Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

[8timechamps]

I've read several comments (here and elsewhere) that this particular play (the pick 6 TK threw to KSU) was a "Bad/Horrible" play-call by Heupel. I just want to set the record straight: IT WAS NOT A BAD PLAY CALL. It was bad execution.

First, let's look at the play called:

It's a QB run/pass read option play. Trevor has three options on this play:

1. Keep the ball - This would be the last option on the play, depending on what he reads.
2. Hand the ball off - This would be his second option, based on what he's reading after the snap.
3. Throw the ball - Even though I listed it as his 3rd option, it's equivalent to his first/second option, again, all based on what he's reading.

On the play in question, TK reads pass pre-snap based on how the defense is aligned. He still has the option to read run, but it's a split second read right after the snap. It appears he had made the pre-snap read and decided to throw. I don't know if that was the correct read, but the execution was the error.

If the KSU safety stays high and the CB plays soft, the throw would have gone for 5 yards and we'd be looking at 2nd and 5 from about the 5. If the safety stays inside and the CB misplays the route, it's a 99 yard TD and we're all happy. Neither of those things happened. The safety looks inside (thinking run), and the CB jumps the route immediately. Before the ball is out of TK's hand, the CB is on the route. Since TK made the decision to go to Neal (and it appears he made that decision pre-snap, based on where the CB was aligned), it was over before it started. The CB played very aggressive and was rewarded with a pick 6.

Had TK taken a second to progress through his reads, he would have seen the CB jump and either run the ball himself, hit Neal (on the out and up) for a long TD or hit Shepard for an easy out. TK knew he made a mistake the second he released the ball. He just has to learn not to throw that ball in that situation.

Now, onto the play call:

First, simply calling a 5 yard out is not a "bad" play call from the end zone. Most corners are going to play soft in that situation (just as the corner opposite did on that play). Regardless, the play gives TK the option to pass OR run (either himself or the RB). The fact that we've had success with that same play call this year (including that game) makes it a logical call.

This particular call was not a "Bad/Horrible" play call. If you want to see a bad play call from that game, it was the Neal reverse pass. Not this one.

[cvsooner]

I will counter with knowing his level of experience at this point it's a play with more risk than reward and shouldn't have been called. Yes, Trevor made the wrong read, and the KSU player made a great play on it. That's what Snyder teams do: they force you into mistakes and then capitalize on them.

[8timechamps]

I will counter with knowing his level of experience at this point it's a play with more risk than reward and shouldn't have been called. Yes, Trevor made the wrong read, and the KSU player made a great play on it. That's what Snyder teams do: they force you into mistakes and then capitalize on them.

The point would be valid if he had never run that play, or only seen it in practice. We've run that play a lot this year, including multiple times in that game.

That play was not a bad call. If you (not you specifically) are looking for a reason to call Heupel out, then every play that doesn't work is bad. In this case, the call was fine. The outcome is completely in the execution.

Trevor's got enough experience, and is smart enough to run that play correctly (as he has done in every game this year). He just made a mistake, it happens to even the most veteran players.

[achiro]

The KSU player didn't make a "great play" he saw TK's eyes and knew it was coming. If TK had just pump faked once, it would have been an easy over the top throw for as far as Neal could have outrun the defenders(TD). As it was, TK stared down his receiver and that's all she wrote.

[8timechamps]

The KSU player didn't make a "great play" he saw TK's eyes and knew it was coming. If TK had just pump faked once, it would have been an easy over the top throw for as far as Neal could have outrun the defenders(TD). As it was, TK stared down his receiver and that's all she wrote.

The corner jumped immediately (he was already pressing at the snap), so as soon as TK let the ball go his (the corner) eye's probably lit up like it was Christmas morning. You're right, a pump fake and it's over.

[freshchris05]

That throw was on Trevor. But I'm pretty sure QB development falls under Heupel's responsibilities.

[birddog]

8x, you are a loyal fan and you give all of us great insight and info on this board. I just feel like there are 10 other plays that wouldn't have resulted in a pick. With the cb pressing doesn't the play seem even more I'll-advised? I mean , a 30 yard pass across the field with a cb salivating at the prospect of jumping the route? You know way more than me so if I'm off base, fill me in.

[BoulderSooner79]

All a matter of opinion. I didn't like the risk/reward on that play - reward was only a 5 yard gain. You could argue an out and up could have been a huge gainer, but no one said an out and up was an option. I don't think the call was as awful as many have suggested as people are influenced by the outcome. Had it worked for 5 yards, no one would have thought twice about it.

I didn't have too much heartburn over the Neal reverse/pass. If it had worked for a TD, it would have been hailed a great call not just for the outcome, but for showing our willingness to gamble. My only gripe is I thought we were too close-in around the 20 yard line. Had we been at the 30 or farther I would have had no issues at all. The player that intercepted the ball was fooled and only drifted back late. Had the line of scrimmage been the 30 and the target still in the end zone, no way he gets there. But again it was execution as Neal was surprised how quickly the DE got on him and he threw off balance and got nothing on the throw. Have to give credit to the KSU guy for staying home.

So the play calling that killed me was Perine up the middle on our last drive. Not necessarily the 3rd down call, but the fact we did it 3 times in a row. By then, it was crystal clear that KSU was going to do everything in their power to take away Perine between the tackles. And they were almost conceding we could score in other ways. JY outlined it perfectly over on TFB in his "What it boiled down to.." entry. He speculated that Snyder wanted either a goal-line stand or he wanted us to quickly so he had time left to counter. Makes sense. He also speculated we insisted on running because we wanted to burn clock. That one I don't buy because there was too much time left to worry about that. If our line had been dominating theirs all day, I would have understood the sequence. But it hadn't; in fact, they had held Perine to lots of very short carries during the game when they had their normal defense on the field, let alone the 8/9 in the box on the goal line. Take what the defense gives applies even on the goal line.

[birddog]

What is tfb again? Am I asking a question the equivalent of "why do they call him AD"?

[BoulderSooner79]

What is tfb again? Am I asking a question the equivalent to "why do they call him AD"?

TheFootballBrainiacs.com

[swardboy]

So if I'm hearing the reads right, the time the ball took to be snapped to TK is the time the cb jumped up to the line. This is the weakness of always being in the shotgun. With the QB under center he can be making reads like that. In the shotgun his attention is diverted to handling the snap. Under center, pre-snap reads aren't as essential.

[aurorasooner]

Now we know how the Corn fans felt when we picked their pocket for 6 deep in their own end in Norman and we went on to a record 1st quarter.

There's no justifying an offensive staff that calls that play deep in our own territory w/o coaching-up the QB to not throw it if the defender is right there.
If our QB threw it anyway after being coached-up to not do it under those conditions, then he should've been on the pine a minimum of 1 series to think about it before we put him back in. I don't give a damn if the QB is AA and the BU is a pimple faced frosh and it forces us to run 3 up the middle for no gain, that is just not acceptable.
Reeks of sub-par coaching and/or lack of discipline, imo.
Also, I could see it and excuse it if it was some type of great play by the defender, but defensive back just looked up and it was an easy gift 6.
The TCU pick 6 was different, in that it was a very very good stretch and catch play by their defender.


I guess on the bright side, it was a perfect strike, not high and not a gopher killer. :highly_amused:

[olevetonahill]

Holy Horse Poop
If it had worked we we all be praising Josh and Trevor
**** me . They did good!

[thecrimsoncrusader]

Here is why the play-call was bad:

On the play before, as per usual, the play was late in terms of getting called in and as per usual, the coaching staff had to call a time-out. As the whistle blew, Knight received the snap and immediately turned toward the receiver he was going to throw to including being in the throwing motion before hanging into the ball since the whistle blew.

After the time-out, OU is in the exact same formation with the same snap count. So soon as the ball was snapped, once again, Knight turned his head towards Neal this time and the corner jumped the route, which resulted in a pick six.

