Long post on random topics about this football team..Worst Thread Title Ever.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Long post coming.. This is notes from a conversation with a few others that I was doing a Q and A with..One of the questions was about Thomas the corner turning his back to the WR at the snap whenever we get to that part..


I talked to a guy I used to work with at CDS(Consensus Draft Services) and the guy I just went to work with again. We had a 2 hour conversation on the phone that will be edited down for podcast soon(hopefully). Bill was at William and Mary when Mike Tomlin played there and is a genius of the game through and through.

Anyway, the reason he called was to discuss Charles Tapper. He mentions how much he likes him, that he is a second round pick who could have an NFL career of 8/9 sacks a year playing 40% of the snaps. And before i can say anything about how disappointing he has been, he says, "The more film I have looked at on him the more I have no idea what Oklahoma is doing on defense. I have never seen a bigger mess with so many good football players."

We talked about the 3-4 defense and how Mike doesn't understand it. he says that Mike should have stuck with what he ran the first time around in the 4-2-5 variation. How Eric Striker would have been a star as well as Tapper. We started talking about the LBs and Bill said your linebackers and your secondary are being coached by coaches who are in fear. They aren't coaching those guys to make plays, they are being coached to stop the worst case scenario..He brought up the baylor game where Dom Alexander had 18 tackles and called it the most unimpressive 18 tackle game you could see. He mentioned Jordan Evans and he thinks he could be a pretty good player. He brought up Geno Grissom as a good player. but he said I haven't found a game where those guys were coached to go create havoc. They were coached to react to everything.

So Scott, I think they played OK all season based on the coaching and positions they were put in, but did they get used to their potential, no. They get blown off the ball because they are on their heels a lot.

He brought up the secondary when I asked him about the Thomas technique we saw with turning your back. He said that is straight scared coaching where you just hope that guy doesn't burn you deep but you are giving up everything else to him. There is no way, like Greg said, that a corner can cover a WR like that. He asked me why Mike was so sold out on going M2M when Thomas, Wilson, and Sanchez are all cover 2 corners. I said it was a square peg they were trying to pound into a round hole. Didn't make sense to me either.

He didn't understand the alignment issues with the Safeties in the 3-4 games he watched, especially considering Bob and Mike were DBs in college. He did say that overall there was a lack of good safety play everywhere in college and the NFL because of the idea in high school and colleges to put the guy who isn't big enough to be LB or quick enough to be corner at safety. The guy playing safety should be just as good of an athlete as any other position and I said that explains Ahmad Thomas.

Bill said Tapper, Phillips, Grissom, Striker, and Sanchez are all NFL caliber players BTW.

It was all interesting to me because here is a guy who lives in the Northeast who isn't a fan saying the same things most of us are.

[olevetonahill]

I like.

[FaninAma]

Thanks for the post. I agree that against spread offenses a "read and react" defense is going to get abused especially by good QBs.( Heck, even Alabama's vaunted defense got abused by good spread offenses.) The only chance of slowing them down is to force turnovers and you do not do that by playing passively. Once teams figured out OU's blitz package with Striker and adjusted it became much less effective. Mike and Bob still coach the way they did 10 years ago....stop the run first, do not give up big plays. They apparently haven't figured out that the really good teams we play are a lot more comfortable passing the ball. I disagree about his assessment of our LB's. We had very average LBs this year that were OK in run defense but horrible in pass defense. Our Dbs are going to have to get a lot more physical and dirupt the timing of pass routes otherwise we will continue to see the 10 yard cushions in an attempt to not get burned.

On defense we need better DBs and LBs. On offense we need a crap load of receivers.

[olevetonahill]

I think Bob needs to look long and hard at his staff and decide if he wants to be remembered as a Great coach here.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Thanks for the post. I agree that against spread offenses a "read and react" defense is going to get abused especially by good QBs.( Heck, even Alabama's vaunted defense got abused by good spread offenses.) The only chance of slowing them down is to force turnovers and you do not do that by playing passively. Once teams figured out OU's blitz package with Striker and adjusted it became much less effective. Mike and Bob still coach the way they did 10 years ago....stop the run first, do not give up big plays. They apparently haven't figured out that the really good teams we play are a lot more comfortable passing the ball. I disagree about his assessment of our LB's. We had very average LBs this year that were OK in run defense but horrible in pass defense. Our Dbs are going to have to get a lot more physical and dirupt the timing of pass routes otherwise we will continue to see the 10 yard cushions in an attempt to not get burned.

On defense we need better DBs and LBs. On offense we need a crap load of receivers.

And the whole point of running a 3-4 with M2M coverages is not giving that cushion.. Against the spread there has to be some press.. If you are afraid of getting burned deep, then M2M has to be scrapped..And we were trying to do M2M with cover 2 corners.

When you talk about DBs getting more physical and disrupting routes, that is more coaching than personnel. The cushions were not a reaction to them not being able to do that. It was just, as Bill put it, "scared coaching."

