Indiana "religious freedom"..

[rock on sooner]

surprised that no one has started a discussion about what appears to
be clear discrimination against LGBT in the name of religious freedom....

[Serenity Now]

You just did. I think it's interesting/funny to see the national companies making their voices heard that they want no part of Indiana for conventions, headquarters, etc. This should be something to watch. The right might as well be defending interracial marriage. Karl Rove started this all in 2004 when they had the national "referendum on marriage" designed to get some people energized to go to the polls. I think that is one reason that Coburn won the Senate seat then. It was smart politics on the part of the national GOP. I don't agree with it but that's irrelevant.

[SicEmBaylor]

I'm a firm believer that a business ought to have the right to serve or deny service to whomever they please for whatever reason they please. I am a firm believer that wages ought to be a private contract/agreement between employee and employer. Property rights and the right of free association are the cornerstone of our republic.

The critics are considerably short-sighted on the issue. If a business owner is a bigot or homophobe then it won't take long for word to spread, and the market will reward or penalize them accordingly. They ought to have a right to discriminate, but they would be supremely stupid to do so. You also have to look at it from another point of view: Should a Jewish owned business be forced to serve a group of Neo-Nazis? Should a gay-owned business be forced to serve Jerry Falwell? I think not.

The opponents of this legislation act as if there are going to be signs up all over Indiana tomorrow denying service to anyone and everyone -- that's just absolute nonsense.

[SoonerorLater]

Discrimination is often nothing more than a cultural popularity contest and it happens all the time. Few would be complaining if there was discrimination against Nazis or the KKK. I think it is just fine to discriminate against the LGBT crowd just as it is OK to discriminate against the KKK. At some point people in this country have a right to make the statement 'this isn't what I'm all about'.

[olevetonahill]

Some one explain to me how its Proper to restrict a Christians rights to make sure the Gheys are discriminated against?

[Serenity Now]

And that's why we have the Civil Rights Act.

[BoulderSooner79]

I'm a firm believer that a business ought to have the right to serve or deny service to whomever they please for whatever reason they please. I am a firm believer that wages ought to be a private contract/agreement between employee and employer. Property rights and the right of free association are the cornerstone of our republic.

The critics are considerably short-sighted on the issue. If a business owner is a bigot or homophobe then it won't take long for word to spread, and the market will reward or penalize them accordingly. They ought to have a right to discriminate, but they would be supremely stupid to do so. You also have to look at it from another point of view: Should a Jewish owned business be forced to serve a group of Neo-Nazis? Should a gay-owned business be forced to serve Jerry Falwell? I think not.

The opponents of this legislation act as if there are going to be signs up all over Indiana tomorrow denying service to anyone and everyone -- that's just absolute nonsense.

And Salesforce.com (and I suspect other businesses) are exercising their right to give the finger to Indiana legislators.

[Soonerjeepman]

And Salesforce.com (and I suspect other businesses) are exercising their right to give the finger to Indiana legislators.

isn't that funny how that works? I totally agree with SIC...a sign company can deny West Minister Baptist church and any neo nazi group...what is the difference?

The gay community doesn't want "rights"...they want EVERYONE to embrace, support, believe in their lifestyle.

I'll go to my grave believing it's not normal or biological until the science community can prove 100% it is.

[Serenity Now]

I think we all know someone who's been that way since they were very young. I don't know what the big deal is?

[olevetonahill]

I think we all know someone who's been that way since they were very young. I don't know what the big deal is?

IMHO It aint a Big deal, So why do they want to make a Big deal out of it when some Christian Cake maker wont put a statue of a Dude suckin off another dude on the top of a wedding Cake? Where's the Cake makers Right to choose?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

People in the private sector should be able to reject prospective customers without giving a reason, although it's not wise to not give a reason, and they shouldn't be penalized in any way by the government.(other than maybe the govt. refusing to do business with them)

[olevetonahill]

People in the private sector should be able to reject prospective customers without giving a reason, although it's not wise to not give a reason, and they shouldn't be penalized in any way by the government.(other than maybe the govt. refusing to do business with them)

Agreed. What ever happened to the signs " WE reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"?

Lets take this one step further to an extreme Say I firmly believe God wants me to go Shirtless and Barefoot thru life, Should stores and restaurants Be forced to let me in?

[SicEmBaylor]

to my grave believing it's not normal or biological until the science community can prove 100% it is.

Homosexuality is normal in the sense that it's just a genetic quirk no different than someone being born with a birthmark.

[SicEmBaylor]

I think we all know someone who's been that way since they were very young. I don't know what the big deal is?

Conservatives, for whatever reason, are scared ****less and absolutely hung up on homosexuality. I couldn't give a ****, and I believe the 'conservative' thing to do is to ensure that all Americans have the same rights and liberties as everyone else.

[BoulderSooner79]

...
Lets take this one step further to an extreme Say I firmly believe God wants me to go Shirtless and Barefoot thru life, Should stores and restaurants Be forced to let me in?

For attractive people, yes. You? Not so much.


:devilish:

[yermom]

Homosexuality is normal in the sense that it's just a genetic quirk no different than someone being born with a birthmark.

it's not really that simple

but i'm kinda over the biological part. it really doesn't matter

some people don't care able the little book other people like. why does it matter who someone goes to bed with at night?

[SoonerorLater]

Conservatives, for whatever reason, are scared ****less and absolutely hung up on homosexuality. I couldn't give a ****, and I believe the 'conservative' thing to do is to ensure that all Americans have the same rights and liberties as everyone else.

What rights do homosexuals not have that heterosexuals do have?

[olevetonahill]

Conservatives, for whatever reason, are scared ****less and absolutely hung up on homosexuality. I couldn't give a ****, and I believe the 'conservative' thing to do is to ensure that all Americans have the same rights and liberties as everyone else.

I dont believe that Many are "Scared ****less" Ive said many times I dont care where ya put yer pecker, Just dont ever pinch me on the azz.

My problem with every one seeming to have a Problem with this is the fact that As long as the LBGT group, The Blacks and anyone else that may get their feelings hurt are pandered too the
White heterosexual , Conservative Christian has to take a back seat.
Like Ya said above, if a business wants to NOT serve the Gays or anyone else that should be their choice. and they will pay the price or reap the rewards of their actions.

[Serenity Now]

Your use of the phrase "The Blacks" is what they call in poker a tell.

[Serenity Now]

It's like the red states are in a race to see who can be the nutsiest. Oklahoma has recruited well for this endeavor and we have come out strong!

Reagan couldn't win a primary with this current gop.

[olevetonahill]

Your use of the phrase "The Blacks" is what they call in poker a tell.
What? that i was raised in the 50s an 60s? Bite me

[SoonerorLater]

Your use of the phrase "The Blacks" is what they call in poker a tell.

Please, do go on, expound.

[Serenity Now]

They say it filters out after a generation or two. It worked in my family tree.

[FaninAma]

They say it filters out after a generation or two. It worked in my family tree.
What the heck are you talking about?

[olevetonahill]

What the heck are you talking about?

In his own little round about way he's saying he's better than I am, And that Im a Racist, because I made my point and used the word"Blacks"

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Your use of the phrase "The Blacks" is what they call in poker a tell.What is your preferred, non telling term?

[olevetonahill]

What is your preferred, non telling term?

Guess I could have said ****** and that would have really exposed me huh?

Thats the main reason I hate to even try to have a civil discussion with a Lib. No matter what you say they seem to pounce on one word or one facet of your statement and use it to try to discredit every thing you said.

[FaninAma]

What is your preferred, non telling term?
I am sort of curious about that, too. What is the PC approved term these days?

[Turd_Ferguson]

I am sort of curious about that, too. What is the PC approved term these days?

Isn't it African(Afro)-American? I wish peeps would call me Irish-American instead of white...

[olevetonahill]

I am sort of curious about that, too. What is the PC approved term these days?

Well lets see, we Have BLACK history month, Black power, Black congressional Caucus And Black lives matter, So am I to understand that once again ONLY Blacks can use that term? Ya know like the term ******!

[Serenity Now]

I think it's an age thing. I'm 48. I went to ou and was in a fraternity with more gays than democrats. In grad school (circa 1992) my two republican roommates and I would joke about one of their dad's who referred to "the blacks". It just stuck out to me.

You and yours equate intellect with sensibility. I don't. David duke is smart.

[olevetonahill]

I think it's an age thing. I'm 48. I went to ou and was in a fraternity with more gays than democrats. In grad school (circa 1992) my two republican roommates and I would joke about one of their dad's who referred to "the blacks". It just stuck out to me.

You and yours equate intellect with sensibility. I don't. David duke is smart.
Typical Lib, you Paint with a broad brush!

[Serenity Now]

Typical older republican.

You guys live your figurative circle jerks like this place, faux news, etc.

Get off my lawn!!!

[yermom]

Well lets see, we Have BLACK history month, Black power, Black congressional Caucus And Black lives matter, So am I to understand that once again ONLY Blacks can use that term? Ya know like the term ******!

i'll stick with colored, like the NAACP

[FaninAma]

I think it's an age thing. I'm 48. I went to ou and was in a fraternity with more gays than democrats. In grad school (circa 1992) my two republican roommates and I would joke about one of their dad's who referred to "the blacks". It just stuck out to me.

