Unexpected receiver addition....

[swardboy]

The Oklahoma Sooners (http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/teams/oklahoma-sooners) continued to a stellar week in recruiting by adding a 2015 wide receiver to the roster. Late Friday night, top 50 JUCO player, Jarvis Baxter, joined the program as a walk-on after a bit of an interesting journey.
Initially, the standout chose South Florida as home in November of 2014 and later signed with the program. However, in the middle of July this year, Baxter was released from his letter of intent with USF after failing to qualify academically. That begs the question as to how the wide receiver attained the required GPA for admittance into the University of Oklahoma?
According to Bob Pryzbylo of Scout (http://www.scout.com/college/oklahoma/story/1569061-jarvis-baxter-joining-sooners), "Baxter said USF only allows someone to use nine credit hours in the summer to meet the required GPA. Baxter took more than nine hours but those extra hours couldn't count for USF but do count for OU. OU allows for more than nine hours in the summer, which is what Baxter needed to reach the required GPA."
Lacking proven experience in the group aside from Sterling Shepard (http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/players/160989/sterling-shepard), Baxter is hoping to compete for not only for playing time but also a scholarship during the upcoming season. The journey continues on August 4th when the team reports to campus.


http://www.hudl.com/v/C5eUp

[REDREX]

Not real big

[jdsooner]

Javis is a welcome addition to Sooner Nation! We need depth at wide receiver.

[Mazeppa]

We need "quality" depth at wide receiver. Just sayin'

[KantoSooner]

He's a walk on. I'm all for it. And our luck with juco wrs has not been bad. If he could be the next Scooba, he's worth the time and energy

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

He's a walk on. I'm all for it. And our luck with juco wrs has not been bad. If he could be the next Scooba, he's worth the time and energy

Just clarifying here, we've had good luck in Year 2 with juco WRs. Year 1, they have a tendency to start fast disappear for 8 games, then come on late.

[KantoSooner]

And I think he's got 3 to play 2? He's worth the coaching time this year. If he can 'show' then he gets a Schollie. If not, nothing other than some time expended.

[Tear Down This Wall]

USF's entrance standard for athletes is tougher than ours?

Sheesh.

[KantoSooner]

No. Different. Ours allow more summer hours to count. Been discussed to death.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

USF's entrance standard for athletes is tougher than ours?

Sheesh.

This is the first time I've ever seen a quarters school not have an advantage over OU. Most of the time that extra semester gives so much leeway that they don't qualify at OU but qualify at Oregon/UCLA. However, there is an absolute ceiling on the number of hours per semester that a quarters school will allow (whereas there isn't for a semester school).

[Tear Down This Wall]

Okay, gleaned from some recruiting websites, his only Power Five offer was from...drum roll, please...Texas Tech! The remainder from the likes of North Texas, UL-Monroe, both New Mexico schools...basically all the vomit hash from Sun Belt/C-USA. Boy, that Kingsbury is really aiming high when it comes to recruiting for the Sand Aggies. Trying to muscle in on the Mean Green and other lightweights in the region. What has he lost, about a dozen games in a row for the Sand Ags?

Before JUCO and USF, this kid committed to SMU out of high school (Garland Lakeview Centennial). Really. It says so.

[Tear Down This Wall]

This is the first time I've ever seen a quarters school not have an advantage over OU. Most of the time that extra semester gives so much leeway that they don't qualify at OU but qualify at Oregon/UCLA. However, there is an absolute ceiling on the number of hours per semester that a quarters school will allow (whereas there isn't for a semester school).

Well. Whatever. It has allowed us to benefit from talent worthy of SMU and South Florida. Maybe its not to late to join the American Athletic Conference/C-USA Reboot, have our own conference to dominate!

[cvsooner]

Well. Whatever. It has allowed us to benefit from talent worthy of SMU and South Florida. Maybe its not to late to join the American Athletic Conference/C-USA Reboot, have our own conference to dominate!

I think you really should become a fan of some other school and take your leave of this one.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Well. Whatever. It has allowed us to benefit from talent worthy of SMU and South Florida. Maybe its not to late to join the American Athletic Conference/C-USA Reboot, have our own conference to dominate!

I typically let them play before I pass judgement on them. I've been making a series of tableau visualizations with you in mind.

https://public.tableau.com/profile/jkm1#!/vizhome/RecruitingvsDraftInfo/DrafteesbyStateTop100

More guys who weren't in the state top 100 from California were drafted than ones that were in it ;)

[Tear Down This Wall]

I think you really should become a fan of some other school and take your leave of this one.

Because I won't celebrate walk-ons whose best options before were SMU, USF, and Tech? You must be kidding. If this caliber of player is what we now celebrate, it is not I who needs a new school to cheer, but many others.

I expect Oklahoma to be Oklahoma, not bottom-barreling due to a receiver shortage. That we've become Texas Tech's twin is a problem...which will be solved within a couple of years when Stoops is gone.

Expect better. The program is capable of it.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Because I won't celebrate walk-ons whose best options before were SMU, USF, and Tech? You must be kidding. If this caliber of player is what we now celebrate, it is not I who needs a new school to cheer, but many others.

I expect Oklahoma to be Oklahoma, not bottom-barreling due to a receiver shortage. That we've become Texas Tech's twin is a problem...which will be solved within a couple of years when Stoops is gone.

Expect better. The program is capable of it.

We've gotten several pretty good WRs over the years that had similar offers. We've also passed on some great WRs because we went after the higher rated receiver. Every time I go back and realize we could have had Mark Clayton and Wes Welker in the same receiving corps it annoys the crap out of me.

[KantoSooner]

How many stars did Welker have, again?

[Tear Down This Wall]

Welker 2000-2003

Texas Tech 0-4 versus OU. Final two years, experienced Welker loses to OU 60-15 and 56-25. Welker scores 1 touchdown combined in the two games, the only touchdown he scored in four games against Oklahoma.

Welker is lucky Tech gave him a scholarship. He'd have sat on our bench his freshman year while we won a national title. And, it's unlikely he'd have ever started at game at OU.

He should always be grateful to Texas Tech, for sure, who are always desperate for any player to agree to spend four years of their lives in Lubbock. But, OU never needed him.

