How many states really want to secede from the union?

[OU_Sooners75]

I overheard something my brother was talking about to one of his friends. He was reading something like 24 states are wanting to secede from the United States (or at least their citizens are).

States like Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas, Missouri, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, New Hampshire, New Jersey, etc. I didnt catch the rest of them.

So when I heard this, I decided to go to google and see what I could find.

Found that the white house has denied petitions on this matter.

Also found this:

http://www.policymic.com/articles/18946/obama-secession-citizens-from-18-states-ask-president-to-secede-from-the-union

take it all with a grain of salt.

My point? Well, I was wondering if you would support your state if they happened to secede from the union?

[Curly Bill]

I overheard something my brother was talking about to one of his friends. He was reading something like 24 states are wanting to secede from the United States (or at least their citizens are).

States like Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas, Missouri, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, New Hampshire, New Jersey, etc. I didnt catch the rest of them.

So when I heard this, I decided to go to google and see what I could find.

Found that the white house has denied petitions on this matter.

Also found this:

http://www.policymic.com/articles/18946/obama-secession-citizens-from-18-states-ask-president-to-secede-from-the-union

take it all with a grain of salt.

My point? Well, I was wondering if you would support your state if they happened to secede from the union?

Most definitely!

[TheHumanAlphabet]

In a heart beat.

[yermom]

Are you referring to OK?

You know that state that gets more in federal funding than it pays out...

Sounds like a great idea.

[okie52]

Gee, I wonder what would happen to the remaining states in the country if OK stopped Cushing from sending oil north?

[KantoSooner]

Why stop at seceeding from the Union? I assume you would support secession by your state because that evil Federal Government (made up, of course of people you elected and those they appointed) is just so overbearing. But why bow your head to any authority? So why stop at the state level? Why shouldn't your county secede from your state? That gets things much closer to leaving you in total control. But, really, is that sufficient? I mean, those folks from down county might just get some airs and try and lord it over you. F 'em! Secede from the County! Show those bastidges! But wait! How do you know that your town council won't try something funny? YOU DON'T. Secede from your town. You'll stop those lousy so and so's! Still, it must be said, your brother in law and father have been mighty chummy of late. Conversations have stopped when you came into the room. Can you trust them? You CAN NOT! Secede from your family! It's the only way.

Don't be afraid, I'll be by to bring you water and a sammich from time to time as you hunker down in the back yard. A recognition signal might be needed. I'll call out "Dingbat", you reply with 'Yup' and I'll come on in.

Isn't adult political conversation great?

[badger]

Reminds me of when Democrat voters talked of moving to Canada after W. got elected to a second term.

Can we just wait till the midterm before giving up on being a united state with the other 49? Historically, the second midterm is killer for a two-term president. It happened to Clinton, it happened to W., it's likely going to happen to Obama later this year. The Kochs and others are already hitting some incumbent Obamacare voters a LOT to worry about with attack ads this early in an election year.

Table this anger till November if you're angry with Obama(care). I think you'll be happy with how most of the United States votes then.

[Curly Bill]

Reminds me of when Democrat voters talked of moving to Canada after W. got elected to a second term.

Can we just wait till the midterm before giving up on being a united state with the other 49? Historically, the second midterm is killer for a two-term president. It happened to Clinton, it happened to W., it's likely going to happen to Obama later this year. The Kochs and others are already hitting some incumbent Obamacare voters a LOT to worry about with attack ads this early in an election year.

Table this anger till November if you're angry with Obama(care). I think you'll be happy with how most of the United States votes then.

Why should people table their anger til a certain date? Should we all be sheep?

[FaninAma]

Why stop at seceeding from the Union? I assume you would support secession by your state because that evil Federal Government (made up, of course of people you elected and those they appointed) is just so overbearing. But why bow your head to any authority? So why stop at the state level? Why shouldn't your county secede from your state? That gets things much closer to leaving you in total control. But, really, is that sufficient? I mean, those folks from down county might just get some airs and try and lord it over you. F 'em! Secede from the County! Show those bastidges! But wait! How do you know that your town council won't try something funny? YOU DON'T. Secede from your town. You'll stop those lousy so and so's! Still, it must be said, your brother in law and father have been mighty chummy of late. Conversations have stopped when you came into the room. Can you trust them? You CAN NOT! Secede from your family! It's the only way.

Don't be afraid, I'll be by to bring you water and a sammich from time to time as you hunker down in the back yard. A recognition signal might be needed. I'll call out "Dingbat", you reply with 'Yup' and I'll come on in.

Isn't adult political conversation great?

Did all the countries that broke off from the former USSR continue to break into smaller entities?

At some point a balance would be reached between the liberty of individual citizens and the propper functions of government(with appropriate oversight by the people).

Nobody can deny that the federal government has grown too large and it is impossible to make it run efficiently or reign in its abuses of power and waste of resources. Hell, that's Obama's number one excuse for not being on top of problems in his own administration.

What was the population of the United States at the time the Constitution was ratified? How can the federal government possibly keep serving a growing population of hundreds of millions of people efficiently. As our population increases so does the inefficiency of the federal government.

Now add in the thousands of layers of regulatory beaurocracy that have been added in the interim. Eventually the federal government will collapse of its own weight just like the beuarocracy in the Soviet Union did.

Currently the unwieldy size of our federal government only serves as a barrier to economic growth and prosperity. That barrier will continue to get larger as government grows.

[Curly Bill]

Kanto is the guy that before the American Revolution would have been out in the streets frantically shouting how we dare not break away from the king, that surely we were all doomed to engage in such folly.

[okie52]

Easy there Kanto...don't get all worked up over a hypothetical situation.

But, along those lines... OK wouldn't secede by itself, it would probably join TX and a number of Southeastern states and form some confederation of states (SEC!!! SEC!!! SEC!!!).

The good news would be that this "confederacy" would be energy independent, find no need to engage in foreign wars to "defend our oil interests", would probably throw out all illegals, trannies would use mens restrooms if they have a dick and wouldn't have "hate crimes". Bad news is that pot would never be legal, religion would dominate politics, possibly have to find new markets for exporting its NG and oil, would lose (at least temporarily) military bases until they established their own, have to develop a navy, Airforce, and army, all SS payments would be lost to the US (hey, what a way for the remaining states in the US to get SS/medicare/medicade solvent) etc...etc...etc...

All kinds of interesting battles that could take place...like does the new confederation declare it owns the gulf of Mexico? Federal lands within seceding states becomes state property of the rebels? OU/TX et al joining the SEC?

[okie52]

Kanto is the guy that before the American Revolution would have been out in the streets frantically shouting how we dare not break away from the king, that surely we were all doomed to engage in such folly.

TRAITOR!!!!

[KantoSooner]

Something around 35 individuals seems to have been the stable level for human society for most of the last 200,000 years. Why break with tradition?

[SoonerorLater]

So quick it would make your head spin. We started out as coalition of states, each with their own rules, customs and laws. Unfortunately almost from the start there have been those, primarily through an activist and influentially outsized judical branch, that have turned this country into a monolithic welfare state. State's rights have been eroded year after year. Each state should have great discretion in how they want to shape the laws and culture in their area.

We don't care what they think or how they want to do things in New York or California.

