Watering the Big12 down even further: Has it begun?

[Tear Down This Wall]

As suspected, talks with Cincinnati: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/big-12-reportedly-met-with-cincinnati-before-playoff-was-finalized-160133203.html

Awful.

Okay. Cincy and who else? My guesses have been Houston, BYU, and Boise State. All are terrible adds. But, it looks as though the conference "leadership" is headed in that direction.

Imagine the years we lose to these schools, "Yeah, but they lost to Houston." Terrible.

Please, Boren and Castiglione, please jump! Pay whatever penalty to get out of this sinking conference. Pac-12 will certainly have us over a barrel; but, give them what they want and give the Big 12 what they want. But, whatever the price, get out now!

[badger]

BYU and Notre Dame. Make it happen. No dropoff in per-team revenue because they're national with their religious affiliations. And they love their sports.

Cincy is doing a lot of renovation and expansion so they'd be ok i guess. Houston just fired their football coach and has Kelvin in charge of basketball :D

Boise NO NO NO NO a thousand times

If New Mexico, Nevada, or even Memphis/East Carolina didn't suck they'd be good regional adds

[BoulderSooner79]

BYU and ND would be serviceable. All other names I've seen are a joke.

[Eielson]

Cincy would be alright, but they're all the way out there in Ohio. Ohio has some good football players, so it might help a tad with recruiting. I'd much prefer that over adding Houston.

I'd rather do nothing right now, though.

[Soonerjeepman]

BYU and ND would be serviceable. All other names I've seen are a joke.

yup

[Eielson]

Actually, I still want UCF or USF, so that we can expand to Florida.

[EatLeadCommie]

Better to do nothing at this point. BYU is the only serviceable option, and they're too far west. Cinci and Memphis add nothing and make us worse as a football conference. Cinci makes sense due to WVU, but no. We missed on Louisville. Time to accept that.

[achiro]

The ONLY way to make the big-12 a top conference again would be to go hard after some schools that have left and a few that are in other big conferences. Neb, CO, Arkansas, maybe KY, Iowa, ND. Don't have any idea what the big 12 could offer to any of them to get close to them even thinking about switching but anything less hurts more than it helps.

[EatLeadCommie]

None of those schools are leaving their conferences.

[nanimonai]

The ONLY way to make the big-12 a top conference again would be to go hard after some schools that have left and a few that are in other big conferences. Neb, CO, Arkansas, maybe KY, Iowa, ND. Don't have any idea what the big 12 could offer to any of them to get close to them even thinking about switching but anything less hurts more than it helps.

They could grab a couple of ACC schools to go along with West Virginia on the east coast. Virginia Tech, Georgia Teach, Clemson, maybe even Florida St.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Dallas Morning News also reported discussions with Memphis. I can't believe this. If we go Cincy plus Houston or Memphis, we have lost our minds.

We will have gone from the Big 8 years of only flagship state schools and largest state ag schools to commuter/city schools.

[BoulderSooner79]

Seems the conference is in over reaction/panic mode. This will not end well. Not having a CCG was just one factor in the equation and adding school without a national following will not address the other factors.

A flukey thing that happened was the 61-58 (non OT!) shootout between the 2 co-champs. There was plenty of media talk about whether either team could be CFB worthy giving up that many points. I think that was a factor and there is nothing to be done to try to fix that. It happened and it's highly unlikely to happen again - move on.

[jkjsooner]

Why in the world would OU or Texas (not to mention any of the other Texas schools) even consider adding Houston? Is the goal to weaken recruiting as much as possible?

We already screwed ourselves by adding TCU.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Why in the world would OU or Texas (not to mention any of the other Texas schools) even consider adding Houston? Is the goal to weaken recruiting as much as possible?

We already screwed ourselves by adding TCU.

Again, it looks like the Big 12 leadership are busy trying the rebuild it as Big East II. Cincinnati? Memphis? Puke.

[EatLeadCommie]

Why in the world would OU or Texas (not to mention any of the other Texas schools) even consider adding Houston? Is the goal to weaken recruiting as much as possible?

We already screwed ourselves by adding TCU.

I can't imagine that either OU or Texas is on board with the move and both will bolt or make a power play to deep six the new commish for serious multiple failings in a span of a couple weeks.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Texas is sneaky and conniving. It would shock me 0% if it surfaced that they are talking to the ACC or Pac-12 after the bowl season.

As much as I hate to keep saying this, I think Boren and Castiglione made a huge mistake in tying our fortunes to Texas in 2011. It was clear from the Pac-10 snub that Texas would have been let in without us had the Longhorn Network issue been worked out between them and the Pac-10.

As it stands, Texas could go ACC or Pac-10 without us, and do so pretty easily. Then, we'd be even more stuck. Whatever Texas has lacked on the field of late, they still have a brand that sells...and that fat television contract.

ACC with Notre Dame and Texas? It could happen as easily as them throwing us a rope to approach the Pac-12 together.

[badger]

ACC with Notre Dame and Texas? It could happen as easily as them throwing us a rope to approach the Pac-12 together.

Texas is bad at keeping secrets. I think it's because they have so many mouths to feed so to speak --- big money donors to keep happy and in the loop.

For example, Boone Pickens has donated more than $100 million to whorn. Therefore they keep him in the loop all things UT. If something was in the works that would hurt his beloved Aggy, he would be yapping to any media that would hear him (and that would be all media but of course).

[FaninAma]

As suspected, talks with Cincinnati: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/big-12-reportedly-met-with-cincinnati-before-playoff-was-finalized-160133203.html

Awful.

Okay. Cincy and who else? My guesses have been Houston, BYU, and Boise State. All are terrible adds. But, it looks as though the conference "leadership" is headed in that direction.

Imagine the years we lose to these schools, "Yeah, but they lost to Houston." Terrible.

Please, Boren and Castiglione, please jump! Pay whatever penalty to get out of this sinking conference. Pac-12 will certainly have us over a barrel; but, give them what they want and give the Big 12 what they want. But, whatever the price, get out now!

I agree. These teams do nothing for the Big 12 brand. Nothing. It's like the eyesore house in your neighborhood where the owners keep making ghastly additions or "improvements" to the house which only serve to make it even more ugly.

