Would you support a penny sales tax to support education? [Archive]

badger

10/21/2015, 01:00 PM

OU president David Boren is proposing it and the petition drive has started.

Linky (http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/supporters-file-papers-for-vote-on-sales-tax-increase-for/article_3358ed74-477a-5b3d-a780-6d945a37ea23.html)

Personally, I am torn.

Pros:
- More money for education
- Education needs more money
- Oil revenue declines means state will have huge shortfalls in the coming years
- Education funds still haven't made it back to pre-recession levels
- Allowing voters to decide on taxing themselves, rather than legislators

Cons:
- Like the lottery, may be used as an excuse for the legislature to not fund education fully on its own
- The sales taxes in this state are already high
- Sales taxes are regressive (i.e. hit the poorest the hardest)
- The state should be funding education by itself already
- The state legislators chose to cut income taxes, so now we're going to raise sales taxes at the same time?!

Help me out, SF.com. What side should I take?

FaninAma

10/21/2015, 02:13 PM

dwarthog

10/21/2015, 02:47 PM

I would entertain something limited to PK-12. Definitely not interested in funding someone elses "higher" education.

Boren is seeking to mitigate his out of control cost increases on the backs of Oklahoma taxpayers.

This site has some interesting perspective on how tuition costs have escalated.

http://www.collegecalc.org/colleges/oklahoma/university-of-oklahoma-norman-campus/

In 2000 you could get 4 years of tuition for under 10k.

Today that figure is damn near 80k.

dwarthog

10/21/2015, 02:50 PM

I take it this is for post high school funding? Oklahoma has a long way to go to catch Texas in school funding if we are talking about primary and secondary education. Oklahoma's sales tax may be relatively high v. the national average but we have very low property taxes so it evens out.

I found this breakout of how they see the money getting spent.

http://newsok.com/ou-president-suggests-penny-sales-tax-to-boost-education-funding/article/5449071/?page=2

Boren said the one cent sales tax increase, if approved by voters, would raise $615 million a year, with $378 million going to fund $5,000 yearly raises for teacher salaries.

An additional $50 million would be used for grants for locally controlled reforms like incentive pay. Another $125 million would go to higher education to keep down tuition and fees, while $50 million would go to early childhood programs and $12.5 million would go to the vocation and technology educational system.

REDREX

10/21/2015, 02:51 PM

Public Schools **** away a lot of money-----My kids private school spends much less per student and has far better results

FaninAma

10/21/2015, 03:15 PM

Public Schools **** away a lot of money-----My kids private school spends much less per student and has far better results
I am by no means an apologist for public schools but I think you need to compare apples to apples meaning you need to compare students in public schools with intact families who stay involved with their kids' academics. My 2 oldest went to Byng which is 65% white, 30% Native American, and 5% black. There was never a drug problem. There were very few social cliques. Both of my daughters knocked the ACT out of the park and ended up with great academic scolarships at OU(as did others in their classes). They had classmates who went to Ivy League schools as well as several who attended OU, OSU and other public universities in the state.

The key was that most parents stayed involved and there were few discipline problems among the student body. Those that were discipline problems were shunned by most of their classmates and usually ended up changing schools.

The biggest issue the Byng school system faced was losing their best teachers to out of state schools who paid better. My brother's daughter-in-law just got her teaching degree/certification and makes over $40,000 a year in Frisco, Tx in her first teaching job. Meanwhile my brother's wife who has 25 years of experience and has been named teacher of the year in her school system 4 times makes less than $35,000 at Byng. Oklahoma needs to catch up and keep quality teachers here. Not all of the good students can go to private schools.

The biggest problem with Oklahoma Public education is that they are loathe to consolidate and have way too many duplicated administrative positions. I don't know if this is correct but I have heard that Oklahoma has more school districts than Texas.

Soonerjeepman

10/21/2015, 04:34 PM

Public Schools **** away a lot of money-----My kids private school spends much less per student and has far better results

I agree with a lot of that...BUT it's not even comparable to the type of "client" we (public school) vs private school gets. My daughter had ADD and we thought about sending her to a Catholic HS. After talking to other parents it was a no go, they don't offer ANY help nor have to. Private doesn't have to take low kids of ANY TYPE. On top of that the family structure and parental involvement is 400% better.

I'll give you an example...there is a Public in KC, top 100 in the nation..urban area BUT you have to have the right test score to get in, stay in...the rest of the HS are CHIT...but the one is basically a private hs run by the district.

REDREX

10/21/2015, 05:03 PM

I agree with a lot of that...BUT it's not even comparable to the type of "client" we (public school) vs private school gets. My daughter had ADD and we thought about sending her to a Catholic HS. After talking to other parents it was a no go, they don't offer ANY help nor have to. Private doesn't have to take low kids of ANY TYPE. On top of that the family structure and parental involvement is 400% better.

I'll give you an example...there is a Public in KC, top 100 in the nation..urban area BUT you have to have the right test score to get in, stay in...the rest of the HS are CHIT...but the one is basically a private hs run by the district.---OK----Why do they spend more money per student when the classes may be twice as large as private schools?

SicEmBaylor

10/21/2015, 05:49 PM

Serenity Now

10/21/2015, 06:06 PM

---OK----Why do they spend more money per student when the classes may be twice as large as private schools?

Most private schools pay teachers much lower than public schools.

Serenity Now

10/21/2015, 06:08 PM

I have never and will never vote for a tax increase/school bond, ever. Furthermore, I support completely abolishing public education and fully privatizing. If that day ever comes, I'd like to be the one to offer Soonerjeepman his pink slip.
You're a product of one of the best schools around that has not turned down a bond issue since I've been in these parts over the last 20-30 years. I don't reconcile that.

I understand privatization but think it would only serve to widen the divide between the haves and have nots.

SicEmBaylor

10/21/2015, 06:21 PM

You're a product of one of the best schools around that has not turned down a bond issue since I've been in these parts over the last 20-30 years. I don't reconcile that.

I understand privatization but think it would only serve to widen the divide between the haves and have nots.

I have a good chunk of my former teachers on Facebook -- I grew up under them, of course. Anyway, they often wonder where they went wrong. ;) They knew what I was like as far back as middle school since I had a knack for politicizing absolutely everything. I was fortunate to have gone to such a stellar system with such a great system, but it doesn't change the fact that government is as competent at providing education as they are everything else. The more government has become involved in education, especially the Federal level down, the worse performance gets. Removing government from the business of education is the only way to fix education.

rock on sooner

10/21/2015, 08:10 PM

imo, taking the fed out of education creates 50 (FIFTY) different systems with
no oversight at all. Then you have Mississippi, Louisiana, etc running our kids'
education. If you think things are tough now, just let that happen and our smart
kids will fade away...a few will go where they can grow, but many (most) won't.
That, IMO, is the biggest issue with turning so much back to the states. Some
are smart, forward thinking, caring and motivated but enough care more about
infrastructure or attracting business or maintaining status quo to really damage
the overall education structure.

Now, possibly, there is a middle ground but to unilaterally eliminate federal oversight
(as some Pub candidates espouse) would be catastrophic and irreparably damage
our youth...generations to repair.

Soonerjeepman

10/21/2015, 08:43 PM

I have never and will never vote for a tax increase/school bond, ever. Furthermore, I support completely abolishing public education and fully privatizing. If that day ever comes, I'd like to be the one to offer Soonerjeepman his pink slip.

lol...good luck with that. You're such a tough guy behind the keyboard...on top of that I'll be long gone.

Here is what I teach the kids
#1 you EARN what you get
#2 If you don't like your situation, change yourself for the better
#3 You can do anything you put your mind to realistically
#4 learning is a life long journey
#5 baylor university sucks a$$

You wouldn't last 1 day in some of these classes. It'd be a joke to see you in there.

Soonerjeepman

10/21/2015, 08:48 PM

---OK----Why do they spend more money per student when the classes may be twice as large as private schools?

really? really read what you wrote? First off, your original statement said the private schools get more bang for less buck, basically. Right? I countered with the fact of the type of clientele at the private school vs public. I've got 4th graders that can't add single digit without fingers...you think they'd last a day at a private school? no..and they get to kick them out. We don't.

yes, the classes are larger, means less time per student, on top the TYPE OF STUDENT, which I've already alluded to.

REDREX

10/21/2015, 09:13 PM

really? really read what you wrote? First off, your original statement said the private schools get more bang for less buck, basically. Right? I countered with the fact of the type of clientele at the private school vs public. I've got 4th graders that can't add single digit without fingers...you think they'd last a day at a private school? no..and they get to kick them out. We don't.

yes, the classes are larger, means less time per student, on top the TYPE OF STUDENT, which I've already alluded to.----Why does it cost more per student ?------Smaller classes should mean higher per student cost at private schools------So why does it cost more at public schools when you have twice as many kids in a class?-----I do agree that the parents are a huge part of the problem but so are the schools----My wife taught for 13 years at Jenks ---she won't let her kids go there---

SicEmBaylor

10/21/2015, 09:31 PM

lol...good luck with that. You're such a tough guy behind the keyboard...on top of that I'll be long gone.
I never said I was going to beat you up. I'm 5'4" and 100lbs. I've never acted like a tough guy in my life.

Here is what I teach the kids
#1 you EARN what you get
#2 If you don't like your situation, change yourself for the better
#3 You can do anything you put your mind to realistically
#4 learning is a life long journey
#5 baylor university sucks a$$

You wouldn't last 1 day in some of these classes. It'd be a joke to see you in there.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with any of that, outside of #5. There are some comprehension issues here. You see, I never commented on your ability to teach. I'm not in a classroom with you, so I wouldn't know. I said I'd give you the pink slip; because, I don't believe in public education. If you want to compete for a job in the private sector then I'm all for it.

Serenity is from my hometown, and he knows how good a district it is. I adored almost every teacher I ever had with very few exceptions, and I still have an excellent relationship with all of them. Nonetheless, I'd give them all the pink slip as well. I like them well enough that I'd probably include a private school application with that pink slip while I'm at it.

Soonerjeepman

10/21/2015, 09:48 PM

For both of you...

I agree there are things that need to change in public education. I went to private, my kids went to a very good public school district and I teach in an urban area. I've seen all three.

Sic - So how would privatization work? Kids that can't afford it...can't make the grades? Unfortunately we've lost jobs in the country that you could support a family without post HS education. I'm a realist...not all kids are college material even though my district keeps pushing that crap. There are some that are not even trade material (plumber, electrician, etc...) what to do with those kids?

BTW my kids don't even know the where the hell baylor is...prob not even texas.

RED - AGAIN, and your wife should know...we can't DENY anyone...sped...illegals...etc. Private schools don't need to address any of those problems which adds to cost. Teacher salaries are about 60% of public, I'd bet if private schools had to take the kids we did, there would be some teachers moving on due to salary....I coached at a Catholic HS, we had chit for facilities...but it was an urban school...the Catholic schools out south in the rich part of town are much more equipped than we were. So again, another cost..Is there waste..yup. Just like any other sector. Unfortunately (which I agree) there is not real check and balance. FWIW, I don't belong to the union either. Believe it or not, I'm just as conservative on a lot of issues as you. BUT I take my job seriously and believe where I am and that I'm doing a good thing. The more I can get these kids to believe that it's up to them the better off they'll be.

SicEmBaylor

10/21/2015, 11:11 PM

Sic - So how would privatization work? Kids that can't afford it...can't make the grades? Unfortunately we've lost jobs in the country that you could support a family without post HS education. I'm a realist...not all kids are college material even though my district keeps pushing that crap. There are some that are not even trade material (plumber, electrician, etc...) what to do with those kids?