[diverdog]

Gee, I wonder what would happen to the remaining states in the country if OK stopped Cushing from sending oil north?

We got access to the sea . You are land locked. I am pretty sure the coastal states would be ok.

[diverdog]

Did all the countries that broke off from the former USSR continue to break into smaller entities?

At some point a balance would be reached between the liberty of individual citizens and the propper functions of government(with appropriate oversight by the people).

Nobody can deny that the federal government has grown too large and it is impossible to make it run efficiently or reign in its abuses of power and waste of resources. Hell, that's Obama's number one excuse for not being on top of problems in his own administration.

What was the population of the United States at the time the Constitution was ratified? How can the federal government possibly keep serving a growing population of hundreds of millions of people efficiently. As our population increases so does the inefficiency of the federal government.

Now add in the thousands of layers of regulatory beaurocracy that have been added in the interim. Eventually the federal government will collapse of its own weight just like the beuarocracy in the Soviet Union did.

Currently the unwieldy size of our federal government only serves as a barrier to economic growth and prosperity. That barrier will continue to get larger as government grows.

fanin:

Tell me how those breakaway republics are doing?

Read this:

http://www.hamiltonproject.org/papers/a_record_decline_in_government_jobs_implications_f or_todays_economy_an/

[cvsooner]

I would definitely support the secession of Texas. The rest of the states, no.

[TAFBSooner]

. . . Bad news . . . would lose (at least temporarily) military bases until they established their own, have to develop a navy, Airforce, and army,

STRONGLY suggest you negotiate over the military bases, exactly like you didn't do at Fort Sumter. Even if that means you live with their military in your midst. The Castro brothers have done OK with that for over 50 years. Remember, you will have a majority of the personnel now in (and retired from) the military.

Speaking of that second person pronoun I used, would you have open borders, so that conservative Northerners can come join your paradise, and liberals can head north?

[SoonerorLater]

We got access to the sea . You are land locked. I am pretty sure the coastal states would be ok.

Actually Oklahoma has the port of Catoosa. The only way to stop it would be to throw up a blockade.

[TAFBSooner]

I would definitely support the secession of Texas. The rest of the states, no.

Hurrah! Hurrah! :very_drunk:

[TAFBSooner]

We got access to the sea . You are land locked. I am pretty sure the coastal states would be ok.

The neo-South would still have access to the sea, and the neo-Union would still have the Bakken and other fracking oil fields.

[okie52]

We got access to the sea . You are land locked. I am pretty sure the coastal states would be ok.

Heh, OK wouldn't go without TX...got to have access to the sea.

[badger]

Why should people table their anger til a certain date? Should we all be sheep?

I know that offseason is a difficult and long period of months, but you must be patient. Kickoff will be here soon :P

[okie52]

STRONGLY suggest you negotiate over the military bases, exactly like you didn't do at Fort Sumter. Even if that means you live with their military in your midst. The Castro brothers have done OK with that for over 50 years. Remember, you will have a majority of the personnel now in (and retired from) the military.

Speaking of that second person pronoun I used, would you have open borders, so that conservative Northerners can come join your paradise, and liberals can head north?

I don't recall being around for Ft Sumter...but the Yanks were warned and didn't withdraw from Confederate (South Carolina) property. Would have been much wiser for the rebs to have allowed it until they could have built up their own munitions plants, naval force, etc...

Open borders for Yankees? Depends if a problem develops with too many hanging around because we would have more jobs in the South.

[okie52]

The neo-South would still have access to the sea, and the neo-Union would still have the Bakken and other fracking oil fields.

Not sure if N Dakota would stick with the north...pretty conservative state (and now an oil producing state)....as are S Dakota, Nebraska and Kansas. And would the Yankees allow fracking and pipelines?

The Marcellus would certainly be in a yankee enclave...maybe the north might actually convert to NG (principles be damned).

[okie52]

http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af24/okie54/2012electoralmapresultsfinal110812_zps6fe4b084.jpg (http://s990.photobucket.com/user/okie54/media/2012electoralmapresultsfinal110812_zps6fe4b084.jpg .html)

Now if all of those red states seceded it could cause a real problem for the yankees getting to both ends of their country.

[TAFBSooner]

Heh, OK wouldn't go without TX...got to have access to the sea.

The sad and sorry truth of it is that OK wouldn't stay without TX, either.

[okie52]

The sad and sorry truth of it is that OK wouldn't stay without TX, either.

Probably not because economically and culturally they are very similar. But I think the south is ready to punt Florida.

[okie52]

There would be some irony though (based on the electoral map). West Virginia was formed because it didn't go along with Virginia's secession. Now VA would stay and WV would go. Kansas and Missouri had many bloody battles over slave state vs free state and now they'd be together.

[TAFBSooner]

I don't recall being around for Ft Sumter...but the Yanks were warned and didn't withdraw from Confederate (South Carolina) property. Would have been much wiser for the rebs to have allowed it until they could have built up their own munitions plants, naval force, etc...

There's a decent chance they wouldn't have needed that large military. Lincoln didn't have enough support to go on the offensive until Fort Sumter.



Open borders for Yankees? Depends if a problem develops with too many hanging around because we would have more jobs in the South.

If it were about jobs (and that's always part of it) some folks woud head north so they could get a job they could make a living at.

[okie52]

There's a decent chance they wouldn't have needed that large military. Lincoln didn't have enough support to go on the offensive until Fort Sumter.



If it were about jobs (and that's always part of it) some folks woud head north so they could get a job they could make a living at.

Oh, people can't make a living at their jobs in the south with a substantially lower cost of living? Then I just cant fathom why the south is growing and the north isn't.

But if the yanks weren't hanging around looking for handouts or trying to crowd in on good southerners work...then open borders would be just fine.

[FaninAma]

fanin:

Tell me how those breakaway republics are doing?

Read this:

http://www.hamiltonproject.org/papers/a_record_decline_in_government_jobs_implications_f or_todays_economy_an/

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/governmentjobs/a/hiringbinge.htm

When has the federal spending ever decreased? When has the federal beuacracy ever reduced regulatory burden they impose on Americans? When have the dependency promoting entitlement programs ever been scaled back?

I am sure the former Soviet republics are a lot better off than they were as a part of the Soviet Union....or do you disagree?

[FaninAma]

The reassuring truth of it is that OK wouldn't stay without TX, either.
FIFY.

[TAFBSooner]

http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af24/okie54/2012electoralmapresultsfinal110812_zps6fe4b084.jpg (http://s990.photobucket.com/user/okie54/media/2012electoralmapresultsfinal110812_zps6fe4b084.jpg .html)

Now if all of those red states seceded it could cause a real problem for the yankees getting to both ends of their country.

It's not only about the states. Check out the map about a third of the way down, and the descriptions following it:
http://www.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine/fall2013/features/up-in-arms.html

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Probably not because economically and culturally they are very similar. But I think the south is ready to punt Florida.

This leads to an interesting scenario. If some kind of secession did occur and the dominoes started falling, would northern Florida (being far more conservative) split from south Florida? That could lead to some interesting territorial disputes if the new Union wants to drill in the GOM off the Florida coast.

