Gray shirting?

[achiro]

Someone explain this to me please? Especially faninama's quote.

Let Saban come to UT. There is no gray shirting in the B12 and he will hate the meddling boosters!


Totally agree. Bama oversigns the equivalent of an additional recruiting class every 4 years.

[badger]

A few years ago, ESPN did an OTL investigation into the prevalence of grayshirting in the SEC. In a nutshell, grayshirting is when a committed recruit has his scholarship withheld until the next semester/next schoolyear, but cannot participate in athletic activities (unlike redshirting, where Trevor Knight destroyed our defense while impersonating Johnny Football before the Cotton Bowl) and do not have a scholarship. They can enroll in school and get a year/semester, but they pay their own way.

[dwarthog]

If you fish, look at it like stringer sorting to a degree. But Bama actually has more "fish" than allowed by the limit and hides the extras by them not actually being on scholarships.... At least that is the accusations being levied against them.

[badger]

Here's the OTL report (http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=5935634)

Here's an SI report from 2011 on oversigning/grayshirting in the SEC (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/stewart_mandel/05/19/sec-oversigning/)

To the SEC's discredit, the football coaches all voted to continue having no limits in signing practices, but to the SEC's credit, their college presidents overruled them (http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/03/sec-presidents-vote-to-reduce-signing-limit-to-25-nick-saban-blows-a-gasket/), seeing what an embarrassing issue it had become.

Nick Saban was furious:


“You all are creating a bad problem for everybody. You’re going to mess up kids’ opportunities by doing what you’re doing. You think you’re helping ‘em but you’re really hurting ‘em. It took one case where somebody didn’t get the right opportunity. You need to take the other 100 cases where somebody got an opportunity"

[PrideMom]

A lot like the "WALK-ONS" for Nebraska. I remember a key receiver (or was it a running back?) for them that walked all the way from Florida to play for Nebraska. Why would anyone leave Florida for Nebraska?

[badger]

To SEC's further discredit, the problem is still there:

According to ESPN, Tennessee has 34 commitments for their 2014 class. Here's some other recent numbers:

SEC in 2013:
Florida: 30
Ole Miss: 28
LSU: 27
Texas A&M: 32
Georgia: 33
Vandy: 26


Before anyone tries to accuse OU and Stoops of doing the same thing, here's OU's recent recruiting class numbers:
2013: 25
2012: 26
2011: 17
2010: 29
2009: 24
2008: 21
2007: 21
2006: 27

I think the reason we go over 25 some years is midseason enrollments, etc., but it's clear from looking at the numbers we average out to 25 and never go ridiculously over (like 30s range)

[picasso]

Dirty.

[badger]

Holy sh!t it's worse than it was before. BLUEshirting?! (http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/college-recruiting/2013/dec/09/sec-issues-statement-about-over-signing-loopholes/)


The second possible loophole has to do with “blue-shirting.” Here’s Woodberry’s explanation: “Officially, a player arrives in the summer as a walk-on. Once football practice begins, he’s awarded a scholarship. The school is allowed to count the scholarship forward — against the 2015 class — but the player can play immediately. There’s a big catch: The student-athlete may not have been recruited, as defined by NCAA bylaws. That means no official visit to campus, no in-home visits from coaches, no signed National Letter of Intent or athletic aid.”

The link goes into more details on how Tennessee is getting "freebies" and finding new ways to go over the 25-player limit. I don't expect them or anyone else to get away with this.

[Mjcpr]

So why is this dirty? Doesn't the committed athlete have the option to sign somewhere else that is going to give him a scholarship? I assume if he is committed to Alabama, he has a plethora of other offers and if he decides to stick with Alabama and pay his own way then that's his call.

[badger]

So why is this dirty? Doesn't the committed athlete have the option to sign somewhere else that is going to give him a scholarship? I assume if he is committed to Alabama, he has a plethora of other offers and if he decides to stick with Alabama and pay his own way then that's his call.