The free market would step in and fill the void left by public education. Private education would become competitive and tuition rates would be set at whatever the market values the education at. When you eliminate all of the tax revenue that is seized and pumped into a failed institution, parents would have the money they need for tuition. I would support private education savings accounts that are non-taxable as well as very limited (although this is a slippery slope issue) scholarship and subsidized tuition so long as those scholarships/grants come without strings as to where and how they're applied. IOW, I don't want to get into a situation where the government mandates a certain curriculum for private schools in order for a student to get scholarship or grant money to attend.

BTW my kids don't even know the where the hell baylor is...prob not even texas.
I can't help what your kids know or don't know. That's kind of what you're for. Also, Baylor and Texas are capitalized.

REDREX

10/22/2015, 07:02 AM

Most private schools pay teachers much lower than public schools.---Who told you that?

Serenity Now

10/22/2015, 08:27 AM

---Who told you that?

My wife who's been teaching since circa 1987. She was the state teacher of the year in her field twice and fielded offers from some of the private schools. She did not receive an offer that was for more than she was making at the time. I'm sure that some pay more but most pay less and don't waste resources with silly things like benefits. There are some awesome private schools but there are some crappy ones as well.

TheHumanAlphabet

10/22/2015, 08:58 AM

No. No more money for liberal indoctrination...

Turd_Ferguson

10/22/2015, 09:18 AM

No. No more money for liberal indoctrination...

Spek.

TAFBSooner

10/22/2015, 09:18 AM

The free market would step in and fill the void left by public education. Private education would become competitive and tuition rates would be set at whatever the market values the education at. When you eliminate all of the tax revenue that is seized and pumped into a failed institution, parents would have the money they need for tuition.

I'm framing this and putting it in my "In case of being tempted by Libertarianism, break glass" box.

When making statements like this, "Free Market" and any pronouns referring thereto should be capitalized.

Where has this ever worked in humanity's post-tribal history? Failing that, do you have any analysis that supports any of your three statements, other than your belief that "free markets" are the best mechanism for meeting every common need (other than police, defense, and courts, of course <rolleyes>)?

OK your second statement is probably accurate, but that's not a good thing because at a market price, far too many parents would be priced out of that market. Those parents' children would be left even further behind; each generation would get worse, and before long you have virtual if not actual peonage. (As to the incoming comments from the rest of you, yes the current system is trending that way too. However, it makes no sense to jump to something worse just because your current system has problems.)

olevetonahill

10/22/2015, 09:38 AM

In answer to OP Question
HELL NO.

champions77

10/22/2015, 10:08 AM

There have been major decisions made regarding education at both the college and University level as well as in the Primary and Secondary levels that have played a big role in the funding our schools receive today. They are;
1) School Superintendents. Oklahoma has I believe 500 plus school superintendents. Of course I would assume that each has a staff. This number far exceeds most states. For a population of 3.5 million, this is a waste of tax payer money. Add in Administration costs. Check out Norman and see all of the buildings around town devoted to offices for primary/secondary school administrators. I would love to know the percentage of the total annual school budget administration cost comprise. What do these people do all day?

2) With close to 40 colleges, Universities and Jr Colleges all funded in whole or in part by Oklahoma Taxpayers, this equates into quantity education instead of quality education. Iowa has by comparison 19 public and colleges and Universities for a state only about half a million less citizens. No surprise that both the University of Iowa and Iowa State University are both ranked higher academically than both OU and osu.
These colleges in outposts like Alva, or Tishomingo or Goodwell were established when Oklahoma had an agrarian economy at the turn of the Century when it was important that Jed could help with the farm part of the day and then go to College the rest of the day.
With way too many colleges and Universities on the state payroll, and no politician that would ever propose eliminating some of the schools, we end up not funding our Universities like we should. It would destroy some of these communities, so nothing will ever be done.
So we have what we have by poor decisions made over 100 years ago. How can it be fixed?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

10/22/2015, 10:48 AM

I have never and will never vote for a tax increase/school bond, ever. Furthermore, I support completely abolishing public education and fully privatizing. I never approve of any tax increases. The government is MONSTROUSLY way too big as it already is .

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

10/22/2015, 10:48 AM

No. No more money for liberal indoctrination...icing on the "No way" cake.

champions77

10/22/2015, 11:10 AM

I recall Proposition 1017 back in 1990 which was a Billion dollar funding plan for Education. It was going to solve all of our funding concerns for the foreseeable future.

An evaluation was done ten years later and the average test scores......had dropped.

REDREX

10/22/2015, 03:44 PM

My wife who's been teaching since circa 1987. She was the state teacher of the year in her field twice and fielded offers from some of the private schools. She did not receive an offer that was for more than she was making at the time. I'm sure that some pay more but most pay less and don't waste resources with silly things like benefits. There are some awesome private schools but there are some crappy ones as well.----The teachers at my kids school get paid more than public teachers and have excellent benefits----Try and expand your horizons a bit

badger

10/22/2015, 03:50 PM

Thank you all for your feedback :)

Already, there is a lot of money that state legislators are not allowed to touch, but there is a growing concern that with the oil downturn that every state agency is facing huge budget cuts in the coming years.

In recent years, the answer our state legislature has had is to cut expenses when revenue falls. It may be getting to the point that it is time to look for ways to increase revenue instead of just cut expenses.

So... alternate question for the thread: Which STATEWIDE taxes would you vote in favor of to increase education funding, either K-12/higher ed or both?

1- Sales tax
2- Property tax
3- Income tax

Personally, I liked our local Tulsa County proposition (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/education/tulsa-voters-approve-record-setting-school-bond-package/article_310450cd-146c-58f1-bc07-af723480ef0b.html) earlier this year that passed that had everything outlined and you knew the local impact, because that's where we live.

I agree that the government has been very poor stewards of taxpayer money at all levels lately, but given the strings attached to certain proposals, this would have more oversight than just writing the government a blank check.

There is, of course, the concern that the legislature will just cut whatever new revenue this tax is projected to generate if it passes... :(

Serenity Now

10/22/2015, 04:13 PM

----The teachers at my kids school get paid more than public teachers and have excellent benefits----Try and expand your horizons a bit

My kids go to a very highly thought of school and the real estate costs more because of it. I'm good with that. My horizons are expanded as much as they need to be. I'd put private school on an 80/20 type rule. 20% of it is great and superior to that provided in public schools. 80% is, at best, comparable to public with a lot being below that. Maybe I'm wrong but I have real life experiences that have established the perception. Some teachers don't need the benefits and are happy to work in a private environment where they don't have to mess with the unwashed masses that can come with the public schools or the bureaucracy.

If I lived in a city like Tulsa or OKC I might want to live in an area that would see me putting my kids in private schools. I don't.

REDREX

10/22/2015, 05:07 PM

My kids go to a very highly thought of school and the real estate costs more because of it. I'm good with that. My horizons are expanded as much as they need to be. I'd put private school on an 80/20 type rule. 20% of it is great and superior to that provided in public schools. 80% is, at best, comparable to public with a lot being below that. Maybe I'm wrong but I have real life experiences that have established the perception. Some teachers don't need the benefits and are happy to work in a private environment where they don't have to mess with the unwashed masses that can come with the public schools or the bureaucracy.

If I lived in a city like Tulsa or OKC I might want to live in an area that would see me putting my kids in private schools. I don't.---Go look at test scores that compare Private and Public schools ----You are clueless----80/20? you making this up as you go?

Turd_Ferguson

10/22/2015, 05:20 PM

80/20? you making this up as you go?Isn't that what she normally does?

Soonerjeepman

10/22/2015, 05:49 PM

$2 an hour, "baby sitting", *7 hours * 22 kids* 185 days. $57K I'll take that to just baby sit. Thanks.

TAFBSooner

10/23/2015, 09:39 AM

yermom

10/23/2015, 11:12 AM

i'm just glad we had so much extra money for the state that we were able to lower taxes and still be able to fund everything

Serenity Now

10/23/2015, 11:27 AM

---Go look at test scores that compare Private and Public schools ----You are clueless----80/20? you making this up as you go?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle

80/20 is a common ratio. If you'll notice I said it was my perception. I'm not arrogant enough to claim that I'm right. Maybe I am. What I do know is that my wife was the state teacher of the year in a field that the private schools eat up like Perine eats up cornerbacks and the offers that she received were for less than she was making at a rural 3A school. State teacher salaries have increased some since then and I'm sure private schools have as well.

Serenity Now

10/23/2015, 11:58 AM

https://k12.niche.com/rankings/private-high-schools/best-overall/s/oklahoma/

29 schools. 20% would be 6 of them. I'd go as far as to say I have a positive perception of the top 8 of these. I'm not sure of #9. What I KNOW is that #15 is far below what is provided locally. So, I think it would be fair to say that MY PERCEPTION is that the top 8 are superior to general public schools. I'm pretty sure that MSM and Metro are comparable to the local high quality public schools but I could be wrong. I tried to find some comparisons but couldn't. Those comparisons will be similar to taking the whole football team's 40 time and comparing it to the 40 times of the soccer team. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

There are actually 229 private schools in Oklahoma. Holland Hall, Cassidy, etc. are great. They also get kids who's parents are willing to spend significant $ to educate them. There's a strong correlation between that social group and success in testing and school in general. It's like your argument is that the Air Raid/Spread is superior to all offenses. Some teams run it great. Kansas runs the Air Raid/Spread. There are more college teams out there running the spread/Air Raid/Pistol and not doing it well than are doing it well. We just don't pay much attention to them.

Muskogee high school is a rough place with some kids who give 0 F's and parents who give less. But, there are some really good kids that come out of that school and it is MUCH superior to the church school down the road that is #15. Plus, your kid goes to college and already knows what pepper spray smells like and has lived some life. :)

REDREX

10/23/2015, 12:39 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle

80/20 is a common ratio. If you'll notice I said it was my perception. I'm not arrogant enough to claim that I'm right. Maybe I am. What I do know is that my wife was the state teacher of the year in a field that the private schools eat up like Perine eats up cornerbacks and the offers that she received were for less than she was making at a rural 3A school. State teacher salaries have increased some since then and I'm sure private schools have as well.----This is a stupid argument even for you----Private schools do a much better job than Public school----Why do you think the Public education system in this country is so bad?

badger

10/23/2015, 01:11 PM

Why do you think the Public education system in this country is so bad?

The advantage private schools have over public, especially in Oklahoma where there's no-dropout laws, is that they can be selective with which students (and be extension, their families) to admit.

I don't think this is up for dispute. The question should be: If forced to admit every student like public schools are, would private schools still "do a much better job" than public schools?

Private schools also dispel the notion that teachers are chasing higher paychecks by leaving Oklahoma in some sense. I know of at least one former longtime public school teacher that spent her final years teaching at a private school for less money and enjoyed it a lot more --- better administrative support, better family involvement, better behaved kids, you name it.

I wish that our teachers had more support from the public. It's why I'm seriously considering this tax increase, even if I think there's a lot of cons. What better way to show that Oklahoma supports educators and education than by voting more money to them.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

10/23/2015, 02:57 PM

Who would have guessed! haha

soonercoop1

10/24/2015, 09:51 AM

Thats a big no....proven time and time again we keep throwing more money at it and the kids learn less and less...peoples memories are short as we've had several Dem ideas pass through the years to increase funding and it never works...ever

yermom

10/24/2015, 06:45 PM

FaninAma

10/25/2015, 10:02 AM

lol...good luck with that. You're such a tough guy behind the keyboard...on top of that I'll be long gone.

