arenas are in competition for many different events, not just professional sports.

* I used to work for the company that did the Ford Center before moving to Austin in 2003. I didn't have anything to do with it since I worked on another team.

[BigRedJed]

That's the thing most people don't get about the FC. If an NBA team locates here, it would be the only NBA arena in America that doesn't have any debt service, even if the proposed tax and improvements happen. That's the single largest thing OKC has going for it. Not top-half-of-the-leage attendance for both years of the Hornets (although we had that), not top-five-in-the-league corporate investment (although we had that), it's the debt-free status of that building.

Arena debt is the main reason the Memphis Grizzlies are choking on it right now. A Debt-free arena allows us to keep average ticket prices in the bottom of the league (needed in this market), and still field a team with a healthy payroll, which (usually) adds up to a better team, which always adds up to better attendance.

No arena debt also allows concerts and other events to be more profitable (less rent) than comparable events in a similar building in another market. The economics are complex, but the Oklahoma City business model is exactly what the NBA is looking for in a smallish market. Hardly anybody, even sports writers and supposed NBA experts in other markets, realize this.

But the FC definitely was built on a budget. We got a lot of building for the money, but there was VERY little money spent on it, relative to other buildings. Now, what the people who say it's silly to spend $100+ million on building that cost $85 million fail to consider is that the FC would cost about $175 million to build as-is today. So in effect, we will end up with about a $275-$300 million value with a total of just over $200 million spent. It's still a massive bargain, and yet will put us head and shoulders with buildings like the BOK Center, the Pepsi Center, the FedEx Forum, etc.

Of course, it will NEVER compare with the AAC in Dallas. That place is $400 million of ridiculousness. But like bluedog mentioned, it also saddled Dallas with a lot of debt that has to be bourne by ticket purchasers to every event, and possibly kept the Cowboys from locating in Dallas proper, which longterm probably costs Dallas in the hundreds of millions, if not more.

Folks, it's really important for cities to stay competitive with buildings like this. Even if they never get big enough to host an NBA or NHL type team, Tulsa is going to see a rash of concerts and other huge events thanks to that arena. A multipurpose building like that is far bigger than just one team, and the positive benenfits ripple throughout the economy.

[OklahomaTuba]

No doubt Tulsa needed this to remain competitive (just like it needs roads that are more than 2 lanes or aren't crumbling, schools that don't suck, crime that isn't out of control, and taxes that aren't higher than most big cities).

The problem with Tulsa is vision and planning.

We have some fantastic areas of town that people love to go to, such as Cherry Street, Brookside, The River, Greenwood, Blue Dome, 18th Street, etc. I bring visitors from work to these places all the time. An Arena could be built in areas like this. We have large Arenas at 11th & Harvard, 81st & Lewis, The Fairgrounds, Union HS, etc. Putting an Arena near an area that is already developed has been done a lot, and should have been done this time.v

Yet, the city spends hundreds of millions of dollars of tax money, and puts it 2 blocks away from the jail, and across the street from the central post office, bus station, and more government buildings.

Now, how in the hell do you develop an area like that??

Oh, that's right, relocate the entire city government into the newest & nicest class A office building in town for +$60 Million, and hope more bums start fires I guess.

Good thing our city councilors got those nice corner offices they always wanted!

The arena will bring in cool shows, but it will do NOTHING to spur development in downtown Tulsa. It will end up being just like the PAC IMO.

[OklahomaTuba]

Imagine if this thing was built next to the cities other potential boondoggle, the new Drillers baseball stadium?

Tulsa could have had a wonderful Bricktown-like situation on its hands had someone had some vision.

[bluedogok]

But the FC definitely was built on a budget. We got a lot of building for the money, but there was VERY little money spent on it, relative to other buildings. Now, what the people who say it's silly to spend $100+ million on building that cost $85 million fail to consider is that the FC would cost about $175 million to build as-is today. So in effect, we will end up with about a $275-$300 million value with a total of just over $200 million spent. It's still a massive bargain, and yet will put us head and shoulders with buildings like the BOK Center, the Pepsi Center, the FedEx Forum, etc.
Yep, most of the new arenas being built are in the 500+ million area, even with 100M in additions it would still be a bargain.