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I personally think all of the blitz calls are being tipped too early to the offense also. Very easy to see where the pressure is going to come from and the meerkat offenses make it easier to change the call after that.

[KantoSooner]

All right. STEP, I have long enjoyed your posts and learned a lot about football from them. I respect your opinion. So, it's time to, for argument, if nothing else, step back, accept the diagnosis and talk implications.
In effect, you are talking about a team that has the horses to be good. Or at least better than they are now. But they are being directed not to win but to 'not lose'. All technical issues aside, that's what is being said. And it fits the facts as we have seen them on the field. (And there may be other facts that we are not privy to....but we can only work with what we've got and cover our butts by admitting that we might not know it all).
Your post above addresses the defense, but the basic argument could be made of the offense as well. Talent? There's plenty. Maybe not championship caliber, but plenty to do much better than we did. We've all bitched all season long about 'play calling' and 'lack of identity' but the argument could be made quite well that the root cause of all of that is coaches going into their shell and refusing to take ANY risk...and paying the price.
Now, JH may be over his head. But he didn't become a girly man over night. Norvell? He's always had some fire. And so forth and so on. WTF is up with these guys?
I'm edging around to concluding that the common factor in all of this is Bob. And it truly pains me to say that. Not only has he been an absolute titan for this team and University, but he has shown kindness to my family with a personal letter to my uber-fan grandfather as said grandpa was dying. I have every reason to like the guy. But it's starting to become obvious that the restraint and confusion emanate from him.
Glass half full: if it's coming from one source, it can be changed at that source, by that source. Can Bob get nasty again? Will he? I don't know, but I hope so. He now really doesn't have any time left. It's pretty much got to happen this off season. I think even the same record next year would be swallowed by the fan base IF there was a clear direction.
it is perhaps a good thing for a teacher to let his students find themselves. And we know that Bob, as a coach's son, is proud of the coaching tree legacy he's building. But, as a leader, it is up to him to set the course. I don't know why this has been lacking. But, the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that lack of clear leadership is something the sooners have not had enough of for several, if not many, years now.
I'm hoping Bob gets his mojo back.

[Sooner8th]

I think Bob needs to look long and hard at his staff and decide if he wants to be remembered as a Great coach here.

Wow - we completely agree on something.

[Tear Down This Wall]

This was basically discussed yesterday, the players reacting in the 3-4 instead of attacking like we used to in the 4-3.

Again, the Stoopses (and Venables) used to say at the coaching stops that the goal of the defense was to dictate to the offense. It isn't that way anymore.

Those little 3-3-5 defenses and 4-2-5 defenses are for schools who can't recruit enough good defensive linemen to wreck the timing of plays. I'm thinking here of the Dusty Dvoraceks, Tommie Harrises, and Gerald McCoys of yesteryears' 4-3 defense that wreaked havoc on Texas, Mizzou, Tech, and anyone else running that stupid four yards behind or in front of the line of scrimmage offense. We used to stop them with regularity in those 4-3s.

It's disheartening to know that our coaches consider our lot to be no better than 3-3-5/4-2-5.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Just to add to this, I think Stephen Parker is going to be pretty good. Byrd could be a great royback if we swapped back to the 4-2-5 again.

I also think Ndulae might catch on as a UDFA journeyman somewhere. He has such a high football IQ for a lineman and some old warhorse will love that (like a Marinelli).

[stoops the eternal pimp]

All right. STEP, I have long enjoyed your posts and learned a lot about football from them. I respect your opinion. So, it's time to, for argument, if nothing else, step back, accept the diagnosis and talk implications.
In effect, you are talking about a team that has the horses to be good. Or at least better than they are now. But they are being directed not to win but to 'not lose'. All technical issues aside, that's what is being said. And it fits the facts as we have seen them on the field. (And there may be other facts that we are not privy to....but we can only work with what we've got and cover our butts by admitting that we might not know it all).
Your post above addresses the defense, but the basic argument could be made of the offense as well. Talent? There's plenty. Maybe not championship caliber, but plenty to do much better than we did. We've all bitched all season long about 'play calling' and 'lack of identity' but the argument could be made quite well that the root cause of all of that is coaches going into their shell and refusing to take ANY risk...and paying the price.
Now, JH may be over his head. But he didn't become a girly man over night. Norvell? He's always had some fire. And so forth and so on. WTF is up with these guys?
I'm edging around to concluding that the common factor in all of this is Bob. And it truly pains me to say that. Not only has he been an absolute titan for this team and University, but he has shown kindness to my family with a personal letter to my uber-fan grandfather as said grandpa was dying. I have every reason to like the guy. But it's starting to become obvious that the restraint and confusion emanate from him.
Glass half full: if it's coming from one source, it can be changed at that source, by that source. Can Bob get nasty again? Will he? I don't know, but I hope so. He now really doesn't have any time left. It's pretty much got to happen this off season. I think even the same record next year would be swallowed by the fan base IF there was a clear direction.
it is perhaps a good thing for a teacher to let his students find themselves. And we know that Bob, as a coach's son, is proud of the coaching tree legacy he's building. But, as a leader, it is up to him to set the course. I don't know why this has been lacking. But, the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that lack of clear leadership is something the sooners have not had enough of for several, if not many, years now.
I'm hoping Bob gets his mojo back.
Bob, IMO, has become like a lot of Sooner fans..In love with nostalgia. Ever notice every time a coaching vacancy or potential need is glaring, most fans bring up guys who have already been here..It was that way with Mike, heck there is even people who want Mangino back.. Which makes no sense to me.

It's time for an outside voice, someone outside of the Youngstown Ohio mindset to come in..Just my opinion.

Just for fun, I made up a list of guys that would make good coordinators here..I stayed away from the most notable guys because their next move is probably to HC somewhere, not another coordinator job at OU.

Anyway, the list.

OC

Scott Frost-Long shot..Long. But isn't that the offense what we are recruiting for? Familiar with the area, can recruit this region, QBs coach who has done a spectacular job.

Jake Spavital- Oklahoma Kid, has worked under Dana Holgerson and Kevin Sumlin..Can recruit the South and Southeast. Again, has worked in the Air Raid and with Mobile QBs(Manziel for one). Tulsa interviewed him for their HC job but no word yet.

Nick Rolovich- Nevada OC. Worked at Hawaii and Nevada, again working in an Air Raid system and then tutoring mobile QBs for the Wolfpack. Can recruit the west were OU has a couple of pipelines working.

Kyle Shananan- Ties to the program, young guy with NFL experience. Has coached QBs, mobile qbs, in the league and has a lot of experience for a 33 year old.

DC.

DJ Durkin- DC for Muschamp at UF..Can recruit the southeast and despite the offensive woes, the defense is stacked. Can coach linebackers and pretty much clones the Muschamp system. Interim who will be looking for a job soon.

Steve Wilks, DBs coach Carolina Panthers. Outstanding position coach with college experience. I think an NFL defensive coach is what is necessary to come up with a system in this conference. Was DB coach of the Bears defense when they were at their pinnacle in the early 2000s.

Brendan Daly, DL coach Vikings. Strong personality, has produced good defensive lines every where he has been. fundamentally sound coaching with passion..

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Just to add to this, I think Stephen Parker is going to be pretty good. Byrd could be a great royback if we swapped back to the 4-2-5 again.

I also think Ndulae might catch on as a UDFA journeyman somewhere. He has such a high football IQ for a lineman and some old warhorse will love that (like a Marinelli).

Don't disagree on Ndulae..I was listing draft picks but I definitely think he has 7th round-UDFA ability..

And I can't believe I left Jordan Phillips off of that list.

[rock on sooner]

STEP, fantastic OP! Did you guys break down the offense in another phone
conversation? Here's a suggestion...do NOT edit a thing...take the complete
transcript, copy it (the one on offense, too!?) put it in a plain brown envelope
and slide it under B. Stoops office door.....some frank evaluations given to the
powers that be could, might, we can only hope, actually do create positive
change. Cristal clearly, good football minds hard at work in the post!!!

BOOMER!!

[badger]

Would it be fair to assume that everyone eligible that will be drafted regardless of round is headed to the NFL, not staying at OU?

After seeing one of our corners (Julian?) blow up at Mike on the sideline after being instructed over and over to give a 10-yard cushion to the opposing receivers then sit back as pass after pass gets completed for positive yardages uncontested.... yeah, I'd say our defense has major issues

[BoulderSooner79]

I really like the idea of getting coordinators with some NFL experience. I would especially love to see that on offense to help the passing game. I think ours is to simplistic and why it takes exceptional talent like Shepard just to get open. We need production from good, college level WRs.

[Sooner8th]

The most disappointing thing about this staff is that it seems it is disintegrating into john blake territory. Bad schemes and playing guys in the wrong position. I am at the point where I don't think we can recruit anyone who can make the scheme work, in other words - don't think any player can make this defensive scheme work.

[KantoSooner]

STEP, THANKS for the list of coordinators. There is simply no way I can devote enough time to the game to have much of an overview of who's hot amongst asst coaches these days.

[Eielson]

Doesn't TCU run a 4-2-5? I'd imagine after a 4 (maybe 5) loss season, we'll make some switches. I don't think it's too far-fetched for that to be one of them, seeing as TCU's defense worked pretty well with the exception of the Baylor game.

Speaking of lack of talent at safety, from what you've seen, does Steven Parker look like he could develop into an NFL-caliber safety?

[cherokeebrewer]

It's time for an outside voice, someone outside of the Youngstown Ohio mindset to come in..Just my opinion.


We have the same opinion...

[Tear Down This Wall]

Puke. Is everyone asleep? TCU has had one winning season in three years in the Big 12...and, we want to copy them?

We've already switched to a defense that admits we can't recruit enough DTs to make a 4-3 work. How many more times must we raise the white flag to opposing OCs?

[Eielson]

Puke. Is everyone asleep? TCU has had one winning season in three years in the Big 12...and, we want to copy them?

We've already switched to a defense that admits we can't recruit enough DTs to make a 4-3 work. How many more times must we raise the white flag to opposing OCs?

Huh? STEP said Mike used a 4-2-5 variation his first time around, and would be better going back to that again.

[ouduckhunter]

This would make really good reading in a letter to the editor in major newspapers.

[Soonerjeepman]

"The more film I have looked at on him the more I have no idea what Oklahoma is doing on defense. I have never seen a bigger mess with so many good football players."

so, to a common guy like me...that says COACHING~ but we hear the same old excuse every Sunday...players didn't make plays. Yes, I know that's part of it, BUT if an NFL guy thinks we have so many good football players....just saying.

[hawaii 5-0]

If Bob is so sincere about winning Big 12 Championships I would hope he makes the necessary changes to make that happen regardless of loyalties.

I like Boulder's suggestion of bringing in more NFL coaches.

We have talent. They just need better coaching.

5-0

[Tear Down This Wall]

This is what Bob needs to do - get back to recruiting stud DTs, switch back to the 4-3, and attack.

This crap of stealing Romar, a kid who will never start here, from North Texas on signing day three years ago and the like...that isn't smart.

Get someone in here who can recruit the big boys up front again and quit fooling around in these small school defenses. Stoops has completely overthought this thing. He needs to get back to what brought him and OU championship seasons.

[8timechamps]

There's nothing inherently wrong with running a 3-4 defense, and a team can produce a stifling defense under that system. The problem is Mike doesn't know how to run it, and he's coaching scared. It's apparent in the way we play defense, and the way he reacts to questions in his post game press conferences.

If Mike could recruit to that system better, and bring someone in with extensive knowledge of the 3-4, then I think that would change a lot of what we've seen handicapping the team this year. Whether or not that will happen remains to be seen.

Otherwise, get back to what you know. You can defend spread offenses with the 4-3, if you have the right personnel.

What made this season (defensively) so frustrating was knowing we had talent that could play with anyone and watching them be reigned in game after game. Looking back, the Tennessee game was probably the only game when Mike didn't seem to coach scared. He allowed our defense to do what it does best, attack. Sadly, that's about the only time we saw that.

[UteSooner]

Puke. Is everyone asleep? TCU has had one winning season in three years in the Big 12...and, we want to copy them?

You don't give them ANY time to transition to a power conference? They did it remarkably fast and I doubt they've hit their ceiling.

4-2-5 sounds logical to me.....more speed against the spread than a 4-3 but you avoid 3 man rushes (which I generally hate).

[BoulderSooner79]

You don't give them ANY time to transition to a power conference? They did it remarkably fast and I doubt they've hit their ceiling.

4-2-5 sounds logical to me.....more speed against the spread than a 4-3 but you avoid 3 man rushes (which I generally hate).

And TCU has had a defense that has stood up to the big boys for many seasons now. They won the conference this year because they also fielded and effective offense. But I'm not calling for any particular scheme as many have worked, I'd just like a coaching staff that can recruit for it and teach it well.

[Eielson]

And TCU has had a defense that has stood up to the big boys for many seasons now. They won the conference this year because they also fielded and effective offense. But I'm not calling for any particular scheme as many have worked, I'd just like a coaching staff that can recruit for it and teach it well.

I felt like we really struggled offensively against them this year, but our 33 points was our conference record against them. The previous two meetings we won 24-17 and 20-17.

[BoulderSooner79]

I felt like we really struggled offensively against them this year, but our 33 points was our conference record against them. The previous two meetings we won 24-17 and 20-17.

They went uptempo on offense which almost always hurts defensive stats. But it clearly was a net win for them. They also down graded talent a bit since they lost Fields (DT) to discipline problems and graduated a 1st round draft pick CB. Not quite as stout as recent years, but I don't think it was a scheme problem.

[Eielson]

They went uptempo on offense which almost always hurts defensive stats. But it clearly was a net win for them. They also down graded talent a bit since they lost Fields (DT) to discipline problems and graduated a 1st round draft pick CB. Not quite as stout as recent years, but I don't think it was a scheme problem.

I can't imagine how brutal that game would have been had Verrett still been there to cover Shepard.

[cvsooner]

There's nothing inherently wrong with running a 3-4 defense, and a team can produce a stifling defense under that system. The problem is Mike doesn't know how to run it, and he's coaching scared. It's apparent in the way we play defense, and the way he reacts to questions in his post game press conferences.

If Mike could recruit to that system better, and bring someone in with extensive knowledge of the 3-4, then I think that would change a lot of what we've seen handicapping the team this year. Whether or not that will happen remains to be seen.

Otherwise, get back to what you know. You can defend spread offenses with the 4-3, if you have the right personnel.

What made this season (defensively) so frustrating was knowing we had talent that could play with anyone and watching them be reigned in game after game. Looking back, the Tennessee game was probably the only game when Mike didn't seem to coach scared. He allowed our defense to do what it does best, attack. Sadly, that's about the only time we saw that.

Basically any time the QB is a decent threat to run he's terrified. McElroy wasn't going out of the pocket at Alabama and whatsisface with Tennessee was a dang statue. I guess it's what he knows.

[8timechamps]

Basically any time the QB is a decent threat to run he's terrified. McElroy wasn't going out of the pocket at Alabama and whatsisface with Tennessee was a dang statue. I guess it's what he knows.

That's how it started, but then he kept doing it...look no further than last Saturday. There is no reason we should ever have dropped 7 or 8 into coverage against a true freshman playing QB (and not the most mobile kid either). Again, it felt like the defensive scheme was to react to whatever OSU was doing, rather than forcing our will on the offense and forcing them to adjust and be uncomfortable.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

There's nothing inherently wrong with running a 3-4 defense, and a team can produce a stifling defense under that system. The problem is Mike doesn't know how to run it, and he's coaching scared. It's apparent in the way we play defense, and the way he reacts to questions in his post game press conferences.

If Mike could recruit to that system better, and bring someone in with extensive knowledge of the 3-4, then I think that would change a lot of what we've seen handicapping the team this year. Whether or not that will happen remains to be seen.

Otherwise, get back to what you know. You can defend spread offenses with the 4-3, if you have the right personnel.

What made this season (defensively) so frustrating was knowing we had talent that could play with anyone and watching them be reigned in game after game. Looking back, the Tennessee game was probably the only game when Mike didn't seem to coach scared. He allowed our defense to do what it does best, attack. Sadly, that's about the only time we saw that.

I agree I don't think there is anything wrong with running a 3-4 base defense. Just div 1 football at Oklahoma isn't the place you decide to learn it.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Huh? STEP said Mike used a 4-2-5 variation his first time around, and would be better going back to that again.

Brent was 4-3..Mike was 4-2-5..That's were a lot of "debating" would go on between 2..Mike did play some 4-3 based on the opponent, down and distance, etc.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

So doing some film study with one of the Dolphins scouts, and the words he used to describe Geneo Grissom were, "grossly misused as an edge pass rusher." Said he will be a lot better in the NFL than college.

[cvsooner]

[QUOTE=8timechamps;4909129]That's how it started, but then he kept doing it...look no further than last Saturday. There is no reason we should ever have dropped 7 or 8 into coverage against a true freshman playing QB (and not the most mobile kid either). Again, it felt like the defensive scheme was to react to whatever OSU was doing, rather than forcing our will on the offense and forcing them to adjust and be uncomfortable.[/QUOTE

My observation is Mike has absolutely no faith in the ability of the linebackers or the secondary to cover receivers. How much of that is coaching failure and how much on the players, I don't know, but especially on deep balls--this problem goes back over a decade.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I don't understand the "have confidence in" bit. I mean, when Bob and Mike first got here, they are working with an entire roster recruited by John Blake, i.e., mostly diamonds in the rough.

How can they have, within two seasons, had those guys hoisting the crystal ball, yet have no confidence in these blue chips they've been recruiting ever since?

Come on, man. The defensive line in 2000 was Ryan Fisher, Cory Heinecke, Barry Holleyman, Jeremy Wilson-Guest Kory Klein, and Ramon Richardson - four Blake holdovers, a true freshman, and a JUCO in a 4-3 defense. And, Wilson-Guest could barely walk due to back problems by the end of the season. These were not guy offered by every one. And, we shut down a bunch of teams.

"Have confidence in"? Come on.

That's what I'm talking about when I say maybe these coaches at OU are too comfortable.

[badger]

grossly misused

I bet you could use this with a lot of our NFL prospects. This is going to impact recruiting a lot this spring, isn't it :(

[birddog]

When your coach isn't comfortable with his players because his players aren't comfortable with their assignments then just yell at em! Mikey seems to have resigned himself to this.

[cvsooner]

I don't understand the "have confidence in" bit. I mean, when Bob and Mike first got here, they are working with an entire roster recruited by John Blake, i.e., mostly diamonds in the rough.

How can they have, within two seasons, had those guys hoisting the crystal ball, yet have no confidence in these blue chips they've been recruiting ever since?

Come on, man. The defensive line in 2000 was Ryan Fisher, Cory Heinecke, Barry Holleyman, Jeremy Wilson-Guest Kory Klein, and Ramon Richardson - four Blake holdovers, a true freshman, and a JUCO in a 4-3 defense. And, Wilson-Guest could barely walk due to back problems by the end of the season. These were not guy offered by every one. And, we shut down a bunch of teams.

"Have confidence in"? Come on.

That's what I'm talking about when I say maybe these coaches at OU are too comfortable.

Well, a couple of possibilities come to mind. Maybe this is a coaching staff that isn't all that great at evaluating talent. It could also be, to some extent, that the physically gifted aren't terribly good football players. My own experience was that the best natural athletes I've ever been around weren't necessarily great students of the game, and if they didn't have the physical advantage could be out-strategized and out-executed. (I sound like Bob, but there's a lot of truth there.) I think that's why great, notable players for the most part don't make very good coaches, because they just do what they do. Whereas the less gifted have to work at it really hard and can find a way to become a better player.

The ones who can convey that knowledge to players and get results make for very good coaches. There's also the issue of motivation. I'm not sure Bob is all that great a motivator, though I see him trying.

I know both Bob and Mike were pretty good to very good DBs, 30-plus years ago. Not so sure they're great coaches especially at their positions. Cale Gundy seems to be a good coach though he's coaching a position he didn't play. Josh Heupel does okay strictly as a QB guy but his record as an OC calling the plays is...mixed, to say the least.

I dunno. I think we're all looking for answers. It may be something as simple as key elements of the coaching staff working with players to modify their skills and them never getting over the hump--or it takes a long time to get there--and in college you simply don't have the time for development. Or not much time. Or the personnel.

Example: our top WR is returning punts. He gets injured. Now we've got our top DB catching punts. Forget returning one because the absolute last thing the D needs is for Sanchez to get dinged up (further than he was). All I can figure is we don't have anybody else on a roster of 85 players who can catch a punt? Apparently so.

[8timechamps]

[QUOTE=8timechamps;4909129]That's how it started, but then he kept doing it...look no further than last Saturday. There is no reason we should ever have dropped 7 or 8 into coverage against a true freshman playing QB (and not the most mobile kid either). Again, it felt like the defensive scheme was to react to whatever OSU was doing, rather than forcing our will on the offense and forcing them to adjust and be uncomfortable.[/QUOTE

My observation is Mike has absolutely no faith in the ability of the linebackers or the secondary to cover receivers. How much of that is coaching failure and how much on the players, I don't know, but especially on deep balls--this problem goes back over a decade.

Absolutely.

Having three new starters in the secondary is part of the issue, but if you're not confident in their ability, either use different personnel or change the system to fit what you have.

Zack Sanchez is a very good corner (when healthy). Julian Wilson was a solid nickle back, unfortunately, he was learning to play CB in a new system...not a great idea when there's so much inexperience around him.

I do believe Parker will be a very good player (he has developed quite a bit over the year, and I expect that to continue). Byrd and Ahmad Thomas are question marks. I think either could get the job done if everyone around them knows what they're doing. Losing Hayes will be rough, but I think we'll be fine with Parker and either Byrd or Thomas with him. We also have Sunderland coming in too.

The bottom line is Mike either has to coach better, or change schemes. We have the talent, but he's using it incorrectly and he has no faith in their ability.

[cvsooner]

Stephen Parker was named honorable mention for Freshman Defensive Player of the Year by the Big 12 so there's that.

[Eielson]

Stephen Parker was named honorable mention for Freshman Defensive Player of the Year by the Big 12 so there's that.

I also heard something along the lines of us setting a record for most all-conference players in Big XII history this year, so there's that as well. All-conference is often too much about name recognition.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I don't understand the "have confidence in" bit. I mean, when Bob and Mike first got here, they are working with an entire roster recruited by John Blake, i.e., mostly diamonds in the rough.

How can they have, within two seasons, had those guys hoisting the crystal ball, yet have no confidence in these blue chips they've been recruiting ever since?

Come on, man. The defensive line in 2000 was Ryan Fisher, Cory Heinecke, Barry Holleyman, Jeremy Wilson-Guest Kory Klein, and Ramon Richardson - four Blake holdovers, a true freshman, and a JUCO in a 4-3 defense. And, Wilson-Guest could barely walk due to back problems by the end of the season. These were not guy offered by every one. And, we shut down a bunch of teams.

"Have confidence in"? Come on.

That's what I'm talking about when I say maybe these coaches at OU are too comfortable.

You do realize that practice time has been cut back almost 60% since 2001 right? I think we'll see some gains now that they are allowing coaches to coach the 7 on 7s in the summer.

[Tear Down This Wall]

You do realize that practice time has been cut back almost 60% since 2001 right? I think we'll see some gains now that they are allowing coaches to coach the 7 on 7s in the summer.

Yes, that I understand. But, if whatever time I have to coach I'm coaching the Charles Walkers and Matt Romars of the world instead of the Tommie Harrises or Gerald McCoys, where does that leave me?

[Eielson]

Yes, that I understand. But, if whatever time I have to coach I'm coaching the Charles Walkers and Matt Romars of the world instead of the Tommie Harrises or Gerald McCoys, where does that leave me?

From all indications I've heard, Charles Walker is one of our top NFL prospects. He's not a McCoy or Harris, but do you really expect us to have all-pro DTs every year?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Uhmm..Jordan Phillips is considered a top NFL DL as a Rs Sophmore.. He was an Under Armour All American and a top(in some pubs the top) DT in his class.

Romar had offers from Missouri and Baylor(as well as a bunch more) and if you hadn't noticed it..Both of those schools are putting out top Dlinemen.

What tells you that they can't play? It's based on the schools recruiting a player?

[Eielson]

Uhmm..Jordan Phillips is considered a top NFL DL as a Rs Sophmore.. He was an Under Armour All American and a top(in some pubs the top) DT in his class.

Romar had offers from Missouri and Baylor(as well as a bunch more) and if you hadn't noticed it..Both of those schools are putting out top Dlinemen.

What tells you that they can't play? It's based on the schools recruiting a player?

Just to catch you up to speed...

TDTW is obsessed with us needing to fire Montgomery and send BJW back the D-line. He'll use anything to support that claim, even if it's completely opposite of reality.

Do you think we should have any fear of Phillips or Tapper going pro after the season?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Yes on Tapper and Phillips..Some are suggesting that Phillips return for another year, but he is a 2nd round pick/possible late 1st snag "as-is".

[Eielson]

That would suck. We've got a lot riding on early-entries this year. Not exciting news for a 4 or 5 loss team.

[Sooner in Tampa]

Puke. Is everyone asleep? TCU has had one winning season in three years in the Big 12...and, we want to copy them?

We've already switched to a defense that admits we can't recruit enough DTs to make a 4-3 work. How many more times must we raise the white flag to opposing OCs?

Have you been asleep? TCU and Patterson are VERY respected for their D...the problem has always been their O, or lack thereof.

As far as our D...I am a 4-3 guy and agree with going back to a variation as mentioned already...4-2-5

[Tear Down This Wall]

From all indications I've heard, Charles Walker is one of our top NFL prospects. He's not a McCoy or Harris, but do you really expect us to have all-pro DTs every year?

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/colleges/post/_/id/4688314/future-appears-bright-for-dt-walker
"The Sooners battled New Mexico, Houston, New Mexico State and North Texas for his signature."

https://rivals.yahoo.com/oklahoma/football/recruiting/player-Charles-Walker-132243

Two years in, seven games, five tackles...a half sack against mighty Louisiana Tech, which makes sense because it was G5 schools that were after him when he was being recruited. He'd be a great G5 player. Would probably be starting at any school listed that offered him.

He's another Torrea Peterson.

He's not big school material. Neither is Romar. We have one guy - Jordan Phillips - who is big school material at DT.

[OklaPony]

[QUOTE=cvsooner;4909320]

Zack Sanchez is a very good corner (when healthy)....

I agree, ever since his shoulder got healed up I thought he had a great season.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Have you been asleep? TCU and Patterson are VERY respected for their D...the problem has always been their O, or lack thereof.

As far as our D...I am a 4-3 guy and agree with going back to a variation as mentioned already...4-2-5

TCU is ranked behind us in rush defense. And, they are 84th in pass defense. They aren't great. People move on them.

What they do is get sacks and turnovers when they need them - this season, anyway. We used to do same back when our coaches we more aggressive.

TCU isn't great, and neither is Baylor. The Big 12 is greatly watered down, and that's why both only have one loss. TCU might win their bowl game because their coach will gamble defensively and understands defense. Baylor will likely get blown out again.

We play defense in a losing, small school scheme because we can't get enough quality DTs or DEs anymore. And, we don't have a coach who would know what to do with them anyway.

[8timechamps]

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/colleges/post/_/id/4688314/future-appears-bright-for-dt-walker
"The Sooners battled New Mexico, Houston, New Mexico State and North Texas for his signature."

https://rivals.yahoo.com/oklahoma/football/recruiting/player-Charles-Walker-132243

Two years in, seven games, five tackles...a half sack against mighty Louisiana Tech, which makes sense because it was G5 schools that were after him when he was being recruited. He'd be a great G5 player. Would probably be starting at any school listed that offered him.

He's another Torrea Peterson.

He's not big school material. Neither is Romar. We have one guy - Jordan Phillips - who is big school material at DT.

A couple of things:

First, you are wrapped up in ratings and the "who's who" of the offer sheet. I realize that you can tell a lot about a kid that has mega offers, or is rated a 5 star (even though some of them bust), but there have been so many 3 star kids, without major offers, that have ended up being incredible players. Rankings and offers only tell a partial story.

Charles Walker is very talented, but young. The stats you listed are meaningless...he was injured for a large part of this season, and only a true freshman last year (it's pretty common for a true freshman to see a lot of sideline time). The guy is talented, and I think you'll see that soon.

I also think you're trying to compare McCoy and Harris to the current group of players. That's almost apples to oranges. You're talking about guys that played in a completely different system, and were asked to do completely different things. For what is required in the 3-4, our line did an excellent job this year. We were very stout against the run, and again, asking 3 linemen to pressure a QB (when we're dropping 8 into coverage) is crazy, and isn't going to yield many stats. The fact that those guys even had sacks tells me all I need to know.

There are some area's we are thin/weak, defensive line is most definitely not one of them.

If the only knock on Montgomery is that he has brought in a few guys that didn't get big time offers, that's not much of a negative. The guy is a great recruiter and an even better position coach.

As for Bedenbaugh, he's doing more for the O-line (in both coaching and recruiting) that anyone that's been in that position in years. If you're looking for coaches to criticize, there's other guys on the staff that have it coming. Those two are not them.

[Eielson]

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/colleges/post/_/id/4688314/future-appears-bright-for-dt-walker
"The Sooners battled New Mexico, Houston, New Mexico State and North Texas for his signature."

https://rivals.yahoo.com/oklahoma/football/recruiting/player-Charles-Walker-132243

Two years in, seven games, five tackles...a half sack against mighty Louisiana Tech, which makes sense because it was G5 schools that were after him when he was being recruited. He'd be a great G5 player. Would probably be starting at any school listed that offered him.

He's another Torrea Peterson.

He's not big school material. Neither is Romar. We have one guy - Jordan Phillips - who is big school material at DT.

Did you even read that article you posted? If anything, it supports what I was saying. I'll pull out a few quote since you clearly didn't read it.


Jordan Phillips appears in line for a healthy return after his redshirt sophomore season was cut short. Jordan Wade was pleasantly productive in the middle in Phillips’ absence, and Chuka Ndulue can slide inside at a moment’s notice.

Yet Charles Walker might be the most physically gifted of the bunch.


The redshirt freshman had Sooners fans buzzing when he posted his 4.7 time in the 40-yard dash on social media during winter workouts. It was an early sign of the sheer physical talent of the 6-foot-2, 289-pound Walker. This spring, he has continued to impress.


“Anyone that big and strong and fast, I think he will be a dynamic player,” Mike Stoops said.

It's true that he didn't have any tackles in the year he redshirted. That's seems to be the average.

He didn't do a lot this year, either, but like 8x said, he's been hurt most of the year. Additionally, as an NFL scout just told you, he's playing behind two older guys that are 1st-2nd round draft picks. The other guy isn't as highly rated, but is a 5th year senior, and will probably make it to the NFL.

So like I said, Charles Walker is one of the top NFL prospects we have. I know of some who have gone as far as to claim he is the top one. From the looks of it, his stiffest competition for top prospect is his fellow teammates on the D-line.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Romar doesn't look too bad as a 3-4 NT, he clogs the middle well which is what you want there. The guy that I think is a pretty good 3-4 DE but trapped behind Tapper/Ndulae is Matt Dimon. I just feel like we are in this weird spot on the DL where we have talented 4-3 guys playing a 3-4 with talented 3-4 guys behind them. That is part of the reason I'm in the "jury is still out" camp.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Yes, I read what it said Walker "might" be. He "might" also climb Mt. Everest in sandals. Until then, he'll give us five tackles a season...and, half a sack against whatever low level G5 out of conference schools we play. He's a G5 player on a P5 roster.

[8timechamps]

Yes, I read what it said Walker "might" be. He "might" also climb Mt. Everest in sandals. Until then, he'll give us five tackles a season...and, half a sack against whatever low level G5 out of conference schools we play. He's a G5 player on a P5 roster.

I am not following your logic on this.

Charles Walker is a redshirt freshman that plays behind a senior (Ndulue). He was injured for 1/4 of the season. Why are you dwelling on his stats? Shouldn't you wait until he's actually a starter, and plays a full year before making up your mind about his ability?

You're pointing out the stats of a back up, that's not really something that normally indicates a player's ability or lack of.

[8timechamps]

Romar doesn't look too bad as a 3-4 NT, he clogs the middle well which is what you want there. The guy that I think is a pretty good 3-4 DE but trapped behind Tapper/Ndulae is Matt Dimon. I just feel like we are in this weird spot on the DL where we have talented 4-3 guys playing a 3-4 with talented 3-4 guys behind them. That is part of the reason I'm in the "jury is still out" camp.

Couldn't agree with you more.

You feel that way because that's exactly what is happening. The starting D-line is made up of guys recruited to and for the 4-3. The guys behind them were specifically brought in for the 3-4.

If you remember, prior to the 2013 season, the belief was that the D-line was going to be horrible. They ended up being much better than expected, but it's still the same guys. We are definitely in a transition period, between two defenses. We played a bunch of guys that were recruited for two different schemes this year. If you look at the DB's Mike Stoops has targeted since his arrival, they are different than guys like Hayes and Wilson. Not so much at the LB spot, since Evans and Alexander were brought in by Mike and Striker played in a 3-4 in high school.

I think that's been part of the problem with this year's defense (especially the secondary). Sadly, Mike couldn't figure out a way to make it work.

[Eielson]

Yes, I read what it said Walker "might" be. He "might" also climb Mt. Everest in sandals. Until then, he'll give us five tackles a season...and, half a sack against whatever low level G5 out of conference schools we play. He's a G5 player on a P5 roster.

Yeah, no tackles in his redshirt season. Total bust.

[Sooner in Tampa]

Yes, I read what it said Walker "might" be. He "might" also climb Mt. Everest in sandals. Until then, he'll give us five tackles a season...and, half a sack against whatever low level G5 out of conference schools we play. He's a G5 player on a P5 roster.
Yup...everyone sees talent except you...whatever will OU do?

They should hire you TODAY!!