Here is what I teach the kids
#1 you EARN what you get
#2 If you don't like your situation, change yourself for the better
#3 You can do anything you put your mind to realistically
#4 learning is a life long journey
#5 baylor university sucks a$$

You wouldn't last 1 day in some of these classes. It'd be a joke to see you in there.
Don't let Sicem get under your skin. He has led a very sheltered life and has a hard time seeing anything from a different perspective. 90% of his opinions are sound. In the other 10% he comes off sounding like Marie Antoinette.

FaninAma

10/25/2015, 10:05 AM

The advantage private schools have over public, especially in Oklahoma where there's no-dropout laws, is that they can be selective with which students (and be extension, their families) to admit.

I don't think this is up for dispute. The question should be: If forced to admit every student like public schools are, would private schools still "do a much better job" than public schools?

Private schools also dispel the notion that teachers are chasing higher paychecks by leaving Oklahoma in some sense. I know of at least one former longtime public school teacher that spent her final years teaching at a private school for less money and enjoyed it a lot more --- better administrative support, better family involvement, better behaved kids, you name it.

I wish that our teachers had more support from the public. It's why I'm seriously considering this tax increase, even if I think there's a lot of cons. What better way to show that Oklahoma supports educators and education than by voting more money to them.
You are exactly right. I would prefer vouchers and a law that stated private schools can turn no student away that lives in their district but until then I will support the tax increase if I can be assured it goes to teachers and not administrators or the bureacracy.

yermom

10/25/2015, 11:01 AM

So why a regressive tax that affects the poor the most?

Curly Bill

10/25/2015, 11:23 AM

So why a regressive tax that affects the poor the most?

Because we like creating more and more victims so you won't feel so alone.

badger

10/26/2015, 02:48 PM

So why a regressive tax that affects the poor the most?

This is one of the biggest reasons I likely won't vote for it. The only reason I'm giving this a chance is because I know that our schools need more help.

Of note, Gov. Fallin told state agencies to expect 10 percent less funding next year (http://newsok.com/governor-tells-oklahoma-agencies-to-prepare-for-10-percent-cuts/article/5456081). I'm sure that education will not be completely shielded from cuts, but it would not surprise me if the admin makes the ed cuts less painful, to their credit.

Since I'm 99 percent NO at this point, here's what would have to happen for me to vote yes:
1- An end to the statewide testing. This not only diverts millions in education funding, but also diverts instruction time away from actual learning --- both for taking the tests and learning how to take the tests.
2- A statewide effort to consolidate school districts. Enough with the arguments that rural superintendents are also athletic directors and principals and other roles filled by several administrators at bigger schools -- you have dozens/hundreds of students as opposed to thousands/tens of thousands!
3- A pledge to not cut education funding from the previous year if a state education tax passes and is in effect. The legislature does this annually with over projection of lottery funds to undercut education funding.
4- A pledge to not divert the state education tax to other areas. Yes our roads and bridges suck, so fund them separately!

I think all four are as likely as them repealing the state income tax at this point -- it could happen, especially in a year where agencies are facing even more cuts -- but unlikely.

I also doubt that Oklahoma voters are going to vote to tax themselves even more when the state has been such poor stewards of taxpayer money. :(

Serenity Now

10/26/2015, 02:56 PM

This is one of the biggest reasons I likely won't vote for it. The only reason I'm giving this a chance is because I know that our schools need more help.

Of note, Gov. Fallin told state agencies to expect 10 percent less funding next year (http://newsok.com/governor-tells-oklahoma-agencies-to-prepare-for-10-percent-cuts/article/5456081). I'm sure that education will not be completely shielded from cuts, but it would not surprise me if the admin makes the ed cuts less painful, to their credit.

Since I'm 99 percent NO at this point, here's what would have to happen for me to vote yes:
1- An end to the statewide testing. This not only diverts millions in education funding, but also diverts instruction time away from actual learning --- both for taking the tests and learning how to take the tests.
2- A statewide effort to consolidate school districts. Enough with the arguments that rural superintendents are also athletic directors and principals and other roles filled by several administrators at bigger schools -- you have dozens/hundreds of students as opposed to thousands/tens of thousands!
3- A pledge to not cut education funding from the previous year if a state education tax passes and is in effect. The legislature does this annually with over projection of lottery funds to undercut education funding.
4- A pledge to not divert the state education tax to other areas. Yes our roads and bridges suck, so fund them separately!

I think all four are as likely as them repealing the state income tax at this point -- it could happen, especially in a year where agencies are facing even more cuts -- but unlikely.

I also doubt that Oklahoma voters are going to vote to tax themselves even more when the state has been such poor stewards of taxpayer money. :(

I am friendly with our local Superintendent. He's a good Libertarian, I think. He tells me that schools have consistently received less and less funding form the various sources. Last year was the first year that they didn't receive an allocated amount for textbooks that they'd already received. That, combined with unfunded mandates have been headaches to the schools.

okie52

10/26/2015, 03:06 PM

So why a regressive tax that affects the poor the most?

Hopefully it will work better than the regressive lottery tax that was to end all public education needs.

badger

10/26/2015, 03:58 PM

That, combined with unfunded mandates have been headaches to the schools.

A state legislator tried to suggest last year that the schools didn't need more money because they had millions in the bank. This was in reference to the funds schools use to make it through the final few months of their fiscal year before the next round of funding arrives.

I was too young to vote for/against the lottery, but now that cat's outta the bag and not getting shut down so not really worth complaining about. It serves as a good lesson that new money created for things already funded by government often leads to government cutting their obligation to fund things fully. :(

FaninAma

10/26/2015, 04:02 PM

I am friendly with our local Superintendent. He's a good Libertarian, I think. He tells me that schools have consistently received less and less funding form the various sources. Last year was the first year that they didn't receive an allocated amount for textbooks that they'd already received. That, combined with unfunded mandates have been headaches to the schools.

GWB's "No Child Left Behind" has been a huge disaster....especially to smaller and more rural schools. Federal meddling in local schools turns out as well as any other federal attemtp to control an entire sector of public life.....****ty.

GWB was such an *** and an incompetent POS. I dislike him slightly less than Obama...but not by much.

FaninAma

10/26/2015, 04:05 PM

A state legislator tried to suggest last year that the schools didn't need more money because they had millions in the bank. This was in reference to the funds schools use to make it through the final few months of their fiscal year before the next round of funding arrives.

I was too young to vote for/against the lottery, but now that cat's outta the bag and not getting shut down so not really worth complaining about. It serves as a good lesson that new money created for things already funded by government often leads to government cutting their obligation to fund things fully. :(

So, where are you going to send Baby Badger when the time comes to pick a school? And how do you propose that new resources to public schools be funded? Like I said, there has to be safeguards that the new funds will be spent on teachers and classroom resources not the gloated administrative staffs in this state.

Serenity Now

10/26/2015, 04:13 PM

GWB's "No Child Left Behind" has been a huge disaster....especially to smaller and more rural schools. Federal meddling in local schools turns out as well as any other federal attemtp to control an entire sector of public life.....****ty.

GWB was such an *** and an incompetent POS. I dislike him slightly less than Obama...but not by much.

I liked W. and respected him as an American. I just thought he wasn't prepared to do that job. I also don't agree with A. his methodology and B. his abdicating to Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al. He was dealt a poor hand with 9/11 happening when it did. He gets a little blame but there's plenty of blame to spread around for that.

FaninAma

10/26/2015, 04:30 PM

I liked W. and respected him as an American. I just thought he wasn't prepared to do that job. I also don't agree with A. his methodology and B. his abdicating to Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al. He was dealt a poor hand with 9/11 happening when it did. He gets a little blame but there's plenty of blame to spread around for that.

I like and repect a lot of people who would have made bad Presidents. He is the one who ran for the office. He is the one who allowed himself to be manipulated by the neo-cons in the ME and TeDemon Kennedy on the No Child Left Behind legislation. That makes him an incompetent @$$. Plus he ran as a conservative and governed like a big spending liberal. That makes him a liar. His only saving grace was appointing Samuel Alito to the SCOTUS.

BTW, I am not surprised that liberals might start having some fondness for ol' George......he had very few truly conservative principles that he believed in. I am surprised that the liberals still have such negative opinions about Richard Milhouse Nixon. That guy was a true progressive if there ever was one.

badger

10/26/2015, 04:35 PM

So, where are you going to send Baby Badger when the time comes to pick a school?
There are good TPS schools so we will check into those first. If we can't get a good public school I'm not opposed to sending her to a private one. We have time to see the direction that Oklahoma takes its schools first, fortunately.

GWB's "No Child Left Behind" has been a huge disaster
I think history will remember it as a good idea that wasn't properly funded and won't have a lasting legacy. Perhaps Obamacare will be thought of similarly someday.

Serenity Now

10/26/2015, 04:52 PM

I like and repect a lot of people who would have made bad Presidents. He is the one who ran for the office. He is the one who allowed himself to be manipulated by the neo-cons in the ME and TeDemon Kennedy on the No Child Left Behind legislation. That makes him an incompetent @$$. Plus he ran as a conservative and governed like a big spending liberal. That makes him a liar. His only saving grace was appointing Samuel Alito to the SCOTUS.

BTW, I am not surprised that liberals might start having some fondness for ol' George......he had very few truly conservative principles that he believed in. I am surprised that the liberals still have such negative opinions about Richard Milhouse Nixon. That guy was a true progressive if there ever was one.

B. Hussein Obama was the first D that I voted for President. I've been telling people to be nice to W. for a decade, even while I disagreed with him. The more I learn about Milhouse, the more I appreciate him. He opened things up to China, he was a great president for Indian Country. He made good hand signals.

yermom

10/26/2015, 07:09 PM

champions77

10/26/2015, 07:22 PM

The disintegration Of the family, the labor Unions who could care less about educating and are perfectly content in keeping lousy teachers in the classroom, Feds involving themselves in local schools and the meteoric rise in school Administration costs have Put us where we are today. Much more so than not enough funding. The Labor Unions contribute to Democrat politicians re-election campaigns so the status quo continues.
Poor kids, don't have a chance.,

okie52

10/26/2015, 07:52 PM

Opening to China was a good thing?

I think most of the problem with education is not leaving kids behind.

You get what you put in. Going the best school with the best teachers and resources only gets you so far

It was a bad thing with China? I'm trying to understand how you ignore the most populated country in the world.

Serenity Now

10/26/2015, 09:07 PM

Opening to China was a good thing?

I think most of the problem with education is not leaving kids behind.

You get what you put in. Going the best school with the best teachers and resources only gets you so far
Given that we went from the Korean War to what we have now, I think so.

yermom

10/27/2015, 07:42 AM

they practically own us now though

TAFBSooner

10/27/2015, 09:08 AM

they practically own us now though

If you owe the bank $10,000, you have a problem.

If you owe the bank $10,000,000, the bank has a problem.

This relationship scales.

TAFBSooner

10/27/2015, 09:19 AM

I like and repect a lot of people who would have made bad Presidents. He is the one who ran for the office. He is the one who allowed himself to be manipulated by the neo-cons in the ME and TeDemon Kennedy on the No Child Left Behind legislation. That makes him an incompetent @$$. Plus he ran as a conservative and governed like a big spending liberal. That makes him a liar. His only saving grace was appointing Samuel Alito to the SCOTUS.

BTW, I am not surprised that liberals might start having some fondness for ol' George......he had very few truly conservative principles that he believed in. I am surprised that the liberals still have such negative opinions about Richard Milhouse Nixon. That guy was a true progressive if there ever was one.

