Going Greek

[REDREX]

All of you free spending Liberals need to keep your eye on Greece----That's the way this Country is heading

[Serenity Now]

I'm up for some austerity measures.

[Tear Down This Wall]

All of you free spending Liberals need to keep your eye on Greece----That's the way this Country is heading

It'll be worse here because Greece doesn't have the minority populations that we have. If we ever get to the point of having to take away freebies, the lesser achieving minorities here will riot for real.

[REDREX]

I'm up for some austerity measures.---Fine where do you want to start?

[Serenity Now]

---Fine where do you want to start?

We need to go both directions. Some of those corporate tax cuts on the top end. We've got a **** ton too many folks on "disability". We need to roll some of that back. And whatever program we do the Obama phones with. And, I'm good with cutting back some other generic welfare benefits. I think we should maintain the Medicare and elderly SSI.

[REDREX]

That would not even put a dent in the problem---------We will have $27 Trillion in debt in 10 years----------Still think the Gov't "HELPS"

[badger]

There are many reasons we are far from being Greece --- we have a larger population, our country is larger also by land square footage, we have more wealth, we have more clout worldwide, we have a much higher credit rating... but that doesn't mean we should ignore the lessons Greece is teaching us, nor does it mean that a Greek default will leave the U.S. economy unblemished.

Still, its hard to not roll eyes at Greece being compared to what the U.S. is going through with its recession(s). I get that we have debt and we need to shore up our spending. However, a lot of Greek's problems are tied to the fact that they have very little control over the Euro. If they had their own currency still, they could have continued racketing up inflation forever without consequence. Pensions for everyone! ;)

[REDREX]

There are many reasons we are far from being Greece --- we have a larger population, our country is larger also by land square footage, we have more wealth, we have more clout worldwide, we have a much higher credit rating... but that doesn't mean we should ignore the lessons Greece is teaching us, nor does it mean that a Greek default will leave the U.S. economy unblemished.

Still, its hard to not roll eyes at Greece being compared to what the U.S. is going through with its recession(s). I get that we have debt and we need to shore up our spending. However, a lot of Greek's problems are tied to the fact that they have very little control over the Euro. If they had their own currency still, they could have continued racketing up inflation forever without consequence. Pensions for everyone! ;)
---So we will just keeping spending money and making promises to people that we will be unable to pay for-----Ever look at unfunded liabilities its over $75 Trillion-----That does not include the debt-----------Fix it now or it will be unfixable at some point in the future

[Serenity Now]

That would not even put a dent in the problem---------We will have $27 Trillion in debt in 10 years----------Still think the Gov't "HELPS"

Maybe we cut back on some of that military spending. Since my ideas won't work, what would you have us do?

[badger]

So we will just keeping spending money and making promises to people that we will be unable to pay for-
Pretty much, yes. It might sound dishonest or lacking integrity, but this is the government we're talking about here, where politicians will say and do what they need to elected and then say and do whatever the hell they want once in office.

[REDREX]

Maybe we cut back on some of that military spending. Since my ideas won't work, what would you have us do?---I don't mind cutting the military---cut Medicare-Medicaid----Fix Social Security-Get rid of at least 50% of all gov't agencies and most if not all the stupid Gov't welfare give-a-way or "Why work?" programs. We also need to be able to get rid of Gov't employees that do not do their job

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Authorized governmental functions: roads, highways, military, police and fire, social security and medicare.

[REDREX]

Liberal Socialism never works long term

[TAFBSooner]

Authorized governmental functions: roads, highways, military, police and fire, social security and medicare.

social security and medicare? You communist, you! (I am smiling when I say that.)

The Post Office is authorized under the Constitution, even though conservatives hate it. (I wear a big badge identifying me as a liberal, so post office workers know to give me good service. It has consistently worked for 59 years, even though my badge said "conservative" until 1989.)

Post roads are authorized, due to the foreseen need to knit the new country together. I would imagine that railroads would have been included, if that technology had been around in 1787.

[Serenity Now]

social security and medicare? You communist, you! (I am smiling when I say that.)

The Post Office is authorized under the Constitution, even though conservatives hate it. (I wear a big badge identifying me as a liberal, so post office workers know to give me good service. It has consistently worked for 59 years, even though my badge said "conservative" until 1989.)

Post roads are authorized, due to the foreseen need to knit the new country together. I would imagine that railroads would have been included, if that technology had been around in 1787.

Elder conservatives still like Social Security and Medicare. They're socialists like that. :)

I'm elder enough to be a fan of them as well.

