1936 Redux

[FaninAma]

Similarites:
Then:Aggressor nation hosts Olympics then invades Sudentland to "protect" the large ethnic German population.
Now: Aggressor nation hosts Olympics then invades Crimea to "protect" large number of ethnic Russians.

Then:Weak leadership among the traditional allies of the West
Now: Weak leadership among the traditional allies of the West.

Then: Neville Chamberlain
Now: Barack Obama

Then:Growing isolationist sentiment among US citizens.
Now: Growing sentiment against US interventionism in the World's conflicts among US citizens.

There are differences, the biggest of which is that the world now has a global economy in which the economies of aggressive countries such as Russia can suffer severely from economic sanctions IF there is strong leadership and a will in traditional allies to punish them. I see neither currently.

However, the US is so dependent on other countries buying our debt and propping up our economy we are in no position to threaten other countries with sanctions unless they are some weak sister of the poor.

[Curly Bill]

Didn't Hillary even compare Putin & Company to the Nazis?

...not that I've ever cared much about what Billary said...

[diverdog]

Similarites:
Then:Aggressor nation hosts Olympics then invades Sudentland to "protect" the large ethnic German population.
Now: Aggressor nation hosts Olympics then invades Crimea to "protect" large number of ethnic Russians.

Then:Weak leadership among the traditional allies of the West
Now: Weak leadership among the traditional allies of the West.

Then: Neville Chamberlain
Now: Barack Obama

Then:Growing isolationist sentiment among US citizens.
Now: Growing sentiment against US interventionism in the World's conflicts among US citizens.

There are differences, the biggest of which is that the world now has a global economy in which the economies of aggressive countries such as Russia can suffer severely from economic sanctions IF there is strong leadership and a will in traditional allies to punish them. I see neither currently.

However, the US is so dependent on other countries buying our debt and propping up our economy we are in no position to threaten other countries with sanctions unless they are some weak sister of the poor.

What do you propose we do about it?

[Curly Bill]

To borrow from another post I made: We need to hit that damn RESET button til the Ruskies come to their senses.

Either that or make em listen to John Kerry til they die of boredom.

[FaninAma]

What do you propose we do about it?

If Obama had been aggressive about developing a policy of energy independence via natural gas production and had approved the XL pipeline we might be in a better position to cripple Russia's energy exporting sector.

if we had a strong President he might be able to coalesce the European Union with other Western countries and impose some economic sanctions that might have some impact.

Obama could have followed through with the missile deployment agreements with Czechloslavakia and Poland instead of hanging them out to dry. He could have been more aggressive with NATO membership with former Soviet Republics.

He didn't have to tell the Soviet Foreign Minister that he would "have more flexibility after the election."

If he and the Democrats had been more serious about getting our national debt under control we would be in a better position to challenge Russia and other countries on economic policy. As it stands now we really can'afford to **** off anybody who holds a significant percentage of our debt.

Putin knows exactly what Obama is......a weak leader who has no substance or true leadership qualities beyond inspiring a weak and dependent political base of voters.

Elections have consequences and when you elect an empty suit don't be suprised when a world bully kicks sand in his face.

[8timechamps]

If Obama had been aggressive about developing a policy of energy independence via natural gas production and had approved the XL pipeline we might be in a better position to cripple Russia's energy exporting sector.

if we had a strong President he might be able to coalesce the European Union with other Western countries and impose some economic sanctions that might have some impact.

Obama could have followed through with the missile deployment agreements with Czechloslavakia and Poland instead of hanging them out to dry. He could have been more aggressive with NATO membership with former Soviet Republics.

He didn't have to tell the Soviet Foreign Minister that he would "have more flexibility after the election."

If he and the Democrats had been more serious about getting our national debt under control we would be in a better position to challenge Russia and other countries on economic policy. As it stands now we really can'afford to **** off anybody who holds a significant percentage of our debt.

Putin knows exactly what Obama is......a weak leader who has no substance or true leadership qualities beyond inspiring a weak and dependent political base of voters.

