The Terrorists Won

[SicEmBaylor]

I'm going to state an uncomfortable truth on this, the anniversary of 9/11. They won. I don't mean on the battlefield going toe to toe with American forces. I'm not even referring to the rise of ISIS in Iraq or our inability to fully root out Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan.
They beat us here at home. They beat us by manipulating us into expanding the size and scope of our government into every minute segment of our lives. They beat us the moment we passed the Patriot Act. They beat us the moment we created the Department of Homeland Security. They beat us the moment we created the TSA. They beat us the moment we allowed military-grade equipment and tactics to be used by civilian police forces under the auspices of "fighting terror." They beat us the moment we allowed the NSA unfettered access to our digital private lives. They beat us the moment we became comfortable with the sacrifice of our civil liberties for so-called security.

We, ourselves, have done more damage to our freedoms and liberties than Al-Qaeda or ISIS could have done on their own if they tried for the next 200 years. We did their job for them, and we did it better than they ever could have. Never forget 9/11 -- for both the damage done to us and the damage done to ourselves.

[Sooner8th]

I'm going to state an uncomfortable truth on this, the anniversary of 9/11. They won. I don't mean on the battlefield going toe to toe with American forces. I'm not even referring to the rise of ISIS in Iraq or our inability to fully root out Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan.
They beat us here at home. They beat us by manipulating us into expanding the size and scope of our government into every minute segment of our lives. They beat us the moment we passed the Patriot Act. They beat us the moment we created the Department of Homeland Defense. They beat us the moment we created the TSA. They beat us the moment we allowed military-grade equipment and tactics to be used by civilian police forces under the auspices of "fighting terror." They beat us the moment we allowed the NSA unfettered access to our digital private lives. They beat us the moment we became comfortable with the sacrifice of our civil liberties for so-called security.

We, ourselves, have done more damage to our freedoms and liberties than Al-Qaeda or ISIS could have done on their own if they tried for the next 200 years. We did their job for them, and we did it better than they ever could have. Never forget 9/11 -- for both the damage done to us and the damage done to ourselves.

I don't think it is uncomfortable to say the truth. We squandered an opportunity to take care of our business, get the guys who attacked us and let would-be terrorists know we will kill you and just not decide to do something else. Not to mention the liberties we lost at home.

[FaninAma]

I'm going to state an uncomfortable truth on this, the anniversary of 9/11. They won. I don't mean on the battlefield going toe to toe with American forces. I'm not even referring to the rise of ISIS in Iraq or our inability to fully root out Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan.
They beat us here at home. They beat us by manipulating us into expanding the size and scope of our government into every minute segment of our lives. They beat us the moment we passed the Patriot Act. They beat us the moment we created the Department of Homeland Security. They beat us the moment we created the TSA. They beat us the moment we allowed military-grade equipment and tactics to be used by civilian police forces under the auspices of "fighting terror." They beat us the moment we allowed the NSA unfettered access to our digital private lives. They beat us the moment we became comfortable with the sacrifice of our civil liberties for so-called security.

We, ourselves, have done more damage to our freedoms and liberties than Al-Qaeda or ISIS could have done on their own if they tried for the next 200 years. We did their job for them, and we did it better than they ever could have. Never forget 9/11 -- for both the damage done to us and the damage done to ourselves.

Spot on.

[FaninAma]

I don't think it is uncomfortable to say the truth. We squandered an opportunity to take care of our business, get the guys who attacked us and let would-be terrorists know we will kill you and just not decide to do something else. Not to mention the liberties we lost at home.
And the Obama administration had nothing to do with the ongoing erosion of our civil liberties......right?

Try to reply without bringing up the Bush administration. Bush was a dumbass. Obama is as bad or worse.

[dwarthog]

And the Obama administration had nothing to do with the ongoing erosion of our civil liberties......right?

Try to reply without bringing up the Bush administration. Bush was a dumbass. Obama is as bad or worse.

I'm sure he meant the opportunities Clinton squandered while he was president.

[olevetonahill]

I agree Sic. We need our Representatives to stand up and fight to repeal that ****in Patriot Act ****.

[Sooner8th]

And the Obama administration had nothing to do with the ongoing erosion of our civil liberties......right?

Try to reply without bringing up the Bush administration. Bush was a dumbass. Obama is as bad or worse.

Conservatives whine and complain about "just blame bush" when your go to is bush was a dumbass - but obama is worse! And your party has done everything in it power over the last five and a half years to make it true. Your party is following the lead of the real leader of your party - rush limbaugh - I WANT AMERICA TO FAIL! USE EVERY LEGISLATIVE TACIC TO RUIN OBAMA'S AGENDA. They troops got into goose lock step and did as told.