[olevetonahill]

Elder conservatives still like Social Security and Medicare. They're socialists like that. :)

I'm elder enough to be a fan of them as well.

Not so much a Fan as we Paid into it all our lives and would like to get most of it back.

[TAFBSooner]

would like to get most of it back.

Right the hell On!

[REDREX]

Elder conservatives still like Social Security and Medicare. They're socialists like that. :)

I'm elder enough to be a fan of them as well.---Think how much money you would have if your SS money and that paid by your employer had been put in any type of investment ----------The benefits you would receive back would be much more than you will receive from SS-----What a great deal I paid money in as far back as the 70's and they are going to give it back to me---less tax in 2020 What a great deal

[Ton Loc]

---Think how much money you would have if your SS money and that paid by your employer had been put in any type of investment ----------The benefits you would receive back would be much more than you will receive from SS-----What a great deal I paid money in as far back as the 70's and they are going to give it back to me---less tax in 2020 What a great deal

We'd all be insanely rich is the easy answer. But since the easy answer is never the right answer that's probably not true. The government would screw that up in a hurry. If anything, that would have led to them wasting/stealing even more money.

[REDREX]

We'd all be insanely rich is the easy answer. But since the easy answer is never the right answer that's probably not true. The government would screw that up in a hurry. If anything, that would have led to them wasting/stealing even more money.---Nah---The Gov't runs everything well--just look at the Post office or Medicare or Healthcare web sites or or or nevermind

[Serenity Now]

Call me crazy but I think the post office does a good job.

[REDREX]

Call me crazy but I think the post office does a good job.---You need to get out more--------- http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/10/us/politics/postal-service-reports-loss-of-1-9-billion-in-2nd-quarter.html?_r=0

[badger]

Fun read on why SS won't go bankrupt:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2014/08/14/social-security-cannot-go-bankrupt/

Do all of my arguments delve into blaming old people? The first SS recipients have received far more than they ever paid in and this situation will likely continue until the system is declared insolvent. Then, SS recipients will gradually receive less and less until it's at a what's-paid-in-is-what's-given-out status.

Basically, we're headed back to a situation where older generations will rely on their children and grandchildren for care once again, rather than having enough retirement funds to fend for themselves. Quite frankly, it probably isn't such a bad thing to have families forced to work and live together once again rather than only visit the nursing home on birthdays and major holidays. ;)

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Quote Originally Posted by Serenity Now
Elder conservatives still like Social Security and Medicare. They're socialists like that.

I'm elder enough to be a fan of them as well.
Not so much a Fan as we Paid into it all our lives and would like to get most of it back.Exactly. Srsly, SN, why is it that wasn't the first thing in your mind, and why did you choose to ignore it, or did it not even enter your mind?

[Serenity Now]

---You need to get out more--------- http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/10/us/politics/postal-service-reports-loss-of-1-9-billion-in-2nd-quarter.html?_r=0

I would give me hell for linking to the nytimes. You might as well put up a link to huffpost. :)

[REDREX]

I would give me hell for linking to the nytimes. You might as well put up a link to huffpost. :)---Why ?----The Post office is not well run----Who cares where the link comes from------Your post makes no sense

[Eielson]

Call me crazy but I think the post office does a good job.

Yeah, that's what I thouth. They seem to be going downhill as of late, though.

[TAFBSooner]

There are many reasons we are far from being Greece --- we have a larger population, our country is larger also by land square footage, we have more wealth, we have more clout worldwide, we have a much higher credit rating... but that doesn't mean we should ignore the lessons Greece is teaching us, nor does it mean that a Greek default will leave the U.S. economy unblemished.

Still, its hard to not roll eyes at Greece being compared to what the U.S. is going through with its recession(s). I get that we have debt and we need to shore up our spending. However, a lot of Greek's problems are tied to the fact that they have very little control over the Euro. If they had their own currency still, they could have continued racketing up inflation forever without consequence. Pensions for everyone! ;)

"Pensions for everyone! ;)" -- You say that like it's a bad thing. Back in the '60s everybody but the DFHs had pensions.

[BoulderSooner79]

Not so much a Fan as we Paid into it all our lives and would like to get most of it back.

Egg-xactly. I have no doubt I won't get back what I paid (in current dollars with zero interest), but I'll vote to fight to get as much of it as I can.

[Serenity Now]

Yeah, that's what I thouth. They seem to be going downhill as of late, though.

They just need to increase their rates to cover costs. It's pretty incredible that you can put paper into an envelope and send it 3,000 miles in a few days for $0.49. I can drive about 4.5 miles for that amount.