Elections have consequences and when you elect an empty suit don't be suprised when a world bully kicks sand in his face.

Hard to argue with any of that.

[Curly Bill]

If Obama had been aggressive about developing a policy of energy independence via natural gas production and had approved the XL pipeline we might be in a better position to cripple Russia's energy exporting sector.

if we had a strong President he might be able to coalesce the European Union with other Western countries and impose some economic sanctions that might have some impact.

Obama could have followed through with the missile deployment agreements with Czechloslavakia and Poland instead of hanging them out to dry. He could have been more aggressive with NATO membership with former Soviet Republics.

He didn't have to tell the Soviet Foreign Minister that he would "have more flexibility after the election."

If he and the Democrats had been more serious about getting our national debt under control we would be in a better position to challenge Russia and other countries on economic policy. As it stands now we really can'afford to **** off anybody who holds a significant percentage of our debt.

Putin knows exactly what Obama is......a weak leader who has no substance or true leadership qualities beyond inspiring a weak and dependent political base of voters.

Elections have consequences and when you elect an empty suit don't be suprised when a world bully kicks sand in his face.

Boy, don't this just ring true as hell to anyone that's not a Kool Aid drinker.

[diverdog]

If Obama had been aggressive about developing a policy of energy independence via natural gas production and had approved the XL pipeline we might be in a better position to cripple Russia's energy exporting sector.

if we had a strong President he might be able to coalesce the European Union with other Western countries and impose some economic sanctions that might have some impact.

Obama could have followed through with the missile deployment agreements with Czechloslavakia and Poland instead of hanging them out to dry. He could have been more aggressive with NATO membership with former Soviet Republics.

He didn't have to tell the Soviet Foreign Minister that he would "have more flexibility after the election."

If he and the Democrats had been more serious about getting our national debt under control we would be in a better position to challenge Russia and other countries on economic policy. As it stands now we really can'afford to **** off anybody who holds a significant percentage of our debt.

Putin knows exactly what Obama is......a weak leader who has no substance or true leadership qualities beyond inspiring a weak and dependent political base of voters.

Elections have consequences and when you elect an empty suit don't be suprised when a world bully kicks sand in his face.

Nice rant. Do you have a shred of proof that increases in energy production or locating ABM system in Europe would have stopped Putin?

I will give you a clue. There is almost zero evidence that a hardline or softline stance by an outside nation makes a bit of difference in the action of another state. Nations do what they want. Some make calculated risk and others don't.

By the way, Putin can have Crimea. A good chunk of their population hates the Russians. The Tartars are Muslim and they are becoming radicalized. He is going to have a mess in a few years.

[SoonerProphet]

Nice rant. Do you have a shred of proof that increases in energy production or locating ABM system in Europe would have stopped Putin?

I will give you a clue. There is almost zero evidence that a hardline or softline stance by an outside nation makes a bit of difference in the action of another state. Nations do what they want. Some make calculated risk and others don't.

By the way, Putin can have Crimea. A good chunk of their population hates the Russians. The Tartars are Muslim and they are becoming radicalized. He is going to have a mess in a few years.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/the-missile-defense-distraction/


Czech President Miloš Zeman considers a possible building of a part of the U.S. missile defense system in the Czech Republic and Poland ineffective, he told ČTK via his spokesman Jiří Ovčáček today.

He reacted to Monday’s suggestion by U.S. Republican Senator John McCain that the US resume the project, originally planned by the George W. Bush administration and scrapped by Barack Obama in 2009, in reaction to the recent Russian invasion of Crimea.

“The president opposed the project [from the beginning], he considered it ineffective, and nothing has changed about his position,” Ovčáček told ČTK.

[BoulderSooner79]

Who's going to play the role of Jesse Owens? Not Dennis Rodman, I hope.

[FaninAma]

Nice rant. Do you have a shred of proof that increases in energy production or locating ABM system in Europe would have stopped Putin?

I will give you a clue. There is almost zero evidence that a hardline or softline stance by an outside nation makes a bit of difference in the action of another state. Nations do what they want. Some make calculated risk and others don't.