[TAFBSooner]

This leads to an interesting scenario. If some kind of secession did occur and the dominoes started falling, would northern Florida (being far more conservative) split from south Florida? That could lead to some interesting territorial disputes if the new Union wants to drill in the GOM off the Florida coast.

I agree that the southern tip of Florida would be likely to split off from the panhandle and northern part of the peninsula. But who says the neo-Union would get South Florida?

Miami would become the capital of the Caribbean. Or at least fight Havana for the honor.

[okie52]

This leads to an interesting scenario. If some kind of secession did occur and the dominoes started falling, would northern Florida (being far more conservative) split from south Florida? That could lead to some interesting territorial disputes if the new Union wants to drill in the GOM off the Florida coast.

Heh heh...but the Yanks and south floridians are against offshore drilling where it is currently banned until 2022...and there are some huge reserves there for sure.

[okie52]

It's not only about the states. Check out the map about a third of the way down, and the descriptions following it:
http://www.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine/fall2013/features/up-in-arms.html

Interesting read but Okie, tX, AR and TN didn't side with the union as he states regarding greater appalachia. Okie's chickasaws, Choctaws and Cherokees all fought for the south as did TN, AR and TX.

[diverdog]

The phallacy with this pipe dream is that these states would be some sort of conservative utopia. There is a good chance a few states will have enormous problems like Mississippi, Alabama, LA and Arkansas that are extremely poor states. Plus a few states have been trending towards blue like Texas and NC.

[badger]

Plus a few states have been trending towards blue like Texas and NC.

They come for the lower taxes and jobs, then stay and vote the same way they did in states with higher taxes and less jobs. ;)

[okie52]

Heh...the only reason TX is trending blue is because of all the illegals having babies...when they are kicked out that wouldn't be near as big a problem. NC may not join...they're kind of wishy washy having voted for Hussein in 2008.

Alabama, Mississippi, AR and LA would have more problems as part of a confederation than in the union? Surely you jest. They are poor being part of the union.

Don't think a confederation would be a conservative utopia but it sure wouldn't be passing tranny bathroom laws or screwing with business near as much as the yankees.

[okie52]

They come for the lower taxes and jobs, then stay and vote the same way they did in states with higher taxes and less jobs. ;)

Very true...look at the pathetic state that Florida has become.

[Curly Bill]

Heh...the only reason TX is trending blue is because of all the illegals having babies...when they are kicked out that wouldn't be near as big a problem. NC may not join...they're kind of wishy washy having voted for Hussein in 2008.

Alabama, Mississippi, AR and LA would have more problems as part of a confederation than in the union? Surely you jest. They are poor being part of the union.

Don't think a confederation would be a conservative utopia but it sure wouldn't be passing tranny bathroom laws or screwing with business near as much as the yankees.

Yup, if it wasn't for the messicans in Texas we wouldn't even be able to spell blue (in a political sense).

[okie52]

Yup, if it wasn't for the messicans in Texas we wouldn't even be able to spell blue (in a political sense).

Sad but true....

[yermom]

yeah, because Mexico wouldn't overrun Texas faster without the feds

[okie52]

Yep, the feds have put the fear in the mexicans to not cross the border OR ELSE!!!!!...11,000,000 illegals later some people believe the feds have done a good job.

[Curly Bill]

yeah, because Mexico wouldn't overrun Texas faster without the feds

Yeah! Love that border security the feds are providing!!

You're trying too hard to be argumentative, and come up with one of the stupidest things anyone has ever posted on here during my time.

[okie52]

Yeah! Love that border security the feds are providing!!

You're trying too hard to be argumentative, and come up with one of the stupidest things anyone has ever posted on here during my time.

Sometimes people cling so hard to a belief that the brain ceases to function.

[Curly Bill]

Sometimes people cling so hard to a belief that the brain ceases to function.

On most issues he's gonna spew whatever the liberal talking points are, regardless of what the truth or evidence might show to the contrary. I've noticed the liberals that make it onto TV do the same thing?!

[okie52]

On most issues he's gonna spew whatever the liberal talking points are, regardless of what the truth or evidence might show to the contrary. I've noticed the liberals that make it onto TV do the same thing?!

I think he stated once that 100,000,000 messicans would overrun the US if the country got down to 100,000,000 people. Really thinks that messican army is a bunch of badasses...

[Curly Bill]

I think he stated once that 100,000,000 messicans would overrun the US if the country got down to 100,000,000 people. Really thinks that messican army is a bunch of badasses...

Messican army couldn't overrun the women's cotillion of greater Austin.

[okie52]

Heh...

[jkjsooner]

http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af24/okie54/2012electoralmapresultsfinal110812_zps6fe4b084.jpg (http://s990.photobucket.com/user/okie54/media/2012electoralmapresultsfinal110812_zps6fe4b084.jpg .html)

Now if all of those red states seceded it could cause a real problem for the yankees getting to both ends of their country.

That's a mighty big assumption there. There's a big difference between voting for a Republican and voting to secede.

But, anyway, power to ya. I live in NC and I know darn well they would not secede. It may be south and they may go Republican sometimes but they're nowhere near that crazy.

Leave the union and watch the brain drain from the southern cities. Heck the cities would probably try their hardest to distance themselves from the loonies.

[okie52]

That's a mighty big assumption there. There's a big difference between voting for a Republican and voting to secede.

But, anyway, power to ya. I live in NC and I know darn well they would not secede. It may be south and they may go Republican sometimes but they're nowhere near that crazy.

Leave the union and watch the brain drain from the southern cities. Heck the cities would probably try their hardest to distance themselves from the loonies.

Of course there is no way to know if all of those states would secede nor has any such critical mass been reached and, of course, it would depend on what situation(s) caused critical mass to be reached. Just a hypothetical situation so....relax.

Brain drain from southern cities...hah hah...to the northern utopia? Have you not been watching what areas of the country are growing, where the industry and businesses are locating? You haven't noticed what areas are losing electoral votes and which ones are gaining them?

But hey, hang onto your fantasy.

[Curly Bill]

Of course there is no way to know if all of those states would secede nor has any such critical mass been reached and, of course, it would depend on what situation(s) caused critical mass to be reached. Just a hypothetical situation so....relax.

Brain drain from southern cities...hah hah...to the northern utopia? Have you not been watching what areas of the country are growing, where the industry and businesses are locating? You haven't noticed what areas are losing electoral votes and which ones are gaining them?

But hey, hang onto your fantasy.

But...but...but....they're so much more enlightened in those bastions of progressivism. Surely anyone with any degree of mental acuity would rush to be a part of that!


Oh...and did you see how he threw loonies in there? You know, just in case you didn't know that he's smarter than those that don't see things the way he does.

[jkjsooner]

Brain drain from southern cities...hah hah...to the northern utopia? Have you not been watching what areas of the country are growing, where the industry and businesses are locating? You haven't noticed what areas are losing electoral votes and which ones are gaining them?

But hey, hang onto your fantasy.

I don't think most of those gains are from crazy loonies who want to secede. Not many of those on college campuses and not many in the high tech fields.

Like I said, there's not many people here in the RTP area that would go along with secession. If the rest of NC wanted to do it, most of the highly educated RTP residents would pack their bags.

