looking for a real answer, why is The Leftist negotiating with Aryan, err, Iran?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

i don't get it, the last thing we want is for them to get a bomb. once done SA has said it will get the bomb. A Shi'ite nation and Sunni nation with the bomb will not be good. Discuss...

[SoonerProphet]

Not sure some folks want to hear a "real answer" or to engage in any serious discussion on the topic at hand. The debate has become partisan, vitriolic, and often ends in the gutter. But I'll give it a shot.

For starters, the policy of attempting to roll back Iran's nuclear program to zero capability is a pipe dream. It is the hardliners approach and all evidence over the last few decades points to how ineffective that has been, unless of course the ultimate objective is war. Twice in last decade and a half the Iranians have come to the table and have been rebuffed by maximalist demands. Twice the Iranians increased both centrifuge and enrichment capability. If the maximalist position is implemented Iran will walk again and continue to enhance their capabilities unfettered. Seems smart to try and get deal in place while the iron is hot.

To your point on Iran and SA, I'd offer up the example of Pakistan and India.

If we unilaterally bail, P5+1 could evaporate, the rest of the international community could easily end the sanctions regime, then what.

IMO, if a reasonable deal can be done that limits uranium measures, places heavy inspections on heavy water reactor and plutonium development, and the ability to monitor trigger mechanism and various other weapons related items, then it should be done.

[SoonerProphet]

Troll response:

The same fearmongers and war profiteers who sold this country up the river on the naive idea of whatever the hell it was in Iraq are the same clueless f*cks squawking now. With just how wrong they were then, I am baffled as to why they have any credibility now.

[Soonerjeepman]

SP,
a serious question...

How willing will Iran be to ALLOW any of those inspections? be truthful in what they have? Even our own government has secrets...(which I agree sometimes needs to happen - another thread lol)

The Iranian stances on destroying other countries is pretty blatant.

Trusting Iran to allow those inspections and be truthful is not a guarantee. The argument is neither is life so ya just have to give it a shot or that the hardline stance isn't working either, so what's the best option...

[okie52]

Nothing wrong with having discussions with the Iranians and see what they are willing to agree to "trade" for not making nukes.

Credibility for Obamas deal making capabilities should naturally be questioned after the Bo bergdahl trade. We didn't come out in Libya smelling like a rose or look very good with his line in the sand for Syria.

You don't have to be an interventionist to be concerned about what obama might trade away. Hell, he just committed the U.S. to reducing its CO2 while China wasn't required to do anything for the next 16 years. That's not exactly the guy I'd want playing my hand in poker.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Hmmm...I think the scorpion/frog story comes to mind.

[SoonerProphet]

SP,
a serious question...

How willing will Iran be to ALLOW any of those inspections? be truthful in what they have? Even our own government has secrets...(which I agree sometimes needs to happen - another thread lol)

The Iranian stances on destroying other countries is pretty blatant.

Trusting Iran to allow those inspections and be truthful is not a guarantee. The argument is neither is life so ya just have to give it a shot or that the hardline stance isn't working either, so what's the best option...

Iran is currently the most heavily inspected nation under the IAEA.

According to the Safeguards Implementation Report of 2013, Iran had a total of 17 nuclear facilities under safeguards. The number of inspections was 211. The total cost for this monitoring was 12.5 million euros ($14 million), or 12% of the total cost of IAEA safeguards allocated by the state.

In comparison, Japan, with 125 nuclear facilities under safeguards, underwent 314 inspections at a total cost of 17.7 million euros ($19.8 million). South Korea, with 44 facilities under safeguards, and a history of undeclared nuclear activities, underwent 77 inspections. And in South Africa — with a history of murky nuclear activities — the IAEA carried out 78 inspections of the country’s 17 facilities under safeguards.

While the system may not be perfect, it is the best we have.

Iranian rhetoric about Israel is a much discussed and debated topic. Politicians play to their base, we see it all the time, it is no different there, plenty of hate for the Great Satan. If you ask me it doesn't sound that much different from the bellicose boilerplate coming from Sen. Cotton.

You are right, ain't nothing guaranteed. I'll stand by my statement, if we can get a deal like I mentioned I'd think that is the best. Otherwise you are setting the nation up for war.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/02/iran-nuclear-agreement-iaea.html#

[SoonerProphet]

Nothing wrong with having discussions with the Iranians and see what they are willing to agree to "trade" for not making nukes.

Credibility for Obamas deal making capabilities should naturally be questioned after the Bo bergdahl trade. We didn't come out in Libya smelling like a rose or look very good with his line in the sand for Syria.

You don't have to be an interventionist to be concerned about what obama might trade away. Hell, he just committed the U.S. to reducing its CO2 while China wasn't required to do anything for the next 16 years. That's not exactly the guy I'd want playing my hand in poker.

I can't argue against the fact that us diplomacy and foreign policy has been completely f*cked for the last several decades. Seems to me that would offer up the choice of continued stupidly or perhaps the option of trying something different.

