Okay Sicem, expound on the Removal of Confederate Flag

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

at the capital in South Carolina, and all that is associated with that, please. I know that subject is of high interest to you. K thnx.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Is SicEm not around? I really would be interested in his comments and analysis of what happened there.

[Soonerjeepman]

guess there is a movement now ....was on FB, black kids taking down flags from houses...someone is going to get shot. That'll stir the pot real well....

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

guess there is a movement now ....was on FB, black kids taking down flags from houses...someone is going to get shot. That'll stir the pot real well....What's happening?! Electing a black president was supposed to calm all waters...wait, WHAT!

[Since71ASooner4Life]

I'm actually siding with the left on this issue (I guess our friend Serenity should commend me for going rogue from the conservative mutual admiration society that he labels you for voicing agreement with someone on a given topic).

I'm not from the south and cant speak to the significance of that flag in the period since 1867. But I'm rather sure that the first thought that comes to anyone when reference is made to "the confederate states" is the civil war and why it was fought. It is one thing to acknowledge the bravery and valor of one's ancestors 150 years ago when they gave their military service of that era, regardless of how the cause they fought for is judged today. But I have big doubts that individual's personal honoring of such ancestors merits the establishment of large publicly displayed monument. I'm quite proud of my 4X great grandfather German immigrant stone carver who came to this country and establish the US presence that his decedents have benefits from - but I'm content to adorn my home with remembrances of him, and feel no compulsion to erect a public commemorative.

Some of his carvings exist today in churches and cemeteries. I would take issue with someone demanding that they be taken down, because there is no justification to do so. There were millions of Germans including relatives of mine who fought and died in WWII, and did so under defense of the flag of their country. As many of these folks had no choice but to join the German army, it is quite justifiable to honor their service as well - regardless how the cause they fought for is judged today. But no reasonable person would argue to fly the Swastika in Germany or anywhere else in their honor, because of the horrible remembrance it brings to Jews and others who suffered.

Why then do people feel compelled to argue that the confederate flag should be proudly flown, when it is the symbol of a dark chapter in our history, which can be taken no other way than offensively by Blacks? Step into the shoes of a Black person, and ask yourself what that flag means to you - honor of the fallen confederate soldiers, or glorification of a tragic period and existence for their ancestors. I'm the last person on earth to say take that flag down to appease the liberals and their reaction to the shooting last month. That flag should have come down decades ago, just like the Swastika did, because of its legitimately offensive symbolic meaning to so many millions of people. I don't advocate Obama's "persecute the white man" strategy as a means for improving racial relations, and neither do I believe in keeping alive a painful reminder of the past, which can easily be interpreted as the will to not let go of that injurious past.

[olevetonahill]

Offensive or not, Its still a free country, Let Individuals who want Fly it proudly, I agree the Govt. shouldnt.

But this digging up generals and wantin to sand blast Stone mountain is Ludicrous.
Tell those who are Offended to look the other way.
Govt says its their right to stomp and burn and even wipe their asses with the US flag.
Personal freedom

[Since71ASooner4Life]

Offensive or not, Its still a free country, Let Individuals who want Fly it proudly, I agree the Govt. shouldnt.

But this digging up generals and wantin to sand blast Stone mountain is Ludicrous.
Tell those who are Offended to look the other way.
Govt says its their right to stomp and burn and even wipe their asses with the US flag.
Personal freedom

Its a delicate issue where personal freedom rubs up against the interests of the masses. Maximize the rights and freedoms of every individual without any restraint and you have chaos I tend to judge things more by what the law terms "reasonable man's standards" than the pure letter of the law. I guess even that is flawed, because typically I'm the reasonable man who's standards are being applied :>)

In my profession it my duty to find compromises that somehow bring together two corporations with opposing wills. I dig in on the big important issues, and surrender on the little ones when I see the other side reciprocating. Sometimes it is a not obvious to me what the other side expresses to be a big issue, but when its something I categorize as a small issue, then it becomes a opportunity.

Before he destroyed the opportunity, the knowledge that 10's of millions of Whites had voted for a black candidate was the kind of scenario I'm describing. They voted for him because they wanted to and it wasn't a sacrifice - but I think it went a long way with Blacks at the time seeing proof that the White population wasn't what Al Sharpton claims - he an Jesse Jackson were out of business until Obama quit disguising his true intent.

In my book, there's a more to gain by saying that despite the fact that we like it, we'll take down this flag because we understand how hurtful and important it coming down it is to you, then to dig in and fight for what little value it has to me in seeing it flown.

Yes, the liberal initiative to exhume bodies and eradicate all forensic evidence of the past is as always, pure insantity

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

The insistence on taking down the Confederate flag in SC is a typical and predictable reaction by the Left, IMO. The guy who did the shootings in the church was a freakin lunatic, as are all people who do mass killings done any way(guns, bombs, knives etc) It doesn't seem to me that removing a flag is going to impact much of anything, although I agree with Since 71 that it could offend some people, because of slavery.