What OU should have done is the same thing they did two previous times successfully this season when very deep in their own territory (i.e. near the goal line) and go deep. KSU's defense was playing in tight expecting either a short pass or a run play, which is typical in the scenario, so a big play down field was there to be made.

Knight needed to be smarter there, but given the scenario that happened prior to this play, the end result was definitely on Josh Heupel.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

This is one reason The Steelers QB coach said he had never seen a player more setup for failure by his coaches than Landry Jones..

I still have to say the call was bad in that position on the field.. I don't blame Heupel or Knight though, I blame the PC process that they have. too many people involved.

[kbsooner21]

That is where it is Heupel's fault. You don't give your QB who is completing 56% of his passes on the year the option TO throw that pass imo.

[KantoSooner]

Here is why the play-call was bad:

On the play before, as per usual, the play was late in terms of getting called in and as per usual, the coaching staff had to call a time-out. As the whistle blew, Knight received the snap and immediately turned toward the receiver he was going to throw to including being in the throwing motion before hanging into the ball since the whistle blew.

After the time-out, OU is in the exact same formation with the same snap count. So soon as the ball was snapped, once again, Knight turned his head towards Neal this time and the corner jumped the route, which resulted in a pick six.

What OU should have done is the same thing they did two previous times successfully this season when very deep in their own territory (i.e. near the goal line) and go deep. KSU's defense was playing in tight expecting either a short pass or a run play, which is typical in the scenario, so a big play down field was there to be made.

Knight needed to be smarter there, but given the scenario that happened prior to this play, the end result was definitely on Josh Heupel.

Which is why I wonder if TK is even being given the option of going through multiple reads/options or if JH is simply telling him where to go with it prior to the play.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

Which is why I wonder if TK is even being given the option of going through multiple reads/options or if JH is simply telling him where to go with it prior to the play.

Agreed, I wonder to. At a surface level, things definitely appear to be pre-determined. I really wish Coach Heupel would get his butt back on the sidelines to get right in the grill of his QB so to speak and teach him on the fly.

Landry improved from his freshman year to sophomore year (2009 to 2010), but then flat-lined in 2011 and 2012 with 2011 being Coach Heupel's first year as the OC and in the press box. And Knight while having a heck of a game sans that pick six, has not improved significantly since last season when taking this season as a whole.

[KantoSooner]

Not saying that this is what's happening, but one could look at both LJ and TK and diagnose a good bit of their 'bad' play as being the result of being dominated by another person who demanded to make in-game decisions and took away their right to make calls on the spot. The seeming bone-headed failures to 'see' defensive adjustments, the hesitancy, the self-doubt, the failure to take off (on LJ's part), and so forth.
Now, would an ex-QB, natty winner star, who didn't catch on in the pros perhaps, just maybe, have the ego and the compulsion to exert such control over his pupils?
There are a lot of other things that would make you want to say 'no'. Things like, WTH would Bob allow such a situation to persist? Why would Norvell?
But there's something of a 'fit' there between observed fact and the above theory. Enough to make me think about it. Our last two QB's have tended to look a bit like dispirited puppets from time to time.

[BoulderSooner79]

Agreed, I wonder to. At a surface level, things definitely appear to be pre-determined. I really wish Coach Heupel would get his butt back on the sidelines to get right in the grill of his QB so to speak and teach him on the fly.

Landry improved from his freshman year to sophomore year (2009 to 2010), but then flat-lined in 2011 and 2012 with 2011 being Coach Heupel's first year as the OC and in the press box. And Knight while having a heck of a game sans that pick six, has not improved significantly since last season when taking this season as a whole.

There are so many other factors, it's hard to say for sure. LJ also lost the services of Murray and I think Hanna going from '10 to '11, and it's hard to discount that. Hanna may not have been all world for us, but he was the last TE to have a big role in our offense (and he was good enough to make the NFL). I don't need to say how important DM was.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

There are so many other factors, it's hard to say for sure. LJ also lost the services of Murray and I think Hanna going from '10 to '11, and it's hard to discount that. Hanna may not have been all world for us, but he was the last TE to have a big role in our offense (and he was good enough to make the NFL). I don't need to say how important DM was.

But he also didn't really improve in his final year either (2012).

[BoulderSooner79]

But he also didn't really improve in his final year either (2012).

I'm not disagreeing, just saying there are lots of factors. The entire '12 team was not as good as the '10 or (pre-injury fest) '11 teams.

[PalmBeachSooner]

I will counter with knowing his level of experience at this point it's a play with more risk than reward and shouldn't have been called. Yes, Trevor made the wrong read, and the KSU player made a great play on it. That's what Snyder teams do: they force you into mistakes and then capitalize on them.

I agree. I don't think you need to put TK in that situation. He isn't going to keep it, and we are ignoring what KSU's front seven was showing.

I certainly believe Neal didn't help is QB. He made no effort whatsoever on that play. He has a responsibility to read the defense just as much as TK does on that play. He pretty much stood there and watched.

I think Neal is the poster-child for this team when it comes to effort and execution. With a few exceptions they are inconsistent when it comes to effort and execution.

[BermudaSooner]

Now we know how the Corn fans felt when we picked their pocket for 6 deep in their own end in Norman and we went on to a record 1st quarter.

There's no justifying an offensive staff that calls that play deep in our own territory w/o coaching-up the QB to not throw it if the defender is right there.
If our QB threw it anyway after being coached-up to not do it under those conditions, then he should've been on the pine a minimum of 1 series to think about it before we put him back in. I don't give a damn if the QB is AA and the BU is a pimple faced frosh and it forces us to run 3 up the middle for no gain, that is just not acceptable.
Reeks of sub-par coaching and/or lack of discipline, imo.
Also, I could see it and excuse it if it was some type of great play by the defender, but defensive back just looked up and it was an easy gift 6.
The TCU pick 6 was different, in that it was a very very good stretch and catch play by their defender.


I guess on the bright side, it was a perfect strike, not high and not a gopher killer. :highly_amused:

If you sit TK, then we probably don't have the drive all the way down the field for a TD that happened right after that play.

[BoulderSooner79]

If you sit TK, then we probably don't have the drive all the way down the field for a TD that happened right after that play.

This exactly! It was no fluke we went down the field and scored on 3 plays following the pick 6. Josh opened the playbook in order to both respond with points, and to re-inflate TK's confidence. You can claim we might have had that drive w/o the pick 6, but that's unknowable -- I'll just claim with certainty that the pick 6 changed our plan for the next possession and it worked out for us. And TK was sharp the rest of the game.

That's why the 1st and goal at the 4 series irked me the most. You can recover from things that happen early in the game. But in that last series, we knew it could well be our last possession and it turned out that way. We had to get points and even though we had to keep the FG available (sigh), a TD was far preferable given the time remaining. Running into a goal line defense 3 times to prove our diks were bigger smacked of low IQ football.

[BoulderSooner79]

I agree. I don't think you need to put TK in that situation. He isn't going to keep it, and we are ignoring what KSU's front seven was showing.

I certainly believe Neal didn't help is QB. He made no effort whatsoever on that play. He has a responsibility to read the defense just as much as TK does on that play. He pretty much stood there and watched.

I think Neal is the poster-child for this team when it comes to effort and execution. With a few exceptions they are inconsistent when it comes to effort and execution.

I can't comment on Neal's effort in general as I haven't watched him closely. But it was certainly poor execution on that play. He made no attempt to create separation on that route. No juke inside and especially, no drive downfield to try to get the corner to turn his hips or at least force him to stop looking at TK. It was just a lazy, rounded off out pattern that allowed the DB to cover him and watch TK at the same time. Hope that's not the way it was drawn up.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Not sure how anyone would assume that if TK did pump fake that Neal would break off his route up field anyway.