There is not a area that obama isn't kicking dubya's ***. Where do you think ISIS came from? THE INSURGENCY IN IRAQ!!!! We are still dealing with the total complete and utter failure of the last administration at home and abroad. Bush II will go down as one of the worst presidents in our history and obama will fair much better, much much better.

[dwarthog]

Conservatives whine and complain about "just blame bush" when your go to is bush was a dumbass - but obama is worse! And your party has done everything in it power over the last five and a half years to make it true. Your party is following the lead of the real leader of your party - rush limbaugh - I WANT AMERICA TO FAIL! USE EVERY LEGISLATIVE TACIC TO RUIN OBAMA'S AGENDA. They troops got into goose lock step and did as told.

There is not a area that obama isn't kicking dubya's ***. Where do you think ISIS came from? THE INSURGENCY IN IRAQ!!!! We are still dealing with the total complete and utter failure of the last administration at home and abroad. Bush II will go down as one of the worst presidents in our history and obama will fair much better, much much better.

Good to see you starting off the day being wrong on yet another topic.

[Sooner8th]

Good to see you starting off the day being wrong on yet another topic.

You don't know where ISIS came from? Still cleaning up the bush messes six years later.

[dwarthog]

You don't know where ISIS came from? Still cleaning up the bush messes six years later.

What?

Obama declared victory on that deal in 2012. Done and dusted, his promise fulfilled!

You saying he was wrong and there is now an issue in Iraq?

[Sooner8th]

What?

Obama declared victory on that deal in 2012. Done and dusted, his promise fulfilled!

You saying he was wrong and there is now an issue in Iraq?

What the hell does that have to do with ISIS and the mess bush brought us?

The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIS) used to have a different name: al Qaeda in Iraq.

http://www.vox.com/cards/things-about-isis-you-need-to-know/what-is-isis

BUSH'S MESS! How long did you want us to stay in Iraq? Why didn't bush take care of it? We were in there for 5 and a half years. No plan, poor decisions, giving raise to the the insurgents in iraq who became ISIS.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Clinton showed the democrats and their media just how powerful the media is, and that they can get away with practically anything. We are in VERY bad straits now, greatly damaged from our previous condition.

[Sooner8th]

Clinton showed the democrats and their media just how powerful the media is, and that they can get away with practically anything. We are in VERY bad straits now, greatly damaged from our previous condition.

What the hell does bill clinton have to do with this? WOW - this is completely on BUSH!

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

What the hell does bill clinton have to do with this? WOW - this is completely on BUSH!Why do you waste your time here? There's a job just waiting for you in the Media, or Public Education. Heck, maybe even in Entertainment, or Politics itself.

[Sooner8th]

Why do you waste your time here? There's a job just waiting for you in the Media, or Public Education. Heck, maybe even in Entertainment, or Politics itself.


It's a simple question - what does bill cinton have to do with it? Did you listen to rush today and he somehow got bill into it?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

It's a simple question - what does bill cinton have to do with it? Did you listen to rush today and he somehow got bill into it?I would bet you know what the real fundamental reasons are that our country has gone down so much. The stupid card, since it's so predictable and boring, isn't doing you much good here, as far as your influencing agenda goes. Really, why waste your time here. Move on to more fertile grounds.

[Sooner8th]

I would bet you know what the real fundamental reasons are that our country has gone down so much. The stupid card, since it's so predictable and boring, isn't doing you much good here, as far as your influencing agenda goes. Really, why waste your time here. Move on to more fertile grounds.

Come on tell me what does bill clinton have to do with this thread?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Come on tell me what does bill clinton have to do with this thread?His "successes" have shown the democrats what they can get away with, and they have run with it. If you say you disagree or don't believe it, or don't think that's important, that's not believable.

[FaninAma]

Conservatives whine and complain about "just blame bush" when your go to is bush was a dumbass - but obama is worse! And your party has done everything in it power over the last five and a half years to make it true. Your party is following the lead of the real leader of your party - rush limbaugh - I WANT AMERICA TO FAIL! USE EVERY LEGISLATIVE TACIC TO RUIN OBAMA'S AGENDA. They troops got into goose lock step and did as told.

There is not a area that obama isn't kicking dubya's ***. Where do you think ISIS came from? THE INSURGENCY IN IRAQ!!!! We are still dealing with the total complete and utter failure of the last administration at home and abroad. Bush II will go down as one of the worst presidents in our history and obama will fair much better, much much better.
You truly do not realize how your blind allegiance to the Democrats enables the political class to continue to screw over the nation for their own personal gain. You are the epitome of the term attributed to Lenin that described blind ideal ideologues useful idiots.

