Two plays bothered me

[Jacie]

One was the play on the final touchdown drive when the Baylor player signaled for his teammate to get down, causing the clock to stop for an injury timeout.

He was helped off the field, even taken to a table by the trainers but the announcers weren't having any of it, Herbstreit calling it "bush league" among other things.

I guess the officials have to accept a player on the ground as injured and there is no provision to throw a flag for delay of game?

The other play i question happened at the very end of the third quarter.

Two bears tackling Mayfield out of bounds and one of the tackles was helmet to helmet.

Why was that not a personal foul?

[SoonerMarkVA]

How about the crown of the helmet hit on Mixon, after he was already stopped in the grasp of another defender?

[Pricetag]

Knocked Mixon's mouthpiece out!

[rock on sooner]

How about the crown of the helmet hit on Mixon, after he was already stopped in the grasp of another defender?
Yup, why wasn't that "targeting"? CLEARLY...

[BoulderSooner79]

Yup, why wasn't that "targeting"? CLEARLY...

The rules don't protect RBs in that situation.

[jkjsooner]

The rules don't protect RBs in that situation.

So you can go head to head on a RB but if a fullback makes head to head contact on a block he can be charged with targeting?

[BoulderSooner79]

So you can go head to head on a RB but if a fullback makes head to head contact on a block he can be charged with targeting?

Yes. It all depends on the player being considered defenseless. An RB with the ball is not protected. This applies to QBs that have taken off running too unless they slide. A player being blocked (your FB example) is only considered defenseless if it's a blind side block - for example a peel-back block.

[aurorasooner]

If there ever was a definition of a defenseless player, it would be any ball carrier that is in the grasp of a defender and then gets cracked by a helmet to helmet by another defender who ""launches himself with such force as to knock the ball carriers helmet completely off.

I know the Big 12 probably won't address it as they would rather sweep it under the carpet, but I'd like to know why that play was a zebra no-call for targeting especially with all the so-called emphasis on player safety.

[BoulderSooner79]

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just relaying the rules as I understand them. Whether a player is defenseless is not a judgement call - it is defined by the rules, so the refs have no grounds on that play. They can call unnecessary roughness if they feel a player is speared on the ground or hit after the whistle, but not targeting. And it's not a big 12 issue either - it's one for the rules committee between seasons.

[Okie35]

It was a very physical game some stuff gets called some don't

[SoonerMarkVA]

Yes. It all depends on the player being considered defenseless. An RB with the ball is not protected. This applies to QBs that have taken off running too unless they slide. A player being blocked (your FB example) is only considered defenseless if it's a blind side block - for example a peel-back block.

Not when it's Ripkowski going head on with a KSU defensive end, it's not. Then it's *poof* -- ejected.

[SoonerMarkVA]

It was a very physical game some stuff gets called some don't

This is true, but that hit in particular was really bad. Mixon was already fully engaged with a defender who had stopped his momentum, and the guy absolutely torpedoed his head directly, with the crown of his helmet. If they don't call that, then they shouldn't be calling 9 out of 10 of the calls they do make.

[BoulderSooner79]

By rule, that wasn't a foul - I don't know how else to say it. The refs just have the rules to go by and there is no *targeting* protection for RBs. They do get other protection such as forward progress, face mask, and horse collar. But the bottom line is that if you choose to be an RB, know it is a dangerous profession.

[BoulderSooner79]

Not when it's Ripkowski going head on with a KSU defensive end, it's not. Then it's *poof* -- ejected.

Folks bitch about that call, but the ref interpreted that as a peel back. Refs still make mistakes and it could have been a blown call, but there is a rule backing up what he thought he saw.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Yes. It all depends on the player being considered defenseless. An RB with the ball is not protected. This applies to QBs that have taken off running too unless they slide. A player being blocked (your FB example) is only considered defenseless if it's a blind side block - for example a peel-back block.