[BoulderSooner79]

Not sure how anyone would assume that if TK did pump fake that Neal would break off his route up field anyway.

I don't either. And I'm not assuming that if my posts implied as much. I would have liked to see a crisper out route on that play and maybe the DB has to start back pedaling. The option I would have expected from TK would be to see the DB has inside position and just air mail the ball high and out of bounds and hope the next play works better.

[TheUnnamedSooner]

Not sure how anyone would assume that if TK did pump fake that Neal would break off his route up field anyway.

You're right. Neal probably would have been faked out as well.

[8timechamps]

8x, you are a loyal fan and you give all of us great insight and info on this board. I just feel like there are 10 other plays that wouldn't have resulted in a pick. With the cb pressing doesn't the play seem even more I'll-advised? I mean , a 30 yard pass across the field with a cb salivating at the prospect of jumping the route? You know way more than me so if I'm off base, fill me in.

I'm sure there are plays that would have had a better outcome, but when you start talking about that, you're entering the "It's a great call if it works, it's a terrible call if it doesn't" area.

The corner is lined up in soft coverage, he doesn't jump the route until after the snap, and it's a aggressive/risky play because he was "all in". If TK reads his press, then Neal takes the out and up for a TD. It was just a mistake. Like I said above, even the most veteran players make mistakes, and that was TK's for the day.

Any pass in that area can be risky, which is why Heupel called the option. Ultimately, there's no magic play call there, but I think the call was fine. It just wasn't executed.

I don't give Heupel a pass when he makes bad calls (or has a bad game), but this wasn't one of those situations. The Neal interception and series of plays at the goal line (at the end of the game) were questionable (at best), but overall I thought this was one of Heupel's best games.

[8timechamps]

Here is why the play-call was bad:

On the play before, as per usual, the play was late in terms of getting called in and as per usual, the coaching staff had to call a time-out. As the whistle blew, Knight received the snap and immediately turned toward the receiver he was going to throw to including being in the throwing motion before hanging into the ball since the whistle blew.

After the time-out, OU is in the exact same formation with the same snap count. So soon as the ball was snapped, once again, Knight turned his head towards Neal this time and the corner jumped the route, which resulted in a pick six.

What OU should have done is the same thing they did two previous times successfully this season when very deep in their own territory (i.e. near the goal line) and go deep. KSU's defense was playing in tight expecting either a short pass or a run play, which is typical in the scenario, so a big play down field was there to be made.

Knight needed to be smarter there, but given the scenario that happened prior to this play, the end result was definitely on Josh Heupel.

I don't understand how people can continue to put the blame on Heupel for that play.

TK has the option to hand off the football (or keep it himself). Hell, he didn't even progress through his reads, he was going to Neal before the ball was snapped. How is that on Heupel?

I know there are plenty of folks unsatisfied with JH, and there's plenty of evidence to back up that criticism, but pointing at this play as being a bad play call seems off base to me. If the play works, nobody gives it a second thought. Nobody.

[8timechamps]

Not sure how anyone would assume that if TK did pump fake that Neal would break off his route up field anyway.

I'm assuming Neal knows how to play the position (granted, that could be a bad assumption). We coach it in high school, so I'm assuming it's coached at OU, but when the safety on your side commits to the middle of the field (or the run), and the corner presses down, it's an automatic 'go' if the initial route isn't there. At that point, you're in one-on-one coverage, with the CB a step behind. It may not always lead to a TD, but it should always be in the WR's mind.

[8timechamps]

Which is why I wonder if TK is even being given the option of going through multiple reads/options or if JH is simply telling him where to go with it prior to the play.

The only time he doesn't have the option available is when the call is a give to the RB. Since we run from the pistol the majority of time, it looks just like a zone read, but there's never an option for TK to keep the ball. On the run/pass option, TK always has the option to hand off or pass. In fact, we've run that same play in every game this year, and quite a few times against KSU.

Even Cody Thomas ran the play (it resulted in a pass to Shepard). It's not a difficult play, and it's certainly not too complex for Knight. For whatever reason, he didn't see the CB sitting on the route and threw the ball. Just a mistake. Nothing more, nothing less.

[BoulderSooner79]

I'm sure there are plays that would have had a better outcome, but when you start talking about that, you're entering the "It's a great call if it works, it's a terrible call if it doesn't" area.



Yep. Every single play presents risk the other team will score whether your team is on offense, defense or ST. This play is being picked on because of the outcome. I'm sure there are many other plays we ran with higher than average turnover risk, but it didn't happen so it's not questioned. There are definitely plays that I question such as coaches opting to go for 2 too early in the game. But execute it well and convert the 2 points is the best way to cover up a questionable decision.

[8timechamps]

Yep. Every single play presents risk the other team will score whether your team is on offense, defense or ST. This play is being picked on because of the outcome. I'm sure there are many other plays we ran with higher than average turnover risk, but it didn't happen so it's not questioned. There are definitely plays that I question such as coaches opting to go for 2 too early in the game. But execute it well and convert the 2 points is the best way to cover up a questionable decision.

That's why the OC position at OU is almost a 'no-win' position. It's probably that way at every program.

When we used Neal to throw the TD against TCU (or WVU, can't remember), I thought "what a great call!". When we used him last week, I thought "what a terrible call!". The truth is, all calls that result in gains are "good", and the ones that don't work are "bad". That's just how we, as fans, view these things. 20/20 hindsight is great that way.

[cvsooner]

That's why the OC position at OU is almost a 'no-win' position. It's probably that way at every program.

When we used Neal to throw the TD against TCU (or WVU, can't remember), I thought "what a great call!". When we used him last week, I thought "what a terrible call!". The truth is, all calls that result in gains are "good", and the ones that don't work are "bad". That's just how we, as fans, view these things. 20/20 hindsight is great that way.

West Virginia.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I griped about it against WV also.. I don't like putting the ball in someone else's hands in the RZ..Middle of the field? sure..

The only reason the WV made more sense is that the QB play wasn't as good as it was Saturday.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Where I differ after talking with some former players is putting the blame on JH when 4 people are involved in the play call process..Too many IMO.

[BoulderSooner79]

I griped about it against WV also.. I don't like putting the ball in someone else's hands in the RZ..Middle of the field? sure..

The only reason the WV made more sense is that the QB play wasn't as good as it was Saturday.

Funny, that's exactly how I felt about that play against WVU. Meh, but okay it worked. I was less critical against KSU because it was farther out, but not far enough - agree, it should be near the middle of the field where it's clear they were fooled or not.

But don't get me wrong, I do like gadget plays and think they serve a good purpose outside pure entertainment. They must be used sparingly and in the right situation, not just because it was practiced that week.

[BoulderSooner79]

Where I differ after talking with some former players is putting the blame on JH when 4 people are involved in the play call process..Too many IMO.

4 people !? During the actual game? That's crazy.

[cvsooner]

4 people !? During the actual game? That's crazy.

No wonder we have a hard time getting the call out to the QB.

[BoulderSooner79]

Where I differ after talking with some former players is putting the blame on JH when 4 people are involved in the play call process..Too many IMO.

Okay, I think I over-reacted. If there are already 4 minds on the task, why not add a few more? Josh could set up a website that allows all of us qualified play callers to type in our play selection live during the game. Through the wisdom of the masses, all he would have to do it call the play with the most "likes" and be good to go. Easy peasy. Now if by chance someone dials up a dud that ends up in a turnover, that couch OC gets banned. Also, everyone who "liked" the play gets locked out for that quarter. What could possibly go wrong?

[8timechamps]

Where I differ after talking with some former players is putting the blame on JH when 4 people are involved in the play call process..Too many IMO.

In general, I agree, we have too many cooks in the kitchen. I wonder how much involvement Norvell really has with the game calls (on game day). I'd like to see Heupel on the sideline and Norvell in the box (for many reasons, but I think a sideline coordinator, that is also the QB coach, should have direct access to the QB). I am convinced the reason we see TOs getting burned on offense is because the process is too long. I think that comes from too many people involved.

