Heisman winners no longer have to have . . . integrity?

[Jacie]

While not official, this is the Wiki definition of the Heisman Trophy.

The Heisman Memorial Trophy Award (usually known colloquially as the Heisman Trophy or the Heisman), is awarded annually to the most outstanding player in college football in the United States whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity.

I can forgive the Heisman guys from awarding one to O.J. Simpson, even Reggie Bush cause they later asked for his back.

But c'mon now. First they give on to Cam Newton.

We didn't know Johnny Manziel would go off the deep end but he made a lot of voters uncomfortable with off-season antics.

But now that they can still decide, are they seriously going to award one to Jameis Winston?

[cherokeebrewer]

But now that they can still decide, are they seriously going to award one to Jameis Winston?

What if he's innocent?

[swardboy]

Yeah, I guess random sex with unknown women met in bars falls outside the bounds of integrity now. And don't give me that "all the young men do it" crap. You KNOW Sam didn't behave that way. Doesn't have anything to do with his "innocence". It comes from his own mouth.

[olevetonahill]

Yeah, I guess random sex with unknown women met in bars falls outside the bounds of integrity now. And don't give me that "all the young men do it" crap. You KNOW Sam didn't behave that way. Doesn't have anything to do with his "innocence". It comes from his own mouth.

You saying I aint got No Integrity?????

[Therealsouthsider]

...give it up guys, morals are antiquated and traits like integrity, honor and ethics are going the way of the dodo

ss

[swardboy]

You saying I aint got No Integrity?????

I think that hootch you brew probably affects yur integrity and other parts of yur brain ya mean old cuss.

[olevetonahill]

I think that hootch you brew probably affects yur integrity and other parts of yur brain ya mean old cuss.

I dont Brew No More . But yer prolly right LOL

[cherokeebrewer]

I still brew

[badger]

Heisman winners no longer have to have . . . integrity?

It's better than the Troy Smith year, when they no longer had to have talent


What if he's innocent?
I agree, he's been convicted or even charged with nothing at this point. He might have been accused of rape, but I imagine he's been accused of many things, including being a sh!tty Florida State Seminole

[swardboy]

My last word on the subject: His guilt or innocence in the rape case is immaterial. His admitted lifestyle IS. This has nothing to do with any accusation. Heisman voters will or won't wrestle with the "integrity" clause in the mission statement. Out of our hands. I can't imagine the girl's family presser will have a material affect on the voting, unless there's some kind of blockbuster revelation. But the timing renders a basic skepticism on my part. Goodbye, adios, hasta la vista baby....I won't be back.

[PrideMom]

The meaning of integrity is honesty and truthfulness.

[olevetonahill]

I still brew

You got that "Permit" they require?

[cherokeebrewer]

You got that "Permit" they require?

Yep, it's cheap.

[BoulderSooner79]

I reserve judgement on Winston until I see what that chick looks like.

[Jacie]

Listen for yourself.

http://sports.yahoo.com/video/911-call-released-jameis-winston-012642327.html

[olevetonahill]

Yep, it's cheap.

Not so much if ya Brew 120 proof stuff LOL

[cherokeebrewer]

Not so much if ya Brew 120 proof stuff LOL

That might get you jail time. I'll stick with beer since that's all I drink, but I know a few moonshiners...

[olevetonahill]

That might get you jail time. I'll stick with beer since that's all I drink, but I know a few moonshiners...

I got to spend the night. Why I dont do it anymore LOL

[PalmBeachSooner]

What if he's innocent?

It wasn't like the case was thrown out. The DA sent it back to the Police department because he didn't have a prosecutable case. It doesn't mean it didn't happen. Of course you're innocent until proven guilty in the U.S. if you have enough money. If you're poor not so much.

[cherokeebrewer]

It wasn't like the case was thrown out. The DA sent it back to the Police department because he didn't have a prosecutable case. It doesn't mean it didn't happen. Of course you're innocent until proven guilty in the U.S. if you have enough money. If you're poor not so much.

You read all that in my little 4 word comment? I suspect the only ones who know the truth are the 2 involved and therein lies the rub...

There's a difference between integrity and the morality of going to a bar and being lured by the charms of a young hottie. I try not to be judgemental, plus I grew weary of 'trial by internet' long ago...

[olevetonahill]

You read all that in my little 4 word comment? I suspect the only ones who know the truth are the 2 involved and therein lies the rub...

There's a difference between integrity and the morality of going to a bar and being lured by the charms of a young hottie. I try not to be judgemental, plus I grew weary of 'trial by internet' long ago...



Heh, Agreed Bro.

[BoulderSooner79]

You read all that in my little 4 word comment? I suspect the only ones who know the truth are the 2 involved and therein lies the rub...

There's a difference between integrity and the morality of going to a bar and being lured by the charms of a young hottie. I try not to be judgemental, plus I grew weary of 'trial by internet' long ago...

This exactly. Presuming anything one way or another just exposes your bias and is unfair to both parties. That's the frustrating thing about these cases - there is no way of knowing outside what the 2 parties decide to tell and agree on is the truth.

[KantoSooner]

So Winston is lacking in integrity because he likes to have sex with women?

Somewhere along the way, America turned left when I kept going straight.

[Ton Loc]

This exactly. Presuming anything one way or another just exposes your bias and is unfair to both parties. That's the frustrating thing about these cases - there is no way of knowing outside what the 2 parties decide to tell and agree on is the truth.

Well - the parties plus a couple of his friends that were there. So...

Regardless - who cares? Its the Heisman. They **** **** up all the time anyway. Why should now be any different?

[Sooner in Tampa]

I dont Brew No More . But yer prolly right LOL

We all wept

[Sooner in Tampa]

...give it up guys, morals are antiquated and traits like integrity, honor and ethics are going the way of the dodo

ss

Unfortunately...this is entirely too true in our current society...

[EatLeadCommie]

Yeah, I guess random sex with unknown women met in bars falls outside the bounds of integrity now. And don't give me that "all the young men do it" crap. You KNOW Sam didn't behave that way. Doesn't have anything to do with his "innocence". It comes from his own mouth.

Really? Do you KNOW for a FACT that Sam didn't behave that way? Does Sam not have something dangling between his legs? I'm pretty sure that, given the opportunity, the vast majority of unmarried heterosexual males are just fine boning on some random strange now and then. The vast majority of unmarried heterosexual males don't have BS allegations thrown against them because we are football players, however. It's nobody's business who he bones. He's a college kid. You go to college for three things-- an education, to party, and to get laid...and that is not just a recent development amongst this new breed of young whippersnappers. In his case, you can add football. It would appear that he has pursued at least two of those things with great success.

And they met at Potbelly's, which is a chain sandwich shop and not a bar.