Of course, it will NEVER compare with the AAC in Dallas. That place is $400 million of ridiculousness.
I went to an Avalanche-Stars playoff game there when I was working in Dallas 4 years ago, my seats were in the upper levels, and everything about the upper level sucks. They have too many pinch points for the light wells to the lower level to effectively move traffic through. The restrooms are stuck in nooks and crannies everywhere, as far as the upper level goes it is a functional disaster. The Ford Center just "works" much better overall, it doesn't seem as "money-centric" as the AAC, I would hope that the lower levels at the AAC work better than the upper levels.

[Sooner24]

Speaking of the Sprint Center, BRJ - have you been up there to see it since it opened? You gotta go. Some of the vendors sell a 1/2 lb. hot dog covered in barbecued brisket. :D


I will be there four weeks from today. :D

[birddog]

i'm disoriented.

[BigRedJed]

...Oklahoma City just "works" much better overall, it doesn't seem as "money-centric" as Dallas...
I agree.

[Civicus_Sooner]

Hey Jed, have you seen any polling numbers regarding the new tax for FC, etc?

They aren't good and if Funk opposes it, it could easily go down.

[BigRedJed]

Yep. I've seen 'em. The thing is a runaway success if the pool is "INFORMED" voters. Most of the resistance is not due to organized opposition or even factually correct info, but it's the only info a lot of voters have to work from It's a few points behind for strictly random samples, and they think it could be decided by as few as a couple hundred votes.

I blame the message, which has made this appear to be ONLY a pro-NBA referendum. It makes the assumption that the majority of OKC voters care about bringing the NBA here, or at least enough to tax themselves. Hardly anyone I speak with, even people I consider to be generally well informed, know how multipurpose (and needed) the improvements are, how little of the overall improvements are directly tied to an NBA relocation, the fact that the NBA component would not be built (or have tax collected for it) if a team doesn't relocate by the end of the first 12 months of the tax.

Once this is all carefully (and accurately) explained to people, there is generally an overwhelming support for the tax. Of course, there will always be a percentage that are against ANY tax, for ANY purpose.

I hope something as simple as the wrong message related to a good project doesn't create a huge and embarrassing mistake/setback for OKC.

One other item to consider: I think pollsters are starting to see major problems with getting accurate samples, thanks to the number of people who have abandoned residential land lines. If you don't have a land line, you won't get a call. Considering that a large number voters now have only cells, and considering the demographics associated with people who would go one way or the other, it's causing them fits.

[sooner_born_1960]

As far as I know, fall 2008 has always been the scheduled opening.
Oh. I was only going by the very first post in this thread.

[SleestakSooner]

The Ford Center was built for the express purpose of attracting a major league franchise to OKC, albeit an NHL franchise was the focus at the time as OKC was on the franchise watch list. Also, the OKC Blazers were a ready-made tenant of the Ford Center and have had the largest crowds in their league annually. Of course, the Ford Center has also attracted big time musical acts as promised with is in line with the entire MAPS project.

I am not slamming Tulsa, but I have never heard their name remotely mentioned for any type of sports franchise, etc. I understand attracting concerts, etc., but it takes more than those to justify the arena.

Yeah, Hanna Montana never would have come to OKC if it weren't for the Ford Center!

[Big Red Ron]

One other item to consider: I think pollsters are starting to see major problems with getting accurate samples, thanks to the number of people who have abandoned residential land lines. If you don't have a land line, you won't get a call. Considering that a large number voters now have only cells, and considering the demographics associated with people who would go one way or the other, it's causing them fits.Oh we've got their cell numbers too.;)

It creates a challenge but the number of cell phones only types still trends heavily on younger voters. Not a huge sample in any "likely voter" file anyway. On line polling also trends toward younger voters, if done right it's just as scientific and can easily make up for any potential sample deficiency.

[Mjcpr]

There was a great special section in today's Tulsa World about all things BOK Center. I thought it was very well done. It's available online as well:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/content/2007/slideshows/arena/index.aspx

[StoopTroup]

There was a great special section in today's Tulsa World about all things BOK Center. I thought it was very well done. It's available online as well:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/content/2007/slideshows/arena/index.aspx

I saw that awhile ago.

It is good.

[badger]

This is 9 pages long already, so sorry if this has already been said and I'll be brief:

The BOK Center passed through Vision 2025 because it offered something to everybody in Tulsa County, not just Tulsa (this is why the River Tax and many other tax initiatives fail hardcore up here, because not everyone directly benefits). Some of the things I remember offhand included Bixby getting new kiddo ballpark venues (it really is awesome, i've been there).

In order for new taxes to pass in Tulsa, they need to convince area voters that the benefits are in their area, not just their county.