[diverdog]

Heh...the only reason TX is trending blue is because of all the illegals having babies...when they are kicked out that wouldn't be near as big a problem. NC may not join...they're kind of wishy washy having voted for Hussein in 2008.

Alabama, Mississippi, AR and LA would have more problems as part of a confederation than in the union? Surely you jest. They are poor being part of the union.

Don't think a confederation would be a conservative utopia but it sure wouldn't be passing tranny bathroom laws or screwing with business near as much as the yankees.

How are you going them out? Civil War?

[diverdog]

Heh...the only reason TX is trending blue is because of all the illegals having babies...when they are kicked out that wouldn't be near as big a problem. NC may not join...they're kind of wishy washy having voted for Hussein in 2008.

Alabama, Mississippi, AR and LA would have more problems as part of a confederation than in the union? Surely you jest. They are poor being part of the union.

Don't think a confederation would be a conservative utopia but it sure wouldn't be passing tranny bathroom laws or screwing with business near as much as the yankees.

They will be a lot poorer.

I think you forget that California and New York alone account for over 20% of GDP. Without Texas the % of GDP produced by red states is not that great. California would recoup tens of billions that they currently pay out. The richer states would get richer and the poorer states would get poorer.

[okie52]

I don't think most of those gains are from crazy loonies who want to secede. Not many of those on college campuses and not many in the high tech fields.

Like I said, there's not many people here in the RTP area that would go along with secession. If the rest of NC wanted to do it, most of the highly educated RTP residents would pack their bags.

So you can make that statement carte Blanche?

Well, if it ever came to states really wanting to secede I would assume there would be some very good reasons for it...like nationalizing the oil and gas industry or harming industries that were predominantly in the south. It wouldn't be because they just didn't like a dem prez or they don't like Yankees. Hell, they've had that excuse for a long time.

[okie52]

How are you going them out? Civil War?

Wouldn't be a need for a civil war to enforce the law...or do you yankees not understand that?

[okie52]

They will be a lot poorer.

I think you forget that California and New York alone account for over 20% of GDP. Without Texas the % of GDP produced by red states is not that great. California would recoup tens of billions that they currently pay out. The richer states would get richer and the poorer states would get poorer.

Blah blah blah....I guess that mass exodus to the south from the north would stop because of all those anti business laws in the south. California is trying to stop the hemorrhaging as businesses leave that anti business state. The poor south couldn't get by without Cali and ny sending them money. Cali needs all the help it can get when paying for all of the illegals comes due.

And the south wouldn't be poorer...all of that oil and gas production would be going just to the southern states...far more money than they ever see from ny or Cali...but I'm sure as good neighbors they'd be willing to sell it to you at a price lower than OPEC .

[okie52]

But...but...but....they're so much more enlightened in those bastions of progressivism. Surely anyone with any degree of mental acuity would rush to be a part of that!


Oh...and did you see how he threw loonies in there? You know, just in case you didn't know that he's smarter than those that don't see things the way he does.

If you aren't enlightened you must be a looney...really no other explanation.

[OUinFLA]

Probably not because economically and culturally they are very similar. But I think the south is ready to punt Florida.

What ! Wait !

Couldn't we just cede Dade and Broward county to the North ? or Cuba ?

We're pretty conservative here in central and northwest Florida.

Besides, wouldn't you want to keep Disney World as a cash cow?

[okie52]

What ! Wait !

Couldn't we just cede Dade and Broward county to the North ? or Cuba ?

We're pretty conservative here in central and northwest Florida.

Besides, wouldn't you want to keep Disney World as a cash cow?

Well it worked for west Virginia and Virginia so why not Florida?

[diverdog]

Wouldn't be a need for a civil war to enforce the law...or do you yankees not understand that?

best estimate is there are over 1,000,000 illegals in Texas alone. About 35% of Texas population is Hispanic or has hispanic ancestory. You can yap all you want about enforcing the law but with that many like minded voters I bet you will see the law changed before a single Mexican is sent home.

[diverdog]

Blah blah blah....I guess that mass exodus to the south from the north would stop because of all those anti business laws in the south. California is trying to stop the hemorrhaging as businesses leave that anti business state. The poor south couldn't get by without Cali and ny sending them money. Cali needs all the help it can get when paying for all of the illegals comes due.

And the south wouldn't be poorer...all of that oil and gas production would be going just to the southern states...far more money than they ever see from ny or Cali...but I'm sure as good neighbors they'd be willing to sell it to you at a price lower than OPEC .

Keep living your pipe dream. Hell Madoff bilked more money out of people than you produce in energy each year. :).

[okie52]

best estimate is there are over 1,000,000 illegals in Texas alone. About 35% of Texas population is Hispanic or has hispanic ancestory. You can yap all you want about enforcing the law but with that many like minded voters I bet you will see the law changed before a single Mexican is sent home.

Well that all depends on how the new "nation" chooses to handle its borders and citizenship. If it is up to a vote of the "new confederacy" the illegals would be gone in a matter of months. Even if it is left to Texans, 35% (of which 30% usually vote pub) won't change the existing law.

Adios, hasta luego...

[okie52]

Keep living your pipe dream. Hell Madoff bilked more money out of people than you produce in energy each year. :).

Ha!! We'll leave you Madoff and take all of the gulf oil and gas.

[okie52]

BTW DD-thanks to the cold winter you yankees are having NG is trading at $4.86 an MCF. Brrrr and thank you!!!

[jkjsooner]

If you aren't enlightened you must be a looney...really no other explanation.

No, if you're seriously talking about secession then you're a looney.

Luckily for us, most conservatives aren't loonies.

[jkjsooner]

Well it worked for west Virginia and Virginia so why not Florida?

I'd betcha that would happen in Texas as well. There's no way Austin is going with you guys. I doubt Dallas would either.

[jkjsooner]

So you can make that statement carte Blanche?

Well, if it ever came to states really wanting to secede I would assume there would be some very good reasons for it...

I'm talking about the people who have serious thoughts or wet dreams about it right now.

[okie52]

I'd betcha that would happen in Texas as well. There's no way Austin is going with you guys. I doubt Dallas would either.

LOL...Think that's the way it would work? Better get some more skoolin.

[okie52]

No, if you're seriously talking about secession then you're a looney.

Luckily for us, most conservatives aren't loonies.

Seriously...I might "talk" about secession.

But I certainly don't want you to think I'm a looney...I might just not make it through the day.

[okie52]

I'm talking about the people who have serious thoughts or wet dreams about it right now.

"Squirt"

[okie52]

Memo to the South: Go Ahead, Secede Already!
Let’s face it—on nearly every important issue, from gun control to immigration to gay marriage, red states are holding America back. Lee Siegel on why the South should get the hell out of the union.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/04/30/memo-to-the-south-go-ahead-secede-already.html

Now I don't agree with this guy on much but if his "views" are representative of the North then by all means...it's time for the south to secede and let the north "prosper".

His vision of utopia:


Just think what America would look like without its mostly Southern states. (We could retain “America”: they could call themselves “Smith & Wesson” or “Coca-Cola” or something like that.) Universal health care. No guns. Strong unions. A humane minimum wage. A humane immigration policy. High revenues from a fair tax structure. A massive public-works program. Legal gay marriage. A ban on carbon emissions. Electric cars. Stronger workplace protections. Extended family leave from work in case of pregnancy or illness. Longer unemployment benefits. In short, a society on a par with most of the rest of the industrialized world—a place whose politics have finally caught up with its social and economic realities.