[EatLeadCommie]

The other thing is that Cinci and Memphis water down the academic reputation (or what is left of it) of the conference even more. I can't imagine that college presidents would be on board for that. I think this would be the death knell for the Big XII. OU and OSU bolt for the SEC. KU and KSU go to the Big 10. WVU goes to the ACC. TX and somebody else (maybe Baylor) to the Pac 12. Everybody else is left out in the cold.

[beached_sooner]

I seriously doubt N.D. would ever join the Big 12. Their natural affiliation is with the Big 10.

Maybe make a run at the Arizona schools? But surely they get a better revenue sharing package in the Pac 12 than what they could get in the Big 12. Shame we lost A&M, Nebraska and Mizzou. Arkansas would be a natural fit.

Why did the Pac 12 find Utah and Colorado more appealing than OU and OSU? Doesn't CU pretty much suck at all athletic programs? Sure their academics are good, but who cares about that.

[SoonerorLater]

yup

Even if they would come the last thing we need is any more prima donna schools that are looking for special sweetheart deals. That's the root cause of the disintegration of the Big 12.

[Tear Down This Wall]

If the Pac-12 wouldn't take BYU, there's no way in freezing hell they'd take Baylor. The only question about Baylor if we and Texas jump ship is how many lawyers and PR firms they'd hire to cry, whine, and threaten publicly for them about being left behind. Having Baylor on board is truly like agreeing to let your girlfriend's little brother tag along to the movies with you: a complete cockblock of a situation.

The Pac-12 president guy came from the tennis world and is strictly a marketing guy - that is why Oklahoma State not appealing to them. What do they have to offer the Pac-12 brand? Outside of Oklahoma, OSU means Ohio State to the rest of the country.

And, badger, I agree with you on Pickens...it would be hard for him to keep his mouth shut if he knew something about Texas' intentions.

[ourichie]

I seriously doubt N.D. would ever join the Big 12. Their natural affiliation is with the Big 10.

Maybe make a run at the Arizona schools? But surely they get a better revenue sharing package in the Pac 12 than what they could get in the Big 12. Shame we lost A&M, Nebraska and Mizzou. Arkansas would be a natural fit.

Why did the Pac 12 find Utah and Colorado more appealing than OU and OSU? Doesn't CU pretty much suck at all athletic programs? Sure their academics are good, but who cares about that.

I heard they (pac-12) wanted OU and TX but not OSU that's why we stayed

[EatLeadCommie]

I seriously doubt N.D. would ever join the Big 12. Their natural affiliation is with the Big 10.

Maybe make a run at the Arizona schools? But surely they get a better revenue sharing package in the Pac 12 than what they could get in the Big 12. Shame we lost A&M, Nebraska and Mizzou. Arkansas would be a natural fit.

Why did the Pac 12 find Utah and Colorado more appealing than OU and OSU? Doesn't CU pretty much suck at all athletic programs? Sure their academics are good, but who cares about that.

Geography and a willingness to join without haggling?

[Tear Down This Wall]

Geography and a willingness to join without haggling?

Utah and Colorado weren't playing the "You can only have us if you let us bring along Utah State/Colorado State" card.

[Mac94]

Colorado was given the invite to block Baylor when it looked like 6 Big-12s were joining the Pac-10 to make the Pac-16 ... UT, A&M, OU, oSu, Tech, and one other. Colorado was a quick add to head off Baylor trying to tag along. When the whole idea fell apart Utah was added to get them to the magic number of 12.

[FaninAma]

Colorado was given the invite to block Baylor when it looked like 6 Big-12s were joining the Pac-10 to make the Pac-16 ... UT, A&M, OU, oSu, Tech, and one other. Colorado was a quick add to head off Baylor trying to tag along. When the whole idea fell apart Utah was added to get them to the magic number of 12.

So what does the Big 12 do with Baylor? Nobody seems to want them? I think the SEC would take OU and OSU but I don't think they would take Baylor or TCU. You are correct in your recollection of the PAC 10 not wanting Baylor.

[UteSooner]

Notre Dame isn't stupid enough to go Big 12.

BYU is a mistake on multiple levels. Besides, their following is less than you think (this coming from a Mormon). Adding West Virginia meant we pretty much have to go east for expansion. I think the Cincy-Memphis thing could be a real possibility. Let's hope they don't go crazy and invite more crappy schools to get to 14 or 16 (UCF, USF, ECU, etc). I believe there will be (long term) comparisons to the old Big East.

On a related note...this subject HAS to concern Texas, right? Their only out is nixing the LHN (no other conference would allow it). Are they that stupid? I wonder what would have happened if OU, OSU, and TT (and the Pac) said we were going with them or without them (to force their hand). I doubt they want SEC or to be left on an island with the ACC or Big 10.

My first preference was the Pac 16 but I'm quickly becoming open to other scenarios. I know people don't think we are tied to Texas but I see wisdom in it. But LHN must die.

[UteSooner]

So what does the Big 12 do with Baylor?

Screw Baylor. And TCU. And Iowa State. And even the Kansas schools. WV and TT too. I'd like to be with Texas and OSU. But if that can't happen, then screw them too!

[Tear Down This Wall]

So what does the Big 12 do with Baylor? Nobody seems to want them? I think the SEC would take OU and OSU but I don't think they would take Baylor or TCU. You are correct in your recollection of the PAC 10 not wanting Baylor.

Do we care what happens to Baylor? Baylor is Baylor's problem. If we can get into the Pac-12 - and theorizing that Texas is also invited - it's none of our concern what happens to everyone else.

For all I care, they can go full Big East II and invite Cincy, Memphis, Houston, and SMU in an attempt to make it an attractive basketball conference. SMU isn't horrible anymore with Larry Brown there. And, Houston has Kelvin Sampson, so maybe they'll finally be decent again.

The could call it the Big Midwest:
South
Baylor
TCU
Houston
Oklahoma State
SMU
Texas Tech

North
Kansas
Kansas State
Iowa State
Cincinnati
Memphis
West Virginia

[tycat947]

BYU would be the biggest joke! We have TWO too many private schools now! And this one comes with demands! They don't have as great a following as people think as NO ONE ELSE WANTS THEM! And the Big 12 has NO USE FOR THEM either!