[REDREX]

They just need to increase their rates to cover costs. It's pretty incredible that you can put paper into an envelope and send it 3,000 miles in a few days for $0.49. I can drive about 4.5 miles for that amount.---Wrong---The cost structure of the Post Office is awful--------I knew they would go broke when I received my first Email------Only the Gov't could have a monopoly and lose money

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Puerto Rico is a better example than Greece.

[Serenity Now]

---Wrong---The cost structure of the Post Office is awful--------I knew they would go broke when I received my first Email------Only the Gov't could have a monopoly and lose money

You're a critic with no critique on how they can improve. Are you saying the same thing as I am? I can't tell.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Just to clarify, the problem in Greece is that they can't fluctuate their currency to deal with the ups and downs in their economy. For a better explanation from a guy who predicted this almost 20 years ago -> http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/2-paragraphs-that-explain-the-greek-financial-crisis/ar-AAchxtN

Puerto Rico on the other hand is more about rampant borrowing to give it away. Even after 6 years of government cutting they still haven't gotten to a zero sum budget.

[Eielson]

The cost structure of the Post Office is awful

Serenity said they need to raise their rates. Is that what you're saying?

[REDREX]

You're a critic with no critique on how they can improve. Are you saying the same thing as I am? I can't tell.---And you are very naïve----If you want to save the Post office privatize it----

Is that clear enough

[REDREX]

Serenity said they need to raise their rates. Is that what you're saying?----No their cost to provide the service is way too high------CUT COSTS---- As an example---Do you really need Saturday service?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

---And you are very naïve----If you want to save the Post office privatize it----

Is that clear enough

Wouldn't that require a constitutional amendment?

[Eielson]

I'm not very familiar with how USPS works, so I'm willing to be edumacated.

If the PO charges rates that are too low, and they end up having to use taxpayer money because of that, is that much of an issue? After all, the taxpayers are the ones benefiting from the low rates.

It's always been my impression that USPS is one of the better ran organizations by the government.

[REDREX]

Wouldn't that require a constitutional amendment?--- Congress has the power to establish Post Offices---I would guess they could sell it

[BoulderSooner79]

I'm not very familiar with how USPS works, so I'm willing to be edumacated.

If the PO charges rates that are too low, and they end up having to use taxpayer money because of that, is that much of an issue? After all, the taxpayers are the ones benefiting from the low rates.

It's always been my impression that USPS is one of the better ran organizations by the government.

The problem with that model is that the usage varies greatly between individuals (I don't use USPS often) and many people pay little tax. So there needs to be justification the subsidy benefits the country as a whole. Otherwise, it's better to have the actual users pay fully for the service.

I've had few complaints with USPS service, but their balance sheet is awful.

[Eielson]

----No their cost to provide the service is way too high------CUT COSTS---- As an example---Do you really need Saturday service?

I'm not sure that's a good idea, and I think you may be looking at this in a vacuum. The purpose of the USPS isn't to make money for itself, is it? Many American businesses would suffer as a result of this.

[REDREX]

I'm not sure that's a good idea, and I think you may be looking at this in a vacuum. The purpose of the USPS isn't to make money for itself, is it? Many American businesses would suffer as a result of this.---90% of the mail I receive never makes it into the house straight to recycle

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

--- Congress has the power to establish Post Offices---I would guess they could sell it

They could have pre-1900, but I think all of the supreme court rulings after 1900 pushed the executive branch from oversight/designation to administration/operation of it. Don't even get me started on how an unchanged document can be interpreted by different justices so differently over time...

[Eielson]

The problem with that model is that the usage varies greatly between individuals (I don't use USPS often) and many people pay little tax. So there needs to be justification the subsidy benefits the country as a whole. Otherwise, it's better to have the actual users pay fully for the service.

I've had few complaints with USPS service, but their balance sheet is awful.

I agree, and I'm not suggesting they should intentionally do that. Ideally, the USPS never uses any tax dollars, but I don't see it as a big deal if happens occasionally.

[Eielson]

---90% of the mail I receive never makes it into the house straight to recycle

If they're out delivering the 10% of important things, they might as well drop of the other stuff too, right?

[olevetonahill]

---90% of the mail I receive never makes it into the house straight to recycle


If they're out delivering the 10% of important things, they might as well drop of the other stuff too, right?

That Bulk mail we all throw away at the PO is helping keep the cost of stamps down
I still take those Postage paid envelopes and stuff em with other crap and mail em back to em . It makes the PO money also LOL I was at my sisters one weekend and was bored she had a bunch of those credit card offer deals She was gonna throw em out i got all the Prepaid envvelopes and stuffed with the Sunday comics then mailed em.