You and yours equate intellect with sensibility. I don't. David duke is smart.
And you wonder why people make fun of frat guys. So what IS the appripriate term? Or are darker pigmented individuals not te be referenced by skin color and whites are called pigmentally challenged? Please enlighten us. I live in mortal fear of offending the easily offended.

[rock on sooner]

Agreed. What ever happened to the signs " WE reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"?

Lets take this one step further to an extreme Say I firmly believe God wants me to go Shirtless and Barefoot thru life, Should stores and restaurants Be forced to let me in?

Those signs are alive and well...fully enforced, too. Restaurants, bars, supermarkets,
big box retailers.etc.....never mind the "no shorts, no shoes" ones. It has always
been within the purview of the retailer to decide whether or not he/she wants the
business. Someone posted in this thread about just not making a big deal about it.
Now, the REALLY big deal currently is "No firearms allowed".

[SoonerorLater]

Typical older republican.

You guys live your figurative circle jerks like this place, faux news, etc.

Get off my lawn!!!

hmm, faux news, circle jerks.......where have I heard that on this board before? Sounds so familiar.

[Turd_Ferguson]

hmm, faux news, circle jerks.......where have I heard that on this board before? Sounds so familiar.

Yeah. One go's down, another pops up. Whackalib!

[olevetonahill]

Those signs are alive and well...fully enforced, too. Restaurants, bars, supermarkets,
big box retailers.etc.....never mind the "no shorts, no shoes" ones. It has always
been within the purview of the retailer to decide whether or not he/she wants the
business. Someone posted in this thread about just not making a big deal about it.
Now, the REALLY big deal currently is "No firearms allowed".

If all that is fine, then why the fuss over this Bill? The only thing i see about the firearms is the Gun control crowed wants to boycott any business that allows firearms while the 2nd amendment crowed wants to boycott business's that for bid em.

If I have a cake store and I dont wanta bake a cake for two purple people eaters thats MY business, The Purple people eaters of the world can boycott me all they want!

[hawaii 5-0]

If some business doesn't want to provide service to someone they shouldn't have to.

If some group wants to picket or boycott that business because of that company's specific or general hatreds they should be able to.


5-0

[rock on sooner]

Had my own business for 13 years...only people to whom I refused service
were the rude, condescending ones that thought their stuff didn't stink.
Never occurred to me to ask about their politics or sexuality. The only
color that mattered was green.

[SoonerorLater]

Had my own business for 13 years...only people to whom I refused service
were the rude, condescending ones that thought their stuff didn't stink.
Never occurred to me to ask about their politics or sexuality. The only
color that mattered was green.

Which is exactly why this is all much ado about nothing. The large majority of businesses will look at this exactly as you did (do). Others who choose to discriminate for whatever reason will suffer (or prosper) by their decision.

[Serenity Now]

Been away. I expect to see African American or "black people/community". To me black is an adjective and not a noun. Happy to help.

[Serenity Now]

They should just add sexual orientation to Title VII.

[SoonerorLater]

They should just add sexual orientation to Title VII.

Why?

[Soonerjeepman]

They should just add sexual orientation to Title VII.

Until they prove it's 100% biological, like race, sex, then no they shouldn't.

You offended by "white" on all the applications, surveys, etc? why not? I'm not "white"... that's a color... or adj as you said. I'm a noun, race, American... or USA citizen... or euro-American... but not "white"

[hawaii 5-0]

What rights do homosexuals not have that heterosexuals do have?


It's been years but there used to be a time where, if a loved one was seriously ill in an Intensive Care Unit, you'd be refused admittance unless you were 'family members only'. Lots of 'significant others' were refused entry as their loved ones were dying.

Civil Unions didn't count. Only those either related by birth or marriage were admitted.

Just one example.


5-0

[SoonerorLater]

It's been years but there used to be a time where, if a loved one was seriously ill in an Intensive Care Unit, you'd be refused admittance unless you were 'family members only'. Lots of 'significant others' were refused entry as their loved ones were dying.

Civil Unions didn't count. Only those either related by birth or marriage were admitted.

Just one example.


5-0

I probably should just let this drop but I can't.

Wouldn't the same rules apply to a heterosexual under these circumstances? Wouldn't a heterosexual be denied access if only family were permitted? Why would a patients sexual preference give people of that same preference certain privileges? That's what it would be.

[BoulderSooner79]

Discussing the merits/legality of a law like this may be intellectually satisfying, but everyone knows the intent is not as stated. The people behind these laws are just mad because they are losing the battle to keep gay marriage from happening. They mad bro. So they throw out a preemptive strike to try to make up something they can win and succeed in looking like morans in the process. This is a totally unnecessary law. The number of people that would patronize a business that doesn't give them good service is tiny as is the number of businesses that would turn away business from good customers. The folks that feel strongly against this law could break it so easily. All they have to do is find all such businesses, then have a bunch of hetero people visit them acting as stereotype gay as possible and then sue when they are refused service. I'm sure there are plenty of hetero people against this law that would agree to do this.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Discussing the merits/legality of a law like this may be intellectually satisfying, but everyone knows the intent is not as stated. The people behind these laws are just mad because they are losing the battle to keep gay marriage from happening. They mad bro. So they throw out a preemptive strike to try to make up something they can win and succeed in looking like morans in the process. This is a totally unnecessary law. The number of people that would patronize a business that doesn't give them good service is tiny as is the number of businesses that would turn away business from good customers. The folks that feel strongly against this law could break it so easily. All they have to do is find all such businesses, then have a bunch of hetero people visit them acting as stereotype gay as possible and then sue when they are refused service. I'm sure there are plenty of hetero people against this law that would agree to do this.

What if they're all "gay blind"?

[olevetonahill]

If some business doesn't want to provide service to someone they shouldn't have to.

If some group wants to picket or boycott that business because of that company's specific or general hatreds they should be able to.


5-0

And we have a winner!
Aint that what we been sayin?

[SoonerorLater]

Discussing the merits/legality of a law like this may be intellectually satisfying, but everyone knows the intent is not as stated. The people behind these laws are just mad because they are losing the battle to keep gay marriage from happening. They mad bro. So they throw out a preemptive strike to try to make up something they can win and succeed in looking like morans in the process. This is a totally unnecessary law. The number of people that would patronize a business that doesn't give them good service is tiny as is the number of businesses that would turn away business from good customers. The folks that feel strongly against this law could break it so easily. All they have to do is find all such businesses, then have a bunch of hetero people visit them acting as stereotype gay as possible and then sue when they are refused service. I'm sure there are plenty of hetero people against this law that would agree to do this.

Well yes, there is a an intellectual and legal component to this so it's not like you can dismiss that out of hand. Also this law isn't "anti-homosexual" legislation per se. Let me ask you this. Should any business be able to refuse service out of an act of conscience? Should a Jewish baker be forced to decorate a Nazi cake? Should a black shopkeeper be forced to accommodate the KKK?

This is a good law. Businesses should be able to serve who they wish (ex civil rights act 1964)

[BoulderSooner79]

Well yes, there is a an intellectual and legal component to this so it's not like you can dismiss that out of hand. Also this law isn't "anti-homosexual" legislation per se. Let me ask you this. Should any business be able to refuse service out of an act of conscience? Should a Jewish baker be forced to decorate a Nazi cake? Should a black shopkeeper be forced to accommodate the KKK?

This is a good law. Businesses should be able to serve who they wish (ex civil rights act 1964)

Like I said, I don't believe for a second this law is meant to protect some poor small business owner from having to serve gay customers. If it really was, your question would be worth answering, but it's not. If it was the same as Jews forced to serve Nazis or blacks accomodating the KKK, those would have been issues in the court a long time ago. It's just designed to find another legal foothold against gay marriage as it becomes clear it is coming. I think capitalism will ultimately make this whole effort fade out with a whimper, but that assumes people are fundamentally rational, so I'm not putting money on it.

[hawaii 5-0]

I probably should just let this drop but I can't.

Wouldn't the same rules apply to a heterosexual under these circumstances? Wouldn't a heterosexual be denied access if only family were permitted? Why would a patients sexual preference give people of that same preference certain privileges? That's what it would be.

As I understood it back then (maybe 15 years ago) there were couples that had been together many many years and one partner was refused entry because there was no marriage. Heterosexual partners used the 'common law' excuse with no problem.

5-0

[yermom]

I probably should just let this drop but I can't.

Wouldn't the same rules apply to a heterosexual under these circumstances? Wouldn't a heterosexual be denied access if only family were permitted? Why would a patients sexual preference give people of that same preference certain privileges? That's what it would be.

except that there is no way to legally marry in many states if you are a same sex couple

[olevetonahill]

Had my own business for 13 years...only people to whom I refused service
were the rude, condescending ones that thought their stuff didn't stink.
Never occurred to me to ask about their politics or sexuality. The only
color that mattered was green.

Thats admirable !Point being is! Seems YOU had the right to REFUSE that service , am I correct?

[olevetonahill]

except that there is no way to legally marry in many states if you are a same sex couple

Dave what in hell does that mater?

[olevetonahill]

It's been years but there used to be a time where, if a loved one was seriously ill in an Intensive Care Unit, you'd be refused admittance unless you were 'family members only'. Lots of 'significant others' were refused entry as their loved ones were dying.

Civil Unions didn't count. Only those either related by birth or marriage were admitted.

Just one example.


5-0

Horse shat! I remember Many times that we just said he was my brother/ She was/Is my sister/Brother

Yall spewing that are stupid!

