Immigration and Refugee Acceptance is National Suicide

[SicEmBaylor]

http://www.grumpypolitico.com/2015/11/17/immigration-and-refugees-2/

With regard to immigration, Thomas Jefferson made his views clear, “Born in other countries, yet believing you could be happy in this, our laws acknowledge, as they should do, your right to join us in society, conforming, as I doubt not you will do, to our established rules. That these rules shall be as equal as prudential considerations will admit, will certainly be the aim of our legislatures, general and particular.” Jefferson’s abiding belief was that the United States represented a new sort of nation not seen on Earth to that point. He believed, as most of the founding generation, that the United States was the nation-state incarnation of the European Enlightenment. Few of these enlightened principles were more important than the right of the individual to remain free from the mandatory oppressive exercise of state sponsored religion; consequently, the individual would be at liberty to exercise religion of his or her own choosing. Freedom of religion became a constitutionally enshrined beacon to the rest of the world – it beckoned the religiously persecuted to come to our shores and participate in our society as full-fledged Americans. Jefferson continued, "We would be a nation welcoming with open arms with the expectation that new arrivals would conform to our customs and laws." In the case of the former, immigrants would be expected to embrace our liberalized republican government; in the case of the latter, immigrants were expected to live and maintain themselves within our rule of law. The population of Europe (predominantly) heard this pitch and flocked to the United States in the millions. It was a mutually beneficial system. Immigrants were free to live a life of their choosing in the United States while, in turn, immigrants provided much needed labor necessary for building a new continental nation. Immigration was good for the United States.

As good as immigration once was for America, it is now just as destructive. Time marches on and changing realities must often be met with changing policies. As conservatives, we cling to tradition and few traditions are as sacred as welcoming newcomers to our great nation. Yet, we occasionally reach a point where a need for change is obvious. We have reached that point. The United States was once a vast unchartered frontier, and now Google has instant “street view” coverage of nearly the entire nation. When the population of the United States in 1789 was roughly the size of Oklahoma, welcoming new citizens to our shores made sense. When we had an entire continent of wilderness to tame, settle, and build upon, encouraging immigration made sense. When we had a massive need for labor, encouraging immigration made sense. When we were not attempting to protect our homeland from internal subversion and horrific acts of terror, immigration made sense. None of those conditions remain and policy needs to reflect that change. It astonishes me that liberals, who constantly admonish conservatives for clinging to policies/ideas that are supposedly no longer relevant, themselves cling to a 1890s-era immigration policy. The only thing one can chalk that up to is limp-wristed white guilt and post-nationalist attitudes that don’t exactly put a high value on maintaining the cultural and national integrity of the nation.

Immigration represents a dangerous threat to our national existence, and it is not racist to point out the largest block of immigrants are Hispanics – that is simply the reality of the situation. Putting aside the severe strain on our already strained social services and local communities, these immigrants bring third world problems to the United States. They care very little to nothing for our western European heritage and identity. They care very little to nothing for the (small ‘l’) liberal principles of the Enlightenment that inspired the foundation of our nation. They care very little to nothing for the limited-constitutional (small ‘r’) republican government built by America’s Founding Fathers. What they care about is sucking this nation dry of resources by funneling cash back to Mexico and central America, undercutting our labor market thus depriving Americans of their birthright and jobs, and ultimately obtaining the right to vote (via legal means or otherwise) so they can cast a ballot for the guy who promises to cut them the biggest check, courtesy of the American taxpayer. This is a problem associated as much with legal immigrants as illegal immigrants, and it certainly not limited to Hispanics. The “Center for Immigration Studies” has found that an astounding 49% of legal immigrants take advantage of one or more social welfare programs. Social welfare programs ought to be limited in scope, consistent with the Constitution, and reserved for American citizens. It’s the American citizen that must ultimately pay the high cost of these programs, and the job market for those Americans continues to shrink as immigration grows. Cartel crime and gang violence are, furthermore, emblematic of the dangers posed by a porous and open southern border.

I favor a complete and total moratorium on all immigration, legal or otherwise, including an end to our student visa program. There is no inherent right for the rest of the world to immigrate to our shores, and our open-arms tradition is no longer relevant given the changes in America’s population size, the economy, and our national security situation. Immigration is a national cancer that will kill this country as assuredly as a nuclear holocaust. The importation of millions who do not share our values, do not want to share our values, and are potentially major security threats is reminiscent of the conditions leading to the downfall of the Roman Empire. Our national decay is real and only a swift unequivocal response can slow the process down. That is not to say that circumstances will not and cannot change requiring the United States to once again welcome immigration – it may very well be the case at some point in the future. Given that eventuality, I would fully support a “guest worker” program if/when the real unemployment rate dips below 5% and an industry can demonstrate a sustained labor shortage. This guest worker program should be limited; however, I would also support a “path to citizenship” component after a guest worker has been here some number of years. Opposition to immigration when it is needed is as nonsensical as favoring immigration when it is not.

Europe has its own immigration issue stemming from the high number of Muslims flooding the continent; Europe is being subverted from the inside-out by Syrian refugees, a portion of whom are undoubtedly associated with ISIS and other terrorist organizations. These are people who do not share European values, have no interest in integration, and have not been individually vetted for security concerns. This is as dangerous a policy for Europe in 2015 as it would have been had they thrown open the gates of Europe to the Ottoman Turks or the Moors. It will be the death of Europe, and allowing Syrian refugees into the United States is just as dangerous for precisely the same reasons. The governments of several eastern European nations instinctively understand this problem and are attempting to take steps to block or prevent the influx of further immigrants/refugees into their countries; however, Western Europe (especially Chancellor Merkel/Germany) has continued to embrace a policy of open borders and nearly unfettered access. Properly vetting these refugees is absolutely impossible, so nobody knows how many ISIS/jihadists have made their way into Europe via the refugee pipeline. The horrible attack in Paris was likely a prelude to what will happen throughout western Europe in the coming years with Germany being a likely next target. The attack may have served as a wake up call evidenced by the uptick in poll numbers for Le Pen’s National Party (France) even before the attack happened. No leader in Europe has been as welcoming as Chancellor Merkel in Germany, and she is facing the prospect of an internal party coup as a result of her blind, dangerous, and naïve policy toward Syrian refugees.

The Obama Administration is determined to repeat the mistake of Europe by allowing an influx of Syrian refugees into the United States. He has held firm with this policy even in the wake of the Paris attacks. Various state governors are making moves to block Syrian refugees from entering their respective states, and I applaud that action. Unfortunately, Gov. Fallin (R-OK) has stated her intention to allow refugees to enter the state. There is actually a great deal that the individual governors can do. Let’s not forget that the Founding Fathers designed the Constitution in such a way that the individual states reserved most power, especially almost all domestic policy concerns, to themselves. For far too long, governors and their respective states have kowtowed to the demands of an over-extended and unconstitutional Federal government. This issue, as much as any policy issue facing the states over the last 40-50 years, warrants an extreme and appropriate response from state governments. What should governors do?

First and foremost, they should order their respective National Guard units and state law enforcement agencies to block, detain, arrest, or otherwise prevent any Federal official from re-settling Syrian refugees within their borders. Second, both aforementioned collection of agencies should be ordered to arrest any Syrian refugees found within their borders. Third, airports and ports should both be monitored and screened for the arrival of any Syrian refugees. If the unimaginable happens and state officials come into direct physical confrontation with Federal authorities then so be it. The time is long past the point that the Federal government should be brought to heel by the individual states. Undoubtedly, this will involve the Federal courts and any ruling contrary to the wishes of the people of the individual states as expressed through their various state legislatures and governors should be summarily rejected and ignored by those same state governments effectively nullifying any Federal court ruling.