[TAFBSooner]

That Bulk mail we all throw away at the PO is helping keep the cost of stamps down
I still take those Postage paid envelopes and stuff em with other crap and mail em back to em . It makes the PO money also LOL I was at my sisters one weekend and was bored she had a bunch of those credit card offer deals She was gonna throw em out i got all the Prepaid envvelopes and stuffed with the Sunday comics then mailed em.

Ha! I only do it with the banks. Anyone get the Capital One envelopes, that purport to have a tracking code on the back of the envelope? Either a LOT of people do this, or the Cap One CEO got really P.O.d over his lack of control. Did anybody ever take the time to see if the codes are really unique? They have a nice heavy piece of cardboard in them that probably jacks up the cost of the return mail another ounce.

[FaninAma]

The Greek fallout will be bad for Europe but Puerto Rico's impeding default will affect the US much more.

[olevetonahill]

Ha! I only do it with the banks. Anyone get the Capital One envelopes, that purport to have a tracking code on the back of the envelope? Either a LOT of people do this, or the Cap One CEO got really P.O.d over his lack of control. Did anybody ever take the time to see if the codes are really unique? They have a nice heavy piece of cardboard in them that probably jacks up the cost of the return mail another ounce.

I dropped off a broken toaster with one of em attached to, Never did hear what happened with it LOL

[TheHumanAlphabet]

jkm, I would also say that Greece's communistic monetary policies with socialized retirement, wages and such with many depending upon the central government is also the problem, more than just currency floating, etc. Many people don't want to give up what they have, hence the Socialists win in the last election. PR, on the other hand, is messed up an I wonder if you and I (along with all tax paying Americans) will pay for it in the end.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

jkm, I would also say that Greece's communistic monetary policies with socialized retirement, wages and such with many depending upon the central government is also the problem, more than just currency floating, etc. Many people don't want to give up what they have, hence the Socialists win in the last election. PR, on the other hand, is messed up an I wonder if you and I (along with all tax paying Americans) will pay for it in the end.

Their policies are an issue especially the minimum wage that starts at age 21 (since it causes a high drop out rate and then high unemployment at 21+).

However, you have to look at it from a bird's eye view. Over the last 6 years, Greece's GDP has contracted by 25% (with unemployment rising from 7 to 25%). When that happens your currency normally falls in value which then makes you more competitive on the world stage since you produce goods for less. The problem is that while they've lost 25%, Germany and France have been growing and keep the currency higher which doesn't give Greece any advantages.

[SoonerorLater]

Their policies are an issue especially the minimum wage that starts at age 21 (since it causes a high drop out rate and then high unemployment at 21+).

However, you have to look at it from a bird's eye view. Over the last 6 years, Greece's GDP has contracted by 25% (with unemployment rising from 7 to 25%). When that happens your currency normally falls in value which then makes you more competitive on the world stage since you produce goods for less. The problem is that while they've lost 25%, Germany and France have been growing and keep the currency higher which doesn't give Greece any advantages.

In a nutshell you have described the intrinsic flaw of the EU monetary structure. Germany is able to reap the benefits of a currency that floats lower than if they were under the old Deutsche Mark. The PIIGS have the opposite problem. This was doomed from the start.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I'm not sure that's a good idea, and I think you may be looking at this in a vacuum. The purpose of the USPS isn't to make money for itself, is it? Many American businesses would suffer as a result of this.

I'm trying to figure out whether or not you are joking. The USPS isn't the only game in town for the transfer of goods and information. E-mail, anyone? UPS? Fedex? Freight?

American businesses would do just fine without the post office. At one point, I think it was Ross Perot who offered to buy and privatize the post office. I'm sure he'd have made it more efficient. It isn't rocket science. The problem is too much money promised to too many current and retired employees.

The problem with the post office, largely, is the problem of many quasi-govermental and union businesses: labor costs comprise 80% or more of their expenses.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Their policies are an issue especially the minimum wage that starts at age 21 (since it causes a high drop out rate and then high unemployment at 21+).

However, you have to look at it from a bird's eye view. Over the last 6 years, Greece's GDP has contracted by 25% (with unemployment rising from 7 to 25%). When that happens your currency normally falls in value which then makes you more competitive on the world stage since you produce goods for less. The problem is that while they've lost 25%, Germany and France have been growing and keep the currency higher which doesn't give Greece any advantages.

If you want to get real technical, it's just the Greece sucks. It produces almost nothing the world really needs. Olives? Pepperoncinis, maybe?