[yermom]

Horse shat! I remember Many times that we just said he was my brother/ She was/Is my sister/Brother

Yall spewing that are stupid!

the point was that there are things that gay couples are not able to do that straight couples have access to. hospital visitation is one thing.

sure you can lie, but what happens if the family doesn't want you there?

the other issue was inheritance. one of the cases that went to the supreme court was about a beneficiary from a gay couple that was married in Canada

there were hundreds of thousands of dollars involved in extra taxes because the US didn't recognize their marriage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Windsor

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Quote Originally Posted by hawaii 5-0
If some business doesn't want to provide service to someone they shouldn't have to.

If some group wants to picket or boycott that business because of that company's specific or general hatreds they should be able to.
And we have a winner!
Aint that what we been sayin?Basic freedoms. The state should not be allowed to interfere with them.

[rock on sooner]

Thats admirable !Point being is! Seems YOU had the right to REFUSE that service , am I correct?

Yup, see #36 in this thread...

[Serenity Now]

Horse shat! I remember Many times that we just said he was my brother/ She was/Is my sister/Brother

Yall spewing that are stupid!
It happens. To those who want to ignore/minimize that fact, you're the problem. It's one thing for you/yours to not agree with a certain lifestyle. It's another to keep fellow Americans from being able to enjoy the same rights that you have. I can respect someone who says "I'm against gay marriage, but, I can agree with civil unions." That's the non-selfish way to disagree on this issue.

[here's where you guys drop the demeaning bestiality references to try to conflate things]

[Serenity Now]

There are some health care issues as far as access in the hospital, health insurance, etc. However, the larger issues are more like estate issues dealing with when someone passes away (natural causes or via trauma) and their "partner" then does not have the rights granted to a spouse. I'm thinking more financial/estate level issues. Sometimes a will can take care of that. Sometimes it can't.

[olevetonahill]

Not Prob that Serenity or YerMom mentioned that cant be taken care of with a Minor amount of planning.

As far as marriage goes, I dont care if a horse wants to marry a cow and have adopted piglets, (Hows that fer yer beastality)
seems you two want to paint every conservative with the brush of Bigotry and racism.

[Serenity Now]

Not Prob that Serenity or YerMom mentioned that cant be taken care of with a Minor amount of planning.

As far as marriage goes, I dont care if a horse wants to marry a cow and have adopted piglets, (Hows that fer yer beastality)
seems you two want to paint every conservative with the brush of Bigotry and racism.Agree, mostly. Except that car accidents and other unplanned deaths can't be planned.

[Serenity Now]

Sweet Irony!

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/03/whoops-indianas-anti-gay-religious-freedom-act-opens-the-door-for-the-first-church-of-cannabis/

[okie52]

Sweet Irony!

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/03/whoops-indianas-anti-gay-religious-freedom-act-opens-the-door-for-the-first-church-of-cannabis/

Maybe Oklahoma should pass this law!!!

[SoonerorLater]

Sweet Irony!

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/03/whoops-indianas-anti-gay-religious-freedom-act-opens-the-door-for-the-first-church-of-cannabis/

A very poor take by the writer. Currently it's illegal so the First Church of Cannabis won't be able to smoke weed with impunity.

[Serenity Now]

A very poor take by the writer. Currently it's illegal so the First Church of Cannabis won't be able to smoke weed with impunity.

Captain buzz kill.

[yermom]

Not Prob that Serenity or YerMom mentioned that cant be taken care of with a Minor amount of planning.

As far as marriage goes, I dont care if a horse wants to marry a cow and have adopted piglets, (Hows that fer yer beastality)
seems you two want to paint every conservative with the brush of Bigotry and racism.

why should a gay couple have to go through hoops that straight people don't have to?

[olevetonahill]

why should a gay couple have to go through hoops that straight people don't have to?

Never said they did. Just said a Little planning will prevent most of the problems yall are bringing up.

Now , Why should a Christian business have to jump thru hoops to satisfy anyone?

[hawaii 5-0]

Maybe Oklahoma should pass this law!!!


When pigs fly.

5-0

[Serenity Now]

Never said they did. Just said a Little planning will prevent most of the problems yall are bringing up.

Now , Why should a Christian business have to jump thru hoops to satisfy anyone?

1. "Most" means not all. So, there are fellow citizens denied the right that you/I have and A) You're OK with this and B) You're OK with legislation making it more difficult.
2. A business shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against a protected class. The Supreme Court categorized gay marriage as a protected class in their DOMA ruling indicating that it was protected under the 5th Amendment. Some have argued that it falls under "sex" of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. And, before you put your Jewish shoemaker having to fix a Nazi's shoe, being a White Supremist is not a protected class in the U.S....UNLESS they back into it as "religion" like the cannibus dude. That will be SOUR IRONY.

[FaninAma]

why should a gay couple have to go through hoops that straight people don't have to?

They shouldn't. As a business owner I would be happy to have a gay couple patronize my business. If the gay couple conducted themselves maturely and with appropriate decorum there would be no problem. Of course the same would go for heterosexual customers, also.

[okie52]

When pigs fly.

5-0

So you don't think a "religious freedom" bill would "fly" in OK?

[FaninAma]

So you don't think a "religious freedom" bill would "fly" in OK?

No, I think he is saying a law to legalize marijuana wouldn't pass in Oklahoma. I think those who think marijuana is harmless and think it is a good idea that it is legalized will rue the stupidity of their action in a few years. Already the governor of Colorado understands what a mistake his state made. It is incredible that state and local governments have worked so hard to limit the access of cigarettes and alcohol to minors but then fall all over themselves to make it easier for minors to have access to marijuana.

[Serenity Now]

No, I think he is saying a law to legalize marijuana wouldn't pass in Oklahoma. I think those who think marijuana is harmless and think it is a good idea that it is legalized will rue the stupidity of their action in a few years. Already the governor of Colorado understands what a mistake his state made. It is incredible that state and local governments have worked so hard to limit the access of cigarettes and alcohol to minors but then fall all over themselves to make it easier for minors to have access to marijuana.

I kind of agree with you. I think there's a happy (no pun intended) medium there somewhere. I think weed is less harmful than bourbon. But, everything in moderation and the young don't know how to spell that.

[FaninAma]

I kind of agree with you. I think there's a happy (no pun intended) medium there somewhere. I think weed is less harmful than bourbon. But, everything in moderation and the young don't know how to spell that.

Ordinarily I am a pretty big libertarian but in a society where parenteral oversight of their children in regards to moral dilemnas is in short supply there has to be an authority to fill the vaccum. Sadly, the only authority in this case is the government.

[SoonerorLater]

Captain buzz kill.

It's a gift I have.

[okie52]

No, I think he is saying a law to legalize marijuana wouldn't pass in Oklahoma. I think those who think marijuana is harmless and think it is a good idea that it is legalized will rue the stupidity of their action in a few years. Already the governor of Colorado understands what a mistake his state made. It is incredible that state and local governments have worked so hard to limit the access of cigarettes and alcohol to minors but then fall all over themselves to make it easier for minors to have access to marijuana.

Oh I know that 5-0 didn't get how Indiana passed it as "a religious freedom" bill and pot was a possible unintended consequence...the same way it could be passed in OK. I also have no problem supporting pot being legalized in OK. And pot will never be as harmful as alcohol IMO.

Shouldn't be any easier for minors to have access to pot than they do to tobacco or alcohol.

[FaninAma]

The pot from 20 years ago was probably less dangerous than alcohol at that time(I say "probably"). But today the THC level in marijuana is 30+ times the level of 20 years ago. There is more research showing that at those levels there is serious central nervous system sequelae happening from both short term and long term use. I think the decision to throw open the market in the states where the referendums passed was very short sighted. There should have been a lot more thought and control go into the decision. The level and potency of the THC in the products available to the public needed to be contolled and limited.

And it absolutely is a fact that increased supply and access of marijuana in these states will mean easier access to minors. I don't see how you can deny that.

[okie52]

The pot from 20 years ago was probably less dangerous than alcohol at that time(I say "probably"). But today the THC level in marijuana is 30+ times the level of 20 years ago. There is more research showing that at those levels there is serious central nervous system sequelae happening from both short term and long term use. I think the decision to throw open the market in the states where the referendums passed was very short sighted. There should have been a lot more thought and control go into the decision. The level and potency of the THC in the products available to the public needed to be contolled and limited.

And it absolutely is a fact that increased supply and access of marijuana in these states will mean easier access to minors. I don't see how you can deny that.

I don't deny that pot will face the same issues of access by minors as is faced by tobacco and alcohol. Doesn't mean it should not legal just because some minors will break the law to use it just like they do alcohol and tobacco.

One hit pot for most people will mean just that...one or two hits and you're done. Sure we'll have potheads that abuse it just like we have people abuse alcohol. Do you really think a stoned pot users behavior will be worse than an overserved drinker?

Of course some people like to mix the two (:drunk:) so that might require a whole new study.

[hawaii 5-0]

So you don't think a "religious freedom" bill would "fly" in OK?


I don't think there will be a Church of Cannabis in Oklahoma anytime soon.

I'm surprised they haven't already passed a 'religious freedom ' bill.

5-0

[okie52]

Which, if passed, could bring in a church of cannabis...eh?

Maybe Hawaii needs a "religious freedom" bill to take care of the native religions and make use of their Maui wowee...

I mean Hawaii is a pretty down to earth state, isn't it?