This liberal has NO fondness for George. (The only positive thing about him is that he attempted to restart funding to resume manned exploration of the Moon and Mars. It's a negative on Obama that he stopped it.)

I can see that some conservatives such as yourself don't regard George as a conservative. So-called neocons are not conservative. Pols that blow up the budget by increasing spending and reducing taxes are not conservative. I'll wring my hands for you :) -- but I'm not so happy with the current Dem president or the most likely next one.

yermom

10/27/2015, 10:15 PM

Except now we rely on their cheap crap

champions77

10/28/2015, 07:21 AM

This liberal has NO fondness for George. (The only positive thing about him is that he attempted to restart funding to resume manned exploration of the Moon and Mars. It's a negative on Obama that he stopped it.)

I can see that some conservatives such as yourself don't regard George as a conservative. So-called neocons are not conservative. Pols that blow up the budget by increasing spending and reducing taxes are not conservative. I'll wring my hands for you :) -- but I'm not so happy with the current Dem president or the most likely next one.

Not happy but your vote next November will be exactly the same as the ones that ARE happy with Hillary. Right?

badger

10/28/2015, 10:35 AM

champions77

10/28/2015, 11:04 AM

Oklahoma Watch reported that if this sales tax passes, Oklahoma will lead the nation (http://oklahomawatch.org/2015/10/26/penny-hike-would-make-oklahoma-king-in-sales-taxes/) in state/local sales taxes :(

OKC and Tulsa will trail only Seattle and Chicago among major cities' sales taxes. Some cities already have dime or higher sales taxes in-state.

I think I am now 99.9 percent against this tax instead of just 99. There has got to be a better way to fund this state's education.

You have to start with Administration costs. Those costs have increased at a much higher rate than the population. The Teacher's in this State need to protest that before demanding additional pay in the form of tax increases. People are sick and tired of paying more and more, and seeing little to no improvement in the product they are putting out.

A higher degree of scrutiny has to be placed on Administration costs than have been in the past. So far, we have seen no attempt in this area. This has to change. Norman claims only 4% for Administration, but there are several buildings around Norman only for Administrators. Doesn't compute.
600 school Districts is insane.

badger

10/28/2015, 01:05 PM

Since you brought up the admin thing, its important to note that this is also a problem in higher education as well. I was annoyed when the SAE protests led OU to hire a vice president for diversity --- not because I'm against diversity, but because OU was hiring yet another vice president.

And what about the actual learning part of the university, the professor-student interaction part? Higher education is starting to rely more and more on so-called "adjunct professors," who are pay-per-class, do not receive benefits, are not tenure-track, generally do not have offices (or have offices jointly with all the other department's adjuncts), and have very little job security... and low pay to go with it. However, they also tend to have advanced degrees (masters or doctorates).

In addition to bloated administrations with less focus on teaching, universities seem to be more focused on lazy rivers, resort-style "dorms" with laundry service and catering, and shiny new buildings as opposed to teaching the next generation's workforce. Old farts, I hope you're not counting on us keeping your social security fully funded :P

TAFBSooner

10/28/2015, 02:07 PM

TAFBSooner

10/28/2015, 02:15 PM

Not happy but your vote next November will be exactly the same as the ones that ARE happy with Hillary. Right?

Don't like theocracy, so no Carson.
Don't like fascism, so no Trump.
Rand Paul isn't getting the nomination. Sorry, SicEm.

If any of the candidates wants to put their life out of their own hands* and call out the Deep State, I would vote for them if they were still alive on Election Day. Other than that remote possibility, I will be the Democratic clone of Clone.

*The old cliché has it wrong. Every action that is described by it reduces the person's ability to protect and preserve their life.

champions77

10/28/2015, 02:48 PM

Don't like theocracy, so no Carson.
Don't like fascism, so no Trump.
Rand Paul isn't getting the nomination. Sorry, SicEm.

If any of the candidates wants to put their life out of their own hands* and call out the Deep State, I would vote for them if they were still alive on Election Day. Other than that remote possibility, I will be the Democratic clone of Clone.

*The old cliché has it wrong. Every action that is described by it reduces the person's ability to protect and preserve their life.

Theocracy? Because Carson said that he couldn't support a Muslim that believed in Sharia Law because it was not compatible with the US Constitution? If we don't do something to combat Islam, you'll find out Sir what a theocracy really is. Do a little research in Europe and find out what is happening over there.

I will tell something else about Ben Carson, he damn sure won't stand up there and lie through his teeth to get HIS legislation passed like BHO, and Hillary will. We should all be attracted to that. Oh but I forgot, honesty and trustworthiness is not important for a President. I don't know how many more lying sorry sacks like BHO or Hillary we have to have to screw this country up even more before we wake the hell up.

Fascism? Then you can't vote for Hillary either. She is a big a neo-con as any running.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

10/28/2015, 06:46 PM

Fascism? Then you can't vote for Hillary either. She is a big a neo-con as any running.To you, is fascism a defining characteristic of a neo-con? (I'm unsure how anyone can call Hillry any kind of a conservative)

I thought the identifier for a neo-con was that he or she would willingly deploy troops or use other weapons internationally.

champions77

10/28/2015, 09:50 PM

To you, is fascism a defining characteristic of a neo-con? (I'm unsure how anyone can call Hillry any kind of a conservative)

I thought the identifier for a neo-con was that he or she would willingly deploy troops or use other weapons internationally.

She is a neo-con with respect to her willingness to involve the U.S. Military. But no, she is no conservative. She is closer to being a communist than she is a true conservative.

olevetonahill

10/28/2015, 11:37 PM

A simple Penny to the Government sounds BENIGN, Yet it leads to MORE Gubment!
NO to any TAX increase , Done deal!~

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

10/29/2015, 12:38 AM

A simple Penny to the Government sounds BENIGN, Yet it leads to MORE Gubment!
NO to any TAX increase , Done deal!~Hard to believe anyone votes for raising taxes of any kind, ever.

SoonerBBall

10/29/2015, 09:00 AM

Teaching the next generations' citizenry, person-from-Wisconsin, citizenry. But your point is well taken.

The Oklahoman, of all places, pointed out Sunday that Oklahoma's revenue from income tax has been cut by $900 million over the last ten years. (Not) coincidentally, we are expecting a budget gap of $1 billion next fiscal year. Since income tax hits the higher earners harder, and sales tax hits the working and middle classes harder, we are redistributing wealth upwards.

There are better ways to tax the wealthy than increasing income taxes which they will inevitably do their damnedest to dodge.

yermom

10/29/2015, 09:20 AM

such as?

TAFBSooner

10/29/2015, 01:15 PM

To you, is fascism a defining characteristic of a neo-con? (I'm unsure how anyone can call Hillry any kind of a conservative)

Fascists favor state authority over everything else, they are non-democratic, and they include nativism as part of the justification for their rule. That fits Donald to a T.

Hillary doesn't have the nativism part. She's non-democratic as demonstrated by the her belief she's somehow entitled to the presidency.

I thought the identifier for a neo-con was that he or she would willingly deploy troops or use other weapons internationally.

No, it's that they actively and eagerly work towards deploying US military power anywhere in the world, regardless of any real threat to the US, and making up any justifications they need to do so. I tended to think of them as enablers of Israeli expansion, but they are hot and bothered over Ukraine as well. Hillary was an enabler of these people in the run-up to the Iraq invasion.

TheHumanAlphabet

10/29/2015, 01:20 PM

All these muslim do-gooders and apologists will eventually have their religion declared Islam...

champions77

10/29/2015, 01:58 PM

All these muslim do-gooders and apologists will eventually have their religion declared Islam...

They seem much more "tolerant" of Muslims than they do Christians. They will go stir crazy if a 5th grader takes a Bible to his classroom, but then provide "Foot Wash" basins for Muslims in Airports and other public places.

The Hollywood left is especially apologetic of Muslims, all the while Muslims are cutting off heads in the Middle East because some dared to be Christians.

yermom

10/29/2015, 02:16 PM

did i miss where there was a problem with someone taking a Bible to school?

TheHumanAlphabet

10/29/2015, 02:31 PM

This may be in reference to the Katy ISD (Houston) school kid that claims the Teacher told her to deny God. This has become a he said/she said type of issue. Don't know if there was another case/incident.

SicEmBaylor

10/29/2015, 02:40 PM

did i miss where there was a problem with someone taking a Bible to school?

Christians have a bunker mentality as if the entire world is out to get them. For many evangelicals, a lack of school sponsored Christian prayer and bible study in public schools is a form of discrimination and persecution of their beliefs. That's what makes evangelical candidates like Carson and Santorum so f'n scary and bat**** crazy.

badger

10/29/2015, 03:45 PM

Teaching the next generations' citizenry, person-from-Wisconsin, citizenry. But your point is well taken

Heh heh heh Scott Walker couldn't change the UW mission statement to workforce, so I guess I can't drop that word here :D

There are better ways to tax the wealthy than increasing income taxes which they will inevitably do their damnedest to dodge.

We all dodge taxes one way or another, whether it be by underreporting income or buying things online, but not sending the sales tax it to the Oklahoma Tax Commission. Are we doing it out of greed, or are we doing it because we know the state government will just waste it on another unconstitutional law's ACLU legal fees?

Anyways, before this discussion turns completely into yet another presidential election debate, thank you all for your insight.

champions77

10/29/2015, 03:54 PM

Christians have a bunker mentality as if the entire world is out to get them. For many evangelicals, a lack of school sponsored Christian prayer and bible study in public schools is a form of discrimination and persecution of their beliefs. That's what makes evangelical candidates like Carson and Santorum so f'n scary and bat**** crazy.

Must really bother you then to see the President sworn in with his hand on the Bible, or that the Senate has had a Protestant Chaplin around for over 230 years. Allow me to refer you to the First Amendment, more specifically the part that states "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". I don't see where it was the Framer's intentions to limit that to only "non governmental property". With the steady decline in morality in this country, consistent with the diminishment of our Christian principles, I think we could use a lot more "religion" around here. I'm sure your Baylor brethren would be a tad disappointed in your disdain for evangelicals.
And I thought all along you were a Constitutionalist. Silly me.

SicEmBaylor

10/29/2015, 06:07 PM

Must really bother you then to see the President sworn in with his hand on the Bible, or that the Senate has had a Protestant Chaplin around for over 230 years.
It doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I support both. The President can be sworn in on whatever document he or she wishes. Typically, it's the Bible but not always -- that's a personal choice for the President to make. I never said I didn't believe in God or acknowledging God; it's important for government to acknowledge a power greater than itself. More than that, there's a Christian *tradition* in this country that is both important and worth preserving.

Allow me to refer you to the First Amendment, more specifically the part that states "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". I don't see where it was the Framer's intentions to limit that to only "non governmental property".
I support the right of individuals, on their own accord, to pray or read the Bible while at school or any other government building which is perfectly consistent with the 1st Amendment. What I don't support is state-sponsored or directed prayer/Bible study, etc.

With the steady decline in morality in this country, consistent with the diminishment of our Christian principles, I think we could use a lot more "religion" around here.
Christianity doesn't have exclusive claim to moralitiy. We do need a lot more morality whether that comes from Christianity or not. As it is, I agree that Christianity provides the best moral framework (in very general terms) for humanity. There are others, certainly, but Christianity is the best.

I'm sure your Baylor brethren would be a tad disappointed in your disdain for evangelicals.
And I thought all along you were a Constitutionalist. Silly me.
I was never part of the seminary. And, in any case, you'd be surprised.

champions77

10/29/2015, 06:56 PM

It doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I support both. The President can be sworn in on whatever document he or she wishes. Typically, it's the Bible but not always -- that's a personal choice for the President to make. I never said I didn't believe in God or acknowledging God; it's important for government to acknowledge a power greater than itself. More than that, there's a Christian *tradition* in this country that is both important and worth preserving.

