Once again...Florida/Deep South football players get best of Texas-filled roster

[Tear Down This Wall]

Argued this way back in the early season. UCF, in a conference being kicked out of Monopoly-Favored status, whips Baylor.

I said months ago that Mack Brown's problem was that signing the best 25 players in Texas didn't necessarily mean signing the best 25 in the country. To me, Texas schools put all their eggs in one basket by putting so much emphasis on Texas preps.

UCF, a school almost exclusively filled with Florida and Georgia preps, ran Texas-heavy Baylor out of the Fiesta Bowl.

The Texas Longhorns will continue to crap their pants against top competition if they hire a coach who does not understand that college football success does not begin and end with Texas prep football players. Far from. Far. From.

[Temujin]

Argued this way back in the early season. UCF, in a conference being kicked out of Monopoly-Favored status, whips Baylor.

I said months ago that Mack Brown's problem was that signing the best 25 players in Texas didn't necessarily mean signing the best 25 in the country. To me, Texas schools put all their eggs in one basket by putting so much emphasis on Texas preps.

UCF, a school almost exclusively filled with Florida and Georgia preps, ran Texas-heavy Baylor out of the Fiesta Bowl.

The Texas Longhorns will continue to crap their pants against top competition if they hire a coach who does not understand that college football success does not begin and end with Texas prep football players. Far from. Far. From.

I kind of agree, but I think it might be more complicated than that. Certainly no one would disagree that Texas is an important place to recruit. But I think it's been pointed out here recently that there are a few other states that are experiencing a boon in talent the last few years - particularly Alabama and Florida. That would certainly explain the current run by Auburn/Alabama/Florida State, even UCF.

On top of that, the competition for recruits in Texas is MUCH hotter than it used to be. Before you had mainly OU and UT fighting for elite talents in the state. But now you have Texas A&M, Baylor, and a whole host of SEC schools picking off recruits from that state. OSU and others have a stronger presence in the state as well. UT's tendency to recruit only their state doesn't always mean they're going to get the best of the best like they used to. Naturally that means that they need to branch out, like you said.

So I agree, that teams can't entirely rely on Texas talent to get the job done...I just don't think it's because of a lack of talent so much as it's harder to recruit Texas than it used to be. Besides that, Texas just sucks. Even if they had NFL talent, they'd find a way to screw it up. ;)

[picasso]

How bout all them Florida players for the Pokes that whupped up on them Baylors?
Mmm yeah.

[badger]

It's an easy trap to get suckered into --- everyone favoring you by multiple scores and then forgetting to show up on gameday. We had the same problem back in October in Dallas :(

Baylor still had a good season. We certainly know what it's like to get beat by a no-name in the Fiesta Bowl, so my condolences.

Nah not really you guys beat us earlier this season. nyah nyah no ugly trophy for you!

[Temujin]

I've always hated the Fiesta Bowl for the Big 12 anyway. We were an Orange bowl conference back in the Big 8 days - much better than these lame duck matchups they've been sticking us with in the desert.

[UteSooner]

I've always hated the Fiesta Bowl for the Big 12 anyway. We were an Orange bowl conference back in the Big 8 days - much better than these lame duck matchups they've been sticking us with in the desert.

Fiesta sucks. I look forward to next year and beyond. Even the Alamo Bowl will be a better matchup for the Big 12 (and that will come after the playoff, the Sugar Bowl, and the at-large "BCS" berths).

[BoulderSooner79]

I'm not sure I get the complaint against the Fiesta. Folks want a bowl that the conference is guaranteed to win or one where when they get pounded its from a "brand" school? I can understand not liking location or logistics, but every bowl has been faced with "last pick" during the BCS era. Remember Hawaii in the Sugar? NIU last year where ever it was? There have been plenty of good match-ups in the Fiesta including the one last night. The only really bad one I can remember was Uconn. The conference winner just needs to play their best and win a few of these regardless of where it is located.

[OUinFLA]

The Fiesta has the ugliest trophy.
Teams really don't want to own it.

[Tear Down This Wall]

How bout all them Florida players for the Pokes that whupped up on them Baylors?
Mmm yeah.

And, here is the essence of why the Southwest Conference failed, and why the Big 12 is now failing: the belief that beating schools that can't compete against national competition is important.

Oklahoma State - Baylor does nothing but prove my point. You've got two rosters chock full of Texas kids. What good did it do either one of them. OSU now has 30 more players from Texas than we do, and they've beaten us once in 11 years.