[8timechamps]

Okay, I think I over-reacted. If there are already 4 minds on the task, why not add a few more? Josh could set up a website that allows all of us qualified play callers to type in our play selection live during the game. Through the wisdom of the masses, all he would have to do it call the play with the most "likes" and be good to go. Easy peasy. Now if by chance someone dials up a dud that ends up in a turnover, that couch OC gets banned. Also, everyone who "liked" the play gets locked out for that quarter. What could possibly go wrong?

Also, they tech people can do their thing and set up a mobile app...that way, you could pick the play 'on the go'. I can't see a down side...at all.

[birddog]

Option play with trev, Ross and Perine in the backfield would dominate the "likes".

[BoulderSooner79]

Option play with trev, Ross and Perine in the backfield would dominate the "likes".

Until the caller gets banned and the "likes" get locked out for a while…


:highly_amused:

[stoops the eternal pimp]

In general, I agree, we have too many cooks in the kitchen. I wonder how much involvement Norvell really has with the game calls (on game day). I'd like to see Heupel on the sideline and Norvell in the box (for many reasons, but I think a sideline coordinator, that is also the QB coach, should have direct access to the QB). I am convinced the reason we see TOs getting burned on offense is because the process is too long. I think that comes from too many people involved.

Every pass play Norvell is involved..According to the former player.

And also, Bob is involved in offensive play calling a lot more than many would believe.

[swardboy]

Option play with trev, Ross and Perine in the backfield would dominate the "likes".

Add Ford and go to wishbone.

[birddog]

A wishboner!

[stoops the eternal pimp]

From my understanding from the former players, and I am getting more info on it to be certain.

Bedenaugh sends up a run play, Norvell sends up a pass play, Heupel makes the checks, makes a choice with the audible being the play not chosen..Or the Run-Pass option with the blocking schemes used. All calls go through Bob. He is actively involved in the offense.

And 2 of the former players say Bob is a very good offensive mind. No longer just a defensive guy.

[msteudem]

That's why the OC position at OU is almost a 'no-win' position. It's probably that way at every program.

When we used Neal to throw the TD against TCU (or WVU, can't remember), I thought "what a great call!". When we used him last week, I thought "what a terrible call!". The truth is, all calls that result in gains are "good", and the ones that don't work are "bad". That's just how we, as fans, view these things. 20/20 hindsight is great that way.

The big difference in this play in the KSU game vs WV is the fact that Neal was throwing the ball to TK in the WV game. The receiver in the KSU game was Shep. That does not work out for trick plays seeing that all eyes are going to be glued to Shep. Not to mention they were farther away from the end zone as well. All and all Neal shouldn't have thrown the ball.

[SoonerMarkVA]

In general, I agree, we have too many cooks in the kitchen. I wonder how much involvement Norvell really has with the game calls (on game day). I'd like to see Heupel on the sideline and Norvell in the box (for many reasons, but I think a sideline coordinator, that is also the QB coach, should have direct access to the QB). I am convinced the reason we see TOs getting burned on offense is because the process is too long. I think that comes from too many people involved.

THIS, 1000 times.

I've been saying from day 1, putting Heup in the box was a big mistake. Look at the history of our QB play under Stoops, and compare the play between years where Heup was on the sideline, and he wasn't. It's striking how much vastly better QB play is when Heup is there, in person, in the QB's ear, vs. not. I don't give a crap if the QB can talk to him on the headset. It is NOT the same!

[SoonerMarkVA]

Every pass play Norvell is involved..According to the former player.

And also, Bob is involved in offensive play calling a lot more than many would believe.

I certainly believe it. There has been a stubborn persistence to our offensive philosophy that spans very different OC's. Only one common thread I can think of.

[SoonerMarkVA]

Add Ford and go to wishbone.

Think about that. Perine FB, Ford/Ross HB in the 'bone? That's actually pretty awesome to consider.

[Jason White's Third Knee]

You, sir, are drunk.


I don't think that I am exaggerating when I say that it was the worst play call in the history of sports. A part of me died that day, for that was the day that I learned that there is no God.

An out route?! Out and up, fly pattern, curl, drag, slant... Anything but an out.

But that's just my opinion and nobody really gives a **** about that.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

You, sir, are drunk.


I don't think that I am exaggerating when I say that it was the worst play call in the history of sports. A part of me died that day, for that was the day that I learned that there is no God.

An out route?! Out and up, fly pattern, curl, drag, slant... Anything but an out.

But that's just my opinion and nobody really gives a **** about that.

I do..I care.

[KantoSooner]

From my understanding from the former players, and I am getting more info on it to be certain.

Bedenaugh sends up a run play, Norvell sends up a pass play, Heupel makes the checks, makes a choice with the audible being the play not chosen..Or the Run-Pass option with the blocking schemes used. All calls go through Bob. He is actively involved in the offense.

And 2 of the former players say Bob is a very good offensive mind. No longer just a defensive guy.

In your observation of successful college and NFL programs, how does this compare in complexity with the norm. And I'll tell you where I'm coming from.

At an early stage in my career, I dealt raw material plastics. It was a hilarious job: we'd buy literally thousands of tons of material and then get on the phones calling customers around the world and selling off smaller lots. The guys I worked with were bright, motivated and very high energy. But you simply didn't have time to engage in 'philosophical' consideration on each deal. So, what we did was to construct, three or four times a day, a 'box' of volume vs price vs timeframe. Inside that box, the trader could make a deal. Outside, you couldn't. It simplified decision making and let you concentrate on closing the deal.

I'm wondering if successful teams don't employ similar strategies to tamp down the background noise.

[BoulderSooner79]

The big difference in this play in the KSU game vs WV is the fact that Neal was throwing the ball to TK in the WV game. The receiver in the KSU game was Shep. That does not work out for trick plays seeing that all eyes are going to be glued to Shep. Not to mention they were farther away from the end zone as well. All and all Neal shouldn't have thrown the ball.

Except they were fooled and Shep was open. The guy that picked it drifted back late and only recovered because the throw was very weak. I agree he should not have thrown it because the DE stayed home on the reverse and challenged Neal.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

In your observation of successful college and NFL programs, how does this compare in complexity with the norm. And I'll tell you where I'm coming from.

At an early stage in my career, I dealt raw material plastics. It was a hilarious job: we'd buy literally thousands of tons of material and then get on the phones calling customers around the world and selling off smaller lots. The guys I worked with were bright, motivated and very high energy. But you simply didn't have time to engage in 'philosophical' consideration on each deal. So, what we did was to construct, three or four times a day, a 'box' of volume vs price vs timeframe. Inside that box, the trader could make a deal. Outside, you couldn't. It simplified decision making and let you concentrate on closing the deal.

I'm wondering if successful teams don't employ similar strategies to tamp down the background noise.

Others do it, I don't know that they do it like OU does.. I think you can tell a difference when a scripted drive is in place and you've got these guys trying to come up with the right call..

[cvsooner]

Except they were fooled and Shep was open. The guy that picked it drifted back late and only recovered because the throw was very weak. I agree he should not have thrown it because the DE stayed home on the reverse and challenged Neal.

There are five--yes, five--defenders around Shepard. It would have taken a Brady-esque throw to complete that pass. Neal would have been better off to eat the ball.

[BoulderSooner79]

There are five--yes, five--defenders around Shepard. It would have taken a Brady-esque throw to complete that pass. Neal would have been better off to eat the ball.

There were guys near the ball once that duck wobbled down, but none were close enough to make a play except the guy that caught it and he was recovering from being fooled. You won't get any argument from me that Neal should not have thrown it. I assume he has a decent arm since he is the one they have used twice on this play, but he wasn't able to display it. It's just an inherent risk in this type of play that things don't go as anticipated or practiced. I'm not even convinced he wasn't trying to throw it away, but should have gone to the sidelines instead of over the endzone. Poop happens.