Jefferson’s belief in an open-arms policy to immigrants came with an important caveat – the expectation that immigrants would embrace our culture, values, and heritage while maintaining themselves within the law. Illegal immigration, by its very nature, violates the last of those requirements and conformity with the remaining is dubious at best. Not only does the illegal immigrant break the law of the United States, but their conformity to our value system is very much in question. Mexican separatist/nationalist groups like La Raza take a hard line against Mexican/Hispanic integration with traditional American culture and society; dangerously, they advocate the “re-conquest” of those parts of the United States formerly belonging to Mexico. These are not the immigrants Jefferson and the Founding Fathers imagined nor are they the same immigrants that eagerly arrived at Ellis Island with hopes of becoming fully American.

America is failing. It’s failing for a multitude of reasons; immigration, by no means, is solely responsible for our decline. It is nonetheless true that immigration (legal or otherwise) is a major contributing factor to that decline which is a trend that cannot and will not be reversed until the United States tightens its immigration policy. Nobody relishes the idea of turning away those desperate for opportunity free from impoverishment or desperate for safety free of persecution, but the United States must first get its own house in order. It must protect its historical western European heritage and culture, the safety of its citizens, the economic well-being of its citizens, and the financial stability of its local/state/Federal government. Meet those criteria first and then we can discuss once again opening our doors and welcoming those anxious to enjoy the opportunities America has to offer.

[Turd_Ferguson]

You bigoted, racist!!!


Totally agree.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I want to suggest something here, Sic Em, because you are clearly someone who puts in research of those topics that are important to you. My suggestion is this: shorter paragraphs.

I say this as someone with degrees in Literature, Business, and Law: Communication is important. You always make great points. But, your audience is not the same as those reading an academic journal.

Academic journals have long paragraphs and passages. And, that is fine, even appropriate for those academic-type audiences. Here, you information needs to be readable.

By readable, I mean less intimidating and easy to get through. I've gone through my academic career - Literature degree, minor in Political Science, Law degree - writing a ton. I find it best, when addressing non-academic audiences, to keep paragraphs to three or four sentences.

Although I didn't have to write as much for the business degree, what you learn in business is brevity for the sake of not losing a sale. So, again, in business letters, I'll cut down to two sentences per paragraph, three tops if absolutely necessary.

Your writing is very good. Your ideas are good. Your research and presentations of your points are excellent as well. It's just that many people will not slog through them because of the size of the paragraphs.

Cheers.

[swardboy]

I say we should always keep a path open to citizenship for the Swedish Bikini Team.

[dwarthog]

I say we should always keep a path open to citizenship for the Swedish Bikini Team.

SPEK!

[Soonerjeepman]

I say we should always keep a path open to citizenship for the Swedish Bikini Team.

without pics...it's dead

[Turd_Ferguson]

Send'm to Merkel...she'll take them.

[hawaii 5-0]

Guess we better give the Statue of Liberty back.

Give us your tired, your weary................................unless they're Muslim.

5-0

[SicEmBaylor]

Guess we better give the Statue of Liberty back.

Give us your tired, your weary................................unless they're human.

5-0
fify

[BoulderSooner79]

I say we should always keep a path open to citizenship for the Swedish Bikini Team.


Send'm to Merkel...she'll take them.

Are you saying Merkel is a lesbo ?

[FaninAma]

Why can't they establish no-fly safe zones in Turkey, Iran, Suadi Arabia, the UAE and Kuwait? There is only one reason the left insists on mass immigration of a poorly assimilating population into western countries.

[hawaii 5-0]

Anyone ever read about the Jews and their 'problems' right before WW2 ?

Lots of Americans didn't want them either. Back then it sucked to be born Jewish in Europe.

I'm still for lettin' some of the Syrians in, as long as they meet the stringent requirements. Nothing I've read says we're just gonna open the gates and give them free entry, no questions asked.

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[swardboy]

There are some mighty devout Christians from Syria. Many of whom have children in the U.S. who are doctors as well as other professionals. Maybe someone from Lebanon could put the greatness back into Jamil's Steakhouse in Tulsa. I propose settling about 50,000 in Jenks.

[Skysooner]

Yes, this thread is screaming for a picture.

http://mlblogsredstatebluestate.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/swedish_bikini_team-thumb-400x300-2450341.jpg?w=400&h=300

Swedish Bikini Team

[Soonerjeepman]

I'm all for the SBT to be assimilated into our society~

[Soonerjeepman]

Anyone ever read about the Jews and their 'problems' right before WW2 ?

Lots of Americans didn't want them either. Back then it sucked to be born Jewish in Europe.

I'm still for lettin' some of the Syrians in, as long as they meet the stringent requirements. Nothing I've read says we're just gonna open the gates and give them free entry, no questions asked.

5-0

Serious ? 5-0. Did the Jews bombed and kill innocent people who didn't believe the same? Just asking.

Quite honestly that leads to this....for the most part I've seen Christians (modern day) groups being compared to isis, and that there is no difference. I really have a hard time with that. The crazy group from Topeka...yeah they are crazy BUT they don't around killing people. Big difference.

1.8 BILLION muslim, MOST reports estimate 15-25% are radical...that's 270,000,000 folks that want to kill. It took 17 to kill 3000 Americans. You want those odds here?

[Serenity Now]

Serious ? 5-0. Did the Jews bombed and kill innocent people who didn't believe the same? Just asking.

Quite honestly that leads to this....for the most part I've seen Christians (modern day) groups being compared to isis, and that there is no difference. I really have a hard time with that. The crazy group from Topeka...yeah they are crazy BUT they don't around killing people. Big difference.

1.8 BILLION muslim, MOST reports estimate 15-25% are radical...that's 270,000,000 folks that want to kill. It took 17 to kill 3000 Americans. You want those odds here?

Those Syrians aren't radicalized. They're civilians. Steve Jobs is of Syrian descent. I can get on board with the fact that there are some wolves hiding in the sheep. However, according to the very LONG and well written article from the Atlantic, the radical ISIS members are staying there to fight to the end in their caliphate.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Security-Watch/terrorism-security/2015/0113/How-many-Muslim-extremists-are-there-Just-the-facts-please

[hawaii 5-0]

Serious ? 5-0. Did the Jews bombed and kill innocent people who didn't believe the same? Just asking.


1.8 BILLION muslim, MOST reports estimate 15-25% are radical...that's 270,000,000 folks that want to kill. It took 17 to kill 3000 Americans. You want those odds here?


Actually I was comparing the Jews to the Syrian refugees. Did the Syrian refugees kill and bomb anyone ?

Most of the refugees are farmers and regular civilians caught up in the Syrian civil war. They didn't asked to be mass murdered and displaced, much as the European Jews were.

Your claim of 15 - 25% of Muslims being radical is laughable. More like <1%. Ya know we have Muslims in our military ? And they're not all wacko like that Dr. who went berserk at Ft. Hood. Should we trust them ? They're probably all planning something.

I, for one refuse to be terrorized. Especially by some civilians with a different religion as me.

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[Tear Down This Wall]

Actually I was comparing the Jews to the Syrian refugees. Did the Syrian refugees kill and bomb anyone ?

Most of the refugees are farmers and regular civilians caught up in the Syrian civil war. They didn't asked to be mass murdered and displaced, much as the European Jews were.

Your claim of 15 - 25% of Muslims being radical is laughable. More like <1%. Ya know we have Muslims in our military ? And they're not all wacko like that Dr. who went berserk at Ft. Hood. Should we trust them ? They're probably all planning something.

I, for one refuse to be terrorized. Especially by some civilians with a different religion as me.