Baylor, the supposed cream of the Big 12, was run into the ground by a school who shares a conference with SMU.

[Temujin]

I'm not sure I get the complaint against the Fiesta. Folks want a bowl that the conference is guaranteed to win or one where when they get pounded its from a "brand" school? I can understand not liking location or logistics, but every bowl has been faced with "last pick" during the BCS era. Remember Hawaii in the Sugar? NIU last year where ever it was? There have been plenty of good match-ups in the Fiesta including the one last night. The only really bad one I can remember was Uconn. The conference winner just needs to play their best and win a few of these regardless of where it is located.

Meh, the BCS...that's not what I'm talking about. Sure, each BCS game gets a lame duck here and there, especially with expansion of the bowls. The Orange Bowl just means a lot more to me historically speaking. Penn State, Miami, Florida State, Notre Dame...lots of great Big 8/12 games with other conferences, lots of national championship-type games. Tossing Oranges on the field when beating Nebraska for the conference. It's on par with the Rose as far as tradition goes. The only memory I have of the Fiesta was when I was laughing my *** off when Arizona destroyed Miami 29-0 in the 90s. A great memory, no doubt. But nothing compared to the Orange.

[badger]

The Fiesta has the ugliest trophy.
Teams really don't want to own it.

True :)

[Tear Down This Wall]

I kind of agree, but I think it might be more complicated than that. Certainly no one would disagree that Texas is an important place to recruit. But I think it's been pointed out here recently that there are a few other states that are experiencing a boon in talent the last few years - particularly Alabama and Florida. That would certainly explain the current run by Auburn/Alabama/Florida State, even UCF.

On top of that, the competition for recruits in Texas is MUCH hotter than it used to be. Before you had mainly OU and UT fighting for elite talents in the state. But now you have Texas A&M, Baylor, and a whole host of SEC schools picking off recruits from that state. OSU and others have a stronger presence in the state as well. UT's tendency to recruit only their state doesn't always mean they're going to get the best of the best like they used to. Naturally that means that they need to branch out, like you said.

So I agree, that teams can't entirely rely on Texas talent to get the job done...I just don't think it's because of a lack of talent so much as it's harder to recruit Texas than it used to be. Besides that, Texas just sucks. Even if they had NFL talent, they'd find a way to screw it up. ;)

You are correct in that Texas is important. But, it's not so important that you abandon the rest of the country, the way Mack Brown did.

The overarching truth of Mack Brown's failure is Bob Stoops. Look at what Bob Stoops did during Mack Brown's tenure. With very few exceptions, Stoops owned Mack Brown and Texas.

But, he didn't do so with over-reliance on Texas preps. Stoops got what he needed out of Texas. But, OU get recruits from the entire country.

With Mack it was always Texas, Texas, Texas kids. Fine. Take the 25 or so best in Texas every year. Maybe one or two of them might also be the best in the country. Maybe.

If Texas talent was the be all, end all, the Southwest Conference wouldn't have died.

Again, look at the national champions over the past 30, 40 years: exactly one out of Texas, 10 out of Florida.

[oupride]

Thanks for the post.

[BoulderSooner79]

Meh, the BCS...that's not what I'm talking about. Sure, each BCS game gets a lame duck here and there, especially with expansion of the bowls. The Orange Bowl just means a lot more to me historically speaking. Penn State, Miami, Florida State, Notre Dame...lots of great Big 8/12 games with other conferences, lots of national championship-type games. Tossing Oranges on the field when beating Nebraska for the conference. It's on par with the Rose as far as tradition goes. The only memory I have of the Fiesta was when I was laughing my *** off when Arizona destroyed Miami 29-0 in the 90s. A great memory, no doubt. But nothing compared to the Orange.

Ah, so it's tradition and warm memories you seek. Not gonna happen as CFB is a fast changing landscape and the new playoffs will only accelerate that. We have had a pretty tradition rich matchup in the Cotton bowl over the last decade between the Big12 and SEC; and we have collectively gotten our a**es handed to us there. Tradition is made by a strong historical showing and the big12 has not been doing that.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Ah, so it's tradition and warm memories you seek. Not gonna happen as CFB is a fast changing landscape and the new playoffs will only accelerate that. We have had a pretty tradition rich matchup in the Cotton bowl over the last decade between the Big12 and SEC; and we have collectively gotten our a**es handed to us there. Tradition is made by a strong historical showing and the big12 has not been doing that.

Big 12 is the new SWC...plus West Virginia. What a bargain.