[hawaii 5-0]

Hawaii is very religious.

You really should be more informed before you put your foot in your mouth.

Hawaii is one of 2 states with no form of legalized gambling. Not even a lottery. Due to the religious folks. Instead Vegas is the #1 vacation destination for locals.

FYI, Hawaii has a medical marijuana law. Currently they're trying to get dispensaries to sell it. As it is, the only way to legally get it is to grown your own. A lot of cancer patients and MS sufferers just can't do that.

The 'Religious Freedom' ploy has been tried on the Big Island. Its main proponent is serving a 7 year term.

5-0

[okie52]

Oops...I mispoke about Hawaii? God forbid.

theyve got a medical marijuana law but no dispensaries to sell it? Now that's thinking outside the box.

So a proponent of "religious freedom" is serving 7 years because he proposed it?
Awesome! No need to put up with these intolerant baztards.

[hawaii 5-0]

Uh, he did a little more than propose it.

5-0

[okie52]

So what did he do 5-0?

Did he refuse to place 2 male figurines on top of a cake?

[Serenity Now]

Final Four in Indianapolis this weekend. I'm thinking that's not good timing for the stick to your guns crowd. It appears as if Indiana is crawdadding even though the Gov. said that they wouldn't. The feces hit the rotating oscilator.

The intent of this bill is not horrible. It's intended to allow bigoted (by their doctrine) service industry people to not be financially damaged for declining to do a gay wedding (catering, photos, etc.). I can actually get on board with that to some extent. Except that the price that they pay is that they should have to go onto a list that people could publicly search so that anyone looking for that service would know who serves all people and who discriminates. I think that the market would remove them from the pool quickly as, mostly, young folks are getting married in big weddings.

[Tear Down This Wall]

People in the private sector should be able to reject prospective customers without giving a reason, although it's not wise to not give a reason, and they shouldn't be penalized in any way by the government.(other than maybe the govt. refusing to do business with them)

This is the way we've always played it. If I don't like the look or sound of a prospect, I simply tell them we can't provide what they are requesting, and suggest the name of another business or two where they can go. It works for some industries. But, I can see how it would be difficult for restaurants, though.

With cakes, it would seem to be easy enough to just tells them that you are already booked up for that weekend, and leave it at that. If I were a baker, I'd go at it this way: have a policy, clearly shown in the store, that says we will consider all orders in conjuction with events already scheduled, with no promise to perform unless the schedule permits.

That would work, I think, for photographers as well - just tell them you'll check your schedule before committing.

[hawaii 5-0]

So what did he do 5-0?

Did he refuse to place 2 male figurines on top of a cake?


He became a minister out of the back of some magazine and started his own 'Church' on the Big Island, based on the ceremony of smoking the heavenly herb.

He also had a major growing and distribution business going on till he was busted.

The Court didn't buy his 'pot is religious' argument. I think he's out on probation now, biding his time.

5-0

[badger]

The pot from 20 years ago was probably less dangerous than alcohol at that time(I say "probably"). But today the THC level in marijuana is 30+ times the level of 20 years ago. There is more research showing that at those levels there is serious central nervous system sequelae happening from both short term and long term use. I think the decision to throw open the market in the states where the referendums passed was very short sighted. There should have been a lot more thought and control go into the decision. The level and potency of the THC in the products available to the public needed to be contolled and limited.

And it absolutely is a fact that increased supply and access of marijuana in these states will mean easier access to minors. I don't see how you can deny that.

A recent ORU graduate apparently went to Colorado, ate several pot edibles in a short period of time and died of overdose. Apparently didn't feel the buzz after one so went ahead and ate a few more :(

I cannot believe that just as we're starting to get a handle on big tobacco we're opening Pandora's box to big marijuana instead.


Final Four in Indianapolis this weekend. I'm thinking that's not good timing for the stick to your guns crowd

Indiana must go into damage control mode and fast (and they already appear well on their way with the governor demanding clarification on the law before Final Four day this Friday). If anything, this can disprove the notion that business have the right to refuse service to anyone. It's an age old phase, much like freedom of speech making people think they can say anything they want without consequence.

No, you cannot refuse to serve anyone. Think you can stick a "whites only" sign on your door just like pre-60s?

No, free speech does not guarantee you the right to say what you want without consquence. Death threats? Joking that there's a bomb on an airplane? Haha. Very funny.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

BUSINESS OWNERS TAKE NOTE! Best you put any religious prohibitions on the back burner regarding business/customers, when it comes to dealing with homosexual marriages.

[badger]

To clarify --- it's not that what Indiana's proposing is illegal, it's what they're doing is basically ensuring a national boycott of the state.


Federal laws prohibit discrimination based on a person's national origin, race, color, religion, disability, sex, and familial status.

Laws may someday expand to include sexual orientation, but right now, nationally, there's no law that says that businesses can't refuse based on being gay. I think some states have included sexual orientation, hence some lawsuits elsewhere on gay wedding and such.

Indiana (and now Arkansas) risk going down the same path that led to gay marriages in Oklahoma. Our state made a law making same sex marriage illegal, which was declared unconstitutional and thus, gay marriages in Oklahoma. I'm not saying I'm against it, I'm saying that going out on a limb this far is basically going down the same path. If Oklahoma had just stuck its head in the sand or had county clerks go LA LA LA LA LA everytime a gay couple asked for a marriage license instead of making a law about it, would we have gay marriage here now? Probably not.

As such...


BUSINESS OWNERS TAKE NOTE! Best you put any religious prohibitions on the back burner regarding business/customers, when it comes to dealing with homosexual marriages.

^^^what rush said

[Turd_Ferguson]

"Boycotting a state"? Good luck with that. This **** will blow over in a short while. Corporations are not gonna move and peeps will still spend money. Get real.

[okie52]

"Boycotting a state"? Good luck with that. This **** will blow over in a short while. Corporations are not gonna move and peeps will still spend money. Get real.

It was a real knee slapper when LA was going to boycott AZ over it's immigration law

[SicEmBaylor]

If I am freely willing to enter and spend money in a yankee state then I think everyone else can get over the Indiana ****.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Businesses that are called out by the gay marriage lobby, even if their objection is legitimately religious, are likely boycotted by many people, just so those people will not be harassed due to association with that boycotted and highly publicized business.

[BoulderSooner79]

Businesses that are called out by the gay marriage lobby, even if their objection is legitimately religious, are likely boycotted by many people, just so those people will not be harassed due to association with that boycotted and highly publicized business.

And I'm one of those people. I'm sure as heck not getting crossways with a group of lesbians - they can be mean and they scare me.

[Turd_Ferguson]

And I'm one of those people. I'm sure as heck not getting crossways with a group of lesbians - they can be mean and they scare me.

I thought you were gay blind?

[BoulderSooner79]

I thought you were gay blind?

That's a good one, but I can teach a parrot to repeat short phrases too.

[Eielson]

That's a good one, but I can teach a parrot to repeat short phrases too.

Prove it.

[Eielson]

UConn told Ollie that he's not allowed to go to the Final Four because it's in Indiana. Wow...

[rock on sooner]

UConn told Ollie that he's not allowed to go to the Final Four because it's in Indiana. Wow...

Report I read said that UConn wouldn't pay for anyone to travel to the
Final Four, didn't say he couldn't go, but I doubt he does.....Indy better
fix that mess or the whole state's economy could collapse....

[Turd_Ferguson]

Report I read said that UConn wouldn't pay for anyone to travel to the
Final Four, didn't say he couldn't go, but I doubt he does.....Indy better
fix that mess or the whole state's economy could collapse....

lmmfao!!!!

[SoonerorLater]

Report I read said that UConn wouldn't pay for anyone to travel to the
Final Four, didn't say he couldn't go, but I doubt he does.....Indy better
fix that mess or the whole state's economy could collapse....

Almost had me there for a moment. April Fools I get it.

[Serenity Now]

Travel already booked, like this, would go through.

[olevetonahill]

Has any one read this law? Or is the whole dayum bunch just doing knee jerk reaction to sensationalist reporting?
I gave a quick search and found nothing much about it except Op-Eds
So if ya have link to a condensed version i'd like to see it,

[Turd_Ferguson]

Has any one read this law? Or is the whole dayum bunch just doing knee jerk reaction to sensationalist reporting?
I gave a quick search and found nothing much about it except Op-Eds
So if ya have link to a condensed version i'd like to see it,

Pretty good piece on it here...http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/03/30/what-will-the-indiana-religious-freedom-law-really-do/?wprss=rss_national

[FaninAma]

I wonder if all those ripping Indiana have any investments in companies that do business in China or any Muslim countries? I wonder if Indiana's human rights record on gays and women is worse than Iran's, Saudi Arabia's, China's, Russia's, or others. Tim Cook from Apple is such a hypocrite.

[Serenity Now]

If Indiana had state protection for LGBT as a protected class then this would be a non issue. They don't and don't appear to be heading there anytime soon.

[BoulderSooner79]

If Indiana had state protection for LGBT as a protected class then this would be a non issue. They don't and don't appear to be heading there anytime soon.

If they did, it would defeat the purpose of the bill. So there's that.

[Serenity Now]

The right claims that this mirrors the federal law and state laws that are similar. The difference is that those states have statutory protection for LGBT as a protected class and they DON'T treat a for profit entity as an individual, a la Hobby Lobby.