OK, let's say you're at Disneyland and there are going to be lines to get on rides everywhere, especially the more popular ones. So, you hop in line to Space Mountain first thing in the morning... but are told right when to you get to the front of the line that there's no more room and won't be until tomorrow.

So, you try to get on another ride. Splash Mountain? Full, try again tomorrow. Star Wars? Full, try again tomorrow. Doesn't anyone have any room left for you to ride?

Alas, the only place left with room for you is the talking Abraham Lincoln robot.

[rock on sooner]

So why is this dirty? Doesn't the committed athlete have the option to sign somewhere else that is going to give him a scholarship? I assume if he is committed to Alabama, he has a plethora of other offers and if he decides to stick with Alabama and pay his own way then that's his call.

Some of these kids are "marginal" but are led to believe they'll make
the cut. More than a few, I'm told, didn't make the "cut" when a better
athlete comes along or the marginals do some little something to get into
trouble or an injury and their schollie goes away....really all about the
winning at all costs, including dumping on some kids....

[Mjcpr]

Some of these kids are "marginal" but are led to believe they'll make
the cut. More than a few, I'm told, didn't make the "cut" when a better
athlete comes along or the marginals do some little something to get into
trouble or an injury and their schollie goes away....really all about the
winning at all costs, including dumping on some kids....

This I have heard, getting rid of marginal players that don't turn out as good as they hoped and using their scholarships for new players which I agree is an advantage over teams that don't do that. And, that's not an option for the player like choosing a different school. Shouldn't this practice show up in those "scorecards" that were rolled out a few years ago where, I thought, could result in punishment for the school (by the NCAA?) if their scores were really poor? I remember players leaving the program, transferring, going pro, etc, all contributed to these scores.

[cvsooner]

Here's the OTL report (http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=5935634)

Here's an SI report from 2011 on oversigning/grayshirting in the SEC (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/stewart_mandel/05/19/sec-oversigning/)

To the SEC's discredit, the football coaches all voted to continue having no limits in signing practices, but to the SEC's credit, their college presidents overruled them (http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/03/sec-presidents-vote-to-reduce-signing-limit-to-25-nick-saban-blows-a-gasket/), seeing what an embarrassing issue it had become.

Nick Saban was furious:

Saban sounds like a politician. Rich people are only motivated when you give them money. Poor people are only motivated when you take money away from them. What he really means is, "You all are creating a bad problem for {me}. You're going to mess up {my team and my won-loss record} by doing what you're doing."

[rock on sooner]

What should happen and does happen where the NCAA is involved is
two different stories. As I understand it, those scorecards are to deal
with the student part of student-athlete and athletic departments have
worked around it somehow. This issue is bigger in basketball than in
football...

[badger]

The schools need to have some leverage themselves, since verbal commitments are non-binding for both the athletes and the schools. Players routinely pull the hat switch trick on signing day while giggling about clever and funny they were. Ooo, they fooled you!

At the same time, players are routinely (especially in the SEC) left high and dry when they think they have a scholarship offer, but instead end up grayshirting or getting their offer rescinded.

The solution? Early signing period. You want to go there, they say they want you to go there, sign early, you're both committed. None of this verbal-my-junior-year-then-wait crap.

[SoonerMarkVA]

So why is this dirty? Doesn't the committed athlete have the option to sign somewhere else that is going to give him a scholarship? I assume if he is committed to Alabama, he has a plethora of other offers and if he decides to stick with Alabama and pay his own way then that's his call.

Another factor is that scholarships are only 1-year commitments. So, hypothetically, you grayshirt 10 players. Then, of the players with scholarships, you cut loose any that have season-ending injuries or are riding the pine a little too comfortably. Those 10 get booted next year, and you give the 10 grayshirts their schollys. You're massively upping the odds of filtering out just the best players, and in your wake you're cutting loose players who, at least at OU, would have otherwise had a full commitment even though they got hurt, or didn't pan out as the quality of player you'd evaluated them to be.