As it stood, OU beat Welker and Tech every year, played for three conference titles and two national titles without him. It's good that he got to play in the galleryfurniture.com Bowl, Tangerine Bowl, Alamo Bowl, and Houston Bowl while with Tech. Those are, for the players who are involved, probably fun. The parents are likely proud to sit in the half empty stadiums and watch them as well.

[cvsooner]

Any player is only as good as the team around him. Imagine what Welker might have done at OU. Or if we had Tyler Lockett last season. C'mon, man...stop taking digs at players just because you can.

How many Super Bowl rings does Welker have again?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Welker 2000-2003

Texas Tech 0-4 versus OU. Final two years, experienced Welker loses to OU 60-15 and 56-25. Welker scores 1 touchdown combined in the two games, the only touchdown he scored in four games against Oklahoma.

Welker is lucky Tech gave him a scholarship. He'd have sat on our bench his freshman year while we won a national title. And, it's unlikely he'd have ever started at game at OU.

He should always be grateful to Texas Tech, for sure, who are always desperate for any player to agree to spend four years of their lives in Lubbock. But, OU never needed him.

As it stood, OU beat Welker and Tech every year, played for three conference titles and two national titles without him. It's good that he got to play in the galleryfurniture.com Bowl, Tangerine Bowl, Alamo Bowl, and Houston Bowl while with Tech. Those are, for the players who are involved, probably fun. The parents are likely proud to sit in the half empty stadiums and watch them as well.

Really? You are using team stats to prove how good a player is? Welker is going to be in the college football HOF and might have a shot at the NFL HOF.

In 2000, he would have redshirted just like the other receivers in his class -> Will Peoples and Mark Clayton.
In 2001, he would have been instrumental after we lost Mackey and Clayton to injuries. He also would have been our Punt Returner if anyone remembers the revolving door back there.
In 2002, he would have stepped in when Peoples went down. Peoples was never the same after that so he wouldn't have been an impact there.
2003/2004 - It would have been Clayton/Jones/Welker/Bradley primary with Travis Lewis/Rankins on spot duty.

[KantoSooner]

Tear, you really take the cake. The young man wants to come walk on. I'm not expecting anyone to turn cartwheels, but, what the hell? Maybe he got better in the past several years. It happens.
We've had enough All World guys who can't manage to perform or stay on campus. And thats not just us: a lot of the 'top' talent ends up notso hotso.
So, this young man is more than welcome in my book.

[BoulderSooner79]

Using Welker as an example of someone not good enough for OU just because he played for Tech? Good enough for the Pats/Broncos, but not the Sooners? I'm having a tough time following that one.

[cvsooner]

Apparently TDTW wants the Sooners to be Soviet hockey...recruit only the absolute top, work them mercilessly and only lose a game once every two decades. It ain't happening, not in this day and age. He yearns for the old Bud Wilkinson days when the Sooners were indeed very good but also built a 47-game winning streak beating up on the likes of Kansas, Iowa State, Oklahoma A & M...actually not much has changed, really, other than the fact that everybody else got a lot better at football.

[graphster]

Welker 2000-2003

Texas Tech 0-4 versus OU. Final two years, experienced Welker loses to OU 60-15 and 56-25. Welker scores 1 touchdown combined in the two games, the only touchdown he scored in four games against Oklahoma.

Welker is lucky Tech gave him a scholarship. He'd have sat on our bench his freshman year while we won a national title. And, it's unlikely he'd have ever started at game at OU.

He should always be grateful to Texas Tech, for sure, who are always desperate for any player to agree to spend four years of their lives in Lubbock. But, OU never needed him.

As it stood, OU beat Welker and Tech every year, played for three conference titles and two national titles without him. It's good that he got to play in the galleryfurniture.com Bowl, Tangerine Bowl, Alamo Bowl, and Houston Bowl while with Tech. Those are, for the players who are involved, probably fun. The parents are likely proud to sit in the half empty stadiums and watch them as well.

LOL. Welker has done more in the NFL than all of the Stoops era Sooner WRs have, combined.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Really? You are using team stats to prove how good a player is? Welker is going to be in the college football HOF and might have a shot at the NFL HOF.

In 2000, he would have redshirted just like the other receivers in his class -> Will Peoples and Mark Clayton.
In 2001, he would have been instrumental after we lost Mackey and Clayton to injuries. He also would have been our Punt Returner if anyone remembers the revolving door back there.
In 2002, he would have stepped in when Peoples went down. Peoples was never the same after that so he wouldn't have been an impact there.
2003/2004 - It would have been Clayton/Jones/Welker/Bradley primary with Travis Lewis/Rankins on spot duty.

Maybe. You don't have any idea. We didn't run an offense anywhere similar to Texas Tech's, so he wouldn't have had the same opportunites here that he had there. That's the point.

We didn't need him, and he didn't need us. The receivers we had were bigger and also great blockers. He just ran around in that high school offense Leach used at Tech, catching balls four yards behind or past the line of scrimmage. He got lucky when the Chargers dealt him to New England, a team which doesn't let its quarterback throw down the field very far. It was perfect for him.

He should thank his lucky stars that he didn't come to OU, either as a walk-on or scholarship player. He was a system player who found two systems that worked for him. Thousands of players don't find that. He got lucky twice, and should be thankful for it.

We didn't need him. And, for the record, the College Football Hall of Fame is a joke. There are tons of coaches in there with losing records and players who did not lead their programs to any type of championships. Submit your own name and some fake credentials to the College Hall and they might let you in as well.

[cvsooner]

I think of Jalen Saunders, who was heavily recruited by Fresno State and wound up with us. I'd love to have a couple more like him. Top recruits don't always--in fact, frequently--don't pan out. I'm with JKM: find football players and make them better. We seem to have settled into a pattern of finding excellent athletes who aren't very good at playing football, and that, if anything, has been the big issue for us in the past seven or eight years.

[Curly Bill]

Recruiting is largely a crapshoot, and regardless of the number of stars a kid has it's a tough deal to identify and sign the ones that will excel as college players.

OU's problem is that it doesn't seem able to do this as well as it once did earlier in the Stoops tenure, and I dare say OU's development of players once here has also slid.