5-0

Yes, we're well aware that there are muslim in our military
http://media.lehighvalleylive.com/breaking-news_impact/photo/nidal-malik-hasan-fort-hood-horizontal-d4bad99d541c1941_large.jpg

Here's one of the survivors of his "service" to our country:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/08/28/article-2404766-1B81B5A1000005DC-854_634x421.jpg

[East Coast Bias]

I have mixed feelings on this. I feel like the refugee issue is mostly a political football right now and obviously the pubs are capitalizing on fear and have killed and buried us two or three times already. I know government is the boogie-man but vetting these refugees is a good example of where government can make a difference. On the other hand i think we have to wipe Isil out as they won't quit until they have converted or killed us all. Why couldn't we get together with 8 or 10 countries and take 200-300 thousand troops on the ground and wipe them out from alldirections? A nuclear bomb on Raqqua should also be on the table....

[champions77]

Actually I was comparing the Jews to the Syrian refugees. Did the Syrian refugees kill and bomb anyone ?

Most of the refugees are farmers and regular civilians caught up in the Syrian civil war. They didn't asked to be mass murdered and displaced, much as the European Jews were.

Your claim of 15 - 25% of Muslims being radical is laughable. More like <1%. Ya know we have Muslims in our military ? And they're not all wacko like that Dr. who went berserk at Ft. Hood. Should we trust them ? They're probably all planning something.

I, for one refuse to be terrorized. Especially by some civilians with a different religion as me.

5-0

I wonder how many more have to die before you and your lefty buddies WTHU? I guess you haven't noticed how 90% of the boat people coming over to Europe are military age males? Good luck on your vetting process. I'm sure the goat farmer has quite the history that can be accessed.
What part of the US being 19 TRILLION in debt do you not understand?
Doesn't it make more sense to set them up in safe zones providing food, temporary housing and medical supplies in an area close to their home? Does Messiah ever bother to do a risk/reward analysis before making all of these "heartfelt" decisions? Does he ever listen to those that have an infinite amount of knowledge about areas he is clueless about? I don't know how many Directors of the FBI, Generals, Governors or Homeland Security folks that have stepped forward stating that there is risk in bringing Syrians over here now? But he continues to do what HE wants. Common Sense? With BHO? ....it ain't common.

BHO is intent on if not destroying this Nation at least diminishing it to a large degree. How else can you arrive at any other conclusion? Glad you and your lefty buddies think ALL he does is fine. I just hope we can survive another 13 months of him.

[Serenity Now]

You guys never will admit to helping Dick Cheney and W. get this whole ISIS group started in the first place. Hell, McCain was cavorting with them just a few years ago.

[Serenity Now]

France is still accepting refugees. They're braver than we are.

[Soonerjeepman]

Actually I was comparing the Jews to the Syrian refugees. Did the Syrian refugees kill and bomb anyone ?

Most of the refugees are farmers and regular civilians caught up in the Syrian civil war. They didn't asked to be mass murdered and displaced, much as the European Jews were.

Your claim of 15 - 25% of Muslims being radical is laughable. More like <1%. Ya know we have Muslims in our military ? And they're not all wacko like that Dr. who went berserk at Ft. Hood. Should we trust them ? They're probably all planning something.

I, for one refuse to be terrorized. Especially by some civilians with a different religion as me.

5-0

that calls for killing on non-believers..gotcha. I guess considering you live in Hawaii maybe you can convince your governor to step up and take them there...and you're willing to bet the house on any of them.

so, 1% if 1.8 BILLION is 180,000 so lets go less, since it took 17 to kill 3000+ Americans, 7 to kill 139 "French"...so let's say a measly 200 make it in to the CONTINENTAL USA...the numbers don't look good.

As far as your asinine statement of a different religion...what a joke. Of course typical liberal "intolerance" reply. I could care less what religion, if any, they or anyone else is. If your objective is to not assimilate into our society then stay home.

NO ONE can do a decent background check...NO ONE...it's not a political issue it's a SAFETY ISSUE. Sorry, I don't want 1 American dying because of the love fest for the "minorities". AND as 77 said, our economy and gov are not in the best shape to be handing out free ****...crap help OUR people first~

[champions77]

You guys never will admit to helping Dick Cheney and W. get this whole ISIS group started in the first place. Hell, McCain was cavorting with them just a few years ago.

They started in 2006, I'll give you that, but they metastasized under BHO the last two years. Can you be honest enough to admit that? Who has even heard of them until less than two years ago? JV is just one example of many that this clueless President has displayed. You wonder does he ever listen to anyone, or is everything he says or does predicated on his political ideas and policies foremost, what his advisors tell him be damned. If anything presents itself in opposition, he'll take the path that he wants to take, every time, most of the times to the detriment of this Nation.

The weakness that BHO displays encourages/emboldens radical groups like Isis or Boko Haram, to ramp up their efforts and thus their destruction. Can anyone on here honestly state anything to the contrary?

[okie52]

France is still accepting refugees. They're braver than we are.

More stupid would better describe it.

Is Europe offering to take any of the 11,000,000 squatters we have here?

[TAFBSooner]

The weakness that BHO displays encourages/emboldens radical groups like Isis or Boko Haram, to ramp up their efforts and thus their destruction. Can anyone on here honestly state anything to the contrary?

Absolutely. I don't think it was any "weakness" on the part of the Russians and French that led IS to attack the airliner and Paris, respectively. To the contrary, those attacks happened after Russia and France had been taking the fight to Islamists in Syria and Africa.

Obama has made mistakes, like letting the Kagan clan pick a fight with Russia over Ukraine. That was beyond stupid, but it wasn't weakness. He showed indecisiveness over switching from aiding Assad's enemies to the need to take on the caliphate. You can call that weakness on offense if you want.

Defensively, apparently we're a somewhat harder target than France, since there haven't been any mass Islamist attacks in the US since 9/11.

[hawaii 5-0]

(Note to self)

Don't argue with stupid.


5-0

[champions77]

Absolutely. I don't think it was any "weakness" on the part of the Russians and French that led IS to attack the airliner and Paris, respectively. To the contrary, those attacks happened after Russia and France had been taking the fight to Islamists in Syria and Africa.

Obama has made mistakes, like letting the Kagan clan pick a fight with Russia over Ukraine. That was beyond stupid, but it wasn't weakness. He showed indecisiveness over switching from aiding Assad's enemies to the need to take on the caliphate. You can call that weakness on offense if you want.

Defensively, apparently we're a somewhat harder target than France, since there haven't been any mass Islamist attacks in the US since 9/11.

ISIS filled the vacuum that was left when we vacated all US troops from Iraq. Isis was opportunistic and cashed in on an opportunity. I call that a show of weakness. Obama calls it keeping his far left constituency happy.
If you really believe that the US cutting it's defense budget, and cancelling our plans to install the missile shield in eastern Europe is not seen as capitulation by our adversaries, then what is it?
Your hero showed an acute level of naiveté in foreign affairs when campaigning for President, and has done nothing to diminish or dispel that label since. He thinks by releasing GITMO prisoners, that it will buy favor with Radical Islam. He thinks by running around criticizing this nation to others...will somehow make others respect us more. He thinks that refusing to use the term "Radical Islam....will make them like us better. Thinks if he used that term, it would foster even worse feelings for the US by Radical Islam. Red Line in Syria, He releases 5 more GITMO fighters....the day after the tragedy in Paris. Really?

This is a President that uses much stronger language in dealing with his Republicans opponents....than he does in discussing our enemies.

Never been one like Barack Hussein Obama before....hope to God there is never another one like him again.

[Serenity Now]

ISIS filled the vacuum that was left when we vacated all US troops from Iraq. Isis was opportunistic and cashed in on an opportunity. I call that a show of weakness. Obama calls it keeping his far left constituency happy.
If you really believe that the US cutting it's defense budget, and cancelling our plans to install the missile shield in eastern Europe is not seen as capitulation by our adversaries, then what is it?
Your hero showed an acute level of naiveté in foreign affairs when campaigning for President, and has done nothing to diminish or dispel that label since. He thinks by releasing GITMO prisoners, that it will buy favor with Radical Islam. He thinks by running around criticizing this nation to others...will somehow make others respect us more. He thinks that refusing to use the term "Radical Islam....will make them like us better. Thinks if he used that term, it would foster even worse feelings for the US by Radical Islam. He releases 5 more GITMO fighters....the day after the tragedy in Paris. Really?