[Soonerjeepman]

Another factor is that scholarships are only 1-year commitments. So, hypothetically, you grayshirt 10 players. Then, of the players with scholarships, you cut loose any that have season-ending injuries or are riding the pine a little too comfortably. Those 10 get booted next year, and you give the 10 grayshirts their schollys. You're massively upping the odds of filtering out just the best players, and in your wake you're cutting loose players who, at least at OU, would have otherwise had a full commitment even though they got hurt, or didn't pan out as the quality of player you'd evaluated them to be.

exactly...honestly I don't have a problem with pulling a scholarship if the kid does something wrong or continues to "not work hard"...course that is very subjective to a degree. Especially knowing they are really only 1 yr scholarships. BUT dropping them because injury or "a better" player comes along the next yr...so sorry, you're stuck coach/school.

[jkjsooner]

A lot like the "WALK-ONS" for Nebraska. I remember a key receiver (or was it a running back?) for them that walked all the way from Florida to play for Nebraska. Why would anyone leave Florida for Nebraska?

Big difference. A lot of Nebraska's walk-ones were on some type of academic scholarship given out on a county by county basis by the state. At least that was what was alleged.

The other difference is that kids who a grey shirted are basically lied to on signing day. They're told they have a scholarship but find out later they don't.

The net effect is the same as far as the team goes but only one is screwing over the kid.

[yermom]

except the replacement player can play right away. the booted player has to sit out a year when they transfer

[jkjsooner]

I have one question. If you sign a LOI and then in August you find out there isn't a scholarship for you, can you sign with another FBS school without sitting out a year?

I assumed you had to sit out a year but something I read recently left me the opposite impression. Of course this is where Badger's analogy comes into play. Even if you don't have to sit out there aren't a lot of options left in August...

[badger]

exactly...honestly I don't have a problem with pulling a scholarship if the kid does something wrong or continues to "not work hard"...course that is very subjective to a degree. Especially knowing they are really only 1 yr scholarships. BUT dropping them because injury or "a better" player comes along the next yr...so sorry, you're stuck coach/school.

One thing that SEC programs (ok, so I just heard about it happening at Saban's Bammer, but it likely happened elsewhere) was that when players performances didn't live up to their recruiting hype or they just weren't going to contribute, the program would declare that they were medically unable to continue, so that they could stay on scholarship (without counting against the 85 limit), but never play college football again.


A lot of Nebraska's walk-ones were on some type of academic scholarship given out on a county by county basis by the state. At least that was what was alleged.
Is that how they got their record number of Academic All Americans or whatever they had plastered all over their stadium?


the booted player has to sit out a year when they transfer
The solution here would be for the NCAA to have an appeals process to allow immediate playing for transfers. It might be a longshot, but they've made exceptions in extreme cases before... when Bammer went on bowl ban in the early aughts, when Penn State had their awful situation a few years ago, etc.

[badger]

I have one question. If you sign a LOI and then in August you find out there isn't a scholarship for you, can you sign with another FBS school without sitting out a year?

Yes, there have been cases where players not on scholarship have been allowed to immediately transfer and play at a new school. I am not sure if this also applies to players that have been dumped by their previous programs

For example... remember that awesome recruiting class that Kelvin Sampson got us before he got hired by Indiana? One guy went to Texas, one guy went to Villanova, and we had to face both of them the very season they were supposed to start playing for us. The key is that schools release them from their LOI

[Soonerjeepman]

One thing that SEC programs (ok, so I just heard about it happening at Saban's Bammer, but it likely happened elsewhere) was that when players performances didn't live up to their recruiting hype or they just weren't going to contribute, the program would declare that they were medically unable to continue, so that they could stay on scholarship (without counting against the 85 limit), but never play college football again.

which if proven false should be a huge penalty...

[badger]

which if proven false should be a huge penalty...