Will the new coaching changes help in this regard? We shall see. I'd say that I'm more pessimistic than optimistic.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Other than being human and, therefore, walking upon two legs, there is no similarity between Saunders and this Baxter kid.

Saunders had offers from Power Five schools, more than one. He played at Fresno State as a freshman, returning kicks and working into the receiver rotation there to the tune of being third on the team in receptions. His sophomore season, he was all conference. Then, he transferred to OU.

Baxter hasn't done anything of the sort that Saunders did. He committed to June Jones' SMU outfit as it was tanking. Couldn't cut get qualified and spent two years at a JUCO. After being courted by a number of notoriously poor football programs, he chose USF.

When he couldn't complete the monumental task of taking 12 hours to get qualified, he chose to walk-on at OU.

Saunders was good enough to play as a freshman and had himself squared away off the field as well. He was on scholarship at Fresno and OU. This Baxter kid, he hasn't squared himself away off the field twice now. He's in his fourth year away from high school football and hasn't played a snap of real college football. There is no similarity, football-wise, whatsoever, between Saunders and Baxter.

This is no major coup in recruiting. Properly put, this is a footnote.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I think of Jalen Saunders, who was heavily recruited by Fresno State and wound up with us. I'd love to have a couple more like him. Top recruits don't always--in fact, frequently--don't pan out. I'm with JKM: find football players and make them better. We seem to have settled into a pattern of finding excellent athletes who aren't very good at playing football, and that, if anything, has been the big issue for us in the past seven or eight years.

I'd take another Saunders - a proven entity by the end of his sophomore year - as well. But, this kid ain't it.

[Curly Bill]

And as an addendum to my above post:

It does trouble me, as I've joked about on here before, that more and more OU seems to be in competition less and less with the likes of Alabama, LSU, and the likes for recruits, and more and more in competition with North Texas, New Mexico, ULM, and the like.

[graphster]

Maybe. You don't have any idea. We didn't run an offense anywhere similar to Texas Tech's, so he wouldn't have had the same opportunites here that he had there. That's the point.

We didn't need him, and he didn't need us. The receivers we had were bigger and also great blockers. He just ran around in that high school offense Leach used at Tech, catching balls four yards behind or past the line of scrimmage. He got lucky when the Chargers dealt him to New England, a team which doesn't let its quarterback throw down the field very far. It was perfect for him.

He should thank his lucky stars that he didn't come to OU, either as a walk-on or scholarship player. He was a system player who found two systems that worked for him. Thousands of players don't find that. He got lucky twice, and should be thankful for it.

We didn't need him. And, for the record, the College Football Hall of Fame is a joke. There are tons of coaches in there with losing records and players who did not lead their programs to any type of championships. Submit your own name and some fake credentials to the College Hall and they might let you in as well.
Do you even watch the games? Our offense relied pretty heavily on slot receivers taking people apart with underneath passes. There was a time when Hybl was criticized by the fan base for never throwing downfield, we threw underneath so much. In 2004-2007, we became more of a power run team due to Peterson, but prior to that (and since then), we have used the short passing game as a major part of the offense.

There's a reason that guys like Clayton and Broyles (along with Saunders and Iglesias), who were great small/quick type receivers similar to Welker, were able to have so much success at OU.

Welker would have made a bigger impact at OU than several of the 4 and 5 star guys we got who ended up not being able to run routes, catch the ball, or stay out of trouble (DeJuan Miller, Trey Metoyer, etc...).

I'm not even sure what this argument is about. Dude is walking on and will compete for a spot. Apparently we should only accept walk-ons who have offers to Bama and Ohio State.

[SicEmBaylor]

In TDRW's world, any player who isn't a 4*-5* player on consistent national championship caliber teams is absolute trash. Any player or coach who doesn't win a national championship is trash. Any school that isn't an 'old money' blue-blood program is trash.

In his world, only the absolute best players in the country would even be allowed to compete and even then only if they come from a dozen or so top universities. Everyone else should just play flag football.

[Curly Bill]

Specifically as it relates to this kid - if he wants to walk on more power to him & good luck.

My above comments were related to recruiting in general.

[Tear Down This Wall]

In TDRW's world, any player who isn't a 4*-5* player on consistent national championship caliber teams is absolute trash. Any player or coach who doesn't win a national championship is trash. Any school that isn't an 'old money' blue-blood program is trash.

In his world, only the absolute best players in the country would even be allowed to compete and even then only if they come from a dozen or so top universities. Everyone else should just play flag football.

You're almost on point. The point is Oklahoma (Alabama, Michigan, USC, etc.) don't rely on the table scraps of SMU, North Texas, etc. Over the last few recruiting periods, we've signed too many linemen - in my opinion - that didn't have have offers from great programs, but who were courted for months and years by the Houstons and North Texases of the world.

If you have to rely on 2-star players and hope like hell they work out, that's fine. But, there's no point in Oklahoma-type programs doing it.

What has happened here is an SMU/USF-caliber player has walked on to the team. It was posted here as though we'd made some significant pick up - more laughably, Jalen Saunders was brought into the conversation.

It's not a significant pick up. It's not a Jalen Saunders-type of athlete; not even close. It's nothing more than another walk-on who likely will never earn a scholarship.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Do you even watch the games? Our offense relied pretty heavily on slot receivers taking people apart with underneath passes. There was a time when Hybl was criticized by the fan base for never throwing downfield, we threw underneath so much. In 2004-2007, we became more of a power run team due to Peterson, but prior to that (and since then), we have used the short passing game as a major part of the offense.

There's a reason that guys like Clayton and Broyles (along with Saunders and Iglesias), who were great small/quick type receivers similar to Welker, were able to have so much success at OU.

Welker would have made a bigger impact at OU than several of the 4 and 5 star guys we got who ended up not being able to run routes, catch the ball, or stay out of trouble (DeJuan Miller, Trey Metoyer, etc...).

I'm not even sure what this argument is about. Dude is walking on and will compete for a spot. Apparently we should only accept walk-ons who have offers to Bama and Ohio State.