[SoonerorLater]

BYU would be the biggest joke! We have TWO too many private schools now! And this one comes with demands! They don't have as great a following as people think as NO ONE ELSE WANTS THEM! And the Big 12 has NO USE FOR THEM either!

And that right there is the dilemma the Big 12 finds itself in. After BYU you're pretty much down to directional schools and de-facto commuter colleges. At this point about any move the Big 12 makes will be wrong. I suggest we grab a lifeboat.

[Sooner95]

I vote for the lifeboat as well. This conference is going nowhere at this time.

[achiro]

OU should just go independant and schedule whoever the hell they want. ;)

[SoonerMarkVA]

What a craptacular CF OU is in right now. We decided to suck on ut's teat, but then are anchored to freakin' Pork U. If we'd had any foresight, we would have taken hands with a&m and jumped to the SEC, leaving Mizzou behind in the dust along with the rest of this sorry conference.

OSU hates to be called Li'l Brother? Let them prove it. Let OU go and show us what a fine establishment you are. I still think the SEC would take us as they have room to grow to 16, though I don't know who comes with us. Honestly, I'd like it to be WV, but I think the SEC for whatever reason already shot them down.

[Eielson]

Ah geez, what a bunch of chicken littles.

Right now the SEC is the only conference better than ours, and the Pac-12 is right beside us. Every other conference is worse than ours.

This is ONE time that we didn't get our top team in the playoffs. It's not like this has happened over and over. It was just the perfect storm of two 11-1 teams splitting votes, TCU collapsing in the 4th quarter at Waco, tOSU obliterating Wisconsin in a fashion nobody expected, and Baylor suffering from non-conference scheduling decisions they made when they needed every possible win just to have a chance at bowl eligibility.

Had Alabama stumbled against Auburn or Mizzou, the SEC wouldn't have a representative, either. Same goes for Pac-12 if Oregon hadn't avenged their Arizona loss. Same for Big 10 had tOSU not destroyed Wisconsin. Same goes for FSU if they had lost any of their many close games.

We're just fine.

[Mac94]

IMHO expansion is an over reaction and a move ignoring one of the key reasons Baylor was left out ... a pitifully weak OOC. The first lesson in all of this is that OOC matters ... and Baylor failed in that regard. Schedule better and this might not have been an issue.

In the long term ... I still hope OU can end up in a Pac-16 conference with UT, oSu, and Tech

[tycat947]

Ah geez, what a bunch of chicken littles.

Right now the SEC is the only conference better than ours, and the Pac-12 is right beside us. Every other conference is worse than ours.

This is ONE time that we didn't get our top team in the playoffs. It's not like this has happened over and over. It was just the perfect storm of two 11-1 teams splitting votes, TCU collapsing in the 4th quarter at Waco, tOSU obliterating Wisconsin in a fashion nobody expected, and Baylor suffering from non-conference scheduling decisions they made when they needed every possible win just to have a chance at bowl eligibility.

Had Alabama stumbled against Auburn or Mizzou, the SEC wouldn't have a representative, either. Same goes for Pac-12 if Oregon hadn't avenged their Arizona loss. Same for Big 10 had tOSU not destroyed Wisconsin. Same goes for FSU if they had lost any of their many close games.

We're just fine.

The sky is falling!!!

You are EXACTLY right!

[achiro]

Ah geez, what a bunch of chicken littles.

Right now the SEC is the only conference better than ours, and the Pac-12 is right beside us. Every other conference is worse than ours.

This is ONE time that we didn't get our top team in the playoffs. It's not like this has happened over and over. It was just the perfect storm of two 11-1 teams splitting votes, TCU collapsing in the 4th quarter at Waco, tOSU obliterating Wisconsin in a fashion nobody expected, and Baylor suffering from non-conference scheduling decisions they made when they needed every possible win just to have a chance at bowl eligibility.

Had Alabama stumbled against Auburn or Mizzou, the SEC wouldn't have a representative, either. Same goes for Pac-12 if Oregon hadn't avenged their Arizona loss. Same for Big 10 had tOSU not destroyed Wisconsin. Same goes for FSU if they had lost any of their many close games.

We're just fine.

Yep but if the Big12 is actually talking to other teams then they are the ones you need to be talking to. :D

[bluedogok]

A flukey thing that happened was the 61-58 (non OT!) shootout between the 2 co-champs. There was plenty of media talk about whether either team could be CFB worthy giving up that many points. I think that was a factor and there is nothing to be done to try to fix that. It happened and it's highly unlikely to happen again - move on.
They didn't say the same thing after a 55-44 Iron Bowl game, the national media still expects teams to play like it's the 85 Sooner or Hurricane defenses out there. The offenses are way different than 30 years ago, it's a different game now.

[8timechamps]

Bowlsby said today (after the conference meeting) that the conference is NOT looking to add two additional members, saying that would be a "bad decision". There was discussion about adding a CCG, but nothing was determined.

At least Bowlsby (and the ADs) are smart enough to know that bringing in 12 teams just to get to 12 is a horrible idea.

[soonergirlNeugene]

I don't want any group of 5 teams. We already have perception issues.

[SoonerorLater]

I'm glad we're not bringing in a couple of ringers just to get to some magical number of teams in conference. Of course this also makes it crystal clear that as a conference the Big 12 is fenced in. There are no viable options for expansion. No graceful way to schedule a CCG. Going forward we will just have to play it as it lays.

[Mac94]

The shorter term answer for all 10 teams is make sure your OOC is as good as possible. Each school controls those three games so make them count ... use them to help offset any possible perception issues related to the conference schedule and/or lack of a CCG.

[TAFBSooner]

What a craptacular CF OU is in right now. We decided to suck on ut's teat, but then are anchored to freakin' Pork U. If we'd had any foresight, we would have taken hands with a&m and jumped to the SEC, leaving Mizzou behind in the dust along with the rest of this sorry conference.

OSU hates to be called Li'l Brother? Let them prove it. Let OU go and show us what a fine establishment you are. I still think the SEC would take us as they have room to grow to 16, though I don't know who comes with us. Honestly, I'd like it to be WV, but I think the SEC for whatever reason already shot them down.

Because the state of West Virginia was created out of opposition to the Confederacy.