Nobody should be surprised that now some want to take away privately owned flags, and will do that on their own. Not to mention digging up graves and other forms of angry retribution, that will do nothing to improve conditions/race relations.

[okie52]

I'm actually siding with the left on this issue (I guess our friend Serenity should commend me for going rogue from the conservative mutual admiration society that he labels you for voicing agreement with someone on a given topic).

I'm not from the south and cant speak to the significance of that flag in the period since 1867. But I'm rather sure that the first thought that comes to anyone when reference is made to "the confederate states" is the civil war and why it was fought. It is one thing to acknowledge the bravery and valor of one's ancestors 150 years ago when they gave their military service of that era, regardless of how the cause they fought for is judged today. But I have big doubts that individual's personal honoring of such ancestors merits the establishment of large publicly displayed monument. I'm quite proud of my 4X great grandfather German immigrant stone carver who came to this country and establish the US presence that his decedents have benefits from - but I'm content to adorn my home with remembrances of him, and feel no compulsion to erect a public commemorative.

Some of his carvings exist today in churches and cemeteries. I would take issue with someone demanding that they be taken down, because there is no justification to do so. There were millions of Germans including relatives of mine who fought and died in WWII, and did so under defense of the flag of their country. As many of these folks had no choice but to join the German army, it is quite justifiable to honor their service as well - regardless how the cause they fought for is judged today. But no reasonable person would argue to fly the Swastika in Germany or anywhere else in their honor, because of the horrible remembrance it brings to Jews and others who suffered.

Why then do people feel compelled to argue that the confederate flag should be proudly flown, when it is the symbol of a dark chapter in our history, which can be taken no other way than offensively by Blacks? Step into the shoes of a Black person, and ask yourself what that flag means to you - honor of the fallen confederate soldiers, or glorification of a tragic period and existence for their ancestors. I'm the last person on earth to say take that flag down to appease the liberals and their reaction to the shooting last month. That flag should have come down decades ago, just like the Swastika did, because of its legitimately offensive symbolic meaning to so many millions of people. I don't advocate Obama's "persecute the white man" strategy as a means for improving racial relations, and neither do I believe in keeping alive a painful reminder of the past, which can easily be interpreted as the will to not let go of that injurious past.


As an aside, the leader of the confederate flag rally in Durant was Black.

[FaninAma]

I'm not from the south and cant speak to the significance of that flag

That's all you needed to type. The rest of your post is just noise.

[Curly Bill]

I've never owned a Confederate battle flag in my life, I've never wanted to own a Confederate battle flag, and I don't think I've ever owned anything with the Confederate battle flag on it. However, now that the PC Nazis don't think I should be allowed to own or display a Confederate battle flag I very much want one, and will in fact likely be purchasing one in the near future.

[Since71ASooner4Life]

That's all you needed to type. The rest of your post is just noise.

I suspect there are some Blacks who might think otherwise.

BTW, if you're from Oklahoma and I'm from southern Ohio, it looks like neither of us is from the south and actually grew up about equidistant from the confederate territories. That being the case I guess neither of us ought to speak with too much authority in our words on this topic.

[Curly Bill]

I suspect there are some Blacks who might think otherwise.

BTW, if you're from Oklahoma and I'm from southern Ohio, it looks like neither of us is from the south and actually grew up about equidistant from the confederate territories. That being the case I guess neither of us ought to speak with too much authority in our words on this topic.

The last Confederate General to surrender was Stand Watie. Want to guess where he's from?

Hint: It wasn't southern Ohio.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Ah, the Stand Watie Owls little league baseball team. Near in my heart to the Immaculate Conception Copperheads.(OKC in the late 1950's)

[SicEmBaylor]

@Rush

As you know, I'm a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. Before that, I grew up in the Children of the Confederacy (the youth auxiliary organization for the United Daughters of the Confederacy) and served as the Stand Waite Chapter President, Oklahoma Division President, and Editor-General (national office). My interest in the conflict is almost entirely political rather than marshal in nature.

I believe the South was on firm Constitutional and legal grounds for secession. I Believe the right to do so is enshrined in our Declaration of Independence. I believe that states, having created and freely entered into union, are free to leave it as well. As a CofC alumnus and SCV member, it is and has always been my duty to protect and defend the honorable name of my Confederate ancestors and the symbols of that cause.

One such symbol is the Confederate battle flag. The battle flag, as opposed to the three national flags of the Confederate States of America, represented the individual soldiers. It represented their resistance against Union tyranny. It represented the honorable defense of their families, their homes, their towns, and their states from invasion and some of the worst war crimes ever perpetuated on a civilian population by the United States military.

To reduce those symbols to symbols of slavery and desecrate Confederate monuments is beyond repugnant. It lacks all historical context and accuracy while representing the absolute worst of political expediency and correctness. Those arguing against its display know as much about what the Confederate flag stands for as I know about physics.