The reason Hybl was criticized was he threw to the running back too much. Q was 2nd on the team in receptions with 55 in 2001...behind tight end Trent Smith, who had 61. Top two receivers in what would have been Welker's redshirt freshmen year were the running back and tight end.

Welker only led Texas Tech in receptions his senior year.

You overblow Welker to the extreme. He didn't start his freshman year at Tech, and would have sat on the bench at OU. He'd have been behind many experienced receivers in 2001 and 2002 at OU. He might have transferred out by 2003 as well because by then Mark Clayton was already established as the go-to guy.

OU had no need for Wes Welker, and that's why he wasn't offered a scholarship. Texas Tech is always desperate for anyone; and, so, they gave Welker a shot. But, he didn't walk on and light it up from the get go.

Again, he got into two great situations - for him. He needed those systems he played in. He did a great job of doing what he did for his size. But, OU never needed him, and he wouldn't have been able to make much of a dent in the lineup had he walked on here.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

The reason Hybl was criticized was he threw to the running back too much. Q was 2nd on the team in receptions with 55 in 2001...behind tight end Trent Smith, who had 61. Top two receivers in what would have been Welker's redshirt freshmen year were the running back and tight end.

Welker only led Texas Tech in receptions his senior year.

You overblow Welker to the extreme. He didn't start his freshman year at Tech, and would have sat on the bench at OU. He'd have been behind many experienced receivers in 2001 and 2002 at OU. He might have transferred out by 2003 as well because by then Mark Clayton was already established as the go-to guy.

OU had no need for Wes Welker, and that's why he wasn't offered a scholarship. Texas Tech is always desperate for anyone; and, so, they gave Welker a shot. But, he didn't walk on and light it up from the get go.

Again, he got into two great situations - for him. He needed those systems he played in. He did a great job of doing what he did for his size. But, OU never needed him, and he wouldn't have been able to make much of a dent in the lineup had he walked on here.

Just to reset 2001,
we had a crazy number of injuries in the WR corps (clayton, mackey)
we had Josh Norman forgetting how to catch.
we had Hybl set throwing records to the RB
and then White set a record for throwing to the TE.
we had multiple long bombs to Savage and peoples
but only clayton that could work underneath
when he went down we tried it with Fagan - who was good at the WR screen and not much else

The thing about Welker is that he was a master of the option route (whereas clayton was best at the shallow cross). The option route forces you to commit 2 defenders to that area typically giving up the intermediate route. The 2 of them together would have been nasty as long as someone could run the fade/post to pull the safeties back.

It isn't that different than when the Pats set all sorts of offensive records doing that with Welker and the kid from Florida.

[SicEmBaylor]

I've always been a fan of Hybl. He deserves more credit than he gets.

[Curly Bill]

I've always been a fan of Hybl. He deserves more credit than he gets.

You're saying this as a Baylor fan right?

[SicEmBaylor]

You're saying this as a Baylor fan right?

No. This is the OU side of me speaking.

[Curly Bill]

No. This is the OU side of me speaking.

Hmmmmm....Well, to each their own I guess.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Hmmmmm....Well, to each their own I guess.

He'd be an upgrade over what we have now

[KantoSooner]

Well, certainly over what we had last year. I'm hoping all of them are MUCH improved this year.
And, although it would take some doing, sometimes sports works that way: you try and fail at something for what seems like forever and then it suddenly starts to work.

[SicEmBaylor]

He'd be an upgrade over what we have now

Conversely, I loathed Landry. Not as a person -- he seems to be a fine upstanding man...but as a player? Christ.

[SicEmBaylor]

OU hasn't had a truly great QB since Bradford.

[Eielson]

Conversely, I loathed Landry. Not as a person -- he seems to be a fine upstanding man...but as a player? Christ.

You want Hybl, but not Landry?

[KantoSooner]

Conversely, I loathed Landry. Not as a person -- he seems to be a fine upstanding man...but as a player? Christ.
Can't say I loathed him, even as a player. But frustrated? Oh yes. The man was gifted beyond measure. Ask me to bet on who could put a football into a 5 gallon bucket, moving, 70 yards away, guarded by some athletic freak...and I'd bet on Landry Jones.
Ask me if I'd take that same bet if we added that he would be ''rushed' by two Brownie Scouts? Not with my own money.

[SicEmBaylor]

You want Hybl, but not Landry?
Not exactly. I'm just judging each in the context of the time they played. Head to head, Landry is more talented.

Can't say I loathed him, even as a player. But frustrated? Oh yes. The man was gifted beyond measure. Ask me to bet on who could put a football into a 5 gallon bucket, moving, 70 yards away, guarded by some athletic freak...and I'd bet on Landry Jones.
Ask me if I'd take that same bet if we added that he would be ''rushed' by two Brownie Scouts? Not with my own money.

Landry had oodles of talent, but he lacked that killer instinct. The guy looked like a wet blanket on the sideline. He just didn't have that commanding presence/leadership in those games when his raw talent alone wasn't enough to win.

[Curly Bill]

He'd be an upgrade over what we have now

No question about that!

But that speaks to how bad we are at the position right now, not how good Hybl was.

[Eielson]

Landry was a frustratingly up and down, but I don't think Heupel/Norvell did him any favors past his sophomore year. Norvell had too many WR corps that were 1-WR deep. I think we'd have a much better opinion of Landry had Broyles not went down, and had he not been thrust in the unenviable and unexpected position of replacing a Heisman trophy winner mid-season with his red-zone target already down for the year.

I agree that Bradford isn't truly great, but I think Bradford and RG3 might be about the only truly great Big XII QB's in the last decade or so. That's totally off of the top of my head, and I'm tired, so I may end up emphatically rescinding that statement.

[Eielson]

I'm also going to strongly disagree with the lack of killer instinct statement. His back-to-back against WVU and OSU was one of the gutsiest performances I've ever seen, and it wasn't just the stats. It was unreal.

http://espn.go.com/ncf/recap?id=323220277

http://espn.go.com/ncf/recap?id=323290201

[SoonerorLater]

You're almost on point. The point is Oklahoma (Alabama, Michigan, USC, etc.) don't rely on the table scraps of SMU, North Texas, etc. Over the last few recruiting periods, we've signed too many linemen - in my opinion - that didn't have have offers from great programs, but who were courted for months and years by the Houstons and North Texases of the world.