I suppose its all in the eye of the beholder. There was a Poke player that sustained a spinal injury from a weight room accident, then came back and caught a pass the next season. The coaches were reportedly so afraid that another hit would leave him paralyzed that they wanted to medical scholarship him. Instead, he transferred to keep playing... and then, most recently, complained to Sports Illustrated for their Poke expose (http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/former-osu-player-in-si-story-explains-what-he-wants/article_d05575c7-5c25-5f56-8de5-079e6b290c4e.html).

I doubt that the NCAA has the time or resources to check up on ex-players like private investigators checking up on workers out on disability leave.

[Scott D]

What should happen and does happen where the NCAA is involved is
two different stories. As I understand it, those scorecards are to deal
with the student part of student-athlete and athletic departments have
worked around it somehow. This issue is bigger in basketball than in
football...

That's because one and done has turned the basketball scorecard into a joke.

[Eielson]

Here are some interesting numbers:

Number of Texas scholarships offered from 2007-2010: 86
Number of Alabama scholarships offered from 2007-2010: 113

This number should be around 85, because that's the max number of scholarships. OU's number was 94, which is fine. That just means that 9 guys didn't stay four years. That's not a big number when you consider JUCOs, people declaring early, people who transfer for legitimate reasons (family, lost QB battle, and basically anything other than being run off), people getting arrested for jerking off in public, people just choosing to leave the game, etc. Alabama, on the other hand, gave out 113 offers. That's 28 over, so unless they had a LOT of JUCOs (like K-State) it's clear that something is going on there.

To understand what's happening, here's a great example. A few years ago, Nutt (Ole Miss) signed 38 guys despite already having 64 guys on scholarship. 85 is the max, so he had to find a way to get rid of 17 guys. He basically ran off 17 guys that he felt were underachieving or he just didn't want. There is now a rule that limits you to signing 28 guys, but there is still plenty of room to work with. That's the kind of thing the entire SEC does on a regular basis.

Check this link out if you're interested:

http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/2010/05/06/2006-2010-recruiting-numbers/

Basically, the SEC is using about 3 or 4 extra scholarships a year in comparison to the Big XII, and there's an even bigger gap in comparison to conferences like the Big 10. Think of it like this. OU or Texas might have 5 or 6 seniors that aren't regularly contributing on 1st/2nd team offense or defense. OU and Texas might have kept those guys around, and got nothing from them, but schools like Alabama and Auburn would have ran them off, and used those scholarships on other people.

This leads to an interesting question. Texas only gave out 86 scholarships over that 4 year span. Are they okay with upping that number by about 30 (7 a year)?

[badger]

This leads to an interesting question. Texas only gave out 86 scholarships over that 4 year span. Are they okay with upping that number by about 30 (7 a year)?

Are you asking if Texas is willing to bend the rules in order to win more football games, because if so, we all know the answer to that question.

If the deciders in Texas (including Governor Aggie) have any say, they will probably do as much as they can to meddle and keep UT grounded

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

from 2009

http://mgoblog.com/diaries/ncaa-scholarship-limit-review

[fadada1]

Having knowledge of the NCAA manual, I can tell you there a ways around everything except murder... and even that may be sidestepped if you have the right lawyers/compliance personnel.

The whole practice of "grey shirting" is someone's clever way of interpreting what is said in the manual. Unfortunately, the practice was probably picked up on by another school, and has now gone too far. Get someone who is good at interpreting the rules, and someone who is good at arguing the rules, and you can do some very shady things.

Looking at rules on official visits, it would appear that recruits can do nothing more than visit campus and have lunch in the cafeteria. The (almost) reality is that with interpretation and clever distribution of money, recruits could return home with a new Ferrari.

[jkjsooner]

which if proven false should be a huge penalty...

There should be a clearing house where some physician not associated with the program has to declare the kid medically unable to play.

And that wouldn't be because he lost 2 tenths of a second after his ACL tear.

[Eielson]

Are you asking if Texas is willing to bend the rules in order to win more football games, because if so, we all know the answer to that question.