[BoulderSooner79]

I wonder if all those ripping Indiana have any investments in companies that do business in China or any Muslim countries? I wonder if Indiana's human rights record on gays and women is worse than Iran's, Saudi Arabia's, China's, Russia's, or others. Tim Cook from Apple is such a hypocrite.

Public pressure on Apple has changed things in China factories that build Apple products. Made conditions a little less horrid. It's reasonable to expect a US based company with a US citizen CEO to have more influence here than those countries you list. The US government, backed by the worlds most powerful military, has limited influence there.

[BoulderSooner79]

Wow. Looks like Asa Hutchinson has a brain - I would have lost that bet. I guess if you're the governor of Ark. and Walmart speaks, you listen.

[badger]

"Boycotting a state"? Good luck with that. This **** will blow over in a short while. Corporations are not gonna move and peeps will still spend money. Get real.

I don't think that the Colts are going to pack up and move, nor will NCAA move their HQ... but future sites of major events like the Super Bowl and Final Four? That's the impact that backlash from this law will have.

Then again, after the fuss the Arizona Cardinals host city had over last season's Super Bowl maybe it won't be a bad thing if the NFL moves its combine, future Super Bowls and such outta Indy

[Turd_Ferguson]

I don't think that the Colts are going to pack up and move, nor will NCAA move their HQ... but future sites of major events like the Super Bowl and Final Four? That's the impact that backlash from this law will have.

Then again, after the fuss the Arizona Cardinals host city had over last season's Super Bowl maybe it won't be a bad thing if the NFL moves its combine, future Super Bowls and such outta Indy

Yeah, I don't see anybody moving anything over this.

[FaninAma]

Public pressure on Apple has changed things in China factories that build Apple products. Made conditions a little less horrid. It's reasonable to expect a US based company with a US citizen CEO to have more influence here than those countries you list. The US government, backed by the worlds most powerful military, has limited influence there.

But I thought the left was all about demanding moral purity and superiority? Isn't that why they condemn Christians....because they espouse a moral and ethical set of principles yet sometimes fall short of upholding those principles themselves? But it is OK for the left to pontificate about morality and ethics yet behave in a manner totally inconsistent with their public pronouncements.

See, that's how the left skirts around the Jesus thing. In principle they agree with what Jesus said and did but they disagree with flawed human beings trying to uphold those principles because they aren't perfect. So nobody can espouse a higher moral/ethical code because nobody can uphold that code perfectly the way Jesus did. To even attempt to uphold the code makes you a hypocrite in the left's eyes.

What was the basis of Mosaic Law? Was it religious or was it an attempt by early Jews to have some rules that promoted an orderly, functioning, self-propagating society? If the later was the real purpose then discouraging the acceptance of homosexual behavior was a legitimate goal and probably still is.

[Serenity Now]

I definitely see businesses needing to hire creative/diverse people NOT moving to Indiana over this or any other red state for that matter. My daughter wants to be a special education teacher. I'm encouraging her to get certified in states other than Oklahoma because what I see on the horizon for our state education system is, to quote the great Clubber Lane, "pain".

[badger]

Yeah, I don't see anybody moving anything over this.

I expect this to be a factor in future decisions, not in ones already made.


My daughter wants to be a special education teacher. I'm encouraging her to get certified in states other than Oklahoma

She'll get paid better in most, if not every, surrounding state. But by all means, get certified as many places as you can so you can seek jobs in more places and have more options if the first one doesn't work out.

I've heard horror stories of first year teachers getting into bad districts and wanting to quit teaching forever afterward. :(

[hawaii 5-0]

Wow. Looks like Asa Hutchinson has a brain - I would have lost that bet. I guess if you're the governor of Ark. and Walmart speaks, you listen.


I guess the CEO of WalMart has some political pull.

Funny how the Indiana Gov wants his legislature to 'fix' the current law. As if it needs fixin' in the first place. He really screwed up on this one. Even his dog pizzed on his leg.

Now he's folding like a cheap suit.


5-0

[Turd_Ferguson]

I definitely see businesses needing to hire creative/diverse people NOT moving to Indiana over this or any other red state for that matter.

Uhm...elaborate please.

[Turd_Ferguson]

I guess the CEO of WalMart has some political pull.

Funny how the Indiana Gov wants his legislature to 'fix' the current law. As if it needs fixin' in the first place. He really screwed up on this one. Even his dog pizzed on his leg.

Now he's folding like a cheap suit.


5-0

Sure...and Scott Walker is going to be recalled...right?

[FaninAma]

I definitely see businesses needing to hire creative/diverse people NOT moving to Indiana over this or any other red state for that matter. My daughter wants to be a special education teacher. I'm encouraging her to get certified in states other than Oklahoma because what I see on the horizon for our state education system is, to quote the great Clubber Lane, "pain".
Yeah, tell her to move to California, Illinois or New York where they're on the brink of bankruptcy.

[hawaii 5-0]

Sure...and Scott Walker is going to be recalled...right?


Stuck record.

Never got off the Short Bus ?

Feel free to prove anything I said was wrong in Post #121. OK, maybe I stretched it on the dog pizzing, but I still may be right on that one too.

5-0

[Tear Down This Wall]

Has any one read this law? Or is the whole dayum bunch just doing knee jerk reaction to sensationalist reporting?
I gave a quick search and found nothing much about it except Op-Eds
So if ya have link to a condensed version i'd like to see it,

It's the same law as in about 30 other states, passed over the past two decades. The difference now is that the fags are even more sensitive than before.

Again, when it comes up, the easiest thing to do is just tell them you're booked for that weekend...and, any other weekend they throw at you. The court can't require you to rearrange your schedule just because a fag wants a cake from your bakery or photos from your photography/video outfit.

It's really easy to put them off legally. So, just do it, please, so they'll pipe down and go somewhere else.

[hawaii 5-0]

Sure...and Scott Walker is going to be recalled...right?


Since you brought the College Dropout's name up here's a little recent tidbit.

http://wcmcoop.com/2015/03/29/wisconsin-republicans-abandoning-scott-walker/

(Some choice comments as you scroll down)

Even his own backers are now seeing the light. What's amazing is that those folks believed the snake oil salesman's pitch.

5-0

[hawaii 5-0]

It's the same law as in about 30 other states, passed over the past two decades. .


A closer look and you'll see it's not the same.

Just another misguiding talking point.

This law defends those that want to show their hatred.

5-0

[BoulderSooner79]

But I thought the left was all about demanding moral purity and superiority? Isn't that why they condemn Christians....because they espouse a moral and ethical set of principles yet sometimes fall short of upholding those principles themselves? But it is OK for the left to pontificate about morality and ethics yet behave in a manner totally inconsistent with their public pronouncements.

See, that's how the left skirts around the Jesus thing. In principle they agree with what Jesus said and did but they disagree with flawed human beings trying to uphold those principles because they aren't perfect. So nobody can espouse a higher moral/ethical code because nobody can uphold that code perfectly the way Jesus did. To even attempt to uphold the code makes you a hypocrite in the left's eyes.

What was the basis of Mosaic Law? Was it religious or was it an attempt by early Jews to have some rules that promoted an orderly, functioning, self-propagating society? If the later was the real purpose then discouraging the acceptance of homosexual behavior was a legitimate goal and probably still is.

I think you directed this to the wrong person, but others are free to discuss. I was only commenting that I didn't see Tim Cook as being hypocritical on this issue; it looked very pragmatic to me. He was pragmatic in responding to pressure to improve human rights in his oversees factories, but he could only do so much. If he demanded they brought working conditions up to developed country standards or moved his business to a developed country, no one would buy his iPhones due to cost. That includes all those folks yelling about the working conditions. Likewise, all he did in this Indiana thing was make a statement to add his voice to a chorus of voices to add impact. I didn't see him closing any Apple stores or stopping web sales to Indiana addresses. It's understandable he would make a statement being gay himself, but he is just one guy even though he is CEO of the world's highest valued company. There is still a board of directors and a zillion stockholders with great power in the company. So if he is a hypocrite by being pragmatic and realizing the limit of his influence, then almost all CEOs of large companies are hypocrites.

[hawaii 5-0]

The 'list of CEOs against Discrimination' is now up to 39. and counting.....

5-0

[SicEmBaylor]

The 'list of CEOs against Discrimination' is now up to 39. and counting.....

5-0

Who exactly is *for* discrimination?

[Turd_Ferguson]

Who exactly is *for* discrimination?

Anybody that doesn't follow the pu$$y a$$ lib's line of thinking...

[Turd_Ferguson]

The 'list of CEOs against Discrimination' is now up to 39. and counting.....

5-0

Oh boy! This is gonna be just like you Recall Scott Walker thread!!! I can't wait!!!

[Tear Down This Wall]

A closer look and you'll see it's not the same.

Just another misguiding talking point.

This law defends those that want to show their hatred.

5-0

No. It's the same. The difference has nothing to do with that law, but that Indiana has not yet pandered to its few fags to pass a law specific to discrimination against them.

And, that's good. Less fags, less AIDS.

[BoulderSooner79]

No. It's the same. The difference has nothing to do with that law, but that Indiana has not yet pandered to its few fags to pass a law specific to discrimination against them.

And, that's good. Less fags, less AIDS.

Dang, I was so close to agreeing with you. I especially agree with your statement that there are so many legal ways to avoid doing business with any particular customer, that this law is unnecessary.