[SoonerMarkVA]

The Fiesta is the ugly girl who ended up pushing her way in with the hot chicks. The Rose, Orange, and Sugar all are deep-tradition bowls, and the Cotton was the 4th of those that Dallas inexplicably let be pushed out of the discussion. The idiom "putting perfume on a pig" comes to mind when considering the Fiesta bowl, and *of course* the XII got stuck with it. Our tie-in should have remained the Orange bowl.

[BoulderSooner79]

The Fiesta is the ugly girl who ended up pushing her way in with the hot chicks. The Rose, Orange, and Sugar all are deep-tradition bowls, and the Cotton was the 4th of those that Dallas inexplicably let be pushed out of the discussion. The idiom "putting perfume on a pig" comes to mind when considering the Fiesta bowl, and *of course* the XII got stuck with it. Our tie-in should have remained the Orange bowl.

The Fiesta is in the rotation in the new playoff format. Teams will covet getting there as much as any other location during those years.

[Eielson]

So it's not okay for Texas schools to recruit completely in Texas, but it's okay for Florida schools to recruit completely in Florida?

[SoonerMarkVA]

Teams would covet playing the Meineke muffler bowl if it was a playoff game. That doesn't say crap about what a great bowl it is.

[Ton Loc]

Wait...one state (Texas) doesn't have all the best recruits in the country and its best to branch out when you recruit?

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/4680380/at-t-infinity-mind-blown-o.gif

[BoulderSooner79]

Teams would covet playing the Meineke muffler bowl if it was a playoff game. That doesn't say crap about what a great bowl it is.

My point exactly - the playoffs change whatever tradition is out there. Especially when it inevitably goes to 8 teams.

I just think it's strange to see all the complaints against the Fiesta when that tie-in just ended anyway. And it really seems bizarre to complain about the match-ups right after our champ lost convincingly - can't say we didn't pull a quality team. And the Ducks pounded KSU last year. I hate to say it, but you have to go back to the '08 season when the horns beat a very good tOSU in a thriller to get the kind of tradition building game everyone wants. The problem seems to be the strength of the conference more than the location (see recent Cotton bowls too).

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I kind of agree, but I think it might be more complicated than that. Certainly no one would disagree that Texas is an important place to recruit. But I think it's been pointed out here recently that there are a few other states that are experiencing a boon in talent the last few years - particularly Alabama and Florida. That would certainly explain the current run by Auburn/Alabama/Florida State, even UCF.

On top of that, the competition for recruits in Texas is MUCH hotter than it used to be. Before you had mainly OU and UT fighting for elite talents in the state. But now you have Texas A&M, Baylor, and a whole host of SEC schools picking off recruits from that state. OSU and others have a stronger presence in the state as well. UT's tendency to recruit only their state doesn't always mean they're going to get the best of the best like they used to. Naturally that means that they need to branch out, like you said.

So I agree, that teams can't entirely rely on Texas talent to get the job done...I just don't think it's because of a lack of talent so much as it's harder to recruit Texas than it used to be. Besides that, Texas just sucks. Even if they had NFL talent, they'd find a way to screw it up. ;)

The 2 states that have had booms are GA and AL.

In general, the way that recruits are ranked are as follows: FL -> TX -> CA. The way they are drafted is -> CA -> FL -> TX. The top 25 doesn't follow this pattern (shown below)

Now, looking at Tear's premise (Top 25 of each state) -> 3 drafts (so theoretically 75 possible Top 25s for each state)

FL -> 23 drafted, avg round 3.57, avg stars 4.17
CA -> 19 drafted, avg round 3.42, avg stars 4.32
TX -> 15 drafted, avg round 3.40, avg stars 4.27

[Jacie]

Why do some of us have zero respect for the Fiesta Bowl?

from Wiki:

In 2009, prior to the 2010 Fiesta Bowl, past and present Fiesta Bowl employees alleged that they were encouraged to help maintain its position as one of the four BCS bowls by making campaign contributions to politicians friendly to the Fiesta Bowl, with those contributions subsequently reimbursed to the employees. If true, this would be a violation of both state and Federal campaign finance laws. Furthermore, as a non-profit organization, the Fiesta Bowl is prohibited from making political contributions of any kind. The Fiesta Bowl commissioned an "independent review" which found "no credible evidence that the bowl's management engaged in any type of illegal or unethical conduct."