[Mac94]

Another thought for long term viability ... as a conference cozy up to the SEC even more. We've seen it some in the bowl agreements but cozy up even more in OOC scheduling and working together ... maybe with the long term goal of dividing up the ACC. The SEC would love to move it's footprint into N. Carolina and Virginia ... but was blocked in the last round of realignment ... and we know there were FSU to the Big-12 rumors not to long ago. the ACC is a weak conference football wise ... and might not be all that stable long term.

I think long term either the ACC or Big-12 will fall apart and we will end up with the 4 super conferences. It won't happen overnight but it seems like that will be the pace of things. If the Big-12 can outlast the ACC maybe the SEC can get it's desire of Virginia Tech and N. Carolina and the Big-12 could add say FSU, GT, Clemson, Louisville, Pitt, Duke or N.C. St. (or pick another combo that works).

[SoonerMarkVA]

I think the ACC getting its meat hooks into ND gave it a big shot in the arm. Before that, I would have agreed that they were the long-shot. Now, though, when you compare the ACC top to bottom with the XII, at best it's even and arguably the ACC has the upper hand: FSU, UM, ND, Clemson are a pretty darn good top 4, with VT, GT, and other decent programs below. No one cares about a XII with TCU, BU, and KSU topping the conference. If OU and ut aren't competitive for national titles, the conference has no luster, at all.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I think the ACC getting its meat hooks into ND gave it a big shot in the arm. Before that, I would have agreed that they were the long-shot. Now, though, when you compare the ACC top to bottom with the XII, at best it's even and arguably the ACC has the upper hand: FSU, UM, ND, Clemson are a pretty darn good top 4, with VT, GT, and other decent programs below. No one cares about a XII with TCU, BU, and KSU topping the conference. If OU and ut aren't competitive for national titles, the conference has no luster, at all.

Agree 169%. Except that I'd say GT isn't just a decent program, but a darn good one. And, great for academics to boot...a heck of a lot better than any one of the commuter schools the Big 12 is rumored to be playing footsy with.

Texas was a heavy ACC rumor in 2010/11 as well. Wouldn't shock me with their academic snobbery that they'd like to be included with academic names like Duke and Georgia Tech if they could also keep their network that no one watches.

[Eielson]

Agree 169%.

Dammit!

[Tear Down This Wall]

Dammit!

Son, don't you do any long term investing? Anything over 100% seems to befuddle you.

[BoulderSooner79]

Agree 169%. Except for I'd say GT isn't just a decent program, but a darn good one. And, great for academics to boot...a heck of a lot better than any one of the commuter schools the Big 12 is rumored to be playing footsy with.

There is that >100% agreeing again. Please be careful, you're going to cook some grey matter.

[Tear Down This Wall]

There is that >100% agreeing again. Please be careful, you're going to cook some grey matter.

I'm beginning to realize that. I entreat them to look at it this way: "If I had bought Apple stock in 1989, my return would now be what percent?"

(Hint: It'd be greater than 100%.)

Do they teach higher math in schools anymore? Or, is it just for the Chinese and Wall Streeters?

[Eielson]

Son, don't you do any long term investing? Anything over 100% seems to befuddle you.

I hope that Cody Thomas completes 169% of his passes in our bowl game.

[Eielson]

I'm beginning to realize that. I entreat them to look at it this way: "If I had bought Apple stock in 1989, my return would now be what percent?"

(Hint: It'd be greater than 100%.)

Do they teach higher math in schools anymore? Or, is it just for the Chinese and Wall Streeters?

If you bought Apple stock in 1989, it was at about $5 per share. Right now, it's about $110. Your return would be 2,200%.

Why didn't you agree 2,200%? The fact that you only agree 169% makes me think you're not very confident.

[Tear Down This Wall]

If you bought Apple stock in 1989, it was at about $5 per share. Right now, it's about $110. Your return would be 2,200%.

Why didn't you agree 2,200%? The fact that you only agree 169% makes me think you're not very confident.

I'm not confident that we'd be invited into the ACC, but very confident in Senor SoonerMarkVA's comments.

[BoulderSooner79]

I think we're 97% of the way to off season.

[badger]

3835 percent :mad::mad::mad:

[Eielson]

I think we're 97% of the way to off season.

I agree with you 104%.

[FaninAma]

Ah geez, what a bunch of chicken littles.

Right now the SEC is the only conference better than ours, and the Pac-12 is right beside us. Every other conference is worse than ours.

This is ONE time that we didn't get our top team in the playoffs. It's not like this has happened over and over. It was just the perfect storm of two 11-1 teams splitting votes, TCU collapsing in the 4th quarter at Waco, tOSU obliterating Wisconsin in a fashion nobody expected, and Baylor suffering from non-conference scheduling decisions they made when they needed every possible win just to have a chance at bowl eligibility.

Had Alabama stumbled against Auburn or Mizzou, the SEC wouldn't have a representative, either. Same goes for Pac-12 if Oregon hadn't avenged their Arizona loss. Same for Big 10 had tOSU not destroyed Wisconsin. Same goes for FSU if they had lost any of their many close games.

We're just fine.

LOL....oh wait, you're serious. The Big 12 has not played in a title game since Missouri, Nebraska and TAMU departed. When those programs left they took whatever legitimacy the Big 12 had as a serious conference.

[Eielson]

LOL....oh wait, you're serious. The Big 12 has not played in a title game since Missouri, Nebraska and TAMU departed. When those programs left they took whatever legitimacy the Big 12 had as a serious conference.

How many undefeated teams have come out of the Big XII in that time period?

[KantoSooner]

LOL....oh wait, you're serious. The Big 12 has not played in a title game since Missouri, Nebraska and TAMU departed. When those programs left they took whatever legitimacy the Big 12 had as a serious conference.
Why not throw Colorado in there? You can not be seriously asserting that the boogers, collie cult, and Bo's feedlot tenders set the standard in the big 12.

[8timechamps]

I think the ACC getting its meat hooks into ND gave it a big shot in the arm. Before that, I would have agreed that they were the long-shot. Now, though, when you compare the ACC top to bottom with the XII, at best it's even and arguably the ACC has the upper hand: FSU, UM, ND, Clemson are a pretty darn good top 4, with VT, GT, and other decent programs below. No one cares about a XII with TCU, BU, and KSU topping the conference. If OU and ut aren't competitive for national titles, the conference has no luster, at all.

