HS game to be reviewed by courts...Douglas HS Okla

[Soonerjeepman]

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2014/12/09/hail-mary-judge-to-decide-if-blown-call-in-okla-prep-football-game-merits-do/?intcmp=latestnews

An Oklahoma high school football team has thrown a legal Hail Mary in its bid to get a loss in the state playoffs overturned.

Oklahoma City’s Frederick A. Douglass High School lost a thriller, 20-19, to Locust Grove in the playoff quarterfinals on Nov. 28. A touchdown with just 64 seconds remaining that appeared to put Douglass ahead, 25-20, was overturned on a penalty that everyone now acknowledges was incorrectly enforced.


Interesting...what's your take? Personally I think this opens a big ol can of worms for the future. Dang I understand fairness...but man, we are really changing how Americans view things.

[badger]

It's getting a lot of national press. There is no precedent for this in football. I think OSSAA had a replay of a volleyball game a few years ago for some reason, but that's a different sport. On top of that, bad ref calls are part of football, as any OU fan can attest to during the Stoops era :mad:

As such, if the adults cannot act like adults, declare both teams as losers and let their would-be next opponent advance to the finals uncontested. Perhaps that's the toddler mommy in me picturing two kids fighting over the same toy, then just taking it away and putting it out of the reach of both of them.

[Soonerjeepman]

I'm sure the "winning team" isn't complaining about the bad "call". I can live with a bad call, that happens...but the enforcement was the issue. Wrong enforcement (which is not judgement but pretty black and white) which then basically took the TD and win away. Pretty sure that ref won't ref again...at least not HS V ball.

[jkjsooner]

bad ref calls are part of football

No offense but I hate that saying to no end. Bad calls may be inevitable but they are not a part of the game in the same sense as players actions are a part of the game. A QB throwing an interception is part of the game. A player lining up offsides in part of the game. We go to games to watch imperfect humans play the game. We do not go to watch imperfect refs call the game. If there are things we can do to make officiating the game more exact and precise I'd be all for it.

I'd never go watch perfect robots play a game of football. (Well, maybe once out of curiosity.) I would have no problem with perfect robots calling the game.

[FaninAma]

No offense but I hate that saying to no end. Bad calls may be inevitable but they are not a part of the game in the same sense as players actions are a part of the game. A QB throwing an interception is part of the game. A player lining up offsides in part of the game. We go to games to watch imperfect humans play the game. We do not go to watch imperfect refs call the game. If there are things we can do to make officiating the game more exact and precise I'd be all for it.

I'd never go watch perfect robots play a game of football. (Well, maybe once out of curiosity.) I would have no problem with perfect robots calling the game.

So refs aren't human? This is a very silly move on Douglas' part. Replay's are fine but if you take the human element out of officiating the game then you've fundamentally changed the game.

[Jacie]

If we are going to have do overs, there was this Olympic basketball game . . .

[BoulderSooner79]

If we are going to have do overs, there was this Olympic basketball game . . .

And this college football game up in Eugene…

[Eielson]

It's ridiculous. Yeah, they screwed up, and Douglas probably should have won, but you don't get do overs. Life isn't fair.

Now the playoffs are being delayed. I don't feel that bad for Locust Grove, as they were probably unfairly granted a victory, but I do feel bad for the other HS that is waiting around to play somebody.

Locust Grove should find some holding penalties earlier in the game that weren't called. I can almost guarantee you that somebody on Douglas could have been called for some kind of hold or illegal block on at least one of the scoring plays. Perhaps an O-line moved a split second early? It happens all the time. Move on.

[Breadburner]

****ing stupid......!!!

[kbsooner21]

A school system that already lacks funding for education is now spending on trying to get this to court. Makes sense...

[SoonerorLater]

So I take it that everybody feels we should not correct egregious errors if it is within our power to do so?

[badger]

I can see the sentiment is clearly in the "let it go" side, but if you need further reinforcement of this...