By the way, Putin can have Crimea. A good chunk of their population hates the Russians. The Tartars are Muslim and they are becoming radicalized. He is going to have a mess in a few years.
A rant? WTFE.

Go ahead and defend the pathetic POS you voted for. He is weak when confronted by people like Putin but bullies his own citizens through the stifling power of federal executive agencies like the IRS and department of justice.

i suspect Putin is about to make a move on Estonia and Obama will bend over and grab his ankles and you will say the same thing: "Putin can have half of Estonia blah, blah, blah, blah blah".

Putin will deal with Islamic fascio-terrorists a hell of a lot better than Obama has or will.

Can you imagine this **** wad leading this country through a really trying time? Carter would have been more inspirational and shown more leadership. Meanwhile I'm going to sit back and laugh at people like you as you flail around trying to defend this poor excuse of a leader.


Now that was a rant.

[diverdog]

A rant? WTFE.

Go ahead and defend the pathetic POS you voted for. He is weak when confronted by people like Putin but bullies his own citizens through the stifling power of federal executive agencies like the IRS and department of justice.

i suspect Putin is about to make a move on Estonia and Obama will bend over and grab his ankles.

Can you imagine this **** wad leading this country through a really trying time? Carter would have been more inspirational and shown more leadership. Meanwhile I'm going to sit back and laugh at peopel like you as you flail around trying to defend this poor excuse of a leader.


Now that was a rant.

Other than going off the deep end you have provided exactly zero ideas on how to stop Putin.

Lets go back to a President who was suppose to be a hardliner....Bush. Somehow you guys forgot about the downing of our spy plane and the small ransom we paid the Chinese. Or the detonation of a nuclear device by North Korea. And then there was the ongoing shipping of shaped explosives from Iran to Iraq that killed hundreds of our soldiers. What did we do......yep zip. Lets go back to Reagan. Arms for hostages, being run out of Lebanon, forward deployment of SA10's to Eastern Europe. Response by US....zippo.

My point is that short of armed intervention there is almost nothing we can do to Putin. As I said before there is exactly zero proof that a perceived strong President will fair any better than a weak one. These decisions are almost universally made without any thought about world opinion or consequences.

Please explain to me the overwhelming national interest we have in Crimea. I could give a flying **** about them.

[FaninAma]

Other than going off the deep end you have provided exactly zero ideas on how to stop Putin.

Lets go back to a President who was suppose to be a hardliner....Bush. Somehow you guys forgot about the downing of our spy plane and the small ransom we paid the Chinese. Or the detonation of a nuclear device by North Korea. And then there was the ongoing shipping of shaped explosives from Iran to Iraq that killed hundreds of our soldiers. What did we do......yep zip. Lets go back to Reagan. Arms for hostages, being run out of Lebanon, forward deployment of SA10's to Eastern Europe. Response by US....zippo.

My point is that short of armed intervention there is almost nothing we can do to Putin. As I said before there is exactly zero proof that a perceived strong President will fair any better than a weak one. These decisions are almost universally made without any thought about world opinion or consequences.

Please explain to me the overwhelming national interest we have in Crimea. I could give a flying **** about them.

You are the one that responded like an ***. You asked for some things I thought this country could have done to cause Putin to have pause before invading a sovereign country and instill confidence in our allies that we have some leadership in the Oval office and you respond with a stupid *** comment without a shred of substance.

Obama is weak. The world knows he is weak. He generates no confidence in our allies and no fear in our enemies.

Go ahead and continue your excuse making tour.

BTW, I assume you feel the only thing Obama could do in this situation is continue giving the world that deer-in-the-headlites look and filling out his Final Four bracket.

Like I said , I am very entertained by the weak-assed lame excuses Obama's supporters are pulling out of their rectums.