The ACC is definitely on better (more secure) footing than the Big XII. Right now, things seem to be okay in the Big XII, but I can't imagine it'll last forever. When push comes to shove, one of the two is probably going to fold, and it's highly unlikely it will be the ACC.

The biggest mistake the Big XII made was doing nothing when Louisville was available and interested. After they bolted to the ACC, that left BYU as the only viable option for expansion. Unfortunately, they bring along a lot of baggage and there isn't another school to balance them out (to get to 12). So, unless something crazy happens, there are no other realistic options for the Big XII to expand.

[Eielson]

Cincinnati is a better option than Louisville. If we want another mediocre football team to add numbers, they both can fill that space. I have no interest in Kentucky, but I'd love it if we could dip our recruiting paws into Ohio. They play some really good football up there. Just for comparison sake, rivals rates the top 80 players in Ohio (that puts them at the 4th most behind Texas, Florida, and California). They rate the top 5 in Kentucky.

If we just want quality football, we have that. No need to expand. Nobody plays better football than us except the SEC.

If it's numbers we're after, we need to do so with recruiting in mind. Supposedly the Big 10 added Maryland and Rutgers in order to increase it's recruiting territory. The SEC added A&M, which is helping them steal away even more Texas recruits than they already were. Meanwhile, OSU, Baylor, and TCU are on the rise, and will no doubt start beating us out on more and more recruits. My main point is that our (OU's) recruiting grounds are diminishing, and the SEC and Big 10 are expanding theirs. The Pac-16 sounded awesome, because we would have direct ties to California. It doesn't appear that will happen for us, though, so it would be best if we could expand in other directions. Ohio and Florida are the most fertile recruiting grounds available, so adding Cincinnati and USF or UCF would do wonders for us.

[8timechamps]

Cincinnati is a better option than Louisville. If we want another mediocre football team to add numbers, they both can fill that space. I have no interest in Kentucky, but I'd love it if we could dip our recruiting paws into Ohio. They play some really good football up there. Just for comparison sake, rivals rates the top 80 players in Ohio (that puts them at the 4th most behind Texas, Florida, and California). They rate the top 5 in Kentucky.

If we just want quality football, we have that. No need to expand. Nobody plays better football than us except the SEC.

If it's numbers we're after, we need to do so with recruiting in mind. Supposedly the Big 10 added Maryland and Rutgers in order to increase it's recruiting territory. The SEC added A&M, which is helping them steal away even more Texas recruits than they already were. Meanwhile, OSU, Baylor, and TCU are on the rise, and will no doubt start beating us out on more and more recruits. My main point is that our (OU's) recruiting grounds are diminishing, and the SEC and Big 10 are expanding theirs. The Pac-16 sounded awesome, because we would have direct ties to California. It doesn't appear that will happen for us, though, so it would be best if we could expand in other directions. Ohio and Florida are the most fertile recruiting grounds available, so adding Cincinnati and USF or UCF would do wonders for us.

Louisville is better than Cincinnati for several reasons:

Their entire athletic department is better, but there's no question the revenue generating sports (football & basketball) are much more competitive. However, the biggest difference is how their athletic departments do in generating revenue:



National Rank
Total Revenue
Total Expenses
Total Subsidy
Profit/Loss


18. Louisville
$96,193,330
$92,383,221
$10,914,122
$3,810,109


51. Cincinnati
$61,915,431
$59,540,002
$21,764,860
$2,375,429



Those are 2012 numbers, but for the purpose of this example, it tells the story. There's a 35 million dollar difference in between the two. That tells you pretty much all you need to know. Also, Louisville is close enough to be effective in the Ohio region for recruiting.

If Louisville would have joined the Big XII, they would have been the 3rd highest revenue program in the conference (and that's before Big XII TV money...although they still would be 3rd). Cincinnati would be the 11th. It's like bringing in another Iowa State.

[cvsooner]

Louisville's football and basketball programs last year would have been a welcome boost to the prestige of the Big 12.

[Eielson]

Louisville is better than Cincinnati for several reasons:

Their entire athletic department is better, but there's no question the revenue generating sports (football & basketball) are much more competitive. However, the biggest difference is how their athletic departments do in generating revenue:



National Rank
Total Revenue
Total Expenses
Total Subsidy
Profit/Loss


18. Louisville
$96,193,330
$92,383,221
$10,914,122
$3,810,109


51. Cincinnati
$61,915,431
$59,540,002
$21,764,860
$2,375,429



Those are 2012 numbers, but for the purpose of this example, it tells the story. There's a 35 million dollar difference in between the two. That tells you pretty much all you need to know. Also, Louisville is close enough to be effective in the Ohio region for recruiting.

If Louisville would have joined the Big XII, they would have been the 3rd highest revenue program in the conference (and that's before Big XII TV money...although they still would be 3rd). Cincinnati would be the 11th. It's like bringing in another Iowa State.

Honest question...why is it an advantage that Louisville brings in more revenue? Does that effect our revenue?

My take on that is that Louisville should be doing better than they are if they're spending that kind of money. Cincinnati is producing very similar results on the field to Louisville. The influx of TV money would make a bigger difference for Cincinnati.

And I know that Louisville is close to Ohio, but it's not in Ohio. If K-State went Big 10, I don't think that would spark much interest from Oklahoma HS players in that conference. If OSU went Big 10, on the other hand...

[Harris County Sooner]

It is time for one Super Conference. Here is a fictional version I found (http://norcentral.info/?p=481)

[FaninAma]

Why not throw Colorado in there? You can not be seriously asserting that the boogers, collie cult, and Bo's feedlot tenders set the standard in the big 12.
I'm not suggesting that at all. I am suggesting that when they left the Big 12 was not able to replace them with programs that have the same tradition or name recognition. Their loss very much weakened the conference.

[Eielson]

I'm not suggesting that at all. I am suggesting that when they left the Big 12 was not able to replace them with programs that have the same tradition or name recognition. Their loss very much weakened the conference.