I support the right of individuals, on their own accord, to pray or read the Bible while at school or any other government building which is perfectly consistent with the 1st Amendment. What I don't support is state-sponsored or directed prayer/Bible study, etc.

Christianity doesn't have exclusive claim to moralitiy. We do need a lot more morality whether that comes from Christianity or not. As it is, I agree that Christianity provides the best moral framework (in very general terms) for humanity. There are others, certainly, but Christianity is the best.

I was never part of the seminary. And, in any case, you'd be surprised.

You feel that Carson would be scary because he is a devote Christian? I know he wouldn't be a liar, and I can guarantee you he would not circumvent the Constitution like what we've seen with BHO. He would be an excellent role model and would call out behavior that BHO has embraced and all of the divisiveness that we've seen the last 7 years. He would be a God send after the train wreck of the Dems.

TAFBSooner

10/29/2015, 09:42 PM

They seem much more "tolerant" of Muslims than they do Christians. They will go stir crazy if a 5th grader takes a Bible to his classroom, but then provide "Foot Wash" basins for Muslims in Airports and other public places.

The Hollywood left is especially apologetic of Muslims, all the while Muslims are cutting off heads in the Middle East because some dared to be Christians.

Was "American Sniper" pro-Muslim?

champions77

10/30/2015, 09:03 AM

Was "American Sniper" pro-Muslim?

Directed by Clint Eastwood. Is he a Liberal?

American Sniper not shown on some of the college campuses. Some more of that "tolerance" the academicians pat themselves on the back about.

FaninAma

10/30/2015, 09:40 AM

Christians have a bunker mentality as if the entire world is out to get them. For many evangelicals, a lack of school sponsored Christian prayer and bible study in public schools is a form of discrimination and persecution of their beliefs. That's what makes evangelical candidates like Carson and Santorum so f'n scary and bat**** crazy.

Bat**** crazy like most of the Founding Fathers? Yeah, I know...significant numbers of the FFs were Deists like yourself but the majority were, gasp, Chrisitians.
http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

Can you no longer express an opinion without engaging in useless name calling? It really doesn't do much to lend credibility to your point of view. Exactly what purpose does it serve for you to spew out crap that makes your posts hard to differentiate from Sooner8's posts? You know, he liked to use the term "bat**** crazy" a lot, too.

SoonerProphet

10/30/2015, 11:51 AM

Dudes a creationist and imo, that is bat **** crazy. And get the fu*ck off your indignant high horse. You are surely one black pot calling out fellow kettles.

Tear Down This Wall

10/30/2015, 12:27 PM

FaninAma

10/30/2015, 12:52 PM

Dudes a creationist and imo, that is bat **** crazy. And get the fu*ck off your indignant high horse. You are surely one black pot calling out fellow kettles.

Hey, if you want to call me bat **** crazy then go ahead. When you generalize about a group of people that live in our communities and use derogatory names to label them then you cross over into bigot territory.

I have criticized the muslim religion basically because it is the belief system that is enabling so much evil to be committed in its name. iI would probably have done the same with Chrisitanity before martin luther the Reformation. But holy crap. Muslims hate everybody....other religions, gays, differnt sects of their religion. And the hate leads them to kill those they hate. I find it beyond idiotic to denigrate a religion whose members are 99.999% peaceful and actually do a lot of good work(i.e. Christianity).

SoonerProphet

10/30/2015, 01:02 PM

I expect weak crap like this from you. Why don't you lay out your belief system so I can call you names over it and ridicule it. It is a weak line of argument and makes you look ignorant. If you want to debate beliefs then do it like an adult. Are you muslim? Atheist?

Me thinks thoust protest too much. Don't be a whiny bitch about name calling then turn around and act like a raving hypocrite.

SicEmBaylor

10/30/2015, 01:03 PM

Bat**** crazy like most of the Founding Fathers? Yeah, I know...significant numbers of the FFs were Deists like yourself but the majority were, gasp, Chrisitians.
http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

Can you no longer express an opinion without engaging in useless name calling? It really doesn't do much to lend credibility to your point of view. Exactly what purpose does it serve for you to spew out crap that makes your posts hard to differentiate from Sooner8's posts? You know, he liked to use the term "bat**** crazy" a lot, too.

I was speaking of evangelicals not Christians in general. In any case, I have a no tolerance-policy for those who wish to substitute American liberty for ecclesiastical law. The difference between the Founding Fathers, as Christians, and modern day Christians is stark and telling. Many of the Founding Fathers were Christians, perhaps even a plurality, but they created a government based on Enlightenment ideals and principles -- a government whereby the individual would not be subject to the specific religious doctrine of an established church or religion. It's undeniable that candidates like Santorum, Huckabee, and Carson wish to substitute some degree of American liberty for their view of Biblical law.

I consider that bat**** crazy.

FaninAma

10/30/2015, 01:04 PM

Me thinks thoust protest too much. Don't be a whiny bitch about name calling then turn around and act like a raving hypocrite.
So, are you going to reply to any of my questions or just spew invectives? Get back to me when you decide to quit acting like a 7th grade moron.

SoonerProphet

10/30/2015, 01:05 PM

Nice edit.

Love those facts like all Muslims and 99.99%. You seem pretty well versed in weak sh1t.

FaninAma

10/30/2015, 01:05 PM

I was speaking of evangelicals not Christians in general. In any case, I have a no tolerance-policy for those who wish to substitute American liberty for ecclesiastical law. The difference between the Founding Fathers, as Christians, and modern day Christians is stark and telling. Many of the Founding Fathers were Christians, perhaps even a plurality, but they created a government based on Enlightenment ideals and principles -- a government whereby the individual would not be subject to the specific religious doctrine of an established church or religion. It's undeniable that candidates like Santorum, Huckabee, and Carson wish to substitute some degree of American liberty for their view of Biblical law.

I consider that bat**** crazy.

Differentiate evangelical Christians from what you consider Christians who are tolerable in your opinion.

SoonerProphet

10/30/2015, 01:06 PM

So, are you going to reply to any of my questions or just spew invectives? Get back to me when you decide to quit acting like a 7th grade moron.

Need a box of Kleenex you hypocrite.

SicEmBaylor

10/30/2015, 01:07 PM

Differentiate evangelical Christians from what you consider Christians who are tolerable in your opinion.

Surely you don't need me to define what evangelism means.

FaninAma

10/30/2015, 01:07 PM

Nice edit.

Love those facts like all Muslims and 99.99%. You seem pretty well versed in weak sh1t.

So what are you? Lets discuss your belief system for a while. Do you care to share what iit is?

Something sure set you off. What was it? My defense of evangelical Christians? Quit blowing smoke and deflecting.

I edited because the original post came off sounding petulant and petty like all of your posts in this thread.

SoonerProphet

10/30/2015, 01:09 PM

What set me off was you gettin sand in your vagina over name calling. Like you are above such board shenanigans.

FaninAma

10/30/2015, 01:09 PM

Surely you don't need me to define what evangelism means.
I know what my definition is but what is yours and why does your impression of them cause you to label all of them bat **** crazy?

List the denominations you don't consider evangelical.

FaninAma

10/30/2015, 01:20 PM

What set me off was you gettin sand in your vagina over name calling. Like you are above such board shenanigans.

If you can't differentiate between calling somebody a name on the board and labeling an entire religion as bat **** crazy then you are indeed a moron. But if you think sicem needs help in his arguments then by all means step in and help the little guy. I am sure he appreciates your assistance.

Not going to share your belief system? Are you ashamed of it?

SoonerProphet

10/30/2015, 01:26 PM

If you can't differentiate between calling somebody a name on the board and labeling an entire religion as bat crazy then you are indeed a moron. But if you think sicem needs help in his arguments then by all means step in and help the little guy. I am sure he appreciates your assistance.

Not goinf to share your belief system? Are you ashamed of it?

My criticism of your blatant hypocrisy has nothing to do with my belief system. Sic Em opinions on Ralp Reed, CHristian Coaltion, etc. have been well documented on this board. If you are unable to recognize your own hypocrisy and blanket condemnation of certain groups and get all pissy over others, then you might be a thin skinned pansy.

FaninAma

10/30/2015, 01:27 PM

My criticism of your blatant hypocrisy has nothing to do with my belief system. Sic Em opinions on Ralp Reed, CHristian Coaltion, etc. have been well documented on this board. If you are unable to recognize your own hypocrisy and blanket condemnation of certain groups and get all pissy over others, then you might be a thin skinned pansy.

I really don't care if you think I'm a hypocrite or not since you probably don't care that I think you are an immature coward. So I guess we'll call it even and go on.

SicEmBaylor

10/30/2015, 01:35 PM

I know what my definition is but what is yours and why does your impression of them cause you to label all of them bat **** crazy?

List the denominations you don't consider evangelical.

It isn't about specific denominations or specific evangelicals that I have an issue with. It's about those willing to use the size and scope of the Federal government, in a manner inconsistent with the letter and spirit of the Constitution, to advance Christian theology and doctrine. Carson, Huck, and Santorum are examples of individuals who advocate using the power of the Federal government to turn their Christian beliefs into statutory law. Again, I consider that bat**** crazy. If it was a Muslim wanting to use the power and scope of the Federal government to enforce Sharia Law then I would also say it's bat**** crazy. If it was a Wiccan requiring Americans observe the summer solstice then I'd also say it's bat**** crazy. If it was an Atheist insisting that the government *never* acknowledge religion or God in any way then I would also say it's bat**** crazy. The fact that you seem to think this is some broad attack on Christians really speaks to that bunker mentality I spoke of earlier.

SoonerProphet

10/30/2015, 01:39 PM

I really don't care if you think I'm a hypocrite or not since you probably don't care that I think you are an immature coward. So I guess we'll call it even and go on.

That's pretty par for course as far as your logic goes. You have no substantial facts to back up your assertion of my cowardice but your hypocrisy is laid bare for the board to see.

FaninAma

10/30/2015, 01:58 PM

That's pretty par for course as far as your logic goes. You have no substantial facts to back up your assertion of my cowardice but your hypocrisy is laid bare for the board to see.
It's an opinion dumbass. I don't need facts to have an opinion although your refusal to discuss your belief system/religion while thinking it is okay to label people (including myself and many of my family and friends) as bat **** crazy for their belief system is okay makes you a coward in my book and jumping in with insults when I wasn't even addressing you makes you immature. Yeah, you didn't make the original statement but you jumped in to defend him.

And I'll let the board judge who is correct. I bet you lose that contest.

SoonerProphet

10/30/2015, 02:03 PM

It's an opinion dumbass. I don't need facts to have an opinion although your refusal to discuss your belief system/religion while thinking it is okay to label people (including myself and many of my family and friends) as bat **** crazy for their belief system is okay makes you a coward in my book and jumping in with insults when I wasn't even addressing you makes you immature. Yeah, you didn't make the original statement but you jumped in to defend him.

And I'll let the board judge who is correct. I bet you lose that contest.

Your reading comp is as poor as your logic. Nobody is calling you bat**** crazy. Sic Em gave you his thought on the matter and it seemed pretty spot on.

TAFBSooner

10/30/2015, 02:31 PM

Hey, if you want to call me bat **** crazy then go ahead. When you generalize about a group of people that live in our communities and use derogatory names to label them then you cross over into bigot territory.