[okie52]

This guy takes a more humorous look at it:

Secession: A Cure for America


Our Civil War obviously didn't solve the problems between conservatives and liberals. Conservatives still hate strong federal government and love the NRA, rabble rousers and a privileged class. Liberals still want the government to help the less fortunate and minorities, more than they would do for their own middle class who's footing the bill, and to level the playing field... with artillery if necessary.

We again are at the point where compromise is impossible for each side; like in 1861 when South Carolina seceded. Conservatives fight progress (corporations have always possessed the inalienable right to influence elections); Liberals fight tradition (how can you call a Christmas tree a Christmas tree?). We fight each other, rather than the problems we face.

The only resolution is to let the disgruntled states secede. So I say please, please let them go! Let's not make the same mistake as 1861. Let no Lincoln arise to keep this unhappy, irreconcilable arrangement together; let them go! Just promise they'll take Ann Coulter with them.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-cooker/secession-a-cure-for-amer_b_2230722.html

[cvsooner]

The South seceded once. Didn't work out so well for them as I recall. This time I'm not so sure we'd fight to keep those states. Outside of Coca-Cola, there's not one thing I'd miss, honestly.

You seriously want to try it again? Be my guest. The caterwauling from that part of the world would be something to hear after a year or two.

[diverdog]

BTW DD-thanks to the cold winter you yankees are having NG is trading at $4.86 an MCF. Brrrr and thank you!!!

You do know that the yankee banks and federal government has a vice on the testicals of the great state of Oklahoma. Your $4 billion dollar portfolio is managed by JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Invesco and a bunch of US agency issues. Don't even get me started on your bond issues.

[okie52]

You do know that the yankee banks and federal government has a vice on the testicals of the great state of Oklahoma. Your $4 billion dollar portfolio is managed by JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Invesco and a bunch of US agency issues. Don't even get me started on your bond issues.

Those yankee banks love okie oil and gas...can't blame them. We are obviously a good investment.

[okie52]

The South seceded once. Didn't work out so well for them as I recall. This time I'm not so sure we'd fight to keep those states. Outside of Coca-Cola, there's not one thing I'd miss, honestly.

You seriously want to try it again? Be my guest. The caterwauling from that part of the world would be something to hear after a year or two.

Yeah, how I'd miss hearing from our northern cousins about trannies using the bathroom of their choice or their windmills not producing enough electricity to warm their cold little hearts during winter.

[cvsooner]

Last I looked, one county in California produces more oil than all of Oklahoma, plus we'd have North Dakota. Don't think they'll go along with you boys and girls.

[cvsooner]

Those yankee banks love okie oil and gas...can't blame them. We are obviously a good investment.

Or a bunch of suckers who like being taken advantage of and don't realize it.

[KantoSooner]

Well, my basic faith in human nature is rewarded: northern liberals are just as silly and wingnut-ish as southern neanderthals.

One thing that is clear is that a number of polarizing issues that have been abaking for a couple of generations are soon coming to a tipping point. Think back: 50 years ago, we as a country were dealing with black equality and women in the non-wartime workforce. Divorce was only just becoming socially acceptable and not a life-ending mark of Cain. Churches were slowly having their hands pried off of the levers of governmental power. Higher educationi, for all but a tiny elite, was becoming mainstream. It has taken all this time for those momentous changes to be digested, but all are, more or less, mainstream now.

I'll try to find a cite for you all, but I was reading recently in some poli sci journal an article that proposed that we are seeing the opening lip of the next wave of social change in the country. In that author's opinion, legalized pot and gay marriage are only the opening issues in what will likely be a period as dislocating and uncomfortable and fertile and stimulating as the 1960's. And that the theme, if one will, will be adjustment to a post industrial economy, a multi-polar world (but one under the socio-economic rubric of the post WWII Bretton Woods Consensus - not one fundamentally split along ideological lines) and a permanently fractured polity.

The author's take was that a central coalition would likely emerge to push a somewhat libertarian agenda socially with a more localized emphasis in government and taxation. If that happens, the future may not be the dystopian wasteland it seems popular to forecast these days.

[Curly Bill]

Or a bunch of suckers who like being taken advantage of and don't realize it.

Good thing there are those more enlightened individuals like you among us to look after the poor suckers.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I overheard something my brother was talking about to one of his friends. He was reading something like 24 states are wanting to secede from the United States (or at least their citizens are).

States like Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas, Missouri, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, New Hampshire, New Jersey, etc. I didnt catch the rest of them.

So when I heard this, I decided to go to google and see what I could find.

Found that the white house has denied petitions on this matter.

Also found this:

http://www.policymic.com/articles/18946/obama-secession-citizens-from-18-states-ask-president-to-secede-from-the-union

take it all with a grain of salt.

My point? Well, I was wondering if you would support your state if they happened to secede from the union?

Yes. And, it isn't even close.

[diverdog]

Those yankee banks love okie oil and gas...can't blame them. We are obviously a good investment.

Okie:

It ain't that much. Hell JP Morgans income is triple what you guys produce. Tiny Delaware has a $1.9 billion dollar portfolio.

What are you going to do when those petro dollars dry up? ,)

[diverdog]

Well, my basic faith in human nature is rewarded: northern liberals are just as silly and wingnut-ish as southern neanderthals.

One thing that is clear is that a number of polarizing issues that have been abaking for a couple of generations are soon coming to a tipping point. Think back: 50 years ago, we as a country were dealing with black equality and women in the non-wartime workforce. Divorce was only just becoming socially acceptable and not a life-ending mark of Cain. Churches were slowly having their hands pried off of the levers of governmental power. Higher educationi, for all but a tiny elite, was becoming mainstream. It has taken all this time for those momentous changes to be digested, but all are, more or less, mainstream now.

I'll try to find a cite for you all, but I was reading recently in some poli sci journal an article that proposed that we are seeing the opening lip of the next wave of social change in the country. In that author's opinion, legalized pot and gay marriage are only the opening issues in what will likely be a period as dislocating and uncomfortable and fertile and stimulating as the 1960's. And that the theme, if one will, will be adjustment to a post industrial economy, a multi-polar world (but one under the socio-economic rubric of the post WWII Bretton Woods Consensus - not one fundamentally split along ideological lines) and a permanently fractured polity.

The author's take was that a central coalition would likely emerge to push a somewhat libertarian agenda socially with a more localized emphasis in government and taxation. If that happens, the future may not be the dystopian wasteland it seems popular to forecast these days.

Americans love to bellyache about something. Most of us have no idea how good we got it.

[Curly Bill]

Okie:

It ain't that much. Hell JP Morgans income is triple what you guys produce. Tiny Delaware has a $1.9 billion dollar portfolio.

What are you going to do when those petro dollars dry up? ,)

We'll just invade the North and take whatever we want! Bunch of wimps up there, so whose to stop us?

[diverdog]

We'll just invade the North and take whatever we want! Bunch of wimps up there, so whose to stop us?