Fan's actions could leave Douglass football team ineligible for postseason play (http://newsok.com/fans-actions-could-leave-douglass-football-team-ineligible-for-postseason-play/article/5374422)


Football official Chad Moyer alleges he was punched by a Douglass fan following the controversial finish to a Class 3A quarterfinal game against Locust Grove that has caught national attention.

So, they may be ineligible for postseason regardless of what the judge decides because they couldn't control their unruly fans after the disappointing ref call.

At least we just pelt refs with oranges when we don't like their calls ;)

[SoonerorLater]

It's always easy to develop the just drop it, let it go attitude when it's somebody else that's being affected..

[jkjsooner]

So refs aren't human? This is a very silly move on Douglas' part. Replay's are fine but if you take the human element out of officiating the game then you've fundamentally changed the game.

Refs are human so bad calls are inevitable but saying it's "part of the game" puts it on equal footing as all other aspects of the game.

Well we didn't win this game because QB threw an interception. We didn't win that game because the official forgot how to enforce the rule.

These aren't the same. They're not even close to the same.

I don't want a football game where players never make mistakes. If it was possible to have a game where the officials never made mistakes we would all be better off.

That is my point.

[jkjsooner]

It's ridiculous. Yeah, they screwed up, and Douglas probably should have won, but you don't get do overs. Life isn't fair.

Now the playoffs are being delayed. I don't feel that bad for Locust Grove, as they were probably unfairly granted a victory, but I do feel bad for the other HS that is waiting around to play somebody.

Locust Grove should find some holding penalties earlier in the game that weren't called. I can almost guarantee you that somebody on Douglas could have been called for some kind of hold or illegal block on at least one of the scoring plays. Perhaps an O-line moved a split second early? It happens all the time. Move on.

You know that some missed holding call (which is entirely subjective to begin with) in the middle of the game is not the same as the official not enforcing the penalty correctly on a play at the end of the game that would have probably determined the outcome of the game.

I'm not saying the game should be replayed but I am calling B.S. on what you just said and I doubt that was the line you took when we got screwed in Oregon. Was some missed holding call early in that game the same as the official never actually trying to determine who recovered the onside kick (OU) nor correctly determining that Oregon touched the ball before 10 yards - calls that would have ended the game?

[badger]

It's always easy to develop the just drop it, let it go attitude when it's somebody else that's being affected..

I don't mind if they change the rules for next season. Take this incident and learn from it, but don't use the courts to sort out a high school football game, even a playoff game.

Locust Grove is unfairly being labeled the "bad guy" here, especially when the Douglass adults have set such a poor example for their students (http://newsok.com/douglass-locust-grove-trojans-not-a-sympathetic-victim/article/5372433).


Alexander saying after the game that the officials and the OSSAA can “go to hell.”

As in, Douglass' head football coach Willis Alexander, who was also accused of instigating the crowd after the game, which he denied. To his credit, when OSSAA was considering whether or not he should be allowed to coach the rest of the postseason due to his postgame actions, he volunteered to sit out the rest of the season if it meant his players could play Locust Grove again.

[jkjsooner]

And since Oregon came up, a lot of criticism goes to the replay official for messing up the onside kick call but I think the worse call was the on-field officials never even making an attempt to determine who recovered that ball. They saw a pill up and immediately pointed Oregon's way. It just boggles my mind.

Had our guy (I believe it was Patrick) just picked the ball up and ran towards the goal line I wonder what the officials would have done. That would have made it clear their premature awarding of possession to Oregon was flat out wrong.

[jkjsooner]

I don't mind if they change the rules for next season. Take this incident and learn from it, but don't use the courts to sort out a high school football game, even a playoff game.

Locust Grove is unfairly being labeled the "bad guy" here, especially when the Douglass adults have set such a poor example for their students (http://newsok.com/douglass-locust-grove-trojans-not-a-sympathetic-victim/article/5372433).