This is a President that uses much stronger language in dealing with his Republicans opponents....than he does in discussing our enemies.

Never been one like Barack Hussein Obama before....hope to God there is never another one like him again.

The agreement that W. signed in 2008.

Shutting down GITMO wouldn't buy favoritism from radical islam. What it might do was not give radical Islam a recruitment tool for potential new members. Just like this current political football on refugees. ISIS is trying to highlight to potential radicals that the US and Europe are happy to take the oil from the ME and send in drones and support a dictator like Assad but when it comes to dealing with the humanitarian fall out from these actions they group all of Islam together. They're winning this battle. Hell, how many Syrian refugees would actually come here? Not many.

[FaninAma]

The agreement that W. signed in 2008.

Shutting down GITMO wouldn't buy favoritism from radical islam. What it might do was not give radical Islam a recruitment tool for potential new members. Just like this current political football on refugees. ISIS is trying to highlight to potential radicals that the US and Europe are happy to take the oil from the ME and send in drones and support a dictator like Assad but when it comes to dealing with the humanitarian fall out from these actions they group all of Islam together. They're winning this battle. Hell, how many Syrian refugees would actually come here? Not many.

Bush's agreement never required a complete drawdown of military personnel in the region. That is something Obama conjured up. Also, I think ISIS is the unintended consequence of the effort by HRC and Obama to get rid of Assad. If the military hadn't intervened in Egypt we could add that country to the catastrophes resulting from their "Arab Spring" policies in Syria and Libya.

[champions77]

Bush's agreement never required a complete drawdown of military personnel in the region. That is something Obama conjured up. Also, I think ISIS is the unintended consequence of the effort by HRC and Obama to get rid of Assad. If the military hadn't intervened in Egypt we could add that country to the catastrophes resulting from their "Arab Spring" policies in Syria and Libya.

I get so tired of that lame excuse that Obama was abiding by W's Agreement in Iraq to withdraw troops. Really? Since when does BHO abide by any law or rule? He darn sure doesn't abide by the terms of the US Constitution does he? Please tell me that if Obama met with the Iraq President about staying longer that he wouldn't have been overjoyed to know that his new Democracy could be backed with the US Military for a longer period?

[Serenity Now]

I get so tired of that lame excuse that Obama was abiding by W's Agreement in Iraq to withdraw troops. Really? Since when does BHO abide by any law or rule? He darn sure doesn't abide by the terms of the US Constitution does he? Please tell me that if Obama met with the Iraq President about staying longer that he wouldn't have been overjoyed to know that his new Democracy could be backed with the US Military for a longer period?

Actually, the new President wanted us out. The criticism is that Obama wasn't forceful enough. I can get on board with that. But we should give Cheney and W. full credit for creating ISIS with hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties and a vacuum of power from Syria to Iran.

[SoonerorLater]

Why would we want to allow these people into the country? How could anybody think this is a good idea?

Their value system both religious and cultural are antithetical to the ideals of America. We're doing nothing more than importing problems to our doorstep. We can see the chaos this is causing in Europe but this country's leadership willfully disregards the interest of our people for their own agenda. Is it any wonder Trump has such a tailwind?

[Serenity Now]

Why would we want to allow these people into the country? How could anybody think this is a good idea?

Their value system both religious and cultural are antithetical to the ideals of America. We're doing nothing more than importing problems to our doorstep. We can see the chaos this is causing in Europe but this country's leadership willfully disregards the interest of our people for their own agenda. Is it any wonder Trump has such a tailwind?
Steve jobs. Son of a Syrian immigrant.

[SoonerorLater]

Steve jobs. Son of a Syrian immigrant.

.....and yet I don't find that a compelling argument to boatload tons of people who have no interest in the values of this country.

[FaninAma]

duplicate

[FaninAma]

Actually, the new President wanted us out. The criticism is that Obama wasn't forceful enough. I can get on board with that. But we should give Cheney and W. full credit for creating ISIS with hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties and a vacuum of power from Syria to Iran.
Obama's general staff recommended getting rid of al-Maliki but Obama ignored them. The US didn't need a status of forces agreement to stay in Iraq. Obama just wanted an excuse to pull the troops out.

[FaninAma]

Steve jobs. Son of a Syrian immigrant.
Who gave him up for adoption. Steve Wozniak was the real brain behind Apple anyway.

[FaninAma]

But we should give Cheney and W. full credit for creating ISIS with hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties and a vacuum of power from Syria to Iran.
Uh, no. Obama, Hillary and their idiotic Arab Spring policies deserve credit for ISIL.
http://truthinmedia.com/reality-check-proof-u-s-government-wanted-isis-to-emerge-in-syria/

[yermom]

Who gave him up for adoption. Steve Wozniak was the real brain behind Apple anyway.

That's why they went to **** without him...

[Serenity Now]

Obama's general staff recommended getting rid of al-Maliki The US didn't need a status of forces agreement to stay in Iraq.
Then why did Bush sign one?

[FaninAma]

That's why they went to **** without him...
the intellectual property of Apple would have eventually reached the market whether it was through Jobs marketing or somebody else's.

[FaninAma]

Then why did Bush sign one?
Because he was a dumbass. I bet McAurthur never let the Japanese dictate the terms of the occupying Allied force in Japan after the war. It is just one more consequence of fighting a politically correct war. Obama needed a new Salafis force to weaken Assad but he(Obama) was too weak to see the strategy through. The use of chemical weapons was the window to allow Obama to use force to finish Assad off but Obama was too squishy to follow through on his threat similar to Kennedy's failed leadership at the Bay of Pigs.

[BoulderSooner79]

Obama's general staff recommended getting rid of al-Maliki but Obama ignored them. The US didn't need a status of forces agreement to stay in Iraq. Obama just wanted an excuse to pull the troops out.

He didn't need an excuse to get out - it was the right thing to do. His problem is he failed to get it done. That meme about leaving 10k troops is just political BS. When 10k failed to keep Iraq intact, his critics would have said he should have left 20k and so on. The only way to keep Iraq intact in the form that it was with a puppet government would be to leave 100k+ troups there indefinitely. And for absolutely no gain or purpose other than trying to save some sort of "face". Stupid. One thing Obama did accomplish is let the truth out that Iraq is not a real country with a real government that the people there would ever accept. Some of those towns under IS actually want to keep it that way because they prefer that to the Maliki government. They are Sunnis and the Maliki gov is run by Shia. We are strangers in a strange land there.

[champions77]

He didn't need an excuse to get out - it was the right thing to do. His problem is he failed to get it done. That meme about leaving 10k troops is just political BS. When 10k failed to keep Iraq intact, his critics would have said he should have left 20k and so on. The only way to keep Iraq intact in the form that it was with a puppet government would be to leave 100k+ troups there indefinitely. And for absolutely no gain or purpose other than trying to save some sort of "face". Stupid. One thing Obama did accomplish is let the truth out that Iraq is not a real country with a real government that the people there would ever accept. Some of those towns under IS actually want to keep it that way because they prefer that to the Maliki government. They are Sunnis and the Maliki gov is run by Shia. We are strangers in a strange land there.

That political "BS" as you call it was endorsed by the Commanders on the ground. 10,000 American soldiers, coupled with our Air Power would have destroyed the ISIS murdering thugs before they got a foothold in Iraq and Syria. They did not become powerful until they acquired US abandoned tanks and artillery and took over territory and the money in the banks of conquered towns. That would not have happened with a US presence. It just wouldn't have. Thousands of lives would have been saved and Russia would not in all likelihood have seen an opportunity in Syria. Now we have both.
I think maybe our President should maybe look for another line of work. This "Commander in Chief" gig is not setting too well with him. He lets his devotion to his politics and his allegiance to his far left constituents overwhelm any common sense as a Commander in Chief. He has been exposed as a phony not only by the right, but also as to our adversaries. Mr. Tough guy he ain't. I bet he has to "squat" to take a ****.