[FaninAma]

Back at ya, Prophet.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/6209800/Missile-shield-cancellation-disappoints-Poles.html

[FaninAma]

And apparently Obama and his puppet master Soros bit off more than they could chew:

http://1389blog.com/2014/03/19/ukraine-the-nazis-even-hitler-feared-and-their-us-backed-euromaidan-followers/

Did the DF Obama really think Putin would sit idly by and let Soros replace the pro-Russian President of Ukraine with pro-Soros lapdog?

[SoonerProphet]

Back at ya, Prophet.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/6209800/Missile-shield-cancellation-disappoints-Poles.html


Donald Tusk, the Polish prime minister, had promised additional funding and there was confident talk of the US dipping into its pockets to improve the town's infrastructure, perhaps even helping to finance an aqua-park. Now these dreams are evaporating fast.


Sweet, didn't know you were such a fan of Polish welfare queens. To bad they couldn't get an aqua park on you and I's dime.


But some welcomed the news that the shield was no longer to be located there. "I'm a peace-loving person so naturally I don't like anything military near me. I feel quite comfortable with the decision that we won't have the shield," said Justyna Sawa, a Slupsk pensioner who lives not far from the base.
"People were afraid of having the shield right beside them," she added.
Agnieszka Wojawoda, a teacher at a local school, also expressed her satisfaction over the system's demise. "I'm disappointed that the US doesn't want to support us but on the other hand I'm relieved that the shield won't be built as there will be no danger," she said. "The shield wouldn't have helped us. We shouldn't count on the US, and instead should build closer relations with our neighbours." But further away from Slupsk the reaction to the American decision to cancel the anti-missile system has been less mixed.

Doesn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement. I get you have a hatred for the president, we all saw the same vitriol for W. I am thoroughly disgusted with his foreign policy towards Russia as well. But it is not any different than what we've seen since the end of the Cold War. It it driven by both the neocons and leftist internationalists who like to meddle in others business and get all uppity when folks tell em to f*ck off.

[SoonerProphet]

And apparently Obama and his puppet master Soros bit off more than they could chew:

http://1389blog.com/2014/03/19/ukraine-the-nazis-even-hitler-feared-and-their-us-backed-euromaidan-followers/


Did the DF Obama really think Putin would sit idly by and let Soros replace the pro-Russian President of Ukraine with pro-Soros lapdog?

Yep, pretty disgusting who the Euros and ourselves are willing to back in the name of democracy and shark like IMF loans. Austerity for thee but not me.

[diverdog]

Sweet, didn't know you were such a fan of Polish welfare queens. To bad they couldn't get an aqua park on you and I's dime.



Doesn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement. I get you have a hatred for the president, we all saw the same vitriol for W. I am thoroughly disgusted with his foreign policy towards Russia as well. But it is not any different than what we've seen since the end of the Cold War. It it driven by both the neocons and leftist internationalists who like to meddle in others business and get all uppity when folks tell em to f*ck off.

you are right about who is driving this show in the media. Whether Crimea is part of the Ukraine or Russia does not make a lick of difference to the US.

one of the great problems after the break up of the USSR was knowing what should be done about the former states. In many ways the world is less safe than when the USSR was still viable. All of the states that are dominated by muslims are either radicalized or at war with its own people. Most are controlled by corrupt ruthless dictators who havea tendency to boil their enemies alive.

[diverdog]

You are the one that responded like an ***. You asked for some things I thought this country could have done to cause Putin to have pause before invading a sovereign country and instill confidence in our allies that we have some leadership in the Oval office and you respond with a stupid *** comment without a shred of substance.

Obama is weak. The world knows he is weak. He generates no confidence in our allies and no fear in our enemies.

Go ahead and continue your excuse making tour.

BTW, I assume you feel the only thing Obama could do in this situation is continue giving the world that deer-in-the-headlites look and filling out his Final Four bracket.

Like I said , I am very entertained by the weak-assed lame excuses Obama's supporters are pulling out of their rectums.


No you just repeated the right wing agenda without a shred of thought.

1. It will take years to build the infra infrastructure to supply Europe with the gas they need. In fact, there are some areas over there where fracking might work and that might be the better option. Still the Russians may be able to under cut prices and keep imports from being viable.