You are right and you are wrong. crown of the helmet is a totally separate rule (9-1-3)

Targeting and Making Forcible Contact With the Crown of the
Helmet
ARTICLE 3. No player shall target and make forcible contact against an
opponent with the crown (top) of his helmet. When in question, it is a foul.
(Rule 9-6) (A.R. 9-1-3-I)
Targeting and Making Forcible Contact to Head or Neck Area of
a Defenseless Player
ARTICLE 4. No player shall target and make forcible contact to the head or
neck area of a defenseless opponent with the helmet, forearm, hand, fist, elbow
or shoulder. When in question, it is a foul (Rules 2-27-14 and 9-6). (A.R. 9-1-
4-I-VI)
PENALTY [ARTICLE 3 and ARTICLE 4]—15 yards. For dead-ball
fouls, 15 yards from the succeeding spot. Automatic first down for fouls
by Team B if not in conflict with other rules. For fouls in the first half:
Disqualification for the remainder of the game.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

For further clarification ----

Notes to Articles 9-1-3 and 9-1-4
Note 1: “Targeting” means that a player takes aim at an opponent for purposes
of attacking with forcible contact that goes beyond making a legal tackle or a
legal block or playing the ball. Some indicators of targeting include but are
not limited to:
• Launch—a player leaving his feet to attack an opponent by an upward
and forward thrust of the body to make contact in the head or neck area
• A crouch followed by an upward and forward thrust to attack with
contact at the head or neck area, even though one or both feet are still on
the ground
• Leading with helmet, forearm, fist, hand or elbow to attack with contact
at the head or neck area
• Lowering the head before attacking by initiating contact with the crown
of the helmet

It should have been called targeting, but not targeting a defenseless player

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Also, technically, he was a defenseless player, but I've never seen this interpretation ever called.

Note 2: Defenseless player (Rule 2-27-14):
• A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass.
• A receiver attempting to catch a forward pass or in position to receive a
backward pass, or one who has completed a catch and has not had time
to protect himself or has not clearly become a ball carrier.
• A kicker in the act of or just after kicking a ball, or during the kick or the
return.
• A kick returner attempting to catch or recover a kick, or one who has
completed a catch or recovery and has not had time to protect himself or
has not clearly become a ball carrier..
• A player on the ground.
• A player obviously out of the play.
• A player who receives a blind-side block.
• A ball carrier already in the grasp of an opponent and whose forward
progress has been stopped.
• A quarterback any time after a change of possession

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

2 plays that bothered me -

1. 28 coming back into the game with "back spasms". There is no way that kid passed a concussion protocol, he was knocked completely out and staggering around the field.
2. Matt Dimon - I agree that the call was legit by the rules, but there needs to be an exception when someone is holding your foot in the air and you are trying to protect yourself by getting them to let go.

[tooslow]

Did the Baylor kid that went out with the "fake" injury ever come back on the field? Reports claim he was injured during the kickoff and was trying to play through it. His teammate didn't want him to get burned, so he told him to get down.

[BoulderSooner79]

2 plays that bothered me -

1. 28 coming back into the game with "back spasms". There is no way that kid passed a concussion protocol, he was knocked completely out and staggering around the field.
2. Matt Dimon - I agree that the call was legit by the rules, but there needs to be an exception when someone is holding your foot in the air and you are trying to protect yourself by getting them to let go.

Totally agree on #28. His head snapped abruptly when he hit Flowers in the air. He was so dazed he couldn't walk. I was shocked to see him in the game later.

I wasn't even sure Dimon even kicked the guy as much as kicked *at* the guy. Still dumb to give the ref a reason to toss you. Fortunately, it didn't cost us any yardage and we didn't seem to lack depth on the D-line the rest of the game.

[Mazeppa]

How about the crown of the helmet hit on Mixon, after he was already stopped in the grasp of another defender?

http://i67.tinypic.com/2nghi0p.jpg

[Mazeppa]

It was a very physical game some stuff gets called some don't

Blows to the head were not called.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2nulr39.jpg

[Mazeppa]

http://i64.tinypic.com/op9t0o.jpg

[Mazeppa]

http://i66.tinypic.com/ay5x7b.jpg

[BigTip]

I thought that it was dumb of Baylor to fake the injury. It look to me like Mayfield had been shaken up the previous play. Maybe hurt his arm/hand. I was glad for the extra time for him to collect himself.

[SoonerMarkVA]

Mazeppa and jkm pretty much put the mic drop on this thread. Outstanding, gentlemen!