The following year, in a November 2010 article, Sports Illustrated reported that Fiesta Bowl officials, including bowl CEO John Junker, spent $4 million since 2000 to curry favor from BCS bigwigs and elected officials, including a 2008 "Fiesta Frolic", a golf-centered gathering of athletic directors and head coaches. The journal also reported that Junker's annual salary was close to $600,000 and that the bowl, in 2007 turned an $11.6 million profit. While these alleged activities are not illegal, they did result in considerable damage to the reputation of the Fiesta Bowl.

On March 29, 2011, the Fiesta Bowl Board of Directors released a 276 page "scathing internal report", commissioned by them to re-examine the accusations of illegal political activities.[10] The commission determined that $46,539 of illegal campaign contributions were made and the board immediately fired Fiesta Bowl CEO John Junker, who had already been suspended pending the results of this investigation. The scandal threatened the Fiesta Bowl's status as a BCS game, as the BCS said it might replace the bowl in its lineup if officials could not convince them it should remain.

The BCS ultimately chose not to expel the Fiesta Bowl, instead fining the organization $1 million. In June 2011 University of Arizona president Robert Shelton was hired to replace Junker.

On February 22, 2012, former CEO John Junker pleaded guilty to a federal felony charge in the campaign financing matter, and two members of his former staff pleaded guilty to misdemeanor charges. Junker goes to sentencing in late July 2012, facing up to 2.5 years in prison as the result of his plea.

[FaninAma]

The Big 12 is the new Big East.

[badger]

The Big 12 is the new Big East.

So we're gonna dominate this basketball season? :D

[Tear Down This Wall]

I'm not concerned with NFL draft picks, although I do enjoy jkm's analyses. My focus is on success in college football measured in championships.

And, so, to the question of why Florida heavy, not Texas heavy...again, look at the champions: 10 to 1, Florida schools versus Texas schools. And, that is going back to 1983, when Miami won their first for Florida, and all the way back to 1970 for Texas. I'm actually giving Texas schools a 13 season head start, and Florida schools still out-championship them 10 to 1!

And, if you then take that same time frame and add the championship won by Alabama, Auburn, LSU, Georgia...and, stretch up one state to Clemson's 1981 title? You are up to 19 to 1 national titles over schools who rely of Florida/Deep South talent over the Texas schools who swear by Texas talent.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Look at the starters on our last national title team...on offense, the only Texas starter was Q. On defense, the only starter from Texas was Strait.

It's not that Texas isn't important. It is to us because Oklahoma is so much smaller than Texas population-wise. But, we have always looked around the country and harvested the best from hither and yon.

And, look...I'm not upset about it EXCEPT as it related to our staying in the Big 12. I'm completely happy to watch Texas and Baylor flop. But, what I do not like is us having our cart hitched to small-minded schools, such as what is comprised of the imbeciles that once were the Southwest Conference.

[SoonerMarkVA]

My point exactly - the playoffs change whatever tradition is out there. Especially when it inevitably goes to 8 teams.

I just think it's strange to see all the complaints against the Fiesta when that tie-in just ended anyway. And it really seems bizarre to complain about the match-ups right after our champ lost convincingly - can't say we didn't pull a quality team. And the Ducks pounded KSU last year. I hate to say it, but you have to go back to the '08 season when the horns beat a very good tOSU in a thriller to get the kind of tradition building game everyone wants. The problem seems to be the strength of the conference more than the location (see recent Cotton bowls too).

I've been complaining about the Fiesta since our tie-in was announced. I agree, now is a time to rejoice that the tie-in is over. So, my complaint was less about the now, and more about continuing my complaint from the inception of the BCS.

I also agree the tradition aspect is overruled by getting a playoff. So, overall, we aren't disagreeing, unless you actually are a Fiesta bowl aficionado. I was just venting about the Fiesta bowl in general, if perhaps misplaced for the topic :)

[BoulderSooner79]

I've been complaining about the Fiesta since our tie-in was announced. I agree, now is a time to rejoice that the tie-in is over. So, my complaint was less about the now, and more about continuing my complaint from the inception of the BCS.

I also agree the tradition aspect is overruled by getting a playoff. So, overall, we aren't disagreeing, unless you actually are a Fiesta bowl aficionado. I was just venting about the Fiesta bowl in general, if perhaps misplaced for the topic :)

I definitely not a big Fiesta fan, I just see some of the complaints as whining when it comes to match-up selection. I'm sure everyone would feel very differently if we had beaten Boise and WVU. Likewise, everyone would hate the Orange bowl if we trudged down there to take an annual whipping.