As in, Douglass' head football coach Willis Alexander, who was also accused of instigating the crowd after the game, which he denied. To his credit, when OSSAA was considering whether or not he should be allowed to coach the rest of the postseason due to his postgame actions, he volunteered to sit out the rest of the season if it meant his players could play Locust Grove again.

I'm confused. Rest of what postseason? If the OSSAA doesn't replay the ending of the game then there is no rest of postseason for Douglass or Alexander.

[Pride1Mom]

It was a HIGH SCHOOL football game. If you are waiting for life to be fair, you are going to have a very long wait. Our society is getting where EVERYTHING is about winning. There are always going to be times when life gives you disappointments. In the grand scheme of things, football games are supposed to be entertainment, and there are much more important things in life. I LOVE FOOTBALL!! I try to watch as much of it as I can get, but I know it is still a game to take us away from our daily worries.

[lexsooner]

I realize the OKC school system is arguing its case on the basis of the refs not knowing the rules, and supposedly not a bad judgment call on the field. However, there is no legal right at issue, so on what grounds would a court intervene? It seems absent an administrative remedy by the high school athletic organization, courts should stay out of this.

[jkjsooner]

I'd love to see the rules expanded in future years so that some predefined committee could make a determination whether a game could be continued from the point of the mistake. I think to do this it would have to meet the following criteria:

1. The mistake could not be a judgement call.
2. The game would have effectively ended (or very close to it) after the mistake.

#2 couldn't be codified in a rule so it would take a committee to make a judgement call.

Obviously if a similar error occurred in the second quarter, you can't wipe out 2+ quarters of plays. Doing so could easily be more unfair than mistake itself.

But #2 would be a hard criteria to meet. Locust Grove was forced to play defense after the penalty was incorrectly enforced and they stopped Douglass. If Douglass had scored they (Douglass) would not have protested. That means if a committee has the power to force a replay, you have effectively forced Locust Grove to having to finish and win the game twice. A failure on either case would result in their loss.

I guess in that scenario, had Douglass scored after the penalty, Locust Grove could have protested saying that the game ending should be replayed after Douglass's first score.

Allowing replays would be tricky business.

[Eielson]

You know that some missed holding call (which is entirely subjective to begin with) in the middle of the game is not the same as the official not enforcing the penalty correctly on a play at the end of the game that would have probably determined the outcome of the game.

I'm not saying the game should be replayed but I am calling B.S. on what you just said and I doubt that was the line you took when we got screwed in Oregon. Was some missed holding call early in that game the same as the official never actually trying to determine who recovered the onside kick (OU) nor correctly determining that Oregon touched the ball before 10 yards - calls that would have ended the game?

I never said a holding call in the in the middle of the game is the same thing. I'm saying that bad calls happen, and you can't replay a game based off of them.

I never claimed the final few minutes of the game in Oregon should be replayed, so you're wrong about that. It's also completely different when you have review officials that refuse to correct multiple obvious calls.

[badger]

I'm confused. Rest of what postseason? If the OSSAA doesn't replay the ending of the game then there is no rest of postseason for Douglass or Alexander.

Well, there's now an update on that front. Douglass got probation and the fan got banned for life. (http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/highschools/footballhs/hs-playoff-update-douglass-football-moved-off-probation-fan-banned/article_b2bddc02-f19f-5ef7-860c-3443197c154f.html)


If granted the opportunity to replay the controversial Class 3A quarterfinal with Locus Grove, Douglass is now eligible to continue.

The OSSAA was discussing a hypothetical, and the board was actually divided in their decision (3 votes against I think) to turn down Douglass' appeal. I think the motion involving Alexander was withdrawn after discussion led toward just turning Douglass down, period. If there was any discussion involving Douglass playing again this postseason, I think that discussion would be sans Alexander after his postgame words/actions.