If you have to rely on 2-star players and hope like hell they work out, that's fine. But, there's no point in Oklahoma-type programs doing it.

What has happened here is an SMU/USF-caliber player has walked on to the team. It was posted here as though we'd made some significant pick up - more laughably, Jalen Saunders was brought into the conversation.

It's not a significant pick up. It's not a Jalen Saunders-type of athlete; not even close. It's nothing more than another walk-on who likely will never earn a scholarship.

OU isn't 'relying' on 2*players. A coaching staff would be remiss not to take the opportunity to add a walk-on that might very well be a valuable asset. It's low risk / high reward. If the coaching staff did as you suggested guys like Lane Johnson (NFL Draft Round: 1 / Pick 4) or Aaron Ripkowski (NFL Draft 2015 Round 6 / Pick 206) would never have seen the light of day at OU. Those guys weren't even considered good enough to be offered by the SMU's or New Mexico States.

[KantoSooner]

Don't worry. You're right, he's wrong. OU had a highly ranked class last year...and for many years. We are not relying on no names.

[graphster]

Hybl was gutsy and put everything on the line. I still remember him hanging in the pocket and taking shot after shot against K-State in 2001. Landry never really gave you that type of feel. I remember a few times when he would even slide or go out of bounds 2 yards short of the first down on third down.

But if White doesn't get hurt in 2002, Hybl doesn't get the chance to redeem himself and probably isn't remembered the same way. People hated him during the 2001 season, and a lot of folks still feel like OU could have played for another NC if White doesn't blow out a knee in Lincoln.

[graphster]

The reason Hybl was criticized was he threw to the running back too much. Q was 2nd on the team in receptions with 55 in 2001...behind tight end Trent Smith, who had 61. Top two receivers in what would have been Welker's redshirt freshmen year were the running back and tight end.

Welker only led Texas Tech in receptions his senior year.

You overblow Welker to the extreme. He didn't start his freshman year at Tech, and would have sat on the bench at OU. He'd have been behind many experienced receivers in 2001 and 2002 at OU. He might have transferred out by 2003 as well because by then Mark Clayton was already established as the go-to guy.

OU had no need for Wes Welker, and that's why he wasn't offered a scholarship. Texas Tech is always desperate for anyone; and, so, they gave Welker a shot. But, he didn't walk on and light it up from the get go.

Again, he got into two great situations - for him. He needed those systems he played in. He did a great job of doing what he did for his size. But, OU never needed him, and he wouldn't have been able to make much of a dent in the lineup had he walked on here.

I agree that we were pretty stacked at WR from 2001-2004, but still feel like Welker would have made it onto the field. And the fact is that we aren't anywhere near that stacked at WR right now.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I agree that we were pretty stacked at WR from 2001-2004, but still feel like Welker would have made it onto the field. And the fact is that we aren't anywhere near that stacked at WR right now.

First of all, thank you for using your brain.

Second, that's exactly what I've said all along. He'd have seen the field here, but not near as much as he did at Texas Tech. He'd have never been the main target here. Mangino ran a different offense than Leach. That is, he ran an offense that gave us Big 12 championships and a national title.

Leach, of course, threw the ball a ton, and Welker was the beneficiary in that offense at that school. That was the right school for Welker; OU wasn't. And, yet, he still only led Tech in receptions once. And, like all Leach teams, Tech never sniffed a championship while Welker was there. His final two seasons, in fact, OU crushed Tech...as should happen every season if Stoops and his coaching staff have their heads pulled out of their as*ses.

Back then, we were about winning championships, not rewriting passing and receiving records. Here, Welker would have been a 30-40 reception guy along the lines of a Will Peoples, Brandon Jones, or Jejuan Rankin during that time period.

Good luck often comes to hard workers; and, that's the story of Wes Welker. His hard work paid off at a place that could give him more of a spotlight in college, Texas Tech. When he went pro, he took the long route, but was given the ultimate opportunity when he went to New England from Miami.

The Patriots ran a perfect offense to plug guys in and out. Brady has been the mainstay with the Pats; but, they've had a slew of receivers over the years. It's been Brady and that system that has made temporary stars out of many average to above average receivers.

David Patten, Troy Brown, Deion Branch, David Givens, Reche Caldwell, Julian Edelman along with Welker all led New England in receptions during Brady's career. It has never been a Dallas Cowboy Triplets-type of thing up there. The receivers come and go, get plugged in, think they deserve more money, and then get cut loose. The ownership and coaches know the deal is Brady. With the type of offense they run, they've been able to plug guys in at receivers - and, at running back as well - and still do well year in and year out.

Welker, for sure, had a nice run with the Pats. But, he was not the backbone of the deal. They won championship before and after him. He was just another guy they plugged in for awhile until money became and issue. Then, he was cut loose...and Julian Edelman stepped in and did the same thing Welker had done before...and Caldwell...and Givens...and Branch...and Brown...and Patten.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

First of all, thank you for using your brain.

Second, that's exactly what I've said all along. He'd have seen the field here, but not near as much as he did at Texas Tech. He'd have never been the main target here. Mangino ran a different offense than Leach. That is, he ran an offense that gave us Big 12 championships and a national title.

Leach, of course, threw the ball a ton, and Welker was the beneficiary in that offense at that school. That was the right school for Welker; OU wasn't. And, yet, he still only led the team in receptions once.

Back then, we were about winning championships, not rewriting passing and receiving records. Here, Welker would have been a 30-40 reception guy along the lines of a Will Peoples, Brandon Jones, or Jejuan Rankin.

Good luck often comes to hard workers; and, that's the story of Wes Welker. His hard work paid off at a place that could give him more of a spotlight in college, Texas Tech. When he went pro, he took the long route, but was given the ultimate opportunity when he went to New England from Miami.

The Patriots ran a perfect offense to plug guys in and out. Brady has been the mainstay with the Pats; but, they've had a slew of receivers over the years. It's been Brady and that system that has made temporary stars out of many average to above average receivers.