[picasso]

Look at the starters on our last national title team...on offense, the only Texas starter was Q. On defense, the only starter from Texas was Strait.

It's not that Texas isn't important. It is to us because Oklahoma is so much smaller than Texas population-wise. But, we have always looked around the country and harvested the best from hither and yon.

And, look...I'm not upset about it EXCEPT as it related to our staying in the Big 12. I'm completely happy to watch Texas and Baylor flop. But, what I do not like is us having our cart hitched to small-minded schools, such as what is comprised of the imbeciles that once were the Southwest Conference.
Do you seriously think if we had joined the SEC our roster would be chock full of high school talent from Florida?

[jkjsooner]

I said months ago that Mack Brown's problem was that signing the best 25 players in Texas didn't necessarily mean signing the best 25 in the country.

You don't say? I really thought that the best 25 players in the country always came from the state of Texas. I'm so glad you set me straight on that one.

Anyway, if Texas really got the best 25 players in the state of Texas every year (they don't) with a decent coach they would compete for the national title every single year.

It's a big country and there are lots of good players out there but there are enough in the state of Texas to make UT a very good team. They have such a built-in advantage there that it simply doesn't make sense to gamble on national guys when you can fill your roster with great players who are begging to come to Texas. I'm sure any UT coach will go after a top 10 guy if he shows interest in UT but going on fishing expeditions in California or Florida isn't the best use of resources.

[Temujin]

Ah, so it's tradition and warm memories you seek. Not gonna happen as CFB is a fast changing landscape and the new playoffs will only accelerate that. We have had a pretty tradition rich matchup in the Cotton bowl over the last decade between the Big12 and SEC; and we have collectively gotten our a**es handed to us there. Tradition is made by a strong historical showing and the big12 has not been doing that.

LOL, I'm not sure what the argument is here. I just don't like the Fiesta. I'm not oblivious to the changes in CFB, nor am I ignorant of where it's headed. I just liked the Orange better, and wish we could still be playing there, that's all. And we hold on to other strange traditions around here, such as playing at the Cotton for the RRS. So why is a big deal to be nostalgic about the Orange Bowl, and wishing we were still playing there?

[badger]

Do you seriously think if we had joined the SEC our roster would be chock full of high school talent from Florida?

sure why not. we would have probably also won the SEC East since they were weak as hell this past offseason. No Baylors or Texas recruits to contend with out there :P

[Jacie]

. . . again, look at the champions: 10 to 1, Florida schools versus Texas schools. And, that is going back to 1983, when Miami won their first for Florida, and all the way back to 1970 for Texas. I'm actually giving Texas schools a 13 season head start, and Florida schools still out-championship them 10 to 1!

1967 Oklahoma hires Chuck Fairbanks who retains an assistant coach named Barry Switzer. Sooners go 10-1. After three 4-loss seasons and sa*et's championship of 1970, the Sooners go on a pre-Stoops dynastic run that lasts through 1987 while the whorns play for and lose a bowl game that would have given them another championship while burning through 4 coaches prior to hiring Mack Brown.

Maybe it was not their players that kept them from winning it all . . .

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I'm not concerned with NFL draft picks, although I do enjoy jkm's analyses. My focus is on success in college football measured in championships.

And, so, to the question of why Florida heavy, not Texas heavy...again, look at the champions: 10 to 1, Florida schools versus Texas schools. And, that is going back to 1983, when Miami won their first for Florida, and all the way back to 1970 for Texas. I'm actually giving Texas schools a 13 season head start, and Florida schools still out-championship them 10 to 1!

And, if you then take that same time frame and add the championship won by Alabama, Auburn, LSU, Georgia...and, stretch up one state to Clemson's 1981 title? You are up to 19 to 1 national titles over schools who rely of Florida/Deep South talent over the Texas schools who swear by Texas talent.

I was more commenting on "25 best". I think that the 25 best from Texas would split 50 games with the 25 best from Florida and both of them would lose 6 out of 10 to the 25 best from Cali.

Now, back to college talent. I think the problem is that Florida tends to have a more even talent base year over year than Texas does. Texas seems to throw waves at positions instead of a steady 4-5 at every one.

For example, in 2000 they had a huge class of WRs. The top 3 went to Texas but the class went 17 deep with #17 being Mark Clayton and there being a crapton of other good guys in there (Darling twins, Vontez Duff, etc). That class was thin as crap everywhere else with 1 LB, 1 DT, 1-2 CBs, 1 RB etc.