[Serenity Now]

Louie gohmert was quoted this week that we need to bomb Iran. They are not the only ones using poor rhetoric.

[okie52]

A little surprising McCain and graham haven't also demanded military intervention...or maybe I missed that.

[okie52]

I can't argue against the fact that us diplomacy and foreign policy has been completely f*cked for the last several decades. Seems to me that would offer up the choice of continued stupidly or perhaps the option of trying something different.

I'm sure I'm not alone in being tired of the US police force mentality. Diplomacy should always be the preferred course IMO unless it follows the Neville Chamberlain type that ignores reality.

[Serenity Now]

They lost me with "shock and awe". Horrible group at predicting outcomes. They did a good job of creating jihadists, though.

Still better at predictions than Bibi.

[okie52]

Glad you said jihadists and not terrorists...obama wouldn't have known who you were talking about.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

SP, Appreciate the responses. Most of the time, I would let negotiating take its turn to see what happens. Here, I do not see it working. They have been very hard line since their Islamic fundamentalist revolution. I see that they think of themselves as the leader of a Pan-Persia, Pan-Arabia just like they did during WWII and the coutnry support of Nazi Germany. To that end, the bomb will help them become that. At least with the Shah, there was a Western style leader who had a secular country. Iran is dangerous now, see what they have done with sanctions in place. They will be more dangerous with the bomb.

I either see military action or a total embargo. Why Russia wants to help them, I have no clue. They would turn on them as well. Though Russia wouldn't blink to show retribution should they do something to them...

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Bear is a twice over mistake made by the American people. Ratcheting back from all of his disgusting and chaotic acts will take a long time, and be painful, in who knows how many ways.

[Serenity Now]

Bear is a twice over mistake made by the American people. Ratcheting back from all of his disgusting and chaotic acts will take a long time, and be painful, in who knows how many ways.i mean look at how many decades we wars going to have heal up over bush/Cheney.

[ouwasp]

A question that no one has the answer to is this: Exactly how devout are the Iranian Shiites in their belief of the return of the 12th Imam? If they truly believe Israel must be destroyed to usher in their savior, no amount of UN inspectors or sanctions will deter them from seeking a bomb. And the true believers won't be concerned with an existential threat either; that's what a savior is for, deliverance.

President Obama and John Kerry choose to try and find a secular solution. This is a bit of a twist to our usual Iran policy:

Sit on hands.
Now wring hands.
Repeat.

In the meantime, crowds in Tehran chant: DEATH TO AMERICA!

But, there is always the chance this will end well and we'll all live happily ever after.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

we wars going to have heal up over bush/Cheney.yeah, that's really astute, and predictable haha

[Sooner8th]

yeah, that's really astute, and predictable hahaTruth hurts doesn't it?

[Serenity Now]

yeah, that's really astute, and predictable haha
Its in the thread because it's true. Hindsight of course but Iraq has been a horrible morass. AQ's goal was to use 9/11 to draw us more fully into the Middle East. Knowing that doing so would generate people against us. They were playing chess. We were playing checkers. We need to start playing chess.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Its in the thread because it's true. Hindsight of course but Iraq has been a horrible morass. AQ's goal was to use 9/11 to draw us more fully into the Middle East. Knowing that doing so would generate people against us. They were playing chess. We were playing checkers. We need to start playing chess.


Uhm yeah, I think you're reaching there...Them stupid goat ****ers know one thing...kill 'merican's/non-mooslens...They don't know **** about chess.

[TAFBSooner]

Hindsight of course

Agree with your post, but that phrase is too kind. Except for W himself, the Cheney administration knew what they were doing and where it would lead.

Ironically enough, the CIA invented the word blowback.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Agree with your post, but that phrase is too kind. Except for W himself, the Cheney administration knew what they were doing and where it would lead.

Ironically enough, the CIA invented the word blowback.

Guess you must've been in the situation room with Cheney and company...Please, tell us more.

[Serenity Now]

Halliburton & Co. Did pretty well. Just liketom cotton speaking at a defense contractors thing a few days after that silly letter.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

SP, all your arguements went out the window today. Kerry, The Leftist and all of Europe are ready to allow Aryan to continue to centrifuge uranium in underground protected bunkers. No doubt is left that the Persians want the bomb and The Leftist will allow them to have the bomb. The is, unless The Leftist was secretly able to incorporate explosive devices into the contruction of the underground bunkers and can implode them at will once they have full production going... Doubt that.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

...Iraq has been a horrible morass. AQ's goal was to use 9/11 to draw us more fully into the Middle East. Knowing that doing so would generate people against us. They were playing chess. We were playing checkers. We need to start playing chess.The Islamists weren't playing anything. They engaged in an act of war on the USA on 9-11-01. We p*ssyfooted, and have continued to do so, in response to their slaughter of Americans and American property. We can thank the PC crowd for that, the Media, big Entertainment and the Public Schools. Sounds like we agree on that set of events.