[swardboy]

Strange, it advertises itself as Tallahassee's #1 college bar http://www.potbellys.net/ . Perhaps you are wrong.

Doh, you made me post again in this thread!

[KantoSooner]

Oh, c'mon Sward. You seriously can NOT be that tweaked out that Winston is on the inside track for the Heisman. We've had some pretty shady characters win that award for 50 years now (1) and he's not been even charged with anything (yet)(2).

It's a football performance award, not a sainthood.

If you're looking to limit the award to a young man who's a virgin, I suggest we simply ****can the award all together: they're thin on the ground these days. And guess what? They were thin on the ground during Bud's reign according to both of my parents who were on the campus at that time. And My grandfather's eyes lit up describing a certain young lady he knew on the OU campus in 1931. He was not so crude as to confirm my suspicions but damn if that old goat didn't sigh in happy reverie, 70+ years later; leading me to believe that said date had not been limited to holding hands and reciting Bible verses to each other.

[rock on sooner]

Potbelly's...my kinda sandwich shop...$2 Tuesdays, free drinks till
midnite on Thursday and a six hour happy hour on Friday..I'll visit
next time I'm in Tallahassee....'course they'd throw me out 'cause
I'd raise the average age in the bar substantially...:biggrin:

[FaninAma]

Winston may very well be innocent of rape but there are some serious flaws in the way the medical evidence was handled in this case.

[EatLeadCommie]

Strange, it advertises itself as Tallahassee's #1 college bar http://www.potbellys.net/ . Perhaps you are wrong.

Doh, you made me post again in this thread!

My bad. I am wrong. Potbelly's is a national sandwich chain, so I just assumed from the police report that they were there. Looking now, I see it is actually simply Potbelly and not Potbelly'S. Guess that's why they haven't sued.

Regardless, it isn't particularly important to the gist of my response, which is that college kids have sex with strangers on a fairly regular basis when the opportunity presents itself.

[SoonerForLife92]

Winston may very well be innocent of rape but there are some serious flaws in the way the medical evidence was handled in this case.

What are you talking about? They did a standard rape kit and toxicology just a few hours after the event.

Jameis is clearly innocent. The girl implied she was drugged. There were no drugs in her system and she had blood content level of .04... Meaning it would have been about .10 at the time of the event, barely over the legal driving limit which isnt even close to black out drunk. She initially told the cops she was hit over the head really hard. She had no signs of physical damage. She constantly changed her story. She was also part of a group in her sorority that self proclaimed themselves the "clear chasers". She cheated on her boyfriend jamal (a player from another school) and was willing to cry rape and ruin a young mans life (yes i know he was a noname at the time) just to make herself look better.

[sooner46]

Most people now days do not know that there is such a word as integrity let alone know what it means, the same with morals. We all have character some good, some bad, some worst. I was taught to respect women and to respect myself. We have always people with little or none of either, we just have more now days and it is taken as the norm.

[EatLeadCommie]

What are you talking about? They did a standard rape kit and toxicology just a few hours after the event.

Jameis is clearly innocent. The girl implied she was drugged. There were no drugs in her system and she had blood content level of .04... Meaning it would have been about .10 at the time of the event, barely over the legal driving limit which isnt even close to black out drunk. She initially told the cops she was hit over the head really hard. She had no signs of physical damage. She constantly changed her story. She was also part of a group in her sorority that self proclaimed themselves the "clear chasers". She cheated on her boyfriend jamal (a player from another school) and was willing to cry rape and ruin a young mans life (yes i know he was a noname at the time) just to make herself look better.

Exactly. He humped her and dumped her, which ticked her off and wounded her pride.

[Snrinhouston]

You read all that in my little 4 word comment? I suspect the only ones who know the truth are the 2 involved and therein lies the rub...

There's a difference between integrity and the morality of going to a bar and being lured by the charms of a young hottie. I try not to be judgemental, plus I grew weary of 'trial by internet' long ago...


Agreed. Having sex with some chick you just met in a bar doesn't seem to be an integrity issue. Just as embezzling from clients wouldn't be called a sexuality issue.

[soonergirlNeugene]

According to an article over at Slate magazine, there is mounting evidence that this case was never investigated properly:

"They didn’t ask for [Winston's] DNA. They didn’t try to get Winston’s phone records or his social media postings. They didn’t interview anyone at the bar where she said she had been drinking, or ask for surveillance footage—which existed, but was taped over automatically after a month. They didn’t look for the cab driver, who, according to the accuser, took her, Winston, and another man to his room. They didn’t look for Winston’s friends, who the woman said saw what happened in his room, even though one of them was identified as an FSU player named Chris and was obviously Chris Casher."

Fox Sports is reporting that they didn't process the rape kit according to the standard practice. Apparently it hung around the PD in an unsealed container and wasn't sent to the lab for a full 5 business days after it was taken. Having worked as an ADA for several years, I can definitely say this was not common practice with us - we usually had them sent out once daily - and faster for important cases, though larger offices tended to get their samples out faster on a regular basis as they usually have a courier service engaged to handle that process. We also know that while the police did test her for inebriation, it was several hours before this occurred, which is plenty of time for your system to clear alcohol. They NEVER administered a blood test, which is common practice even in many small town departments.

Winston may in fact be innocent, but whenever I see people characterizing the victim as a skank or a slut it makes me sick. Sure, maybe she WAS drunk or maybe it was in fact consensual, but the police sure as hell didn't bother to make sure. I'm not very comfortable with how many in the media have embraced the DA's decision to drop the charges as the same thing as a finding of innocence on his part. The entire way their office has handled this complaint has been shoddy. Before Winston became the Heisman frontrunner, the case is delayed time and again meanwhile evidence is mishandled and disappears. Once he becomes the frontrunner, THEN they decide to put a rush on evaluating the case so that they can call a press conference to announce they are dropping charges well in time before the Heisman voting takes place. The whole situation reeks - he may in fact be innocent but their horrifying mishandling of this case has made it nigh impossible to determine one way or the other.

[SoonerForLife92]

According to an article over at Slate magazine, there is mounting evidence that this case was never investigated properly:

"They didn’t ask for [Winston's] DNA. They didn’t try to get Winston’s phone records or his social media postings. They didn’t interview anyone at the bar where she said she had been drinking, or ask for surveillance footage—which existed, but was taped over automatically after a month. They didn’t look for the cab driver, who, according to the accuser, took her, Winston, and another man to his room. They didn’t look for Winston’s friends, who the woman said saw what happened in his room, even though one of them was identified as an FSU player named Chris and was obviously Chris Casher."