The issue isn't that we don't have tradition or name recognition. We just don't have undefeated teams. I'm tempted to say that indicates that our conference got better (or at least deeper). In 2009, we had Texas in the MNC. After that, only 3 teams went to the MNC with 1 loss, and none of those 3 came from the Big XII, Pac-12, Big 10, ACC, Big East, AAC, C-USA, etc. All 3 came from the SEC. It's not a valid point unless you think we had a better reputation than the SEC before we lost those teams. I think we all know that's not the case, though.

[EatLeadCommie]

I think the ACC getting its meat hooks into ND gave it a big shot in the arm. Before that, I would have agreed that they were the long-shot. Now, though, when you compare the ACC top to bottom with the XII, at best it's even and arguably the ACC has the upper hand: FSU, UM, ND, Clemson are a pretty darn good top 4, with VT, GT, and other decent programs below. No one cares about a XII with TCU, BU, and KSU topping the conference. If OU and ut aren't competitive for national titles, the conference has no luster, at all.

Please. The ACC is weak sauce outside of FSU. Had FSU actually lost this year, they would not have been in the discussion over Baylor or TCU. That is how highly regarded the ACC is. When FSU was down, the conference was even worse. Miami hasn't been relevant in years. Clemson is up and down. VT is mediocre and was horrible this year-- so bad that beating Ohio State should've disqualified them from any consideration of the 4 spot. ND isn't even a real member of the conference in football.

The Big XII is almost always the #2 football conference behind the SEC. In the first half of the 2000s, I'd say they were the best conference overall. Lately, it has been more unpredictable with the Pac 12 and us butting heads for that 2 spot. The Big 10 has fallen on hard times lately, but seems to be improving with Meyer at OSU, a rejuvenated MSU, and a usually solid Wisconsin. The ACC is always generally the least highly regarded football conference along with the Big East, which ceased to exist once WVU, Pitt, Cuse, etc, all bolted. The Big XII suffers from OU and Texas being down, but make no mistake, Baylor is for real these last few years and TCU is solid this year. KSU is KSU. Solid in conference and mediocre out of it. I don't even know who they're playing in their bowl game, but I bet they lose. They're picking up the slack that TT and aTm left behind and taking advantage of us being down. If OU and TX had been their usual selves this year, I'd say we would've been neck in neck with the SEC (really the SEC West) as the best conference. We aren't, but TX is coming back. OU needs to get its head out of its *** before it is relegated to Aggie status.

[8timechamps]

Honest question...why is it an advantage that Louisville brings in more revenue? Does that effect our revenue?

My take on that is that Louisville should be doing better than they are if they're spending that kind of money. Cincinnati is producing very similar results on the field to Louisville. The influx of TV money would make a bigger difference for Cincinnati.

And I know that Louisville is close to Ohio, but it's not in Ohio. If K-State went Big 10, I don't think that would spark much interest from Oklahoma HS players in that conference. If OSU went Big 10, on the other hand...

My view is that an athletic department's revenue is correlated to their success/popularity. The popularity/success is correlated to the number of eyeballs that watch those programs. The number of eyeballs that watch those programs is correlated to the number of TV's tuned into those games. The number of TVs tuned into those games is correlated to the value of the TV contracts, and so on.

The only reason the conference hasn't already expanded with teams like SMU, Colorado State, South Florida, etc. is because those schools don't bring any monetary value to the conference (in other words, they won't grow the TV contracts). So, a team like Louisville would add value to the conference and grow that pie that everyone gets a piece of, which is the bottom line motivator in today's conference expansion.

Cincinnati isn't a horrible program, and they would provide a foot in the Ohio recruiting door, but that's about the only benefit...and that wouldn't really benefit the majority of the conference. If it were just about getting in a fertile recruiting region, there are plenty of schools in Florida that would join, same with California.

Upon a quick review of Louisville's roster, there are a half dozen or so kids from Ohio on the team. I'm sure the Cincinnati roster is loaded with Ohio kids, but the point is that Cincinnati is close enough to Ohio that it would provide an in to the pipeline. Even without either team, OU has a couple of kids from Ohio, so we're not really hurting for brand recognition nation wide.

[8timechamps]

Please. The ACC is weak sauce outside of FSU. Had FSU actually lost this year, they would not have been in the discussion over Baylor or TCU. That is how highly regarded the ACC is. When FSU was down, the conference was even worse. Miami hasn't been relevant in years. Clemson is up and down. VT is mediocre and was horrible this year-- so bad that beating Ohio State should've disqualified them from any consideration of the 4 spot. ND isn't even a real member of the conference in football.

The Big XII is almost always the #2 football conference behind the SEC. In the first half of the 2000s, I'd say they were the best conference overall. Lately, it has been more unpredictable with the Pac 12 and us butting heads for that 2 spot. The Big 10 has fallen on hard times lately, but seems to be improving with Meyer at OSU, a rejuvenated MSU, and a usually solid Wisconsin. The ACC is always generally the least highly regarded football conference along with the Big East, which ceased to exist once WVU, Pitt, Cuse, etc, all bolted. The Big XII suffers from OU and Texas being down, but make no mistake, Baylor is for real these last few years and TCU is solid this year. KSU is KSU. Solid in conference and mediocre out of it. I don't even know who they're playing in their bowl game, but I bet they lose. They're picking up the slack that TT and aTm left behind and taking advantage of us being down. If OU and TX had been their usual selves this year, I'd say we would've been neck in neck with the SEC (really the SEC West) as the best conference. We aren't, but TX is coming back. OU needs to get its head out of its *** before it is relegated to Aggie status.

You're looking at it from a football perspective (and even then, a very small sample size). The ACC isn't going to unseat anyone as the best conference in the country, but when you really start to look at it, the ACC is on firmer standing than the Big XII.

Everyone know's FSU is the big fish in that pond, but programs like Miami, Clemson and Virginia Tech are nothing to sneeze at, regardless of what they did this year. The capper is the new football relationship the ACC formed with Notre Dame. If you want to compare the Big XII to the ACC, then you have to account for ND inclusion. That makes ND and FSU the two flagship programs in the conference. That matches up with OU and Texas. After that, it's not that different.

When it comes to the next round of TV contracts, the ACC will surpass the Big XII. And while basketball isn't the driver of the money these days, ACC can hold their own with anyone in the conference, and may be at the top of the heap.