I have criticized the muslim religion basically because it is the belief system that is enabling so much evil to be committed in its name. iI would probably have done the same with Chrisitanity before martin luther the Reformation. But holy crap. Muslims hate everybody....other religions, gays, differnt sects of their religion. And the hate leads them to kill those they hate. I find it beyond idiotic to denigrate a religion whose members are 99.999% peaceful and actually do a lot of good work(i.e. Christianity).

It's fair to say that more Muslims kill "for their religion" than do Christians. But it's hardly all Muslims, and it's way more than .001% of Christians that do kill "for their religion." In quotes in both cases, because the mainstreams of both religions call for peace. In both cases, believers can find justification for killing in the original texts (hence the tag "fundamentalists"); in both cases, modern people ignore those parts of their texts.

Some fundamentalists have infiltrated the military, and have indoctrinated their subordinates that they are going to war for Christianity against Islam. That is exceedingly dangerous, because the other side then convinces their followers that the US is at war against Islam.

Nothing new here. The following was from the War to End All Wars:

J. C. Squire:
God heard the embattled nations sing and shout
“Gott strafe England” and “God save the King!”
God this, God that, and God the other thing –
“Good God!” said God, “I’ve got my work cut out!”

(The mode of aerial attack took its name from the original meaning (to punish), not the other way around.)

champions77

10/30/2015, 03:18 PM

It's fair to say that more Muslims kill "for their religion" than do Christians. But it's hardly all Muslims, and it's way more than .001% of Christians that do kill "for their religion." In quotes in both cases, because the mainstreams of both religions call for peace. In both cases, believers can find justification for killing in the original texts (hence the tag "fundamentalists"); in both cases, modern people ignore those parts of their texts.

Some fundamentalists have infiltrated the military, and have indoctrinated their subordinates that they are going to war for Christianity against Islam. That is exceedingly dangerous, because the other side then convinces their followers that the US is at war against Islam.

Nothing new here. The following was from the War to End All Wars:

J. C. Squire:
God heard the embattled nations sing and shout
“Gott strafe England” and “God save the King!”
God this, God that, and God the other thing –
“Good God!” said God, “I’ve got my work cut out!”

(The mode of aerial attack took its name from the original meaning (to punish), not the other way around.)

More Muslims kill than Christians? Way to go out on a limb TAFB. My gosh do you really feel compelled to make that statement? Or are you taking us back in time 1,000 years to the Crusades like our idiot President? Hate to get on our "high horse" you know.
Whether you choose to admit it or not, the facts are that aggressive Secular Progressives have been on their own crusade to undermine and diminish the presence of Christians in this Nation beginning in 1947 with the Supreme Court ruling of Everson VS Board of Education. That was the first time that the Federal Government was required to removed religious expressions from the public arena. That Court interpreted the First Amendment not as a limitation on government interference but rather as a limitation on religious expressions and principles. Exactly the opposite as what Thomas Jefferson's words on "Separation of Church and State" had been interpreted for over a century and a half, and clearly opposite of Jefferson's intent.

Since that time there has been a steady and orchestrated undermining of religion in this country. Bunker mentality? Hardly. Any concerns we have of the diminishment of Christ in this country are justified thank you. Ample examples of it throughout society. I think that the decline in morals in the US mirrors the decline in Christian influence in this country. I know you disagree.
So please tell us what Mike Huckabee is proposing that is so offensive to you or SicEm since you two seem to be in agreement on the issue?

FaninAma

10/30/2015, 03:19 PM

Your reading comp is as poor as your logic. Nobody is calling you bat**** crazy. Sic Em gave you his thought on the matter and it seemed pretty spot on.
I consider myself an evangelical Christisan. I was raised in an evangelical Christian family. Most of my family members are active evangelical Christians. Obviously I am not a very good evangelical Christian because I have very little patience for dumbasses like you when you criticize the religion...not because it offends me but you are criticizing and labeling my family who are good Christians. The others in my family would be more tolerant of your stupidity.

Sicem was wrong to call evangelical Christians bat **** crazzy. I called him out for it. You then jumped in like a little offended turd so I assume you agree with him. If you want to direct your bull**** at me then fine but quit being a bigot and labeling all Christians.
Same goes for Sicem.

Serenity Now

10/30/2015, 04:30 PM

War on Christmas....

badger

10/30/2015, 04:35 PM

I think the current state of this thread is telling me to support the penny sales tax :P

Turd_Ferguson

10/30/2015, 05:05 PM

My verginia stinks....

Damn.

yermom

10/30/2015, 09:03 PM

Happy Holidays, Turd

Turd_Ferguson

10/31/2015, 09:42 AM

Happy Holidays, Turd

Damn heathen.

hawaii 5-0

10/31/2015, 12:02 PM

Here's one vote against the Hypocrite and his lame argument.

5-0

FaninAma

10/31/2015, 04:55 PM

Here's one vote against the Hypocrite and his lame argument.

5-0
LOL. I love that you are hiding under Soonerjihadi's skirt. So, do you support the contention that evangelical Christians are bat **** crazy?

hawaii 5-0

10/31/2015, 07:52 PM

LOL. I love that you are hiding under Soonerjihadi's skirt. So, do you support the contention that evangelical Christians are bat **** crazy?

No. Not by any means.

Just your bat**** hypocritical lame argument.

Now excuse me while I find some lame azz pledge to sign.

5-0

FaninAma

10/31/2015, 08:02 PM

No. Not by any means.

Just your bat**** hypocritical lame argument.

Now excuse me while I find some lame azz pledge to sign.

5-0
Note to self, don't pick on 5-0's girlfriend Soonerprophet....he gets weally, weally mad.

hawaii 5-0

10/31/2015, 10:41 PM

FaninAma

10/31/2015, 10:59 PM

......and Happy Halloween to you Fan.

Maybe this year, with your evangelical background you can go out into your driveway, roll around and speak in tongues. That should please the trick or treaters so they won't egg your house like they usually do every year.

5-0
Maybe you and Prophet both can learn that when you start spewing out BS somebody may call you on it.

If you want free reign to call evangelical Christians bat **** crazy I'm not your boy. Treating morons like you and Prophet with "turn the other cheek" respect is a waste of time and would do nothing to change your bigoted opinion.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

11/1/2015, 02:12 AM

The Left fears and hates Christianity, Capitalism and the Constitution. Hard to say in what order.

FaninAma

11/1/2015, 08:20 AM

The Left fears and hates Christianity, Capitalism and the Constitution. Hard to say in what order.
Christianity is especially irritating to the typical liberal because they believe morals and ethics are relative and come in shades of gray. A non-changing moral code is a hindrance to their agenda of an all-powerful secular state authority. That's why Communism has always had an intense dislike for Christianity.

yermom

11/1/2015, 10:27 AM

So are you a young earth creationist too? Because, yeah bat**** crazy.

hawaii 5-0

11/1/2015, 12:58 PM

Just love it when idiots try to tell me what I think.

Puts them on the level of Toad and Curly Sue.

5-0

FaninAma

11/1/2015, 07:32 PM

So are you a young earth creationist too? Because, yeah bat**** crazy.
I am actually not but the fact that somebody takes that part of the Bible literally gives you no justification to call them bat **** crazy and smear all evangelical Christians. Nice to see all of you bigots crawling out from beneath your slimey rocks, though, and trumpeting you bigotry for all the board to see.

FaninAma

11/1/2015, 07:34 PM

Just love it when idiots try to tell me what I think.

Puts them on the level of Toad and Curly Sue.

5-0
It's hard to determine exactly what you think because you talk out of your *** so much and a lot gets lost in translation.(See the HRC/Benghazi thread for evidence).

okie52

11/1/2015, 09:14 PM

Just love it when idiots try to tell me what I think.

Puts them on the level of Toad and Curly Sue.

5-0

Tell us what you thnk

yermom

11/1/2015, 10:47 PM

I am actually not but the fact that somebody takes that part of the Bible literally gives you no justification to call them bat **** crazy and smear all evangelical Christians. Nice to see all of you bigots crawling out from beneath your slimey rocks, though, and trumpeting you bigotry for all the board to see.

who is under rocks?

it's one think to deny evolution, but carbon dating too?

it is harmful to teach this crap, then push it into schools. if you want to stunt your own children at home that is one thing, but trying to spread the BS to the public at large is quite another.

so yeah, i'd rather keep the willfully ignorant out of office, thank you very much.

how someone can be a doctor and so ignorant of science just doesn't make any sense. is Carson that stupid or is he just playing to his idiot audience?

maybe his practice is heavily based on laying on hands and bloodletting.

TAFBSooner

11/2/2015, 10:29 AM

I think the current state of this thread is telling me to support the penny sales tax :P

I see what you did there. :)

TAFBSooner

11/2/2015, 10:36 AM

I am actually not but the fact that somebody takes that part of the Bible literally gives you no justification to call them bat **** crazy and smear all evangelical Christians. Nice to see all of you bigots crawling out from beneath your slimey rocks, though, and trumpeting you bigotry for all the board to see.

You can function in our society as a young earth creationist. (Unless you're a biologist, or a farmer, or a doctor dealing with infectious diseases, or people that benefit from those endeavors. I might have left out some folks . . .)

However, it doesn't end there. Casting science as an enemy then leaves room for the fossil fuel industry to deny science about climate change. Same problem with anti-vaxxers. Crazy or not, those people are dangerous.

hawaii 5-0

11/2/2015, 12:32 PM

Tell us what you thnk

I'm for freedom of religion. All religions.

This coming from someone who had a Muslim dorm roommate for a year. A 15 x 15 room. Now that's a challenge.

And I'm for a penny tax for education.

5-0

FaninAma

11/3/2015, 04:28 PM

You can function in our society as a young earth creationist. (Unless you're a biologist, or a farmer, or a doctor dealing with infectious diseases, or people that benefit from those endeavors. I might have left out some folks . . .)

However, it doesn't end there. Casting science as an enemy then leaves room for the fossil fuel industry to deny science about climate change. Same problem with anti-vaxxers. Crazy or not, those people are dangerous.

But when one engages in generalizations it crosses the line between valid criticism of aspects of unreasonableness among some in the religion and enters the realm of bias/bigotry against all that practice thatr religion. That's also a worrisome development.

If you want to have a conversation about earth creation literalists v. intelligent design then fine v. the theory of evolution then fine. Let's have that converstaion. The concern I have is that disagreement with some of the beliefs and doctrines Christian religion has encourage carte blanche condemnation of the entire religion and its millions of followers because the evangelicals hold some opposing viewpoints on how society should conduct itself.

Let me know the next time an evangelical Christian threatens to behead you if you refuse to convert to his/her religion of forcibly drags you into their place or worship....I will be right there with you in condemning that action.

yermom

11/3/2015, 06:44 PM

How about when they drag the country to their place of worship?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

11/3/2015, 06:56 PM

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

11/3/2015, 07:18 PM

How about when they drag the country to their place of worship? I know of no Christian, nor have I ever known of one, who advocates supplanting the Bible or its passages for the US Constitution, and those who fear that being the case are concerned over something that has not happened nor been advocated seriously in the USA. Now Muslim teachings and their intent to override a government are another matter entirely, as we have witnessed many times already, and will continue to witness.

yermom

11/3/2015, 09:40 PM

you know, unless you want to get gay married or something

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

11/4/2015, 12:21 AM

you know, unless you want to get gay married or somethingYou're equating changing the definition of marriage with terrorism, beheadings and the like?That's just damn goofy.

yermom

11/4/2015, 12:29 AM

who is equating?

you say Christians don't push their religion on non-believers, and i call bull****

when your religion needs to suppress science and free thought to maintain "truth" then maybe you have problems.

it works for Republicans too, so i can see the attraction for you.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

11/4/2015, 01:47 AM

badger

11/4/2015, 10:32 AM

Every so often I peek at this thread to see if there's any replies about the penny sales tax

And I'm for a penny tax for education.