Texas has had a few incidents, but in comparison to the SEC schools, Texas' program is nowhere near dirty. That might be part of why they're struggling, though.

[jkjsooner]

Here's my solution.

1. Increase the scholarship limit from 85 to 100.

2. When a player is brought in under scholarship, that scholarship is locked up (can't be reused) for the player's full eligibility period. For freshman that would be 4 years. Sophomores, 3. Etc.

3. If a player gets hurt, the scholarship can be freed up as long as a neutral party agrees that the player can no longer play the sport safely.

4. If a kid redshirts then his scholarship remains locked up for one additional year.

5. A kid could still be removed from scholarship but that scholarship is not available until the kid would have graduated.

Consequences:

1. This wouldn't hurt the smaller schools as much as you might think. Sure, the bigger schools would offer more scholarships but most wouldn't have much more than 85 players.

2. Schools might be a little more selective on who they offer and take fewer risks on the problematic kids knowing they can't just run them off without consequences.

3. Coaches would complain that that doesn't give them enough wiggle room but the NCAA would just say that's why you have the addition 15 scholarships.

4. Saban would find a way to get his underperformers hurt in practice to free up that scholarship. ;)

[Eielson]

I think the simple thing would be to keep the scholarship limit at 85, but enforce a 4-year scholarship limit of 100 (with exceptions for JUCOs and things of that nature). That gives you about 15 scholarships to work with. That could be abused a little, but not too badly.

[jkjsooner]

I think the simple thing would be to keep the scholarship limit at 85, but enforce a 4-year scholarship limit of 100 (with exceptions for JUCOs and things of that nature). That gives you about 15 scholarships to work with. That could be abused a little, but not too badly.

That would work too. You can argue if a school is losing more than 15 players over a 4 year period then they're doing something wrong.

I do think you would need some kind of exclusion for (real) injuries.

On second thought, isn't that supposed to be what we have? You can't bring in more than 25 a year.

[8timechamps]

Yes, there have been cases where players not on scholarship have been allowed to immediately transfer and play at a new school. I am not sure if this also applies to players that have been dumped by their previous programs

For example... remember that awesome recruiting class that Kelvin Sampson got us before he got hired by Indiana? One guy went to Texas, one guy went to Villanova, and we had to face both of them the very season they were supposed to start playing for us. The key is that schools release them from their LOI

It happens, but it's rare.

Once a kid signs a LOI, then he is locked in with that school. If the school decides they don't have a scholarship for the player, he's SOL. They can apply to the NCAA for a waiver if they can find a school willing to take them, but it's very rare for the NCAA to grant a waiver in enough time for the kid to be able to practice/play with his 'new' school.

[8timechamps]

There is nothing "against the rules" when it comes to gray shirting. In some cases, it works out fine, and both the player and the school benefit. However, most cases don't work out "fine".

As an example, let's say a player commits to a school and signs an LOI. Then, the head coach of the school tells the kid "hey, we don't have room for you, but if you wait a year, we'll have a scholarship available". So, the kid decides to wait, effectively "gray shirting". Now, the kid can't participate in any team activity, and he gets no financial help for school (which means he may, or may not become a student). Let's say that this kid is lucky, and doesn't injur himself while trying to stay in shape for the next year. The next year rolls around, and guess what? The coach has found a player that is just a bit better and tell's the kid "thanks, but no thanks".

Does that break the rules? No. Is it morally sickening? You bet.

Now, if the kid were to get injured, he's really screwed, because the chances that he can play anywhere are gone. So, like I said, it works out for some kids, but it's a very risky proposition, and one I'm happy Stoops doesn't employ.

[Soonerwake]

I've heard people say that "surely that doesn't happen because those schools would get bad reputations and kids would stop signing with them". While that sounds reasonable and does happen from time to time, the big football factories are very adept at selling "that will never happen to you". And, most of these 18 year old guys have people in their ear telling them how good they are, that they will be a star, that they will be the next AD, RGIII, etc. It happens every stinking year, and the problem is that the public doesn't hear about this stuff or minimizes it thinking that it doesn't happen at their school. The whole thing is becoming almost sickening.