My stance is unchanged. It's sad and unfortunate, but OSSAA can change the rules (and make sure the refs are aware of the rules before the playoffs start) based on this incident to prevent future controversy. There's no precedent for replaying all or part of an Oklahoma HS football game based on a botched call. Don't get the courts involved, it's time to move on. Sorry.

[SoonerorLater]

So what is our lesson today class? Right, defense of the bureaucratic status quo is more important than relentless pursuit of adjudicating wrongs....Let them eat cake!

[Eielson]

So what is our lesson today class? Right, defense of the bureaucratic status quo is more important than relentless pursuit of adjudicating wrongs....Let them eat cake!

You're right.

Let's get the courts involved to replay the OSU game, because Perine's progress had stopped, and that wasn't a fumble. Also, OSU's player fumbled after the Sanchez hit, and that was miscalled as an incomplete pass.

[badger]

The adults are going to skunk the 3A's postseason with their legal wrangling to the point that nobody will get to play, even the teams not involved in that game.

[hairGel]Jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjustice!:les:

[Eielson]

The adults are going to skunk the 3A's postseason with their legal wrangling to the point that nobody will get to play, even the teams not involved in that game.

[hairGel]Jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjustice!:les:

That's just their way of teaching their kids life lessons!

[badger]

Unlike college and pro football players, who can have their postseasons extend as far into the New Year as possible if it means more money, high schools have another sports season kicking off. Especially at smaller schools (like the class 3A in question), athletes play both fall and winter (and possibly also spring) sports.

How long will the adults allow this situation to get drawn out :(

[SoonerorLater]

You're right.

Let's get the courts involved to replay the OSU game, because Perine's progress had stopped, and that wasn't a fumble. Also, OSU's player fumbled after the Sanchez hit, and that was miscalled as an incomplete pass.

Apples and oranges. On field calls are by nature at least somewhat subjective. Even at that there is replay which can pick up other errors. The league office can even go back and reverse calls after the fact in the event of ejection for say targeting. In this case we are not talking about anything subjective whatsoever. We are talking about hard codified rules and regulations put in place by OSSAA themselves. OSSAA,s dismissive attitude and a failure to try to right a wrong is what lead to this. If getting the court involved is a little inconvenient then so be it.

But hey, you are talking to a guy who fought 2 1/2 years over a $17.00 bill I didn't owe so I'm not philosophically inclined to just let stuff go unchallenged.

[jkjsooner]

Well, there's now an update on that front. Douglass got probation and the fan got banned for life. (http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/highschools/footballhs/hs-playoff-update-douglass-football-moved-off-probation-fan-banned/article_b2bddc02-f19f-5ef7-860c-3443197c154f.html)



The OSSAA was discussing a hypothetical, and the board was actually divided in their decision (3 votes against I think) to turn down Douglass' appeal. I think the motion involving Alexander was withdrawn after discussion led toward just turning Douglass down, period. If there was any discussion involving Douglass playing again this postseason, I think that discussion would be sans Alexander after his postgame words/actions.

My stance is unchanged. It's sad and unfortunate, but OSSAA can change the rules (and make sure the refs are aware of the rules before the playoffs start) based on this incident to prevent future controversy. There's no precedent for replaying all or part of an Oklahoma HS football game based on a botched call. Don't get the courts involved, it's time to move on. Sorry.

There's no precedent on calling a sideline infraction the way it was called either. So they could order a replay, have the game replayed from that point, and then send an apology to Locust Grove stating they enforced the rules incorrectly and should not have ordered a replay.

I kid, sort of.

[jkjsooner]

Well, there's now an update on that front. Douglass got probation and the fan got banned for life. (http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/highschools/footballhs/hs-playoff-update-douglass-football-moved-off-probation-fan-banned/article_b2bddc02-f19f-5ef7-860c-3443197c154f.html)


The funny thing is that I don't even think Douglass knew why they were upset the night of the game. I think they were just ticked that the penalty was called. Only later did they realize just how severe the official's mistake was.