Right. I will put backwoods Mainer against any loudmouth from Texas.

[Curly Bill]

Right. I will put backwoods Mainer against any loudmouth from Texas.

Works for me! Besides that, I doubt the backwoods Mainers would be real fired up to fight for a bunch of mini van driving, handwringing bunch of progressives anyway!

[KantoSooner]

You're right there. Maine, UP of Michigan, Minnesooooooooda outside of the twin cities, lots of places in the blue world don't fit as bad as Austin and Fayetteville don't fit in redland.

[okie52]

Last I looked, one county in California produces more oil than all of Oklahoma, plus we'd have North Dakota. Don't think they'll go along with you boys and girls.

Hows the math up there in Yankee land? The US imports half of its oil. 25% of the US oil comes from the gulf coast. TX is 1st in oil production, OK is 5th in onshore production. 1st and 4th in NG production. Californians can't be trusted to even produce what they've got...they'll be jumping on your windmill bandwagon.

North dakota? Hard to say if they would stick with an anti oil and gas country or go with one that appreciates it.

[diverdog]

Works for me! Besides that, I doubt the backwoods Mainers would be real fired up to fight for a bunch of mini van driving, handwringing bunch of progressives anyway!

I have lived in the deep south (Texas and Alabama) and the north Maine. The people in the north are far nastier than anyone in the south. The weather is the equalizer. And if history proves anything the folks from northern climates generally win out.

[cvsooner]

Works for me! Besides that, I doubt the backwoods Mainers would be real fired up to fight for a bunch of mini van driving, handwringing bunch of progressives anyway!

Hey, that was done at Gettysburg. Maine has scoreboard.

Besides, Texans have been lying about the Alamo since day one, casting themselves as brave winners and patriots. They were fighting for the freedom to own slaves.

[cvsooner]

Good thing there are those more enlightened individuals like you among us to look after the poor suckers.

Not this cat. If you want to get taken advantage of, less power to you.

I'm not watching out for nobody but myself and my family, but I do vote for policy that improves the lot of EVERYONE, and not solely the top of the income pyramid.

[Curly Bill]

Hey, that was done at Gettysburg. Maine has scoreboard.

Besides, Texans have been lying about the Alamo since day one, casting themselves as brave winners and patriots. They were fighting for the freedom to own slaves.

LOL

[Curly Bill]

Not this cat. If you want to get taken advantage of, less power to you.

I'm not watching out for nobody but myself and my family, but I do vote for policy that improves the lot of EVERYONE, and not solely the top of the income pyramid.

Well, that's awfully sweet!

[diverdog]

You're right there. Maine, UP of Michigan, Minnesooooooooda outside of the twin cities, lots of places in the blue world don't fit as bad as Austin and Fayetteville don't fit in redland.

All I know is the people in the interior of Maine hate everyone. It gets worse in the winter.

[Curly Bill]

All I know is the people in the interior of Maine hate everyone. It gets worse in the winter.

This I can respect!

[okie52]

Okie:

It ain't that much. Hell JP Morgans income is triple what you guys produce. Tiny Delaware has a $1.9 billion dollar portfolio.

What are you going to do when those petro dollars dry up? ,)

Triple the state of OK?...LOL...not according to their annual report.

What are you going to do in Delaware when global warming floods your state?

[okie52]

Not this cat. If you want to get taken advantage of, less power to you.

I'm not watching out for nobody but myself and my family, but I do vote for policy that improves the lot of EVERYONE, and not solely the top of the income pyramid.

So your a wealth redistributor....er that is redistributing someone else's wealth. That about sum it up?

[cvsooner]

In a modern and humane society, we're all wealth redistributors. You ever buy an insurance policy? Risk pool? That's redistribution. Pay taxes for law enforcement or the military? That's redistribution.

[okie52]

In a modern and humane society, we're all wealth redistributors. You ever buy an insurance policy? Risk pool? That's redistribution. Pay taxes for law enforcement or the military? That's redistribution.

Except the insurance policy is voluntary and based on the risk...it is the risk that is being redistributed not the wealth. A rich person pays no more than a poor person for the same risk.

In a modern and humane society? That wealth redistribution means half don't pay Federal income taxes...that the one you are referring to?

[okie52]

I have lived in the deep south (Texas and Alabama) and the north Maine. The people in the north are far nastier than anyone in the south. The weather is the equalizer. And if history proves anything the folks from northern climates generally win out.


In rural Maine, a life of solitude and larceny

Police say hermit stole to survive 27 years in woods

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/maine/2013/05/25/north-pond-hermit-discovered-arrested-after-years-maine-woods/xSXsUlDOQVhqUMb8nkslxN/story.html

[cvsooner]

Except the insurance policy is voluntary and based on the risk...it is the risk that is being redistributed not the wealth. A rich person pays no more than a poor person for the same risk.

In a modern and humane society? That wealth redistribution means half don't pay Federal income taxes...that the one you are referring to?

Auto insurance isn't mandatory in Oklahoma? The wealth is being distributed to a pool to mitigate the risk under the presumption that the vast majority will never need to file a claim.

And the Federal income tax issue: you only pay if your income is high enough, in theory, anyway. There are also the very wealthy who also pay no federal income tax.

[OU68]

Much as I hate to agree with a Yankee - Russia/Napoleon & Hitler -- don't screw with a country/state that lives mostly sub-zero.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I'm not watching out for nobody but myself and my family, but I do vote for policy that improves the lot of EVERYONE, and not solely the top of the income pyramid.

Then you vote for the ruination of this country if you are not voting for personal responsibility and capitalism. You vote for leftist ideas, confiscatory tax schemes and income seizure, you are voting against the country foundations.

[okie52]

Auto insurance isn't mandatory in Oklahoma? The wealth is being distributed to a pool to mitigate the risk under the presumption that the vast majority will never need to file a claim.

And the Federal income tax issue: you only pay if your income is high enough, in theory, anyway. There are also the very wealthy who also pay no federal income tax.

Auto insurance is only madatory if you are going to drive. There is no wealth redistribution. The rates are based on the risk and underwriting history for that risk. It is, as I previously said, a risk distribution. Everyone with the same risk gets the same rate...doesn't matter if you are rich or poor.

When half of the country doesn't pay federal income tax its really hard to be sympathetic to their bitching...particularly when they are usually receiving federal assistance while paying nothing into the system.

The top 10% pay 70% of the taxes...yet many think they aren't doing their fair share....

[okie52]

Much as I hate to agree with a Yankee - Russia/Napoleon & Hitler -- don't screw with a country/state that lives mostly sub-zero.

Angry, bitter people....

[KantoSooner]

Much as I hate to agree with a Yankee - Russia/Napoleon & Hitler -- don't screw with a country/state that lives mostly sub-zero.

Those happy fun loving Romans did okay for what? 750 years? Put paid to the Celts at any rate.

[okie52]

Those happy fun loving Romans did okay for what? 750 years? Put paid to the Celts at any rate.

Greeks did okay too.

[Curly Bill]

Alexander and crew weren't hanging out in Siberia themselves.

Nor the Hittites, the Persians, the Assyrians......

[diverdog]

Triple the state of OK?...LOL...not according to their annual report.