[Turd_Ferguson]

You truly do not realize how your blind allegiance to the Democrats enables the political class to continue to screw over the nation for their own personal gain. You are the epitome of the term attributed to Lenin that described blind ideal ideologues useful idiots.

8th is an idiot...useful is questionable, but an idiot nonetheless.

[olevetonahill]

8th is an idiot...useful is questionable, but an idiot nonetheless.

Why you so Hard on Idiots?

[Sooner8th]

You truly do not realize how your blind allegiance to the Democrats enables the political class to continue to screw over the nation for their own personal gain. You are the epitome of the term attributed to Lenin that described blind ideal ideologues useful idiots.

So......whose fault is the almost second republican depression? Who is responsible for attacking iraq? Who is responsible not killing bin laden?

Funny how NOTHING is conservative republicans fault or responsibility or fault while in office or out of office - but EVERYTHING that has gone on while obama took office is all his fault.

****ING IGNORANT LEMMINGS. Tell me again how cuttin' cg taxes causes cg tax revenues to go up.

[REDREX]

Anyone that does not believe that Obama is spineless has his head in the sand

[Sooner8th]

Anyone that does not believe that Obama is spineless has his head in the sand

Anyone who does not understand ISIS is a result of the incompetence and stupidity of bush is a dumbass lemming.

[REDREX]

I would watch who I called a dumbass you arrogant little prick-----Also you are clueless on the affects of tax policy

[BoulderSooner79]

Sic'em is correct and the follow-up partisan bickering in this thread demonstrates why it won't be reversed.

[Sooner8th]

I would watch who I called a dumbass you arrogant little prick-----Also you are clueless on the affects of tax policy

Why should I watch it? True hurts?

You are clueless about everything - and I know cuttin' cg taxes are not the cause of increased cg revenues, however temporary they may be.

[FaninAma]

So......whose fault is the almost second republican depression? Who is responsible for attacking iraq? Who is responsible not killing bin laden?

Funny how NOTHING is conservative republicans fault or responsibility or fault while in office or out of office - but EVERYTHING that has gone on while obama took office is all his fault.

****ING IGNORANT LEMMINGS. Tell me again how cuttin' cg taxes causes cg tax revenues to go up.

That wasn't my question you usedul idiot.I asked you to comment on the fact that the Obama administration has not only continued but expanded the Bush administration policies.

You cannot possibly be for real. I don't know why I thought you were capable of giving a semi-objective answer about anything.

[jkjsooner]

I'm going to state an uncomfortable truth on this, the anniversary of 9/11. They won. I don't mean on the battlefield going toe to toe with American forces. I'm not even referring to the rise of ISIS in Iraq or our inability to fully root out Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan.
They beat us here at home. They beat us by manipulating us into expanding the size and scope of our government into every minute segment of our lives. They beat us the moment we passed the Patriot Act. They beat us the moment we created the Department of Homeland Security. They beat us the moment we created the TSA. They beat us the moment we allowed military-grade equipment and tactics to be used by civilian police forces under the auspices of "fighting terror." They beat us the moment we allowed the NSA unfettered access to our digital private lives. They beat us the moment we became comfortable with the sacrifice of our civil liberties for so-called security.

We, ourselves, have done more damage to our freedoms and liberties than Al-Qaeda or ISIS could have done on their own if they tried for the next 200 years. We did their job for them, and we did it better than they ever could have. Never forget 9/11 -- for both the damage done to us and the damage done to ourselves.

The terrorists don't give a damn about the expanded US government or Patriot Act. That's just all meaningless talk that has no real relevance to the terrorists and their goals.

In that respect they most certainly have not won. You can argue the merits or consequences of the expanded government power but that certainly has nothing to do with the terrorist goals.

Sure they want to increase our anxiety and lessen our sense of security but that is to attain their own specific goals. If anything 9/11 had been very detrimental to them. Had it not been for 9/11 the Taliban would still have an iron grip on Afghanistan.

[jkjsooner]

On the talk about Bush.... This really isn't about Bush but about the Republican party's attempt to rewrite history in regards to the Patriot Act.

Only one Republican senator voted against it and three representatives. Ann Coulter flat out implied that anyone who is against it is anti-American. Bill O'Reilly was a strong proponent. I'd love to dig up some Limbaugh circa 2001.

Ron Paul and Baylor deserve a pass here as they are and have been consistent here. The pundits who have made a strong attempt to rewrite history do not.

[SicEmBaylor]

The terrorists don't give a damn about the expanded US government or Patriot Act. That's just all meaningless talk that has no real relevance to the terrorists and their goals.