Then you throw in that last line above and totally justify all the public outrage. Somehow a law is going to result in less fags? And that is a noble purpose for a law? At least you are honest and that's a step above legislators claiming that this law in no way intended to those things.

[Eielson]

I'm here for the talking parrots.

[FaninAma]

Since you brought the College Dropout's name up here's a little recent tidbit.

http://wcmcoop.com/2015/03/29/wisconsin-republicans-abandoning-scott-walker/

(Some choice comments as you scroll down)

Even his own backers are now seeing the light. What's amazing is that those folks believed the snake oil salesman's pitch.

5-0
If you voted for Obama twice you have no room to talk about anybody else's candidate being a snake oil salesman.

[FaninAma]

The 'list of CEOs against Discrimination' is now up to 39. and counting.....

5-0
So are CEO's of large corporations now the moral compass of the left? Is that really a horse you want to saddle up and ride?

[Eielson]

RAND PAUL 2016

[rock on sooner]

Sure...and Scott Walker is going to be recalled...right?

Welp, maybe not, but some of his detractors have gone so far as to
take out full page ads in Iowa's biggest newspaper telling Iowans to
not trust him, to challenge him and to send him packing...pretty strong
stuff. Ya know, he avoided recall by being protected (by statute) against
any recall efforts outspending him (he spent money 7 to 1 against his
opponent). IMO, he's going to be like each of the Pubs last time that took
a turn being a leader in the polls...hell, even Trump was....jus sayin..

[Eielson]

RAND PAUL 2016

I want to hear a parrot say this.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I'm here for the talking parrots.They've got their minds numbed down rilly rilly good

[hawaii 5-0]

Who exactly is *for* discrimination?


At the private signing ceremony (he didn't even have the guts to sign it in public) there's a nice group around the Gov that would fit your category. Most looked like pretty strange rangers.

5-0

[hawaii 5-0]

No. It's the same. .


Here's why it's different.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/what-makes-indianas-religious-freedom-law-different/388997/


or, here's another one.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2015/03/31/is-the-controversial-indiana-law-the-same-as-a-law-backed-by-obama/


Similar does NOT equal same. Please learn the difference.

5-0

[hawaii 5-0]

So are CEO's of large corporations now the moral compass of the left? Is that really a horse you want to saddle up and ride?


Ever heard of Cummins Engines ?

I wouldn't think of them as a leftist corporation. Neither would I think of the WalMart folks.

Fortune 500 Companies are probably more concerned with the Almighty Dollar as their bottom line. Being discriminatory is bad for business.

5-0

[olevetonahill]

At the private signing ceremony (he didn't even have the guts to sign it in public) there's a nice group around the Gov that would fit your category.
Most looked like pretty strange rangers.

5-0

Ya reckon they were Rump rangers?

[hawaii 5-0]

Ya reckon they were Rump rangers?

LOL

They looked like a bunch of religious cultists. And some nuns. There should be a pic on the 'Net.

5-0

[olevetonahill]

LOL

They looked like a bunch of religious cultists. And some nuns. There should be a pic on the 'Net.

5-0

I dont really care LOL

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Quote Originally Posted by hawaii 5-0
They looked like a bunch of religious cultists. And some nuns. There should be a pic on the 'Net.
I dont really care LOLDemocrats are fighting America's real enemy, in their view. Nothing new.

[Serenity Now]

The ignorance and the gran torino old man lingo is dripping from this thread.

Oklahoma legislators are trying to continue to suck funding out of the public schools. Uess we get people in office more concerned about our children then we are screwed. Our leaders are more concerned with giving the Feds the finger and playing to the base. Sharia law is a great example. Additionally, we spend millions defending unconstitutional legislation or suing Colorado over their states laws.

[FaninAma]

The leftists have essentially won the culture war. I am going to sit back and watch the results. It should be entertaining.

Serenity, the thing you and most statists don't seem to understand is that no amount of government spending can ensure that children get a good education. I am sure the inner cities in NYC and Chicago get a ****load of funding. Education starts at home with parents being involved. If parents are involved with their school system the kids will do well. If not then you will get the same results as the public urban schools. Do you favor school choice?

[SoonerorLater]

the gran torino old man lingo is dripping from this thread.

You make it sound like that is a bad thing.

[badger]

I wonder how poor Kevin Wilson is faring on the recruiting trail. "Oh coach I'd love to be an Indiana Hoosier, but every other Big Ten coach has told me how unwelcoming your state is after this new law.."

yes of course I'm kidding. recruits wouldn't want to go play football at Indy Hoo Hoo land regardless of the laws :P

[FaninAma]

Homosexuality is normal in the sense that it's just a genetic quirk no different than someone being born with a birthmark.
No it's not. The human genome has been mapped to an infintesimal level and no gay gene sequence has ever been identified. There are plenty of documented studies of identical twins where one is gay and the other is not. Personally I could GAS about gays getting married although I do think it is a question best decided by voters and not the court system. Marriage is what you make of it. No group has the single best answer on what makes a marriage successful. But I do get tired of the misinformation that comes out in the name of tolerance.

Like I said, the culture war (with the exception of abortion) is over and the left has won. We will see how the results play out.

[Serenity Now]

The leftists have essentially won the culture war. I am going to sit back and watch the results. It should be entertaining.

Serenity, the thing you and most statists don't seem to understand is that no amount of government spending can ensure that children get a good education. I am sure the inner cities in NYC and Chicago get a ****load of funding. Education starts at home with parents being involved. If parents are involved with their school system the kids will do well. If not then you will get the same results as the public urban schools. Do you favor school choice?I favor what's best for the kids as a whole. I know that allowing people to pull their funding out of the state's system to put it into the private system or into their own pockets via "home schooling" will only serve to drag the current system down further. My kids go to a great public school in a town where people relocate due to the schools. Said school had to cut 25 teachers a few years ago. They're slowly recovered but it appears that they are likely going to have to do the same thing next year and class sizes will have to be 25-35. I generally agree with you about parental involvement.

My wife is a college instructor and she says that the group of kids that show up in their classes having home schooled are not ready to go to college. I'm sure there are some great home schooled kids but there are a bunch more that aren't.

[FaninAma]

I favor what's best for the kids as a whole. I know that allowing people to pull their funding out of the state's system to put it into the private system or into their own pockets via "home schooling" will only serve to drag the current system down further. My kids go to a great public school in a town where people relocate due to the schools. Said school had to cut 25 teachers a few years ago. They're slowly recovered but it appears that they are likely going to have to do the same thing next year and class sizes will have to be 25-35. I generally agree with you about parental involvement.

My wife is a college instructor and she says that the group of kids that show up in their classes having home schooled are not ready to go to college. I'm sure there are some great home schooled kids but there are a bunch more that aren't.

So despite your other posts and admonitions to your daughter you do think there are some decent public schools in Oklahoma? I will agree with you about home schooling....most parents aren't up to the task and home schooled kids have a a lot of problems adjusting to the college environment. There are of course exceptions to this generality.

The flip side of your argument about vouchers is that your position essentially traps kids in a poor school system who would otherwise benefit greatly from having an opportunity to attend aq better school system. And how would it drag down some schools? All families would get the same amount via their vouchers which means the school system has the same amount of funding per pupil to work with. Are you suggesting that some schools would be left with unmotivated students and parents? If so then that is the whole point about school choice....to let motivated students and parents obtain the best education for their kids.

[Serenity Now]

Quit being a quasi-jackass. I've got a 5th grader and two in high school in Eastern Oklahoma. I've lived in/around here for 48 years less the time that I spent in Norman/OKC getting educated in OK Schools. My kids are in wonderful schools. If they weren't I'd move. I want my daughter to get paid well and to work in an environment that values teachers. I'm not sure Oklahoma is going to be that place in the next decade. She's wanted to be a Special Ed teacher since 4th grade.

Vouchers are about the private sector trying to pull money out of the public sector. Fix what we have instead of trying to better fund Victory Christian to do it so that we can go learn about a 6,000 year old earth absent any evolution.

[olevetonahill]

Quit being a quasi-jackass. I've got a 5th grader and two in high school in Eastern Oklahoma. I've lived in/around here for 48 years less the time that I spent in Norman/OKC getting educated in OK Schools. My kids are in wonderful schools. If they weren't I'd move. I want my daughter to get paid well and to work in an environment that values teachers. I'm not sure Oklahoma is going to be that place in the next decade. She's wanted to be a Special Ed teacher since 4th grade.

Vouchers are about the private sector trying to pull money out of the public sector. Fix what we have instead of trying to better fund Victory Christian to do it so that we can go learn about a 6,000 year old earth absent any evolution.

Pot? meet Kettle!

[Serenity Now]

Pot? meet Kettle!

As the great Sheriff Buford T. Justice said, "do the letters..."

Dude stated that I thought Oklahoma schools were poor because I was telling my daughter to get certified in another state implying that I was somehow speaking out of both sides of my mouth. That was not why I was telling her to get certified in another state. I don't see pretty things for schools in Oklahoma in my crystal ball. Arkansas and Texas both pay teachers at least 20% more now before the theocrats get ahold of the system.

[olevetonahill]

As the great Sheriff Buford T. Justice said, "do the letters..."

Dude stated that I thought Oklahoma schools were poor because I was telling my daughter to get certified in another state implying that I was somehow speaking out of both sides of my mouth. That was not why I was telling her to get certified in another state. I don't see pretty things for schools in Oklahoma in my crystal ball. Arkansas and Texas both pay teachers at least 20% more now before the theocrats get ahold of the system.