[8timechamps]

You, sir, are drunk.


I don't think that I am exaggerating when I say that it was the worst play call in the history of sports. A part of me died that day, for that was the day that I learned that there is no God.

An out route?! Out and up, fly pattern, curl, drag, slant... Anything but an out.

But that's just my opinion and nobody really gives a **** about that.

Step into my tree of trust...the trust tree. It'll make you feel better.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Think about that. Perine FB, Ford/Ross HB in the 'bone? That's actually pretty awesome to consider.

No. Perine is better than Ford and Ross combined. If we're talking option fantasies, it would be Perine starting in an I-option attack the way Nebraska won with in the 90s.

[Tear Down This Wall]

This is why this whole discussion is pointless...

...Kansas State had a safety playing over the top on that play. There is no tight end on that side of the field. Didn't Knight see the safety before the snap?

What did he think the safety standing at the 10 was doing? He was nowhere near the line of scrimmage, so he wasn't blitzing. Unless there was a run fake, he wasn't coming up. Even if Knight had pump faked - and, then, managed to complete the pass - the safety had plenty of angle to tackle Neal, probably at about the 20-25 yard line.

Three years Knight has been here, and that's his read on that safety in that defense? A safety not creeping up to fake a blitz, or coming into the box to play the run?

Assuming the K-State cornerback knows the coverage that was called for the play, he knew he'd have safety help; therefore, it wasn't a gamble at all for him to jump the route. He knew help was behind him should there be a pass play.

Look at the blocking on the play as well. Dimitri Flowers pulls over and take out the K-State end. Had the option been a run, Perine would have only had the safety to beat...assuming Neal also blocks the corner...and, yes, I know that is a lot to assume in Neal's recognition as well.

Horrible. A damn good block by Flowers, though; blew up the K-State end. Offensive line did a great job there. But, Knight had the play screwed up from the pre-snap read of the defense.



http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=11720595

[OUmillenium]

Every pass play Norvell is involved..According to the former player.

And also, Bob is involved in offensive play calling a lot more than many would believe.

This is what I have been thinking for years.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

No. Perine is better than Ford and Ross combined. If we're talking option fantasies, it would be Perine starting in an I-option attack the way Nebraska won with in the 90s.

This is hilarious.

[PujolsFan]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=11720595

Watching this play I've got to believe had we run Neal on an Out/Up route down the sidelines this would've been a 97 yard TD. The KSU Safety #22 was 10-15 yards inside where Neal would've caught the ball. The Corner who jumped the route had no chance had TK even hinted at a pump fake. Of course if TK would've faked a run and then hit Neal streaking down the sidelines it would've been another homerun play. Oh well... live and learn I hope.

[8timechamps]

This is why this whole discussion is pointless...

...Kansas State had a safety playing over the top on that play. There is no tight end on that side of the field. Didn't Knight see the safety before the snap?

What did he think the safety standing at the 10 was doing? He was nowhere near the line of scrimmage, so he wasn't blitzing. Unless there was a run fake, he wasn't coming up. Even if Knight had pump faked - and, then, managed to complete the pass - the safety had plenty of angle to tackle Neal, probably at about the 20-25 yard line.

Three years Knight has been here, and that's his read on that safety in that defense? A safety not creeping up to fake a blitz, or coming into the box to play the run?

Assuming the K-State cornerback knows the coverage that was called for the play, he knew he'd have safety help; therefore, it wasn't a gamble at all for him to jump the route. He knew help was behind him should there be a pass play.

Look at the blocking on the play as well. Dimitri Flowers pulls over and take out the K-State end. Had the option been a run, Perine would have only had the safety to beat...assuming Neal also blocks the corner...and, yes, I know that is a lot to assume in Neal's recognition as well.

Horrible. A damn good block by Flowers, though; blew up the K-State end. Offensive line did a great job there. But, Knight had the play screwed up from the pre-snap read of the defense.



http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=11720595

No way. The safety committed inside at the snap, there's no way he's recovers and gains 40 yards before Neal releases on the go. The safety was playing the run almost from the start, he was not in the box pre-snap because Snyder wanted to show cover.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Heh. Not sure how to get the original size photo on here, it's a lot more clear.

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1032x581q90/674/zgoez0.jpg

[cvsooner]

One factor on this play that is troubling is the distance for the throw to Neal's outside shoulder is way too far. Any decent CB has the opportunity to jump the route and snag it or at least break it up. I think we're all in agreement this is not a good play in this situation. Maybe Neal is too far over? Looks like he's about 15 yards wide. Some of this I think almost has to be on Neal.

[8timechamps]

Heh. Not sure how to get the original size photo on here, it's a lot more clear.

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1032x581q90/674/zgoez0.jpg

If you watch the play (on YouTube), you can see the safety (22) commit inside at the snap. I'd say that's what TK read when he threw it to Neal, but he doesn't take enough to time to read anything. From that view, you can see the corner (7) playing off (he did a good job disguising his intentions). Still a bad throw.

EDIT: After looking at that picture, you can see we have KSU outnumbered on the left side of the line. Even if the safety spins down, Perine would be one-on-one with him, would have been at least a positive gain and gotten us out of the endzone.

[8timechamps]

One factor on this play that is troubling is the distance for the throw to Neal's outside shoulder is way too far. Any decent CB has the opportunity to jump the route and snag it or at least break it up. I think we're all in agreement this is not a good play in this situation. Maybe Neal is too far over? Looks like he's about 15 yards wide. Some of this I think almost has to be on Neal.

I'd have to compare that play to another time we ran it, but Neal looks to be in the correct position. Neal didn't make the greatest effort to get back to the ball, but I can't put much (if any) of the blame on him. He did kinda round his route off, but the ball was already in the air.

[aurorasooner]

If you sit TK, then we probably don't have the drive all the way down the field for a TD that happened right after that play.Maybe, maybe not, but C. Thomas and the whole O team did a pretty good job of moving the ball right down the field ~80 yards for 6 after the TK injury.
I don't know if this was because our whole offensive team decided that they'd better step up and do their job and not wait for their teammate to make a play or whether it short-circuited this ridiculous micromanagement procedure from the top of just calling a play, and it showed positive results.
This 4 coach play-calling procedure, if true, imo, is the most ridiculous OU coaching event that I've heard about since the Boo Blake change-the-QB-every-week fiasco. If it is true though, it sure explains a lot of this getting a play called in a timely manner cluster*&^%.
I saw these somewhere, and it does explain some of the woes we've had on the D side for the season and in this game, as well.

"Oklahoma has allowed the most receptions (20) and touchdowns (7) on passes thrown 15 yards or longer in the Big 12. The Sooners, however, lead the conference in interceptions on such passes (4)", and it just confirms that if we don't get any picks, we're screwed.

"Jake Waters completed 7-of-9 passes on first down Saturday"

"Kansas State had 175 rushing yards on 28 designed runs, its highest average (6.3) in a game this season and almost 3 more yards than what Oklahoma allowed entering the game (3.9).

Good discussion thread with some valid posts except for the usual.

[ashley]

The out to the wide side of the field from that place on the field was a horrible call.

[8timechamps]

The out to the wide side of the field from that place on the field was a horrible call.

Unless it worked, then it would have been a "great" call, right?

[cvsooner]

Unless it worked, then it would have been a "great" call, right?

Of course. Coaches walk a fine line between genius and moron status. Everyone laments the conservative Bob Stoops in favor of the Riverboat Gambler but man, that has backfired too many times.

[8timechamps]

Of course. Coaches walk a fine line between genius and moron status. Everyone laments the conservative Bob Stoops in favor of the Riverboat Gambler but man, that has backfired too many times.