Fox Sports is reporting that they didn't process the rape kit according to the standard practice. Apparently it hung around the PD in an unsealed container and wasn't sent to the lab for a full 5 business days after it was taken. Having worked as an ADA for several years, I can definitely say this was not common practice with us - we usually had them sent out once daily - and faster for important cases, though larger offices tended to get their samples out faster on a regular basis as they usually have a courier service engaged to handle that process. We also know that while the police did test her for inebriation, it was several hours before this occurred, which is plenty of time for your system to clear alcohol. They NEVER administered a blood test, which is common practice even in many small town departments.

Winston may in fact be innocent, but whenever I see people characterizing the victim as a skank or a slut it makes me sick. Sure, maybe she WAS drunk or maybe it was in fact consensual, but the police sure as hell didn't bother to make sure. I'm not very comfortable with how many in the media have embraced the DA's decision to drop the charges as the same thing as a finding of innocence on his part. The entire way their office has handled this complaint has been shoddy. Before Winston became the Heisman frontrunner, the case is delayed time and again meanwhile evidence is mishandled and disappears. Once he becomes the frontrunner, THEN they decide to put a rush on evaluating the case so that they can call a press conference to announce they are dropping charges well in time before the Heisman voting takes place. The whole situation reeks - he may in fact be innocent but their horrifying mishandling of this case has made it nigh impossible to determine one way or the other.

Her BAC was .04 meaning it would have been about .10 at the time she was with Winston. Not even close to black out drunk. I don't have a problem with her being a slut if she is one. I have a problem with her changing her story multiple times and flat out lying to the police about getting hit in the head and being drugged. As well as trying to ruin a young mans life due to her own mistake of cheating on her boyfriend.

[Harris County Sooner]

Johnny Rodgers won the Heisman after a conviction for armed robbery. Since 1972, integrity hasn't been necessary.

[soonergirlNeugene]

Her BAC was .04 meaning it would have been about .10 at the time she was with Winston. Not even close to black out drunk. I don't have a problem with her being a slut if she is one. I have a problem with her changing her story multiple times and flat out lying to the police about getting hit in the head and being drugged. As well as trying to ruin a young mans life due to her own mistake of cheating on her boyfriend.

She may well be making everything up. But the police did not bother securing ANY of the evidence that would have cleared his name. Regardless of who you believe, a miscarriage of justice has occurred here. Nobody was convicted, nobody was exonerated, and all b/c this case received treatment that deviated from standard practice.

As for myself, I just have too many doubts about Winston. She changed her story, but as her attorney stated, it is likely that she was being affected by something other that alcohol which she was never tested for. And yes, that part may have been consensual as well, and it may not have. And it would account for both the inconsistencies in both her statement and the statements given by Winston's friends who also gave conflicting and shifting versions of the events that night. But it does not account for the texts and video that Casher told police he had, and then deleted after making his first statement. And yes, there is even a chance that that video would have proven she hadn't been raped, but it might have been deleted to conceal drug use by Winston or other people at the party. Regardless, the police were told it existed and failed to secure it though there was a high probability that it would be destroyed.

This whole thing reeks of fail.

[SoonerForLife92]

She may well be making everything up. But the police did not bother securing ANY of the evidence that would have cleared his name. Regardless of who you believe, a miscarriage of justice has occurred here. Nobody was convicted, nobody was exonerated, and all b/c this case received treatment that deviated from standard practice.

As for myself, I just have too many doubts about Winston. She changed her story, but as her attorney stated, it is likely that she was being affected by something other that alcohol which she was never tested for. And yes, that part may have been consensual as well, and it may not have. And it would account for both the inconsistencies in both her statement and the statements given by Winston's friends who also gave conflicting and shifting versions of the events that night. But it does not account for the texts and video that Casher told police he had, and then deleted after making his first statement. And yes, there is even a chance that that video would have proven she hadn't been raped, but it might have been deleted to conceal drug use by Winston or other people at the party. Regardless, the police were told it existed and failed to secure it though there was a high probability that it would be destroyed.

This whole thing reeks of fail.

That one story you found is the only one that deviates from all the others I have read that say they found no drugs in the toxicology report taken hours after the event. I could be wrong. However what possible reason would the police have to try and tamper with evidence? Winston was a no name at the time. But this sorority girl self proclaiming herself a cleat chaser really makes me have my doubts. Also the fact she claimed she was hit very hard in the head but had no signs of physical damage. She wasn't sure if she wanted to press charges at first, she was pushed into it by her family.

[soonergirlNeugene]

There was no full toxicology report attached to the case, just her estimated BAC. That means breathalyzer but not a blood test. This is one of the complaints her attorney is raising for the civil case. I hope they name the TPD and their DA's office. Winston may have standing as well. Their mishandling of this case has cost him too.

[SoonerForLife92]

There was no full toxicology report attached to the case, just her estimated BAC. That means breathalyzer but not a blood test. This is one of the complaints her attorney is raising for the civil case. I hope they name the TPD and their DA's office. Winston may have standing as well. Their mishandling of this case has cost him too.

That's not what has been said in everything I've researched.

[FaninAma]

That one story you found is the only one that deviates from all the others I have read that say they found no drugs in the toxicology report taken hours after the event. I could be wrong. However what possible reason would the police have to try and tamper with evidence? Winston was a no name at the time. But this sorority girl self proclaiming herself a cleat chaser really makes me have my doubts. Also the fact she claimed she was hit very hard in the head but had no signs of physical damage. She wasn't sure if she wanted to press charges at first, she was pushed into it by her family.
They only did a standard drug screen which doesn't test for rohypnol. They als did not process her rape kit for 39 days. If the 2 players erased their phone video after answering questions then they should be charged with obstruction.

The Heisman process will look very stupid if a civil trial brings out a lot of information the police refused to investigate.

[FaninAma]

What are you talking about? They did a standard rape kit and toxicology just a few hours after the event.

Jameis is clearly innocent. The girl implied she was drugged. There were no drugs in her system and she had blood content level of .04... Meaning it would have been about .10 at the time of the event, barely over the legal driving limit which isnt even close to black out drunk. She initially told the cops she was hit over the head really hard. She had no signs of physical damage. She constantly changed her story. She was also part of a group in her sorority that self proclaimed themselves the "clear chasers". She cheated on her boyfriend jamal (a player from another school) and was willing to cry rape and ruin a young mans life (yes i know he was a noname at the time) just to make herself look better.

You know nothing about how a rape exam should be conducted. Take my word for it. For one thing you don't hold the rape kit for 39 days. For another you don't just use a standard drug screen. You also draw blood alcohol levels. Are there photos of the bruises? Apparently the ER or the police took no photos.

Why did the players erase their phone video? They should be charged with obstruction. The police bungled this investigation via incompetence or for some other more nefarious reason.