David Patten, Troy Brown, Deion Branch, David Givens, Reche Caldwell, Julian Edelman along with Welker all led New England in receptions during Brady's career. It has never been a Dallas Cowboy Triplets-type of thing up there. The receivers come and go, get plugged in, think they deserve more money, and then get cut loose. The ownership and coaches know the deal is Brady. With the type of offense they run, they've been able to plug guys in at receivers - and, at running back as well - and still do well year in and year out.

Welker, for sure, had a nice run with the Pats. But, he was not the backbone of the deal. They won championship before and after him. He was just another guy they plugged in for awhile until money became and issue. Then, he was cut loose...and Julian Edelman stepped in and did the same thing Welker had done before...and Caldwell...and Givens...and Branch...and Brown...and Patten.

Most of his career would have been under Long, not Mangino as he was the same class as Clayton. I think that he and Clayton both would have been in the 75 catch range because he would have fulfilled a crazy critical role in the offense -> getting the 1st down on 2nd and 3rd and 5.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Most of his career would have been under Long, not Mangino as he was the same class as Clayton. I think that he and Clayton both would have been in the 75 catch range because he would have fulfilled a crazy critical role in the offense -> getting the 1st down on 2nd and 3rd and 5.

Good point on Mangino versus Long. Mangino 2000-2001, Long would have been 2002-04.

Leading receivers in 2002, the Rose Bowl season: Trent Smith with 46, Will Peoples with 39. That was the season Q went off for 1,800+ yards rushing. Given Q's season and no receiver getting over 40 catches, that surely wouldn't have been a year that Welker would have exploded.

Over at Texas Tech, however, Welker became one of the main focuses of the offense in 2002, finishing second in receptions for the Red Raiders.

That's what I'm saying. His opportunities here would not have been the same here as they were there.

In 2003, what happens? Mark Clayton emerges at OU, leads the team in receptions; Welker, in his senior year, finally leads Texas Tech in receptions.

In 2004, Clayton again is the man for OU. Welker was sitting on the benches of San Diego and Miami in the NFL that season. No catches, but he had his foot in the door.

So, again, Tech was the right place for Welker. OU had guys in place and for what would have been most of his OU career, the OU's leading receivers was tight end Trent Smith.

As it happens, Smith and Clayton also played in the NFL. So, it's not as though we had a collection of stiffs on campus that Welker would have run circles around - as a walk on.

What we had worked for us,and worked to a championship caliber. Welker helped Tech do what their main goal is - just get to a bowl game. He caught enough to get a free agent pass to the NFL. He made the best of that. Congrats to him.

[SicEmBaylor]

So, just to be clear, how is OU at WR in general? Setting this kid aside for a moment...

[SicEmBaylor]

Fun bit of trivia: Does anyone know who scouted and recruited Welker to Texas Tech?

HINT: It was Art Briles.

[BoulderSooner79]

I still can't accept Welker as just a system guy or just a hard working/over achiever. That guy had both talent and skills. Tech was certainly a good fit for him at the college level, but he would have done fine at OU too - he would have won a starting spot. Brady certainly makes his receivers look good, but they were noticeably less effective when he was out of the line-up while he was in his prime. He was a master at finding space in a zone and was stocky and strong enough to beat press coverage - he was a buzz saw of swim moves and hand fighting that wore defenders out. And if they got too cocky in tight man coverage, he would get behind them. Of course, once he ruptured the ACL and had a decade of wear behind him, he got too slow and expensive - happens to all players. He also held or was tied with the NCAA record for punt returns for TDs and was a good returner in the NFL too, so he was plenty athletic (again, in his prime).

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Fun bit of trivia: Does anyone know who scouted and recruited Welker to Texas Tech?

HINT: It was Art Briles.

OU scouted him and wanted him to walk on as they couldn't give out 6 schollies. When Leach left for TTech, Welker was his first offer.

[SicEmBaylor]

OU scouted him and wanted him to walk on as they couldn't give out 6 schollies. When Leach left for TTech, Welker was his first offer.

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nfl/columns/story?columnist=macmullan_jackie&id=6006220


Despite leading Heritage Hall to a Class 2A Oklahoma state championship and compiling 3,235 career rushing yards, 2,551 career receiving yards and 90 touchdowns, not one major college program offered Wes Welker a scholarship before the official signing day.

Tulsa invited him for a visit, encouraged him to try on one of its shiny new helmets, then reversed direction the following morning after it signed another bigger, stronger, faster recruit, dismissing Welker vaguely with, "We'll get back to you."
----------------------------

Coach Warner sent tapes across the country, imploring schools to look at Welker's unique skill set. Texas Tech coach Mike Leach was intrigued, but wondered about Welker's lack of size, speed and strength.


"We almost missed him, too," Leach said.

The Texas Tech coaches were split. Leach wanted to give the kid a shot. So did running backs coach Art Briles.

"To me, it was a no-brainer," Briles said. "On tape you watched him move from Point A to Point B with so much confidence, effort and intensity. He could do it all."

When Lenny Walls opted to attend Boston College instead of Tech, Welker was in. The Natural ran back an 80-yard punt against Texas A&M and broke one against Texas in Lubbock.

"Best practice player I've ever seen," said Briles, now the head coach at Baylor. "He doesn't take a step on the field unless it's full speed."

I think this should be chalked up as an OU recruiting failure. Leach had reservations; Briles did not. If I were another coach in Texas, I'd send someone to secretly follow Briles around as he recruits QBs and WRs like a bloodhound.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nfl/columns/story?columnist=macmullan_jackie&id=6006220
I think this should be chalked up as an OU recruiting failure. Leach had reservations; Briles did not. If I were another coach in Texas, I'd send someone to secretly follow Briles around as he recruits QBs and WRs like a bloodhound.

Sort of, Steve Spurrier Jr wanted him badly. The problem was you had Ataleo Ford and Antonio Perkins who were higher rated. He still almost got to take him, but they had this 5* guy commit that took his scholarship. The scholarship ended up going to Jamar Mozee.

We have a history of getting some pretty good players as fallback plans.

[graphster]

First of all, thank you for using your brain.