[BoulderSooner79]

Oakman demonstrated very well the reason the horse collar tackle has been outlawed. It came really close to taking BM out of the game as it twisted him awkwardly and definitely had him hurting for a few plays. But is was a blessing for us because that flag was a huge turning point and BM was able to kick his legs out enough to avoid serious injury.

[SoCalBigRed]

The rules don't protect RBs in that situation.

Yes the rules do.

You have to have your head up. It hasn't anything to do with defenseless etc. Its positioning of the head and helmet. They do not want players making contact with the top of the helmet, or "spearing." I told you this in the game thread to, Boulder. jkm spells it out clearly with the actual rule.

No offense meant, but it was a clear penalty and that guy put his head down, to impact exactly in the manner in which he did. I called that dirty play of theirs on the 2nd series of the game.

[vtsooner21]

Thinking that the NCAA had better review the rule book regarding the "fake injuries" use in slowing down the game. Somewhere it should be written that if a player is hurt & goes down on the field thus stopping play, it should also be written that the player "injured" must sit out for a period of time (Perhaps up to an entire quarter?) so as to assure complete "recovery" time. If there are so many rules lately added to assure a player's safety, this would align itself with that.

[rock on sooner]

Mazeppa and jkm pretty much put the mic drop on this thread. Outstanding, gentlemen!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[jkjsooner]

http://i64.tinypic.com/op9t0o.jpg


I was yelling to my wife that that player didn't get off the field and should have been a penalty.

[jkjsooner]

Thinking that the NCAA had better review the rule book regarding the "fake injuries" use in slowing down the game. Somewhere it should be written that if a player is hurt & goes down on the field thus stopping play, it should also be written that the player "injured" must sit out for a period of time (Perhaps up to an entire quarter?) so as to assure complete "recovery" time. If there are so many rules lately added to assure a player's safety, this would align itself with that.

I've suggested that he must sit out for that series. You can make a safety argument for that was well.

Some will counter that such a rule would encourage injured players to remain on the field. I guess there are always unintended consequences...

[Pride1Mom]

I imagine the film will be sent to the review boards. The schools critique the game and send their reports on the officiating......this is how some rules, like horse collaring comes into effect.

[SoonerBBall]

I've suggested that he must sit out for that series. You can make a safety argument for that was well.

Some will counter that such a rule would encourage injured players to remain on the field. I guess there are always unintended consequences...

I've advocated the same thing. Any time the game is stopped for an injured player that player should not be allowed to return until a change of possession has occurred (halftime counts). If an injured player wants to stay in the game, that only hurts his team in the long run, so I think it would be self-regulating.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I also think that they need an independent concussion review and not leave it to the training staffs of the team.

[hawaii 5-0]

http://i66.tinypic.com/ay5x7b.jpg


How this one was missed bothered me at the time.

5-0

[Mazeppa]

http://i65.tinypic.com/nya4pj.jpg

[Mazeppa]

http://i65.tinypic.com/2akg4ld.jpg

[Mazeppa]

http://i67.tinypic.com/2ewf9cn.jpg

[Mazeppa]

http://i63.tinypic.com/315gxtu.jpg

[Mazeppa]

There's more than 2 plays that bothered me!

[JoeR]

It was very obvious the B12 thought Baylor was their best chance to get into the playoffs and told the refs to make sure they won. If osu wins this week you can be sure we will see the same crap in stoolwater the week after.
The QB throws a wobbly pass while in the grasp and you complete the tackle and they call roughing, give me a break.

[Mazeppa]

Mazeppa and jkm pretty much put the mic drop on this thread. Outstanding, gentlemen!

Thank You, Thank You very much!

[hornswaggled]

You are focused on the wrong thing. The Baylor game is over. TCU is next up. Lets smash the horned frogs the same as a car tire running over a hornytoad. Flatten them into Frisbies. I know they are a near extinct species, but their survival should not be our concern if they show up on Owen Field.

[BoulderSooner79]

It was very obvious the B12 thought Baylor was their best chance to get into the playoffs and told the refs to make sure they won. If osu wins this week you can be sure we will see the same crap in stoolwater the week after.
The QB throws a wobbly pass while in the grasp and you complete the tackle and they call roughing, give me a break.

