from Frogs and Rebs thread . . .

[TAFBSooner]

SicEm: "Deo Vindice.
....but Go Frogs! "

History still has a while to run, but so far God has not vindicated the slavers.

And Good Job, Frogs!

[SicEmBaylor]

SicEm: "Deo Vindice.
....but Go Frogs! "

History still has a while to run, but so far God has not vindicated the slavers.

And Good Job, Frogs!

I don't believe in hell, but I like to imagine the war criminals and tyrants absolutely burning for eternity.

[TAFBSooner]

I don't believe in hell, but I like to imagine the war criminals and tyrants absolutely burning for eternity.

What is the eternal reward for the chain of command which ordered and implemented firing on Fort Sumter? If those hotheads had kept their cool, you could have kept your nation (and kept your slaves, at least for a while). But then, if they hadn't been hotheads, they wouldn't have been true Sons of the South, now would they?

[SicEmBaylor]

What is the eternal reward for the chain of command which ordered and implemented firing on Fort Sumter? If those hotheads had kept their cool, you could have kept your nation (and kept your slaves, at least for a while). But then, if they hadn't been hotheads, they wouldn't have been true Sons of the South, now would they?

South Carolina seceded thus regaining their full sovereignty. They repeatedly and repeatedly requested the Federal government remove its troops from sovereign South Carolinian soil. The Federal government refused to do so, called for volunteers, and began re-enforcing that garrison and others. Any nation that has its troops on the soil of another sovereign nation/state is committing an act of war. The first shots were fired by the South, but the first acts of war had been committed by the Union long before that

[TAFBSooner]

South Carolina seceded thus regaining their full sovereignty. They repeatedly and repeatedly requested the Federal government remove its troops from sovereign South Carolinian soil. The Federal government refused to do so, called for volunteers, and began re-enforcing that garrison and others. Any nation that has its troops on the soil of another sovereign nation/state is committing an act of war. The first shots were fired by the South, but the first acts of war had been committed by the Union long before that

Arguments have been had about SC's right to secede, or not, which affects the rest of your argument down to the Union's alleged acts of war. But that's not what I'm arguing.

If SC had tolerated the Union fort in its harbor, Lincoln would not have received the support he needed to invade the South in summer 1861. The Deep South's secession, at least, would have been a done deal. I'm saying that the South's legendary hot blood made it impossible for them to tolerate the fort.

In other words, the South's emotional makeup was the seed of its failure.

[SicEmBaylor]

Arguments have been had about SC's right to secede, or not, which affects the rest of your argument down to the Union's alleged acts of war. But that's not what I'm arguing.

If SC had tolerated the Union fort in its harbor, Lincoln would not have received the support he needed to invade the South in summer 1861. The Deep South's secession, at least, would have been a done deal. I'm saying that the South's legendary hot blood made it impossible for them to tolerate the fort.

In other words, the South's emotional makeup was the seed of its failure.

lol, yeah, okay. I'm sure the United States would never take issue with a foreign power establishing a base on its sovereign territory. Why would anyone mind that, am I right?

[olevetonahill]

lol, yeah, okay. I'm sure the United States would never take issue with a foreign power establishing a base on its sovereign territory. Why would anyone mind that, am I right?

Why do you want to argue something thats been settled for over a 150 years?

[FaninAma]

If you like your Federal government you can keep your Federal government with its IRS, $18 trillion dollar debt and its growing regulation of every facet of our lives. You can also thank Lincoln for taking away any peaceful options of reigning in this monster.

Watch the Gangs of New York before you crown Lincoln as the angelic savior of the country.

[TAFBSooner]

If you like your Federal government you can keep your Federal government with its IRS, $18 trillion dollar debt and its growing regulation of every facet of our lives. You can also thank Lincoln for taking away any peaceful options of reigning in this monster.

Watch the Gangs of New York before you crown Lincoln as the angelic savior of the country.

Please don't confuse my hatred for the Confederacy and all that it stood for with love for Lincoln. Even in the 19th century politics was a matter of the lessor of two evils.