2. Putting ABM's in Europe will only infuriate the Russians. They will be more likely to invade more countries to provide a sense of strategic depth.

3. Russia is being run by a mafia. Sooner or later the people will get fed up with the corruption and Putin will be gone.

Lets also be clear that we are talking about a country that is smaller than the State of Maryland. I cannot see a prevailing national interest in the Ukraine or Crimea.

[FaninAma]

Sweet, didn't know you were such a fan of Polish welfare queens. To bad they couldn't get an aqua park on you and I's dime.



Doesn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement. I get you have a hatred for the president, we all saw the same vitriol for W. I am thoroughly disgusted with his foreign policy towards Russia as well. But it is not any different than what we've seen since the end of the Cold War. It it driven by both the neocons and leftist internationalists who like to meddle in others business and get all uppity when folks tell em to f*ck off.

Then why defend the fw? You won't catch me defending any of the Bushes or establishment Republicans on foreign policy.

[FaninAma]

No you just repeated the right wing agenda without a shred of thought. then don't ask me my opinion and then respond like a high school sophomore.


1. It will take years to build the infra infrastructure to supply Europe with the gas they need. In fact, there are some areas over there where fracking might work and that might be the better option. Still the Russians may be able to under cut prices and keep imports from being viable.
Agreed but spending the last 5 years wasting billions on failed green energy companies sure didn't get us closer to that goal.


2. Putting ABM's in Europe will only infuriate the Russians. They will be more likely to invade more countries to provide a sense of strategic depth.
yeah because that was exactly what happened when Reagan nuclear armed Europe when the USSR had an even bigger military presence and was even more aggressive towards its neighbors. Do you even study history?


3. Russia is being run by a mafia. Sooner or later the people will get fed up with the corruption and Putin will be gone.
And you think somebody friendlier to this country will take his place and cooperate with us in places like Syria and Iraq?

Lets also be clear that we are talking about a country that is smaller than the State of Maryland. I cannot see a prevailing national interest in the Ukraine or Crimea.

I tend to agree but then why was the US and EU supporting the agitators with the help iof George Soros to overthrow an elected government in a sovereign country? If they were hoping to provoke Russia they got their wish. Now lets see how they deal with the fallout.

[BigTip]

"Who cares about Crimea because it is worthless?"

That gives me no solace. The point of it is that one country is just taking another. Supposedly that is not suppose to happen any more in our civilized world.

Unfortunately there is not a lot we can do. Economic sanctions? Ha! (in thick Russian accent.) "Goodt! Now we stop paying back debt." Then laughter insues over the sound of clinking vodka glasses.

[diverdog]

then don't ask me my opinion and then respond like a high school sophomore.


Agreed but spending the last 5 years wasting billions on failed green energy companies sure didn't get us closer to that goal.


yeah because that was exactly what happened when Reagan nuclear armed Europe when the USSR had an even bigger military presence and was even more aggressive towards its neighbors. Do you even study history?


And you think somebody friendlier to this country will take his place and cooperate with us in places like Syria and Iraq?


I tend to agree but then why was the US and EU supporting the agitators with the help iof George Soros to overthrow an elected government in a sovereign country? If they were hoping to provoke Russia they got their wish. Now lets see how they deal with the fallout.

When Reagan moved in nuclear weapons Russia responded by moving SS20's closer to Europe.

Our ABM systems are not battle tested and they would be ineffective against the newly deployed R500. I have little faith they would deter Putin.

You keep missing my point. I do not care if it is Obama or a US version of Putin in office there is exactly zero we can do to stop the take over of Crimea.

I do not ever remember the US of having a goal of supplying Europe with energy. At the time it was to get us of ME oil. Before fracking wind power was one card in the deck towards that goal.

[SoonerProphet]

Then why defend the fw? You won't catch me defending any of the Bushes or establishment Republicans on foreign policy.