[BoulderSooner79]

They only did a standard drug screen which doesn't test for rohypnol. They als did not process her rape kit for 39 days. If the 2 players erased their hone video after answering questions then they should be charged with obstruction.

The Heisman process will look very stupid if a civil trial brings out a lot of information the police refused to investigate.

The Heisman voters can only go by what is known when they vote. The process is stupid regardless (lets see, who is the QB or RB of the top rated team in the country? I know, I'll vote for him!).

[FaninAma]

The Heisman voters can only go by what is known when they vote. The process is stupid regardless (lets see, who is the QB or RB of the top rated team in the country? I know, I'll vote for him!).

If there is a good chance that the person you vote for could disgrace the award then I think that is a legitimate reason to not vote for him. You also have a duty to the integrity of the organization you are a part of.

There will be a lot more coming out about this case and the Heisman trophy award will be a part of the saga. Of course a couple of big FSU boosters could step up and pay off the victim but I get the impression she is not interested in that.

[BoulderSooner79]

If there is a good chance that the person you vote for could disgrace the award then I think that is a legitimate reason to not vote for him. You also have a duty to the integrity of the organization you are a part of.

There will be a lot more coming out about this case and the Heisman trophy award will be a part of the saga. Of course a couple of big FSU boosters could step up and pay off the victim but I get the impression she is not interested in that.

You're showing your bias.

[SoonerForLife92]

You know nothing about how a rape exam should be conducted. Take my word for it. For one thing you don't hold the rape kit for 39 days. For another you don't just use a standard drug screen. You also draw blood alcohol levels. Are there photos of the bruises? Apparently the ER or the police took no photos.

Why did the players erase their phone video? They should be charged with obstruction. The police bungled this investigation via incompetence or for some other more nefarious reason.

Hmm I know nothing about how a rape exam should be conducted because I said all the reports I have researched made no mention of what you guys are saying? While also stating I could be wrong because it seems like you guys have some knowledge of the case that I havent read yet. Yeah nice logic.

[soonergirlNeugene]

There are several news outlets supporting the statement released by the victim's attorney. Seriously, if the way the TPD handled this case is worse than what you'd see in Nimrod, OR then something is amiss. Combine that with statements like the investigating officer told the victim's attorney to "think long and hard before proceeding against him because she will be raked over the coals and her life will be made miserable" and it looks inescapably shady.

[8timechamps]

I don't understand the hate toward Winston. Our legal process worked, and he was found innocent of the allegations. In the end, none of us will never know exactly what happened, but to think that he's a bad person because he had sex...well...then you should probably hate our entire team every year. They're college kids, and it's really hard NOT to have sex in college.

Manziel and Winston are completely different situations. They're both elite players, but Winston is a "team first" guy. When he wins tonight, count how many references he makes to his team, and I'd be 100% shocked if he doesn't give the credit to the guys around him.

Maziel is sneaky, and continued to break rules after he was awarded the trophy. Even if you look down on Winston for the one alleged incident, then shouldn't you at least wait to see how he conducts himself afterward?

[picasso]

Fan is in the medical profession and a father of girls. I can completely understand where he's coming from.

[soonergirlNeugene]

Except he wasn't found innocent. That is one of the more frustrating things about all of this. The complaint is still live, but the charges were dropped and can be raised again at any time before the statute of limitations runs. This isn't about Winston having sex in college either. It's about whether he engaged in sexual intercourse/intrusion with another person without their consent. We have a girl who claimed he did, but we have an investigating body that only bothered investigating the victim, and even that wasn't properly conducted. In no way has the legal process worked here. All the DA admitted by dropping the charges was how incompetently his officers handled the case. That doesn't help either Winston or the alleged victim.

[bluedogok]

The problem is it ultimately comes down to a he sad, she said thing. This wouldn't be the first case of someone crying rape because the "relationship" didn't turn out how they wanted, those with fame or notoriety can sometimes be unfairly targeted in cases like that. It also wouldn't be the first time an assault occurred and someone with means or notoriety was able to sidestep the charges.

There is just not a good outcome for either party from a situation like this.

[8timechamps]

Except he wasn't found innocent. That is one of the more frustrating things about all of this. The complaint is still live, but the charges were dropped and can be raised again at any time before the statute of limitations runs. This isn't about Winston having sex in college either. It's about whether he engaged in sexual intercourse/intrusion with another person without their consent. We have a girl who claimed he did, but we have an investigating body that only bothered investigating the victim, and even that wasn't properly conducted. In no way has the legal process worked here. All the DA admitted by dropping the charges was how incompetently his officers handled the case. That doesn't help either Winston or the alleged victim.

True, he wasn't found "innocenct", but there wasn't enough for the DA to move forward. Since I wasn't there, and neither were anyone other than the two involved, all I can base my judgement on his what the authorities found. If, at some point in the future, they find more evidence, and the charges are made, then I'll re-evaluate my opinion.

I think it is about Winston having sex. Because I think that alone leads some folks to believe he is guilty. And since without the sex, there would be no case, and thus no story, it kinda is a big part of this thing.

Additional Edit: I think the legal process worked the way it was designed to work. How do we know that the information they received was enough to keep them from "bothering" to investigate Winston?

[8timechamps]

The problem is it ultimately comes down to a he sad, she said thing. This wouldn't be the first case of someone crying rape because the "relationship" didn't turn out how they wanted, those with fame or notoriety can sometimes be unfairly targeted in cases like that. It also wouldn't be the first time an assault occurred and someone with means or notoriety was able to sidestep the charges.

There is just not a good outcome for either party from a situation like this.


Well put.

[BoulderSooner79]

The problem is it ultimately comes down to a he sad, she said thing. This wouldn't be the first case of someone crying rape because the "relationship" didn't turn out how they wanted, those with fame or notoriety can sometimes be unfairly targeted in cases like that. It also wouldn't be the first time an assault occurred and someone with means or notoriety was able to sidestep the charges.

There is just not a good outcome for either party from a situation like this.

Exactly and some people just can't accept this, so they follow the line of "truth" that suits them. There will be no satisfying conclusion, most likely.

[soonergirlNeugene]

Additional Edit: I think the legal process worked the way it was designed to work. How do we know that the information they received was enough to keep them from "bothering" to investigate Winston?