Italy is almost as worthless as Greece as well.

[badger]

I read on a wire story earlier that Greece goods are almost entirely imported, so your olives and pepperoncinis comment is not too far off. It's greatest draw is tourism due to very historical sites, but that is scheduled for a drastic drop if people have to carry cash in an insecure country that might not have a readily available supply of goods at stores even if you don't get mugged first.

Italy's big draw is its history as well. It might have been decades since the Renaissance, but it's still where it all started, even if you can get a pizza anywhere else in the world these days ;)

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

If you want to get real technical, it's just the Greece sucks. It produces almost nothing the world really needs. Olives? Pepperoncinis, maybe?

Italy is almost as worthless as Greece as well.

No, but it hauls everything the world needs. They have the largest merchant marine in the world, but getting those guys to pay taxes has been a little bit of a chore.

Italy is an interesting story as well - Northern Italy has a crazy good economy...that supports southern italy.

Full Disclosure -> I've owned stock in Navios since 2009.

[FaninAma]

In a nutshell you have described the intrinsic flaw of the EU monetary structure. Germany is able to reap the benefits of a currency that floats lower than if they were under the old Deutsche Mark. The PIIGS have the opposite problem. This was doomed from the start.
This is exactly right. The Euro has subsidized Germany's economy by making their exports as cheap as every other EU nation. This has been very detrimental to countries in the EU who may have had an advantage in costs of exports due to their currency exchange rates.

[FaninAma]

If you want to get real technical, it's just the Greece sucks. It produces almost nothing the world really needs. Olives? Pepperoncinis, maybe?

Italy is almost as worthless as Greece as well.

That is because everybody works for the government. A bit of an exaggeration but not much.

[Eielson]

I'm trying to figure out whether or not you are joking.

I wasn't.

[Tear Down This Wall]

That is because everybody works for the government. A bit of an exaggeration but not much.

Old Soviet-style...technically, almost everyone is employed; but, what is being manufactured that the world needs?

Sad that some countries don't understand it. Actually, it's sad that we're moving towards it after fighting against it for decades and finally killing it in 1989.

[REDREX]

Looks like a "NO" vote the Greek people are idiots----- http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/greek-referendum-5-ways-a-no-vote-will-change-the-country/ar-AAcAWKN?ocid=iehp

[SoonerorLater]

Looks like a "NO" vote the Greek people are idiots

Yeah, get ready for my Big Fat Greek Depression.

[dwarthog]

Somehow this seems appropriate.

lAD6Obi7Cag

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Don't people over there have bank accounts and knew that a NO vote would result in an automatic "haircut" love that word for confiscation tax of 10-20%?? They are so addicted to the teat, they can't stop...

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Looks like a "NO" vote the Greek people are idiots----- http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/greek-referendum-5-ways-a-no-vote-will-change-the-country/ar-AAcAWKN?ocid=iehp

I just don't get this thinking. The previous bailout measures lowered their GDP by 29%. 29. When you are in a bad deal you get out of it, you don't sign on for more of the same. Greece is balking at one thing and one thing only -> If your plan lowers GDP, we don't pay it.

[SicEmBaylor]

http://www.wsj.com/articles/greek-finance-minister-yanis-varoufakis-resigns-after-referendum-1436162284

Yanis Varoufakis resigned. He used to be a VP of Steam, and I remember some of my gaming friends getting a woody over the fact that he was announced as the new Greek Finance Minister thinking management of micro-transactions in games would translate to a national economy. He's a self-described Marxist -- surprise , surprise, surprise how that turned out.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Could some one give me the Cliff's Notes version of the Greek economy? Why are they so Communist and so indebted to a central government payroll or dole? Did all the hard working, risk taking Greeks leave the country for the U.S. to open a restaurant?

[C&CDean]

Could some one give me the Cliff's Notes version of the Greek economy? Why are they so Communist and so indebted to a central government payroll or dole? Did all the hard working, risk taking Greeks leave the country for the U.S. to open a restaurant?

Nah, they're busy smearing baklava in little boys' asses.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Could some one give me the Cliff's Notes version of the Greek economy? Why are they so Communist and so indebted to a central government payroll or dole? Did all the hard working, risk taking Greeks leave the country for the U.S. to open a restaurant?

Greece is a lot like Mexico, most of the money is tied up in the hands of a few shipping magnates. Greece based shipping firms have 20% of the world's freight hauling capacity. The problem is that shipping firms have a billion ways to dodge taxes and they have used pretty much all of them to do it. After shipping, their 2nd item is tourism which greatly benefits from a lowered currency (which in the EU they don't have). After that is agriculture (cotton and such).