Don't think anyone here is defending the Obama Administration or it handling of the Ukrainian issue. However, I think the whole "weak" leadership canard foisted by those who think American firepower is a panacea for the worlds problems. Putin would have reacted this way no matter what president is in office.

[TAFBSooner]

I tend to agree but then why was the US and EU supporting the agitators with the help iof George Soros to overthrow an elected government in a sovereign country? If they were hoping to provoke Russia they got their wish. Now lets see how they deal with the fallout.

Here is the bigger reason to hate on Obama, and the whole State Dept/CIA National Security Establishmentm aka Permanent Government.

Stop interfering in other countries where we have no vital national interest, and we won't have to deal with the blowback. Instead of weak vs strong, how about smart vs dumb?

[FaninAma]

Here is the bigger reason to hate on Obama, and the whole State Dept/CIA National Security Establishmentm aka Permanent Government.

Stop interfering in other countries where we have no vital national interest, and we won't have to deal with the blowback. Instead of weak vs strong, how about smart vs dumb?
I agree. We should have never been supporting the agitators in Ukraine. Then Obama
wouldn't like an idiot when Putin one-upped him in the Crimea.

[diverdog]

I have Been reading a lot and the best move seems like the direction Obama is heading. Figure out a long rang strategy to crush the ruble. Where the strategy is vulnerable is the need for Obama to lead the G7 nations to a united front and stop Russia's access to our banks and financial markets.
This was the same strategy that broke the back of the USSR.

[TAFBSooner]

I have Been reading a lot and the best move seems like the direction Obama is heading. Figure out a long rang strategy to crush the ruble. Where the strategy is vulnerable is the need for Obama to lead the G7 nations to a united front and stop Russia's access to our banks and financial markets.
This was the same strategy that broke the back of the USSR.

Why is it in the US national interest to preserve pre-existing state borders, even when the majority of residents of a given region (i.e., Crimea) no longer want to be associated with their current state (Ukraine)?

Let me re-phrase that: why does the US national security establishment behave as if it is in the US national interest to preserve pre-existing state borders, even when the majority of residents of a given region (i.e., Crimea, the Kurds) no longer want to be associated with their current state (Ukraine, Iraq)?

[diverdog]

TAFB:

I agree with you. We should stay out of it.

[Sooner8th]

So obama misjudged him?

http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4485932/bush-trusts-putin

The summit was judged a success by both sides even though it left Russia and the US little closer to resolving the issues that divided them. The atmosphere was one of friendly co-operation with the two leaders getting on far better than expected. The warmth of the meeting surprised many. The first handshake looked stiff and awkward, but after well over an hour of talks they came out smiling with Bush inviting the Russian leader to visit his ranch in Texas. Bush described their meeting as straightforward and effective. He said it was time to move beyond Cold War attitudes, away from mutually assured destruction towards mutually earned respect. "I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straight forward and trustworthy and we had a very good dialogue. I was able to get a sense of his soul. He's a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country and I appreciate very much the frank dialogue and that's the beginning of a very constructive relationship," Bush said.

That never gets old.

[Turd_Ferguson]

So obama misjudged him?

http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4485932/bush-trusts-putin

The summit was judged a success by both sides even though it left Russia and the US little closer to resolving the issues that divided them. The atmosphere was one of friendly co-operation with the two leaders getting on far better than expected. The warmth of the meeting surprised many. The first handshake looked stiff and awkward, but after well over an hour of talks they came out smiling with Bush inviting the Russian leader to visit his ranch in Texas. Bush described their meeting as straightforward and effective. He said it was time to move beyond Cold War attitudes, away from mutually assured destruction towards mutually earned respect. "I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straight forward and trustworthy and we had a very good dialogue. I was able to get a sense of his soul. He's a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country and I appreciate very much the frank dialogue and that's the beginning of a very constructive relationship," Bush said.

That never gets old.


I"m not sure I see your point...

[olevetonahill]

I"m not sure I see your point...

Ya got to lift his hat up and then ya can see it.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Ya got to lift his hat up and then ya can see it.

lmao!