[BoulderSooner79]

That political "BS" as you call it was endorsed by the Commanders on the ground. 10,000 American soldiers, coupled with our Air Power would have destroyed the ISIS murdering thugs before they got a foothold in Iraq and Syria. They did not become powerful until they acquired US abandoned tanks and artillery and took over territory and the money in the banks of conquered towns. That would not have happened with a US presence. It just wouldn't have. Thousands of lives would have been saved and Russia would not in all likelihood have seen an opportunity in Syria. Now we have both.
I think maybe our President should maybe look for another line of work. This "Commander in Chief" gig is not setting too well with him. He lets his devotion to his politics and his allegiance to his far left constituents overwhelm any common sense as a Commander in Chief. He has been exposed as a phony not only by the right, but also as to our adversaries. Mr. Tough guy he ain't. I bet he has to "squat" to take a ****.

You could have just said that you accept all political spin verbatim and saved yourself some typing. The Iraqi army abandons all the US equipment because they are not committed to the fight. It's been proven repeatedly that when a 1000 US trained and well equipped Iraq soldiers are confronted by 100 ISIS or Al Queda fighters, they abandon the vehicles and weapons (US paid for) and run. And when our top brass calls them out on it, they are forced to apologize for insulting the Iraqi army. Then we have to go bomb our own $1M Humvees with $250k bombs. Great if you are invested in the defense industry. Yes, we could hold serve by keeping troups there indefinitely (and lots of them). But still, there is no purpose - nothing in for us other than to have a few of our boys and girls picked off occasionally by snipers and IEDs. ISIS was going to form - it's part of the whole Arab spring revolt and the entire underground dissatisfaction of the populous there. We accelerated it with Iraq, but it was going to happen. Go ahead and think we have so much influence there we could have stopped it. It ties in well with political divides, but not reality. The only thing that will settle this is the Arab countries themselves rolling up their sleeves and doing something. We hamper that by picking sides just as Russia is making a terrible mess by supporting Bashir.

[champions77]

Not committed to the fight?
Obama's words in speech in 2011;

Today, I can announce that our review is complete, and that the United States will pursue a new strategy to end the war in Iraq through a transition to full Iraqi responsibility.

This strategy is grounded in a clear and achievable goal shared by the Iraqi people and the American people: an Iraq that is sovereign, stable, and self-reliant.

So either BHO was naïve as to how really self reliant Iraq could be, or he was lying through his teeth in order to escape Iraq and placate his far left pacifist constituents. Take your pick.

[FaninAma]

He didn't need an excuse to get out - it was the right thing to do. His problem is he failed to get it done. That meme about leaving 10k troops is just political BS. When 10k failed to keep Iraq intact, his critics would have said he should have left 20k and so on. The only way to keep Iraq intact in the form that it was with a puppet government would be to leave 100k+ troups there indefinitely. And for absolutely no gain or purpose other than trying to save some sort of "face". Stupid. One thing Obama did accomplish is let the truth out that Iraq is not a real country with a real government that the people there would ever accept. Some of those towns under IS actually want to keep it that way because they prefer that to the Maliki government. They are Sunnis and the Maliki gov is run by Shia. We are strangers in a strange land there.

Was it the right thing to do to pull out all residual forces in South Korea? Think where the world would be today if we had done that and China/North Korea had nothing to deter them from reinvading South Korea. The North Vietnamese waited until Nixon, weakended by the Watergate scandal, pulled all US troops out of South Vietnam. Then they wiped their asses with the Paris Peace Accord and invaded the South.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[yermom]

how many suicide bombers were coming in from North Korea?

how many Iraqis really give a damn about "Iraq"?

this is the same issue with comparing Iraq or Afghanistan with Germany or Japan. there was a national identity there, and a culture that was uniform.

we toppled the only government holding Iraq together, and there wasn't really one in Afghanistan to begin with.

[FaninAma]

how many suicide bombers were coming in from North Korea?
That's a silly comparison since the North Koreans would send waves of men toward machine gun positions until the macine guns overheated and melted down.


how many Iraqis really give a damn about "Iraq"?
I don't know but there are probably several that would prefer not to be beheaded or murdered by islamic radicals.


this is the same issue with comparing Iraq or Afghanistan with Germany or Japan. there was a national identity there, and a culture that was uniform.
How about Vietnam? The fact of the matter is by withdrawing all US forces a power vacuum was created. Any goal to establish a national identity was essentially eneded at that point.


we toppled the only government holding Iraq together, and there wasn't really one in Afghanistan to begin with.
Hence the need to leave a residual force. The worst decision, in retrospect, was to go into Iraq. The 2nd worst decision was to completely withdraw all forces.

[Ton Loc]

http://abc7.com/news/multiple-victims-feared-in-active-shooter-situation-in-san-bernardino/1106844/

Looks like three white dudes just killed 12 people so far.
That puts white dudes +12 in the body count war versus Syrians and all other refugees today. I shutter to think what the numbers over the last tens years are. 1000 to 1 maybe.

And while Sic writes well worded paragraphs of mostly nonsense - We continue to place our fears in all the wrong buckets.

Sic - it's only nonsense because of where you've posted this and the fact that most of us won't read it and even less will truly understand what you meant.

[Serenity Now]

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/08/07/645421/right-wing-extremism/

I harken back to the day that Obama was catching heat because the Department of Homeland Security was warning that right wing extremists were going to be trouble. Who'd a thunk it?

And, to be fair, I have no idea of the ethnicity or political motivation of these idiots today. My assumption is that they're not Syrian refugees or illegal fruit pickers from south of Tijuana. So, I could be wrong...

[FaninAma]

So, Ton Loc and Serenity are on the record with the opinion that the shooters are probably right-winged and white. Let's wait and see if they are right.

[Ton Loc]

So, Ton Loc and Serenity are on the record with the opinion that the shooters are probably right-winged and white. Let's wait and see if they are right.

They were wearing the crazy white dude uniform. Camo, Masks, Body Armor, etc. I'll bet you two weeks of you not posting here they were white.

Also - there have been more mass shootings than days in the year. Yay! America! Guns! Idiots! Misplaced outrage and anger!

[BoulderSooner79]

That Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood shooter:

- handed out anti-Obama pamplets
- declared himself as an evangelical Christian
- has deep suspicion of the Feds
- owns assault weapons (duh)
- vigorously anti-abortion rights (duh)
- is old and white (duh)

I was thinking we should take a quick role call around here. Any regular posters conspicuously absent the last week ?

(Thank-you, I'll be here all week)

[FaninAma]

That Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood shooter:

- handed out anti-Obama pamplets
- declared himself as an evangelical Christian
- has deep suspicion of the Feds
- owns assault weapons (duh)
- vigorously anti-abortion rights (duh)
- is old and white (duh)

I was thinking we should take a quick role call around here. Any regular posters conspicuously absent the last week ?

(Thank-you, I'll be here all week)

Heh. He apparently also frequented pro-cannabis websites. Is there any connection there? I think we can all agree the common thread in all of these shooters is a significant amount of mental illness. I am all in for a solution to keeping guns out of the hands of mentally ill people.

[FaninAma]

They were wearing the crazy white dude uniform. Camo, Masks, Body Armor, etc. I'll bet you two weeks of you not posting here they were white.

Also - there have been more mass shootings than days in the year. Yay! America! Guns! Idiots! Misplaced outrage and anger!
No self-respecting white, right-wing extremist would be caught dead using an AK-47. Now if it had been an AR-15. Again, I am all for getting guns out of the hands of whack jobs. How do you do that. There is never, ever going to be a mass confiscation of guns in this country.