[Eielson]

My view is that an athletic department's revenue is correlated to their success/popularity. The popularity/success is correlated to the number of eyeballs that watch those programs. The number of eyeballs that watch those programs is correlated to the number of TV's tuned into those games. The number of TVs tuned into those games is correlated to the value of the TV contracts, and so on.

The only reason the conference hasn't already expanded with teams like SMU, Colorado State, South Florida, etc. is because those schools don't bring any monetary value to the conference (in other words, they won't grow the TV contracts). So, a team like Louisville would add value to the conference and grow that pie that everyone gets a piece of, which is the bottom line motivator in today's conference expansion.

Those are valid points. Louisville would bring more money in...at least from the start. I don't think those numbers tell the whole story, though. I'd imagine bringing in FSU would bring us a whole lot more viewers than Louisville, but they're lower on the list. They're even lower than KU and OSU (the Stillwater version).


Cincinnati isn't a horrible program, and they would provide a foot in the Ohio recruiting door, but that's about the only benefit...and that wouldn't really benefit the majority of the conference. If it were just about getting in a fertile recruiting region, there are plenty of schools in Florida that would join, same with California.

Fertile recruiting regions are the main thing I'm worried about, and if you read what I posted earlier, if we brought in Cincy, I'd be interested in adding UCF or USF as the other school. USF and UCF might be the longer route as far as adding TV contracts, but I think they'd bring in their fair share a few years down the road once they've started to get power-5 money, and have built up their program to be more competitive. I don't imagine we get many viewers from the state of Florida right now. If TU joined the ACC, I'd certainly watch a few more ACC games a year. UCF beat Baylor pretty good last year, and they'd have little trouble with schools like Kansas and ISU most years. They only need a few wins a year to get people excited, and who knows what it would grow to from there.

Deep down I have this hope that it would get FSU's attention when they starting losing out on a few recruits, and notice that their 1 loss teams aren't making it due to a weak conference. I know it's a long shot, but it's plausible, and I only think this 4 spots for 5 conference thing can end one of two ways. One way is for the playoffs to expand to 8 teams, which I think has at least a 50% chance in the near future. The other way it could end is to have 4 power conferences instead of 5. That likely includes some kind of merger between Big XII and ACC, and I've had my sights on FSU and Miami for a couple of years now. An Eastern division of FSU, Miami, UCF, USF, Duke, WVU, and UNC (or something like this) would be amazing. I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but this would be insanely fun for football and basketball.

I'm curious as to what California schools you think are available that would be comparable to USF or UCF. I'm all for expanding to California. Like I said, I think the Pac-16 would have helped us out immensely. We already do pretty well in California considering the distance. Playing their consistently would be a great opportunity.


Upon a quick review of Louisville's roster, there are a half dozen or so kids from Ohio on the team. I'm sure the Cincinnati roster is loaded with Ohio kids, but the point is that Cincinnati is close enough to Ohio that it would provide an in to the pipeline. Even without either team, OU has a couple of kids from Ohio, so we're not really hurting for brand recognition nation wide.

I know that Louisville is capable of getting Ohio players. It's kind of like Oklahoma schools grabbing Texas players. It's bound to happen. If OSU joined the Big 10, though, I don't see that helping Big 10 schools get a foot into Texas. In the same way, I don't know that Louisville would help us from a recruiting perspective.

[EatLeadCommie]

You're looking at it from a football perspective (and even then, a very small sample size). The ACC isn't going to unseat anyone as the best conference in the country, but when you really start to look at it, the ACC is on firmer standing than the Big XII.

Everyone know's FSU is the big fish in that pond, but programs like Miami, Clemson and Virginia Tech are nothing to sneeze at, regardless of what they did this year. The capper is the new football relationship the ACC formed with Notre Dame. If you want to compare the Big XII to the ACC, then you have to account for ND inclusion. That makes ND and FSU the two flagship programs in the conference. That matches up with OU and Texas. After that, it's not that different.

When it comes to the next round of TV contracts, the ACC will surpass the Big XII. And while basketball isn't the driver of the money these days, ACC can hold their own with anyone in the conference, and may be at the top of the heap.

The ACC is on secure footing simply because of basketball tradition, even if it has been the most overrated hoops conference for about 10 years running now. The 4 tobacco road schools are the nucleus, and the addition of Louisville and Cuse only make it more of a viable long term option as a hoops conference, and also adds conference stability overall.

But for football, it doesn't really strengthen their perception. ND is not a member of the conference in football. It has an affiliation, and an agreement to play 5 games/year versus ACC schools. It also can steal their bowl affiliation if it is ranked higher. But it won't be showing up in the standings of the ACC.

So yeah, more stable than the Big XII right now, which I think will implode if they add Cinci and Memphis. I think the conference just needs to lick its wounds and suck it up and realize that it would be in the playoff if not for the perfect storm that occurred last week. I think if Baylor had lost, TCU would be in. If TCU had lost, I'm not so sure Baylor would be. But when you throw in Ohio State's margin of victory, them being Ohio State, Baylor and TCU being Baylor and TCU, the committee not wanting to deal with the Baylor/TCU choice, and the new Big XII commish having his head in the sand, you get something like this. It is kind of a freak occurrence, much like having 3 major unbeatens in 2004 was.

[8timechamps]

The ACC is on secure footing simply because of basketball tradition, even if it has been the most overrated hoops conference for about 10 years running now. The 4 tobacco road schools are the nucleus, and the addition of Louisville and Cuse only make it more of a viable long term option as a hoops conference, and also adds conference stability overall.

But for football, it doesn't really strengthen their perception. ND is not a member of the conference in football. It has an affiliation, and an agreement to play 5 games/year versus ACC schools. It also can steal their bowl affiliation if it is ranked higher. But it won't be showing up in the standings of the ACC.

So yeah, more stable than the Big XII right now, which I think will implode if they add Cinci and Memphis. I think the conference just needs to lick its wounds and suck it up and realize that it would be in the playoff if not for the perfect storm that occurred last week. I think if Baylor had lost, TCU would be in. If TCU had lost, I'm not so sure Baylor would be. But when you throw in Ohio State's margin of victory, them being Ohio State, Baylor and TCU being Baylor and TCU, the committee not wanting to deal with the Baylor/TCU choice, and the new Big XII commish having his head in the sand, you get something like this. It is kind of a freak occurrence, much like having 3 major unbeatens in 2004 was.