Wernt commentin about what ya said about Schools
I were commenting about this statement you made!


Quit being a quasi-jackass.

[Serenity Now]

Wernt commentin about what ya said about Schools
I were commenting about this statement you made!I try to treat people as they treat me.

[FaninAma]

I definitely see businesses needing to hire creative/diverse people NOT moving to Indiana over this or any other red state for that matter. My daughter wants to be a special education teacher. I'm encouraging her to get certified in states other than Oklahoma because what I see on the horizon for our state education system is, to quote the great Clubber Lane, "pain".

I took the bolded section as indicating you had a generally negative impression about Oklahoma Schools. Maybe you can enlighten and instruct us on how we were SUPPOSED to interpret this statement. TIA.

[olevetonahill]

I try to treat people as they treat me.

So you dont ever want to take the High road

[Serenity Now]

Ifn I were moving out of state for my children's education, you'd be correct. As it is I'm advising my child to be prepared to work in another state as the leaders in this one intend to screw her.

I just take the road I'm offered.

[SicEmBaylor]

So you dont ever want to take the High road

http://funnyinternetmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Aziz-Ansari-On-Taking-The-Low-Road-Telling-Others-To-Take-The-High-Road.png

[TAFBSooner]

What was the basis of Mosaic Law? Was it religious or was it an attempt by early Jews to have some rules that promoted an orderly, functioning, self-propagating society? If the later was the real purpose then discouraging the acceptance of homosexual behavior was a legitimate goal and probably still is.

Behavioral rules are practical for somebody when they're put in place. If they're not practical for everybody, then the rulers decree they're religious rulings so that they can enforce them.

Homosexual behavior, along with masturbation and any other form of non-reproductive sex, is prohibited by the Old Testament. The prohibition is all very practical when your tribe is trying to survive in a harsh, Stone Age, desert environment. I don't see how it's so relevant today, when we don't need every last possible additional baby. Is it the effect on the birth rate that makes homosexual behavior counter to "an orderly, functioning, self-propagating society?" Or something else?

[Serenity Now]

Learned two things from this.

1. references in the bible to eunichs are thought to be references to homosexuals.
2. That gov from Arkansas is no dummy. Walmart was against it and his son "signed a petition" and asked him not to sign it. Which one changed his mind? That guy has much more of a future than that idiot Tom cotton.

[okie52]

Learned two things from this.

1. references in the bible to eunichs are thought to be references to homosexuals.
2. That gov from Arkansas is no dummy. Walmart was against it and his son "signed a petition" and asked him not to sign it. Which one changed his mind? That guy has much more of a future than that idiot Tom cotton.

Tom Cotton...isn't he the rookie senator that defeated the 2 term incumbent dem senator Mark Pryor by 17% last November?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Tom Cotton...isn't he the rookie senator that defeated the 2 term incumbent dem senator Mark Pryor by 17% last November?Why else would one of our resident Libs call him an idiot?

[Serenity Now]

Tom Cotton...isn't he the rookie senator that defeated the 2 term incumbent dem senator Mark Pryor by 17% last November?

He's the one who led the treasonous movement to "educate" Iran, ironically, inaccurately about our government. He's a fear mongering hawk who spoke at a defense industry event just days later.

[okie52]

He's the one who led the treasonous movement to "educate" Iran, ironically, inaccurately about our government. He's a fear mongering hawk who spoke at a defense industry event just days later.

One of those 47 traitors? I'm sure Arkansas voters will punish him severely.

Speaking at a defense industry event is bad?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

One of those 47 traitors? I'm sure Arkansas voters will punish him severely.

Speaking at a defense industry event is bad?American defense = American aggression. (unless the president is a democrat)

[Serenity Now]

The "war" against Afghanistan was fully supported by the American people and bipartisan leadership. The efforts against Iraq were not. We were sold a war based upon lies that many of us bought into or were bullied into by Hitler/Chamberlain/Churchill references. The tip of the spear in that campaign was Collin Powell. They are here again to some extent.

Cotton does what he did and then speaks (inferred that he received a speaking fee $) at a defense contractors event. A comparison might be something akin to this: Senator makes a movement against the environmental movement. Days later he speaks/accepts money from the oil industry. It smells funny. If our defense system were underfunded and we needed to be ready for some new threat that would be one thing. This is the same "threat" that Bibi warned us about in 1997 when he said that Iran was less than a year away from having nukes. In case some of you need a refresher, that was 18 years ago. Children born then are graduation high school and some are likely serving in the armed forces. He's so arrogant that he doesn't even care if people see how clear his financial motives are. He got $1 million from the Israelis.

They don't want peace. Peace has a very low margin.

[Turd_Ferguson]

The "war" against Afghanistan was fully supported by the American people and bipartisan leadership. The efforts against Iraq were not. We were sold a war based upon lies that many of us bought into or were bullied into by Hitler/Chamberlain/Churchill references. The tip of the spear in that campaign was Collin Powell. They are here again to some extent.

Cotton does what he did and then speaks (inferred that he received a speaking fee $) at a defense contractors event. A comparison might be something akin to this: Senator makes a movement against the environmental movement. Days later he speaks/accepts money from the oil industry. It smells funny. If our defense system were underfunded and we needed to be ready for some new threat that would be one thing. This is the same "threat" that Bibi warned us about in 1997 when he said that Iran was less than a year away from having nukes. In case some of you need a refresher, that was 18 years ago. Children born then are graduation high school and some are likely serving in the armed forces. He's so arrogant that he doesn't even care if people see how clear his financial motives are. He got $1 million from the Israelis.

They don't want peace. Peace has a very low margin.

LMAO!!!

[Serenity Now]

LMAO!!!
Want to discuss what is so humorous? If that makes you laugh you've been watching too much of your favorite channel and slowly stroking it to Meghan Kelly too much.

[okie52]

The "war" against Afghanistan was fully supported by the American people and bipartisan leadership. The efforts against Iraq were not. We were sold a war based upon lies that many of us bought into or were bullied into by Hitler/Chamberlain/Churchill references. The tip of the spear in that campaign was Collin Powell. They are here again to some extent.

Cotton does what he did and then speaks (inferred that he received a speaking fee $) at a defense contractors event. A comparison might be something akin to this: Senator makes a movement against the environmental movement. Days later he speaks/accepts money from the oil industry. It smells funny. If our defense system were underfunded and we needed to be ready for some new threat that would be one thing. This is the same "threat" that Bibi warned us about in 1997 when he said that Iran was less than a year away from having nukes. In case some of you need a refresher, that was 18 years ago. Children born then are graduation high school and some are likely serving in the armed forces. He's so arrogant that he doesn't even care if people see how clear his financial motives are. He got $1 million from the Israelis.

They don't want peace. Peace has a very low margin.

Wait now...are you saying W didn't blow up the trade centers because we have a lot of truthers out there that still think he was behind it and the Afghanistan war was a bush conspiracy?

If so many dems et al feel betrayed and/or that they were lied to by W on Iraq then they should have brought him And his cohorts up on charges. I didn't see them do a thing. If his lies were so egregious it would seem they would have at least made some movement to prosecute the guilty parties when they had the congress and the presidency yet they did nothing.

You find cottons behavior abnormal or "smelly" but that's been the game in DC for many decades and on both sides. I would have been much more astonished to see a left winger speaking to a defense contractor or a righty speaking to environmental group since they are usually on opposite sides of those issues. A hawk speaking to a defense contractor is no different than obama speaking to enviro groups and then funding Solyndra.

you find bibis statement absurd yet we had a former VP and presidential candidate touting models showing the North Pole was going to melt by 2012 and hes been in the hip pockets of the green energy industry for the last 2 decades.

[Serenity Now]

Wait now...are you saying W didn't blow up the trade centers because we have a lot of truthers out there that still think he was behind it and the Afghanistan war was a bush conspiracy?

If so many dems et al feel betrayed and/or that they were lied to by W on Iraq then they should have brought him And his cohorts up on charges. I didn't see them do a thing. If his lies were so agregious it would seem they would have at least made some movement to prosecute the guilty parties when they had the congress and the presidency yet they did nothing.

You find cottons behavior abnormal or "smelly" but that's been the game in DC for many decades and on both sides. I would have been much more astonished to see a left winger speaking to a defense contractor or a righty speaking to environmental group since they are usually on opposite sides of those issues. A hawk speaking to a defense contractor is no different than obama speaking to enviro groups and then funding Solyndra.

you find bibis statement absurd yet we had a former VP and presidential candidate touting models showing the North Pole was going to melt by 2012 and hes been in the hip pockets of the green energy industry for the last 2 decades.I think truthers are idgets. I think we were all on board with Afghanistan. I think WITH THE BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT that Iraq was a mistake. It would have been less of one if we had been told the truth. I said at the time that the course of action was a two decade one.

Bibi said it 18 years ago. Then he said it again and we all lose our **** over it. Can't we look at his history? Maybe he's using us? How dim are we?

That former VP is the reason invoted for W in 2000.

[okie52]

Bibi is not surprising to me...I expect most PMs of Israel to be more suspicious and wary of Iran than the facts may dictate. I imagine the U.S. would be pretty suspicious of a country that has continuously vowed to wipe us off of the earth.