Exactly. I was talking to a buddy yesterday, and we were having the conversation about this play and he said "If TK keeps the ball and while running out of the endzone...gets stripped, and KSU recovers the ball in the EZ for a touchdown, then everyone is pissed that Heupel called a QB run...it's a lose/lose situation". Again, 20/20 hindsight.

Heupel is under the microscope right now (and I'm not arguing he shouldn't be there), but any mistakes (real or perceived) is going to magnified, and he isn't going to be given the benefit of the doubt from the "Fire Heupel" crowd.

[Tear Down This Wall]

If you watch the play (on YouTube), you can see the safety (22) commit inside at the snap. I'd say that's what TK read when he threw it to Neal, but he doesn't take enough to time to read anything. From that view, you can see the corner (7) playing off (he did a good job disguising his intentions). Still a bad throw.

EDIT: After looking at that picture, you can see we have KSU outnumbered on the left side of the line. Even if the safety spins down, Perine would be one-on-one with him, would have been at least a positive gain and gotten us out of the endzone.

Knight didn't read anything. He immediately turned to his left, looked straight at Neal, and threw the ball.

McDaniel knew he had deep help, stepped in front of the pass, and scored the easiest touchdown in his life.

The only thing that surprises me is that McDaniel didn't drop the ball out of pure shock alone.

[Tear Down This Wall]

No way. The safety committed inside at the snap, there's no way he's recovers and gains 40 yards before Neal releases on the go. The safety was playing the run almost from the start, he was not in the box pre-snap because Snyder wanted to show cover.

The safety did not commit to the run. He had his eyes on Knight the whole time, he had already made a step toward the receiver before Knight even let the ball go.

[Tear Down This Wall]

If you watch the play (on YouTube), you can see the safety (22) commit inside at the snap. I'd say that's what TK read when he threw it to Neal, but he doesn't take enough to time to read anything. From that view, you can see the corner (7) playing off (he did a good job disguising his intentions). Still a bad throw.

EDIT: After looking at that picture, you can see we have KSU outnumbered on the left side of the line. Even if the safety spins down, Perine would be one-on-one with him, would have been at least a positive gain and gotten us out of the endzone.

Yes. That's why I pointed out Flowers' block on that play. He blew up the end, Tyson had already crushed the LB, and Shead had the DT. The only player remaining on that side was the safety playing back in coverage.

Assuming the safety played the run, you are still looking at 240+ Perine against what looks to be about a 195 pound safety. Surely, Perine trucks him for 4 or 5 yards...IF Neal blocks the corner to keep him out of the play.

[BoulderSooner79]

One thing that is true in the situation is that execution is critical because there is no safe play. That's why coaches choose to try to punt deep instead of attempting a long field goal and it worked out for KSU in this case. I've seen just about every play tried from down there result in disaster. Things get rushed and the defense plays aggressive changing normal risk equation.

- QB sneak - QB fumbles the snap
- RB dive play - TFL for safety, fumbled handoff
- pitch play - TFL for safety
- Out route - need I say it?
- Any passing play - holding in end zone for safety
- Any option play - wrong decision, bad things

Conclusion: don't get pinned deep. Corollary: pinned the other guy deep

[8timechamps]

The safety did not commit to the run. He had his eyes on Knight the whole time, he had already made a step toward the receiver before Knight even let the ball go.

We'll agree to disagree. The safety definitely commits inside, and there's no way he was going to recover in time to help the corner. The corner jumped the route on his own, and it paid off.

[8timechamps]

One thing that is true in the situation is that execution is critical because there is no safe play. That's why coaches choose to try to punt deep instead of attempting a long field goal and it worked out for KSU in this case. I've seen just about every play tried from down there result in disaster. Things get rushed and the defense plays aggressive changing normal risk equation.

- QB sneak - QB fumbles the snap
- RB dive play - TFL for safety, fumbled handoff
- pitch play - TFL for safety
- Out route - need I say it?
- Any passing play - holding in end zone for safety
- Any option play - wrong decision, bad things

Conclusion: don't get pinned deep. Corollary: pinned the other guy deep

Yep, that pretty much sums it up. The best play is to not be in that situation.

Speaking of punts, I've noticed we rarely block anyone on the punt. I don't mean the gunners, I mean anyone. It looks like we play punt safe 99% of the time. I don't know if Stoops is that worried about a fake punt, or worried about another punt off the leg of our own guys, but it's rare that we a) go after a kick, or b) set up a punt return.

[Jason White's Third Knee]

The out to the wide side of the field from that place on the field was a horrible call.

Unless it worked, then it would have been a "great" call, right?

Right. But it only would have worked had a different route been run. That's all I'm saying. If we are judging one play only, no way do I call or throw an out. I don't know which guy called it. I reserve the right to boo that call.


BOOOOOO!!!!!!

[cvsooner]

Yep, that pretty much sums it up. The best play is to not be in that situation.

Speaking of punts, I've noticed we rarely block anyone on the punt. I don't mean the gunners, I mean anyone. It looks like we play punt safe 99% of the time. I don't know if Stoops is that worried about a fake punt, or worried about another punt off the leg of our own guys, but it's rare that we a) go after a kick, or b) set up a punt return.

It would help if we had a punt returner. Apparently we don't.

[8timechamps]

Right. But it only would have worked had a different route been run. That's all I'm saying. If we are judging one play only, no way do I call or throw an out. I don't know which guy called it. I reserve the right to boo that call.


BOOOOOO!!!!!!

You, my friend, reserve the right to boo any call you don't like.

Seriously though, the fact that the route in question was one of several options should at least lower your frustration. I've see out routes thrown in that situation that worked fine. I'm not going to argue that there were less risky plays that could have been called, because there were. I just don't think Heupel should get the blame when a player makes a mistake/fails to execute.

[8timechamps]

It would help if we had a punt returner. Apparently we don't.

I hate the idea of Shepard being our returner. Every time the opposing kicker punts the ball, I hope for a) a kick out of bounds, or b) a fair catch. As pivotal as Shep is to our offense...(I'll leave the end of that sentence unsaid, but I think you know what I'm saying).

[BoulderSooner79]

The only good thing about this loss before a bye week is that we have another full week to analyze this play.

I think it was a good call.

[aero]

Knight didn't read anything. He immediately turned to his left, looked straight at Neal, and threw the ball.

McDaniel knew he had deep help, stepped in front of the pass, and scored the easiest touchdown in his life.

The only thing that surprises me is that McDaniel didn't drop the ball out of pure shock alone.

I'm in total agreement with TDTW. TK didn't appear to read anything. The corner didn't appear to commit inside. It looks like he may have not thought Neal was going to curl out but he didn't have to recover much because the 70 yard lateral pass to the outside shoulder gave him plenty of time to make the easy pick on a difficult as well as poor pass. Either way you chop it, absolutely horrendous call from the 1 yard line. Maybe if we'd been on the left hash and maybe not a 2 yard out. That's why you see teams run from there. You may not get a first down but hopefully you get a little room to punt and live another day. Even a pump fake and throw it downfield. At least you're going vertical with less negatives. Catch for a first down. Overthrown or OB. Maybe even take it for 6. Even an INT downfield is better than what happened. And under those circumstances I'd say the probability of the same result is fairly high. And I place that entirely on whoever called that play. Any boob off the street can call wrong plays at the wrong time. These guys are well payed professional coaches and are supposed to and should know what they're doing. To me, it's inexcusable.