Okay, we're on the same page then.

I agree, adding two teams for the sake of getting to twelve (considering there aren't two quality teams to add) would ultimately hurt (and probably destroy) the conference. I also agree that the conference needs to realize they are getting left behind (which I think they are aware of now), and correct the things that can be corrected with the current set-up.

In all honestly, I could care less if Baylor or TCU got left out of 10 play-offs, so my only concern is what happens when OU is in that situation. In reality, I think OU's brand (and the eyeballs that come with it) would have been enough to get them in this year (if they had been one of the two co champs), however, Bowlsby should have seen this coming, and there was plenty of time to make corrections.

[DBrown]

WE COULD OWN CONFERENCE USA AND HAVE A WAREHOUSE SIZED TROPHY CASE!

[stoopified]

[QUOTE=Eielson;4908843]Cincy would be alright, but they're all the way out there in Ohio. Ohio has some good football players, so it might help a tad with recruiting. I'd much prefer that over adding Houston.

I'd rather do nothing right now, though.[/QUOTE ]Solich has built a solid program at UO and IMHO would be a good pairing to bring in with Cincy.Even if they don't add to football(although I think they would),they certainly add to our basketball profile.If we brought in BYU,we would proably add BSU as well.2 up and coming programs to consider IMHO are UCF and USF. What all these have is potential to sell their football programs to recruits and donors if they could become part of a Bi5 conference such as the Big 12-2. All do have some winning history and the schools in Ohio and Fla are in prime recruiting areas.

[EatLeadCommie]

Really? The only thing worse than bringing in Cinci and Memphis is bringing in Ohio U, USF, and UCF. That is just a horrific idea. Ohio State is the football school in Ohio. Nobody else matters in the least. My god, you're talking about poaching the MAC!

[stoopified]

Really? The only thing worse than bringing in Cinci and Memphis is bringing in Ohio U, USF, and UCF. That is just a horrific idea. Ohio State is the football school in Ohio. Nobody else matters in the least. My god, you're talking about poaching the MAC!My point is that Ohio St. cannot get all the talent in football rich Ohio,put Cincy and Ohio in a Big 5 conference to recruit to and you might have potential for good football.Certainly the chance to be better than ISU,KU, In any case they improbe basketball profile.

For the record I would prefer adding Louisville,Clemson,Florida State in addition to Cincy but everything I have read and heard says that these three are out of reach.UO,Cincy,USF,UCF,all bring a new market and easier acess to fertile recruiting grounds.Dis UCF? Recall that last year they humbled Baylor.

[GreenSooner]

Put Cincinnati in a Big 5 conference and it could get good fast. Look, we've just had a season in which TCU and Baylor dominated the conference. A decade ago that would have been unthinkable. I'd certainly prefer to add, e.g., Georgia Tech and FSU. But adding Cincinnati and one of the other Florida schools may be better than sitting on our behinds and watching the Big 5 become the Big 4 with the Big XII on the outside looking in.

[EatLeadCommie]

UCF had their best season ever last year and beat a Baylor team that obviously didn't care about being at the Fiesta Bowl. Granted, O'Leary has them trending positively. USF hasn't done anything in a few years. Ohio is a mediocre to bad team traditionally in a subpar conference. They are at their apex right now with Solich giving them 4-6 loss seasons. The state of Ohio does have a lot of football talent that Ohio State doesn't get...so it goes to other places like Penn State, Michigan, Michigan State, Pitt, etc... Every now and then an academic casualty or two will end up at a program like Ohio and exceed.

[Eielson]

UCF had their best season ever last year and beat a Baylor team that obviously didn't care about being at the Fiesta Bowl.

In UCF's best season ever, they beat Baylor...who was also having their best season ever.

[EatLeadCommie]

In UCF's best season ever, they beat Baylor...who was also having their best season ever.

Take it up with SicEm. Baylor was a much better team than what they showed in the Fiesta Bowl.

[Rock Hard Corn Frog]

To me the status quo is the worst course of action. Either the Big 12 expands (Cincy and UCF would be my first 2 choices) or OU finds a way to jump to the Pac12, SEC,ACC whatever. Yes I think the 2 schools that are brought in are not going to do anything for the prestige of the league as far as football goes but Cincy is a relatively short trip from WV.

I don't think an OU team that goes 12-1 and wins a conference championship game is going to miss a playoff because Cincy joined the league.
I do think an OU team that goes 11-1 and is part of a 2 or 3-way tiebreaker for a Big 12 championship could get passed over like TCU and Baylor were.

I think the tradition of the OU-Texas game is the best in all college football but I am more than happy to tell Texas to get bent if it is in the best interest of OU football and OU jumps to another league.

[cvsooner]

Take it up with SicEm. Baylor was a much better team than what they showed in the Fiesta Bowl.

We could say that about 2007 and 2008 Fiestas too...

[Eielson]

Take it up with SicEm. Baylor was a much better team than what they showed in the Fiesta Bowl.

Yeahh......and Alabama just thought the Sugar Bowl was a consolation game.

[Sabanball]

So what does the Big 12 do with Baylor? Nobody seems to want them? I think the SEC would take OU and OSU but I don't think they would take Baylor or TCU. You are correct in your recollection of the PAC 10 not wanting Baylor.

No way the SEC ever takes the pokes. They, more than texas I think, are primarily why you're not in our conference. Well, that and David Boren.

[Eielson]

No way the SEC ever takes the pokes. They, more than texas I think, are primarily why you're not in our conference. Well, that and David Boren.

You don't think that the SEC would take OU+Texas?

[EatLeadCommie]

The SEC took Mizzou. To say they wouldn't take the Pokes is a bit silly, IMHO.

[soonergirlNeugene]

I think what Sabanball is getting at is their 1 school per state expansion policy.

[UteSooner]

What if we add 2 teams, go to an 8-game conference schedule and make Nebraska a permanent OOC game. On top of that continue to schedule a name-brand P5 team OOC like we've been doing. I think that actually soundo better than what we've got now.