The fundamental problem is that the Greek Regime that pushed them into the EU couldn't do currency related math and see its impact on tourism and their internal situation. They entered the EU when the euro was at an all time high (which fixed the price of the drachma) so all of their internal payments are fixed to that number. So while the euro has declined those internal and external payments haven't.

It wasn't very long before they realized the problem on the tourism end - they have zero advantage over any other EU state with pricing and since the EU is their primary source of tourism, it shrunk. At that point, the euro killed them and they had to go seek a bailout. They fulfilled all of the conditions of the bail out an then some (there are tons of articles about how they were a model of implementing austerity). There was just one small problem - those conditions were based on economic theory at the IMF that turned out to be wrong.

The IMF forecasted that if they did what they said right now Greece's GDP would be 1% less than it was when they signed the bail out and unemployment right now should be 11%. GDP has contracted 29%. Unemployment is 26%.

There are payday lenders that treat customers better than what the IMF did with Greece.

[FaninAma]

Greece is a lot like Mexico, most of the money is tied up in the hands of a few shipping magnates. Greece based shipping firms have 20% of the world's freight hauling capacity. The problem is that shipping firms have a billion ways to dodge taxes and they have used pretty much all of them to do it. After shipping, their 2nd item is tourism which greatly benefits from a lowered currency (which in the EU they don't have). After that is agriculture (cotton and such).

The fundamental problem is that the Greek Regime that pushed them into the EU couldn't do currency related math and see its impact on tourism and their internal situation. They entered the EU when the euro was at an all time high (which fixed the price of the drachma) so all of their internal payments are fixed to that number. So while the euro has declined those internal and external payments haven't.

It wasn't very long before they realized the problem on the tourism end - they have zero advantage over any other EU state with pricing and since the EU is their primary source of tourism, it shrunk. At that point, the euro killed them and they had to go seek a bailout. They fulfilled all of the conditions of the bail out an then some (there are tons of articles about how they were a model of implementing austerity). There was just one small problem - those conditions were based on economic theory at the IMF that turned out to be wrong.

The IMF forecasted that if they did what they said right now Greece's GDP would be 1% less than it was when they signed the bail out and unemployment right now should be 11%. GDP has contracted 29%. Unemployment is 26%.

There are payday lenders that treat customers better than what the IMF did with Greece.
Nice summary. Having a standard currency helped strong currency nations like Germany but is killing those who need a weaker currency for the type of economy they have. I truly believe that the IMF and the ECB along with Greece's other creditors wanted to make an example out of Greece to discourage other debtor nations from trying to default on their loans.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Nice summary. Having a standard currency helped strong currency nations like Germany but is killing those who need a weaker currency for the type of economy they have. I truly believe that the IMF and the ECB along with Greece's other creditors wanted to make an example out of Greece to discourage other debtor nations from trying to default on their loans.

Totally agree. As a guy who loves game theory watching Yanis Varoufakis come up with a strategy where he pits the pride/arrogance of the political side of the EU against the pride/arrogance of the economic side has been pretty cool to watch. If Greece gets a decent deal to get out of this mess, it will be pretty much all because of him.

[REDREX]

I just don't get this thinking. The previous bailout measures lowered their GDP by 29%. 29. When you are in a bad deal you get out of it, you don't sign on for more of the same. Greece is balking at one thing and one thing only -> If your plan lowers GDP, we don't pay it.---Greece will be gone from the EU if the think that is good for them then vote No----It will not be good for them-Funny how people want loans repayed

[champions77]

The entitlement culture is wrecking Greece, as it will wreck us. Entitlements are so ingrained into the American culture today, and they have been taught by the government that they are "entitled" to those goodies, paid for by hard working Americans, many are the same ones demonized on a daily basis by the left that they somehow owe more, that the top 10% of the income earners "only" paying 70% of the total federal income tax burden is somehow not enough and that the wide variance between wealthy and poor Americans is getting larger. This is of course is a reason for the left to impose more taxes on the well to do.

Does having a large segment of your population dependent upon the federal government ever bother any leftists? Do they understand that if the government collapsed, what these folks are going to do to survive? Think Ferguson, but instead coming to your house and mine.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

---Greece will be gone from the EU if the think that is good for them then vote No----It will not be good for them-Funny how people want loans repayed

If Greece leaves the EU they have a lot better chance of paying those loans. One year after they left, I wouldn't be surprised if their GDP grew 10%.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

The entitlement culture is wrecking Greece, as it will wreck us. Entitlements are so ingrained into the American culture today, and they have been taught by the government that they are "entitled" to those goodies, paid for by hard working Americans, many are the same ones demonized on a daily basis by the left that they somehow owe more, that the top 10% of the income earners "only" paying 70% of the total federal income tax burden is somehow not enough and that the wide variance between wealthy and poor Americans is getting larger. This is of course is a reason for the left to impose more taxes on the well to do.