[8timechamps]

I'm in total agreement with TDTW. TK didn't appear to read anything. The corner didn't appear to commit inside. It looks like he may have not thought Neal was going to curl out but he didn't have to recover much because the 70 yard lateral pass to the outside shoulder gave him plenty of time to make the easy pick on a difficult as well as poor pass. Either way you chop it, absolutely horrendous call from the 1 yard line. Maybe if we'd been on the left hash and maybe not a 2 yard out. That's why you see teams run from there. You may not get a first down but hopefully you get a little room to punt and live another day. Even a pump fake and throw it downfield. At least you're going vertical with less negatives. Catch for a first down. Overthrown or OB. Maybe even take it for 6. Even an INT downfield is better than what happened. And under those circumstances I'd say the probability of the same result is fairly high. And I place that entirely on whoever called that play. Any boob off the street can call wrong plays at the wrong time. These guys are well payed professional coaches and are supposed to and should know what they're doing. To me, it's inexcusable.

No, TK didn't read anything (I think I mentioned that in my original post, but if not, I did in one of the many in this thread). He had made his decision before the snap ever happened.

I wasn't saying the corner committed inside, he didn't. The corner was going to press the route the whole time (he just did a good job selling soft coverage before the snap). It's the safety that commits inside. It's not drastic, he doesn't spin down early or anything, but as soon as the ball is snapped, he sort of freezes, and shifts a little inside. It was enough that had a go route been called, he would never have been able to recover to help on that side.

This mistake started when Knight predetermined his target. The play calls for him to read the defense before making a decision, he never did that. At that point, it's not the call that's bad, it's the execution.

There are plenty of plays throughout the season that one could look at and say "that was just a terrible play call". For the life of me, I don't know how people can put this one on Heupel.

Let me be clear, I'm not trying to defend JH. Everyone's entitled to their opinion of him, but when I first started reading comments blaming him for this call, my first thought was "people must not understand what the play call was", or "people think the play call was just an out route for Neal". There's a lot more going on here than just an out route.

If TK had handed the ball off to Perine on a dive, and when Perine got the ball he made the decision to take it wide and he got stuffed for a safety, would it be a bad play call? No, it would be bad execution. There's little difference between the two.

[aero]

Sorry. We'll agree to disagree. One of the most worstest play calls i can remember. I don't want an average, vanilla, limited play caller. I want someone who can quickly assess the flow of the game, the current situation, assess probabilities, adapt to changes, and know the ability of his personnel to execute given plays. I want a chess master, not a checkers novice. That play appeared to have been pulled from the bowels of a novice. "Well, gee... we're on the 1..... well... I remember seeing this team one time throw a quick out that totally fooled the other team. Ya! I'll try that!" ... that's what I envision when I see that play. That was NEVER going to be a quick anything. If Perrine had run 3 times up the gut in that situation it would have been understandable. That's why you see it so often. Good coaches try to limit the mistakes and play the odds. Play sound football. Protect the football. Play for field position. Pretty basic understanding. Don't make mistakes. 3 times up the gut on your opponents 1 with them stacking the line is poor play calling but not when you're on your 1. Again.... right hash, 1 yard line, difficult long throw, poor execution, high risk. Yes, it's easy to call that as a mistake afterwards but the problem is whoever made the call should have had the knowledge and experience to know that wasn't a good choice. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of much more qualified people than me that would agree.

[BoulderSooner79]

Sorry. We'll agree to disagree. One of the most worstest play calls i can remember. I don't want an average, vanilla, limited play caller. I want someone who can quickly assess the flow of the game, the current situation, assess probabilities, adapt to changes, and know the ability of his personnel to execute given plays. I want a chess master, not a checkers novice. That play appeared to have been pulled from the bowels of a novice. "Well, gee... we're on the 1..... well... I remember seeing this team one time throw a quick out that totally fooled the other team. Ya! I'll try that!" ... that's what I envision when I see that play. That was NEVER going to be a quick anything. If Perrine had run 3 times up the gut in that situation it would have been understandable. That's why you see it so often. Good coaches try to limit the mistakes and play the odds. Play sound football. Protect the football. Play for field position. Pretty basic understanding. Don't make mistakes. 3 times up the gut on your opponents 1 with them stacking the line is poor play calling but not when you're on your 1. Again.... right hash, 1 yard line, difficult long throw, poor execution, high risk. Yes, it's easy to call that as a mistake afterwards but the problem is whoever made the call should have had the knowledge and experience to know that wasn't a good choice. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of much more qualified people than me that would agree.

You're concentrating on the minutiae when you must look at the situation holistically. It was a fine play call in that context.

[Jason White's Third Knee]

Sorry. We'll agree to disagree. One of the most worstest play calls i can remember. I don't want an average, vanilla, limited play caller. I want someone who can quickly assess the flow of the game, the current situation, assess probabilities, adapt to changes, and know the ability of his personnel to execute given plays. I want a chess master, not a checkers novice. That play appeared to have been pulled from the bowels of a novice. "Well, gee... we're on the 1..... well... I remember seeing this team one time throw a quick out that totally fooled the other team. Ya! I'll try that!" ... that's what I envision when I see that play. That was NEVER going to be a quick anything. If Perrine had run 3 times up the gut in that situation it would have been understandable. That's why you see it so often. Good coaches try to limit the mistakes and play the odds. Play sound football. Protect the football. Play for field position. Pretty basic understanding. Don't make mistakes. 3 times up the gut on your opponents 1 with them stacking the line is poor play calling but not when you're on your 1. Again.... right hash, 1 yard line, difficult long throw, poor execution, high risk. Yes, it's easy to call that as a mistake afterwards but the problem is whoever made the call should have had the knowledge and experience to know that wasn't a good choice. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of much more qualified people than me that would agree.

You're concentrating on the minutiae when you must look at the situation holistically. It was a fine play call in that context.


I just can't understand why anyone would think that the out is a good idea in that situation. Sure, it was an option and should have been read, but the route is so dangerous given the hash, field position and so forth. I will need therapy before I say that the route should have been a part of this play.

[aero]

I just can't understand why anyone would think that the out is a good idea in that situation. Sure, it was an option and should have been read, but the route is so dangerous given the hash, field position and so forth. I will need therapy before I say that the route should have been a part of this play.

Me too. That option shouldn't have been given. The OC shouldn't put the players in that position to make a decision which is a horrible play. I don't fault the player as much as the OC.

[8timechamps]

I just can't understand why anyone would think that the out is a good idea in that situation. Sure, it was an option and should have been read, but the route is so dangerous given the hash, field position and so forth. I will need therapy before I say that the route should have been a part of this play.


Me too. That option shouldn't have been given. The OC shouldn't put the players in that position to make a decision which is a horrible play. I don't fault the player as much as the OC.

Okay, I watched very closely today, to see when the out route (by itself) was run (in the NFL). More specifically, from the 5 yard line and in...I counted 5 separate times that the offense ran a route tree that consisted of an out route to the opposite side of the field. All but one of those went for positive gains (including one from the endzone). Only one was incomplete.

Conversely, in two separate games, the out route was run at mid-field, and on two occasions was returned for touchdowns. (Jacksonville was one, I can't remember the other).

The point is the play is run at the NFL level, by seasoned NFL coordinators. If it's just a "trick" or "gee, let's try this" kind of play, someone should tell those coaches.

It was a bad play by Knight that caused the pick 6. So, I'll ask this: had Knight handed the ball instead of throwing, and Perine gets hit and fumbles, and KSU recovers for a TD, is that a "bad call" too? Seriously, I guess I don't see how the OC (of any team) can be at fault for a player's failure to execute.

[tulsaoilerfan]

Good play if you have an NFL QB on your roster

[aero]

Pointless arguing about it. Some think it was a super-duper, Bill Walsh-like genius play. Myself and others think otherwise. I really could care less at this point because while we're talking about this one play, in actuality (IMO), it's just indicative of some of the anemic play calling that's been going on for a while now. I thought this team actually had a chance to compete for a title this year but once again NOT. And it really seems we might even have the players. I'm thinking it's the coaching staff that is the problem. And I'm sure there are plenty here that think this staff is NFL caliber. That's their right. This years toast already. I'm over it. I'll always pull for OU but I'm not falling for the hype anymore. We'll change players but I'm not thinking the results are going to be different.