[Ton Loc]

No self-respecting white, right-wing extremist would be caught dead using an AK-47. Now if it had been an AR-15. Again, I am all for getting guns out of the hands of whack jobs. How do you do that. There is never, ever going to be a mass confiscation of guns in this country.

You're right. I agree with all of the above. The AK does scare me a bit in my crazy white dude bet.

[Serenity Now]

So, Ton Loc and Serenity are on the record with the opinion that the shooters are probably right-winged and white. Let's wait and see if they are right.

I will admit to being guilty of profiling. I was going to put a smiley face but this is not a funny topic.

[Serenity Now]

No self-respecting white, right-wing extremist would be caught dead using an AK-47. Now if it had been an AR-15. Again, I am all for getting guns out of the hands of whack jobs. How do you do that. There is never, ever going to be a mass confiscation of guns in this country.

Do you think staff at a public health facility would know the difference between an AK-47, an AR-15 or a M-16? I wouldn't and I grew up in a house with 3 loaded pistols, a shotgun and a M-1 Carbine. Plus I've been to a rodeo and two worlds fairs.

[Serenity Now]

That Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood shooter:

- handed out anti-Obama pamplets
- declared himself as an evangelical Christian
- has deep suspicion of the Feds
- owns assault weapons (duh)
- vigorously anti-abortion rights (duh)
- is old and white (duh)

I was thinking we should take a quick role call around here. Any regular posters conspicuously absent the last week ?

(Thank-you, I'll be here all week)
I've asked for the same headcount before. It was an unpopular post. It could explain my current total of close to -5,000,000 points in spek, whatever the F that it is.

[Serenity Now]

http://www.infowars.com/san-bernardino-shooting-highly-suspicious/

This is the same outfit that brings up conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook, so, take it for what it's worth. The outright slaughter of 26 innocents did nothing to change things. This won't either.

I will say that I think if this were ISIS/Al-Q level terrorists they'd hit somewhere bigger and they'd stick around to martyr themselves to stir up the hatred of them for PR value in an effort to pull us into their version of the apocolypse. That and the black SUV is what leads me to my assumption that it's whitey. If it were a 1996 Chevy Astrovan with side panels I might switch back to ME.

[Serenity Now]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVGFfPpU8AAdXKB.jpg

[BoulderSooner79]

Heh. He apparently also frequented pro-cannabis websites. Is there any connection there? I think we can all agree the common thread in all of these shooters is a significant amount of mental illness. I am all in for a solution to keeping guns out of the hands of mentally ill people.

Can you imagine how angry this guy would be with no cannabis to calm him down?

[BoulderSooner79]

I've asked for the same headcount before. It was an unpopular post. It could explain my current total of close to -5,000,000 points in spek, whatever the F that it is.

Dang, I thought I was original - and darn funny too! My mom laughed.

[FaninAma]

I admit I laughed.

[Turd_Ferguson]

http://www.infowars.com/san-bernardino-shooting-highly-suspicious/

This is the same outfit that brings up conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook, so, take it for what it's worth. The outright slaughter of 26 innocents did nothing to change things. This won't either.

I will say that I think if this were ISIS/Al-Q level terrorists they'd hit somewhere bigger and they'd stick around to martyr themselves to stir up the hatred of them for PR value in an effort to pull us into their version of the apocolypse. That and the black SUV is what leads me to my assumption that it's whitey. If it were a 1996 Chevy Astrovan with side panels I might switch back to ME.

You, are a ****ing moran.

[Serenity Now]

You, are a ****ing moran.
Can't even spell moron. :)

[Turd_Ferguson]

Do you think staff at a public health facility would know the difference between an AK-47, an AR-15 or a M-16? I wouldn't and I grew up in a house with 3 loaded pistols, a shotgun and a M-1 Carbine. Plus I've been to a rodeo and two worlds fairs.

This is the AK-47 assault rifle, the preferred weapon of your enemy, and it makes a very distinctive sound when fired at you, so remember it.
http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/assault/as01/ak47_1.jpg

[dwarthog]

http://abc7.com/news/multiple-victims-feared-in-active-shooter-situation-in-san-bernardino/1106844/

Looks like three white dudes just killed 12 people so far.
That puts white dudes +12 in the body count war versus Syrians and all other refugees today. I shutter to think what the numbers over the last tens years are. 1000 to 1 maybe.

And while Sic writes well worded paragraphs of mostly nonsense - We continue to place our fears in all the wrong buckets.

Sic - it's only nonsense because of where you've posted this and the fact that most of us won't read it and even less will truly understand what you meant.

Syed Farook and a female whose name apparently is something that may be similar.

Yep, "white guys".

[Serenity Now]

This is the AK-47 assault rifle, the preferred weapon of your enemy, and it makes a very distinctive sound when fired at you, so remember it.
http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/assault/as01/ak47_1.jpg

As a 48 year old father of 3 school age kids who works 40 hours a week in an office I will put that in my memory bank. Thanks! I'm sure that will come in handy.

My neighbor is a federal marshal who drew his AK-47 on people vandalizing our neighborhood. My pharmacist friend has one as well.

[Serenity Now]

Syed Farook and a female whose name apparently is something that may be similar.

Yep, "white guys".
I said I was profiling. Here's the other mass shooting of today. Look for the news for tomorrow's!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/02/the-other-mass-shooting-that-happened-today-in-the-united-states/

[Turd_Ferguson]

They were wearing the crazy white dude uniform. Camo, Masks, Body Armor, etc. I'll bet you two weeks of you not posting here they were white.

Also - there have been more mass shootings than days in the year. Yay! America! Guns! Idiots! Misplaced outrage and anger!

See ya in two weeks, ya stereotyping racist.

[dwarthog]

I said I was profiling. Here's the other mass shooting of today. Look for the news for tomorrow's!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/02/the-other-mass-shooting-that-happened-today-in-the-united-states/

Really? Did you even read the actual 3 paragraphs or just swallow the Post's headline as the whole truth?

A quote from a comment to that 3 paragraphs.


I am from Savannah. This is a crime infested, drug laden area with mostly criminal elements roaming the streets after dark. The area is so bad that my husband who works for a major pest control company says that no techs are allowed to be in that area after dark for their own safety. Numerous attempts have been made to better the area but until the community aids in this effort little to nothing will or has changed


You're reaching here....

[Serenity Now]

Really? Did you even read the actual 3 paragraphs or just swallow the Post's headline as the whole truth?

A quote from a comment to that 3 paragraphs.




You're reaching here....

Mass shooting is mass shooting (defined as 4+ victims).

[FaninAma]

I said I was profiling. Here's the other mass shooting of today. Look for the news for tomorrow's!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/02/the-other-mass-shooting-that-happened-today-in-the-united-states/
Any guesss as to the race of the shooter in this case? As long as we're all on board with profiling I read an editorial that stated if guns were taken away from those groups that largely support Democrats the homicide rate in this country would drop below those of European countries. Are you on board?

Democrats....breaking down families and creating dysfunctional individuals for 70 years.

[dwarthog]

Mass shooting is mass shooting (defined as 4+ victims).

Geez...

Still didn't read it?

4+ = >4...




Around 1:30 a.m. shots were fired in the 100 block of West 33rd Street near Barnard Street.

One victim went to a nearby fire stations for help. Police found the other three other victims on West 33rd.

Three men were taken to the hospital in stable condition. The fourth victim, a woman, died.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Geez...

Still didn't read it?

4+ = >4...

Lib's be slow don't ya know. Also, this was black on black crime. The media only cares when honky's start kill'n peeps.

[Serenity Now]

Geez...

Still didn't read it?

4+ = >4...

You're really wanting to disagree, huh?

Utilizing the FBI's definition of "Mass Murder" as 4 or more, this would qualify as a "mass shooting". Is this workplace violence or terrorism? We're really arguing about the fabric on the deck chairs on the Titanic.

[FaninAma]

You're really wanting to disagree, huh?