This is wrong in so many ways. The problem was that previous Greek governments signed external deals that were not in their country's best interest. The current administration is doing everything they can to tweak those deals so that they can get out of being a debtor nation.

Also, I really wish OU would require people to take Logic.


Does having a large segment of your population dependent upon the federal government ever bother any leftists? Do they understand that if the government collapsed, what these folks are going to do to survive? Think Ferguson, but instead coming to your house and mine.

Your second point illustrates that 100% of the people in the US are dependent on the federal government for safety. Le Sigh.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Nice summary. Having a standard currency helped strong currency nations like Germany but is killing those who need a weaker currency for the type of economy they have. I truly believe that the IMF and the ECB along with Greece's other creditors wanted to make an example out of Greece to discourage other debtor nations from trying to default on their loans.

Also one other thing about the new terms - the IMF wants to levy a 15% VAT tax on hotels and other touristy things. It just verifies that this isn't a negotiation, this is a shakedown.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

this just in, a Frenchman is not surrendering

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/thomas-piketty-slams-germany-for-stance-on-greek-debt-2015-07-06

[REDREX]

If Greece leaves the EU they have a lot better chance of paying those loans. One year after they left, I wouldn't be surprised if their GDP grew 10%.---If they leave and print new Greek money that does not create wealth--They will never get out of the problem without YEARS of sacrifice and lower spending----a lot lower

[dwarthog]

Greece's problems are many. They cooked to books to get into the Euro in the first place.

It's little wonder they are in this big mess now.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

---If they leave and print new Greek money that does not create wealth--They will never get out of the problem without YEARS of sacrifice and lower spending----a lot lower

You are totally right.

I mean what country would purposely devalue their currency so that their goods would always have a market? um (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/gdp-growth-annual)

Seriously, most of the economics I took in school were IO but even I know that given the mix of their goods they are better off without the euro.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Greece's problems are many. They cooked to books to get into the Euro in the first place.

It's little wonder they are in this big mess now.

True on the first part, but I'm at a loss as to how the IMF totally screwing up is their fault. That 29% reduction in GDP is 100% on the IMF.

Greece has some structural problems - their minimum wage law may be one of the worst laws that I've ever seen - but fixing those isn't a condition of the debt - Raising Taxes is.

[REDREX]

True on the first part, but I'm at a loss as to how the IMF totally screwing up is their fault. That 29% reduction in GDP is 100% on the IMF.

Greece has some structural problems - their minimum wage law may be one of the worst laws that I've ever seen - but fixing those isn't a condition of the debt - Raising Taxes is.----The IMF always leaves a trail of destruction

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

----The IMF always leaves a trail of destruction

Yes, yes they do. But I refuse to cry for what they did to Argentina.

[champions77]

This is wrong in so many ways. The problem was that previous Greek governments signed external deals that were not in their country's best interest. The current administration is doing everything they can to tweak those deals so that they can get out of being a debtor nation.

Also, I really wish OU would require people to take Logic.

Your second point illustrates that 100% of the people in the US are dependent on the federal government for safety. Le Sigh.

So to get out of their mess they elect a socialist, who ran on a platform to do away with the austerity programs the European Union requested. Their huge deficits are a contributing factor in their inability to pay their bills, but cutting back with austerity is rejected? I can imagine that the American people would say no to austerity too.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

So to get out of their mess they elect a socialist, who ran on a platform to do away with the austerity programs the European Union requested. Their huge deficits are a contributing factor in their inability to pay their bills, but cutting back with austerity is rejected? I can imagine that the American people would say no to austerity too.

What you aren't getting is that the austerity programs are WHY they can't pay their bills.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Greece_-_Public_revenue_vs_expenditure.png

They have decreased spending by 33%, but their GDP has tanked by 29% leaving a gap.

[dwarthog]

This will dampen their jubilation just a bit.