[aero]

[/COLOR]
It was a bad play by Knight that caused the pick 6. So, I'll ask this: had Knight handed the ball instead of throwing, and Perine gets hit and fumbles, and KSU recovers for a TD, is that a "bad call" too? Seriously, I guess I don't see how the OC (of any team) can be at fault for a player's failure to execute.[/COLOR]

You're comparing 2 totally separate things. A fumble isn't a called play. I didn't see where TK made that bad of a throw. Tell me how he could have thrown it better and caused a different outcome? So where was TK's error? In his read? In the fact he immediately turned and threw? I'd say yes to both. And I'd say from the right hash, on the 1 yard line, with TK's arm, the OC shouldn't have given him that option. You have your opinion, I have mine. Nothing will ever convince me that wasn't a terrible call.

[8timechamps]

Pointless arguing about it. Some think it was a super-duper, Bill Walsh-like genius play. Myself and others think otherwise. I really could care less at this point because while we're talking about this one play, in actuality (IMO), it's just indicative of some of the anemic play calling that's been going on for a while now. I thought this team actually had a chance to compete for a title this year but once again NOT. And it really seems we might even have the players. I'm thinking it's the coaching staff that is the problem. And I'm sure there are plenty here that think this staff is NFL caliber. That's their right. This years toast already. I'm over it. I'll always pull for OU but I'm not falling for the hype anymore. We'll change players but I'm not thinking the results are going to be different.

Yeah, I agree...damn bye-week.

This team is kind of at a make or break point. Making the playoffs is almost out of the question, the conference title is realistic, but not by much. If this team want's to finish the season, proving they are anywhere near as good as we all thought, then it starts this week with ISU.

The two loses (both should have and could have been wins) were by 5 point, to two teams that look to be rolling through the rest of their competition. I'm not ready to throw the towel in (not that I ever do), but it's time to start making a statement if they want to accomplish any of their goals.

[aero]

Yes, I hate bye weeks. Oh well, I'm getting over it but dayum, I sure had high hopes this year. And it's even tougher knowing we could easily still be undefeated. I feel like we should have won the 2 we lost. But then again we somehow got a win over UT when that was probably our worst game. I just find myself saying dammit everytime I think about my team since that TCU game.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I'm in total agreement with TDTW. TK didn't appear to read anything. The corner didn't appear to commit inside. It looks like he may have not thought Neal was going to curl out but he didn't have to recover much because the 70 yard lateral pass to the outside shoulder gave him plenty of time to make the easy pick on a difficult as well as poor pass. Either way you chop it, absolutely horrendous call from the 1 yard line. Maybe if we'd been on the left hash and maybe not a 2 yard out. That's why you see teams run from there. You may not get a first down but hopefully you get a little room to punt and live another day. Even a pump fake and throw it downfield. At least you're going vertical with less negatives. Catch for a first down. Overthrown or OB. Maybe even take it for 6. Even an INT downfield is better than what happened. And under those circumstances I'd say the probability of the same result is fairly high. And I place that entirely on whoever called that play. Any boob off the street can call wrong plays at the wrong time. These guys are well payed professional coaches and are supposed to and should know what they're doing. To me, it's inexcusable.

With Knight, the overthrow out of bounds and throw behind the receiver are just as good odds, and probably better, than him actually completing it.

As it was, because he has no arm strength, he threw the ball behind the receiver, weakly, into a coverage with a safety over the top. The argument about the safety is moot because the corner knew the coverage called, so he knew he could jump the route and get away with it.

Although, the more you watch the clip, the more ridiculous it becomes to keep saying he "jumped" it. I mean, Neal had barely turned around. The corner, really, had very little work to do on that one.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I just can't understand why anyone would think that the out is a good idea in that situation. Sure, it was an option and should have been read, but the route is so dangerous given the hash, field position and so forth. I will need therapy before I say that the route should have been a part of this play.

The problem is the coaching staff still not understanding the limitations of Knight. It's as though all they see of Knight is the Cotton Bowl practice where he played Johnny Manziel and the Sugar Bowl game.

Someone needs to alert them that those are, really, the exception to the rule with Knight.

Anyway, now that we'll be battling for a Holiday Bowl or Sun Bowl spot, spring and the eligibility of Baker Mayfield can't get here soon enough.

[#8soon]

The problem is the coaching staff still not understanding the limitations of Knight. It's as though all they see of Knight is the Cotton Bowl practice where he played Johnny Manziel and the Sugar Bowl game.

Someone needs to alert them that those are, really, the exception to the rule with Knight.

Anyway, now that we'll be battling for a Holiday Bowl or Sun Bowl spot, spring and the eligibility of Baker Mayfield can't get here soon enough.

Mayfield?? LOL 5'11 Baker can't even see over our line!

[BoulderSooner79]

With Knight, the overthrow out of bounds and throw behind the receiver are just as good odds, and probably better, than him actually completing it.

As it was, because he has no arm strength, he threw the ball behind the receiver, weakly, into a coverage with a safety over the top.

You've claimed this before, but I don't see it. Knight does not have a weak arm regardless of this one throw. All it takes is one example of a strong throw to show the arm is fine and that has happened plenty of times. I'm not saying he has a proverbial cannon, but his problem is accuracy or at least consistency with accuracy. We can speculate forever (or at least 2 weeks) on this one play, but I think he was nervous dropping into the endzone and just rushed everything. He rushed his decision, rushed his read (or didn't read at all) and rushed the throw which led to a breakdown of mechanics and a weak throw. Had he just been calm in the pocket, the worst that would have happened was an incomplete pass. Had he been heads-up, he could have ad-libbed a positive play. These things happen with young QBs. And yes, he's still "young" in terms of number of starts. He's getting close to that threshold of becoming "experienced" which hopefully will show in the remaining games this year. He'll definitely enter next season with expectations of being experienced.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I would like to know how "arm strength" is measured by the poster..

[KantoSooner]

I have seen Knight throw across his body without his feet set (because he was running) and connect across the field. No way is his arm strength wanting. Decision making (what he's allowed of it)? Questionable many times. Vision? Accuracy? Mechanics? Many issues with the guy's game. But I don't see arm strength being one of them.

[BoulderSooner79]

I would like to know how "arm strength" is measured by the poster..

My definition is seeing a throw that covers a good distance without much arc in the trajectory.

[Salt City Sooner]

I would like to know how "arm strength" is measured by the poster..
x2. If you want to talk OU QB's (or ex in this case) Kendal Thompson has a weak arm. Knight most certainly does not.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I would like to know how "arm strength" is measured by the poster..

Quarterbacks who can "fit the ball into a tight window" are the ones with quick, strong releases. There are very few of them on the planet.

So, there's no shame in not being one IF you and your coaches go ahead and admit it to themselves, then gameplan accordingly.

That play they had called - a quick out into that type of coverage...it's just not a play Knight can make. There's no shame in that. Just don't call it. That's not ever going to be his strength, so take it out of the playbook when Knight is in the game.

[Tear Down This Wall]

My definition is seeing a throw that covers a good distance without much arc in the trajectory.

That's part of it. Think about the TD he threw to Shepherd against Texas. Although wide open, Shepherd had to wait for it, come back, and "cradle" catch it. With a quicker release, he's hit in stride. It makes no difference on that play because Texas' secondary had screwed up the coverage. But, it's just an example of what we're discussing.

[BoulderSooner79]

That's part of it. Think about the TD he threw to Shepherd against Texas. Although wide open, Shepherd had to wait for it, come back, and "cradle" catch it. With a quicker release, he's hit in stride. It makes no difference on that play because Texas' secondary had screwed up the coverage. But, it's just an example of what we're discussing.

That still looks like accuracy to me. He hasn't hit many receivers in stride on longer throws and Shep has had to wait for them. He has thrown a few lasers on seam routes and all it takes is one to prove he can.