That depends on whether you see the investigation as part of the legal process. When a victim comes forward, someone is supposed to DO something about it. Not wait 39 days for evidence to deteriorate or be destroyed - and in this case, all of this happened. Little about this case was handled with even a modicum of competence, not from the initial complaint to the press conference. Really, why else call a press conference to announce that there will be no charges if not to aid in Winston's Heisman chances? Why else do you have the DA, reporters, and a state representative assembled laughing about the fact that they are announcing that evidence has been so badly compromised that the case cannot move forward? As a former ADA, it's an embarrassment to think that people believe this is how any criminal investigation should be handled. Maybe that's why this one irks me so much.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-Eao4MXRS14

[SoonerForLife92]

That depends on whether you see the investigation as part of the legal process. When a victim comes forward, someone is supposed to DO something about it. Not wait 39 days for evidence to deteriorate or be destroyed - and in this case, all of this happened. Little about this case was handled with even a modicum of competence, not from the initial complaint to the press conference. Really, why else call a press conference to announce that there will be no charges if not to aid in Winston's Heisman chances? Why else do you have the DA, reporters, and a state representative assembled laughing about the fact that they are announcing that evidence has been so badly compromised that the case cannot move forward? As a former ADA, it's an embarrassment to think that people believe this is how any criminal investigation should be handled. Maybe that's why this one irks me so much.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-Eao4MXRS14


That video showed me nothing with all the parts cut out. They are happy because at this moment they believe the young man was falsely accused.

Can you post the links to where you found all this information about the mishandling of evidence and the police not taking a proper blood report and toxicology?

[8timechamps]

That depends on whether you see the investigation as part of the legal process. When a victim comes forward, someone is supposed to DO something about it. Not wait 39 days for evidence to deteriorate or be destroyed - and in this case, all of this happened. Little about this case was handled with even a modicum of competence, not from the initial complaint to the press conference. Really, why else call a press conference to announce that there will be no charges if not to aid in Winston's Heisman chances? Why else do you have the DA, reporters, and a state representative assembled laughing about the fact that they are announcing that evidence has been so badly compromised that the case cannot move forward? As a former ADA, it's an embarrassment to think that people believe this is how any criminal investigation should be handled. Maybe that's why this one irks me so much.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-Eao4MXRS14

Here's the problem, you KNOW how it should go down. I (and most everyone else) do not. I'll admit I'm clueless when it comes to the procedure for these kinds of things, and that's my fault. You also make a very good point about the press conference. There is no benefit, other than that to Winston.

I will add this though, you are viewing these things through very knowledgeable eyes, but probably also through jaded ones. I am, in no way, discounting your opinion...in fact, I respect it enough to realize that you have probably seen too many victims go through these kinds of things, only to find no justice. My point is, I'll concede that the process was mishandled. However, there is still no way for any of us to know what really happened, and whether or not the alleged victim is being truthful. I think it's fair to give Winston the benefit of the doubt, based on that alone.

[soonergirlNeugene]

Here's the problem, you KNOW how it should go down. I (and most everyone else) do not. I'll admit I'm clueless when it comes to the procedure for these kinds of things, and that's my fault. You also make a very good point about the press conference. There is no benefit, other than that to Winston.

I will add this though, you are viewing these things through very knowledgeable eyes, but probably also through jaded ones. I am, in no way, discounting your opinion...in fact, I respect it enough to realize that you have probably seen too many victims go through these kinds of things, only to find no justice. My point is, I'll concede that the process was mishandled. However, there is still no way for any of us to know what really happened, and whether or not the alleged victim is being truthful. I think it's fair to give Winston the benefit of the doubt, based on that alone.

EDIT: I'm deleting my response. Realized I was starting to get repetitive. There are a lot of articles out there w/ a detailed list of everything that was mishandled in this case. I get the sense that I'm beating a dead horse in here. I'm just going to get back to discussing football b/c this stuff is too much sometimes. I always hated dealing with those rape cases. The perps are always SO insistent on their innocence - even in cases I had where we'd seized pictures or videos some guy took of himself in the act. A video was taken here, but was deleted and then the phone was destroyed. *SIGH* These issues should be decided in a courtroom and not in the court of public opinion.

[SoonerForLife92]

EDIT: I'm deleting my response. Realized I was starting to get repetitive. There are a lot of articles out there w/ a detailed list of everything that was mishandled in this case. I get the sense that I'm beating a dead horse in here. I'm just going to get back to discussing football b/c this stuff is too much sometimes. I always hated dealing with those rape cases. The perps are always SO insistent on their innocence - even in cases I had where we'd seized pictures or videos some guy took of himself in the act. A video was taken here, but was deleted and then the phone was destroyed. These issues should be decided in a courtroom and not in the court of public opinion.

Really? Well guess I'm searching in the wrong places because every article I have found only says the accuser's attorny is claiming that evidence was mishandled. No actually evidence to show that the case evidence was mishandled.

[BoulderSooner79]

This case is simple. If a Winston led FSU wins the title and breaks the SEC streak, then he is as innocent as a newborn baby. If FSU doesn't get the job done, he is guilty as sin and should rot in prison for his remaining days. Why do people make things so complicated?

[sooner46]

soonergirlNeugene, I believe what you stated is true about this case, this guy just got by with rape because of who he is. I heard the statement he made a short time before he got the Heisman and by the way he made it, I believe he was bragging.

[SanDiegoSoonerGal]

"...But today, of all days, with a Heisman in Winston's hands and possibly a national championship crystal ball in his future, it is equally important to acknowledge the lingering echoes — fair or unfair — surrounding him.

They tell a story that can be relayed without judgment or bias, a story told through the documented words of those directly involved, words that were culled from various police reports and statements and will be italicized here.

I have to talk to you. I spent all night in the hospital … I got raped. I don't want to text about it. My parents are here.... My dad went like 100 the whole way here at 4 in the morning.

The story begins here, in the texts from the alleged victim to friends on Nov. 7. In the early morning hours, she left a Tallahassee bar in a cab with an unknown man who took her to his apartment, raped her, dressed her, then drove her to an intersection near her home on her scooter.

She immediately called the Tallahassee police and a report was filed. A month later, she saw her suspected attacker in one of her classes and identified him as Winston. At the time, he was a redshirt freshman quarterback who had yet to appear in a game. But he was considered the top quarterback recruit in the country and the centerpiece of the rebirth of a formerly great program.

The only strong action allegedly came from Tallahassee Det. Scott Angulo to family attorney Patricia Carroll, in words that were made public in a statement issued by the family.

Detective (Scott) Angulo told the attorney that Tallahassee was a big football town and the victim needs to think long and hard before proceeding against (Winston) because she will be raked over the coals and her life will be made miserable.


http://www.latimes.com/sports/college/football/la-sp-heisman-plaschke-20131215,0,747462.column#ixzz2nWAcmPQX

[SanDiegoSoonerGal]

OK then.

So anyone who thinks this is a he said/she said kind of deal coming from a woman 1) miffed at being rebuffed when a relationship she hoped for with a famous man didn't work out and/or 2) who and/or wants to make some kind of profit due to the fame of the accused involved

must also believe

that the woman hatched this plot within 24 hours of the event and was prescient enough to foresee that said accused, who was an unknown at the time, would go on to great fame and fortune that she could capitalize on later.