Utilizing the FBI's definition of "Mass Murder" as 4 or more, this would qualify as a "mass shooting". Is this workplace violence or terrorism? We're really arguing about the fabric on the deck chairs on the Titanic.

There is a decent chance that the incident in your link was a drug deal gone bad. I am sure the participants would comply with more stringent gun control laws than are now on the books. LOL.

[Serenity Now]

There is a decent chance that the incident in your link was a drug deal gone bad. I am sure the participants would comply with more stringent gun control laws than are now on the books. LOL.

I agree with you. I was referring as to whether the San Bernardino thing was "workplace violence" or terrorism. I read they were using .223 and not AK-47. You know, the preferred weapon of my enemy that makes a distinct sound when fired?

[Turd_Ferguson]

I agree with you. I was referring as to whether the San Bernardino thing was "workplace violence" or terrorism. I read they were using .223 and not AK-47. You know, the preferred weapon of my enemy that makes a distinct sound when fired?

S&W M&P-15 was one of the long guns and the other model was a .223 as well but one I've never heard of.(edit:the other rifle was a DPMS AR-15, which looks pretty much like the one pictured below.)

Here's the Smith & Wesson.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/zoom_lg/811036_01_lg.jpg

[dwarthog]

You're really wanting to disagree, huh?

Utilizing the FBI's definition of "Mass Murder" as 4 or more, this would qualify as a "mass shooting". Is this workplace violence or terrorism? We're really arguing about the fabric on the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Well, to be pedantic. Murder = death. Only one dead in that fracas your referencing.

Fencing over numbers is moot.

I'm as fed up with this crap as anyone else is. I'm tired of reading the headlines about more people getting killed either 1 at a time or in groups. It's really complete BS to try and sort the problem by orders of magnitude and assign a higher value to a death if included in a group of 4 or more.

I'm also tired of this administration and it sycophants trying to force feed us a $hit sandwich and then use it to try and take away our rights.

If the people, don't care who/where they come from, cannot handle these rights as granted at the founding of "our" country then they are in the wrong damn place and they do no belong here nor do we have any responsibilities to attempt to integrate them.

It's shear insanity to continue going down the liberalism path, thinking the outcomes will be different if only everyones rights are taken away from them. (France still got shot all to hell.)

It's up to the people to live up to these freedoms. IF they can't, or have belief systems that they feel supersede our rights then we really have no business trying to accommodate them.

I'm sorry if that doesn't make others "feel good" but I be damn if I'm going to subject myself to the worry that one of these ticking time bombs is going to go visit the Middle East for a month of studying the "Religion of Peace" and come back radicalized and plan to go shoot up some place where more of my fellow law abiding citizens are living their lives.

This thread's title is indeed accurate IMO.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Syed Farook and a female whose name apparently is something that may be similar.

Yep, "white guys".
Don't ya know, these are "white arabs" or "white immigrants" just like Zimmerman was a "white hispanic" anything to make it fit the Progressive, MSM narrative.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I agree with you. I was referring as to whether the San Bernardino thing was "workplace violence" or terrorism. I read they were using .223 and not AK-47. You know, the preferred weapon of my enemy that makes a distinct sound when fired?
Are you that dense? you would actually think this is "workplace violence"? the dude and his wife were radicalized Saudi muslims. This is straight up terrorism, anyone thinking something else is as we say on SF "morans"!

[SoonerorLater]

Are you that dense? you would actually think this is "workplace violence"? the dude and his wife were radicalized Saudi muslims. This is straight up terrorism, anyone thinking something else is as we say on SF "morans"!

Wait a minute. I think you are jumping the gun. The White House is still unsure. I think we need to let the authorities try to unravel this perplexing mystery as to the shooters motivations.

"At the White House, President Barack Obama said after meeting with his national security team that it was "possible this was terrorist-related" but that authorities were unsure."

[SoonerorLater]

I agree with you. I was referring as to whether the San Bernardino thing was "workplace violence" or terrorism. I read they were using .223 and not AK-47. You know, the preferred weapon of my enemy that makes a distinct sound when fired?

Spot on. This could just as easily have been caused by a slight at the coffee maker. We don't want to read too much into this.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Spot on. This could just as easily have been caused by a slight at the coffee maker. We don't want to read too much into this.

That or maybe somebody called him a towel head, as Bo Dietl suggested on Hannity last night. I LMFAO. :D

[FaninAma]

Spot on. This could just as easily have been caused by a slight at the coffee maker. We don't want to read too much into this.

I hear that. Just today I got short-changed at the McDonald drive-thru and I had to exert immense effort to control the urge to go all IRA on their butts. Somehow I managed.

[Serenity Now]

I think it's terrorism regardless of their actual motivation. Any idiot that starts dropping people indiscriminately is a "terrorist". However, if they were religiously motivated "terrorists" wouldn't they go out in a blaze of glory NOT at his holiday party after he left for some unknown reason?

He was an American born US citizen? Right? So, Saudi's got nothing to do with it.

I think their working theory is that it's a mixture of workplace violence and religiously motivated terrorism. I'd buy that. Tuned up enough to twist off and figure they might as well twist off at an enemy? Is that moranic?

I wonder where his wife falls on him being greeted by 72 virgins?

[Serenity Now]

I hear that. Just today I got short-changed at the McDonald drive-thru and I had to exert immense effort to control the urge to go all IRA on their butts. Somehow I managed.

Good work!

[Turd_Ferguson]

I think it's terrorism regardless of their actual motivation. Any idiot that starts dropping people indiscriminately is a "terrorist". However, if they were religiously motivated "terrorists" wouldn't they go out in a blaze of glory NOT at his holiday party after he left for some unknown reason?

He was an American born US citizen? Right? So, Saudi's got nothing to do with it.

I think their working theory is that it's a mixture of workplace violence and religiously motivated terrorism. I'd buy that. Tuned up enough to twist off and figure they might as well twist off at an enemy? Is that moranic?

I wonder where his wife falls on him being greeted by 72 virgins?

The local officials didn't call it a "Holiday Party", they called it a Christmas party. Maybe that's what set him off? I don't think you get tuned up, go home and dress in tactical clothing, pack bags full of loaded mags, make up some pipe bombs, then go do the deed...all inside of 15-30 minutes. Reports were saying the house was an IED factory. Who knows what the real truth is after Obama rocket launched his teams out to cover anything that might make him look bad.

Also, I would think he gets all the nanny's and she would get the billy's, so win/win for both of'm.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I hear that. Just today I got short-changed at the McDonald drive-thru and I had to exert immense effort to control the urge to go all IRA on their butts. Somehow I managed.

It's your white privilege that has given you a lifetime of being able to deal with idiots without committing crimes against them.

[SoonerorLater]

I have to admit I was a little concerned but it looks like the investigators are doing a bang-up job. They must have Sherlock @#$%^&* Holmes working this case.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fbi-treats-san-bernardino-attack-as-possible-terrorism-case/ar-AAfYDHC?li=BBnb7Kz

[Tear Down This Wall]

I have to admit I was a little concerned but it looks like the investigators are doing a bang-up job. They must have Sherlock @#$%^&* Holmes working this case.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fbi-treats-san-bernardino-attack-as-possible-terrorism-case/ar-AAfYDHC?li=BBnb7Kz

And, fortunately, they seem to be ignoring Obama. Good move.

On a side note, I don't own any firearms. I live in Texas. I choose not to have one. But, if I did want one - of any kind - I should be able to buy one.

My dad and brother have rifles for hunting. My dad also has handguns. He also has an AR-15. And, you know what? There's no one - no politician or mouthy political talking head - who should be able to say to my dad, a law abiding citizen, you can't have your hunting rifles, or the pistols you shoot at the gun range, or the AR-15 you've collected as a gun hobbyist.