Our job is to rationally and objectively view the facts and follow a policy that is best for the U.S....not necessarily what's best for Israel or Iran.

[SicEmBaylor]

This Iranian deal and the steps toward normalizing relations with Cuba are the two best things this Administration has done in the 6+ years he's been in office.

Getting a deal with Iran is 100% the right thing to do, no question.

[BoulderSooner79]

This Iranian deal and the steps toward normalizing relations with Cuba are the two best things this Administration has done in the 6+ years he's been in office.

Getting a deal with Iran is 100% the right thing to do, no question.

^This exactly! This is not a political issue (or shouldn't be). If we are going to continue to be primary players in the middle east, we need to have some sort of relationship with Iran. The current situation reflects questionable actions by the US with the Shah and the incredibly stupid hostage thing on Iran's part. If anything good came out of the Shah thing is that we learned that the Iranian culture is much more compatible with the US culture than is Saudi Arabia. Or at least less uncompatible. I'm not saying we should be buddy-buddy as that is not going to happen, but we should not appear to take sides in this Sunni/Shia tussle. If the Saudi royals ever fell from power, we would be the enemy of every country over there.

[badger]

This Iranian deal and the steps toward normalizing relations with Cuba are the two best things this Administration has done in the 6+ years he's been in office.

Getting a deal with Iran is 100% the right thing to do, no question

While I voted for W a few presidential elections ago, John Kerry seems to be doing a much better job as sec of state than his predecessor.

While both the current previous presidents have their critics and rightfully so, both of their cabinet appointments have their highlights

[SicEmBaylor]

While I voted for W a few presidential elections ago, John Kerry seems to be doing a much better job as sec of state than his predecessor.

While both the current previous presidents have their critics and rightfully so, both of their cabinet appointments have their highlights

The last time I voted for a Republican for President was in 2004, and I regret that vote. I voted for Bob Barr in 2008 and Gary Johnson in 2012.

[TAFBSooner]

The last time I voted for a Republican for President was in 2004, and I regret that vote. I voted for Bob Barr in 2008 and Gary Johnson in 2012.

At least your fave third party was on the ballot those years.

Not so for the Green Party in Oklahoma.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

At least your fave third party was on the ballot those years.

Not so for the Green Party in Oklahoma.OK is unwise to keep the Green Party off the ballot.

[TAFBSooner]

OK is unwise to keep the Green Party off the ballot.

Oh, I know it would hurt the Democrats a little bit if the Greens were on the ballot. But, at least in 2016, as it stands now I will be voting against someone, not for someone I think deserves the office.

IOW, God, please don't make me vote for Hillary!

[hawaii 5-0]

All politicians are offensive IMO.

I'll vote for the one with a less criminal indictment record.

5-0

[SicEmBaylor]

OK is unwise to keep the Green Party off the ballot.

The state of Oklahoma keeps *every* third party off the ballot because we have the most draconian ballot access laws in the nation. It's ridiculous and must end.

[SicEmBaylor]

Oh, I know it would hurt the Democrats a little bit if the Greens were on the ballot. But, at least in 2016, as it stands now I will be voting against someone, not for someone I think deserves the office.

IOW, God, please don't make me vote for Hillary!

Don't vote for someone you don't believe deserves the office. You're being disrespectful to your own values, and you're doing the Republic no good whatsoever by doing that.

[Serenity Now]

Don't vote for someone you don't believe deserves the office. You're being disrespectful to your own values, and you're doing the Republic no good whatsoever by doing that.Of 3 choices sometimes it's not the best choice but the "least worst". I defended W and Rumsfeld and Powell saying that it was the least worst decision to take out Iraq. Hindsight makes me wrong then.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Don't vote for someone you don't believe deserves the office. You're being disrespectful to your own values, and you're doing the Republic no good whatsoever by doing that.haha

[SicEmBaylor]

haha

Yep encouraging everyone, regardless of ideology, to vote for an individual who shares their values as opposed to voting *against* the other guy is just so freaking funny!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA! F'k me, right?

[olevetonahill]

Don't vote for someone you don't believe deserves the office. You're being disrespectful to your own values, and you're doing the Republic no good whatsoever by doing that.

I've never understood your reasoning behind that statement Lil Bro. You have 2 people who are not worthy of the Office but One is "REALLY REALLY not worthy of it are you sayin to just let the idiots who Might like the really bad dude to pick him/her?
Heres My Thinking . Say Im going to be shot but I have a choice of being shot at close range with a 12 gauge with 00Buck or a 22 loaded with 22 shorts, Which one you gonna Pick? Or are you gonna let someone else choose for you?

[Turd_Ferguson]

I've never understood your reasoning behind that statement Lil Bro. You have 2 people who are not worthy of the Office but One is "REALLY REALLY not worthy of it are you sayin to just let the idiots who Might like the really bad dude to pick him/her?
Heres My Thinking . Say Im going to be shot but I have a choice of being shot at close range with a 12 gauge with 00Buck or a 22 loaded with 22 shorts, Which one you gonna Pick? Or are you gonna let someone else choose for you?

Deuce deuce please. I want to dance around for a few minutes before I'm actually kilt.:D

[SicEmBaylor]

I've never understood your reasoning behind that statement Lil Bro. You have 2 people who are not worthy of the Office but One is "REALLY REALLY not worthy of it are you sayin to just let the idiots who Might like the really bad dude to pick him/her?
Heres My Thinking . Say Im going to be shot but I have a choice of being shot at close range with a 12 gauge with 00Buck or a 22 loaded with 22 shorts, Which one you gonna Pick? Or are you gonna let someone else choose for you?

1)There are more than two choices.
2)Who said that nobody deserves the office?
3)I won't vote for someone who doesn't deserve the office.
4)I'm going to choose not to put myself into a situation whereby the only choice I have is to get shot.

[olevetonahill]

1)There are more than two choices.
2)Who said that nobody deserves the office?
3)I won't vote for someone who doesn't deserve the office.
4)I'm going to choose not to put myself into a situation whereby the only choice I have is to get shot.

that were a Metaphor Ya dumas.
My point being say this next Pres election we have 2 choices lets say Billary or Palen or some weird shat like that. Here we have ONLY those 2 choices. Ima voter fer the one who I think will **** things up the least.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Yep encouraging everyone, regardless of ideology, to vote for an individual who shares their values as opposed to voting *against* the other guy is just so freaking funny!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA! F'k me, right?Your dad is a doctor. Therefore, you should have long time exposure to the motto of "First do no harm". Democrat politicians since JFK have pretty much been all harm, with the exception of Zell Miller. So, keep the friggin democrat from winning the election.

[SicEmBaylor]

that were a Metaphor Ya dumas.
My point being say this next Pres election we have 2 choices lets say Billary or Palen or some weird shat like that. Here we have ONLY those 2 choices. Ima voter fer the one who I think will **** things up the least.

No. You have three choices in Oklahoma. The third option is that you abstain. Simply refuse to vote for someone who doesn't share your values. Nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to vote for some ****head like John F'n McCain or Mr. 1%er Romney. Simply don't vote for that race. That's your option.

I have zero respect for voters who knowingly vote for someone they know shouldn't be in office just to stop the other guy from getting elected who also shouldn't be in office. It has done irreparable harm to the Republic.

[Serenity Now]

Your dad is a doctor. Therefore, you should have long time exposure to the motto of "First do no harm". Democrat politicians since JFK have pretty much been all harm, with the exception of Zell Miller. So, keep the friggin democrat from winning the election.
Thank God we have the republicans!!!!

LOL

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Thank God we have the republicans!!!!

LOLThank? the other side we have democrats!!! not laughing.

[Serenity Now]

I think government works best when there's a balance and they're forced to work together. We've not seen actual cooperation from either side since the Clinton administration and they even had the "vast right wing conspiracy". They did manage to get things done in the 1990s.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I think government works best when there's a balance and they're forced to work together. We've not seen actual cooperation from either side since the Clinton administration and they even had the "vast right wing conspiracy". They did manage to get things done in the 1990s.The republican congress held der Schickster in check. Clinton was an outlaw, but Bear has taken that moniker to new lows, with him ignoring the constitution, and the compliant Media lets him get away with it.

[olevetonahill]

No. You have three choices in Oklahoma. The third option is that you abstain. Simply refuse to vote for someone who doesn't share your values. Nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to vote for some ****head like John F'n McCain or Mr. 1%er Romney. Simply don't vote for that race. That's your option.

I have zero respect for voters who knowingly vote for someone they know shouldn't be in office just to stop the other guy from getting elected who also shouldn't be in office. It has done irreparable harm to the Republic.

You make absolutely NO SENSE,

[TAFBSooner]

No. You have three choices in Oklahoma. The third option is that you abstain. Simply refuse to vote for someone who doesn't share your values. Nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to vote for some ****head like John F'n McCain or Mr. 1%er Romney. Simply don't vote for that race. That's your option.

I have zero respect for voters who knowingly vote for someone they know shouldn't be in office just to stop the other guy from getting elected who also shouldn't be in office. It has done irreparable harm to the Republic.

We need a fourth choice: None of the Above. That way we could all measure the difference between those who can't be bothered and those who can find no one deserving of their vote (aka the apathetic and the disgusted).

However, this is even less likely to pass than better ballot access for third parties. The current crop would be afraid that we'd get very much higher turnout, all voting NOTA, and so demonstrating the depth of disgust for our politicians. It would be the US version of losing the Mandate of Heaven.