European Central Bank opts not to expand funds for flailing Greek banks

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/greeks-reject-bailout-offer-in-landslide/2015/07/06/827b840f-f803-443d-a478-5d257b1af1fe_story.html

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

This will dampen their jubilation just a bit.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/greeks-reject-bailout-offer-in-landslide/2015/07/06/827b840f-f803-443d-a478-5d257b1af1fe_story.html

Gah, this is probably going to push Albania and Bulgaria into recessions as they lose all of their capital :(

[Tear Down This Wall]

Gah, this is probably going to push Albania and Bulgaria into recessions as they lose all of their capital :(

This would be so much easier for the Greeks if they were either black or had a high incidence of HIV/AIDs. Then, countries around the globe would shovel trillions of dollars to them, no questions asked.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

This would be so much easier for the Greeks if they were either black or had a high incidence of HIV/AIDs. Then, countries around the globe would shovel trillions of dollars to them, no questions asked.

That is funny stuff right there.

[TAFBSooner]

What you aren't getting is that the austerity programs are WHY they can't pay their bills.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Greece_-_Public_revenue_vs_expenditure.png

They have decreased spending by 33%, but their GDP has tanked by 29% leaving a gap.

What, are you saying that if you deliberately shrink an economy there will be less money available in that economy?!?

[Curly Bill]

If the founders of western civilization are going off a cliff, what hope is there for the rest of us?!

Maybe there is something to this Obammy as the anti-Christ dealio!

[SoonerorLater]

What you aren't getting is that the austerity programs are WHY they can't pay their bills.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Greece_-_Public_revenue_vs_expenditure.png

They have decreased spending by 33%, but their GDP has tanked by 29% leaving a gap.

Looks like that gap is narrowing. Keep it up for another 15-20 years and they should be back in the black.

[badger]

When you think about it, the lenders should have never given Greece the borrowing power that they did just because OMG EURO.

I might as well have been lending $100 to my toddler for a new Malibu Stacy collector's edition doll... sure, she has no job and her birthday/holiday gift money never reaches that amount, but by golly, she's got family who can afford that loan, so she must be able to foot the bill by herself too!

[Serenity Now]

Yes, yes they do. But I refuse to cry for what they did to Argentina.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQyCkwAGoVChMI-o6J2r_JxgIV1huSCh2oiwLp&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DMEM UsC8ppU0&ei=CwacVbrdM9a3yASol4rIDg&usg=AFQjCNHLZ_93Po_ila89sCt3NWzfh0ehGw&sig2=wcBLY_kMpLIZsGZWYhIPAg

[Tear Down This Wall]

That is funny stuff right there.

And, just look at the economic powerhouse that Africa has become as a result.

[champions77]

What you aren't getting is that the austerity programs are WHY they can't pay their bills.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Greece_-_Public_revenue_vs_expenditure.png

They have decreased spending by 33%, but their GDP has tanked by 29% leaving a gap.

I wish it was so simple. Lots of things going into why Greece..is Greece. Austerity would have never been installed in the first place if all was good right?

[okie52]

Bernie sanders supports the Greek vote...nothing like being fiscally responsible.

Let 'em fail.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Bernie sanders supports the Greek vote...nothing like being fiscally responsible.

Let 'em fail.I'll print and donate some New Drachmas to his campaign.

[FaninAma]

I am actually glad Greece is defaulting. Perhaps the banking cartel crack dealers will think twice about continuing to loan crack to crack addicted countries which might cause the addict to get cleaned up.

*crack=debt

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

The weirdest deal in this thing was the IMF admitting that they screwed up and that they'd help Greece if the EU didn't.

[dwarthog]

I am actually glad Greece is defaulting. Perhaps the banking cartel crack dealers will think twice about continuing to loan crack to crack addicted countries which might cause the addict to get cleaned up.

*crack=debt

There are probably government/internationally supported regulations of some sort that "require" these banks, who are probably underpinned by said governments to supply the addicts with the necessary cash to keep the addition in place.

If not, I sure hope you are correct.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

This move by Tsipras is rather odd. I don't think there is any way this gets approved by their legislature. I'm wondering if he was just tired of dealing with the EU?

[Breadburner]

They should take care of their tax evasion problem first........

[dwarthog]

This move by Tsipras is rather odd. I don't think there is any way this gets approved by their legislature. I'm wondering if he was just tired of dealing with the EU?

Very curious. Looks like a step backwards for sure.

I wonder how the average Greek's standing in long lines to get a minimum withdrawl from their local bank will play into this. (Assuming they could even get into the bank before it ran out of money)

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I would love to go to the IRS and work with them to determine what my yearly income is...That and the "secondary salaries" that would go with that... Must be good to be a tax man in Greece.

[dwarthog]

The Greeks approve the austerity bill to remain in the Euro.


http://www.columbian.com/news/2015/jul/15/greek-lawmakers-ok-austerity-bill/