Second, that's exactly what I've said all along. He'd have seen the field here, but not near as much as he did at Texas Tech. He'd have never been the main target here. Mangino ran a different offense than Leach. That is, he ran an offense that gave us Big 12 championships and a national title.
I agree that he probably wouldn't have been the main target during those years, but he still could have helped us out a lot in certain situations. Outside of Clayton and Rankins, we didn't have a lot of guys who were great in the slot, in terms of quickness, ability to catch in traffic, and precise route running. The other guys we had were more outside WR types who were better at stretching the field vertically. And if we got another player of similar caliber this year, that player could make a big impact for us in the next few years, particularly as a third or fourth receiver when we spread the field.

Welker benefited from the systems he's been in, but he's also come to be the standard bearer for what it means to be a good slot receiver in the NFL. Now whenever people talk about that players at that position, they almost always compare them to Welker.

[cvsooner]

Sort of, Steve Spurrier Jr wanted him badly. The problem was you had Ataleo Ford and Antonio Perkins who were higher rated. He still almost got to take him, but they had this 5* guy commit that took his scholarship. The scholarship ended up going to Jamar Mozee.

We have a history of getting some pretty good players as fallback plans.

Wow, and that Jamar Mozee wound up being one of the greatest...oh, wait, he wasn't?

Who? Never heard of him.

[SoonerMarkVA]

Landry had oodles of talent, but he lacked that killer instinct. The guy looked like a wet blanket on the sideline. He just didn't have that commanding presence/leadership in those games when his raw talent alone wasn't enough to win.

Yeah, neither did Heupel.

But what Heupel had (that Landry IMO lacked) was the brains for the game. Heup was a mental master of the field, and Landry was--well, not. Don't know whether he was book smart, but he definitely didn't look mentally sharp, or tough, on the field.

[SicEmBaylor]

Yeah, neither did Heupel.

But what Heupel had (that Landry IMO lacked) was the brains for the game. Heup was a mental master of the field, and Landry was--well, not. Don't know whether he was book smart, but he definitely didn't look mentally sharp, or tough, on the field.

That reminds me somewhat of Shawn Bell. Of course, there is no comparison between Heupel and Bell but nonetheless...

Bell was definitely not the most gifted QB in the world, and he probably shouldn't have been at he helm of a BCS program; however, he was incredibly sharp. He also commanded that offense and had the respect of the team -- he oozed leadership. That was a guy who made the most of what little talent he had and what little talent was around him, and he was only a TD away from taking Baylor to its first bowl game. Injuries and bone-headed coaching decisions gimped him.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I agree that he probably wouldn't have been the main target during those years, but he still could have helped us out a lot in certain situations. Outside of Clayton and Rankins, we didn't have a lot of guys who were great in the slot, in terms of quickness, ability to catch in traffic, and precise route running. The other guys we had were more outside WR types who were better at stretching the field vertically. And if we got another player of similar caliber this year, that player could make a big impact for us in the next few years, particularly as a third or fourth receiver when we spread the field.

Welker benefited from the systems he's been in, but he's also come to be the standard bearer for what it means to be a good slot receiver in the NFL. Now whenever people talk about that players at that position, they almost always compare them to Welker.

Rankins and Peoples were good in the slot. We also had a bigger-bodied slot guy in 2000 and 2001 named Josh Norman, a running back Blake had recruited who had to change positions when Stoops came on board. Norman actually grew just big enough to make the San Diego Chargers as a tight end for two or three seasons. He is now the offensive coordinator over at Southern Nazarene U.

Slot receivers don't have to be as precise as outside receivers. The reason is that cornerbacks have the sideline as their ally in covering outside receiver. Inside guys have more room to move, and they are normally doing so against bigger/slower players, i.e. linebackers and safeties. If not those, then a nickel, who is generally a corner who isn't good enough to start and cover the best outside guys.

Welker would have worked into the slot rotation here. But, at the time, we also have Antonio Perkins returning punts and kickoffs- and, setting NCAA records for doing so in the process.

Again, we had plenty of talent here, which is why Welker - wisely - chose to take a scholarship offer to Tech. The odds of him beating out any of the more seasoned receivers here were not great, and he likely wouldn't have beat out Perkins as a return guy either.

[Tear Down This Wall]

For those who had forgotten about Josh Norman, here a little bit from the upset of Nebraska:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfkEtfAX2vg

[Tear Down This Wall]

For those who had forgotten about Josh Norman, here a little bit from the upset of Nebraska:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfkEtfAX2vg

Did the same kind of stuff Welker did at Tech...he just did it at 6'3", 230-240 pounds! Those were some great athletes we had on those early Stoops' squads.

Hands down, that one probably the most exciting regular season Sooner game we ever attended. Josh Norman was a key part of that win and those early teams.

[SicEmBaylor]

Did the same kind of stuff Welker did at Tech...he just did it at 6'3", 230-240 pounds! Those were some great athletes we had on those early Stoops' squads.

Hands down, that one probably the most exciting regular season Sooner game we ever attended. Josh Norman was a key part of that win and those early teams.

I never understand why video looks so f'n old after 5+ years. I remember watching games in 2000, and I don't recall them looking any different on TV or in person than they do now. But look at some video from around that time, and that **** looks like it was filmed 40 years ago.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I never understand why video looks so f'n old after 5+ years. I remember watching games in 2000, and I don't recall them looking any different on TV or in person than they do now. But look at some video from around that time, and that **** looks like it was filmed 40 years ago.

Even though it doesn't seem very long ago, I think this is because people still used VCRs to record things in the early-to-mid 00s. Not sure when the first DVRs were available. But, I think the older stuff must be transferred over from VHS tapes.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Welker would have worked into the slot rotation here. But, at the time, we also have Antonio Perkins returning punts and kickoffs- and, setting NCAA records for doing so in the process.

I keep going back to your timing on this. Perkins didn't return punts until 2002. In 2000, we had Thatcher. In 2001, we had Fagan, Brandon Jones, Mackey, Savage, and someone else back there. Welker was a much better overall punt returner than Perkins was. Welker tended to get 8-10 yards every time whereas Perkins was 0 or 40. They both had the same number of TDs, but I think Welkers avg was slightly higher (I know his standard deviation was much lower).

As for Norman, he was great in 2000, but in 2001 he must have had 20 drops. His role was diminished quite a bit over the year because he couldn't hang onto the ball.