Awww thanks for tossing me a bone 5-0 :P

FaninAma

11/4/2015, 10:39 AM

the hell you talking about?!
As with most progressives he equates holding conservative moral values and supporting those values through the political process as "pushing your religion."

Serenity Now

11/4/2015, 10:45 AM

As with most progressives he is equates holding conservative moral values and supporting those values through the political process as "pushing your religion."

Modifying school texts to be in line with your ideology is an example. Google the ignorance that the Texas school book program is spreading across our nation due to economies of scale.

I'm for the sales tax badger. :)

badger

11/4/2015, 11:14 AM

Oooo! More sales tax discussion! ;)

I would be a few tenths of a percent more likely to vote for it (or sign the petition to get it to a vote, whatever the next step is). if all public universities pledged to not raise tuition and fees for at least one calendar year after this passes, if it should pass.

There's precedent: California voters raised their taxes and the Cali schools all froze tuition because of it (and then raised it a year later instead, yes, but still....)

Any legal experts on here on voting to raise our own taxes in this state? Is it just sales tax, or can voters petition to also raise their own income and property taxes statewide? I know we can raise property taxes locally -- Tulsa voters did that within the last year (Full disclosure: I voted for it)

champions77

11/4/2015, 11:30 AM

Modifying school texts to be in line with your ideology is an example. Google the ignorance that the Texas school book program is spreading across our nation due to economies of scale.

I'm for the sales tax badger. :)

Really, the vast majority of "modifications" of school texts books is the left trying to diminish God, and our history. They have been on a crusade for decades now. So any thing you see supporting religion is push back from all of the secular progressive attempts to diminish religion. They also spend a great deal of time "revising" history.
You know Sir you are letting strong convictions of liberalism, and it's secular progressive agenda outweigh your obligations of being a Christian. Most every time when discussing religion, you take the secular progressive position. And that position is dismissing Christians in this country, diminishing Jesus Christ at every opportunity.

I have to wonder at what point in the secular progressive crusade to suppress religious thought and expression do you stand up for Christ? Maybe you have, but can't recall when it was. Do you think maybe he expects that from believers, that we stand up and defend him? I see you defending Barack and Hillary a lot more than you do Jesus.

Serenity Now

11/4/2015, 12:25 PM

Really, the vast majority of "modifications" of school texts books is the left trying to diminish God, and our history. They have been on a crusade for decades now. So any thing you see supporting religion is push back from all of the secular progressive attempts to diminish religion. They also spend a great deal of time "revising" history.
You know Sir you are letting strong convictions of liberalism, and it's secular progressive agenda outweigh your obligations of being a Christian. Most every time when discussing religion, you take the secular progressive position. And that position is dismissing Christians in this country, diminishing Jesus Christ at every opportunity.

I have to wonder at what point in the secular progressive crusade to suppress religious thought and expression do you stand up for Christ? Maybe you have, but can't recall when it was. Do you think maybe he expects that from believers, that we stand up and defend him? I see you defending Barack and Hillary a lot more than you do Jesus.

Whitewashing the trail of tears? Whitewashing slavery? Diminishing the role of Thomas Jefferson?

I expect that Christ is more concerned with the millions of people living in squalor and hunger than some version of American Exceptionalism that so many of us worry about.

The AP History class issue is a great example.

Serenity Now

11/4/2015, 12:32 PM

I have to wonder at what point in the secular progressive crusade to suppress religious thought and expression do you stand up for Christ? Maybe you have, but can't recall when it was. Do you think maybe he expects that from believers, that we stand up and defend him? I see you defending Barack and Hillary a lot more than you do Jesus.
I guess we have a different walk. I take what is important to me from the Bible - those things written in red are a good start. I'd much rather see people talk about the beatitudes, the greatest commandment, etc. than what someone wrote in Leviticus 500 B.C.

REDREX

11/4/2015, 12:42 PM

champions77

11/4/2015, 12:50 PM

I guess we have a different walk. I take what is important to me from the Bible - those things written in red are a good start. I'd much rather see people talk about the beatitudes, the greatest commandment, etc. than what someone wrote in Leviticus 500 B.C.

Again, it would be hard for you to disagree that Christ is under assault in this country. Been that way since the Supreme Court ruled in 1947 the ridiculous "Separation of Church and State" interpretation of the Constitution that was diametrically opposite of Jefferson's intent. Since you are a Christian, shouldn't you stand against your secular progressive brothers and defend Christ? I think Jesus would expect that?

Serenity Now

11/4/2015, 01:21 PM

---Can you show me in the Bible where abortion is OK----Hard to pick and choose from the bible

I've never said it was "OK" or endorsed by any doctrine. That's really not the point. There are two commandments that I personally focus on. I could ask if you could show me where it said in the Bible to not treat your neighbors (immigrants) as equals.

Serenity Now

11/4/2015, 01:25 PM

Again, it would be hard for you to disagree that Christ is under assault in this country. Been that way since the Supreme Court ruled in 1947 the ridiculous "Separation of Church and State" interpretation of the Constitution that was diametrically opposite of Jefferson's intent. Since you are a Christian, shouldn't you stand against your secular progressive brothers and defend Christ? I think Jesus would expect that?

It's laughable to think that there's some war on Christians. It does play a great role in attracting baby boomer eyes to that news channel.

I respect non-Christians and their rights. I've read exactly the opposite of Jefferson's intent. I'm sure we don't know who's right. I think some of our separation of church/state issues are too much. But, if you lived in Dearborn, MI you're probably OK with not having prayer in school. Or Utah?

REDREX

11/4/2015, 01:47 PM

FaninAma

11/4/2015, 01:58 PM

FaninAma

11/4/2015, 02:06 PM

It's laughable to think that there's some war on Christians. It does play a great role in attracting baby boomer eyes to that news channel.

I respect non-Christians and their rights. I've read exactly the opposite of Jefferson's intent. I'm sure we don't know who's right. I think some of our separation of church/state issues are too much. But, if you lived in Dearborn, MI you're probably OK with not having prayer in school. Or Utah?

There isn't a "war" on Christians. There is a sentiment on the left that it is OK to ridicule and denigrate Christian beliefs especially those that run counter to liberal pet issues like abortion and gay marriage. The trend began in a subtle way but has become less subtle over the last 8 years.

Rights are what the government defines them as. If you control the power of the government, especially the judicial and executive branches, you can redefine rights any way you want to.

Ton Loc

11/4/2015, 02:52 PM

Why don't you just tell us what Texas is doing that upsets you so much.

Downplaying slavery, the civil war, women's rights, black rights, KKK, etc. Pretty much anything before 1970. Texas had to go through 5 revisions within the last year and they still end up with passages in books like this

Many enslaved Africans found comfort in their community and culture. They made time for social activity, even after exhausting workdays, in order to relieve the hardship of their lives. Although they were forced to immigrate to the United States, their culture is one of the foundations of the current national identity, especially in the worlds of music and religion.

The treatment of enslaved Africans varied. Some slaves reported that their masters treated them kindly. To protect their investment, some slaveholders provided adequate food and clothing for their slaves.

champions77

11/4/2015, 02:53 PM

Why don't you just tell us what Texas is doing that upsets you so much.

Probably something like that man's inalienable rights are endowed to him by our creator, not the Federal Government. Tell that to a leftist they have a meltdown.

okie52

11/4/2015, 03:04 PM

I've never said it was "OK" or endorsed by any doctrine. That's really not the point. There are two commandments that I personally focus on. I could ask if you could show me where it said in the Bible to not treat your neighbors (immigrants) as equals.

I hate to get into the "Bible" says scenarios but...

There are legal immigrants and illegal immigrants. The Bible has many passages admonishing its followers to obey the laws. Treating a neighbor that breaks the law the same as an illegal that breaks the law is not a contradiction.

champions77

11/4/2015, 03:30 PM

I hate to get into the "Bible" says scenarios but...

There are legal immigrants and illegal immigrants. The Bible has many passages admonishing its followers to obey the laws. Treating a neighbor that breaks the law the same as an illegal that breaks the law is not a contradiction.

Why is it that leftists always refer to "immigrants", they never differentiate between "legal" and illegal". I heard the witch Hillary the other day giving a speech and she called them just "immigrants". Here you see Serenity doing it too. Very disingenuous on their part. They want to paint a picture that the GOP is against ALL immigrants. Nothing could be further from the truth. This can be a huge winner for the GOP if they point out the costs of illegal immigration, and drive home the point that these people come her disrespecting our laws, and that they are here breaking our laws.
I hate to think how ugly this next election will be. Hillary certainly will not be adverse to telling lies and getting in the gutter. The GOP candidate, especially if it's Carson, will not do it. Knowing how naïve and gullible the American people are, that will give Hillary a distinct advantage. Lies that Hillary tells will be believed. And the MSM certainly will not hold her accountable for all of her deception, innuendos and lies. Therein lies a huge advantage for the Dems. It will be tough to overcome.

okie52

11/4/2015, 03:38 PM

Why is it that leftists always refer to "immigrants", they never differentiate between "legal" and illegal". I heard the witch Hillary the other day giving a speech and she called them just "immigrants". Here you see Serenity doing it too. Very disingenuous on their part. They want to paint a picture that the GOP is against ALL immigrants. Nothing could be further from the truth. This can be a huge winner for the GOP if they point out the costs of illegal immigration, and drive home the point that these people come her disrespecting our laws, and that they are here breaking our laws.
I hate to think how ugly this next election will be. Hillary certainly will not be adverse to telling lies and getting in the gutter. The GOP candidate, especially if it's Carson, will not do it. Knowing how naïve and gullible the American people are, that will give Hillary a distinct advantage. Lies that Hillary tells will be believed. And the MSM certainly will not hold her accountable for all of her deception, innuendos and lies. Therein lies a huge advantage for the Dems. It will be tough to overcome.

When you have news organizations like the AP refuse to use the term "illegal" anymore you get a pretty good view of the state of journalism in this country. PC has gotten ridiculously embarrassing these days.

The reason why Trump (and probably carson, too) is such a phenomenon is that he has crapped all over PC and amnesty backers.

Serenity Now

11/4/2015, 03:42 PM

Ben Carson: Truth teller...http://www.politifact.com/personalities/ben-carson/statements/

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/426270/what-ben-carsons-mannatech-answer-tells-us-jim-geraghty

One of those is from a conservative source.

Trump does better: http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

He has some "mostly true".

Serenity Now

11/4/2015, 03:43 PM

champions77

11/4/2015, 04:51 PM

You're not wrong. I've been to border town Mexico and don't blame them for scratching and clawing to get here.

Well we do everything but put out a "welcome mat". Sanctuary Cities, welfare, jobs, I do blame illegals for disrespecting our laws, but I place more blame on the US for not enforcing our laws, and for providing benefits to law breakers. Employers? They're law breakers too. I would place a heavy fine on any caught employing illegals. That's how they "self-deport". You dry up the jobs, and most would leave on their own. Then you have BHO further ignoring our laws and his authority by granting thousands the dictum that we are not going to deport you.

It's all insanity at it's highest level.

Serenity Now

11/4/2015, 05:41 PM

Well we do everything but put out a "welcome mat". Sanctuary Cities, welfare, jobs, I do blame illegals for disrespecting our laws, but I place more blame on the US for not enforcing our laws, and for providing benefits to law breakers. Employers? They're law breakers too. I would place a heavy fine on any caught employing illegals. That's how they "self-deport". You dry up the jobs, and most would leave on their own. Then you have BHO further ignoring our laws and his authority by granting thousands the dictum that we are not going to deport you.