If your talking about the flag on Evans early in the game, it was a good call. The ref explained it fully too - it wasn't for being late, it was for driving the QB into the turf using his full body weight. That one is not called consistently, but the rule is there. If you are talking about a different play, then nevermind.

[FlatLander]

If your talking about the flag on Evans early in the game, it was a good call. The ref explained it fully too - it wasn't for being late, it was for driving the QB into the turf using his full body weight. That one is not called consistently, but the rule is there. If you are talking about a different play, then nevermind.

There were definitely some strange calls in this game. The Evans play gets a flag, ok, but Mayfield gets clubbed in the head and no flag? But really that is just the way it has always been. Some missed and some called. Used to there just wasn't a boatload / better camera angles for us to look at.

[rock on sooner]

There's more than 2 plays that bothered me!

RILLY? I'd have never guessed....:biggrin:

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

It was very obvious the B12 thought Baylor was their best chance to get into the playoffs and told the refs to make sure they won. If osu wins this week you can be sure we will see the same crap in stoolwater the week after.
The QB throws a wobbly pass while in the grasp and you complete the tackle and they call roughing, give me a break.

You forgot the part where evans picked him up before he planted him AFTER he had released the ball. That is a huge fining in the NFL.

[JoeR]

Does Evans have eyes in the back of his helmet? He doesn't know the ball has been thrown, he's just tackling a ball carrier. Evans doesn't have the same camera angle you have on your tv.

[BoulderSooner79]

Does Evans have eyes in the back of his helmet? He doesn't know the ball has been thrown, he's just tackling a ball carrier. Evans doesn't have the same camera angle you have on your tv.

It wasn't because the hit was late or that the ball was gone. The ref explained it clearly - the foul was for driving the QB into the ground. I.e., not a normal tackle, rather a maneuver intended to injure.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Does Evans have eyes in the back of his helmet? He doesn't know the ball has been thrown, he's just tackling a ball carrier. Evans doesn't have the same camera angle you have on your tv.

As a player, you absolutely know if the ball is gone or not. You are running right at them and you can see them throwing. The rule on Quarterbacks has always been one step and hit. When you take the extra time to pick them up and then plant them into the ground you are going to get a flag. Now, you are also going to get a huge advantage out of doing it as QBs can only take so much punishment before their efficiency goes down (the KState circa 2000 methodology).

[JoeR]

ee
As a player, you absolutely know if the ball is gone or not. You are running right at them and you can see them throwing. The rule on Quarterbacks has always been one step and hit. When you take the extra time to pick them up and then plant them into the ground you are going to get a flag. Now, you are also going to get a huge advantage out of doing it as QBs can only take so much punishment before their efficiency goes down (the KState circa 2000 methodology).

No need to keep beating a dead horse, but I agree with you if the qb throws the pass BEFORE you hit him. Evans was already engaged with the qb BEFORE he threw the ball. He simply finished the tackle. That's the way you are taught to tackle, face mask in the chest, grab the thighs, drive with the legs. I'm sorry the Baylor qb is such a pip-squeak, but maybe he shouldn't be on the field with the big boys.
I'm wondering when the NCAA is just going to go to flag football, full pads of course.

[BoulderSooner79]

ee

No need to keep beating a dead horse, but I agree with you if the qb throws the pass BEFORE you hit him. Evans was already engaged with the qb BEFORE he threw the ball. He simply finished the tackle. That's the way you are taught to tackle, face mask in the chest, grab the thighs, drive with the legs. I'm sorry the Baylor qb is such a pip-squeak, but maybe he shouldn't be on the field with the big boys.
I'm wondering when the NCAA is just going to go to flag football, full pads of course.

That horse seems to still be breathing. I just watched the replay and the foul happened 12:20 of the first quarter. Here is the exact call from the ref:

"Roughing the passer #26 - punishing the quarterback with the weight of his body"

No mention of timing at all - it was for the way he tackled. You can disagree with the rule or bitch about the pussification of football, blah, blah, blah. But I don't see how you can dispute that the play happened exactly as the ref described. So if that is a foul, it was properly called.