There's more, but...

Really, y'all? I mean, really?

[olevetonahill]

OK then.

So anyone who thinks this is a he said/she said kind of deal coming from a woman 1) miffed at being rebuffed when a relationship she hoped for with a famous man didn't work out and/or 2) who and/or wants to make some kind of profit due to the fame of the accused involved

must also believe

that the woman hatched this plot within 24 hours of the event and was prescient enough to foresee that said accused, who was an unknown at the time, would go on to great fame and fortune that she could capitalize on later.

There's more, but...

Really, y'all? I mean, really?

I feel sorry for the Girl. I havnt kept up with this because every one spins it to fit their theory of facts.

[SoonerForLife92]

OK then.

So anyone who thinks this is a he said/she said kind of deal coming from a woman 1) miffed at being rebuffed when a relationship she hoped for with a famous man didn't work out and/or 2) who and/or wants to make some kind of profit due to the fame of the accused involved

must also believe

that the woman hatched this plot within 24 hours of the event and was prescient enough to foresee that said accused, who was an unknown at the time, would go on to great fame and fortune that she could capitalize on later.

There's more, but...

Really, y'all? I mean, really?


Not really considering the self proclaimed "cleat chaser" made the accusations when winston was still a redshirt frosh with no fame. I believe the girl cheated on her boyfriend jamal and called rape to make herself look better. Has nothing to do with his newfound fame.

[KantoSooner]

We've wandered a bit away from the original purpose of this thread, so let's go back. 'Integrity' is it a requirement to be worthy of a Heisman?

First, I think we're all agree that, had Winston been charged with rape or convicted of same, he wouldn't have won. So, there's some sort of line out there across which you can't go and still get the votes. That said, and taking on board all that's been written about how the case was handled, he hasn't been charged and the case against him is at least a bit murky.

Second, given that, he had arguably the best season, by a large margin, of any player in college football and that was made more extraordinary by his relative youth, he's very deserving because of his performance.

Third, if his off-field conduct is to be judged in the balance of whether he is worthy of the award, what we know is that he's an active hetero-sexual male 18 years of age in a town that vies with any in America for concentration of young women who are ready, willing and able. Are we saying that casual sex is an automatic excluder for consideration for the Heisman? Are we saying that engaging in casual sex is somehow a violation of 'integrity'? I can't see any meaningful definition of 'integrity' that has much to do with one's sexual conduct whatsoever, presuming that it's consensual.

[kbsooner21]

What's wrong with giving it to Winston? Just cause some whore decided to try and make a little coin off him once he became famous? He's a better man than me cause I would have thanked that family for having such a hore daughter in my acceptance speech after they had the press conference last Friday.

[KantoSooner]

That's kind of the point: who cares how many partners he has, or she has? Some people have more active and varied sex lives than others. Whether you're a life long celebate or engage in sex with the casualness of a handshake has nothing to do with your moral code or any concept of 'integrity'.
What does is the use of violence or coercion in compelling otherwise undecided partners, or violation of promises to partners.

[cherokeebrewer]

What's wrong with giving it to Winston? Just cause some whore decided to try and make a little coin off him once he became famous?

It's comments like this that make 'trial by internet' so repulsive...

[kbsooner21]

It's comments like this that make 'trial by internet' so repulsive...

What's repulsive is trying to hang the kid without him even getting charges against him.

[BoulderSooner79]

It's comments like this that make 'trial by internet' so repulsive...


What's repulsive is trying to hang the kid without him even getting charges against him.

Both assumptions are repulsive - or at least unfair. Our society is based on innocent until proven guilty, so best to go with that premise for both parties.

[SanDiegoSoonerGal]

In any situation like this there are those who immediately brand the accuser as whore, slut, skank, golddigger, whatever.

Which--and this is my bias that I readily admit--makes me tend to believe the accuser every time.

Because why would ANYONE unnecessarily subject herself to this kind of revilement?

As for a profit motive, I've wracked my brain and I've yet to come up with any case in which a rape victim profited from it. Refresh my memory, anyone?

[BoulderSooner79]

In any situation like this there are those who immediately brand the accuser as whore, slut, skank, golddigger, whatever.

Which--and this is my bias that I readily admit--makes me tend to believe the accuser every time.

Because why would ANYONE unnecessarily subject herself to this kind of revilement?

As for a profit motive, I've wracked my brain and I've yet to come up with any case in which a rape victim profited from it. Refresh my memory, anyone?

I don't understand the motive of a false accuser either, but it happens regularly with accusers admitting it. But then again, I don't understand the motive for rape and that certainly happens.

[ashley]

How does anyone know the integrity of every player who ever won the Heisman?

[Sooner in Tampa]

What's wrong with giving it to Winston? Just cause some whore...

And we wonder why 70% of all sexual assualt/rape cases are not report...pretty ****ing disgusting

The women are put on trial...they asked for it...they shouldn't dress like that...they shouldn't have been at such and such establishment...sickening

Some of you 'men' have really shown a lack of class

[stoops the eternal pimp]

How does anyone know the integrity of every player who ever won the Heisman?

This..And who gets to measure the integrity of the person?

Each voter has their own personal standard...114 or 115 voters left him off the ballot..He still won. In the eyes of the rest of them, he was worthy of the award.. Who can go tell the people who voted for them they are wrong because in their eyes, he doesn't have intergrity?

[SoonerForLife92]

And we wonder why 70% of all sexual assualt/rape cases are not report...pretty ****ing disgusting

The women are put on trial...they asked for it...they shouldn't dress like that...they shouldn't have been at such and such establishment...sickening

Some of you 'men' have really shown a lack of class

It is different when the accuser is in a group in her sorority that calls themselves the "cleat chasers.". And when the accuser's story constantly changes.

[Scott D]

In any situation like this there are those who immediately brand the accuser as whore, slut, skank, golddigger, whatever.

Which--and this is my bias that I readily admit--makes me tend to believe the accuser every time.

Because why would ANYONE unnecessarily subject herself to this kind of revilement?

As for a profit motive, I've wracked my brain and I've yet to come up with any case in which a rape victim profited from it. Refresh my memory, anyone?

What about situations where a rape victim accuses an individual of rape to cover a consentual act that wouldn't be approved of by family..or more specifically parents?

I'm not using that as a reasoning for where someone might profit from it, but rather using the threat of the charge as a way to cover their own behind for their poor decision making.

[bluedogok]

What about situations where a rape victim accuses an individual of rape to cover a consentual act that wouldn't be approved of by family..or more specifically parents?