[badger]

I get that you disagree with me on this front and that's cool. I hate that this happened to teenagers and if you play sport as tough and injury-prone as football this has to be the equivalent of the disappointment of a lifetime. If no changes are made in the aftermath to HS football, playoffs especially, then this is a wasted opportunity.

I am definitely not advocating "do nothing." I am glad that they have banned the punchy fan. I am glad that they are placing Douglass on probation (without postseason ban) and are calling the HS coach on his postgame actions/words. I am sad for the kids; because the solution here is to move forward and let the game stand as called, even if called incorrectly. That will make people upset, but these are high school teenagers and winter break looms, not to mention winter sports season and perhaps midterm finals.

[SoonerForLife92]

Good for them. They are making it enough of a big deal to get the rules changed, and I would love this to carry over to other sports/leagues. "Refs are human too" is a ridiculous argument when we have the technology and ability to get calls that are blantanly and clearly called incorrect, to be overturned. It's not a perfect world in sports, but it could be with rule changes. I realize there would be some repercussions to this but still. If it worked out, no more oregon type games or 2012 NBA finals bullsh** officiating.

[Breadburner]

If the coach for Douglass would have kept his cool and used his ****ing head instead of flipping his **** they would have looked at the rule book right there and reversed it......

[Eielson]

If the coach for Douglass would have kept his cool and used his ****ing head instead of flipping his **** they would have looked at the rule book right there and reversed it......

From what I've heard, the coach had no idea that it was incorrectly enforced. He was just pissed that it was called at all.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Yet again, being held down by "the man"...

[badger]

Yet again, being held down by "the man"...

this guy?
http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/lead630-n_f85405612ebee896bd571ef8c488bbe1.jpg

Oklahoma judge rules against replaying Douglass-Locust Grove game (http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/highschools/footballhs/oklahoma-judge-rules-against-replaying-douglass-locust-grove-game/article_df6f1cb0-1a44-54b6-b76c-61fce42ac4b0.html)


An Oklahoma County district judge has decided that a Class 3A playoff game should not be replayed.

Judge Bernard Jones’ ruling Thursday clears the way for Locust Grove to play OKC Heritage Hall in the semifinals. That game is scheduled for 7 p.m. Friday at Sapulpa High School.

Inevitable appeal I guess... or the adults could step back and act like adults... hmmm... not holding my breath :(

[jkjsooner]

OSSAA,s dismissive attitude and a failure to try to right a wrong is what lead to this. If getting the court involved is a little inconvenient then so be it.

Can you address the point I made earlier?

1. Two scenarios the game could have originally ended:

A. After the incorrect penalty, Locust Grove stops Douglass and wins the game.
B. After the incorrect penalty, Douglass scores anyway.

2. Two scenarios that could play out if you replay from the incorrect penalty.

A. Locust Grove scores anyway. They win.
B. Douglass stops Locust Grove from scoring and they win.


So let's analyze this. Under 1A there is a protest and the game continues. Under 1B, since Douglass won anyway, there would be no protest.

Under 2B, Douglass wins.

What you are doing by replaying the game after the mistake is you are forcing Locust Grove to complete the game twice and win it.

I think we all agree that Douglass probably would have won the game had the rule been enforced correctly but the only fair way to do it is by stopping the game at that point. If you continue and you force Locust Grove into making a stop you've unfairly punished them.


OSSAA isn't being dismissive. They just don't have the ability to right the wrong and even if they did it would be unfair to Locust Grove because you're asking them to complete and win the game twice. If they fail either time they lose.

[OU68]

So let's not have refs at all, electronic monitoring of the line of scrimage & the ball(imbedded sensors) & cameras on every player. Yeah, that would make the game more fun to watch!

[DBrown]

Just waiting on the day when our stadiums get a piranha filled moat around the field like they have in many third world countries.