What are you going to do in Delaware when global warming floods your state?

No triple of your energy output in terms of annual revenues. $100 billion vs $35 billion. JP's revenues are two thirds of the State of Oklahomas GDP. And JP earned a net income of $21.3 billion. Face it the economy in Oklahoma is not very big. It is roughly triple of tiny Delawares economy and you have 3 million more people. Your gdp production per capita is low. You guys need some yankees down there cracking the whips and get people working harder.

pfft Global Warming. Our windmills will solve that problem .

[cvsooner]

Auto insurance is only madatory if you are going to drive. There is no wealth redistribution. The rates are based on the risk and underwriting history for that risk. It is, as I previously said, a risk distribution. Everyone with the same risk gets the same rate...doesn't matter if you are rich or poor.

When half of the country doesn't pay federal income tax its really hard to be sympathetic to their bitching...particularly when they are usually receiving federal assistance while paying nothing into the system.

The top 10% pay 70% of the taxes...yet many think they aren't doing their fair share....

They also have 80 percent of the income and wealth. And while the poorer citizens may not earn enough to pay income taxes (how about increasing their wages?), they certainly pay taxes....plenty of them. Sales, excise, fuel, unemployment insurance, Medicare, etc., etc.

While I know it's widely touted that income taxes are highly progressive and, furthermore, that the top several percent of income earners pay most of the taxes received by the federal government, both ideas are incorrect in my view because they focus on official, rather than "effective" tax rates and ignore payroll taxes, which are mostly paid by those with incomes below $100,000 per year.

Even high earners pay lower rates on the first thousands of dollars, higher rates as income rises. Plus, again, lots of deductions and credits available to the point that many do indeed avoid paying 'fair' rates, fair being a subjective term between what I think is fair vs. what you think is fair.

While I can concede some ground on the insurance argument, it is still redistribution, as are all pool efforts. Heck, starting a bank...many investments...are redistribution. I'm not sure that word means what you think it means.

[diverdog]

Much as I hate to agree with a Yankee - Russia/Napoleon & Hitler -- don't screw with a country/state that lives mostly sub-zero.

You guys do know that I was actually born in Wyoming and lived half my life in the south. And technically Delaware is mostly south of the Mason Dixon line, owned slaves and would have sided with south if not for its location.

I actually love southern traditions but I think it would be crazy to split this nation up.

Still I can't resist jawing with Okie52.

[Curly Bill]

You guys do know that I was actually born in Wyoming and lived half my life in the south. And technically Delaware is mostly south of the Mason Dixon line, owned slaves and would have sided with south if not for its location.

I actually love southern traditions but I think it would be crazy to split this nation up.

Still I can't resist jawing with Okie52.

The way things are going I truly think it's a coin toss whether it would be better or worse. Hopefully some things can be straightened out in November, and we can move on from there.

[cvsooner]

The way things are going I truly think it's a coin toss whether it would be better or worse. Hopefully some things can be straightened out in November, and we can move on from there.

Yep. Once the Democrats retake the House, hold the Senate, and the Presidency and Alito and Scalia retire from the Court. :excitement:

[okie52]

No triple of your energy output in terms of annual revenues. $100 billion vs $35 billion. JP's revenues are two thirds of the State of Oklahomas GDP. And JP earned a net income of $21.3 billion. Face it the economy in Oklahoma is not very big. It is roughly triple of tiny Delawares economy and you have 3 million more people. Your gdp production per capita is low. You guys need some yankees down there cracking the whips and get people working harder.

Heh...you're looking at 2012...JPM dropped down to 17.4 net income in 2013.

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/jpm/financials

Our GDP to now has been lower but then we are actually growing...unlike delaware and our cost of living is far less than you yankee boys in the NE face. You should be happy getting rid of us...no more paying out more than you put into the feds...

[Curly Bill]

Yep. Once the Democrats retake the House, hold the Senate, and the Presidency and Alito and Scalia retire from the Court. :excitement:

Yeah, that happens and I might personally lead the secession charge! I mean, at that point there wouldn't be anything to lose anyway.

[KantoSooner]

The labels long ago ceased to have any meaning. Connecticut used to have the largest KKK membership in the country (early 1980's), Go to Barstow, CA if you want to meet the most retrograde Okies in creation, etc.

[diverdog]

Heh...you're looking at 2012...JPM dropped down to 17.4 net income in 2013.

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/jpm/financials

Our GDP to now has been lower but then we are actually growing...unlike delaware and our cost of living is far less than you yankee boys in the NE face. You should be happy getting rid of us...no more paying out more than you put into the feds...

It depends on where you live in Delaware. My county has really suffered economically. Northern Delaware is starting to boom and our beach areas are doing better. The real bright spot is that the state has very good management. Pensions and benefits are fully funded and solvent. We did not take on debt during the recession. The big killers have been the loss of two auto manufacturers and the housing market. I could say 3 auto manufacturers if you throw in Fisker.

[okie52]

They also have 80 percent of the income and wealth. And while the poorer citizens may not earn enough to pay income taxes (how about increasing their wages?), they certainly pay taxes....plenty of them. Sales, excise, fuel, unemployment insurance, Medicare, etc., etc.

While I know it's widely touted that income taxes are highly progressive and, furthermore, that the top several percent of income earners pay most of the taxes received by the federal government, both ideas are incorrect in my view because they focus on official, rather than "effective" tax rates and ignore payroll taxes, which are mostly paid by those with incomes below $100,000 per year.

Even high earners pay lower rates on the first thousands of dollars, higher rates as income rises. Plus, again, lots of deductions and credits available to the point that many do indeed avoid paying 'fair' rates, fair being a subjective term between what I think is fair vs. what you think is fair.

While I can concede some ground on the insurance argument, it is still redistribution, as are all pool efforts. Heck, starting a bank...many investments...are redistribution. I'm not sure that word means what you think it means.

So because they pay sales taxes (everybody does), medicare, SS, (benefits for themselves that they will receive more than they put into it), etc...etc.. etc...

Payroll taxes are a benefit for the employee and the low wage earner will receive more than he ever puts into it...proportionately speaking, compared to a wage earner that hits the cap.

I'm not sure redistribution means what you think it does. Pooling resources isn't the same thing as redistributing wealth...it is usually lessening the risk while strengthening your capital position. It isn't taking from high earner A and giving it to low earner B. Who the **** would want to invest in that scheme.

[okie52]

Yep. Once the Democrats retake the House, hold the Senate, and the Presidency and Alito and Scalia retire from the Court. :excitement:

With the exception of the SC, you had all of that and more in 2008...But its really going to be good this time?

[Curly Bill]

So because they pay sales taxes (everybody does), medicare, SS, (benefits for themselves that they will receive more than they put into it), etc...etc.. etc...

Payroll taxes are a benefit for the employee and the low wage earner will receive more than he ever puts into it...proportionately speaking, compared to a wage earner that hits the cap.

I'm not sure redistribution means what you think it does. Pooling resources isn't the same thing as redistributing wealth...it is usually lessening the risk while strengthening your capital position. It isn't taking from high earner A and giving it to low earner B. Who the **** would want to invest in that scheme.

The losers on the bottom of the "pyramid" or those trying to earn their votes.