I'm not using that as a reasoning for where someone might profit from it, but rather using the threat of the charge as a way to cover their own behind for their poor decision making.
My father was on a jury in the early 80's where this happened, it made it all the way to the point of seating a jury before she told the prosecutor that basically her father had caught her with someone so she claimed rape. Charges were dismissed.

[Sooner in Tampa]

It is different when the accuser is in a group in her sorority that calls themselves the "cleat chasers.". And when the accuser's story constantly changes.

Justify it however you want...the bottom line is that women (in general) do not want to go through the hell that is a rape case...the stats speak for themselves

When you get a little bit older, you will understand.

[starclassic tama]

The best statistics we have show that between only 2-8% of rape cases are falsely reported by a woman. In cases where the woman reports it right after it happens and undergoes the horrors that are involved in the rape kit, the statistics are even less. As far as her being disoriented and her story not adding up, it's easy to be disoriented after you have just been raped.

Every sign points to Winston getting away with it.

[sooner46]

I agree, "Every sign points to Winston getting away with it". I listen to his little statement he made just before he got the Heisman and the way he said it and the look on his face showed that he knew he got by with rape. It was almost like he was bagging about it.

[King Barry's Back]

Not really considering the self proclaimed "cleat chaser" made the accusations when winston was still a redshirt frosh with no fame. I believe the girl cheated on her boyfriend jamal and called rape to make herself look better. Has nothing to do with his newfound fame.

Are you kidding me? I admit that it is possible that she is lying, but how does "rape…make herself look better"? That's nuts.

[Scott D]

Are you kidding me? I admit that it is possible that she is lying, but how does "rape…make herself look better"? That's nuts.

I won't speak for another poster, but I think the "make herself looks better" is basically a simplistic way of saying "In order to cover that this young lady may have 'loose morals' she may have decided to say that she was raped".

[SoonerForLife92]

Are you kidding me? I admit that it is possible that she is lying, but how does "rape…make herself look better"? That's nuts.

Because she cheated on her boyfriend. Do you not know how to read the post that you just quoted?

[SoonerForLife92]

Justify it however you want...the bottom line is that women (in general) do not want to go through the hell that is a rape case...the stats speak for themselves

When you get a little bit older, you will understand.


I understand it just fine. She did not want to go through with pressing chargers, her family coerced her into it. From what I have read about the reported rape kit that took place (others have claimed the police mistreated the case, but I have only heard that from the accuser's attorney and there has yet to be evidence for that in itself, maybe I need to just research more but I'm about done caring) there was no drugs in her system and she had a blood alcohol level of .04, meaning it would have been .10 at the time, hardly black out drunk when that is barely over the legal driving limit of .08.

Until I see actual proof otherwise, she lied about being hit really hard over the head, she lied about being drugged, and she is lying about the drunken mistake that she made.

[SanDiegoSoonerGal]

What about situations where a rape victim accuses an individual of rape to cover a consentual act that wouldn't be approved of by family..or more specifically parents?

I'm not using that as a reasoning for where someone might profit from it, but rather using the threat of the charge as a way to cover their own behind for their poor decision making.

I can only speak for myself, but I would much rather subject myself to my parents' disapproval/punishment than be branded by society at large as a slut, golddigger, whore...yada yada yada...because my name came out because the rapist was famous.

And claim rape rather than admit I cheated? Get the eff out. Have you seen how rape victims are treated in this society? Just read this thread for a refresher course.

NOTHING my parents could dish out could ever compete with being forever branded as the woman who falsely accused Rapey Heisman Winner as rapist. My parents' punishment would have a limit. Society's would dog me the rest of my life. As it will hers until Winston's fame fades.

[SoonerForLife92]

I can only speak for myself, but I would much rather subject myself to my parents' disapproval/punishment than be branded by society at large as a slut, golddigger, whore...yada yada yada...because my name came out because the rapist was famous.

And claim rape rather than admit I cheated? Get the eff out. Have you seen how rape victims are treated in this society? Just read this thread for a refresher course.

NOTHING my parents could dish out could ever compete with being forever branded as the woman who falsely accused Rapey Heisman Winner as rapist. My parents' punishment would have a limit. Society's would dog me the rest of my life. As it will hers until Winston's fame fades.


She accused him before Winston was anything close to famous. Your point is moot.

[SanDiegoSoonerGal]

SIAP. Back to the original thread question.

http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/openforum/article/Jameis-Winston-and-the-integrity-of-the-Heisman-5073112.php

So even if it was consensual:

"But we also need to distinguish between the legal case against Winston and the question of "integrity," to quote the Heisman Trust. By the seventh-largest margin in football history, sportswriters just voted to give the Heisman Trophy to a man who - by the admission of his own roommate - routinely brings women to his apartment to have sex with both of them, one after the other."

Seriously, y'all that are saying that even if it was all consensual it doesn't speak to his integrity...one question:

If this was your son, would you claim he's a man of integrity?

[SanDiegoSoonerGal]

She accused him before Winston was anything close to famous. Your point is moot.

OK. You're correct about that. I forgot.

So as far as I'm concerned that gives her even less motive to falsely claim rape.

Why should she? Sorry if this has already been addressed, still catching up on the case.

[SanDiegoSoonerGal]

I understand it just fine. She did not want to go through with pressing chargers, her family coerced her into it. From what I have read about the reported rape kit that took place (others have claimed the police mistreated the case, but I have only heard that from the accuser's attorney and there has yet to be evidence for that in itself, maybe I need to just research more but I'm about done caring) there was no drugs in her system and she had a blood alcohol level of .04, meaning it would have been .10 at the time, hardly black out drunk when that is barely over the legal driving limit of .08.

Until I see actual proof otherwise, she lied about being hit really hard over the head, she lied about being drugged, and she is lying about the drunken mistake that she made.

I'm still catching up on the case, so would you please point me to your sources that her family coerced her into pressing charges, and the official results of her BAC tests?

Also the so-called "date rape" drug rohypnol dissipates from the system within 24 hours--so was she tested for drugs within that timeframe?

Still catching up on the case--sources for key info welcome. Thanks.

[SoonerForLife92]

SIAP. Back to the original thread question.

http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/openforum/article/Jameis-Winston-and-the-integrity-of-the-Heisman-5073112.php

So even if it was consensual:

"But we also need to distinguish between the legal case against Winston and the question of "integrity," to quote the Heisman Trust. By the seventh-largest margin in football history, sportswriters just voted to give the Heisman Trophy to a man who - by the admission of his own roommate - routinely brings women to his apartment to have sex with both of them, one after the other."

Seriously, y'all that are saying that even if it was all consensual it doesn't speak to his integrity...one question:

If this was your son, would you claim he's a man of integrity?

Well you have a point. But that also goes towards the fact Manziel should have never won it either then. Having sex with a girl and passing her to your buddy is disgusting, but in my personal opinion that says more about the integrity of any girl who would be willing to do that (not to try and turn around your statement.).