[SoonerProphet]

SP, all your arguements went out the window today. Kerry, The Leftist and all of Europe are ready to allow Aryan to continue to centrifuge uranium in underground protected bunkers. No doubt is left that the Persians want the bomb and The Leftist will allow them to have the bomb. The is, unless The Leftist was secretly able to incorporate explosive devices into the contruction of the underground bunkers and can implode them at will once they have full production going... Doubt that.

Link?

I've read that the issue at Fordo would end uranium enrichment there in exchange for enrichment at Natanz. Again, if you think any deal can get done allowing zero enrichment then it is a non-starter for Iran. Claims about an impending nuclear armed Iran are a bit hyperbolic.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

just google AP

[Serenity Now]

The last 13 years we have "*****footed"? Come on Rumsfeld. We have killed SIGNIFICANTLY more innocents than AQ. And, in doing so, we created a ****load of jihadists seeking revenge - exactly what they wanted. Bin laden was like Patton looking through he binoculars taunting Rommel "I read your book!"

I think our efforts in Afghanistan were fine. Hindsight indicates that we got out over our skis in Iraq.

Public schools? WTF? Please detail that for me.

[SoonerProphet]

just google AP

This one?

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2015/mar/27/ap-exclusive-iran-may-run-centrifuges-at/

The United States is considering letting Tehran run hundreds of centrifuges at a once-secret, fortified underground bunker in exchange for limits on centrifuge work and research and development at other sites, officials have told The Associated Press

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

The last 13 years we have "*****footed"? Come on Rumsfeld. We have killed SIGNIFICANTLY more innocents than AQ. And, in doing so, we created a ****load of jihadists seeking revenge - exactly what they wanted. Bin laden was like Patton looking through he binoculars taunting Rommel "I read your book!"

I think our efforts in Afghanistan were fine. Hindsight indicates that we got out over our skis in Iraq.

Public schools? WTF? Please detail that for me.What a horsesh*t post!! and I was hoping you were starting to turn on some lights.:frown:

[Serenity Now]

Whatever, you're the one blaming the public schools for the problems in the middle east - Those damned small school superintendents!!!!

We ran through Afghanistan and Iraq with extreme prejudice. I was (and am) OK with the first part of that but not the second part (with the benefit of hindsight...which I can admit). The problem is that we created a vacuum that has been filled by people who are worse than who was there. I don't know what I said that is horse****. Maybe someone other than you should highlight it as you might have some objectivity issues.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Maybe someone other than you should highlight it as you might have some objectivity issues.ah, the stupid card. They jest cain't hep it!

[Serenity Now]

ah, the stupid card. They jest cain't hep it!
I was referring to your lack of objectivity with me, in particular, not your intellect. But, maybe you're right. I'll leave that with you.

Awaiting the "horse****" detail.

http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/objectivity

"Objectivity is a noun that means a lack of bias, judgment, or prejudice."

You don't like me from the old days and you're not objective.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Awaiting the "horse****" detail.After WWII we(America) has never been allowed to fully engage. That was understandable in Vietnam, since Russia and China were real threats. However, in Iraq and Afghanistan we have allowed the PC voices to prevail. Nobody who is honest would doubt that. Nor would honest people deny that PC and "America is at fault" people have gained increasing and operational control over most of the public institutions.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Quote Originally Posted by RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
ah, the stupid card. They jest cain't hep it!
I was referring to your lack of objectivity with me, in particular, not your intellect. But, maybe you're right. I'll leave that with you.

2nd stupid card. How many you throwing today?

[SoonerProphet]

After WWII we(America) has never been allowed to fully engage. That was understandable in Vietnam, since Russia and China were real threats. However, in Iraq and Afghanistan we have allowed the PC voices to prevail. Nobody who is honest would doubt that. Nor would honest people deny that PC and "America is at fault" people have gained increasing and operational control over most of the public institutions.

What exactly are you implying here? Full war production, the draft, rationing and tax raises to pay for full scale mobilization? Genocide and a clash of civilizations? What does "fully engaged" even mean?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

What exactly are you implying here? Full war production, the draft, rationing and tax raises to pay for full scale mobilization? Genocide and a clash of civilizations?Do you really think that's what I mean? If you say yes, you are likely disingenuous or maybe WAY beyond just a koolaid drinker of the Leftist, blame America First crowd.:concern:

[SoonerProphet]

Do you really think that's what I mean? If you say yes, you are likely disingenuous or maybe WAY beyond just a koolaid drinker of the Leftist, blame America First crowd.:concern:

What does "fully engaged" even mean?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

What does "fully engaged" even mean?Allowed to do things that would secure objectives and not place our troops in positions more dangerous than is actually necessary. I believe you knew that, and are very reluctant to even talk about the problem. It certainly isn't in the forefront of your concerns.

[Serenity Now]

Rush: I've made no comment on your intellect. That's your inferences. I figure you're smart enough given that you're a sooner.