[okie52]

You guys do know that I was actually born in Wyoming and lived half my life in the south. And technically Delaware is mostly south of the Mason Dixon line, owned slaves and would have sided with south if not for its location.

I actually love southern traditions but I think it would be crazy to split this nation up.

Still I can't resist jawing with Okie52.

You've been in DE too long DD...and please don't try to make Biden country a part of the south...

[okie52]

The losers on the bottom of the "pyramid" or those trying to earn their votes.

They do have Madoff up there....

[diverdog]

The labels long ago ceased to have any meaning. Connecticut used to have the largest KKK membership in the country (early 1980's), Go to Barstow, CA if you want to meet the most retrograde Okies in creation, etc.

Mass is as racist as any place I have visited. So is Southern Delaware.

[diverdog]

You've been in DE too long DD...and please don't try to make Biden country a part of the south...

When we first moved here it was not very liberal. Lots of folks moved in and changed the place. Pete DuPont the founder of GOPAC was our Governor and to this date my favorite governor.

[FaninAma]

Well, my basic faith in human nature is rewarded: northern liberals are just as silly and wingnut-ish as southern neanderthals.

One thing that is clear is that a number of polarizing issues that have been abaking for a couple of generations are soon coming to a tipping point. Think back: 50 years ago, we as a country were dealing with black equality and women in the non-wartime workforce. Divorce was only just becoming socially acceptable and not a life-ending mark of Cain. Churches were slowly having their hands pried off of the levers of governmental power. Higher educationi, for all but a tiny elite, was becoming mainstream. It has taken all this time for those momentous changes to be digested, but all are, more or less, mainstream now.

I'll try to find a cite for you all, but I was reading recently in some poli sci journal an article that proposed that we are seeing the opening lip of the next wave of social change in the country. In that author's opinion, legalized pot and gay marriage are only the opening issues in what will likely be a period as dislocating and uncomfortable and fertile and stimulating as the 1960's. And that the theme, if one will, will be adjustment to a post industrial economy, a multi-polar world (but one under the socio-economic rubric of the post WWII Bretton Woods Consensus - not one fundamentally split along ideological lines) and a permanently fractured polity.

The author's take was that a central coalition would likely emerge to push a somewhat libertarian agenda socially with a more localized emphasis in government and taxation. If that happens, the future may not be the dystopian wasteland it seems popular to forecast these days.For all decisions there are consequences. We shall see what the consequences will be for the country as a result of the hard left tact some states have taken.

Hope he is right about the localization of politics.

[FaninAma]

When we first moved here it was not very liberal. Lots of folks moved in and changed the place. Pete DuPont the founder of GOPAC was our Governor and to this date my favorite governor.Delaware has the most corrupt bankruptcy court system in the country.So you got that going for you.

[KantoSooner]

Yeah, that happens and I might personally lead the secession charge! I mean, at that point there wouldn't be anything to lose anyway.

You, sir, are obviously not an appreciator of government cheese.

[diverdog]

Delaware has the most corrupt bankruptcy court system iin the country.So you got that going for you.

****ing A bubba. Talk about a cash cow.

[FaninAma]

Yep. Once the Democrats retake the House, hold the Senate, and the Presidency and Alito and Scalia retire from the Court. :excitement:California will look like Detroit by that time.

[FaninAma]

****ing A bubba. Talk about a cash cow.

No doubt, brother, no doubt.

[cvsooner]

California will look like Detroit by that time.

I know that's your wet dream, but right now we look more like Amarillo....windy and blowing dust like crazy.

We're not Detroit. We'll never be Detroit.

[FaninAma]

I know that's your wet dream, but right now we look more like Amarillo....windy and blowing dust like crazy.

We're not Detroit. We'll never be Detroit.

Detroit didn't think they would end up like Detroit, either.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-07-03/why-are-californias-businesses-disappearing

Amarillo, unlike several munincipalities in California, isn't declaring bankruptcy.

[TAFBSooner]

This guy takes a more humorous look at it:

Secession: A Cure for America



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-cooker/secession-a-cure-for-amer_b_2230722.html

And if a couple of articles aren't enough:

http://www.amazon.com/Better-Off-Without-Manifesto-Secession/dp/145161666X


From the southern side:

http://www.amazon.com/South-Right-James-Ronald-Kennedy/dp/1565540247/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390520475&sr=8-1&keywords=The+South+was+Right

[cvsooner]

Detroit didn't think they would end up like Detroit, either.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-07-03/why-are-californias-businesses-disappearing

Amarillo, unlike several munincipalities in California, isn't declaring bankruptcy.

You remind me of the guys who've been predicting runaway inflation for six or seven years now.

[cvsooner]

I actually have that 'Better Off Without 'Em' book. It's pretty funny and quite good. Especially the chapter on the SEC.

[okie52]

And if a couple of articles aren't enough:

http://www.amazon.com/Better-Off-Without-Manifesto-Secession/dp/145161666X


From the southern side:

http://www.amazon.com/South-Right-James-Ronald-Kennedy/dp/1565540247/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390520475&sr=8-1&keywords=The+South+was+Right

Good balance....it's obvious for the last 180 years the north and south just really don't get along.

[FaninAma]

Are you referring to OK?

You know that state that gets more in federal funding than it pays out...

Sounds like a great idea.
Actually that's not accurate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_taxation_and_spending_by_state

[FaninAma]

You remind me of the guys who've been predicting runaway inflation for six or seven years now.
Yeah, you're rght. There has been no inflation in this country for the past 6 or 7 years unless you don't include food and energy. Oh, that's right. The Feds don't include those items on their CPI calculations.

The biggest area of inflation right now is in the equity markets.
.

[BigTip]

Interesting thread! lol

Why is there succession talk as opposed to revolution talk?
I have said before that the revolution will be started by the haves tryin to hold on from the have nots.
Unlike the Russian revolution, started by the have nots, trying to get some of what the haves had.

Don't split the country in two. Just have a revolt and start over. Have an army based dictator cut the government into about a tenth of what it is now. Fix the constitution some how so that the populus can't vote themselves more money from the public treasury than the public treasury has. Then start the new republic.

Easy peasy.

[yermom]

what do the haves have to revolt about?

[BigTip]

what do the haves have to revolt about?

The have nots voting themselves more and more of what the haves have.
There are more takers now than there are givers.
The haves do not have any legal way now to protect what they have.

[yermom]

revolutions don't work from the top down

the people with money are getting richer. if you think other wise, you are being misled.

no one at the top wants anything to change that drastically

[hawaii 5-0]

"One Nation, under God, indivisible.........."



Just sayin'..........


It ain't gonna happen.


5-0

[TAFBSooner]

what do the haves have to revolt about?

They read history, and know what often happens when the elite get most of the money, and the middle classes start seeing themselves sliding toward the bottom. The financial elite have built the most elaborate system they're capable of to try to prevent history from rhyming yet one more verse.

or, it could be as simple as regular people are starting to complain, and the 1% are getting their feelers hurt. Entitled much?

[okie52]

or, it could be as simple as regular people are starting to complain, and the 1% are getting their feelers hurt. Entitled much?

The only ones I hear entitled in this thread are those demanding more of someone else's money...