It's all insanity at it's highest level.

I almost agree with you. I agree about penalizing the people hiring illegals.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

11/4/2015, 06:38 PM

Well we do everything but put out a "welcome mat". Sanctuary Cities, welfare, jobs, I do blame illegals for disrespecting our laws, but I place more blame on the US for not enforcing our laws, and for providing benefits to law breakers. Employers? They're law breakers too. I would place a heavy fine on any caught employing illegals. That's how they "self-deport". You dry up the jobs, and most would leave on their own. Then you have BHO further ignoring our laws and his authority by granting thousands the dictum that we are not going to deport you.

It's all insanity at it's highest level.You have to wonder about anyone who doesn't understand this or agree with it.

olevetonahill

11/4/2015, 08:27 PM

Ok Back on Taxes, IMHO Not ONE red cent for any government Growth.
If I cant help my local skools keep the weirdos OUT of the Bathrooms then NO!

yermom

11/4/2015, 09:56 PM

So let me get this straight... Do you need to respect all the laws or just the ones you like?

olevetonahill

11/4/2015, 11:51 PM

So let me get this straight... Do you need to respect all the laws or just the ones you like?

Que?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

11/4/2015, 11:55 PM

Que?He's going to name some laws that were clearly established by democrats and/or RINOS and the same type of presidents, with passage by the left leaning congress or by Executive edict.

olevetonahill

11/5/2015, 12:05 AM

He's going to name some laws that were clearly established by democrats and/or RINOS and the same type of presidents, with passage by the left leaning congress or by Executive edict.

I like Dave a Lot, Dont understand him But Like him. Still waiting on him to give me a Straight up answer on "When his Little girl, Goes to school, and some weirdo Fag boy says hes a Girl and waltzes into the GIRLS Bathroom where his Baby girl is Peein, pulls out his dick and shakes it at her and says"Im a Girl:"
" What is he going to do? Say Oh well that little ****ed it kid is Normal and I want my Baby girl to see this cause We are LIBS?

yermom

11/5/2015, 08:03 AM

Que?

this whole rant about illegals being law breakers just being in the country and not respecting our laws

maybe the laws need to change? just because there is a law about it doesn't magically make it right.

yermom

11/5/2015, 08:05 AM

I like Dave a Lot, Dont understand him But Like him. Still waiting on him to give me a Straight up answer on "When his Little girl, Goes to school, and some weirdo Fag boy says hes a Girl and waltzes into the GIRLS Bathroom where his Baby girl is Peein, pulls out his dick and shakes it at her and says"Im a Girl:"
" What is he going to do? Say Oh well that little ****ed it kid is Normal and I want my Baby girl to see this cause We are LIBS?

i'll let you know when it happens. is this a common occurance anywhere?

TheHumanAlphabet

11/5/2015, 08:59 AM

I've never said it was "OK" or endorsed by any doctrine. That's really not the point. There are two commandments that I personally focus on. I could ask if you could show me where it said in the Bible to not treat your neighbors (immigrants) as equals.

However, Jesus did say give Caesar his due and to obey laws. Illegal aliens are NOT obeying the law and are ILLEGAL and need to be deported.

TheHumanAlphabet

11/5/2015, 09:01 AM

maybe the laws need to change? just because there is a law about it doesn't magically make it right.

Nope, maybe the ILLEGALS need to obey the law, go home and try to come over as legal...

Better yet, How about I come over to your house and squat. Then say I get to stay in your house for as long as I would like, using your utilities and eating your food. And if you are against that, well then you are not compassionate. What's your address?

TAFBSooner

11/5/2015, 10:29 AM

Probably something like that man's inalienable rights are endowed to him by our creator, not the Federal Government. Tell that to a leftist they have a meltdown.

Serious question - I'm sure there is an answer but I haven't come across it. Please show the derivation of the rights to Life, Liberty, the Pursuit of Happiness, (and Property, which didn't make the final cut) from Biblical text. I will spot you Life, since God created us.

TAFBSooner

11/5/2015, 10:35 AM

FaninAma

11/5/2015, 10:43 AM

Call my reps and say I'm not in favor of raising the regressive sales tax. Please reverse the cuts to the income tax that have put us in this predicament.

I'm sure they will ignore my input.

Then, as Lincoln described in the Highwayman anecdote in his Cooper Union speech, I will probably vote for the sales tax when it comes up. :-|

Texas gets by without a state income tax but they do have higher property taxes. The problem Oklahoma has is that the state's economic stucture was destroyed by 75 years of Democrat control that used cronyism with trial lawyers, labor unions and corruption at the local and state level. This all discouraged businesses and corporations from locating to the state.

badger

11/5/2015, 11:30 AM

I remember hearing President Boren lament that the state probably has much regret over how it squandered its oil wealth decades ago and if only it had the chance to go back and do thing again, they would try to do better for the future of the state.

Alas, there is oil boom always followed by oil bust. Always. Perhaps the next time that the state has another boom, we'll do things better... but based on history, we'll probably act like the boom will never bust again, revel in our short-term wealth and do nothing long-term beyond a small rainy day fund.

Granted, I give the state a lot of credit for having a rainy day fund, but cutting taxes is basically declaring that the boom will never bust, because it is nigh-near-impossible to get this state to raise taxes once they are cut. Unless I am mistaken, it takes a super majority of both houses to get one to pass the legislature.

So, that's why we are where we are now, asking voters to vote themselves higher taxes. :(

What's the longer shot --- a super majority of legislators voting to raise taxes, or the voters themselves raising their own taxes?

champions77

11/5/2015, 11:50 AM

Serious question - I'm sure there is an answer but I haven't come across it. Please show the derivation of the rights to Life, Liberty, the Pursuit of Happiness, (and Property, which didn't make the final cut) from Biblical text. I will spot you Life, since God created us.

I don't know where in scripture that is addressed, but suffice to say that "Unalienable rights" are absolute and permanent, just as our creator is permanent. Moreover, these rights are not given by government, therefore government cannot take them away.

This was important to our framers as it was addressed in the US Constitution and further addressed in the Bill of Rights. These "rights' have been a protector of basic liberties that have made the American experience so unique and the very fabric of why we are exceptional.

Historically, the governments that exercised more authority and control over it's citizens, experienced fewer basic rights and liberties. That's what makes a growing, more powerful, more authoritarian, more controlling central government a real concern to conservatives or libertarians. We know how this ends.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

11/5/2015, 11:53 AM

So Badger, you trust government to spend money wisely, when it comes to "free" education?!...vote no on increased taxation.

champions77

11/5/2015, 12:22 PM

Texas gets by without a state income tax but they do have higher property taxes. The problem Oklahoma has is that the state's economic stucture was destroyed by 75 years of Democrat control that used cronyism with trial lawyers, labor unions and corruption at the local and state level. This all discouraged businesses and corporations from locating to the state.

Yep that and they passed "Right to work" decades ago, and they have been much more pro-business in their legislature. We lure in GM with the promise of abating their taxes for ten years, and then after they have poured millions into their new plant....our Attorney General at the time, approaches GM and demands 8 million in back taxes, claiming that the tax abatement promised them was actually unconstitutional. Tell me that has not cost us untold employers and jobs over the last 20 years.
Funny how the pro-business states always seem to attract more jobs than states that are not so pro-business.

Serenity Now

11/5/2015, 01:26 PM

Yep that and they passed "Right to work" decades ago, and they have been much more pro-business in their legislature. We lure in GM with the promise of abating their taxes for ten years, and then after they have poured millions into their new plant....our Attorney General at the time, approaches GM and demands 8 million in back taxes, claiming that the tax abatement promised them was actually unconstitutional. Tell me that has not cost us untold employers and jobs over the last 20 years.
Funny how the pro-business states always seem to attract more jobs than states that are not so pro-business.

I've always assumed that Texas can do that with their tax base because they have Houston, Dallas, etc. Economies of scale and all...Am I wrong about that?

champions77

11/5/2015, 02:27 PM

I've always assumed that Texas can do that with their tax base because they have Houston, Dallas, etc. Economies of scale and all...Am I wrong about that?

You may be right, but the larger populations carry their own monetary obligations too as in infrastructure etc. It would be an interesting matter to explore. I just think Oklahoma for too long was not the friendliest place to do business, and usually when we went up against Texas when a company was moving to the region, we lost. Lot of reasons for that, but a big reason was that Texas was an easier place to do business, whether it be taxes, regulations, worker's comp.
Again, the GM fiasco has hurt this state probably more than anyone can fathom. You can bet that the GM CEO at the time was asked about doing business here, and how do you think he responded? And their memory was long. When it came time to shutter a plant, you can bet OKC was near the top.

FaninAma

11/5/2015, 05:05 PM

I've always assumed that Texas can do that with their tax base because they have Houston, Dallas, etc. Economies of scale and all...Am I wrong about that?
Pro-business environments breed success. Corruption and cronyism breed what Oklahoma got until the 1990's.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

11/5/2015, 06:24 PM

Pro-business environments breed success. Corruption and cronyism breed what Oklahoma got until the 1990's.Frank Keating was the first Oklahoma governor that I remember thinking he was a good man, and did my home state proud.

yermom

11/5/2015, 07:58 PM

Keating was a ******.

SicEmBaylor

11/5/2015, 11:03 PM

Serenity Now

11/6/2015, 12:52 AM

I met Keating many times. I always liked the guy quite a lot, but that was back in my more establishment-leaning days. Nonetheless, Keating was really the first truly pro-business governor in Oklahoma history. He was excellent.
I liked Keating. His brother's a dick. I have really liked a lot of our Governors. Falin is the first one who I haven't been able to muster must respect for her.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

11/6/2015, 02:17 AM

Keating was a ******.C'mon, man!

FaninAma

11/6/2015, 08:20 AM

Keating was a ******.
I take your opinion as a solid endorsement of the man. I avoid the so-called conservatives that progressives heap praise on.

badger

11/6/2015, 03:17 PM

So Badger, you trust government to spend money wisely, when it comes to "free" education?!...vote no on increased taxation.

It's not a matter of trust, per se. It's a matter of knowing that the government is responsible for certain things in this state and those things need to be funded. Granted, there are very creative ways around some of this (like Texas allowing another country to build a toll road around Austin and charge tolls on it for 50 years or something), but for the most part, the government has stuff it needs to do and it needs to be funded properly to do these things.

As for "free" education, I know that nothing in life is free and that there are stings attached to anything that claims to be. Just this morning, the guy at the junk food store was turning away food stamp customers because the computer was down. Government will do things on their terms and it may not always be convenient or best for voters, which is why we must hold them accountable in elections.

I've always assumed that Texas can do that with their tax base because they have Houston, Dallas, etc. Economies of scale and all...Am I wrong about that?

I've assumed that as well, but oil royalties are also a big part of that. Hell, UT and A&M get millions in royalties annually.

Corruption and cronyism breed what Oklahoma got until the 1990's.
Take heed, elected officials. Your constituents will vote you out if they get fed up with your crap. I took immense pleasure in voting out Janet Barresi last election. Lesser pleasure in John Sullivan, but I thought it was time for something else to represent the district.

I just think Oklahoma for too long was not the friendliest place to do business, and usually when we went up against Texas when a company was moving to the region, we lost.

Yeah, it's tough competition down south of the Red River. I'd like to think we have some advantage when it comes to lower property taxes, less traffic, etc.