Me personally, I never said I thought Jameis should win the heisman, or that I even like the guy. I just think he was falsely accused specifically from the evidence I have seen. But hey who is to say Bradford didn't also do this kind of thing and just lied all the time and came off as a morally perceft guy. I mean I never believed Tebow was a virgin when he said that, they are college guys I mean come on. Sadly we will never know. We might think Winston was an upstanding guy and would have never known about his sexual endeavors with his roomate if this case didn't happen.

Also remember when they awarded the heisman to a horrible person who bought a stolen laptop at the university of florida and threw it out of a window somehow thinking in his tiny mind that would help him? I guess that proves the original point of this thread though.

[SicEmBaylor]

My father was on a jury in the early 80's where this happened, it made it all the way to the point of seating a jury before she told the prosecutor that basically her father had caught her with someone so she claimed rape. Charges were dismissed.
Evil ****.

[SoonerForLife92]

I'm still catching up on the case, so would you please point me to your sources that her family coerced her into pressing charges, and the official results of her BAC tests?

Also the so-called "date rape" drug rohypnol dissipates from the system within 24 hours--so was she tested for drugs within that timeframe?

Still catching up on the case--sources for key info welcome. Thanks.

I'm too lazy ha. If you google it then it will be on the first page of articles/sites. Or if you google what I stated exactly then you will also find it. I asked people on this thread to provide me with the info about the evidence and rape kit being wrongly handled by police and they never did so sorry that I'm kind of reciprocating that on you. But the info I am talking about can be found through 5 seconds of google searching and is backed by the police, rather then by only the accuser's attorney.

Also you made a good point in that it's even more reason to doubt she would want to put herself through that. However I personally believe, through her lies and story changes, and hearing about how she is (was) in a group in a sorority that called themsleves the cleat chasers, that she cheated on her boyfriend Jamal (a football player from another school) and knew he would find out. Or she just felt so bad about doing it but is not a very bright person, so told her closest friends and family she was raped instead of she cheated on her boyfriend . Then they pushed her into filing charges even though she didn't want to (that part could be speculation though I do not remember the credibilty of where I read that from.)

But hey the accuser's attorny wants an investigation of the police that handled the rape kit, claiming they mishandled the evidence, so if it turns out that they did and she could have had drugs in her system I will admit I was wrong and there is no way of knowing if he raped her or not.

Also from what I have read on an espn article, the rape kit was taken much less then 24 hours after the alleged event.

[SanDiegoSoonerGal]

Well you have a point. But that also goes towards the fact Manziel should have never won it either then. Having sex with a girl and passing her to your buddy is disgusting, but in my personal opinion that says more about the integrity of any girl who would be willing to do that (not to try and turn around your statement.).



Why? All three of them are engaging in consensual, casual sex. Why does that say more about the girl's integrity? Goose, gander.

What if it were a man who had sex with one girl and then had sex with her friend? Would that say more about his integrity than theirs?

Also regarding your other posts: a rape kit doesn't by definition include blood testing for drugs/alcohol.

[olevetonahill]

Yall act like Drankin an Whorin is a BAD thing. :tongue:

[BoulderSooner79]

She accused him before Winston was anything close to famous. Your point is moot.

That is not correct. The recruiting battle between Bama and FSU for Winston was very well known in college football circles and certainly around Tallahassee and Tuscaloosa. Not the national level of famous Winston has now, but how many people around Norman knew who AD was after he signed but before he played?

Note: I don't believe either side and I can accept the fact that I will never have enough information to know what really happened.

[SoonerForLife92]

Why? All three of them are engaging in consensual, casual sex. Why does that say more about the girl's integrity? Goose, gander.

What if it were a man who had sex with one girl and then had sex with her friend? Would that say more about his integrity than theirs?

Also regarding your other posts: a rape kit doesn't by definition include blood testing for drugs/alcohol.


In my opinion yes it would say more about the guys integrity in that situation. But it would still compromise ALL of their integrity like I stated in my post. Integrity and morals are subjective, I have my opinion on it and you have yours.

Also I do not know the exact specifics about how a rape kit is performed but why wouldnt they test for drugs? Especially in this case with the girl claiming she didnt remember anything after taking a drink. And everything reported short of the accuser's attorney still claims her BAC was taken as well as a toxicology for drugs less then 24 hours after the alledged event.

[SoonerForLife92]

That is not correct. The recruiting battle between Bama and FSU for Winston was very well known in college football circles and certainly around Tallahassee and Tuscaloosa. Not the national level of famous Winston has now, but how many people around Norman knew who AD was after he signed but before he played?

Note: I don't believe either side and I can accept the fact that I will never have enough information to know what really happened.

That still does not make him close to famous just because some college football fans who follow recruiting knew of his top recruit status, but you have a point. (Still this would not even be close to enough fame for her to be considersd a gold digger or desperate for fame as some have absurdly claimed that's why she accused him)

Ill never truly know what happened either but I still have my opinion on it from everything I have read that has been reported from media outlets.

[BoulderSooner79]

That still does not make him close to famous just because some college football fans who follow recruiting knew of his top recruit status, but you have a point. (Still this would not even be close to enough fame for her to be considersd a gold digger or desperate for fame as some have absurdly claimed that's why she accused him)

Ill never truly know what happened either but I still have my opinion on it from everything I have read that has been reported from media outlets.

Exactly! Your opinion is based on what has filtered through the media and I personally don't trust it. When I say I don't believe either of them, I should have said *either of their lawyers*, who control most the information flow. Truth is not relevant to lawyers - they are paid to win, not get at the truth. They use facts where it suits the end goal and facts can be "spun" and more importantly, omitted. Not a knock on lawyers, that just the way our system works.

[SoonerForLife92]

Exactly! Your opinion is based on what has filtered through the media and I personally don't trust it. When I say I don't believe either of them, I should have said *either of their lawyers*, who control most the information flow. Truth is not relevant to lawyers - they are paid to win, not get at the truth. They use facts where it suits the end goal and facts can be "spun" and more importantly, omitted. Not a knock on lawyers, that just the way our system works.

Well you are definitely right that the media can twist it however they want, and I'm sure especially espn and other sports media have the players best interest. But from what I have read, not just on sports sites, the police have backed up the claims made by jameis' lawyer. The accuser's lawyer wants an internal investigation so if it is proven that the precint mishandled the evidence and did mot do a full toxicology, I will immediately change my mind to thinking winston is guilty.

Back on topic of the integrity issue of the entire thread, I still can't believe they awarded it to Newton after buying the stolen laptop and throwing it out of a window. Guess that proves the heisman is all about on field performance and just a popularity contest these days..