Fan, I know this is a hot topic with you. As a matter of curiosity, without the War of the Rebellion, do you think the authoritarians wouldn't have taken over the country to the extent they have?

To complete your Venn diagram, if you don't like your Federal government you will keep your Federal government.

[TAFBSooner]

Why do you want to argue something thats been settled for over a 150 years?

SicEm hooks me every time he posts something like Day-O Vin Douchy. Like a trout on a fly.

[olevetonahill]

SicEm hooks me every time he posts something like Day-O Vin Douchy. Like a trout on a fly.

Heh. Then Dayum Yankeees just THINK they won, The south jes takin a break to catch our breath :welcoming:

[FaninAma]

Please don't confuse my hatred for the Confederacy and all that it stood for with love for Lincoln. Even in the 19th century politics was a matter of the lessor of two evils.


Fan, I know this is a hot topic with you. As a matter of curiosity, without the War of the Rebellion, do you think the authoritarians wouldn't have taken over the country to the extent they have?

To complete your Venn diagram, if you don't like your Federal government you will keep your Federal government.
It would have been far less likely especially if the right to secede had been established as the intention of the Founding Fathers. I think it is inconceivable the FF's waged a war to gain their independence from Britain only to turn around and join another power grasping central government that you could never leave no matter how oppressive and totalitarian it became.

I sincerely believe that that they intended for the Union to be a voluntary Union. They talked and wrote often of their fear of an encroaching government takeover of civil liberties and freedom and the fact that citizens would need to stay vigilant and hold our representatives accountable.

They also knew the dangers of a powerful central government not kept in check by an informed, involved citizenry. They would be appalled at the loss of Congressional power to the executive and judicial branches.

[TAFBSooner]

It would have been far less likely especially if the right to secede had been established as the intention of the Founding Fathers. I think it is inconceivable the FF's waged a war to gain their independence from Britain only to turn around and join another power grasping central government that you could never leave no matter how oppressive and totalitarian it became.

I sincerely believe that that they intended for the Union to be a voluntary Union. They talked and wrote often of their fear of an encroaching government takeover of civil liberties and freedom and the fact that citizens would need to stay vigilant and hold our representatives accountable.

They also knew the dangers of a powerful central government not kept in check by an informed, involved citizenry. They would be appalled at the loss of Congressional power to the executive and judicial branches.

The Fathers were pretty, nay very good about putting their designs for a non-tyrannical government into place. I don't believe the lack of a right to secede was an oversight. Either they thought they could perfect their design, rendering moot any need to leave, or they could not find a compromise allowing such a right.

You have, however, found the bug in their design - the need for a vigilant citizenry.

[TAFBSooner]

Heh. Then Dayum Yankeees just THINK they won, The south jes takin a break to catch our breath :welcoming:

Yes, of course you're right. Say hi to the Carthaginians in the break room. :-)

[SoonerorLater]

It would have been far less likely especially if the right to secede had been established as the intention of the Founding Fathers. I think it is inconceivable the FF's waged a war to gain their independence from Britain only to turn around and join another power grasping central government that you could never leave no matter how oppressive and totalitarian it became.

I sincerely believe that that they intended for the Union to be a voluntary Union. They talked and wrote often of their fear of an encroaching government takeover of civil liberties and freedom and the fact that citizens would need to stay vigilant and hold our representatives accountable.

They also knew the dangers of a powerful central government not kept in check by an informed, involved citizenry. They would be appalled at the loss of Congressional power to the executive and judicial branches.

Thomas DiLorenzo agrees with you (and me). Probably one of the most prolific anti-Licolnite writers on the planet.


http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/the-lincoln-cults-case-for-mass-murder/

[FaninAma]

The Fathers were pretty, nay very good about putting their designs for a non-tyrannical government into place. I don't believe the lack of a right to secede was an oversight. Either they thought they could perfect their design, rendering moot any need to leave, or they could not find a compromise allowing such a right.

You have, however, found the bug in their design - the need for a vigilant citizenry.
If the founding fathers did not believe in the concept of secession then they certainly had a change of heart between the penning of the Declaration of Independence and the ratification of the Constitution.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.