In that respect they most certainly have not won. You can argue the merits or consequences of the expanded government power but that certainly has nothing to do with the terrorist goals.

Sure they want to increase our anxiety and lessen our sense of security but that is to attain their own specific goals. If anything 9/11 had been very detrimental to them. Had it not been for 9/11 the Taliban would still have an iron grip on Afghanistan.

You clearly misunderstood what I was saying. I know they don't give a **** about expanding our government -- in fact, I addressed that very point in follow up posts. The point is that they 'won' when we expanded the size and scope of government in the name of combating terrorism. Of course they don't care about what we do with the government itself.

[jkjsooner]

You clearly misunderstood what I was saying. I know they don't give a **** about expanding our government -- in fact, I addressed that very point in follow up posts. The point is that they 'won' when we expanded the size and scope of government in the name of combating terrorism. Of course they don't care about what we do with the government itself.

I just don't understand how you can use the term "won" here.

I could follow it if you argued we have lost by losing ourselves. That certainly is not the same as saying terrorists won.

I just hate this kind of talk. Terrorists hate our freedom. Terrorists hate us because we're rich. This is all B.S.

They hate us because we're involved in their affairs. They hate us because they feel we are spreading western values. They hate us because we are not Muslim. They hate us because they're intolerant of others. They hate us because Allah has commanded them to and they will be rewarded for it.

I got off topic but I just don't like the simplistic narratives that don't have a lot to do with reality. I consider "terrorists have won" to be among them.

Admittedly, a lot of this is parsing words.

[Ton Loc]

I just don't understand how you can use the term "won" here.

I could follow it if you argued we have lost by losing ourselves. That certainly is not the same as saying terrorists won.

I just hate this kind of talk. Terrorists hate our freedom. Terrorists hate us because we're rich. This is all B.S.

They hate us because we're involved in their affairs. They hate us because they feel we are spreading western values. They hate us because we are not Muslim. They hate us because they're intolerant of others. They hate us because Allah has commanded them to and they will be rewarded for it.

I got off topic but I just don't like the simplistic narratives that don't have a lot to do with reality. I consider "terrorists have won" to be among them.

Admittedly, a lot of this is parsing words.

I think the term won is just semantics. The terrorists didn't win ****. This country is no worse now than it was 20 years ago. People just get old and complain.

If you want to blame anyone blame the people who gave power to those that make the decisions. All of us lazy *******s who are more consumed by our local college, pro team, career, fantasy football draft, forum, or whatever other distraction we waste our time on. We could be out making a positive impact or somewhat pay attention to the government around us, but **** that. Football is on.

Boomer Sooner

If Sic'Em needs to assign some of this blame to the terrorists and call that a win for them than that's fine. I doubt the terrorists would agree.

Admittedly, while this is mostly tongue in cheek, I do believe the core of it.

[TAFBSooner]

I just don't understand how you can use the term "won" here.

I could follow it if you argued we have lost by losing ourselves. That certainly is not the same as saying terrorists won.

I just hate this kind of talk. Terrorists hate our freedom. Terrorists hate us because we're rich. This is all B.S.

They hate us because we're involved in their affairs. They hate us because they feel we are spreading western values. They hate us because we are not Muslim. They hate us because they're intolerant of others. They hate us because Allah has commanded them to and they will be rewarded for it.

. . .

You can connect Islamists hating our western values to the diminishment of those values by the whole gamut of the imperial presidency, Patriot Act, TSA, NSA, Total Information Awareness, war on whistleblowers, etc. Some of the "western values" they hate are open government, government by the people, and the secular state. However, remember the Patriot Act being passed within days after 9/11? That document wasn't written in two days - it was sitting in a file waiting for the right opportunity.

We are missing the point whenever we talk about whether Democrats or Republicans are "worse" for civil liberties. Our civil liberty environment has been getting worse under each president. Obama is worse than Bush the Lesser on this issue (actually complex of issues). Bush was worse than Clinton, and Clinton was worse than Bush the Greater. Poppy oversaw Ruby Ridge, and he defended federal police against being called jack-booted thugs.

This is more evidence of the so-called Deep State (http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/anatomy-of-the-deep-state/) than it is of any real difference between the parties on these issues. From this viewpoint, the 9/11 attacks weren't the cause of our loss of freedoms, rather they were an excuse for several rounds of tightening of the screws.

[cleller]

Anyone who does not understand ISIS is a result of the incompetence and stupidity of bush is a dumbass lemming.

We are aware of the situation Obama inherited. What has he done to mitigate or improve the situation he found? Does he have a strategy?