Unfortunately, our national leaders have chosen to take the position of racists and white supremacists who attempt to re-define and dishonor the flag of our ancestors. They tacitly do so by accepting the racist argument that the flag is, in fact, a symbol of racism. The honorable thing to do would have been to refuse to accept the racist claim to the flag and instead stand on the side of Confederate heritage; which, by the way, I consider to be inseparably linked to conservative heritage.

There have been many prominent Republicans that I have liked in the past which have absolutely disappointed me to the point that I consider it an unforgivable betrayal. Governor Haley is a good example of this. I will never ever support a Republican for public office that was personally instrumental in the removal or destruction of Confederate symbols. Never. In fact, I would work myself to the grave on a primary opposition campaign to any Republican who has acted to remove Confederate symbols or heritage.

I consider their actions to be nothing short of treacherous treason.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Eloquent as always, and not a surprise in any way. I contend that even if one thinks there's ANY merit in any detraction of the confederate flag because of any association with slavery, at best it is a colossal waste of time and energy to do so. In fact I believe it's actually counterproductive to promoting better living conditions and inter-racial relationships in the country.

I don't believe Nicki Haley and the legislature had ANY choice but to do it, though. The Left has a stranglehold on the government, and can bully just about anything they want. There's a storm a-brewing.

[Since71ASooner4Life]

The last Confederate General to surrender was Stand Watie. Want to guess where he's from?

Hint: It wasn't southern Ohio.


OK I'll assume your right and acknowledge I'm not up on that piece of history as you are. But in any case, the good general wasn't part of the conversation, nor changing the irony in the dismissive comments sent my direction.

[SicEmBaylor]

The last Confederate General to surrender was Stand Watie. Want to guess where he's from?

Hint: It wasn't southern Ohio.

Not to mention the fact that all five Civilized Tribes were heavily invested in the Confederacy, the last Confederate General to surrender was Watie, and the tribes were granted delegates to the Confederate Congress.

Make no mistake -- this would be a Confederate state today.

[Curly Bill]

Not to mention the fact that all five Civilized Tribes were heavily invested in the Confederacy, the last Confederate General to surrender was Watie, and the tribes were granted delegates to the Confederate Congress.

Make no mistake -- this would be a Confederate state today.

Exactly!!!

[Serenity Now]

Not to mention the fact that all five Civilized Tribes were heavily invested in the Confederacy, the last Confederate General to surrender was Watie, and the tribes were granted delegates to the Confederate Congress.

Make no mistake -- this would be a Confederate state today.
Cherokee chief John Ross was in Washington, D.C. for sometime until the war ended. Saying that the Cherokees were firmly in one camp is wrong regardless of stand Waties role. Also, the creeks have a Large mural in their council house commemorating the brave creeks who marshaled most of the nation at the time to Kansa to escape from comnfederate troops moving their way.

I respect people like you who see the flag as a historic symbol. However, 99% of the yocels I see waiving it are not like you. I do think it's silly to sully anything as small as the general lee and the Dukes over this. However, it's wrong that SC couldn't take their flag to half mast because it had a lock on it by law.

[Curly Bill]

Cherokee chief John Ross was in Washington, D.C. for sometime until the war ended. Saying that the Cherokees were firmly in one camp is wrong regardless of stand Waties role. Also, the creeks have a Large mural in their council house commemorating the brave creeks who marshaled most of the nation at the time to Kansa to escape from comnfederate troops moving their way.

I respect people like you who see the flag as a historic symbol. However, 99% of the yocels I see waiving it are not like you. I do think it's silly to sully anything as small as the general lee and the Dukes over this. However, it's wrong that SC couldn't take their flag to half mast because it had a lock on it by law.

You got any data on that? Of course you don't, so that means you're just talking sh*t.

[Serenity Now]

You got any data on that? Of course you don't, so that means you're just talking sh*t.
I call it the availability heuristic.

You're one to talk about "just talking ****".

[Curly Bill]

I call it the availability heuristic.

You're one to talk about "just talking ****".

Naw seriously, you just make up numbers to try and prove whatever liberal rant you're on at a given time? I know that's liberal strategy 101, but that doesn't help your credibility much huh?

[Serenity Now]

Naw seriously, you just make up numbers to try and prove whatever liberal rant you're on at a given time? I know that's liberal strategy 101, but that doesn't help your credibility much huh?
I could prove that 4+4=8 and you guys wouldn't believe me.

[Curly Bill]

I could prove that 4+4=8 and you guys wouldn't believe me.

Any other straw men you'd like to throw out there?

[Breadburner]

Not to mention the fact that all five Civilized Tribes were heavily invested in the Confederacy, the last Confederate General to surrender was Watie, and the tribes were granted delegates to the Confederate Congress.

Make no mistake -- this would be a Confederate state today.

No bigger racist's in the country than native American tribes......

[Serenity Now]

Naw seriously, you just make up numbers to try and prove whatever liberal rant you're on at a given time? I know that's liberal strategy 101, but that doesn't help your credibility much huh?

It was kind of a joke. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic