Not division 1 quarterbacks

[ouhomer123]

With a program as big as OU why is it so hard to get a good division 1 quarterback? Not one of the quarterbacks we have should be starting in this program, they are obviously average at best. Who is scouting these guys?...well they need to be fired!

Our team reminds me of my old electric football game. They just buzz around in circles while everyone runs by them OR it is the same old offense...example: AD up the middle, ok now lets run AD up the middle...hmm 3rd down..lets run AD up the middle....same crap as when AD was here.

[UteSooner]

These kids have talent. It's the schemes and development that suck.

[8timechamps]

Great QBs are not easy to come by. We were spoiled for a long time. For the first time in Stoops tenure, we don't have a guy that can challenge defenses on a consistent basis.

Knight can be effective, but not on the sideline injured. After that we have a young, undeveloped talent. How we got into this situation is the real question.

Thomas may end up being an all-American, but right now he's a freshman QB that struggles making a medium to long range pass.

There's a lot that needs to be addressed this off-season.

[Piware]

IMHO, not having QB "material" is not the issue. I don't personally think Trevor will ever be back. Like David Ash from Texas, I would not want to risk crippling a kid for life - just not worth it. Instead of worrying about QBs, which we are pretty well stocked with, I would like to see some defensive players that are Rocky Calmus, Torrance Marshall, Teddy Lehman clones. I don't think we have those waiting in the wings.

[BoulderSooner79]

Knight is definitely D1 talent, but I don't think he will ever be better than average. (I'll be silly here and wait for the medical decision before I claim he's done for good). College football competition has risen to a level that it's highly unlikely for a team to win a championship with an average QB. Heck, it's unlikely to even win the big12 with an average QB even with a great defense and running game. OU must be a place that QBs want to go and a great place for a QB to develop in order for us to be in the national hunt in Nov.

[Therealsouthsider]

....nail meet hammer

....it's the players....we don't have them

....for a long time I've griped about no-balls, no swagger, conservative play, lack of creativity....well, basically, we don't have the personnel that fosters these things and that all falls on a lax, comfortable, sedentary head coach who has forgotten what it's like to bring the fire and the wood on the way up the ladder....we have a CEO that practices nepotism and throws us a gratuitous fake punt once or twice a season to pretend that he is still engaged in the game....disgusting


ss

[achiro]

These guys were all very good in HS(including Bell). They all have seemed to forget how to throw an accurate ball between HS graduation and seeing the field in college. Not sure what that is but I can't imagine that it's just a sudden loss of all the talent that they had before.

[Eielson]

Rudolph wasn't rated as good as Hansen, so there's that.

Of course, Thomas was rated about the same in his class as Hansen, so there's also that.

But then again, Landry sucked as a rsFR as well, so you also have that.

In the end, I think we hit bad spell right after Landry. Allen wasn't very good, Archie went MLB, Bell never lived up to expectations, and Thompson didn't have his head on straight. I'd like to think that we turned things around at least with Hansen (if not Knight or Thomas). Who knows, though. I think Heupel has gotten better from a playcalling standpoint, but I think we might need a new guy developing our QBs. We've got D1 quarterbacks right now, though.

[BoulderSooner79]

There is the rating services and then there is the truth of what a hard working coaching staff sees combined with the ability to hone that talent. I'm sure all our QBs will have stars by their names. But just watching how prepared Rudolph was vs. how prepared Thomas was yesterday revealed a significant gap. And Thomas has a year's head start in our program.

[Eielson]

Cody Thomas had offers from Alabama, Auburn, Florida, LSU, MSU, Notre Dame, OSU, USC, and many others. That's about as good as it gets, so it's clearly not just a recruiting service thing. I'm not giving up on him based off of a couple of games he wasn't expecting to play in, and with an awful group of receivers to boot. I'm also not going to proclaim Rudolph a legend based off a couple of decent games.

[BoulderSooner79]

Cody Thomas had offers from Alabama, Auburn, Florida, LSU, MSU, Notre Dame, OSU, USC, and many others. That's about as good as it gets, so it's clearly not just a recruiting service thing. I'm not giving up on him based off of a couple of games he wasn't expecting to play in, and with an awful group of receivers to boot. I'm also not going to proclaim Rudolph a legend based off a couple of decent games.

I'm not giving up on Thomas either and I'm not surprised by his offers. But he clearly wasn't ready to play and he should be. He has been the official backup since the first game. Rudolph was tagged to be a redshirt until 2 games ago so he's probably been running scout team. It could be Cody will be a bust and all those other teams and the recruiting services were wrong. It happens frequently. Or it could be our QB coach is not teaching effectively or putting in the required effort. I'm also not saying Rudolph will be all conference - I'm just stating he was well prepared to step in and play, both against Baylor and OU.

[ouhomer123]

Thomas was showing signs though of the landry chatter. When the pocket started closing them feet started chattering and his legs just collapsed below him instead of taking off and running and take a sack. All good QB`S know when to bail not just fall to the ground and loose yardage.

[Eielson]

I'm not giving up on Thomas either and I'm not surprised by his offers. But he clearly wasn't ready to play and he should be. He has been the official backup since the first game. Rudolph was tagged to be a redshirt until 2 games ago so he's probably been running scout team. It could be Cody will be a bust and all those other teams and the recruiting services were wrong. It happens frequently. Or it could be our QB coach is not teaching effectively or putting in the required effort. I'm also not saying Rudolph will be all conference - I'm just stating he was well prepared to step in and play, both against Baylor and OU.

May main point in mentioning recruiting rankings/offers was that these guys are talented enough to do big things. They just have to be developed. They're D1 quarterbacks.

[EatLeadCommie]

These kids have talent. It's the schemes and development that suck.

It's this. Plus we don't have any semblance of an offensive identity, so we don't know whether we want kids who can run to run, or if we should make throwers out of them.

That and our WR corps is awful.

[FaninAma]

Cody Thomas had offers from Alabama, Auburn, Florida, LSU, MSU, Notre Dame, OSU, USC, and many others. That's about as good as it gets, so it's clearly not just a recruiting service thing. I'm not giving up on him based off of a couple of games he wasn't expecting to play in, and with an awful group of receivers to boot. I'm also not going to proclaim Rudolph a legend based off a couple of decent games.
Yes, our receivers sucked after Shepard went down. In fact it is startling at how little talent OU has at that position.

[Eielson]

That and our WR corps is awful.

True. But we'll be LOADED next year.

[Therealsouthsider]

....the common denominator in this and many other threads is preparation....preparation requires commitment

....this game and season was decided before the Saturday results, we have just witnessed the results of our level of commitment....no more hiding behind the excuse of poor execution

....Jimbo Elrod is correct, this staff needs change and a rededication to the program


ss

[BoulderSooner79]

It's this. Plus we don't have any semblance of an offensive identity, so we don't know whether we want kids who can run to run, or if we should make throwers out of them.

That and our WR corps is awful.

Regardless of identity, OU QBs are expected to be able to drop back, go through a progression and make an accurate throw on some large percentage of throwing downs. CT looked ill prepared to do that. Heck, KT looked ill prepared at times too. We should never have a starting QB at OU who is not a thrower.

[Eielson]

Yes, our receivers sucked after Shepard went down. In fact it is startling at how little talent OU has at that position.

It's the consequence of Gardner's grades, Metoyer's perversion, and Woods' whatever happened. Norvell has been great about keeping that position loaded, though, so this was just a fluke.

Next year we could have Shepard and DGB. I'm not expecting both, but we'll have at least one I would bet.

Last year's recruiting class had about 9 studs (Perine, Quick, and Parker were the three we got to see this year), and no positions were better represented than RB (Mixon and Perine) and WR (Quick, Todd, and Andrews).

We'll also have the JUCO, and guys like Neal are still available. I don't expect Neal to be a great one, but we'll be in pretty good shape if he's our 4th option.

[8timechamps]

Yes, our receivers sucked after Shepard went down. In fact it is startling at how little talent OU has at that position.

We don't necessarily lack talent at the position, it's just very young and inexperienced. We've been fortunate to have landed some guys in the past that could play as freshmen. We've also benefited from transfers/JUCO. This year, we had one guy that had extensive experience, and he got injured.

I believe Quick will be a very good receiver, and I think we have some other guys that will end up being good too. The problem this year is that nobody stepped up after Shep went down. Then again, we pretty much went run heavy after Shep got hurt.

[5noubus]

I think it's the receivers that aren't good. We know from Bradford good receivers make QBs look better.
Once Shepard was out it was all down hill.
I don't think the receivers get open and the QBs don't trust them .

[achiro]

I think it's the receivers that aren't good. We know from Bradford good receivers make QBs look better.
Once Shepard was out it was all down hill.
I don't think the receivers get open and the QBs don't trust them .

I disagree with mot of your post. Bradford had good receivers but he was pinpoint accurate and threw a catchable ball. The receivers do need to get better at separation but they can't catch a ball that's 30 feet over their head or in the dirt 5 yards in front of them. So many catches they had to make required stopping their route, turning around to catch the ball behind them, or reach as far out as they could to get to it. You may have the separation but if you have to stop to catch the ball, the separation is gone. Accuracy is the problem and that's what I just can't figure out. They aren't getting basic passes(quick slant) to the receivers that most high school QB's can make.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I think it's the receivers that aren't good. We know from Bradford good receivers make QBs look better.
Once Shepard was out it was all down hill.
I don't think the receivers get open and the QBs don't trust them .

Um, what? Bradford made both Iglesias and Malcolm a pile of money for 2 year NFL careers.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

For all the carping about recruiting going down, QB seems to be the one position where we've had mostly 4/5 * guys. But I've seen very little QB development since Sam left. Landry got better from his Fr to So year, but never got better after that and probably regressed. Bell was a highly recruited guy and never developed. Trevor outside of the one hit wonder is only marginally better than he was his first start. And while other programs can lose a starter and trot out a RS Fr QB and perform respectably, our RS Fr looks like he started playing the game a month ago. I've got to believe Cody was better in HS than he is now, otherwise why would he have gotten all those offers.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

These kids have talent. It's the schemes and development that suck.

You can take a hard line stance if you want, but things are never this simple.

Knight has talent and he has developed fairly well...at the throws he is good at. He just happens to be good at throws that have a minor impact on the college game. You just can't base an offense on the running game and sideline fades. In college football you have to be able to hit the slant for easy yards. Guess which throw Knight is horrid at?

Thomas I'd argue is lacking on talent - he tries to finesse every throw and has no accuracy. The ball is in the air for a long time and seems to go to the spot where the defender has just as much chance at is as the receiver. His saving grace is that he has really good accuracy on the seam route. The good news is that you CAN base an offense off of the running game and the seam route IF you have a great TE.

As I said earlier in the season, we are a team of mismatched parts under 2 very stubborn coordinators. Now, on this board, people make decisions in seconds without having to justify or sell their opinions. However, in every group situation, the following happens:

1. Evaluate the last game and come up with strengths weaknesses and their overall potential impact in future games
2. Determine whether the flaws are intrinsic or they can be fixed with more practice time on the flaw
3. Evaluate if you change the system or keep it
4. Determine how much practice time to change the system
5. Determine whether the change will increase/decrease chances of victory in the near term

In other words, they are working on aggregated lagging indicators, not leading ones. And just like on this board, people may not agree or build up their evidence until several games down the road. For example, several of us said that Perine might be the best running back we have early in the season. Most people thought we were nuts and said Ford was. Right now, there are still people who think Ford is better. The same thing is occurring in the coaches offices - these guys know how to win, they've done it before, they will do it again.

[Pride1Mom]

Do I need to say it again? OUr offense is NOT the problem. You should be able to win every game when you score over 30 points. It is the DEFENSE that is the problem. We won the National Title 13-2.

[achiro]

Do I need to say it again? OUr offense is NOT the problem. You should be able to win every game when you score over 30 points. It is the DEFENSE that is the problem. We won the National Title 13-2.
If it was 1993 I might agree with you. College offenses are going to score. That said, I am not going to defend this particular defense...at all.

[ddub0224]

Ok, so thinking this through out loud.....
QB development has been a problem if we're recruiting 4&5* guys.....who is our QB coach?
Game planning/calling has been overly predictable making it harder on the young QBs.....who calls the plays?

[8timechamps]

Do I need to say it again? OUr offense is NOT the problem. You should be able to win every game when you score over 30 points. It is the DEFENSE that is the problem. We won the National Title 13-2.

I can't agree with your stance 100%, because we play in a conference where most teams can score 30 points in a half. However, I don't see the offense being a major issue on this team (when TK and Shep are healthy). The defense is what killed us in every one of our losses.

[Eielson]

Um, what? Bradford made both Iglesias and Malcolm a pile of money for 2 year NFL careers.

That's what I was wondering. He had a great O-line, great RB, and great TE. His WR's were average, though.

[ddub0224]

I can't agree with your stance 100%, because we play in a conference where most teams can score 30 points in a half. However, I don't see the offense being a major issue on this team (when TK and Shep are healthy). The defense is what killed us in every one of our losses.

We lost 3 of our 4 games by 4, 3, and 1 point and missed more field goals than I can remember in a while. Defenses get tired when the offense can't put together drives. It was one thing when we used to go down and score quickly...key word being "score"...but now the offense just goes on and off the field quickly. (well, that's assuming we don't have any more timeouts to waste to change the play to something more predicable)

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Ok, so thinking this through out loud.....
QB development has been a problem if we're recruiting 4&5* guys.....who is our QB coach?
Game planning/calling has been overly predictable making it harder on the young QBs.....who calls the plays?

So let me take a step back in history here.

Everyone on this board agreed that BV needed to either be replaced for various reasons - the primary being "hatred of the zone D" and the minority being "because our linebacker recruiting sucks". 3 years later, we now can look at the results.

Defense in general - MS has been just as inconsistent as BV was - 2 bad seasons, 1 good one. Linebacker play has been marginally better. I don't look at every team and wish that we had their linebackers, just about 1/2 the teams. Every time I watch our D, it comes back to the same core problem -> our linebackers just aren't good enough to allow us to gamble anywhere else.

So we have the same problem happening on O. The question is whether we can bring in anyone that can EVALUATE WRs and QBs better than what we have? Because history says it isn't that simple.

[ddub0224]

So let me take a step back in history here.

Everyone on this board agreed that BV needed to either be replaced for various reasons - the primary being "hatred of the zone D" and the minority being "because our linebacker recruiting sucks". 3 years later, we now can look at the results.

Defense in general - MS has been just as inconsistent as BV was - 2 bad seasons, 1 good one. Linebacker play has been marginally better. I don't look at every team and wish that we had their linebackers, just about 1/2 the teams. Every time I watch our D, it comes back to the same core problem -> our linebackers just aren't good enough to allow us to gamble anywhere else.

So we have the same problem happening on O. The question is whether we can bring in anyone that can EVALUATE WRs and QBs better than what we have? Because history says it isn't that simple.

I think our bigger problem was not having a secondary that we could gamble more with, not the LBs. That's why we always gave the receivers HUGE cushions. LB play improved and if we had Shannon it would have been even better.

We need a guy that can DEVELOP QBs better not EVALUATE them better.

But, you are correct in that it is not that easy. I still remember the 90s. Ugh, my stomach just turned.

[#8soon]

I disagree with mot of your post. Bradford had good receivers but he was pinpoint accurate and threw a catchable ball. The receivers do need to get better at separation but they can't catch a ball that's 30 feet over their head or in the dirt 5 yards in front of them. So many catches they had to make required stopping their route, turning around to catch the ball behind them, or reach as far out as they could to get to it. You may have the separation but if you have to stop to catch the ball, the separation is gone. Accuracy is the problem and that's what I just can't figure out. They aren't getting basic passes(quick slant) to the receivers that most high school QB's can make.

I watched Bradfords frosh highlites and there are plenty of receivers having to make adj to the ball. Let's examine Codys 3 starts

Tx Tech- After his 3 picks in first half he leads OU to the biggest comeback for a first start frosh since 1961. He also had the #1 QB rating in the country for his second half of play.

Kansas- Playing in a downpour he... 1. doesn't turn the ball over 2. forces Kansas to respect his read option play which in turns helps Perine set the new NCAA rushing record

OK State- Did you see the graphic Fox put up on the broadcast? Cody is leading FBS qb's in yards per rush attempt. He also started the game with 8 straight completions. Do you know when the last time that happened? Sept 15, 2007- Sam Bradford ( Frosh) vs Utah State

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with this kids next start!

[KantoSooner]

#8 HOW DARE YOU INJECT FACTS!

Everybody was all off in a fireeverybodynokillallthecoachesandplayersbulldoze thestadiumsalttheearththenhangourselves pity party. And you had to come along and talk sense.

[BoulderSooner79]

#8 HOW DARE YOU INJECT FACTS!

Everybody was all off in a fireeverybodynokillallthecoachesandplayersbulldoze thestadiumsalttheearththenhangourselves pity party. And you had to come along and talk sense.

Umm, facts? I assume #8 works at a cherry farm because he sure did pick a bunch of them.

But I like his attitude.

[#8soon]

#8 HOW DARE YOU INJECT FACTS!

Everybody was all off in a fireeverybodynokillallthecoachesandplayersbulldoze thestadiumsalttheearththenhangourselves pity party. And you had to come along and talk sense.

Thatwastoughtoreadbutiwaslaughinglikehellasiwasrea dingit!

[#8soon]

Umm, facts? I assume #8 works at a cherry farm because he sure did pick a bunch of them.

But I like his attitude.

I did start my rant mentioning the 3 picks? Hey, Cody could be a big flop but he lead Texas 5A in all PASSING categories his jr & sr year and that aint easy to do. Couple that with all the offers from all the big time schools AND the fact the NEW YORK YANKEES drafted him? I'd say he at least has some potential, wouldn't you?

[beached_sooner]

I did start my rant mentioning the 3 picks? Hey, Cody could be a big flop but he lead Texas 5A in all PASSING categories his jr & sr year and that aint easy to do. Couple that with all the offers from all the big time schools AND the fact the NEW YORK YANKEES drafted him? I'd say he at least has some potential, wouldn't you?

I'd hope he has potential by the fact that he got a Division I scholly from OU. However, I wasn't too convinced of it during his three game stint at starting at the end of the year.

Sure, he came back and won the Tech game, but that was mostly due to his running, not down the field passing. Oh, and the Kansas win, wasn't there some stat about the most number of rushing yards in a single game by a running back set during that game?? Not sure, cuz my brain is getting old and crusty. As far as the most recent melt-down in Norman, yeah sure he went 8 for 8 at the beginning of the game, but how many of those were actual passes down the field longer than 5 yards? As I recall, a lot of them were sideline tosses, and short passes to Ford or Perine allowing them to get YAC after the reception.

Ask yourself why the coaches never cut Thomas loose in Norman, and let him throw 20 or 30 yards downfield when his counterpart across the field, with less experience, was doing so? Thomas has been in the system for almost two full years now, he started two games before the meltdown. He had a bye week to get ready. I know the coaches had a lot of faith in Perine carrying the team on his back for a second straight week, but to keep Thomas in check all game, especially after Perine went down, makes me wonder if the coaches knew something the rest of us aren't aware of. Something like ... Cody is just not ready for prime time yet. And if that's the case, I find that unacceptable.

As the #2 guy in the line-up this year, he has to have been getting some reps every week with the starting offense. He's started two games now, so he should have been over any case of yips by now. He had two weeks to prepare for this game, and he still can't throw pass down field longer than ten yards ! We can stare at this through rose-colored glasses, pump the sunshine, and drink the Kool-Aid all we want, but IMHO, based on what Thomas has shown so far, I've got some strong reservations he'll ever be better than even Nate Hybl.

If I recall correctly, which is a big if, I don't recall Bradford having any reins on him by his third start.

[BoulderSooner79]

I did start my rant mentioning the 3 picks? Hey, Cody could be a big flop but he lead Texas 5A in all PASSING categories his jr & sr year and that aint easy to do. Couple that with all the offers from all the big time schools AND the fact the NEW YORK YANKEES drafted him? I'd say he at least has some potential, wouldn't you?

I'm happy that Cody had a great HS multi-sport career and was rewarded with lots of offers along with a baseball draft selection. I'm not saying he doesn't have potential either. What I will say is that I watched all 3 games he played and he showed almost nothing as far a potential in the passing game. And I'm the one that wanted us to use the last 3 games more for looking at young players than worrying about winning the games. So I'll do a little (rotten) cherry picking of stats. Yes, he did start 8 for 8, but those were very short dink and dunk type passes that were taking advantage of a strong run game to mix it up. Only 1 of those passes was downfield and that was to a wide open Blake Bell. Any QB should have been able to hit that, but I'll give Cody full credit as it was right on target and very catchable. That was by far his best pass of the day. The TD pass he recorded was between 1-2 yards too far away from the goal line and Rip saved the day by going and getting it and then muscling through 2 tacklers for the score.

But fine, 8 for 8 is still great. After that start and especially in the 4th qtr and OT when we *needed* a pass play after Perine went down, he went 2 for 9. He showed no pocket presence or ability to go through a progression. Some of those throws were way off target. Smallwood had very good separation on that comeback route on his very last throw and he threw it way out of bounds. That forced us to go for a 44 yard FG from our now very shaky kicker. Maybe Cody will be a great QB for us, but he is clearly not ready now.

[UteSooner]

You can take a hard line stance if you want, but things are never this simple.

Of course it's never simple, and I'll admit that my football IQ comes soley from television and video games. I'll wager you are much more knowledgeable. But I refuse to accept that high-recruited QBs and WRs need years in a system to have a prayer at completing a pass. Outside of run blocking our offense seems confused. Confusion is the norm. So, yes, I blame the schemes and development. This whole experiement/change in offensive direction over the last 2 years has failed because Josh Heupel doesn't know what he's doing. If Stoops wanted a different offense he should have hired someone with that specific expertise (and no, I don't want to go back to what we had before). People point to the scoreboard and say we're scoring sufficiently, but everyone knows we have MAJOR issues on offense. Thank Bedenbaugh and Gundy for the points. Not Heupel. Defensive problems are for a different thread.

Think about what Bedenbaugh has done for our run blocking. Remember when Idaho State had a goal-line stand against us? We were awful. I have to believe there's an OC out there that can do for our entire offense what Bedenbaugh has done for our O-line.

[BoulderSooner79]

I agree with UteSooner that if we wanted to run a completely different offense, then we should hire an OC that has successfully run that offense. Don't just send JH to read-option 101 and hope he learns on the fly. Personally, I don't want a read-option/QB run oriented offense. I want stud RBs who can run the ball and a big armed QB that can make all the throws. If the QB has wheels and can make himself hard to sack, that's a big bonus. But if we must go with an option run game, hire an expert.

[8timechamps]

We lost 3 of our 4 games by 4, 3, and 1 point and missed more field goals than I can remember in a while. Defenses get tired when the offense can't put together drives. It was one thing when we used to go down and score quickly...key word being "score"...but now the offense just goes on and off the field quickly. (well, that's assuming we don't have any more timeouts to waste to change the play to something more predicable)

I don't put the TCU or KSU loss on the offense. The Baylor and maybe the OSU loss can be put on the entire team. And the OSU game came down to lapses in the special teams and on the defense.

We have had some 3 and outs, but it's not been a major issue in most games. As much as we rotate guys in on defense (more than just about any year I can remember), there were very few games where the defense was too tired to finish. We run less plays than we have in past years, and the defenses of those years had better production.

[#8soon]

I'd hope he has potential by the fact that he got a Division I scholly from OU. However, I wasn't too convinced of it during his three game stint at starting at the end of the year.

Sure, he came back and won the Tech game, but that was mostly due to his running, not down the field passing. Oh, and the Kansas win, wasn't there some stat about the most number of rushing yards in a single game by a running back set during that game?? Not sure, cuz my brain is getting old and crusty. As far as the most recent melt-down in Norman, yeah sure he went 8 for 8 at the beginning of the game, but how many of those were actual passes down the field longer than 5 yards? As I recall, a lot of them were sideline tosses, and short passes to Ford or Perine allowing them to get YAC after the reception.

Ask yourself why the coaches never cut Thomas loose in Norman, and let him throw 20 or 30 yards downfield when his counterpart across the field, with less experience, was doing so? Thomas has been in the system for almost two full years now, he started two games before the meltdown. He had a bye week to get ready. I know the coaches had a lot of faith in Perine carrying the team on his back for a second straight week, but to keep Thomas in check all game, especially after Perine went down, makes me wonder if the coaches knew something the rest of us aren't aware of. Something like ... Cody is just not ready for prime time yet. And if that's the case, I find that unacceptable.

As the #2 guy in the line-up this year, he has to have been getting some reps every week with the starting offense. He's started two games now, so he should have been over any case of yips by now. He had two weeks to prepare for this game, and he still can't throw pass down field longer than ten yards ! We can stare at this through rose-colored glasses, pump the sunshine, and drink the Kool-Aid all we want, but IMHO, based on what Thomas has shown so far, I've got some strong reservations he'll ever be better than even Nate Hybl.

If I recall correctly, which is a big if, I don't recall Bradford having any reins on him by his third start.


You need to listen to Perine's post game & post week after Tech where he talks about Cody. You don't think that played somewhat into the rushing record? Cody runs the read/option/mesh as well as anyone in college fb

The only receiver the coaches would cut a qb loose with is Shep. When he went down so did our WR production. Shep hasn't played in 5 games and he's still leading receiver by almost double the next guy. What does that tell you?

Sam was running a completely different offense than the one we ran in 2014 apples/oranges

[#8soon]

I'm happy that Cody had a great HS multi-sport career and was rewarded with lots of offers along with a baseball draft selection. I'm not saying he doesn't have potential either. What I will say is that I watched all 3 games he played and he showed almost nothing as far a potential in the passing game. And I'm the one that wanted us to use the last 3 games more for looking at young players than worrying about winning the games. So I'll do a little (rotten) cherry picking of stats. Yes, he did start 8 for 8, but those were very short dink and dunk type passes that were taking advantage of a strong run game to mix it up. Only 1 of those passes was downfield and that was to a wide open Blake Bell. Any QB should have been able to hit that, but I'll give Cody full credit as it was right on target and very catchable. That was by far his best pass of the day. The TD pass he recorded was between 1-2 yards too far away from the goal line and Rip saved the day by going and getting it and then muscling through 2 tacklers for the score.

But fine, 8 for 8 is still great. After that start and especially in the 4th qtr and OT when we *needed* a pass play after Perine went down, he went 2 for 9. He showed no pocket presence or ability to go through a progression. Some of those throws were way off target. Smallwood had very good separation on that comeback route on his very last throw and he threw it way out of bounds. That forced us to go for a 44 yard FG from our now very shaky kicker. Maybe Cody will be a great QB for us, but he is clearly not ready now.

agree with you on the throw to Jordan. He had to hit that one and threw it too far out. Smallwood made a hell of an effort to catch it though!

[aero]

On the offense side of things I think we have a combination of things working against us. Inexperienced qb, weak receiving corp, and average at best coordinator. Do we even have a tight end on the roster? We've been fortunate at those positions for a long time but now they all seem weak. I still think the biggest issue on defense is the line. Sometimes those guys seem invisible. I'd be curious how many sacks and pressures the d line has this year. And besides LaTech and Tulsa. Its' easy to see breakdowns in the secondary and linebackers but if they are under constant pressure from the offense that's going to happen. Everything starts up front. But for those saying that scoring 30 should be enough to win look at the games this past weekend and see how many 30 points would have won the game. Bama, Oregon, TCU, FSU, Ohio St, Baylor all scored over 30. And the offense does impact the defense when they have 3 and outs and put the d back on the field. Offenses are going to attack and pressure defenses and the more the d is exposed to it the more chance they are going to give up a big play. The last 3 drives against OkSt 3 and outs. Keep putting the d back out there and keep punting and the inevitable will happen.

[Breadburner]

Turnovers cost us 2 big games.....

[achiro]

I watched Bradfords frosh highlites and there are plenty of receivers having to make adj to the ball. Let's examine Codys 3 starts

Tx Tech- After his 3 picks in first half he leads OU to the biggest comeback for a first start frosh since 1961. He also had the #1 QB rating in the country for his second half of play.

Kansas- Playing in a downpour he... 1. doesn't turn the ball over 2. forces Kansas to respect his read option play which in turns helps Perine set the new NCAA rushing record

OK State- Did you see the graphic Fox put up on the broadcast? Cody is leading FBS qb's in yards per rush attempt. He also started the game with 8 straight completions. Do you know when the last time that happened? Sept 15, 2007- Sam Bradford ( Frosh) vs Utah State

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with this kids next start!


I did start my rant mentioning the 3 picks? Hey, Cody could be a big flop but he lead Texas 5A in all PASSING categories his jr & sr year and that aint easy to do. Couple that with all the offers from all the big time schools AND the fact the NEW YORK YANKEES drafted him? I'd say he at least has some potential, wouldn't you?

#8, I don't think we are far apart on our opinion of Cody. I'm just very disappointed in the lack of accuracy he's shown, but like you've said, first start, mush, and OK state. He's shown some great throws but in general his accuracy hasn't been as good as I expected and I'm just trying to figure out why. It's either development, play calling, or a combination of both.

[Eielson]

Whenever I'm depressed about freshmen QB's, I always try to remind myself about the time Landry threw FIVE interceptions against Nebraska and we lost 10-3 despite their QB only throwing for 35 yards and getting sacked 8 times.

[BoulderSooner79]

Whenever I'm depressed about freshmen QB's, I always try to remind myself about the time Landry threw FIVE interceptions against Nebraska and we lost 10-3 despite their QB only throwing for 35 yards and getting sacked 8 times.

That was the best and most intimidating defense in the country that year - maybe the best in the decade. LJ had zero chance of success in that game. The best we could have done is run the ball 3 times and punt on every series and hope we pop a big run eventually. The reason the game was close was because we had a great defense too and NU had a lousy offense. We probably win the game trading punts because Ryan Broyles was getting close to breaking a return on most punts. But that's easy to say in retrospect, a coach has to go out and try to do what the team normally does best.

[Eielson]

That was the best and most intimidating defense in the country that year - maybe the best in the decade. LJ had zero chance of success in that game. The best we could have done is run the ball 3 times and punt on every series and hope we pop a big run eventually. The reason the game was close was because we had a great defense too and NU had a lousy offense. We probably win the game trading punts because Ryan Broyles was getting close to breaking a return on most punts. But that's easy to say in retrospect, a coach has to go out and try to do what the team normally does best.

Nebraska did have a great defense, but there's no excuse for having a game THAT bad. We probably could have won that game by kneeling 3 times, and then punting every possession. Or just scrapping the kneeling and punting. Literally. If I remember right, at least one of their 2 scores was set up by an interception.

If we're talking decade, I'd say LSU, Alabama, Florida, USC, and Miami all had defenses that were better.

Regardless, sophomore Landry would have won that game 3 scores, and he clearly improved. There are only a few Sam Bradfords and Jameis Winstons out there.

[BoulderSooner79]

Nebraska did have a great defense, but there's no excuse for having a game THAT bad. We probably could have won that game by kneeling 3 times, and then punting every possession. Or just scrapping the kneeling and punting. Literally. If I remember right, at least one of their 2 scores was set up by an interception.

If we're talking decade, I'd say LSU, Alabama, Florida, USC, and Miami all had defenses that were better.

Regardless, sophomore Landry would have won that game 3 scores, and he clearly improved. There are only a few Sam Bradfords and Jameis Winstons out there.

Yes, there was an excuse. LJ was not ready and certainly not ready to play that defense. Heck, that defense made Colt McCoy look silly in his senior year as he was headed for the BCS title game. There was not an inch of separation from the receivers and the Oline couldn't give him 2 seconds of protection. The 1st INT was a clear defensive PI that was not called where the guy just pushed our receiver away and then scored or set up a score. Only a couple of those INT were purely LJ fault and I'm pretty sure one was on 4th down where they get the ball anyway. It was a dreadful performance, but the only thing he could have done much better was just keep throwing the ball away and he didn't have the experience for that yet. A QB wants to make plays. And as badly as LJ (along with our whole offense) was overwhelmed by that NU defense, LJ was still more prepared to play than CT has shown. Against more normal defenses, he did pretty well and even won us some games with his arm.

[Eielson]

Yes, there was an excuse. LJ was not ready and certainly not ready to play that defense. Heck, that defense made Colt McCoy look silly in his senior year as he was headed for the BCS title game. There was not an inch of separation from the receivers and the Oline couldn't give him 2 seconds of protection. The 1st INT was a clear defensive PI that was not called where the guy just pushed our receiver away and then scored or set up a score. Only a couple of those INT were purely LJ fault and I'm pretty sure one was on 4th down where they get the ball anyway. It was a dreadful performance, but the only thing he could have done much better was just keep throwing the ball away and he didn't have the experience for that yet. A QB wants to make plays. And as badly as LJ (along with our whole offense) was overwhelmed by that NU defense, LJ was still more prepared to play than CT has shown. Against more normal defenses, he did pretty well and even won us some games with his arm.

So you're excuse is that Landry was a freshman? That's exactly the point I was making, so it seems like you're arguing for the sake of arguing here.

And Colt threw at least one interception in his first 7 games of that season, so it's not like he was a shining example of efficiency.

[BoulderSooner79]

So you're excuse is that Landry was a freshman? That's exactly the point I was making, so it seems like you're arguing for the sake of arguing here.

And Colt threw at least one interception in his first 7 games of that season, so it's not like he was a shining example of efficiency.

No, I was just challenging your statement that there was no excuse for 1 particular performance. I watched that game and remember it well. It's easy to pull stats and use the caps lock key to say FIVE INTERCEPTIONS. The truth is, the NU defense overpowered our entire offense - our O-line could not block Suh and Crick. We had an inexperienced and not very good O-line that was also riddled with injuries and shuffled game to game. One OL guy broke his foot in that game on top of that. One of LJ's interceptions was on 4th down with no time and no one open and another was in desperation with 40 seconds left in the game. The first pick was the one that had us howling on this board for PI and that is the one they got their TD on. Our kicker missed 2 40-45 yard FGs and had a third one blocked. It was that type of game where every yard was contested.

I'm just saying there is little to compare between LJ and CT other than they are RS FR backups pressed into duty. We put the team on LJ's shoulders as a pass-first offense with a green O-line and he did okay considering. We put CT behind an experienced Oline and mostly asked him to handoff while playing the 3 bottom dwellers of the conference. When we did ask him to pass, he did not fair well at all.

[beached_sooner]

You need to listen to Perine's post game & post week after Tech where he talks about Cody. You don't think that played somewhat into the rushing record? Cody runs the read/option/mesh as well as anyone in college fb

The only receiver the coaches would cut a qb loose with is Shep. When he went down so did our WR production. Shep hasn't played in 5 games and he's still leading receiver by almost double the next guy. What does that tell you?

Sam was running a completely different offense than the one we ran in 2014 apples/oranges

I could care less about a QB with running skills. To me, a QB needs to have enough running skills to scramble and extend the play long enough for the receivers downfield to get open. I'm not interested in trying to establish the next JFF. That's what the running backs are for. Read-option smells too much like the wishbone, which I thought we scrapped decades ago. Leave the friggin' bone to Air Force and Georgia Tech. I much preferred the spread offense where we used the hurry up approach. LJ ran that pretty well, but the dink and dunk offense was pretty boring.

Well if Shep goes down, use the tools you have, as you said he was 8 for 8 in the first half. Keep passing to the running backs, the full back, and Bell. If the defense is stacking 8, 9, and 10 in the box, are you telling me none of the receivers can get open on a quick slant? Man, that should be available all day. When the defense doesn't respect your passing game, no one is going to be able to run against 9 or 10 in the box, not even AD or Demarco Murray.

... "What does that tell you? " ...
It tells me that Trevor is probably not very good at going through his receiver progressions, and is too reliant on Shepard.

Sam might have been running a different offense, but when you don't even attempt to pass, you're shooting your offense in the foot, because the defense stacks the box, and your running game gets shut down too.

If Thomas has the skills, then let him throw it downfield.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

You can take a hard line stance if you want, but things are never this simple.

Knight has talent and he has developed fairly well...at the throws he is good at. He just happens to be good at throws that have a minor impact on the college game. You just can't base an offense on the running game and sideline fades. In college football you have to be able to hit the slant for easy yards. Guess which throw Knight is horrid at?

Thomas I'd argue is lacking on talent - he tries to finesse every throw and has no accuracy. The ball is in the air for a long time and seems to go to the spot where the defender has just as much chance at is as the receiver. His saving grace is that he has really good accuracy on the seam route. The good news is that you CAN base an offense off of the running game and the seam route IF you have a great TE.

As I said earlier in the season, we are a team of mismatched parts under 2 very stubborn coordinators. Now, on this board, people make decisions in seconds without having to justify or sell their opinions. However, in every group situation, the following happens:

1. Evaluate the last game and come up with strengths weaknesses and their overall potential impact in future games
2. Determine whether the flaws are intrinsic or they can be fixed with more practice time on the flaw
3. Evaluate if you change the system or keep it
4. Determine how much practice time to change the system
5. Determine whether the change will increase/decrease chances of victory in the near term

In other words, they are working on aggregated lagging indicators, not leading ones. And just like on this board, people may not agree or build up their evidence until several games down the road. For example, several of us said that Perine might be the best running back we have early in the season. Most people thought we were nuts and said Ford was. Right now, there are still people who think Ford is better. The same thing is occurring in the coaches offices - these guys know how to win, they've done it before, they will do it again.

This 400 times over.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

So let me take a step back in history here.

Everyone on this board agreed that BV needed to either be replaced for various reasons

-1.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Nothing I have seen has led me to believe Trevor Knight is not a DIV 1 talented QB. He Tony Romo's in that he has to throw 1-2 bonehead passes per game.. Linebackers are invisible to him at times...But he is good enough to play the position. Most of his issues are mechanical.

I haven't seen enough of Cody Thomas to make a call, but he is being coached to not make mistakes, and it's hurt him.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I think our bigger problem was not having a secondary that we could gamble more with, not the LBs. That's why we always gave the receivers HUGE cushions. LB play improved and if we had Shannon it would have been even better.

We need a guy that can DEVELOP QBs better not EVALUATE them better.

But, you are correct in that it is not that easy. I still remember the 90s. Ugh, my stomach just turned.

There are multiple reasons that you give receivers big cushions, not just so they won't get past you. One of the primary ones is to give you more time to diagnose run/pass.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Of course it's never simple, and I'll admit that my football IQ comes soley from television and video games. I'll wager you are much more knowledgeable. But I refuse to accept that high-recruited QBs and WRs need years in a system to have a prayer at completing a pass.

Can you accept that after 30 years of playing basketball that Shaquille O'Neal couldn't hit a free throw?
Can you accept that after 20 years of pitching a baseball that a pitcher could still walk in the winning run?

It takes time for a QB to slow down the game enough to read the mess of crap that happens past the LOS. How much time is dependent on the QB. Some guys take 1 year, some take 4 years.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

-1.

pfft, you know his linebacker recruiting was the suck

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I knew that but I knew we would struggle to get the horses to play M2M.

[steveousiu]

I hope I don't repeat something that someone else already posted if so, my apologies up front! - I don't think it's a question of recruiting talent, I think it all falls under the umbrella of QB development - vs - game scheming. What do I mean? JH was a good college QB, it wasn't great, nor did he perform at the next level (injuries had an impact on that) but he worked within the scheme that the current OC (Mike Leach) developed based on JH's skillset. He didn't develop JH to work within his scheme. I tend to believe that such is not the case now with JH as the play caller and QB's coach. I think instead he has developed an annual scheme ( not game by game) and he is trying to get his QB's to fit within that scheme. Instead he needs to develop their skills and then game plan around those skills. I think the same could be said for the defense, per another post, we have a very good front 4, but we don't run a 4 -2 - 5 defense, instead we were stuck with a 3-4 and we didn't use talent the way we should have. I blame both Coordinators, and as much as I hate to say it, Bob needs to put his size 10.5 up someones six, and get them to figure things out. Coach up first to talent and then scheme to that talent, figure out how best to use it against the teams you are playing. If you can't do that, pack your friggin bags and get out of Norman.

[Eielson]

No, I was just challenging your statement that there was no excuse for 1 particular performance. I watched that game and remember it well. It's easy to pull stats and use the caps lock key to say FIVE INTERCEPTIONS. The truth is, the NU defense overpowered our entire offense - our O-line could not block Suh and Crick. We had an inexperienced and not very good O-line that was also riddled with injuries and shuffled game to game. One OL guy broke his foot in that game on top of that. One of LJ's interceptions was on 4th down with no time and no one open and another was in desperation with 40 seconds left in the game. The first pick was the one that had us howling on this board for PI and that is the one they got their TD on. Our kicker missed 2 40-45 yard FGs and had a third one blocked. It was that type of game where every yard was contested.

I'm just saying there is little to compare between LJ and CT other than they are RS FR backups pressed into duty. We put the team on LJ's shoulders as a pass-first offense with a green O-line and he did okay considering. We put CT behind an experienced Oline and mostly asked him to handoff while playing the 3 bottom dwellers of the conference. When we did ask him to pass, he did not fair well at all.

That was the entire point of the comparison.

[BoulderSooner79]

That was the entire point of the comparison.

Well, you were not very clear. You seemed to be saying that if terrible LJ can turn out okay, then terrible CT can too.

[Eielson]

Well, you were not very clear. You seemed to be saying that if terrible LJ can turn out okay, then terrible CT can too.

Essentially, yes. Landry improved a lot, and make whatever justifications you want about 5 interceptions, but that's not something that would have happened later in his career.

[BoulderSooner79]

Essentially, yes. Landry improved a lot, and make whatever justifications you want about 5 interceptions, but that's not something that would have happened later in his career.

Then you were clear and I still disagree with you. Those 5 INTs were really 3. NU was going to get the ball on that 4th down no matter what be it sack, throw away or INT. The throw with 40 seconds left and down 7 points was a hail mary that had to be thrown into coverage. And just ask anyone on this board if LJ would have thrown 3 INTs under pressure later in his career. He turned the ball over several times in the '11 OSU game due to pressure and it still wasn't as much pressure as NU applied. But he certainly did improve in many other areas after '09. But CT situation is completely different. He wasn't the center of the offense left to sink or swim - he was just a fill in to complete a dreadful season. I don't think his experience this year will actually make much difference in his future - development will have to come from elsewhere.

[ddub0224]

There are multiple reasons that you give receivers big cushions, not just so they won't get past you. One of the primary ones is to give you more time to diagnose run/pass.

Never said it was to just not let receivers get past...I said it was to play conservatively, i.e. can't gamble with our corners. Whether it be covering the deep ball or reading run/pass, they perpetually gave big cushions to receivers regardless of down & distance.

[ddub0224]

I don't put the TCU or KSU loss on the offense. The Baylor and maybe the OSU loss can be put on the entire team. And the OSU game came down to lapses in the special teams and on the defense.

We have had some 3 and outs, but it's not been a major issue in most games. As much as we rotate guys in on defense (more than just about any year I can remember), there were very few games where the defense was too tired to finish. We run less plays than we have in past years, and the defenses of those years had better production.

KSU we threw a pick six, and an interception in our end zone. You want to put all the missed field goals & the extra point on the special teams then they can share the blame. To me that's offense. But I will admit that was one of the few games where the offense tried to keep them in the game. The other losses....
Baylor was the whole team but how many points did we score in Q2, Q3, and Q4?....0
TCU how many points did we score in the second half?....9
OSU how many points did we score in the second half and OT?....7
Unless you're playing in the old SEC (yes, sarcasm) you aren't gonna win games without one of the best defenses in the country with that kind of offensive production.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Never said it was to just not let receivers get past...I said it was to play conservatively, i.e. can't gamble with our corners. Whether it be covering the deep ball or reading run/pass, they perpetually gave big cushions to receivers regardless of down & distance.

Lets start over here and talk about our corners.

In a typical good defense, corners very rarely make tackles on running plays. This is because they typically have the "safety" role of filling the hole between the containing DE and the sidelines. They should rarely make the tackle because the same side linebacker should "shoot the gap" and make the tackle before they get to the corner. The less they have to worry about filling for the run, the more they can change to a "pass first, run second" mentality. This is especially true in M2M situations where they may have to turn their back and run with the WR. If they aren't worried about the run, they can concentrate wholly on pressing the WR like we did last year.

The problem we are experiencing is that our DEs can't extend plays to the sidelines and our linebackers aren't fast enough to make a play at the LOS on the edge. The only defensive solution here is to have the corners create an edge that funnels the run back to the incoming linebacker. Thus they get into a "run first, pass second" mentality which requires time to diagnose. Since the WR is your secondary responsibility, you end up trying to "cheat" by looking into the backfield and guessing what is going on.

Since I have to watch Seattle play every weekend due to my wife, they experienced a very similar situation earlier in the season. They couldn't stop the run and had to commit more guys to stop it. Once they did that, their core cover 3 scheme broke down and allowed for teams to exploit all sorts of areas. Now that they have some guys back, they are once again stopping the run with their front 5-6 and their defense has looked pretty close to what it did last year.

It is just the nature of some of these complex schemes - there isn't a lot of flex in assignments without totally exposing areas where you are decently strong.

[UteSooner]

Can you accept that after 30 years of playing basketball that Shaquille O'Neal couldn't hit a free throw?
Can you accept that after 20 years of pitching a baseball that a pitcher could still walk in the winning run?

It takes time for a QB to slow down the game enough to read the mess of crap that happens past the LOS. How much time is dependent on the QB. Some guys take 1 year, some take 4 years.

I don't expect perfection from any athlete or coach, regardless of professional status. I absolutely understand the presence of a learning curve (as well as individual/practical limitations, in the case of your simplistic analogies). I didn't say I expect young players to be world beaters or championship caliber. But when we have a roughly 0% chance at completing a pass downfield...against the 111th best passing defense (even after playing us)...using players with 1 or 2 seasons and 1 or 2 springs under their belt (again, these are highly-regarded recruits)...in a home game...I just can't lay that ineptitude at the feet of the players (like the thread title).

[jkjsooner]

I agree with UteSooner that if we wanted to run a completely different offense, then we should hire an OC that has successfully run that offense. Don't just send JH to read-option 101 and hope he learns on the fly. Personally, I don't want a read-option/QB run oriented offense. I want stud RBs who can run the ball and a big armed QB that can make all the throws. If the QB has wheels and can make himself hard to sack, that's a big bonus. But if we must go with an option run game, hire an expert.

I'm in agreement with this. I don't want a read-option QB either. You can stress a defense enough by having a guy who can run for a first down a few times when everything breaks down.

I just don't want another Landry Jones who can't get a few yards when things break down - unless he is just a stud QB.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I don't expect perfection from any athlete or coach, regardless of professional status. I absolutely understand the presence of a learning curve (as well as individual/practical limitations, in the case of your simplistic analogies). I didn't say I expect young players to be world beaters or championship caliber. But when we have a roughly 0% chance at completing a pass downfield...against the 111th best passing defense (even after playing us)...using players with 1 or 2 seasons and 1 or 2 springs under their belt (again, these are highly-regarded recruits)...in a home game...I just can't lay that ineptitude at the feet of the players (like the thread title).

I don't mind discussing this, but you are going to have to toss out the hyperbole.

1. We had at least 1 huge downfield pass play on Saturday, so that is higher than 0%
2. Thomas is a RS FR who played baseball in the spring. He doesn't have 1 or 2 springs under his belt, more like 25%.
3. All FR are 1 route then dump guys. Do you know how hard it is to complete a pass to that 1 route when they can't get open?

[cvsooner]

The big problem here, and the frustrating part, is that outside of the Baylor game, we were competitive and held leads in all the three losses well into the fourth quarter--and then for whatever reasons, weren't able to finish them off. That's the sign of a young, inexperienced team learning on the job.

And I'm also convinced that some of the frustration from the coaches is chunks of this stuff that's going wrong is stuff they've either covered ad nauseam in practice, but improvements don't happen, or improvements are really slow in coming, or seemed so obvious that they should never have to talk about it.

(Example: a senior punter--admittedly from a juco, but still--in his final punt at Owen Field doesn't kick away from one of the most dangerous returners in college ball. How does THAT happen? Forget the thought that it's probably not the best decision by the coaching staff or head coach or special teams coach or whoever said, "let's do that," but I cannot believe the punter didn't have a better idea than to not kick it towards Hill?)

If our only loss was Baylor, we'd probably have been on the outside looking into the playoffs, due to a big loss at home. To Baylor. In a conference that plays one game less than the champs of other conferences.

Well, lots to mull over in the offseason, for everybody.

[Eielson]

One thing that would do wonders for Thomas is that none of these guys that are currently playing WR would be good enough to get out there next year.

[cvsooner]

3. All FR are 1 route then dump guys. Do you know how hard it is to complete a pass to that 1 route when they can't get open?

The Oklahoman has some stats today about receivers noting that Shepard caught 50 passes and he's out, and Neal caught 40. After that, nobody has more than 19, I think it was. That's a bit more than a pass per game? Blake Bell with 15 catches was the fifth leading receiver. Just about everybody else in the league top three receivers average about 40 catches each...now how much of that is we're running more and throwing less, or so-so passing, or just lousy receiving. It's been painful to watch our receivers this year, who admittedly are doing a fair job of blocking, but route-running is not crisp and when they get open can't seem to catch the ball. Oooof.

[BoulderSooner79]

I don't mind discussing this, but you are going to have to toss out the hyperbole.

1. We had at least 1 huge downfield pass play on Saturday, so that is higher than 0%
2. Thomas is a RS FR who played baseball in the spring. He doesn't have 1 or 2 springs under his belt, more like 25%.
3. All FR are 1 route then dump guys. Do you know how hard it is to complete a pass to that 1 route when they can't get open?

I thought since Thomas was on football scholarship, that football *always* takes precedence over baseball. And that includes football practice outside of the season. Is that incorrect?

[Breadburner]

I think Thomas has a lot of upside.......

[UteSooner]

I don't mind discussing this, but you are going to have to toss out the hyperbole.

1. We had at least 1 huge downfield pass play on Saturday, so that is higher than 0%
2. Thomas is a RS FR who played baseball in the spring. He doesn't have 1 or 2 springs under his belt, more like 25%.
3. All FR are 1 route then dump guys. Do you know how hard it is to complete a pass to that 1 route when they can't get open?

OK but I think you might have introduced hyperbole when you said that Shaq couldn't hit a free throw. He clearly averaged around 50% his entire career :friendly_wink:

1. Yes, I do remember a long pass to Bell? My point is that I don't expect completions on passing downs.
2. I was under the impression that he was able to attend spring practice. If he had to miss it, then they shouldn't allow him to play both sports. Especially as a QB.
3. Probably pretty hard. I know I could never do it.

What is your position? That we are getting all we can expect and that the coaches and players are performing at the highest possible level given their age/experience? You seem unhappy with my defense of the players and my blaming the coaching/development. I'll admit my posts can have a tone that might rub some the wrong way and invite argument for argument's sake.

[UteSooner]

I thought since Thomas was on football scholarship, that football *always* takes precedence over baseball. And that includes football practice outside of the season. Is that incorrect?

I just found an old article from newsok stating that's the case. I don't think he enrolled early so he's been through 2 seasons and 1 spring.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

OK but I think you might have introduced hyperbole when you said that Shaq couldn't hit a free throw. He clearly averaged around 50% his entire career :friendly_wink:

1. Yes, I do remember a long pass to Bell? My point is that I don't expect completions on passing downs.
2. I was under the impression that he was able to attend spring practice. If he had to miss it, then they shouldn't allow him to play both sports. Especially as a QB.
3. Probably pretty hard. I know I could never do it.

What is your position? That we are getting all we can expect and that the coaches and players are performing at the highest possible level given their age/experience? You seem unhappy with my defense of the players and my blaming the coaching/development. I'll admit my posts can have a tone that might rub some the wrong way and invite argument for argument's sake.

My stance:

1. Norvell can't evaluate high school receivers. He can however entice transfers here so he's basically an Eddie Sutton of recruiters. Net-Net is we need someone who can evaluate guys for route running.
2. QB progression is at a standstill since Heupel became OC. This is fairly common in college football though, so I think as a head coach, you always have a dedicated quarterback coach.
3. Heupel and Norvell seem to have eminent faith in their ability to correct mistakes - mistakes that you just can't fix in a season like route running.

[UteSooner]

My stance:

1. Norvell can't evaluate high school receivers. He can however entice transfers here so he's basically an Eddie Sutton of recruiters. Net-Net is we need someone who can evaluate guys for route running.
2. QB progression is at a standstill since Heupel became OC. This is fairly common in college football though, so I think as a head coach, you always have a dedicated quarterback coach.
3. Heupel and Norvell seem to have eminent faith in their ability to correct mistakes - mistakes that you just can't fix in a season like route running.

Can't argue with that.

[Tear Down This Wall]

My stance:

1. Norvell can't evaluate high school receivers. He can however entice transfers here so he's basically an Eddie Sutton of recruiters. Net-Net is we need someone who can evaluate guys for route running.
2. QB progression is at a standstill since Heupel became OC. This is fairly common in college football though, so I think as a head coach, you always have a dedicated quarterback coach.
3. Heupel and Norvell seem to have eminent faith in their ability to correct mistakes - mistakes that you just can't fix in a season like route running.

Add to that the fact that Stoops pretty much leaves them alone, and we've got that going for us as well.

We used to believe that was a plus. Now, with the defense in shambles, it's as though whatever attention or inattention he gives to either unit produces mediocrity...for $5.5 million a season for him and assistants that are
paid higher than the head coaches of G5s.

[birddog]

Add to that the fact that Stoops pretty much leaves them alone, and we've got that going for us as well.

We used to believe that was a plus. Now, with the defense in shambles, it's as though whatever attention or inattention he gives to either unit produces mediocrity...for $5.5 million a season for him and assistants that are
paid higher than the head coaches of G5s.

Do you post on LT? I don't but that group seems to suit you in that they're obsessed with killing the coaches because of their salaries in every single thread.

[Eielson]

My stance:

1. Norvell can't evaluate high school receivers. He can however entice transfers here so he's basically an Eddie Sutton of recruiters. Net-Net is we need someone who can evaluate guys for route running.

That may be the case, but the guy can go down any rivals, scout, or ESPN list of WRs and pretty much pick whoever he wants. I've felt the issues lied more in their development here, or even moreso, their ability to stay here. He's brought in guys like McCay, Metoyer, and Woods that just didn't stick around. If he misevaluated those guys, then just about everybody else did, too. I think Gardner would have been a stud as well. Guys like Justin Brown and Jalen Saunders have been great for us, but Norvell has also brought in guys like Shepard and Stills. I'd guess that Quick will be another stud as well. I think WR and RB are the two positions we don't need to worry about lacking in talent for. This was a bit of a down year at WR, but we'll be in great shape next year.

[beached_sooner]

Okay, so why is it nearly every program can go at least two deep on the roster and still put a guy out on the field who can complete a pass and do a decent job running the offense, and OU doesn't even have 1, much less 2? How can you play division I football without a guy who can complete a forward pass? Josh, not only are you an incompetent OC, but you're a pathetic QB coach as well!

[beached_sooner]

Any of you guys wanna step forward this morning and say you still believe Knight can become a serviceable QB?

[EatLeadCommie]

That may be the case, but the guy can go down any rivals, scout, or ESPN list of WRs and pretty much pick whoever he wants. I've felt the issues lied more in their development here, or even moreso, their ability to stay here. He's brought in guys like McCay, Metoyer, and Woods that just didn't stick around. If he misevaluated those guys, then just about everybody else did, too. I think Gardner would have been a stud as well. Guys like Justin Brown and Jalen Saunders have been great for us, but Norvell has also brought in guys like Shepard and Stills. I'd guess that Quick will be another stud as well. I think WR and RB are the two positions we don't need to worry about lacking in talent for. This was a bit of a down year at WR, but we'll be in great shape next year.

You're more optimistic than I am. Broyles and Shepard have been the high points at WR for the last several years. We lucked out getting Brown and Saunders via transfers. Our problems at WR development are, in my estimation, coinciding with our problems at QB development. I saw nothing this year that gives me hope in our WR corps next year. Nothing at all. Granted, TK sees the field about as well as my grandmother, but the guys not named Shepard weren't exactly running open all over the field.

[Texas Golfer]

I think Blake Mayfield may be our QB for the next couple of years.

[EatLeadCommie]

Any of you guys wanna step forward this morning and say you still believe Knight can become a serviceable QB?

After the Bama game last year, absolutely. After this season and what may be the worst performance I've ever seen by an OU QB last night, no way. He has regressed, just like Landry did. The problem is Landry didn't stop improving until the end of his sophomore year. I fear TK will be eternally stuck in freshman mode.

[EatLeadCommie]

I think Blake Mayfield may be our QB for the next couple of years.

Baker Mayfield, but yes. How is the Hansen kid?

[Eielson]

Any of you guys wanna step forward this morning and say you still believe Knight can become a serviceable QB?

Yes.

[Texas Golfer]

Baker Mayfield, but yes. How is the Hansen kid?

Thank you. I had Blake Bell on my mind wondering if this was his last football game ever.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

If Baker Mayfield is the QB of the future, then get ready for more seasons like this one.

[cvsooner]

Any of you guys wanna step forward this morning and say you still believe Knight can become a serviceable QB?

Serviceable? He was serviceable for much of this season, and does have an 11-4 record as a starter, so I guess that make him serviceable. His injury problems will likely do him in as much as anything. That and throwing interceptions. I wonder what the record is for throwing pick sixes in a season in major college ball? Surely he's got to be close to that...

[Eielson]

Serviceable? He was serviceable for much of this season, and does have an 11-4 record as a starter, so I guess that make him serviceable. His injury problems will likely do him in as much as anything. That and throwing interceptions. I wonder what the record is for throwing pick sixes in a season in major college ball? Surely he's got to be close to that...

Exactly. He's already serviceable. The question is, is he championship quality? That's tough to say, but a new OC and throwing to DGB and Shep next year would do wonders for him.

[Texas Golfer]

If Baker Mayfield is the QB of the future, then get ready for more seasons like this one.

Well, Mayfield is 7-0 as a starter. His former team is 5-13 without him. In the spring game, he was the only QB with any success. He was 9-9 with 2 TDs. I like our chances with him.

[Texas Golfer]

Exactly. He's already serviceable. The question is, is he championship quality? That's tough to say, but a new OC and throwing to DGB and Shep next year would do wonders for him.

I think DGB will be declaring for the draft.

[cvsooner]

I think DGB will be declaring for the draft.

I dunno. I dunno a lot of things. Program is very much in a state of flux right now. It wasn't just the players last night that were acting like they didn't care. Couple of the coaches may already suspect they're very much in the need of polishing resumés.

My guess is Gundy, Norvell, Bedenbaugh stay, with Heupel demoted to QB coach only. Either Norvell will get promoted to OC and a new WRs coach brought in (which I think would be good), or he may be gone too.

On D, Montgomery. The rest of the D coaches...probably gone. I wasn't a fan of bringing back Mike Stoops. I saw a fair amount of his Arizona teams living out here on the West Coast and they were....not so good. And the guy is an embarrassment to the program, really, sad to say. Venables has his shortcomings, as do all coaches, but it was pretty clear he had the better D last night...at least the passing D.

I have no idea who to bring in.

Boulware to keep doing TEs and Special Teams is okay. Give the guy another year.

[Eielson]

Well, Mayfield is 7-0 as a starter. His former team is 4-13 without him. In the spring game, he was the only QB with any success. He was 9-9 with 2 TDs. I like our chances with him.

7-0? I'm not sure about your math.

[Texas Golfer]

7-0? I'm not sure about your math.

My math is off. I was reading an, apparently, incorrect source.

[Eielson]

He started their first 7 games. They were 7-0. I'm pretty sure the math adds up.

No, he didn't. He started their first 5 games, and he won all of them, but I don't believe any of those teams were bowl eligible by the end of the season. He returned to play the final three games, all of which were bowl-eligible, and he lost them all. As a starter, he was 5-2.

Lighting up our second team defense in a scrimmage isn't saying much. Most QBs lit up our 1st team defense in actual games. That may be saying more than beating teams like Texas State, Stephen F Austin, and SMU, though.

[REDREX]

Well, Mayfield is 7-0 as a starter. His former team is 5-13 without him. In the spring game, he was the only QB with any success. He was 9-9 with 2 TDs. I like our chances with him.---If you are counting on Mayfield to start next year we are in for another long season---TT would not give him a Scolly---I don't care if he "tore it up" on the Scout team

[bigfatjerk]

Mayfield wasn't all that good in conference play last year. He was real good against the FCS/Weak FBS teams Tech played last year. But he could have improved his game. The biggest issue is that we don't have good schemes for a passing offense right now. I'm not even sure what to call our offense right now. It's a bit of a power look with some spread offense thrown in. It's has no real identity.

[bigfatjerk]

Mayfield had 4 TDs against Baylor and 5 overall TDs in 5 conference games.

[aero]

I'd take Mayfield over TK in a heart beat

[REDREX]

Mayfield had 4 TDs against Baylor and 5 overall TDs in 5 conference games.---And they lost by 29 to Baylor

[BoulderSooner79]

I'd take Mayfield over TK in a heart beat

Pretty easy to say after yesterday. The injury and layoff obviously got in TK's head because he was awful. Next year will be interesting at the QB position. I don't assume anything about Mayfield since that was a different team, coach and system. Usually, transfers don't work out, but I think his transfer was unusual, so we'll see. Probably, a bunch of interesting things will happen in the next few months that could alter the whole picture.

[aero]

Pretty easy to say after yesterday. The injury and layoff obviously got in TK's head because he was awful. Next year will be interesting at the QB position. I don't assume anything about Mayfield since that was a different team, coach and system. Usually, transfers don't work out, but I think his transfer was unusual, so we'll see. Probably, a bunch of interesting things will happen in the next few months that could alter the whole picture.

Actually, it was pretty easy for me before yesterday. I've never been impressed with TK other than his game against Bama. I thought I'd been wrong about him and he was going to turn into a good qb. But this year was the real TK and just what I thought. He seems like a great guy but he's not a qb that OU is going to win with. Simple as that. Yes, I think our oc is lame but that doesn't cover for his abilities. Only compounds the problem. OU doesn't look like they're going to be competing for any hardware in the next few years so I guess it's not going to matter who is qb.

[SoonerLB]

I'm not even sure what to call our offense right now. It's a bit of a power look with some spread offense thrown in. It's has no real identity.

I know what I would call our offense right now, a PREDICTABLE JOKE!

Saw this on a CFB discussion, seems to ring true:
"How many OU coaches does it take to change a light bulb?
None. They aren't about to change a bulb when flipping a switch has worked for 15 years."

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

If Baker Mayfield is the QB of the future, then get ready for more seasons like this one.

Mayfield can at least throw semi-accurately over the middle (the one complaint they had about him at Tech was over-reliance on the slant even if it was covered). I don't know if anyone else noticed but Clemson wasn't even bothering to cover routes over the middle. There was one play where Sheperd was running uncovered over the middle and he didn't even put up his hand - almost as if he knew that even if Knight saw him, he couldn't hit him with the pass.

[ouhomer123]

If we are counting on Mayfield to be the savior at quarterback we are fooling ourselves. We need to bring in another QB, TK should only be a backup as a running QB not a passing one. The ones we have have proven to us there NOT division 1 QB`s.

[SoonerLB]

Good point jkm, I for one question TK's ability to throw an accurate pass. His accuracy wasn't the best even before his latest injury IMHO, and it seems to have taken a nose dive this season. He had his day of glory against Bama and it's been downhill since. Throw in the Katy Perry kiss of death, and the writing is on the wall. At least we know Mayfield has a history of being accurate, hopefully hard-headed Bob will give him a chance. And a new, good, offensive coordinator!

[bigfatjerk]

I know what I would call our offense right now, a PREDICTABLE JOKE!

Saw this on a CFB discussion, seems to ring true:
"How many OU coaches does it take to change a light bulb?
None. They aren't about to change a bulb when flipping a switch has worked for 15 years."

I'm fine with a predictable offense if it works. Look at Dallas right now. They run it on 1st and 10 like 90% of the time. Then use play action on 2nd and 6 to Dez Bryant. If it's 3rd and 5-7 they pass it over the middle to Witten or the white WR. You can probably predict about 90% of the offensive snaps in a Dallas game but they have an identity and keep with it.

There are times when OU forgets what it really has at RB and decides to be a spread team with a QB that doesn't have any passing skills or isn't coached well enough with those skills. Trevor Knight's career completion percentage in high school should have sent red flags to us all, but because of the Bama game we all ignored them.

[aurorasooner]

No, he didn't. He started their first 5 games, and he won all of them, but I don't believe any of those teams were bowl eligible by the end of the season. He returned to play the final three games, all of which were bowl-eligible, and he lost them all. As a starter, he was 5-2.

Lighting up our second team defense in a scrimmage isn't saying much. Most QBs lit up our 1st team defense in actual games. That may be saying more than beating teams like Texas State, Stephen F Austin, and SMU, though. I think after what HCBS continually said after the Sugar Bowl last year about TK, something like "In this game you saw what we (the coaches see) every day from him in practice", that any references from our coaching staff as to what our QBs achieve against any of our defenses in practice, 1st team, 2nd team, or Scout team as compared to what they will do against any defensive team we play that has a pulse, is just pure total Bull*&^$.

[Eielson]

Maybe TK isn't the answer, but neither is Baker Mayfield. It's like firing Bob to replace him with Mike. Maybe by stroke of luck it works, but there is no reason to believe it will. If TK isnt the guy, go with Hansen or Thomas.

[graphster]

Kind of hard to evaluate any of these QBs given the way our offensive game planning has regressed so dramatically over the past 3 years. TK could be decent in a system where the playcalling and play design limited his decision-making and relied more heavily on his running ability. This, of course, would require an offensive coordinator who knew how to establish (and stick with) the running game and who understood that you don't recruit dual threat QBs unless you plan to make the QB run game a major part of your offense. TK will probably not ever be successful as a pass-first pocket style QB. 37 pass attempts in a game is about 17 attempts too many.

Also, with how bad our pass defense has been of late, I'm not sure that we will learn much about any of these players based on how they play in the spring. I mean, we just made Clemson's backup QB look like an All American. Texas had less than 100 yards of total offense in the bowl game and the announcers spent most of the day talking about how they needed to find another option at QB. Their QB had almost 400 yards of total offense against us. So I have no confidence that good performances during spring practice and fall camp (from any of the QBs) will translate to production next season.

[EatLeadCommie]

Unless we get the next Cam Newton, I'm not sure it's going to matter who we get at QB because nobody is coaching the QBs.

[Texas Golfer]

Maybe TK isn't the answer, but neither is Baker Mayfield. It's like firing Bob to replace him with Mike. Maybe by stroke of luck it works, but there is no reason to believe it will. If TK isnt the guy, go with Hansen or Thomas.

I think we've already seen that Thomas isn't the answer. If not Mayfield, perhaps Hansen.

[Eielson]

I think we've already seen that Thomas isn't the answer. If not Mayfield, perhaps Hansen.

You're writing off Thomas already?

*facepalm*

[beached_sooner]

Maybe TK isn't the answer, but neither is Baker Mayfield. It's like firing Bob to replace him with Mike. Maybe by stroke of luck it works, but there is no reason to believe it will. If TK isnt the guy, go with Hansen or Thomas.

Now, you're finally coming around (i.e., "TK isn't the answer") ! :applouse:

[REDREX]

Looks like Braxton Miller is going to FSU

[ouhomer123]

We need a QB similar to Boykin, for that matter a whole team like TCU. I remember when our team had that fire in there belly, it is just not there right now.

[Texas Golfer]

You're writing off Thomas already?

*facepalm*

He's had several games to show his passing skills. Can he get better? I hope so. But maybe Knight can get better, too. I'd like to see what Mayfield and Hansen can do.

[SicEmBaylor]

OU should have made a run for Chad President. I'd rather see him with Monty, but Knight is never going to cut it.

[Texas Golfer]

OU should have made a run for Chad President. I'd rather see him with Monty, but Knight is never going to cut it.

OU was never in the mix for President. Once Baylor recruited that 5-star QB and Montgomery moved to Tulsa, I knew what was going to happen even before it was announced.

[Eielson]

Now, you're finally coming around (i.e., "TK isn't the answer") ! :applouse:

I didn't say he's NOT the answer. I just said he might not be.

He's probably not the answer if Heupel remains the coach, though. We wouldn't have done much, if any, better with Boykin.

[REDREX]

Kyler Murray may flip from A&M-----Hope it happens

[aurorasooner]

Kyler Murray may flip from A&M-----Hope it happensI've been thinking about this, and he may flip. Being a legacy and only riding the pine while waiting their turn for a couple of years is not what these kids want nowadays.
Of course, he also may flip to the whorns, (don't know about TCU and how much eligibility Boykin has left) which would be worse for us.