Shut the f*ck up with the taking away Second Amendment rights bit. The Boston Marathon bombers used a pressure cooker to make a bomb. The 9/11 terrorist highjacked planes and flew them into buildings. You cannot stop terrorists from doing what terrorists want to do. Taking the right to own arms from law abiding U.S. citizen does nothing to stop terrorism. To suggest such is sheer, and I'd say willful, ignorance.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Lots of good stories are out there now about how gun violence is down, except only in gun free zones. even the WAPO published the story. I am shocked they did because it sure skews the liberal/progressive mantra... Gun ownership increases and major crime is down - WOW! who would have thought?

[Serenity Now]

And, fortunately, they seem to be ignoring Obama. Good move.

On a side note, I don't own any firearms. I live in Texas. I choose not to have one. But, if I did want one - of any kind - I should be able to buy one.

My dad and brother have rifles for hunting. My dad also has handguns. He also has an AR-15. And, you know what? There's no one - no politician or mouthy political talking head - who should be able to say to my dad, a law abiding citizen, you can't have your hunting rifles, or the pistols you shoot at the gun range, or the AR-15 you've collected as a gun hobbyist.

Shut the f*ck up with the taking away Second Amendment rights bit. The Boston Marathon bombers used a pressure cooker to make a bomb. The 9/11 terrorist highjacked planes and flew them into buildings. You cannot stop terrorists from doing what terrorists want to do. Taking the right to own arms from law abiding U.S. citizen does nothing to stop terrorism. To suggest such is sheer, and I'd say willful, ignorance.

I share your firearms arsenal. I fully support your right now and in the future to own an AR-15. I just think that we need to figure out how to make sure that people who are NOT sane or are on the terrorist watch list, don't have access to firearms. And, make anyone who assists people who aren't supposed to have firearms get them accountable for their actions. Much like making people who hire undocumented workers accountable would do wonders for curbing illegal immigration.

Crap, we almost agree...

[TheHumanAlphabet]

SN, on this we closely agree. My point is just like the "no fly list" how do you get on the "no gun list", who vets it and how do you get off if you are deemed competent and not a threat or if falsely placed on the list. SO much privacy issues to place in front of a Constitutional right. I am not sure of the answer, and will currently work hard to prevent this from happening as rarely does the government give something back and we have had many instances where Constitutional rights have been trampled, i.e. the Patriot Act.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I share your firearms arsenal. I fully support your right now and in the future to own an AR-15. I just think that we need to figure out how to make sure that people who are NOT sane or are on the terrorist watch list, don't have access to firearms. And, make anyone who assists people who aren't supposed to have firearms get them accountable for their actions. Much like making people who hire undocumented workers accountable would do wonders for curbing illegal immigration.

Crap, we almost agree...

Look...there is no way to tell who will go off. No way. But, people kill all the time, every day, with and without guns.

Here's the problem, you can put extra scrutiny on some who need it - and, to me, this is mainly white supremacy groups, inner city gang members, and people making contact with terrorists or terrorist organizations - but, then, you have people crying foul due to the First Amendment.

I personally do not give two sh*ts whether the government bugs my phone, goes through me e-mails, etc. I have nothing to hide. I absolutely think that anyone tied to white supremacy groups, known gang members, and people flirting with terrorist organizations should be wired tapped, have their e-mail scrutinized, have their homes bugged...all of it.

With regard to people with those mindsets, I don't give a f*ck whether the First Amendment is set aside. And, look, I've got a law degree. But, unlike many with legal educations, I managed to keep my common sense. I'm 167% NOT for criminals and potential criminals hiding behind the Constitution as they plan their kills.

It's not 1776, it's 2015. The "Founding Fathers" were rightly pissed about freedom of the press. Well...that's been stretched out waaaaay to far to include freedom of the criminally inclined to plan in private.

Hello, McFly? Constitution written and ratified waaaaaay before invention of telegraph, telephone...computers...cell phones...I mean...is this so hard to figure out? Yes, it is for f*ckheads like the ACLU and the their ilk. I forget the Conservative answer to the ACLU's name. It's just as bad the other way.

The point is, we can't know because the law says we can't. We could, in my estimation pare down these types of incidents if law enforcement were allowed to surveil certain people and groups. No, instead we have pointy-headed lawyers - and many politicians - saying we'd all suffer as Americans if known criminals, those who threaten to commit crimes, and those consorting with terrorists were wire tapped or otherwise put under heavy surveillance.

[Serenity Now]

I forget the Conservative answer to the ACLU's name. I think the NRA and the ACLU are very similar. My liberal friends disagree. So do my conservative friends. I figure it's kind of like how both OSU and OU fans think Traber is a jack *** and favors the other side. They're both right that he's a jack *** but he's pretty down the middle, generally.

Curly, you're slipping. I'm "Up" to -4,700,000. You've got some work to do.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I think the NRA and the ACLU are very similar. My liberal friends disagree. So do my conservative friends. I figure it's kind of like how both OSU and OU fans think Traber is a jack *** and favors the other side. They're both right that he's a jack *** but he's pretty down the middle, generally.

Curly, you're slipping. I'm "Up" to -4,700,000. You've got some work to do.

I'll agree with that. My dad is in the NRA. I don't think anything about it. Although, I'd wager there are many more checks on firearms than there are communication among white supremacists, gangs members, terror flirters.

[Serenity Now]

I'll agree with that. My dad is in the NRA. I don't think anything about it. Although, I'd wager there are many more checks on firearms than there are communication among white supremacists, gangs members, terror flirters.

The NRA used to be an organization that promoted marksmanship. As recently as the 1970's they supported common sense firearms "movements". They changed to where they view ANY effort to limit access is an affront to the 2nd Amendment. An example is their efforts against changes that would keep those on the terrorist watch list from being able to purchase firearms. I don't think all NRA members feel that way. In fact, polling shows that 75% of NRA members support universal background checks. But, the NRA does not. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/01/28/strong-majority-of-americans-nra-members-back-gun-control

[olevetonahill]

Dayum SN yer way off. But Im too busy this weekend to set ya straight.
Step back from yer crack pipe for a few days

[Turd_Ferguson]

The NRA used to be an organization that promoted marksmanship. As recently as the 1970's they supported common sense firearms "movements". They changed to where they view ANY effort to limit access is an affront to the 2nd Amendment. An example is their efforts against changes that would keep those on the terrorist watch list from being able to purchase firearms. I don't think all NRA members feel that way. In fact, polling shows that 75% of NRA members support universal background checks. But, the NRA does not. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/01/28/strong-majority-of-americans-nra-members-back-gun-control

When the poll ask the question that way, I'm sure most will say yes. If you asked the question "should the government be able to start restricting certain people THEY deem unfit, from getting a firearm", I'm sure it's going to be a resounding NO. So, there's the problem. You give the tick turds in washington a rope, the mother****ers think they're a cowboy. Slippery slope and stuff...

[yermom]

I think the NRA and the ACLU are very similar. My liberal friends disagree. So do my conservative friends. I figure it's kind of like how both OSU and OU fans think Traber is a jack *** and favors the other side. They're both right that he's a jack *** but he's pretty down the middle, generally.

Curly, you're slipping. I'm "Up" to -4,700,000. You've got some work to do.

As someone who is on both of their mailing lists, **** them both.

Don't give either of them your address. Ever.

[FaninAma]

Doesn't it make you progressives a bit nervous to start creating watch lists of individuals who have never been convicted or even charged with a crime? The Nazis were very fond of registering and keeping track of people as were the communists under Stalin and Mao.

[Tear Down This Wall]

As someone who is on both of their mailing lists, **** them both.

Don't give either of them your address. Ever.

Any politician as well. If you give a dime, it takes years to get off everyone's list. No body trades/sells lists like politicians.

The best thing about becoming a non-voter has been the end of phone calls from pols and special interest groups. Take maybe two election cycles before you are gone from pretty much every voter list, I discovered. I suggest it to anyone and everyone.