On the slot receiver size thing - running the option route is an art. It takes a degree of elusiveness to get the defender to overcommit so that you can bounce the other way and be wide open. I'm not saying that big guys can't do this, but it is rare that a team has enough talent at TE to allow them to flex out and run the route.

Lastly, the weirdest threads get lots of responses to get us to kickoff ;)

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I never understand why video looks so f'n old after 5+ years. I remember watching games in 2000, and I don't recall them looking any different on TV or in person than they do now. But look at some video from around that time, and that **** looks like it was filmed 40 years ago.

Low frame rate cameras mixed with high frame rate compression = ugh

[Tear Down This Wall]

I keep going back to your timing on this. Perkins didn't return punts until 2002. In 2000, we had Thatcher. In 2001, we had Fagan, Brandon Jones, Mackey, Savage, and someone else back there. Welker was a much better overall punt returner than Perkins was. Welker tended to get 8-10 yards every time whereas Perkins was 0 or 40. They both had the same number of TDs, but I think Welkers avg was slightly higher (I know his standard deviation was much lower).

As for Norman, he was great in 2000, but in 2001 he must have had 20 drops. His role was diminished quite a bit over the year because he couldn't hang onto the ball.

On the slot receiver size thing - running the option route is an art. It takes a degree of elusiveness to get the defender to overcommit so that you can bounce the other way and be wide open. I'm not saying that big guys can't do this, but it is rare that a team has enough talent at TE to allow them to flex out and run the route.

Lastly, the weirdest threads get lots of responses to get us to kickoff ;)

Agree on the threads.

But, give me Perkins over Welker on punt returns. Perkins got his eight TDs on 113 returns; Welker got his eight on 152 returns. Perkins career average per return was 12.8; Welker's was 11.5.

We had plenty of guys in the slot when Welker would have walked on. My question is, would he have stayed? Like Perkins, he'd have likely redshirted in 2000. The 2001 season was Stoops' greatest defense wasted by an offense that couldn't run well or pass well. Not sure Welker could have changed that because we already had some pretty good slot guys.

I doubt he'd have displaced senior Josh Norman in 2001. In 2002, Q was running like crazy. Where would that have left Welker - three years out of high school, two years to go, and still not starting.

Tech was perfect for him. He didn't start there from the get-go either. But, at least they were able to get him on the field sooner than OU could have. Tech needed bodies in the switch from Spike Dykes' run-first roster to Leach's high school spread game. So, Welker was in the right place at the right time. Instead of sitting in Norman, he was able to get on the field at Tech.

[graphster]

The real problem is that, at least the last couple of years, we have not had anywhere near the depth at WR that we used to. We've usually had one or two guys who could have started on any of those early 2000s teams, but no depth behind them. Welker might not have broken into the starting lineup for those early 2000s teams, but we sure could have used somebody like that last year.

[Tear Down This Wall]

The real problem is that, at least the last couple of years, we have not had anywhere near the depth at WR that we used to. We've usually had one or two guys who could have started on any of those early 2000s teams, but no depth behind them. Welker might not have broken into the starting lineup for those early 2000s teams, but we sure could have used somebody like that last year.

What we've needed is a dedicated WR coach. Stoops had Norvell splitting his time as co-offensive coordinator and WR coach. Same problem we had with QBs and Heupel.

Unfortunately, he's done the same thing with Leach, Jr., given him QB and coordinator duties. He's also taken his best offensive coach, Cale Gundy, and moved him to the laughably titled "inside receivers" coach.

Gundy has always had his guys ready to go - scholarship or walk-on, freshman or senior, he had the RB position ready. And, so, Stoops moves him to a joke position for this high school offense we are going to run this season.

Stupid.

[graphster]

I think Cale moved because he saw it as an opportunity for career advancement. People rarely go from RB coach to OC. For whatever reason, it tends to be assistant coaches associated with the passing game or OL coaches. Agree that he did a great job where he was, and that the other positions (especially QB) struggled because people divided attention. But then there are other instances where OCs, or even HCs, coach a position and it works out, so maybe Riley will be able to handle it in a way that Heupel couldn't.

Disagree, however, that Inside WR is a "joke" position. The passing game is increasingly dominated at both the college and NFL levels, by slot receivers and tight ends who flex out to the slot and run pass routes. My preference would have been to hire a new coach for this position and to leave Gundy at RBs, but maybe that wasn't possible.

[BoulderSooner79]

Agree that Cale needed to move if career advancement is high on his list. He has stayed too long in one role already from that point of view. Nothing wrong with sticking at one position and doing a great job as long as he's satisfied to make that a career - the pay is pretty darn good. But most guys eventually look to the next rung up on the ladder or just get bored doing the same thing.

[Tear Down This Wall]

How is "inside receiver" higher on the ladder than pumping out the type of runners Cale did at RB coach whether they were unheralded (like Q), superstars from day one (like AD), JUCO's (like Damien Williams), walk-ons (like Dominique Williams), or positions switchers (like Allen Patrick).

After all of that and more, Gundy isn't proven until he switches to "inside receivers?" Do we skip the fact that Gundy coached the fullbacks we've produced for the NFL along with the stream of running backs?

Give me a break.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Let's just cut to the chase - instead of demoting Gundy to "inside receivers," Stoops should have cut Gundy a check for the amount of half his personal assets. Without Gundy keeping his players ready, Stoops wouldn't have accomplished what he has.

Gundy is the only coach - on the offensive side of the ball - he hasn't had to run off because of ineptitude.

"Inside Receiver Coach." May as well just put the word p*ssy next to his picture in the media guide.

[BoulderSooner79]

I have no opinion on the value of inside receiver coach vs. RB coach. I'm just saying that most organizations move people in leadership positions around before promoting them. They want to know if a guy can succeed with a different type of assignment with different types of players (or employees) reporting to them. In coaching, that often means switching to different position assignments on the same team or more often, moving to a different team. I don't know the how this came about at OU. It could be Cale was perfectly happy at RB coach and Stoops has messed up by moving him. But if Cale requested this in order to broaden his resume for a future coordinator role, I think he has earned that right.