And, don't get me started on basketball...

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Here's my solution.

1. Increase the scholarship limit from 85 to 100.

2. When a player is brought in under scholarship, that scholarship is locked up (can't be reused) for the player's full eligibility period. For freshman that would be 4 years. Sophomores, 3. Etc.

3. If a player gets hurt, the scholarship can be freed up as long as a neutral party agrees that the player can no longer play the sport safely.

4. If a kid redshirts then his scholarship remains locked up for one additional year.

5. A kid could still be removed from scholarship but that scholarship is not available until the kid would have graduated.

Consequences:

1. This wouldn't hurt the smaller schools as much as you might think. Sure, the bigger schools would offer more scholarships but most wouldn't have much more than 85 players.

2. Schools might be a little more selective on who they offer and take fewer risks on the problematic kids knowing they can't just run them off without consequences.

3. Coaches would complain that that doesn't give them enough wiggle room but the NCAA would just say that's why you have the addition 15 scholarships.

4. Saban would find a way to get his underperformers hurt in practice to free up that scholarship. ;)

The problem with your system is that it totally screws walkons and jucos. It also doesn't solve the kicker/punter problem (where most schools make them walkon).

[Sabanball]

The suggestion that Bama widely uses this practice is like trying to say that Bob meant all SEC defenses suck. It's an old canard that really has been worn out and has no merit. It HAS been rarely and selectively used, and was used even before Saban got here.

For starters, no one gray- shirted at Bama this past yr. That being said, it is not illegal OR unethical IF it is mutually agreed upon by the coaching staff and the player involved. Sometimes, like the last time it was used here, it is because of an injury situation and allows for a player to properly rehab. Other times, it simply is a way to give a kid a chance to come through your program when otherwise he could not have done so. Athletic schollies are ONE year deals.

If you don't like it, then make it against the rules. Your coach and AD have a say in the matter. Otherwise, coaches from all around the country I might add, are going to continue to make use of it when they feel that it is necessary.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

The suggestion that Bama widely uses this practice is like trying to say that Bob meant all SEC defenses suck. It's an old canard that really has been worn out and has no merit. It HAS been rarely and selectively used, and was used even before Saban got here.

For starters, no one gray- shirted at Bama this past yr. That being said, it is not illegal OR unethical IF it is mutually agreed upon by the coaching staff and the player involved. Sometimes, like the last time it was used here, it is because of an injury situation and allows for a player to properly rehab. Other times, it simply is a way to give a kid a chance to come through your program when otherwise he could not have done so. Athletic schollies are ONE year deals.

If you don't like it, then make it against the rules. Your coach and AD have a say in the matter. Otherwise, coaches from all around the country I might add, are going to continue to make use of it when they feel that it is necessary.

For purposes of this board, think of grayshirting and oversigning as synonyms. Basically, if you sign more than 100 in a 4 year period then you run afoul of what this board would consider "grayshirting".

[arcman46]

And, don't get me started on basketball...

Basketball has become a joke. Between high schooler's going directly to the NBA; one and done seasons; a 64 team playoff that is exciting to watch but has essentially destroyed the regular season; not including the joke that is the NBA, it is barely worth watching.

[badger]

For starters, no one gray- shirted at Bama this past yr.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA! (http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2012/02/darius_philon_was_more_committ.html)

Where did Darius Philon go after putting his Alabama hat on during signing day ceremonies (http://videos.al.com/mobile-press-register/2012/02/vigor_defensive_lineman_darius.html)?

In a nutshell, Saban didn't have any grayshirts this past year because he pulled the rug out before signing day this time instead of after, giving players like Darius Philon a chance to escape (to schools they never even took visits too because they thought they were sooooo committed to Bama and vise versa).